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Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub

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Revision as of 21:53, 13 February 2013 by (talk) (Wuerttemburg)
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The Travellers' pub - your watering hole on Wikitravel

The Travellers' pub is where Wikitravellers of all languages get to together to talk about Wikitravel, and where you can ask for help if you're confused, lost, afraid, tired or annoyed by Wikitravel. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

If you have question about travel, not the website, try the Wikitravel Extra Forum.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the technical requests page instead.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!


There are archives available for this page. Please do not edit the archives - instead, start a new thread.

Renaming a file name and caption

I have uploaded a file, and accidentally it had the wrong name and caption (should be Underground, instead of Underwater). I have been going crazing trying to find out how it's possible to rename the name and the caption. I follow help link to help link and so far nothing. After reading the help info, what is was able to find out is that only admin, file movers, and a few other groups can do it. Since I don't have that op right, I wasn't able to find out: who should I contact in order to request that file and caption rename. Does anyone how to help me? And I think it would be helpful if that info is not more clear on help documentation.

Thank you for your post. I am an admin here and I would gladly help you. Please let me know how you would like to name the file and I will do it for you. Is that a file you are referring to [3]? The best way to ask for help on Wikitravel is simply to leave a message on the Travellers' Pub, just as you did. I've been checking Pub regularly and I'm doing my best to solve all the problems. You can also contact me on my User Page. Thanks! IBAlex 12:35, 11 December 2012 (EST)
Yes, it's that image. Thanks, IBAlex.
That image I used in [4], the link must also be updated. I don't known if you can also do that, so the broken link has less lifetime. Since the place where I'm now, there isn't always power nor internet.
I managed to change only the caption from "Underwater" to "Underground" but I'm unable to change the name of the file. What you can do is to upload a new version of the file by clicking here [5].
The link is not broken because the name of the page you uploaded the picture on is Sabang (Palawan) and not just Sabang. I hope this helps. Cheers, IBAlex 17:22, 13 December 2012 (EST)
Finally I arrive into a place where internet is fast enough to upload a new file. I uploaded [6], and updated the link in Sabang (Palawan).
So the [7] file is no longer needed, is there any possibility that you can delete it?
Sure! I just deleted it. Cheers, IBAlex 11:06, 21 December 2012 (EST)

Right to vanish policy

I feel that we lack a right to vanish policy. The meatball version is to be found here. The Wikipedia version is here. Suggestion: import the current Wikipedia version. Riggwelter 09:46, 12 September 2012 (EDT)

I agree.
Perhaps you could plunge forward and create one in your own User namespace and then give us the link so we can ratify it (or not) by consensus? --Alice 21:40, 18 November 2012 (EST)

:ja Thumbnail error?

It seems that we cannot display the shared image when we want to use them as thumbnail images. See ja:クアラルンプール#列車で. I tried several times and it doesn't work, unfortunately. It happens so frequently these days.--Shoestring 17:14, 12 September 2012 (EDT)

Thank you -- I have reported this to Tech.--IBobi talk email 17:49, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
It still doesn't work (it seems that the system or database is very much unstable.). When I try to use the image, it often displays the error messages such as "サムネイルの作成中にエラーが発生しました:convert: unable to open image `/var/www/wikitravel/upload/shared/thumb/e/ec/Gondola_cable,_Langkawi,_Kedah,_Malaysia.JPG/160px-Gondola_cable,_Langkawi,_Kedah,_Malaysia.JPG': Permission denied @ blob.c/OpenBlob/2480.", instead (see also here). 'Seems not always happens, but happens so frequently.
Anyway, I am very much in trouble for about a week and I think this is an urgent matter.--Shoestring 12:55, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
Edit: Of the two reports, the latter has fixed automatically and the display is now back to its normal. --Shoestring 09:10, 16 September 2012 (EDT)

Finnish Wikitravel need some help

Hey, we have a problem in Finnish Wikitravel. We have some IP user ([8] & [9]) making lot of trash by spamming articles from Finnish Wikipedia and Swedish Wikipedia via Google Translate... There are no active admins in Finnish version of Wikitravel. So, could someone come to help us and delete articles from these categories: [10] & [11]. Roquai 12:56, 9 October 2012 (EDT)

Is it all from that same IP?--IBobi talk email 13:25, 9 October 2012 (EDT)
All from IP & IP Same person. Roquai 13:44, 9 October 2012 (EDT)
We will block the IPs and revert the spam pages. Thanks for keeping an eye out! Have you considered being an admin for the Finnish site?--IBobi talk email 13:46, 9 October 2012 (EDT)
I am quite sporadic visitor and contributor in Finnish Wikitravel. So I think it would be not good idea to be admin for the Finnish project. But, thanks for cleaning ”our” project. :) Roquai 14:19, 9 October 2012 (EDT)

We have still almost 300 pages waiting for deletion in Finnish Wikitravel: [12]. Almost all of those are made by the same IP... Roquai 09:13, 13 October 2012 (EDT)

There is the same problem in Spanish, Hungarian & [13], Italian, Polish Wikitravel... Roquai 11:58, 15 October 2012 (EDT)

Finnish and Spanish are done! - IBcash 15:26, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
The same user is also vandalizing the French Wikitravel. Could you also block him there please? sumone10154(talk) 22:39, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
Done. Thank you.--IBobi talk email 14:29, 1 November 2012 (EDT)

no noticeboard for admins/sysops?

As there seems to be no noticeboard for admins or sysops on WT/S, I will use this one.

The following pages should be deleted as they are used for spam. --Túrelio 11:18, 12 October 2012 (EDT)

Done! Thank you :) -- IBcash 13:40, 15 October 2012 (EDT)

Travel news

Hello! I would like to call to action all the administrators and contributors on WT. For a long time Wikitravel Travel news[14] have been outdated. It is time to change it and keep the Travel Alerts and Current and upcoming events up-to-date. To achieve that, I need your help. Who is willing to offer his/her help? Thank you! IBAlex 16:47, 29 October 2012 (EDT)

Can't find the link after signing in

I searched for Surat (a city in Gujarat, India), and did some corrections on it without logging in - which means the page exists.

Then when I created a login ID and searched for Surat page, it is nowhere to be found. Why is that so? I know the page exists!

Hello! Is that the page you are referring to? [15]. We have also the whole article on Wikitravel about Surat in case you would like to make some changes there. Please have look [16]. Let me know if it answers your questions. thank you! IBAlex 14:08, 12 November 2012 (EST)


We hired small motorbike in Vang Vieng, Laos from MR TEEP, for 40,000 Kip for the day. We rode to Kaeng Nyui waterfalls, which were 6 Km from town down a bumpy dirt road. We parked the bike next to the ticket kiosk, and when we returned about 30 minutes later, the woman in the kiosk pointed out that our front tyre was flat. She did not speak English, but by gestures offered to phone Mr Teep, which we were grateful for, as our mobiles did not work in Laos. Having spoken to MR TEEP she passed her phone to me, and he explained that he would contact the repair man, who would bring a replacement innertube out and that I would have to pay 50,000 Kip for it. I told him that I had examined the tyre and could see nothing wrong with it and it hopefully only needed pumping up. To which he said that if that was the case, then I would have to pay 2000 or 3000 Kip. The repair man arrived a few minutes later with a sack with a pump and two different size inner tubes and a few tyre levers. He went to speak to the kiosk woman and so I undid his sack and took out the pump. He came across and protested and showed me the new inner tube. I asked how much, and he wrote 50,000 on his hand. I said "No" and attached the pump and pumped up the tyre. I disconnected the pump and listened for air coming out. It seemed OK. So I decided to ride back to the town and check the tyre again then, knowing that I would probably be able to get it pumped up there. I offered the repairman 3000, but he wanted 5000, which I paid him. When we got back to town the tyre was OK, and we realised that the woman at the kiosk must have let the tyre down, so that the repairman could swap a perfectly OK tube for an extortionate charge!!! We used the bike for rest of the day, with no problems. Being in the middle of nowhere without a pump and not speaking the language, most people may well have paid up and been non-the-wiser. I also feel sure that MR TEEP must have been in on it! Otherwise he would have been suspicious of the number of flat tyres being reported to him by the kiosk woman!! Don't hire from MR TEEP and more importantly do not park your bike near the ticket kiosk. Other people had taken their motorbikes nearer to the falls, where there is more parking.

I'm moving this information to en:Vang Vieng discussion page because it will benefit the traveler better over there. Cheers! IBAlex 17:52, 7 January 2013 (EST)

Edit did not save

I recently added a location to Galveston's Do section but when I reloaded the page it was gone.

If you are talking about the page on Wikitravel English, it seems that the edit you did with the Plesure Pier etc. is there, and seems fine to me? --OVK 08:48, 27 December 2012 (EST)

Lucy is not from the northern section of Ethiopia. Please check this fact.

Thank you.

Screwed up Ko Lanta

I mistakenly deleted a large portion of Ko Lanta (everything after "Diving") and now I am having difficulty figuring out how to fix the problem. Can someone help me put the page back as it was on 2012-12-26? -- 21:21, 28 December 2012 (EST)

Looks like you figured it out? Let me know if not!--IBobi talk email 15:43, 3 January 2013 (EST)

Armenia has introduced visa waiver for EU & EEA countries.

Armenia has introduced visa waiver for EU & EEA countries, please update the visa section of this article . Full list of countries whose citizens do not need to obtain entry visas for Armenia are available on Wikipedia here

Thank you!

Please fix typo on the main page

The heading "Antartica" should be "Antarctica". I would fix it but apparently don't have permission to edit. Markoboston 19:05, 1 January 2013 (EST)

Bothered me too -- I just saw your note here but fixed it independently. I won a 5th grade spelling bee getting that extra C in there ;)
As to editing privileges, yes, we do protect the main page due to the potentially huge exposure to vandalism. Hope you understand, and thank you much for letting us know about the error! --IBobi talk email 15:32, 3 January 2013 (EST)

problem with print version of Hanoi, Vietnam page

The Hanoi information does not print properly. Plaese fix. Thanks.

What problem are you having? I just printed it and it came out fine...--IBobi talk email 15:37, 3 January 2013 (EST)

Safety for first year students at UCT any problems as we are in jhb and our son is going to attend cut and we have no immediate family in cape town

We are concerned for our first year going to university of cape town and his physical safety

This is not really a message board type of website; I would suggest perhaps posting your concern on the Discussion page of the Cape Town article and see if anyone responds; alternately, you can view the history of revisions and see if there are any regular local contributors who you could leave a message for on their Talk Pages.--IBobi talk email 14:37, 7 January 2013 (EST)

en:Chiang Dao

I am not impressed. Somebody keeps editing out things, in the Chiang Dao, Thailand page. For example, there are at least 30 resorts and guesthouses in Chiang Dao, most of them a lot better than Nature Home or Chiang Dao Hut. I believe, somebody is maliciously changing previous edits.

I had a look at that and indeed, some of the resorts were deleted. In this case, feel free to contact the user who made the changes by writing on her user Page [17] and asking what was the intention of this edit. I am going to do this right now. If you would like to post more listings on en: Chiang Dao page, please en:Plunge forward. Please keep in mind also our policies.
It is also a good idea to create your own account on Wikitravel because it will give you various benefits:
  1. Ability to communicate with other writers about your edits and travel tips
  2. Ability to turn off advertising in your Account Settings
  3. Credit for your travel writing/edits, which will be attributed to you rather than just an IP address
  4. Your contributions will be more trusted as you become familiar to other Wikitravelers

Last but not least, please remember to sign your posts by writing ~~~~ .I am looking forward to seeing you on Wikitravel! IBAlex 19:32, 8 January 2013 (EST)

Here is the explanation why the previous edits on Chiang Dao page were changed [18]. I hope this helps, IBAlex 19:32, 8 January 2013 (EST)
Hi! I'm the guy who recently consolidated some listing for Chiang Dao. I live down the road from Chiang Dao so I have never been there. Having not been there, I am not qualified to judge local businesses, thus cannot add worthy candidates. I too fear that we are missing some really good ones. If you live in the are, please help me to upgrade our listings. BTW, I never remove an entry unless it is blatent advertising or some other gaming of the system. And when I do remove one, I give an explanation of why. -- 20:00, 8 January 2013 (EST)


Trying to edit and clean up the 'By Bus' information for Jacksonville(Florida). States that "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your edit was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Ransom"

Here is the proposed edit:

  • Greyhound, 10 North Pearl St., 1-877-462-6342, [1]. Greyhound offers service west to Tallahasee and New Orleans, south to Orlando and Miami, and north to Charleston and New York, as well as to regional destinations such as St. Augustine and Lake City. The Jacksonville Greyhound Station is located in the heart of downtown Jacksonville, next to the AT&T Tower. The JTA Skyway Central Station is located across Bay St. (at the rear, south side of the Greyhound station building).
  •, 1-877-462-6342, [2]. Express bus service to/from Atlanta and Orlando. Double Deck Coaches with WiFi, Restrooms, Power Outlets and seats starting at $1.

Any ideas? 18:34, 10 January 2013 (EST)Coloingsigh

Thank you for your message! I'm here ready to help you. Your edits were stopped by our Abuse Filters that are supposed to protect Wikitravel from spamming coming from IP addresses/ new users. Your posts were identified as harmful because you made too many edits per hour. Sorry for that. Your edits are constructive and we highly appreciate your willingness to edit the 'By Bus' Section on Jacksonville. Do you want me to add it or you prefer to add them later on?
It is also a good idea to create your own account on Wikitravel because it will give you various benefits:
  1. Ability to communicate with other writers about your edits and travel tips
  2. Ability to turn off advertising in your Account Settings
  3. Credit for your travel writing/edits, which will be attributed to you rather than just an IP address
  4. Your contributions will be more trusted as you become familiar to other Wikitravelers

I am looking forward to seeing you on Wikitravel! Warm regards, IBAlex 18:43, 10 January 2013 (EST)

Hi IBAlex, thanks so much for the feedback. I'll update the information. Incidentally, I created an account since requesting help and I will use my account going forward. Appreciate the prompt feedback. Coloingsigh

Please add correct image of INDIA map

Jammu& Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh are Integral parts of India . Please visit for more details .


Hi Kapil! Are you reffering to this map? [19]. From what I see there Jammu& Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh are marked as regions that belong to India. Please let me know what you think should be improved. Warm regards, IBAlex 19:25, 21 January 2013 (EST)

I am very new to WT and just trying to add one photo to my contribution. However when I try to follow the upload, I seem to get logged out and am unable to continue. Can anyone help? I was logged in when I started this comment, but now seem to be logged out again! ¬¬¬¬ Hoppy 1320 22nd Jan 2013 I w

Hi Hoppy! I am here, ready to help you! Best way to learn quickly how to navigate on WT is to read our Quick Contribution Guide. You upload pictures to Wikitravel through Wikitravel Shared which is our hub for all the files (pictures, maps) for all language versions of the site. You have to create an account on WT Shared to be able to upload the picture. Here is how to do it [20]. Once you create an account on WT Shared use this page to upload a file. Then you can go to whichever article you want on Wikitravel and put the picture over there. Let me know if everything is clear now.
I am looking forward to seeing a picture from you in Wikitarvel. Warm regards, IBAlex 13:36, 22 January 2013 (EST)
Sadly the link to WikiShared above keeps coming up with 'bad title'. I think there is a problem today with Wikishared. Is there any other way of uploading a photo?¬¬¬¬ Hoppy 0900 EST 23rd Jan 2013
Let's try again [21]. For me everything works. We do upload pictures only through Wikitravel Shared. Keep me posted if you have any problems, thank you! Warm regards, IBAlex 13:38, 23 January 2013 (EST)


1st off old listing for our hotel was full of errors & omissions. It had previous owners cell phone as contact etc. Some one seems to want a false& incorrect listing as opposed to an up to date listing??? What is going on? Myson effa Manager Pemberton Gateway Village Suites

Hello! Sorry to hear that. Everybody can write and post on Wikitravel as the content is user generated (depends on user's knowledge of places). Also, somebody might have created a listing for your hotel and afterwards nobody updated it. What page is this listing posted on? Please feel free to provide correct information and update the listing following our listing's format and guidance. if you need any help, please let me know. Warm regards, IBAlex 13:57, 25 January 2013 (EST)

OpenID don't work

with following error (tested with 3 differents ID provider)

Verification failed Verification of the OpenID URL failed. Error message: "Nonce already used or out of range"

--Silex 09:29, 25 January 2013 (EST)

Hi Silex! Thank you for your notification! We are in the process of taking off this option from the site so that is why you might be experiencing problems. Sorry for that. Warm regards, IBAlex 13:59, 25 January 2013 (EST)
Thank you for answer, if you need tester, contact me --Silex 10:14, 27 January 2013 (EST)

Correction on the information provided on wikitravel post

Need to have the contact details for the writer.Please contact Hilton salalah as soon as possible.

Thank you,

sales & Marketing Department Hilton salalah Resort 00968 23211234 ext:1805

Which post are you referring to? Sorry, but we do not make phone calls regarding specific posts. If you wish to change information within an article please plunge forward. Here is a page that will help you with that. Warm regards, IBAlex 13:38, 28 January 2013 (EST)

Defective Search Engine

Your Search Engine is Non-Intuitive & Defective. Pemberton (British Columbia)is the only syntax acepted everything else is not found, if you put a space before the "B" & after the "a" it doesn't work either:

Pls somebody add these alternates: Pemberton British Columbia, Pemberton BC, Pemberton British Columbia, Pemberton BC Canada or CA or CND, same uncapitalized in small fonts pemberton british columbia, pemberton bc, pemberton british columbia, pemberton bc canada or ca or cnd etc. I added seveveral #REDIRECT pages a single page with 1 line of

Pemberton Canada#REDIRECT Pemberton (British Columbia)

but this crude & clumsey & makes users click another un-nessary time. Added by PemGateway

Dear PemGateway! Thank you for your message. Let me explain the situation. Every time you put the key words into search engine and press Go, the search engine executes a "page exact match" query. However, if you are executing a search - you need to click the Search button explicitly to bring up possible matches for the keyword. Try it with different examples like Cambridge (Massachusetts), Cambridge( Massachusetts ), Cambridge Massachusetts and you will see that the search engine gives you different options and works fine.
I have also created several redirects to en: Pemberton (British Columbia) page so that users are directly taken to the page however if they Search in the search engine for the name of the place, they should not have any difficulties in finding it.
Also, the proper wiki markup for redirecting pages is #REDIRECT [[Pemberton (British Columbia ]]. I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Warm regards, IBAlex 21:06, 28 January 2013 (EST)
Thanks PemGateway

Bergama - sleep listing

I tried to add a new campsite listing on the Bergama page.

There was no "add listing" next to the camping section so it has loaded at the top of the "Sleep" section instead of under the Camping section. Can you fix?

Cybersuezee 16:35, 28 January 2013 (EST)

Hi Cybersuezee! Of course I can help! Please check Bergama page to see if everything is ok. I also sent you a welcome message on your Talk Page [22] with links to many helpful pages that explain how to edit a page/ create a page/ add a listing on Wikitravel. Please read our Quick Contribution Guide[23] that is also very helpful for new contributors. Warm regards, IBAlex 16:47, 28 January 2013 (EST)

Thank you - that is fixed. But now I tried to to add the website link to the name of the business and that hasn't worked ( What did I do wrong? And I will go the the Talk page and read about how to do it right first time. Sue

You are welcome! Your listing had already a link to page. Right next to the information about the phone number. And that's how the right listing format should look like. I recommend you reading the following pages: [24], [25]. I'm sure they will help you. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Cheers, IBAlex 16:58, 28 January 2013 (EST)


What does ransom mean? Why won't it accept my writing?

Hi! Thanks for the message. Wikitravel has several abuse filters that protect the site form potential spammers or vandals who come to the site and make lots of malicious changes. Ransom is a filter that prevents new/IP users from making too many changes per hour. I saw you made many changes on en:Depok page and that's the reason you were stopped, sorry. I saw your contributions were constructive and valuable for us so please feel free to add them, just keep in mind not to save your edits too many times during one hour. If you have more questions, just let me know. Warm regards, IBAlex 12:21, 30 January 2013 (EST)

Salta main tourist agencies

I have to complain about the wiki page about Salta where is written that the tourist firm Pasada touristically is one of the main firms in Salta. I chose this company because I read about it in Wikitravel. I have a negative experience connected with this company and actually not only 8. As I have found out from the Internet even in 2008 a group of tourists had problems with this company and even in 2008there was many complains on it. We bought a tour to Cachi with this company but after a 2 hour trip they told us that the road was bad and they have to return to salta. But they actually knew before that the road was bad and just dia not want to loose money. They offered us 2 variants to take a city tour for the same price ( city tour costs 120, Cachi costs 230 pesos ) or take the same tour the next day. We couldn't as we have bus tickets to Cordoba the next day. We asked to return our money backand actually still receive nothing. Local mines terry of tourism doesn't help us and it seems as if they didn't even try. I actually writing because I hope that this will help some other tourists to get in such a situation. You can check about the reputation of this firm with the local authorities. Here's my e-mail [email protected] if you wish to contact with me. Sincerely yours, Svetlana Frolova

Dear Svetlana, sorry to hear about your bad experience with the company. Please know that our aim is to keep the tonality and edits as neutral as possible here however the content on Wikitravel is generated by users and their experiences with particular places which cannot be fully objective. To help other Travellers and to make Wikitravel better, please plunge forward and put your edits on the page you mentioned. In this way, Wikitravel will be more up-to-date and reliable as a travel guide. This site[26] will help you start contributing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. Warm regards, IBAlex 14:31, 4 February 2013 (EST)

plese add fraud option to kupang page

fraud alert ! fraud woman "yuni lidya dethan" careful about her.she is robbed many people specially foreigners.she is a scammer and prostitute too. mainthing u have to be careful in kuapng about scammers(fraud women and men),mainly women in kupang,that scammers main concentartion is foreigners(tousrists).these fraud women know english with that one first they will touch and communicate with u,after they will maintain relationship with u(everyday sex and romance) slowly they will robb everything from u(they will give local drink(sopi),they will take u to many placess in kuapng and out side kupang and introduce to many people(some of them are illegal activity people(human traffickers,cocaine ganges and prostitutes).mainy these women are offcial,they r worling as a employess in different sectors,u won't get any dought,my personal experence in kupang(2011) with fraud woman"yuni lidya dethan".at that time she is worked in nss honda,kuapng.she is belongs to lasina kupang,her home is on the way to lasiana kupang main problem is scammers.these ladies will use red color fluid when the time of sex for showing she is virgin.i am requesting wikitravel has to add fraud alert to wikitravel kupang page.these women have big networks.even u can ask in lavalon hostel and bar in kuapng about kupang woman when u enter in kuapng.don't touch them,careful u need guide,don't go alone to anywhere,careful.this is my personal experience in kupang up to 60 days,i got all the info behind beauty of kupang,i hope wikitravel will add this one to kupang page.

Wuerttemburg: castle? palace?

I have ancestors from Deutschland, I believe from Stuttgart, who settled in a German-Swiss community in what eventually became Morgan County, Tennessee, United States, forming the town of Wartburg, which, I am told, was named after a famous castle or palace: possibly Wuerttemburg? Was there a Schloss or a Palace? The museum? I may have the city wrong, I was told a long time ago, as a child. My grandmother was a vonBrause, later Brause. There seem to still be vonBrause's in Stuttgart, though I know that doesn't prove anything. When she was a child, her many siblings and parents were still fluent German speakers, though, as the youngest, she never learned. My uncle and I each studied German in school, but, rarely using it, don't remember much. His middle name was Brause. All of this is important/interesting only to me, but if someone would be so kind, I would like to know the origin of Wartburg.

This is a public computer, so my IP is useless. I haven't yet created an account, but on enWikipedia, I'm known as Ragityman, and I can also be reached at ragityman(at) If you would rather respond here, other tourists might find the info useful, or not. During our revolution (1776-1780), the German and Swiss settlers joined other "Over-Mountain Men" (from the early state of Frankland, later Franklin) to fight in battles in North Carolina, one of which was the battle of King's Mountain. The British were defeated and routed, and their commander, a general officer, was fatally wounded. After the war, our new, cash-poor federal government had no money to make payroll. Many soldiers were paid off in land-grants to the west of the mountains, with the secondary purpose of encouraging growth in that realm.