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::IANAL, but my understanding from talking to Creative Commons people, Wikipedia people, and FSF people, is that the Attribution-ShareAlike and GFDL are not compatible in any way (besides normal fair use provisions). This is stupid and wrong, and it's a big mistake that needs to be corrected by the creators of both licenses. Considering that FSF recommends the CC licenses, and vice versa, it seems stupid to have them incompatible. Right now, we can't do much about it -- I recommend that anyone who's got a beef with this should write to the FSF and to Creative Commons and let them know it's an issue. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 09:46, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)  
 
::IANAL, but my understanding from talking to Creative Commons people, Wikipedia people, and FSF people, is that the Attribution-ShareAlike and GFDL are not compatible in any way (besides normal fair use provisions). This is stupid and wrong, and it's a big mistake that needs to be corrected by the creators of both licenses. Considering that FSF recommends the CC licenses, and vice versa, it seems stupid to have them incompatible. Right now, we can't do much about it -- I recommend that anyone who's got a beef with this should write to the FSF and to Creative Commons and let them know it's an issue. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 09:46, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)  
:::The FSF and CC are aware of this problem and are working to resolve it.  Meanwhile, the BY requirement in CC-BY-SA seems to me to be unsuitable for wikis, where dozens of people might hash over any given paragraph or sentence at various times.  Do you really want to require a printed page to also contain the change history so everyone gets credited?  I like the egoless nature of wikis and enjoy contributing anonymously.  --anonymous wikipediac
 
 
::::We actually have on-page attribution built into MediaWiki (the software used for Wikipedia and Wikitravel), which is enabled here and not at Wikipedia. You can see it at the bottom of each page. Each user is attributed either with their real name, if provided (another feature disabled at Wikimedia sites, by the way), or their user name, or just as "anonymous user" if they're not logged in. If there are too many to credit at the bottom of the page, we credit them on a separate page. I think we still have a few more steps to perfect this process -- I'd like to have on-page attribution for image contributors, too -- but for now it's working pretty OK. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 04:29, 29 Dec 2004 (EST)
 
 
::::The later versions of Creative Commons licences allow contributors to specify 'attribution parties' to receive attribution instead of themselves, so with a recent CC licence, you could require attribution to the wiki if you wanted to be anonymous. --Carl
 
 
:::I'm not sure I completely understand this, but it seems that Wikitravel is using CC-BY-SA 1.0.  When the FSF and/or CC fix their licenses to make them more compatible, the older versions still exsist.  The GNU GPL for example has an "or any later version" clause, but when you say CC-BY-SA 1.0, it seems that a later versions is not OK.  I guess Wikitravel should be using CC-BY-SA 1.0 or any later version?  Or is this not an issue?  Comments?  [[User:not registered yet|Luke Stodola]] 25 Jan 2004
 
::::The GPL does NOT have an "or any later version" clause.  Some GPL'd programs have that clause.  Some GFDL documents have that clause too.  I don't know if Wikipedia has it.
 
 
:::::Section 9 of the [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html GPL] version 2 specifies what "or any later version" means. Section 10 of the [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html FDL] is almost identical. Authors can choose whether or not to allow later versions. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 04:29, 29 Dec 2004 (EST)
 
 
::::Hmmm. I think you have answered wrong part of the question above.
 
::::Let's assume that CC-BY-SA 9.0 will become GFDL compatible. Problem is that Wikitravel content will not be automatically available under CC-BY-SA 9.0. All the current content is under CC-BY-SA 1.0 and will always be unless all authors agree to move it to CC-BY-SA 9.0. So the statement ''If and when the CC licenses become GFDL compatible, other Free Content authors can include Wikitravel content into their work'' and a few similar seems to be false. --[[User:JanSlupski|JanSlupski]] 22:16, 4 April 2006 (EDT)
 
 
:::::Version 1.0 of CC BY-SA doesn't include an 'or any later version' clause. Versions 2.0 and later do. --Carl
 
  
 
:I guess the problem is that we see "share alike" as a way to avoid having our contributions be amalgamated into a fully copyrighted derivative work, but maybe no one thought of the other restrictions that go along with the way this is done.  For example, my understanding is that a derivative of a BY-SA work could not be issued under a BY-NC-SA license!  So anyways, I've pointed this out on the mailing list at creative commons and we'll see what happens.  -- [[User:ctylemay|ctylemay]] 22:00, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)
 
:I guess the problem is that we see "share alike" as a way to avoid having our contributions be amalgamated into a fully copyrighted derivative work, but maybe no one thought of the other restrictions that go along with the way this is done.  For example, my understanding is that a derivative of a BY-SA work could not be issued under a BY-NC-SA license!  So anyways, I've pointed this out on the mailing list at creative commons and we'll see what happens.  -- [[User:ctylemay|ctylemay]] 22:00, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)
  
 
::Thanks a whole bunch; I saw your post on cc-licenses, and it was succinct and cogent. I think if people from the Wikipedia and Wikitravel communities put some pressure on CC and FSF, we can see compatible licenses in future versions. It's necessary and valuable. Thanks for the work, again. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 22:34, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)
 
::Thanks a whole bunch; I saw your post on cc-licenses, and it was succinct and cogent. I think if people from the Wikipedia and Wikitravel communities put some pressure on CC and FSF, we can see compatible licenses in future versions. It's necessary and valuable. Thanks for the work, again. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 22:34, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)
 
::The fact that you can't relicense from BY-SA to BY-NC-SA is intentional; BY-SA, like the GNU licences, says "You're free to use this, even commercially, provided you give everyone else the same rights". Adding a non-commercial restriction for downstream users would be totally inconsistent with this. If you really want your work to be combinable with work under BY-NC-SA as well as BY-SA, you could dual-license it (to keep some kind of copyleft), or use CC Attribution-Only.
 
  
 
:I already got a response from Glen Otis Brown (the executive director at Creative Commons.)  Basically, it looks like they're working on it, and that future versions of share-alike licenses may alow inclusion of material into derivative works under other share-friendly licenses.  So sit tight [[User:Gutza|Gutza]], soon the transfer of content may be easier, even though for now it is not possible. -- [[User:Ctylemay|CL]] 22:59, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)
 
:I already got a response from Glen Otis Brown (the executive director at Creative Commons.)  Basically, it looks like they're working on it, and that future versions of share-alike licenses may alow inclusion of material into derivative works under other share-friendly licenses.  So sit tight [[User:Gutza|Gutza]], soon the transfer of content may be easier, even though for now it is not possible. -- [[User:Ctylemay|CL]] 22:59, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)
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Re: GFDL "requiring that all copies of the work be distributed with a copy of the GFDL and a changelog, as well as "transparent" (i.e. source) versions if you distribute over 100 copies", isn't the inclusion of the URLs of the GFDL, the changelog, and the source version, considered to meet this requirement?
 
Re: GFDL "requiring that all copies of the work be distributed with a copy of the GFDL and a changelog, as well as "transparent" (i.e. source) versions if you distribute over 100 copies", isn't the inclusion of the URLs of the GFDL, the changelog, and the source version, considered to meet this requirement?
 
:Not by my reading of the [http://www.fsf.org/licenses/fdl.html GFDL], no. I don't think it's in the letter or the spirit of the GFDL. The FSF specifically [http://www.fsf.org/licenses/licenses.html#OtherWorks recommends against] using the URL-based referencing in the Creative Commons licenses. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 12:47, 29 Oct 2003 (PST)
 
  
 
[[Wikipedia]] breaks about ten terms of the GFDL and its poor governance and use of SQL dumps as the only way to move masses of articles, means it really isn't providing source transparency either.  It's technically possible to sue the "Wikimedia foundation" and force them to (a) meet these terms or (b) sign a cross-licensing agreement for a license that actually does satisfy these terms.
 
[[Wikipedia]] breaks about ten terms of the GFDL and its poor governance and use of SQL dumps as the only way to move masses of articles, means it really isn't providing source transparency either.  It's technically possible to sue the "Wikimedia foundation" and force them to (a) meet these terms or (b) sign a cross-licensing agreement for a license that actually does satisfy these terms.
  
 
Not that this is necessarily the best way!  But this really isn't a problem.  There are lots of groups printing out 1-2 page Wikipedia articles and assuming that the URL on the pages meets those requirements mentioned.  They are not at all wrong to do so, especially since Wikipedia itself can easily meet all of those requirements at one URL, if it actually bothered to make it a priority...
 
Not that this is necessarily the best way!  But this really isn't a problem.  There are lots of groups printing out 1-2 page Wikipedia articles and assuming that the URL on the pages meets those requirements mentioned.  They are not at all wrong to do so, especially since Wikipedia itself can easily meet all of those requirements at one URL, if it actually bothered to make it a priority...
 
:Given the two options -- keeping our legal tail covered, and those of our users, rather than freely being able to borrow from Wikipedia at will -- I'd prefer the former. Most [[Wikitravel:Wikitravellers|Wikitravellers]] seem to agree. That said, you are welcome to label your contributions as being dual-licensed, as long as you're not basing them on other people's by-sa licensed work. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 12:47, 29 Oct 2003 (PST)
 
 
::OK, so, I got burnt with this discussion, since some people apparently want to dual-license their work. I've created an article on how to dual-license things [[Wikitravel:dual licensing|here]]; comments and modifications welcome, of course. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 09:31, 2 Nov 2003 (PST)
 
 
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== CapitanCook / World66 ==
 
 
Browsing the meta pages, I found an inacurrency here. You state that CapitanCook is licenced under the GFDL, although the link goes to to World66 which is licenced under Creative Commons. [[User:Yann|Yann]] 09:50, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
 
 
:HOLY CRAP! You're [http://www.world66.com/about/copyright_policy right]! This is a relatively new development -- everything used to be GFDL there. WOW! This is cool news. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 10:32, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
 
 
Good, isn't it? I only noticed the other week. Although I'm interested to know how precisely how valid such a relicensing is. --[[User:Earle|Earle]] 11:27, 25 May 2004 (BST)
 
----
 
 
==Upgrading==
 
 
''Discussion moved to [[Wikitravel talk:Copyleft]] by [[User:Evan|Evan]]''
 
 
==When does that winter end?==
 
"Creative Commons is [are?] planning to issue a new revision of their [its?] suite of licenses some time in the winter of 2003-2004." - I know it's still a bit wintry here in [[Wellington]] some mornings, but one wonders whether that sentence needs serious attention by someone in the know. [[User:Robin Patterson|Robin Patterson]] 01:10, 8 Sep 2004 (EDT)
 
 
:Seems that the wait is [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ over]. Or has the 2.0 SA license been around for a while? [[User:Caffeine|Caffeine]] 23:08, 2 Oct 2004 (EDT)
 
 
::See [[Wikitravel talk:Copyleft]] for the gory details. -- [[User:Cjensen|Colin]] 23:55, 2 Oct 2004 (EDT)
 
 
== List format rollback ==
 
 
I rolled back an edit that changed the list format in the first section so that each list element was further indented. I didn't see the point, and I didn't like how it looked. Mostly, I thought it was confusing -- suggesting that each group was a sub-group of the previous one. So, I rolled it back. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 15:11, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)
 
 
== Protecting our work against "Offbeat Guides" and similar leecher sites ? ==
 
 
I have seen that the site [http://www.offbeatguides.com Offbeat Guides] is using my work (on Honfleur, France eg.) without giving any credit for it. How can we protect our work against such leechers ? --[[User:DeepPurple|DeepPurple]] 03:34, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
 
* [http://iguide.travel/ iGuide] also does that. --[[User:2.80.96.192|2.80.96.192]] 12:31, 21 September 2010 (EDT)
 
: Can you give us an exact example?  Content from Wikitravel can be reused by anyone as long as they provide attribution. [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] 04:47, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
 
::This is very common. Perhaps one approach would be to insert the word "Wikitravel" in the text occasionally. E.g. "Wikitravellers visiting Rome will immediately notice that....". "A popular destination with Wikitravel readers is...". This would not stop leeching but would make it very obvious what they have been doing. I doubt that the guilty parties can be bothered to go through the text of every page they borrow. [[User:Roundtheworld|Shep]] 13:20, 21 September 2010 (EDT)
 
: Offbeat Guides makes sure to put attribution to you (and to Wikitravel) in our guides, complying with the licenses of the work we use is very important, and making sure that you get credit and attribution (not to mention complying with the law!) is very important to us. [[User:Dsifry|Dsifry]] 12:43, 24 November 2010 (EST)
 

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