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Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

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Revision as of 09:12, 3 November 2005 by Liujg (talk | contribs) (IS IT POSSIBLE TO START A CHINESE VERSION EXPEDITION?)
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The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'. Also, if you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Bug reports page instead.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!


Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

Stuff that's been moved:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Using images from

Can we refer to images held at (like you can from wikipedia)? This would save manually transferring all the images of cities from to which is very tedious!!! Refering to wikimedia doesn't seem to work in wikitravel at the moment, although it does work in all languages of wikipedia.

I have copied across a few images already:

Image:StJohnsCambNewCourt.jpg, Image:Cam_colls_from_johns.jpg and Image:Hoan_kiem_hanoi_1999.jpg

I've also noticed that I'm not the only person who has been forced to manually transfer images across from wikimedia:

Rnt20 10:03, 19 May 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel is not a Wikimedia project and it does not use the GFDL license, so Commons images are generally not acceptable here (unless PD or CC-by-SA 1.0) and the Wikimedia foundation is unlikely to look kindly on deep links from us. Fortunately the images you uploaded are PD, so they're OK. Jpatokal 10:31, 19 May 2005 (EDT)
Transferring the images is not that bad. Especially if you use konqueror where you can upload an URL from a third site, ie, you do not have to download the images to your own computer first. -- elgaard 12:59, 19 May 2005 (EDT)

I still worry about that WikiTravel isn't a Wikimedia project. Wouldn't it be fine to get in the family? I'm not up to date with copyright issues but I'm looking forward to integration. As long as this doesn't happen: Shouldn't we start our own commons? It's stupid to waste storage by uploading the same image to different languages. de:Benutzer:Thkoch2001

If storage is a problem, then note that does not have 100KB limit, in fact they want images in full/origial size. --elgaard 17:07, 3 Jul 2005 (EDT)
Bump. I'd just like to raise this issue once again — it's an increasingly big pain in the neck that there's no way to share images across versions. Would it be possible to come to an agreement with the Wikimedia folks to allow us to use their commons? And if you want to get real fancy you could maybe even add some magical scripting to check that any image linked in from there has to be PD or CC-by-sa 1.0 compliant... Jpatokal 14:58, 22 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Airport Codes?

I was just editing the Miami Beach entry and noted that neither local international airport was linked from its airport code, nor had any article at all. I would like to suggest that stub articles be added for at least all major international airports, as these definitely constitute places of interest to travelers.

In our guidelines for deciding what is an article, airports don't usually get articles because they are not destinations, and should be folded into the content of their containing city or region. Some airports are complex enough that they do get articles though. If you want to write an article about a particular airport, you might want to raise the issue at Wikitravel talk:What is an article? and generate a discussion about whether the airport really should have its own article. -- Colin 20:19, 23 Aug 2005 (EDT)

It would be nice to have a stub page on each airport, if only for the purpose looking at reverse links. I guess a search might accomplish the same purpose, though.

Icons for kid-friendly attractions

I really like how Fodor's has the little duck symbol next to kid-friendly attractions. Could we do the same thing? We could indicate recommendations (as mentioned above in "lists versus recommendations"), photo-op points, and maybe a few other things. This could be easily done by linking to a standard image, or perhaps creating a WM macro.

We need suggested itineraries

Thought: Wikitravel should be a useful guide for someone who wants to look up a country, and answer the question, "What should I DO AND SEE if I travel there?" Right now, the information on countries and regions/states is somewhat dry doesn't live up to this. Moreover, the templates don't have a section where you would write about this.

My suggestion: We should add to the templates for countries and regions a section "Suggested Itineraries". As usual, anyone could add to this section. So you might see a number of links for different users' suggestions, like:

- <link>2 week itinerary</link>: Travel from Cochin to Trivandrum, taking in hill stations and backwaters along the way. - <link>3 days on Mt Rainier</link>: A 3-day, 2-night hike on Mt Rainier that takes you away from the crowds. - etc.

I'm sure there are more things to consider in implementing this... for example, how do we add such a section to all the existing countries and states? It won't get added by luck. Thoughts? -- Jeremy_S

Do you mean like this? --Ravikiran 14:10, 11 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Exactly! That's beautiful. My concern is that I don't think such a thing will automatically spread unless there's some encouragement. E.g. Including "Itineraries" in the templates, and actually updating many of the existing travel pages to have such a section (even if it's blank). Jeremy_S 15 Sept 2005
I agree! This is a great idea. This kind of info is hugely helpful and remarkably scarce. 15 Sep 2005
There is a section for See and Do in region articles, which might also help. --Evan 09:28, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)
If anything is to come out of this discussion, it will involve extensions of article templates (among other things). So I've copied this discussion into Wikitravel talk: Article templates#We need suggested itineraries. Folks can suggest changes there, and if there is a consensus, we can go ahead and make the changes -- Ravikiran 09:47, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Google Blog Search

So cool. Google Blog Search. Type in 'wikitravel' and see what the bloggers say. Nzpcmad 17:31, 14 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Another useful feature: When you do the search, click on "Sorted by date" at the top on the RHS and then scroll down to the bottom. You'll see "Subscribe: Atom (10 results - 100 results) RSS (10 results - 100 results)". Pick the one you want and paste the link as a subscription into your favourite RSS reader. That way anytime someone blogs about Wikitravel you'll get a notification. --Nzpcmad 15:22, 25 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Dedicated pages for hotels and restaurants

Where can I put a REALLY detailed information about a hotel? I have spent some effort in collecting travellers-oriented info on the hotels I recently stayed at. Each hotel worth at least a separate page with multiple sections each -- how is it better to contribute it? I'm sure the information would be helpful for those planning their trip careful enough to know details normally not available through hotel web sites or even reviews. And I would be happy to help to become a place to find such kind details next to overviews.

Same question for restaurants: I visited a dozen and ready to share some feedback, both overall and on specific dishes, recommended and not. I can publish a content for one of them if the idea doesn't look counter to Wikitravel goals at this stage.

-- DenisYurkin 19:01, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel isn't really designed for incredibly detailed reviews, so you should try to compress the data into a single paragraph.
That said, one of the things I'd like to see in the future is a link to a detailed review page for each attraction, where travellers can contribute their personal opinions. Jpatokal 21:13, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Agreed here; interested in the personal opinions idea, but it's going to be a delicate operation. I think that about a paragraph per hotel is the most we can accommodate reasonably. At the outside, for "destination" hotels -- ones that are a site in and of themselves -- I could see doing a sub-section format like we do for attraction listings. But I think that'd be a rare exception. --Evan 11:08, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Could you detail what do you mean by a delicate operation? I'm ready to write a single paragraph about each, but I wouldn't want to throw away my experiences that I believe valuable for other travellers, but too detailed to find space in that paragraph. Is it ok that I start with a single paragraph, then try to create a separate page for hotel or two? What are the chances the content will survive, and efforts will be not wasted? --DenisYurkin 14:34, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
A paragraph is plenty. The last person to re-write it can pretty much do whatever they want to it. If there's dissagreement then it can be taken to the talk page. There's no reason to have a separate page per listing. That will just make our guides seem really empty and useless, basically turning us into another World 66 or worse. -- Mark 15:15, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
> one of the things I'd like to see in the future is a link to a detailed review page for each attraction, where travellers can contribute their personal opinions.
Why wait for a future? Encouraging people to just share their opinions -- even from a single visit -- would become another source of information for compressed, one-paragraph summary. After all, most travellers visit every place one or two times per trip -- why loosing their insight? I am not too experienced in Wikitravel realities, but from my personal experiences, experts in the region are rare and, normally, well-paid -- while amateurs are many, and it's them who are willing to share with others. --DenisYurkin 13:49, 26 Sep 2005 (EDT)
The reason I'm filing this in the Mysterious Future is that Mediawiki doesn't currently allow any easy way to automatically insert "See reviews"/"Add reviews" buttons that would allow inserting and maintaining one-person reviews, not the usual collective editing. Manually maintaining these would be a massive headache. Jpatokal 06:15, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I think I can easily make it reality with MediaWiki templates -- are we ready to give a try? Promise the page won't be deleted (as it happened with GreekWines) if it works? SeeReviews / AddReview can be achieved easily. The only thing I'm not sure about is signing each review automatically with user name and timestamp. However, I believe we can start with existing Wikitravellers -- and they are smart enough to sign their opinions. What do you think?
As I said in the thread above, I can propose some structure for hotel pages -- providing place both for objective, factual info, and subjective opinions. Chances effort won't be wasted? --DenisYurkin 14:34, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I'm really not so much into this idea I'm afraid. I think it has the potential to make our articles really lopsided and to disperse effort away from our destination guides. Meanwhile if you have additional comments for or against one of the restaurants/bars/hotels on a given destination guide it seems to me that the destination's talk page is pretty much the perfect place to put it. We do not need, nor does it serve our goals to have pages per listing. -- Mark 15:09, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Non-goals: Yellow pages

Think of a friend from out of town asking you where they should go -- you wouldn't list all 200 possibilities, but 2-5 options for a particular type, budget, or part of town.

How are the recommendations selected? What is good for one type of travellers is not for another. How are those FEW hotels selected for a country? Is it about targeting a specific audience of travellers for each budget level? Or is it edit war that drives the decision on which recommendation survives?

It's not that I'm asking for a detailed procedure on dealing with overloaded listings (I can expect the project is too young for such issues). What is important at this stage is whether Wikitravel ideologists consider helpful to have several selections of places to stay / visit within a budget range once it can help to some travellers to make a more educated choice.

Sorry if this was covered somewhere in FAQs -- it did not meet my eye.

-- DenisYurkin 19:49, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

There is no formal process as such, travellers just write up the places they like. We definitely want more than one place in each category, it's just that a single Wikitraveller usually only stays in one place per trip!
If you want to highlight your favorite things to see, do and eat in a big destination, I suggest you write up your own itinerary for it. See Tokyo for a few examples. Jpatokal 21:13, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
"Your own" is probably a bad term here, though. Just like any other article on Wikitravel, itineraries can be edited by anyone. --Evan 11:02, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Denis: absolutely. I think the numbers we look for are about 5-10 listings per listing type (Eat, Do, Sleep); after that point, we want to either break them down into sub-categories (by price (budget, mid-price, splurge), by style (museums, Mexican restaurants, B&B's, hostels)) or do a geographical breakdown (dividing a big city into districts, for example). I don't think we've had a case yet where we've removed a slew of restaurants because there were "too many". The point of that non-goal is that a travel guide doesn't have the same responsibility for comprehensive listings that a city guide (viz. or a yellow pages Web site does. --Evan 11:02, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Then it's not the number of listings to matter, but personal experiences with a specific place. Why making restrictions you're ready to remove once the number of otherwise-suitable listings is reached? --DenisYurkin 13:42, 26 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Also: I've updated that non-goal to use a more reasonable number (5-10) rather than 2-5 from before. --Evan 11:06, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Nth largest city in the world / Nth largest city in the US

Some city articles mention their relative size and/or population. Is that tidbit of information helpful to the traveler? If so, perhaps we should have a central page somewhere that lists all the cities in Wikipedia, ranked by size. (Perhaps wikify a list like such as "Large Cities in the World" lists all cities with population of more than 100,000 in the world. There are about 3400 cities in this list. Then cities we don't yet have an article on would show up in bright red). --DavidCary 10:34, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

There are a lot of lists like this. I'm pretty copyright-paranoid, and I know that collections of data can be copyrighted. So I'd like to make sure that we either a) do our own research and glom a bunch of lists together or b) find a public-domain resource (like a US State Department list?). Otherwise, I think this is a great idea, and a good way to find holes in our coverage. --Evan 10:50, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I don't really see the relevance to travel — are there many people out there who choose their destination by its ranking in a list of population? Wikipedia already has plenty of lists, most of them hotly debated and subject to non-stop flamewars, so why reinvent a broken wheel? Jpatokal 11:13, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Actually, I'm less interested in the ranking (agreed, the petty fights on ranking are more distraction than they're worth) than I am in the lists of cities. Although population of a city and its value to travellers aren't always directly proportional, it can be a good gauge of where we need some fill-in coverage. The main source of this data, as far as I can tell, is the Demographic Yearbook 2002 from the United Nations. They've got stats on Population of capital cities and cities of 100,000 and more inhabitants, and it can be downloaded in Excel format here. I think a United Nations list of cities with 100,000 or more inhabitants might be a good place to put this info. --Evan 11:32, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Does the Copyright prohibit our use of this? -- Colin 14:52, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)


I got impatient waiting for T-shirts. So I make a CafePress shop. Everyone can order a Wikitravel T-shirt. The markup is 0. I hope someone can make a better design. But I will order my first Wikitravel T-shirt in a week. I had hoped to come up with a more eye-catching back, maybe using some of the more spectacular photos on wikitravel, but that is hard and a lot of work. --elgaard 20:39, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Good start, but the logo font on the back is not the right one, and is all that explanation text really necessary? I'd go more for a bare-bones just-the-logo-ma'am model, and would be happy if a few bucks of markup went to Evan's (currently non-existent) donation box. Jpatokal 21:50, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)
FWIW: If the font is wrong then that's not really the logo. -- Mark 12:02, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I'm sorry that you got tired of waiting, but I can't say I'm happy about the situation. Elgaard, is there at least a way for you to make a note that that's not an "official" T-shirt, and that the money paid doesn't support the Wikitravel project? --Evan 08:08, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Of course. Don't be sorry, I just wanted to get a T-shirt project going. I will order a T-shirt next week because I will be going to north America so shipping will be less. I hope we can come up with a much better, official Wikitravel design. Then I will order another T-shirt and close my Cafepress test-shop or hand it over. I added some text, hope you are more happy about that. --elgaard 11:56, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Could we start a T-Shirt design contest page, like the logo contest page? --elgaard 12:04, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I don't really see the point of a t-shirt competition; a logo somewhere on the shirt should suffice. Probably the thing that was bothering Evan wasn't the design so much as the possibility that people might think they were buying official Wikitravel merch'.
That said you should probably switch the logo on your shirt to the actual logo Image:Wikitravel logo bigtext.svg. This has the text converted to outlines so that you don't have to have the right font. The shape of the letters by the way is considered part of a logo. It's not the same without it. -- Mark 09:11, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Mayby I put too much text on it. But a logo is not enough. I want people to see it, get interested, start using Wikitravel and contributing. This means that there should at least be a URL. The URL can be guessed or googled but if we do not print it on the T-shirt, many will not be looking on the internet for wikitravel. I would also like somthing on the back, simple like WikiPedia. Maybe "Edit this destination"?. And should we have Official Wikitravel merch? --elgaard 10:06, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Fine, but please at least fix the logo. -- Mark 10:09, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I fixed the logo, and made a simpler design with only the logo on the front. --elgaard 19:42, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I got my T-shirt. I am very pleased with it, the new logo looks great on cotton. But I was hoping we could get an official Wikitravel T-shirt. Is there any plans for that? --elgaard 11:08, 27 Oct 2005 (EDT)


What is the best way to list prices for Hong Kong? Some parts of the articles use HK $, other just $ (HK being implied). Or should we be using HKD, HK$ or other variant? Hkpatv 03:24, 7 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Typically I think just go for "HK is implied". This is what seems to have happened in Australia with the dollar symbol. It will only not make sense in places where you can make transactions in two types of dollar (probably USD and local). This certainly isn't the case in Australia and sounds like it isn't in HK either.
Thanks for the input, that makes sense to me. I will update the curent prices in the HK section if I see any, unless someone tells me not to.Hkpatv 06:06, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)
That makes the most sense to me. --Evan 09:51, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

6500 articles?

The statistics page says that we have more than 6500 articles. Considering that it was hovering around 5500 on saturday, it looks like a bug to me, unless someone really dedicated added over a thousand while the spam attack was going on. I would of course be happy to learn that the earlier numbers were wrong and we really do have that many articles. --Ravikiran 04:00, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)

You're right, Wikitravel:Multilingual statistics says it was still 55xx on Friday. On the Japanese version, we noticed that it now counts redirects as articles for some reason, has the same happened in English for some odd reason? Jpatokal 05:30, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)
That must be the problem. I'll look into it and see if I can come up with a fix. --Evan 11:42, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Any progress? Otherwise we'll soon be in the embarrassing situation of having the 'official' total multilingual article count top 10,000 while the actual number is still only around 8,500. Jpatokal 02:30, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)
And Wikitravel:Multilingual statistics the count says 10,087. Jpatokal 21:40, 27 Oct 2005 (EDT)


I think we should add a category for city exits and places were you can get out of a city easily under "get out" for citys (at least large citys). Also we should add hitchhiking to the "get around" in contry templates. Any other opinions on that?

I've been adding "By thumb" sections under "Get around" for countries and "Get in" for some cities. Jpatokal 02:37, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

LocalExpertiseWanted template

I frequenly encounter need to insert a stub for a specific topic: "Local regulations on this wanted summarized"; "Interested in other expreriences on that". The idea is to easier attract locals of specific country and frequent travellers: "we want to know this on your country, please help". If every country / region has its list of help wanted, it will grab more attention than just having an incomplete article (whether in Stub status or not) assuming we'd like any help equally.

Technically, it can be achieved either by a separate page for each large region (eg. Greece\Help_wanted) or by tagging specific destination with a category "help wanted here", detailed on discussion page so that list don't affect offline readers on the go. Opinions? --DenisYurkin 12:26, 16 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Sorry, I don't quite understand -- how is this different from the {{stub}} template and Wikitravel:Articles needing attention lists? Local expertise is always wanted for every article on Wikitravel! Jpatokal 12:56, 16 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Hotel Directories

Would it be okay if I went through hotel directories (Choice Hotels, Ramada, etc.) and added in every single one? (Not any time soon though, I'm working on Wikipedia). --Rschen7754 00:31, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Broadly, the answer is yes. See this --Ravikiran 01:02, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)
See also User:Cjensen/project/hotelmaker and bug me if you want me to work harder on it. -- Colin 02:10, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Places to do $WHATEVER

Would it be unreasonable to start the potentially endless project of having pages dedicated to listing travel destinations for particular activities or phenomena? Instead of organized by place, organized by activity? Places to hike. Places to see Mexican wrestling. Locations of reported extraterrestrial activity. Great coral reefs for divers. Haunted houses. Tequila bars. Used record/bookstores. Etc. The point would not be to be exhaustive, which would be impossible, but rather to provide useful snapshots of the world for travellers interested in finding certain things or activities in whatever part of the world they head to.-- 06:03, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Yes, please! --Evan 08:29, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Yes, it's unreasonable, you mean? :-) I assume you mean "plunge forward," and I will put down the marker on an article on "Buying Folk Art" that I've been mentally organizing for a while. Note that there was a lukewarm reception for this idea in Talk:Travel topics, but now with an endorsement from Da Man ... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:04, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I've been thinking about indexes a lot lately. Maybe there's a way we could make this sort of thing semi-automatic. Perhaps it should be possible to create an index page from a set of search results, with the index page editor personally vetting the results for relavancy and adding any other pages appropriate to the given index? Just a though. -- 09:52, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)
This sounds like what categories are intended for — and unlike indexes they work automatically. Jpatokal 03:35, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)


Note that Scuba diving has a slightly different format: places are listed at the top and a description of the activity itself is below. I think this would work better with some short reviews of the places in the article. For example (scuba diving):

Hypatia 03:17, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Go right ahead, the listing is barebones because I was too lazy to punch in descriptions. It should also be categorized by the type of diving, general difficulty level, etc. Jpatokal 03:35, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I'll do the ones I know or know of. Hypatia 02:38, 28 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Turin, Italy

Seems like the article for the site of the 2006 Winter Olympics Turin, or Turino, would look a little sharper than it does now. I'll try to do my part to get it into shape seeing as how hundreds of thousands of people should be getting ready to crush the place! I just trying to stir up a little help... -- Ilkirk 11:03, 21 Oct 2005 (EDT)

See also the discussion at Wikitravel talk:Articles needing attention#Collaboration of the week?. I think the efforts with the Turin article would be a good barometer of whether something like a collaboration of the week/month/whatever would work out. -- Ryan 02:47, 28 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Log out

I have discovered that when I click on "Log Out" my browser goes to the "Log In" page, but does not log me out. How do I really log out? What harm may come from not logging out?

Tom Croke aka Frog One 11:51, 26 Oct 2005 (EDT)

I think it only goes to the Log In page when you've fallen prey to a particular bug. There is some sort of a bug that randomly logs you out of the system, but you still appear to be logged in. Out of habit, I tend to click on "My Watchlist" - if it returns information, then I know I'm logged in. I'm sure someone can explain it better... -- Ilkirk 16:19, 26 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Portuguese Wikitravel

Someone has singlehandedly tried to create a Portuguese Wikitravel. --Ravikiran 08:30, 28 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Pickpocket defense

There are some generic pages here, such as altitude sickness and tropical diseases, that are referenced from many destination pages.

I'd like to create one for defenses against pickpockets, maybe something more generic about travel safety. How should I label such a page? Is there a template? Pashley

It's OK. I found the place to do it.


Thinking about it..

Liujg 04:06, 3 Nov 2005 (EST)