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Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

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The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Technical requests page on Wikitravel Shared instead.



Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

If a conversation does not fit into any specific talk page, it should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here 3 months after the last comment in that discussion.

Stuff that's been moved to specific talk pages:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Should we sweep this out? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 03:20, 16 August 2006 (EDT)
Ugh, this place is getting messy and this is the one page I hate to attempt to organize. Anyone want to take a stab at cleaning it up? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 18:29, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
How do you sweep the pub? What are the rules? Anything older than a certain date? There is stuff on here that is many, many months old. Where would be a "place more appropriate" to move the discussions to? Kire1975 01:54, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
Also, I am using the Safari browser, from Apple, on my Windows Vista computer. For some reason the scroll bar on the right side of my edit screen isn't working properly, so the only way to get way down to the bottom of the screen is to grab some text and pull my cursor down to the bottom of the page. It gets really awkward. Cleaning up the pub could help me out with this problem. thanks, Kire1975 02:14, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

One more thing, when I click 'save" on the edit page, it takes a while to processs. Kire1975 04:31, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

How to sweep pub?

That's a good question! Our archiving explanation at the top of this page has become very convoluted—I'm honestly not sure how to sweep the pub anymore. Can anyone explain the revised process? --Peter Talk 00:18, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I nominate receveli's "request for help" below to be swept out of the pub. the problem is solved. how is it done? the shared wikitravel pages has a pub cellar. Should we create something like that? Kire1975 22:19, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

I have got the broom out today and swept out some of the older stuff. Mostly into the archive pages but, where relevant, into Talk Pages for the destination under discussion. Where I've done the latter I have marked the discussion as "Swept in from the travellers pub" Tarr3n 07:44, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

making tables


I am trying to find information on how to make tables such as time/schedule tables for ferries or trains and couldn't find any.

I tried to copy/paste from an existing table but trying to modify it looked too complicated. Thanx for help in advance.Paula 01:23, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

If the information is so complicated that it needs a table, think twice about whether it's worth maintaining, or if you can just link to the official site instead...
But basic wiki table format is like this (click Edit to see syntax): Jpatokal 02:25, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
header header header
column column column
column column column
are you assigned to me Jpatokal? you seem to follow me everywhere.
it's not the information that's too complicated, it's the table's editing syntax that is. i have already put in the links but they are all in Korean so I thought it would be helpful to have the basic times and destinations in English.
is there a link to table formating?

Sheki Star nomination

Sheki is attempting to move on up from mere "former OtBP" status to a full out star. Please drop by the starnom page and leave some praise, criticism, or even just partial criticism of one small section of the article would be appreciated, since people have worked hard on this one! --Peter Talk 10:15, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

A starnom for a destination in Azerbaijan? Wow! I never believed I can live to see anything in ex-USSR in starnoms... (Sorry, I never been there--and find it unconstructive to criticize without any experience with the destination) --DenisYurkin 17:58, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
No need for knowledge of the destination—star qualifications are mostly just manual of style issues, and I know you're familiar with those! Or you can just mention there that you like the article ;) --Peter Talk 18:05, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
I'd like to just jump in here quickly too in defense of people critiquing an unfamiliar destination. Sure, they can't verify that's it's "complete," but they can do everything else. Also, because of their local knowledge, authors may tend assume that something is obvious when it is not. Those unfamiliar with a destination can provide a valuable insight in into whether or not an article makes sense from their perspective — a perspective that is shared by the travelers themselves, who are also likely unfamiliar with the destination. Therefore, I think it's a useful "dry run" for the real readers, and imo, ideally all articles should be reviewed by a healthy mix of those that are very familiar with a destination, those that know a little about it, and those that know nothing at all. Asterix 14:47, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

External Link Glitch

It looks like the format for links added using the "add listing" tool has been changed and is now a glitch. "www." has been replaced with "", as if searching for an internal page.Lake Buena Vista#Eat is one example article. Jtesla16 19:13, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

No glitch, they just need "http://" before the rest of the url. It would be nice if the external link formatting automatically understood this w/o the extra code, but that's the way it is. --Peter Talk 20:19, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Not a comment per se ... more a plea for help !

I'm flying in to Hong Kong on the evening of the 16th September. From there I need to get through to Zhengzhou (Henan province - Mainland) as quickly as possible, for to start a basic Chinese language course. I've been told there's a train (T97B) from Jiu Long through to ZZ. (a charming 18 hour train trip !) Does anyone know what my options are, if any, or perhaps suggest a better way. Optimistically yours, P````

Please try asking on [1], that's what it's there for!
But the obvious option would be to fly. Both China Southern and Hong Kong Airlines fly direct from HK to Zhengzhou, or you could just cross the border to Shenzhen (there are even ferries direct from the airport) and take an even cheaper flight from there. Jpatokal 07:59, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

How do I add my ogg vorbis sound file to wikitravel?

How do I add my ogg vorbis sound file to the wikitravel phrase book?..I want to help!LingoSuccess 23:41, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

A audio is deprecated by our Image policy ("Other media" section). -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:49, 12 September 2008 (EDT)

Independent travel in Africa

Why are there so many people who advise against travelling independant in Africa? We just did buy a car in Kenya and travelled all over East Africa, with no problems at all.?? It's very easy!! --—The preceding comment was added by Mara85 (talkcontribs) .

Star/Diamond ratings

Do we have guidelines on whether or not to list star (or AAA Diamond) ratings in hotel listings? See, for example, this edit and this edit. LtPowers 11:28, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I do not know of any guideline on that; my suggestion would be not to use them, since they vary too much in different areas. An alternative might be to use them where we can be very specific like "rated 4 stars by Mobil Travel Guide", but there may be copyright issues with that, it would entail extra work, and I think there's a slippery slope leading to "rated by the Elbonian Ministry of Tourism". There's discussion of ratings at Hotels#Star_ratings and an article on Rating_systems. Pashley 00:28, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

Booking agancy link

It's needed to add (English interface provided) to the spam list. This link was added twice in Saint Petersburg (Russia). -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:50, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

PS: In Russia too. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:54, 16 September 2008 (EDT) and Hyatt listings

User:'s rate of adding new Hyatt hotel listings (most seemingly copied from their web sites) is accelerating and I'm having trouble keeping up. Is everyone boycotting the site over the stupid ad kerfuffle? LtPowers 17:32, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

I'm not seeing a problem -- the listings need some detouting as usual, but otherwise look okay. -- Colin 17:48, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
In some corporate boardroom, somewhere...
Chairman of the Board: "You mean, we place ads all over their site for free"
Adguy: "Yep"
C: "And these guys, they give up their free time, to reformat our ads, as traveller information?"
A: "Thats right, we just post the promotional material we already developed for our website"
C: "So, we spend no time or money, provide no destination information, no research...."
A: ".... and these guys incorporate it into their guide free. But best of all, when they have finished, the travellers can't tell our promotion from real information.."
C: "Why would they do that? Are you sure you are not making this up?"
--Inas 20:14, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
Yes, it's the detouting I'm having trouble keeping up with. LtPowers 22:13, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
If any listing consists of material copied verbatim or almost so from another web site, shouldn't that listing just be deleted ipso facto? It's potentially a copyright violation, certainly inappropriate, and in my opinion ought to be specifically against policy if it isn't already. Sailsetter 11:22, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
Nah, I think just deleting the description (where the touting is) and keeping the basic info (address, phone #, etc.) will suffice. Then either they can come back with a more honest description or someone else can jump in with their own description. PerryPlanet 13:15, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
I don't agree with that. A listing with no description isn't of much value in itself and encourages other people to make similarly basic listings. (I think it is far more likely to just sit there than to be expanded by someone as the above assumes.) I say better to delete such things. Sailsetter 19:31, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
Are you suggesting we delete any listing without a description? That we require every listing to have a description? I don't think that's going to help. Like LtPowers said, there's good things about just including a listing, even if you have hardly anything (or nothing) to say about it. And yes, while it is more likely that the listing is going to sit without a description for a while, I don't think we should delete a listing on the presumption that no one is going to add that info. I mean, we don't delete the "Buy" section in an article because no one's gotten around to adding a shop yet. PerryPlanet 21:17, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
We are not yellow page, are we? Why include a hotel if we can't be serious about recommending it? --DenisYurkin 17:41, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
My own preference would be for an explicit policy that listing descriptions should be concise, but listings with no description at all would be first in line to be deleted if the number of listings got too many. Sailsetter 10:37, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
I'm fine with that, but I don't think "too many listings" is a problem we're faced with here in these articles with these Hyatt listings. PerryPlanet 15:12, 19 September 2008 (EDT)
Well there is some value in just knowing what's available. Maybe not a lot, but some. Even just including it tells the reader some information: namely, that this particular establishment is not a complete dump and has at least enough redeeming value to be listed. (Of course, that would be true of any Hyatt, but we've moved to generalities here.) LtPowers 19:48, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
If other hotels are sold out (pretty common in some resort areas if one just shows up) there is a great value to having just a phone number listing. Alingelb 19:25, 29 September 2008 (EAT)
We encourage business owners to add their hotel listings. See Wikitravel:Welcome, business owners. -- Colin 21:13, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
It seems to me extremely clear that extensive, uncredited quotes from other web sites shouldn't be put into Wikitravel, even by the owner of the other site. I think there ought to be a specific policy against this. If there isn't, where can I propose it? Sailsetter 19:29, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
We allow reuse of one's own work or work with permission. Now, normally we'd prefer the guy to say "yeah I'm from XYZ corporate and have permission to add this text", but it's pretty clear in cases like this that that is exactly what is going on. -- Colin 21:13, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
It seems to me there's a whole tangle of issues here. What if a destination article has extensive verbatim quotes from the Rough Guide or Frommers web site? Are we to assume that the quotes are done with permission, or without? What if a listing for a Four Seasons resort is a quote from the Four Seasons web site? Are we to assume that it was done with permission? Sure we can say people can quote their own stuff, but how do we know it's the owner who's doing the quoting? What if the destination page for, say, Rome, has extensive sites from the English language version of the official Italian government Rome tourist site? Are we to assume that the Italian government won't object? And then there's the larger principle issue of whether Wikitravel should to any extent be an anthology of passages from other web sites. A policy saying "no quotes" would at least simplify all these issues. Sailsetter 22:16, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

Using text from other sites is fine, as long as the text is PD or licensed under a license compatible with CC-by-SA 1.0. If the user copying text is the author, he/she/it should leave a clarifying message on the talk page of the article to which he/she/it is adding the text. If none of these criteria are met, I say feel free to revert or delete as the situation needs.

Regarding this case, if a user comes along and adds the same message to countless pages, even if it's not copied from another website, that's clearly touting, and I would be liable to revert it. It might be ideal to instead delete the touting text and save the listing, but that takes 3-4x the time to revert, so that's not always feasible. So "clean up" > "revert" > "leave mess." --Peter Talk 22:29, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

I see two problems with the above. 1) If I notice that a Wikitravel page has quoted text from another website, should it be incumbent on me as an ordinary contributor to try to figure out the licensing situation before deleting it? If that's the case, in practice no typical user is ever going to take the trouble. And 2) I have never, ever, on any of the very numerous Wikitravel talk pages I've looked at, seen a message from someone saying "I was quoting my own web site's text." Sailsetter 22:36, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
If you've already figured out what website the text comes from, it should be immediately apparent whether it is properly licensed. If it is CC-by or CC-by-SA, it will say so prominently on the website (as does ours). It is PD only if it says so prominently, or is the work of the U.S. Federal Government. And yes, those talk page messages are rare, but I have seen a few. --Peter Talk 10:58, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

I notice that on Wikitravel Shared it says the following:

Can I copy text to Wikitravel from other sites? No. That is, unless you are the original author of the text, or the text on the other website is either Public Domain or has been explicitly licensed as compatible with Creative Commons Attribution/Attribution-ShareAlike 1.0.

I take this to mean that text on a Wikitravel page which is 1) copied verbatim or nearly verbatim from another web site which is 2) not clearly in the public domain and without 3) being annotated on the Talk page by the person adding it saying they are the owner, may be deleted. (I still think though that the owner's permission shouldn't justify such quoting.) Sailsetter 19:38, 24 September 2008 (EDT)

At the end of the day, this is really not your or even Wikitravel's problem. Like wikis everywhere, we assume good faith, and if IB gets a DMCA takedown from the copyright holder, they're still "safe harbored" under [Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act OCILLA] as long as they nuke the content then. Jpatokal 13:12, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Adding a photo to an article - HELP !

I am new to Wikitravel and to wiki in general. I have looked high and low (and in between) on Wikitravel and on Shared and on Google and I cannot find anywhere a step by step, user-friendly plain English guide for how to get one of my photos which is already on Shared into an article. If I overlooked it, I apologize in advance. I have figured out that I can copy the script for a photo already in an article, replace the photo's name with the name of my photo and then paste that revised script somplace in the Article. This method works but it is not exactly elegant. thanks. 18:27, 19 September 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel:How to add an image is a good place to look, but it's really quite simple, just copy this: [[Image:filename of image|thumb|description of image]] and insert the image name from Shared and the description for the image. And then use that page I linked to figure out further details, like figuring out which side of the page you want it on, how big you want to image to be, etc. PerryPlanet 20:36, 19 September 2008 (EDT)
If you want elegant, you will need to create a user and log in. Once you have done that, click on preferences in the top right, select the editing tab and enable Show edit toolbar (JavaScript). This will give you a toolbar that simplify a couple of functions, one of them being the ability to add an image. Unfortunately our version does not cater for the additional image options. Example on the right. --Nick 02:21, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
  • I'm having problems adding two particular photos to a wikitravel page. I've used the correct format, but instead of the thumbnail appearing, only the title of the photo, and it's description appear. I've tried re-saving these photos, I haven't had any problems before. [[Image:Monet_House.JPG|thumb|250px|Monet's House, Giverny]] "Spircle 16:57, 13 October 2008 (EDT)"

I have already uploaded the image file to Wikitravel shared, I can view it when I look at my contributions, but linking it to a wikitravel site won't work. I've re-saved and re-uploaded it a couple of times, but this hasn't worked. The photo was a digital image taken in 2001, I can't see anything unusual about the format that the file is in. Also, what is bugging me is that the files appear correctly in the gallery of recent images. Any suggestions would be welcome. Spircle 09:25, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Might the problem be related to this problem? Tarr3n 07:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
Monet's House, Giverny
The wiki is case sensitive, try [[Image:Monet_House.jpg|thumb|250px|Monet's House, Giverny]] rather than [[Image:Monet_House.JPG|thumb|250px|Monet's House, Giverny]], note the lowercase jpg. You image displays on the right next to this comment. --Nick 08:26, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Eureka!!! It worked! Many thanksSpircle 08:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Glad to be of help. You might want to add a license tag to Image:Monet_-_The_Waterlily_Pond_sm.jpg to avoid it being deleted. Photos of paintings may violate copyright, but in this case I think copyright has already expired (70+ years since his death) so it should be in the public domain. Adding {{PD}} to the image description page should do it. --Nick 09:15, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Exchange Rates Policy?

I think we should adopt a policy to omit exchange rates from country articles with floating currencies. If there is a peg to the USD, or Euro, or if the currency is stable against another currency, then it is worth mentioning. Otherwise, the information is invariably going to be out of date and misleading. Especially in today's economic climate where EUR/USD exchange rates are changing by percentage points intra-day. There is enough stuff to update without doing exchange updates daily. The alternative would be some automated process to import the information where required, but wikitravel has other strengths, and there are plenty of exchange rate sites.. I know this information is in other printed travel guides, but it is wrong there too.. --Inas 19:24, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

I'd support that – cacahuate talk 19:55, 22 September 2008 (EDT)
I'm not against omitting exchange rates but I do know that it is useful to have some idea of the rate when looking at listings. Often, when I visit a country for the first time, I have no clue, not even a ballpark figure, for what the rate looks like. (That said, sometimes a month can hit the rate right out of the ballpark!) --Wandering 22:41, 22 September 2008 (EDT)
I'd vote with Wandering. My suggestion is to put up the exchange rate in the Quick Facts box at a country level. Given the current financial turmoil, this may not be perfectly accurate - but is more likely to get updated than if the exchange rate is buried deep inside some article - as in the case with the India page --Pradyot
I don't think the exchange rate should be totally dropped, as a ballpark exchange rate, tagged with a date, is useful. That is, the Japan article should say "As of 2008, the yen trades at around 100 to the dollar", not "At 27 seconds past 8:31 AM on October 6th, 2008, the mid-market interbank FX yen rate in New York for quantities below 1 billion was 106.1234566789 to the US dollar". The vast majority of the world's currencies are kinda-sorta stable (that is, the number of zeroes is likely to be the same next year as this year), and for the rest we should note that they aren't.
But I think the best place to put them is where they're right now, namely the Buy section, since that's where the country's currency is discussed.
Otherwise we'll just end up with exchange rates in both. Jpatokal 02:31, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
I rather like seeing the exchange rates. Every traveler knows that they fluctuate and that they should find an official source for the latest figures, but it is handy to have an indication of what to expect in the country article, even if that is out by 15% or so. It might however be a good idea to always date the exchange rates, that way a reader will immediately know how much the quoted figures can be trusted. Obviously, for countries like Zimbabwe quoting figures simply does not make sense and it is sufficient to state that the economy is FUBAR and the traveler should check the exchange rate prior to any transaction. --Nick 09:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

New Server Transition Begins, September 24th

The tech team will begin the transition to the new server setup today. This will create some disruption in service to the site. Beginning immediately, the Search function will be switched to a back-up version that, some may notice, is less robust. Many of you may not notice a difference at all. This is a temporary switch. Full search will be restored after the transition to the new servers. Once the work on search is completed, which should be a matter of hours, the transfer of the site will begin. At that point, Wikitravel will become "read-only", meaning you won't be able to make edits. A message will appear on edit pages. This "read only" period will last for about three hours. When the site comes up on the new servers, the message will disappear and you will be able to edit again. JuCo 16:57, 24 September 2008 (EDT)

Is the transition already finished? -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:06, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
New site architecture went live at roughly 10:20 last night Los Angeles time KevinSours 10:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
Please report bugs in Wikitravel Shared as you encounter them. Thank you for your patience during the upgrade. We're very excited about what the new setup will mean for greater stability and scalability moving forward! JuCo 13:34, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Image permissions

I've read everything I can find on Wikitravel and Wikitravel shared about images, and I'm still totally confused about how do answer the question: "How do I know I have permission to put an image on a Wikitravel page?" To start, can someone at least answer this question: "If I find an image on shared, does that mean I can put it on Wikitravel without worrying about permissions?" Sailsetter 10:23, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

If it's your own picture or on Wikitravel Shared, it's definitely OK to use anywhere on Wikitravel. Jpatokal 12:57, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
Caveat: if it's your own picture, but it shows a copyrighted document or copyrighted image, it may not be okay to use. LtPowers 10:02, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
Thanks. Another question: is there a policy about using images from Wikimedia Commons? Can anything there just be used, or only certain types of licenses? And if the latter, is there a listing somewhere of specifically what type of licenses Wikimedia commons images have to have if they can be freely used on Wikitravel? Sailsetter 11:01, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Right now, we can only accept images from Commons that are in the public domain or are licensed CC-by-sa version 1.0. Other versions of the CC-by-sa license are not backwards compatible with 1.0, which is what we use. I'm still holding out hope for updating our license, but that seems a long ways off yet. LtPowers 19:33, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

We just have one image policy... The only images that can be used on this site are:

  • Ones you've taken yourself, and are releasing under a Creative Commons license or into the Public Domain
  • Images that are already licensed under Creative Commons, and that are available to be modified and for commercial use (ones that say "NC" are not compatible.

So, if you find images on Commons that satisfy that, as many do, then yes, they are compatible here... but GFDL only is NOT compatible here, so many images on commons are not. You have to look at each image – cacahuate talk 20:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

The list of compatible licensing is here. --Peter Talk 23:07, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
So does that mean that only Wikimedia commons licenses in the section of that page beginning Licenses-There are a bunch of available licenses for files on Wikitravel, and they are a bit confusing. Here's a breakdown ... can be used on Wikitravel period end of story? For instance GNU Free Documentation Licenses aren't on that list, so that means that Commons images with that license can't be used on Wikitrave, right? Sailsetter 16:11, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
Right, that list is comprehensive—no other licenses are compatible with our site. GFDL licenses are not compatible, unfortunately, with Creative Commons licensing. That's why we can't copy text from Wikipedia. There are people trying to make the licenses compatible, but we're not there yet. (But we'd need to upgrade our site's licensing from 1.0 to any later version to take advantage of new compatibility anyway.) We can only use images that have GFDL licensing if they cross license the image with both GFDL and CC licenses. --Peter Talk 17:02, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

OK, so the above discussion indicates, if I've got it right, that images from Wikimedia commons can be put on Wikitravel if they are licensed as public domain or CCA-SA 1.0. The next question is, how do you do it? I've read all the documentation on this I can find, and the more I read it the more confusing it seems. Do you need to first copy the image from Wikimedia Commons and then Upload it to Wikimedia Shared? I can't find any explicit statement that you should do this, but it finally dawned on me that some things in the instructions only seemed to make sense if that was so. If that's not what you're supposed to do, then what are you supposed to do? (And as I say I've read the Helps on adding and uploading images and it still doesn't tell me the basic thing I need to know -- how do I get it on Wikitravel. Or maybe it does tell me, but it doesn't say explicitly any where I've found, "To put an image from Wikimedia Commons on the San Francisco page of Wikitravel, this is what you do ..." Sailsetter 15:00, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

You're not limited to version 1.0, and you can also use CC-by in addition to CC-by-SA. Easy version: if a license is provided in the pulldown menu on the download form on Wikitravel Shared, then you can use that license. To get a commons image over to here, it's necessary to download the image first, then upload it via Shared. To fill in the necessary description details, click the link on the upload form next to "photos from Wikimedia Commons," then fill out those fields. I really wish there were a faster, simpler way to do this, but that's the best we have for now! --Peter Talk 15:50, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

Shared down?

Am I the only one who can't access Shared? It's been more than a full day now. --Peter Talk 15:21, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

I'm able to access Shared without problems. In what way can't you access it? Aude 15:32, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
I can't load any pages whatsoever. Perhaps IB decided they'd rather not hear from me anymore? --Peter Talk 16:18, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
I don't know enough technical details, but guess it has to do with moving the servers. Could be an issue with browser caching pages? Can you access other language versions? Also, all the images come from shared. Can you see images on the English Wikitravel site? I'm not sure what else to suggest. Aude 16:40, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Definitely strange, it was fine for me all day yesterday and today. Have you tried clearing your browser's cache? – cacahuate talk 16:43, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Clearing my browser cache didn't help. I was able to access shared right now using IE instead of Firefox, but as soon as I logged in and tried to submit a page edit, I lost my ability to access the site completely in IE as well. And yes, I can access all language versions. --Peter Talk 17:40, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

I managed to access the site by clearing all my cookies, but that only worked until I did anything on the site, then I'm locked out again. In firefox, I get to the message "Waiting for" in the status bar immediately, then nothing happens as the page fails to load. Can others view shared:Multilingual statistics? No matter what I do I haven't been able to load it. --Peter Talk 23:10, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

I believe this problem has been resolved KevinSours 15:00, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
A lot of the pictures from Shared don't seem to be pulling through to Wikitravel articles. For example Tywyn - when I logged in earlier the images were showing. I made some edits to the page, which presumably refreshes everything, and now none of the images are showing. I logged in to Shared, to see if I could view the images there, and I just see little white rectangles when I click onto the image pages. For example shared:Image:Bird_Rock.jpg. In answer to Peter's question, I can see shared:Multilingual statistics Tarr3n 08:29, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
I too can see shared:Multilingual statistics, but the up/down arrow images have been replaced by links to the images. Jnich99 08:55, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
That's what I'm seeing too. Didn't really look at the page in any detail when I checked before that I could see it. The "missing" images from articles that I mentioned above also have been replaced by links, but even clicking on the link doesn't actually bring up the image. Tarr3n 10:17, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
It's not just images from shared. Look at Walt Disney World Resort. The lead image is hosted locally. Earlier today it was showing correctly on the image description page, but now it is not. Looks like a problem with the thumbnail generation code across Wikitravel. LtPowers 11:39, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
Inshallah, we'll have this serious problem fixed by the end of the day. --Peter Talk 11:53, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
Purging the page with non-displaying images seems to fix it in most cases (click edit, change action=edit in the url to action=purge and press enter). Does not work in the case of Tywyn however, seems there is some image format support missing on the server and it can't resize that specific image. --Nick 16:07, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
I've also noticed I sometimes get what appear to be earlier versions of a page -- and it's not a matter of my browser cache, because it happens after I bring up the browser, clear the cache, and then go to Wikitravel. They seem to be actually earlier versions of files that Wikitravel is giving me. Using the browser refresh function gets the most recent page. Sailsetter 17:19, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
I've also experienced the same issue as Sailsetter mentions above. Refreshing the browser seems to work. However I have done this then come back to the same page later and seen the old version of the page again. Odd.
With regards to the problem with images, Tywyn has several images, only 2 of which are not working. I've checked Shared and they seem to be displaying fine, for example shared:Image:Craig-yr-Aderyn_in_snow.jpg which should be the main pic on Tywyn. Dolgellau seems to have the same problem, including one of the images which is also used in Tywyn and Snowdonia and is displaying fine on both of those pages (shared:Image:Llyn_Cau_From_Above.jpg). The main pic on Snowdonia is one of the images which isn't working in Tywyn (shared:Image:Boats_on_Talyllyn.jpg). Tarr3n 05:43, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Tywyn, Snowdonia, and Dolgellau should now all be fixed, although you might have to refresh your browser window. The fix is to click on the little icon at the bottom of the thumbnail, then add ?action=purge to the resulting url. Then refresh the image page. Then refresh the article in question. An obnoxious bug no doubt, but it has been fixed—just some images will still have the problem until their cache is purged. --Peter Talk 10:00, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for posting that fix Peter. The problem seems to have affected quite a few images across the site. I've been fixing them as and when I find them, but it is an obnoxious bug as you say. Tarr3n 05:05, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

I'm still getting this all over the place, and I'm unable to fix it when the image is on Shared. Eg. Image:Higashi_Shima_Matcha.JPG gets "Error creating thumbnail", and if I try to purge it, I just get "This page does not exist". The actual pic on Shared is fine. What to do? Jpatokal 05:12, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

I've also got that "image doesn't exist" message after purging the cache. I find that if I hit refresh, it then displays it OK, and the thumbnail is working in the relevant article as well. The image you mention is working for me now.
This problem is a major pain though - like I said above I've been fixing it as and when I find it but there must be hundreds if not thousands of instances that need to be repaired. Would it be worthwhile putting a link to this discussion on the Main Page or Project Page so that everyone is aware that a fix exists? Otherwise I think there's a chance of people coming along and finding an image not working and helpfully uploading a new one to replace it. Tarr3n 09:04, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

Taxi numbers

Living in Morogoro, Tanzania, if one does not own a vehicle, it's quite useful to have the phone numbers of a few local taxis handy. In fact it's the only option during the evening, when public transit doesn't run, and in many other situations besides. I'm sure this is true of many other towns & cities. So, this would quite legitimately be useful information for travelers.

However, taxis here don't have central dispatch or consolidation of any kind - you need to get the cell phone number of every taxi you intend to use. It seems quite strange to put someone's primary cell phone number on a public web page, even if they are a business. Also, I was thinking that because there are literally hundreds of taxis in the area, it could get to be quite ungainly to list them on the main page. That led me to wondering if there is a precedent for this situation.

Thanks, - Albert 19:25, 29 September 2008 (EAT)

I vaguely recall some discussion along these lines for the Siem Reap (Cambodia) article, about whether individual bike cabbies can/should be recommended, and the consensus was eventually "no" -- this would lead to too much touting.
However, a place like Morogoro sounds sufficient off the beaten path that this should not be a problem. So, yes, I think it's fine to list the names and numbers of good cabbies. Jpatokal 13:25, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
The one downside of listing a host of numbers for individual cab drivers is that the list will quite soon be incorrect as cabbies change numbers or just go into another business. --Wandering 11:01, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

With children

It would be convenient to categorise pages "XXX City with children". Also, have a look at the related project (only in French yet). --Josce, 16:31, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Agreed. here's a list of them. Perhaps we could group them together in a section under Travel topics? --Peter Talk 17:34, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
Or perhaps this?,GGGL:2006-45,GGGL:en&filter=0?
--DenisYurkin 11:47, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

Animated gifs?

I have temporarily added an animated gif to the Route 66 itinerary article and am looking for some feedback on it.

  • Does anyone see specific problems with the use of animated gifs?
  • Does it look acceptable and of value or did the static map work better?

__Nick 15:51, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

I dislike it because 1) as a matter of personal taste I hate web sites that flash and wriggle and move, 2) as a practical matter I don't see any reason at all why there should be a moving line to trace Route 66 rather than a static one, and 3) as a matter of policy, I think it's inconsistent with Wikitravel's goal to be useful as printout. Sailsetter 19:48, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

It's not working well for me. I had to reload a few times to get it to show up, then to start animating. It still only gets as far as Albuquerque before it resets itself, and on the image description page I get "Error creating thumbnail." I'm not against the very concept of animated gifs, but this one seems gratuitous (nothing a static image can't show). LtPowers 10:00, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Agreed -- animated GIFs are rarely, if ever, of value in a travel guide. Routes can be perfectly well represented on a static map. Jpatokal 12:42, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Thank you all for your feedback. I've reverted it back to the old map --Nick 14:06, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for trying a new idea, Nick. Innovation is key. LtPowers 20:46, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Agree we don't need it, but still a fun idea! – cacahuate talk 00:35, 4 October 2008 (EDT)


I wanted to ask the Wikitravel community for a little help with a wiki that I'm trying to get launched - Wikimmigrant. I'm hoping that Wikimmigrant can complement Wikitravel by providing detailed immigration/visa rules and regulations for every nation on Earth and, possibly one day - Mars. A detailed account of explaining the application process and visa fees for every nation is obviously going to fall way outside the scope of Wikitravel's goals to provide relevant travel information, but for those of us in the world that want to up and go to Poland, Canada, Singapore, Mongolia, or India from the comfort (or discomfort - that's why Wikimmigrant will help explain obtaining refugee status in different countries) of our native lands, we should have a way to access that information in a central place.

Yes, there are expat websites that can give a person information and guidance on obtaining a work or residence permit for Country A, but, as we know with travel information, information can change quickly. So, if the parliament of Country A changes it's immigration laws, then the MediaWiki software will allow anyone with that knowledge to update Wikimmigrant and that information would be instantaneously available to the world, which is not true for many expat websites.

Anyhow, I could specifically use help developing policies, templates, and articles. I'd especially appreciate any help from someone with knowledge of CSS to design a spiffy main page. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 21:42, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Problem with redirects

I just now noticed that there is a problem with redirect pages all over the website, namely, in that the redirect page displays an earlier version of the cache page. Take "Disneyland" (the cache) versus "Disneyland Resort" (the redirect), for example. Jonathan 784 18:31, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

Actually, you noticed it several days ago. =) Use the solution I put on your talk page, if I wrote it intelligibly enough. LtPowers 19:55, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

Edit text appended to name of town

Cannes France has a paragraph of text that belongs in the opening "understand" but it seems to be appended to the town name and has no "edit" function with it. Its real messy and does not follow the required style. How can I get rid of it? Very Newbie but trying!

(Andrew 13:50, 10 October 2008 (EDT))

At the very top of the page, just above the "Cannes" title, there are a series of tabs. The one marked "edit" will allow you to edit the entire contents of an article, inclduing the messed up text.
The inline edit will do individual sections if you only need to change a small section. If you are doing wholesale changes to many sections, it is easier to use the edit tab at the top and do all the edits at once rather doing individual sections.
Epolk 15:39, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Brilliant! So obvious with hindsight - thanks! (Andrew 13:44, 11 October 2008 (EDT))

Copenhagen/Østerbro Star nomination

I'm hard at work giving Copenhagen a huge notch up in the scale, hoping to make it DoTM when it hosts the World Outgames in August - And i think my home district, has ended up quite good. So please head over and comment on the Star Nominations page - and while you're at it Sheki needs a few more comments too. Cheers Sertmann 23:53, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Picture from Wikimedia Commons

I realize there was a recent article adressing this, but I'm still confused (and didn't want my comment lost/not seen in that long section). So my question is, if it is a picture found in the Wikimedia commons, it is ok to use? I would like to use this [2] image with a GFDL permission. I would like to use it in the Nagorno-Karabakh article to show which parts are close to the front line (and thus more dangerous to travel). If the file type is not compatible(I think that's what someone said in the section on adding pictures), I can easily take a screenshot and cut out the image...but would that be ok? Thanks for the advice! AHeneen 18:32, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Unfortunately no, we cannot use that image, because it is not licensed under a creative commons license (e.g., CC-by-SA). GFDL is not compatible with Wikitravel's licensing. Basically, you can upload images to Shared if your are the author, or if they have licensing that appears in the pulldown menu on the upload screen. And more detailed information is at shared:How to upload files.
I'm sorry to hear that this is confusing so many of our contributors. Maybe we should write some sort of a quick version on image licensing? --Peter Talk 21:20, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
Also, especially when it comes to pictures on Commons, it may be worthwhile to send a message to the file's author (on Commons or on Wikipedia or by e-mail or whatever) asking if they'd be willing to multi-license a GFDLed image as CC-by-SA. GFDL is not a very good license for images anyway; it was originally designed for documentation. Multi-licensing it as CC-by-SA is much more re-use friendly. LtPowers 08:09, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
I think the previous discussion under Image Licensing made it as clear as it can be. I suggest incorporating it into the documentation. I also think it would be better to have one documentation section giving all the information any contributor needs to know about image licensing, uploading, and policies, and which doesn't make any assumptions about what the contributor already knows (example: don't assume that contributors know that to use images on Wikitravel they have to upload them to Wikitravel Shared first). Sailsetter 10:29, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, a basic guide here on :en with links to the relevant articles on shared might be a very good idea. --Peter Talk 13:58, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

Anyone else having trouble staying logged in?

I don't know if this is just me, but everytime I've gone to Wikitravel in the past couple of weeks I have to log in, despite the fact that I am using my computer and keep checking the "remember me" box. And after I do log in, the bar at the top doesn't acknowledge that I am logged in (it says "My page" and "log in / create account" instead of "PerryPlanet" and "log out"). PerryPlanet 10:44, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

I had noticed that I'm having to log in more frequently than I used to. In fact just noticed that at the moment I still have a "log in/create account" link, but if I click on the other links up there, I do get my personalised pages. You are not alone! Nrms 10:54, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
No, im having huge problems as well. Sertmann 11:26, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
I have a "log in/create account" link now, but I'm logged in. I don't have this problem on ja: and shared:. -- Tatata7 11:37, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
shared:Tech:New_server_bugs#Logged_in_status_acting_up --Peter Talk 12:18, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Incredible India

Do we really need an identical listing for this travel agency in 20 or more articles? I'm thinking not. Texugo 04:02, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

One of the admins has seen to this now. Just noticed there is still one reference on the Mumbai page. Will keep an eye out for more popping up. Nrms 06:47, 20 October 2008 (EDT)


I just posted for the first time to Wikitravel, but cannot see my posting. Should I see my posting immediately? How often do updates take place? Thanks.Cousin Scott 12:43, 18 October 2008 (EDT)Cousin Scott

yeah, it should show immediately - but sometimes you have to hit F5 on the page, for it to appear. Sertmann 13:21, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for the help. I still can't get the posting to publish. Maybe, Wikitravel is having trouble. Thanks, again!
Hey, I checked, and your entry does show for me - i don't know exactly what your problem is, but I've heard of others having problems like this before - maybe it's a browser related issue? Anyone a warm welcome to wiki travel mate ;)

Where is the community?

OK, this maybe be a bit provocative and cocky, for someone who has been here a short time as i have. But hey, bear with me - I'm new :). While I've become absolutely enchanted by the scope of this site, and really impressed by the daily number of contributions. I'm quite disappointed with the community involvement of the place - it seems a bit like a large number of "anonymous" contributors, and very little soul - with the exception of few Sysops, and in particular Peter, whom i think is absolutely amazing, and it was his praise that made me want to do continuous contributions here.

Please note that I'm not targeting anyone (not least the janitors - it's obviously working, since the articles are all nice and clean). And granted, I'm a bit disappointed by the fact that my own star nomination which I worked really hard on, didn't get any more comments after two weeks. But still - the collaboration of the month is not working - which it really should at a place like this. I've been trying to patrol new edits - but can't keep up, because very few users seem to be chipping in doing this, and what about the welcomes? - which i think is one of the best things about this place (I tried doing some myself for the first time today). Did we loose all the fiery souls with the IB take over?

Come on people, you don't need to have sysop rights, to chip in on the janitorial work around here, look around the talk pages, welcome new users, join in on the different expeditions, talk in the pub, contribute with your opinion in the Destination of the month, of the beaten patch and star nominations sections - Make a name for yourself - please help give the place some soul and grow the community :)

- Stefan (Sertmann 20:14, 18 October 2008 (EDT))

AMEN! Edmontonenthusiast 20:05, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Pennsylvania School Projects

Just a heads up. Some teacher in Pennsylvania has apparently sent all her students here to each to their own article on a small town in Pennsylvania. I've been trying to keep up with style edits and removing copyrighted material, but it's a bit overwhelming. Could use some help. Texugo 01:36, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Nice concept though! :) I'll try to keep a look out once a day or so... Sertmann 06:44, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Is that why I just had to revert our Pennsylvania region names and delete a bunch of related copyvios from VisitPA? LtPowers 14:14, 20 October 2008 (EDT)


Semi-protection may be in order here until whoever keeps vandalizing it (from a plethora of IP addresses) gets bored. I'd do it myself but my admin buttons aren't showing. LtPowers 14:14, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Yet another ridiculous problem in the wake of the disastrous server move weeks ago. You'll see your sysop buttons if you use IE instead of firefox, but you can also access the functions through the history tab. Click history, then replace the word "history" in the resulting url with "protect" or "delete" and voila. What's more frustrating is trying to move pages... --Peter Talk 15:43, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Well I wasn't going to point any fingers and was happy to let someone else handle it until the login issue was resolved. Nonetheless, I fired up IE and took care of it. Obviously not an ideal long-term solution, though. LtPowers 17:16, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Talk:Florida isn't the only one, the same vandal(s?) have hit San Francisco/SoMa, the Chicago skyline guide, and Soma Bay. I dunno about the others, but San Francisco/SoMa I think could use some protection if anyone can access their admin features, because it's been the target of repeated vandalism. PerryPlanet 19:01, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Done, done, and done. This is shaping up to be a potential problem, though, if this guy is willing to put his ads up on any old page. I was hoping it was just a Florida thing. Blocking the IPs won't help because they change so frequently. LtPowers 08:55, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
I know this is probably gonna come out the wrong way, but i work at a insurance company, and until January 1st, often have long vacant night shifts where i just sit around and wait for a fire or flooding to happen. I'd be happy happy to jump in and help with the admin stuff, and have my rights revoked when the FF bug is resolved (we use IE6 at work). I know this is far from ideal since I obviously don't really have complete grasp of the inner workings of this place yet, but I just felt like i wanted to extend the offer if you guys are feeling overworked - and in any case I'll just try to keep up with normal access stuff at the recent changes page Sertmann 20:21, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Now you stay quiet...

The map of Korea was made for me at my request, so there is no copyright infringement. Now I've asked administrators (Jpkotai[sic] and CJensen[sic])how to proceed in proving this but strangely it is only when I can improve the page do I not get a rapid response. It's been 3 days and I have yet to be told how to "unviolate" the map. [3]. Again, what do you need? and where should I post it?Paula 20:48, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

I probably can't help, because I'm asking questions about maps (Talk:Edmonton). But I will tell you I 'gree in the fact that it does sometimes take longer to get a respones. I know it's silly. Please, guys, reply to PAULAS specific issuue! Edmontonenthusiast 20:53, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Paula, you need to get actual permission from the copyright owner to release the map under the terms of the Creative-Commons Share-Alike license. Copyright is a nasty area of the law where the Copyright owner is presumed to own and reserve all rights except when he Very Explicitly makes a rights grant. Coincidentally, this is exactly what I said in my vote for deletion, though I happened to use fewer words. -- Colin 21:23, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
Colin: I know. And yet again, you have not answered the question. Is the question that difficult to understand? I KNOW you want me to show you I have permission. My question is, HOW? Do you need a signed letter from the president? or just a letter from the creator? something with the letterhead? WHAT?...And this is exactly what I wrote in response to you 4 days ago. I have a written statement from the creator that I'll post with the upload of the map. If that's not good enough, I'm sure you'll let me know.Paula 21:32, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
You should get a permission, an email from the original creator will do, explicitly stating that he or she agrees to release the image into a license accepted on wikitravel - and then copy the content of the email into the image description page - we assume good faith around here. Sertmann 21:34, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
I responded yesterday at shared:vfd, which is a much better place for this conversation – cacahuate talk 22:06, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Thank you Sertmann!Paula 20:06, 26 November 2008 (EST)

A question.... It's about maps...

Hey, I was wondering if it's ok to make a map in Photoshop Elements, and then save it as a PNG? Is that ok?

Edmontonenthusiast 23:44, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

You want something that creates an SVG file... we then make a png version to use in articles, but we also upload the SVG, which allows for the community to work on maps together and update them when needed. Your time will definitely be better spent and your map will last longer if it's made as an SVG. The latest version Inkscape (free) is the preferred way to create them, but Illustrator I think also would work fine. I'm glad you're showing an interest in maps, it's definitely a bit of a learning curve involved, but it's rewarding once you get the hang of it! – cacahuate talk 02:13, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
So basically...I need to make two files-SVG and PNG? Can I make SVG in PS Elements? Also how do you upload two...hjust seperatelyt? Thamks! Edmontonenthusiast 12:14, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Technically, it doesn't have to be an SVG; it could be any semi-portable vector graphics format. Unless I'm misunderstanding the policy. Photoshop is a raster graphics program, though, so it's not the best choice for creating maps. A vector graphics program, such as Inkscape, allows the creation of high-quality images at any scale. If you find some of this jargon confusing, you can read up a bit on it here. LtPowers 13:50, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
I should NOT have to install programs to make maps. I don't get why I can't use Photoshop Elements. To me it's absurd. But, then again, I may be missing something. Please, do explain. And am I right, I need to make a PNG and SVG format and upload the two? And, also, can you make SVG format in PS Elements? THANKS! Edmontonenthusiast 13:54, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Also, where do you get, LNKSCAPE? Edmontonenthusiast 13:55, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
You can create maps in any format you wish, including png's, but the community here on Wikitravel, prefer to have them in svg format - as the work almost ends up in higher quality, and other users can pick up on your work and improve it if they wish (which is the whole point of a wiki), you can't do that with a file created in Adobe Elements. Inkscape is available for free here[4] and illustrator (expensive) here[5] - Sertmann 16:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Thankyou, and what other programs give the SVG option. Or...could you just make it in PS Elements then open it in something else in which it can be made a SVG. Or you could saeve it as a jpeg, then convert it to SVG¿ How aboht those/ THanks! Edmontonenthusiast 17:35, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
hmmm, how do I explain this... SVG's and PNG's are two completely different ways of creating an image. Because of this, you can't use a program that makes files like png, gif or jpg to make a svg image (I'm speaking in somewhat over simplified terms here). A program like Elements or Photoshop works in pixels, where each dot on your screen is assigned a color, while programs like Inkscape or Illustrator works in vectors, which you might remember from your math classes, this means you don't work in pixels but with elements - this also means you can scale a svg image to every size you wish, and still have it look exactly the same way. We prefer svg's exactly because you work with elements, that way you can change the line of a street, text, sign or anything else in the image, without having to delete it, and use the pen tool to redraw things pixel by pixel.
It does take some time getting used too (it will seem awfully stupid and complicated at first), but once you get the hang of it, it's a lot more intuitive way to draw something and anything, you will become much faster at drawing things, and the things you draw will look a lot better. Which is why almost all professional designers use Adobe illustrator or similar programs to do their designs. So after a while. the time you spend learning this, will come back 10 fold once you get the hang of it. Sertmann 18:03, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Actually is there any place it would be appropriate to stick the above explanation (i'd expand it a bit, and fix the awful punctuation), so it's available to other new users? Sertmann 18:12, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Wikitravel:How to draw a map already covers most of this... it could use some updating, but it's there. To Ed, you only have to create the map once, as an SVG. then it will have layers, will be high quality, and will be editable in the future by other contributors who can improve it and update it when things change. There's an option in Inkscape to export your SVG as a PNG, which takes about 10 seconds, and that's what we use within articles. So you only have to create the map once, but yes, you end up uploading 2 different versions – cacahuate talk 18:26, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Thansk for all the commmments! Edmontonenthusiast 18:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

Protected Status?

So I would like to know if, like on Wikipedia, protected and semi-protected status is available. I ask this, because there has been a bit (not obnoxiously excessive...but a bit) of touting on the Orlando article from people who are not Wikitravellers (ie edits list their IP address). I fully understand how Wikitravel is a wiki and thus everyone can contribute, but I would like to keep things in a consistent format and IP-address-people seem to do nothing but tout and what I'm about to describe. For those who know about "Orlando"'s more like a small metropolis than a city (for instance the city proper has 220k residents but the metropolis has 1.2-1.5mil residents...not including far-flung suburbs, but just the contiguous urban area) such that a lot of people keep adding locations/attractions which are outside the city proper (myself included). If those of us Wikitravellers want to clean up the page and bring it to Wikitravel standards, we don't want businesses and naive IP-address-people to come along and add stuff outside the city proper. If protection is available, semi-protection would be nice...and if not, are there any plans/desire to add such? Oh, and to those who view the page...I have yet to clean up the touting, since it only came to my attention today and am to tired to do so. Thanks for yall's answers AHeneen, a member of the Wikitravel:Florida_Expedition AHeneen 02:10, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

We use protection very sparingly, usually when spambots are involved. We definitely never consider protecting pages based on misguided efforts, rather we try and guide new and anon users towards learning the right place to put things... when you do move the listings out, leave descriptive edit summaries so that users who look at the history can see why and where you moved the info to. I know it's annoying and sometimes time-consuming, but that's sorta how it's gotta be, we can't write these guides with just a handful of us, we need those new and anon contributors :) – cacahuate talk 02:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel Dutch

message to all the dutch contributors of Wikitravel: There is also the dutch version of Wikitravel where you can contribute in your own mother tongue, we really need more contributors. Hoofdpagina Wikitravel --Canshun 04:03, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

How am I doing?

Could you check me districtifying Edmonton, and well, give me a progress report if you will, of how I am doing, I have done most of it. Edmontonenthusiast 14:10, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

What does this thing mean?

What does the number in brackets on RECENT CHANGES mean? like (diff) (hist) . . Talk:Edmonton‎; 16:48 . . (+259) . . Edmontonenthusiast (Talk | contribs) (→I was wondering about maps...Yeah, again crazy me... - ) See the bolded!Edmontonenthusiast 12:50, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

It means that that many characters (letters) have been added to the article in that edit. Negative numbers mean they've been deleted. And bold is used to highlight large changes in either directions. Jpatokal 17:42, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks, mate:)! Edmontonenthusiast 18:34, 26 October 2008 (EDT)


Why is it that when (sometimes) you do an edit to a page. And then look at it at a later time, and that stuff is not on there, but reloading the page brings that back..or sometimes you have to go into history and click the latest version to see it. How come that is? Keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 19:36, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Some else may have the technical answer, but since the server relocation a few weeks ago, the interaction with the browser cache seems to be wrong. A forced reload on the browser solves the problem, just do a SHIFT-Reload from your browser to get the latest page. --Inas 20:20, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
Heh, thanks. I know how to reload. Any plans of when to get this fixed? For people unfamiliar, they may not (always) be able to see recent changes. I know this doesn't allways happen but still. Keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 20:23, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Article Hierarchies

How much information to add to a lower level article that is already in a high level article? For example every article in Australia for coastal cities seems to have the same information on staying safe at the beach, sunscreen, swim between the flags, what to do in rips. There are three possible approaches I can see.

  1. Include the info at every level of the hierarchy
  2. Include the info at the top level only, and assume that every visitor to the city/town level article should be aware of the info at the top level
  3. Include a link to the top level information at the city/town level, when it is relevant to the City/Town.

I'm inclined to do the third. I know we want the articles to be printable, etc, but there is some information which is contained in the guide that should be accurate and verifiable, and it is certainly easier to do this if the information isn't repeated 100+ times in every sub-article. Any other opinions? --Inas 20:00, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

In general info should go at the highest level that it applies to... we don't need to describe what an autorickshaw is on every Indian city page, just in the India article. However if there's something specific about rickshaws in Bangalore that is relevant to the traveler, then it should be note on the Bangalore page. With safety info, I think pretty much the same should apply. But if riptides are a particular hazard at a specific beach in Australia, it should be noted I think on the city/beach page too – cacahuate talk 12:10, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Yes, the third option is the way to go: generic/universal info at country level, and reminders plus links in from lower pages when applicable. Duplicating eg. safety info is still OK in my book (it changes rarely if ever), but fast-changing/extensive stuff like currency info, local cuisine etc should be on the main page only. Jpatokal 15:49, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Do we really need links in every applicable article? It already leads to much duplication, and one-time contributors frequently expand every mention in lower level with some details that should belong to higher level (and sometimes are there already). See Spain and its regions / cities: Barcelona, Bilbao, San Sebastian as an example of much duplication. Why not the first option? --DenisYurkin 18:47, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
No, just when it's really necessary and applicable. If riptides are strong all along the California coast, then discuss that at California. But if they are particularly strong in Santa Barbara, then it should be noted on that page too, especially since it's a safety issue. – cacahuate talk 19:47, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
In tropical Australia just about every article has some mention of Crocodiles. The information in every article is different, with different advice, and a different assessment of the relative chances of becoming supper. This info is really quite important, almost to the point that it should probably be referenced. Again, I might look at just including a reference to the common information in the higher level article, and any specific information for the location in the lower level. I'll see if it results in too much ugliness. --Inas 01:39, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
I agree with the above comments that advice should be at the highest level (usually this would mean country, but for big cities sometimes at the city level.) I don't see the need for cross referencing in most cases, though it sometimes may be appropriate, usually through a brief internal link. In particular, I think (though it often isn't done, which is why I'm mentioning it) that comments on food, safety, and scams should be put on the highest level unless they refer to special local conditions: if moussakas and souvlaki are described in the Greece food section, there's no need to mention them in the Mykonos section, unless you're recommending someplace there that does these dishes especially well. But local specialties should be described on the specific local page rather than the national one. Sailsetter 19:19, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Image Uploads

Is there any easy way to move pictures uploaded here, to shared - or do you have to vfd them, download them, upload them on shared with a different name, and change the link it the article? Sertmann 06:16, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

You have to re-upload them to Shared, but once you do that you can speedy delete it here, noting in the edit summary that you moved to shared. There's no need to change the title either, it can remain the same – cacahuate talk 12:13, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Hmmm, don't I need admin privileges to speedy anything? Sertmann 15:57, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Yes... so you'll be able to do yourself most likely after another week :) If there's some you want done now, leave a note on my talk page and I can do for you, or you can also just list them on VFD and an admin will do – cacahuate talk 19:43, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

page credits

what are they (like at the bottom of the page) and how do you get on 'em? keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 23:59, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

By editing the page, you get added to the credit. You full name will appear if you give it in preferences, or your nickname if you don't. Eventually, after many people have edited the page after you, your name will just be listed under the "others" link. Quick answer, its done automatically, and you don't have to do anything. --Inas 01:02, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
Oh that's so cool. Thanks! Keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 11:08, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Colored text on project pages

I just opened the Votes for deletion page, only to find it cluttered with bold text, colors and what not - and this annoys the hell out of me, since it ruins my overview of the page (I toned it down a bit now - without asking, check here for old version). Is there a concensus out there that this is a no-no on Project pages (and articles for that matter), since a quick overview is pretty critical for those of us fulfulling janitorial duties (without having to fight a path through a rainbow). Sertmann 18:49, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Guess I should put my 6.7809292999405338540 cents worth into this :>! I am the person who coloured up the page, heh. I honestly think it's inappropriate for articles themselves, but talk/user pages should have this allowed, it add a bit of personality to it and just something neat to look at, rather than the uniform. If it really was so bad, we really shouldn't have that option. I don't know...I was originally just testing out the colour, then I liked it so I tried it with other stuff:P. Also, if it was so bad, why don't we confront cacahuate-who usually changes the colour of the signature and ask caca to stop? I don't know. Just my stupid thoughts. Happy day of the dead, Edmontonenthusiast 18:55, 31 October 2008 (EDT)!
What you do with your signature is up to you for the most part, but a few of us mentioned yesterday in the very conversation where you learned how to color text that it was probably undesirable to the community to use it outside of signatures. Before introducing new things like that we tend to discuss it and agree upon it as well :) – cacahuate talk 19:54, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
I guess I am like a rebel to you all ;). Happy Day of the Dead, Edmontonenthusiast 19:57, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Map mashup

It would be nice to be able to see attractions, hostels and stuff on a map, even if not yet within the Wikitravel website. A web mashup would not be difficult to make if Wikitravel data was available in a somewhat standardized way. If every article uses templates such as <sleep> with an "address" field, then it is possible to transform these addresses into coordinates, for instance with the Google API. Is someone working on anything like this ? Thanks ! Nicolas1981 08:27, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

I've been thinking about that a bit too, although in a different way - I think it would be way cool, to harvest coordinates (e.g from google's API) and mix wikitravel listings with in a google maps type layer. I'd also really like to see a mix of googlemaps and wikitravel for the iPhone/iPod touch. Sertmann 14:55, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
Cool, let's work together! :-) Independently of the user interface we are going to provide, there are some tasks we can do in common:
  • write a parser that would extract all addresses from Wikitravel articles. This is a bit tricky because Wikitravel does not seem to provide database dumps, or have I missed them ?
  • fix the many syntax errors found in the <sleep> and similar listings.
  • geocoordinate the addresses through the Google API.
Would be so cool for people to find nearby cheap restaurants, or attractions within a daytrip distance. Cheers Nicolas1981 23:32, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
I have just read that nobody ever obtained data dumps [6]... Looks like Wikitravel is not so free as I expected :-( This seriously reduces my willingness to implement cool applications using Wikitravel data. It is a pity :-( Nicolas1981 09:58, 2 November 2008 (EST)
The Google Maps API terms of use limits using the Geocoder in this way. --Inas 19:09, 2 November 2008 (EST)
Sorry, what exactly are you referencing when writing "this way" ? Do you mean that what will be useful to us is limited to the Geocoder part of the Google API ? Cheers :-) Nicolas1981 02:09, 3 November 2008 (EST)
Instead of reinventing the wheel, take a look at shared:Tech:Listing map extension, as well as Wikitravel:How to create a map for existing WT/OSM mashup solutions. There's no need to use the Google API, OpenLayers lets you do layering very easily using OSM or other public data sources (cf. my pet project OpenFlights). Jpatokal 07:15, 9 November 2008 (EST)


I know this may sound like so dumb, but, what is the point really of showing that an edit is minor. Sorry if it brings up stuff/is stupid. Keep smiling ,ee talk 12:31, 4 November 2008 (EST).

Minor edits can be excluded from your watchlist. Some users don't want to see spelling corrections and other less-substantial changes appearing on their watchlists. LtPowers 12:33, 4 November 2008 (EST)
No I don't mind seeing it I just don't see the actually idea behind it...but thats me! Keep smiling, ee talk 21:17, 4 November 2008 (EST).

Welcome messages

I just noticed how much we've been slacking off with giving new users the welcome message on their talk page. I think it is important-- I remember when I started here, Andrew gave me a welcome message almost immediately after I created my account, and it showed me that, yes, there are people out there paying attention, there is a community here. I think it's a good thing that can encourage new people to contribute more, so I want to ask everyone to pitch in to keep up with that. If you click on Recent changes and you see that a new account has been created, please just take a moment to create a welcome on their talk page. It doesn't take long at all. All you have to do is put:

{{subst:welcome}} -- ~~~~

If all the regular users here will just get in the habit of this, then no one will have to sit and do dozens and dozens of them in a row like I just did, plus new users may see the message during their first session and be inspired to come back for more sessions later. Thanks! Texugo 02:22, 8 November 2008 (EST)

What I usually do is let them edit a little-then I can make a comment that isnt totally uniform about their edits. Similar to my first message, thanks Jim. Keep smiling, ee talk 22:37, 8 November 2008 (EST).
The bigger problem is that most new users are not getting any message at all. Texugo 06:21, 9 November 2008 (EST)
I agree that people should be welcomed more, and I also agree with User:Edmontonenthusiast that we should probably wait until they actually make an edit. When I'm looking at Recentchanges I find the red or blue talk page link helpful to determine whether someone's new or not, and welcoming people before they make an edit confuses this. You all probably know this already, but you can go to Special:Contributions/newbies to see all the newcomers who have made contributions lately. Looks like they've all been welcomed, so good work to User:Edmontonenthusiast and User:Sertmann. JYolkowski 20:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Whoa, I had not seen that special page before! Really useful, thanks! --Peter Talk 23:12, 11 November 2008 (EST)
I meant to get in here and offer the possibility that it might not be a very good use of time to welcome all new users, for a couple of reasons.
1) most newly registered users aren't actually editing, so they probably just thought they had to register to use the site;
2) a semi-custom message, that at best gives advice or guidance, and at least a thank you for particular work, is much better than what looks like an automated message—that sort of community contact is really helpful in getting good new contributors to stick around;
3) welcome messages to users that are violating Wikitravel policy without letting them know that they are doing something wrong is potentially harmful, as they might take that as a cue to spread their policy violations further.
So, I'd actually question whether going through the new user log to hit everyone with a welcome message at once is useful. I'd argue that it would be far more useful to make sure everyone in the Special:Contributions/newbies list gets a custom message. --Peter Talk 17:07, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I agree, I think it makes the most sense to wait until a user minimally makes an edit and hence shows up in Special:Contributions/newbies, for both those reasons and the one I mentioned above. JYolkowski 18:01, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I agree. 1 personalised messages to a user starting to make constructive edits is worth 100 generic welcome messages to new registrations. --Inas 18:23, 11 December 2008 (EST)


I recently added two nominee's to the Wikitravel:Collaborations of the month in North America. I have yet to get a response excluding my own. I've even asked people in their talk to voice their opinions, I wasn't like doing it for just people to get comments I was doing it because I think they could give a good opinion. Thats all. Now I just don't get it. Keep smiling, ee talk 22:39, 8 November 2008 (EST).

Kid, you still need to learn the virtue of patience :o) That being said, I've made an entry there myself, including some ideas to try and change the dysfunctional concept, and would appreciate some comments. Sertmann 23:04, 8 November 2008 (EST)
At least you have 2 comments. I have NONE for two. Keep smiling, ee talk 23:13, 8 November 2008 (EST).

Maps - Open Street Map

Hiya there! I was just wondering, I know there is Open Street Map, but to use reference for creating maps, is there any other site? I mean OSM is fine, it's just, if you want tto use if for reference, a lot of the maps are incomplete. Keep smiling, ee talk 15:32, 9 November 2008 (EST).

It depends. For U.S. locations, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) has satellite images and topographic maps that are in the public domain (anything from the U.S. government is public domain). I don't know the situation in Canada. You might want to check out the NASA WorldWind application, but it's mostly going to have images of the U.S. LtPowers 16:41, 9 November 2008 (EST)
Good to know for US Cities. Anybody know about Canadian cities? Keep smiling, ee talk 17:07, 9 November 2008 (EST).
Check out the discussion over at OSM [7]. Finding compatible data is a pursued over there, and the chances are if there is an available source someone has either loaded it, or is looking into loading it. --Inas 18:44, 9 November 2008 (EST)
Also Wikitravel_talk:Copyleft#GFDL_and_Creative_Commons Pashley 20:21, 9 November 2008 (EST)
Hmm I don't se how that wiki link thing's helpful-sorry! Happy first day of snow in Edmonton, ee talk 11:37, 11 November 2008 (EST).

A question about docents that I'd like to have an answer.

I guess people thatve been a docent for a while would be the best for this, but I was wondering, is there a really large ammount of people asking questions or is it as I presume-small? Keep smiling, ee talk 17:21, 9 November 2008 (EST).

Wikitravel talk:Docents#Is this working?. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:24, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Sorry - Images

Sorry for making another topic, I really am, but I want to get to the bottom of this. I really want to know-I've waited for a couple days, but do my images (most notably in Edmonton) look low-quality? Keep smiling, ee talk 17:52, 9 November 2008 (EST).

The technical quality (resolution, color range, etc) is just fine, and some of your pics (eg. Image:Winspear.JPG, Image:Skyline_wintaa.JPG) are IMHO artistically good as well. But photography is one of those arts that takes a lifetime to master, and you should pay a little more attention to light and framing, see eg. [8]. And patience comes in handy too, since great photos only happen when the conditions are just right... Jpatokal 03:54, 10 November 2008 (EST)
So other than those two, basically, they suck ;)? Keep smiling, ee talk 13:22, 10 November 2008 (EST).
Pictures are not just "good" or "bad", and beauty is the eye of the beholder. Any picture that accurately represents a local scene and/or makes the reader go "Ooh, that looks nice" is a plus in my book. Jpatokal 02:33, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Thanks, in yours or others opinions though, I'd like to know. Happy first day of snow in Edmonton, ee talk 11:38, 11 November 2008 (EST).

More than a babel?

Sorry if it shouldn't be discussed here, I couldn't find another place. Anyways if you check out some of the user pages in Wikipedia, like: [9], [10], [11], and [12] and look at the spots with babel's, you'd see there is a lot more other stuff. I was wondering if it is possible to have the same in WikiTravel, or to implement it? I think it'd be neat. Keep smiling, ee talk 19:16, 10 November 2008 (EST).

I like the 'language' the second user has in his Babel: "du-0 This person does not understand dumbass (or understands it with considerable difficulties, or does not want to speak dumbass)." When that 'language' is added to Wikitravel, I will certainly add it to my profile!  :)  :) AHeneen 00:53, 11 November 2008 (EST)
While I like the babel, Ithink we can get more and personailize! Good idea? Happy first day of snow in Edmonton, ee talk 11:33, 11 November 2008 (EST).
I agree. And lucky hometown has seen snow only once in recorded history...about a half inch (a little more than 1cm) in "first day of snow" for me!! AHeneen 13:08, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Hehe, here' it'll probably melt tomorrow. It'll probably be off and on until Dec 20 and then it'll stay until about March. Keep smiling, ee talk 13:12, 11 November 2008 (EST).
It's easy enough to add languages into the Babel in Wikitravel. I did it a while ago with Welsh (cy). I just copied the format for all the templates from one of the existing languages, and nicked the definitions for each level from Babel Wikipedia. Obviously if you're trying to set it up for a language you're not that fluent in yourself it makes it much easier if it's already there on Wikipedia. Tarr3n 03:03, 12 November 2008 (EST)
I don't think EE's looking for more languages. I think he/she'd like to have userboxes for other topics like those that are rampant on Wikipedia. LtPowers 09:51, 12 November 2008 (EST)
Eaxactly! I know about the languages. Keep smiling, ee talk 10:30, 12 November 2008 (EST).

So, would people be interested in having this-or is it already on this site? Keep smiling ,ee talk 00:51, 14 November 2008 (EST).

I'd really prefer we didn't. The consensus here has always been against userboxes. Just one reason why I'd prefer we don't is that it would mess up the special:allpages template list. --Peter Talk 01:00, 14 November 2008 (EST)
So then why can Wikipedia have it? TO me it's stupid, its a wonderful oportunity! Why do we need plain jane's when we can have better (not directed necessarily at WT). I don't get it. Seems like your missing out. Keep smiling, ee talk 10:30, 14 November 2008 (EST).
Missing out on what? This is a place for people to write a travel guide, sure we can have a little fun doing it, but this isn't really meant to be a travel version of mySpace. That said, I did create one for my user page, and I wouldn't be against travel-oriented ones like "this user is a couch surfer" or whatever, but I would hate to see it become like Wikipedia too, with endless irrelevant crap – cacahuate talk 04:03, 15 November 2008 (EST)

I found out ya can do more than a babel on Wikitravel, you just gotta know what you want and be aware you can't have the same options as Wikipedia. Check my page. ZOMG meteor on the prairies yesterday!!edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 01:34, 22 November 2008 (EST).

Collaboration of the month revamp

My best intentions of trying to fix the current travesty, ended up in complete and miserable failure. But if nothing else, it shook things up a bit - and there is new discussion of a revamp that have been started on the talk page. it would probably get a bit more interesting, if people knew it was there, and contributed a bit to the (as of now) pretty one sided discussion. Sertmann 02:45, 11 November 2008 (EST)


Don't know if anyone else saw this [13] article in the Sunday Times this week, entitled Why mobile phones are the new travel guides. I hadn't heard of Wikitude [14] before reading the article. It's a system that searches Wikipedia based on location. On the website you can type in an address and search for Wikipedia entries close to it. The Times article was focussed on the version that has been developed for the new generation of mobile phones (US: cell-phones) that have GPS functionality, so it will automatically find entries close to your location and show them on a map. Neat. And surely if it linked up with Wikitravel it would be even more useful? I'm guessing that for it to work we would need to get a lot better at entering lat/long data into our articles (does this even work at the moment?). Have any of the site owners/admins already been in touch with the relevant people at Wikitude? It would be good if we could get on board before someone like Schmap [15] beat us to it. Tarr3n 03:19, 12 November 2008 (EST)

I fully support this idea. It seems tailor-made for Wikitravel. We don't have the encyclopedic detail on attractions that Wikipedia does, but what we do have is locations for restaurants, bars, and hotels that could be cross-indexed with the user's current location. LtPowers 09:54, 12 November 2008 (EST)
We are terribly short on geotagged listings though. But if anyone wants/needs an area to test, all listings of Copenhagen/Northern suburbs have been geotagged. Besides, as far as i understand IB doesn't provide access to data anyway, and assume they want money (or a way to use ads) to open up. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:57, 13 November 2008 (EST)
I'm trying to look into this a bit more today as I think with the increasing availablity of mobile phones with GPS or at least map software installed this is surely the way forward for all travel guides. Unfortunately Wikitude is currently down for a server migration. However digging about on Wikitravel for more information about how these geocodes actually work, I found Wikitravel:Geographical_data_and_metadata, which seems to imply that the existing geocoding format we are using is not usable by any other applications anyway. Or am I reading this wrong? Picking up on Stefan's point about IB allowing access to the data, I don't really understand this and frankly it would make me question my ongoing contributions to this project. Surely all the data here is licensed for re-use? Tarr3n 06:50, 19 November 2008 (EST)

wikitravel slow?¿

I don't know about you, but every morning before about 8:40 am Mountain time (7:40 Pacific, 9:40 Central, 10:40 Eastern, in Europe 4:40, 5:40pm, etc. I believe) I always have WikiTravel really slow. It takes 2 minutes to load a page. But for some reason, after that time about, it's fine. I don't know. I really don't think it's my internet company otherwise it'd be like that all the time. I guess the question is why is it doing that and if anyone else is getting it and if they have it at different times. I also have used other computers that are like that until I don't know. Keep smiling, ee talk 14:02, 12 November 2008 (EST).


I don't know how to delete pages that complete idiots have recently made. Could someone delete them and try and tell me how to for next time? Ugh this guy is pissing me off! Keep smiling, ee talk 18:05, 12 November 2008 (EST).

Only administrators can delete pages. You can nominate pages for deletion at Wikitravel:Votes for deletion, and an administrator will look it over.
Also, the answer to this question could have been easily found with a little research in the Help section. Wikitravel:How to is especially helpful. Just for future reference, you might want to check there for the answers first before posting here. :) PerryPlanet 19:07, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Edmonton/Central nom

Hey, says I can promote here! So I nominated Edmonton/Central for Star nomination, Edmonton Central Star nom! If you can, comment! Thank you! Keep smiling, ee talk 18:35, 13 November 2008 (EST).


Does a travel guide require a place to sleep? Because i have seen travel guides with nothing listed under sleep... is it easier to find places and just added them and then someone can fill in stuff? please inform me thanks --Hayfield 20:22, 13 November 2008 (EST)

It is required from my knowledge. If you see places without listings, you should research and look some up. You are not required to add all informaton from the get-go. You can do it over X amount of time. Definitely easier to just add them and wait for others to add info, but sometimes you may get anxious to add to it yourself, or worse, get impatient! Keep smiling, ee talk 21:10, 13 November 2008 (EST).
See the What is an article discussion, for ideas. Practically, however, as an example there are 322,000 place names in Australia. Adding blank templates for them without any understanding, and hoping someone will come along and fill in the details adds little or no value and would probably bring us no closer to our goals. However, if you know of a travel destination, and some information on it, but don't know if there is a place to sleep there, then add it and someone can come along with the additional details on accommodation and other stuff later. --Inas 21:16, 13 November 2008 (EST)
My policy, whenever possible, is to start off with at least one "useful" thing in any outline (sight, hotel, how to get there, whatever). Once you've got that grain of sand in there, it will turn into a pearl eventually. Jpatokal 05:10, 14 November 2008 (EST)
While exceptions can be made, users whose primary contributions are random articles for small places have a slightly higher bar to climb when creating new articles, especially when their login originates from Portland (Maine). Anything without a sleep listing that can't be justified is a candidate for (speedy) deletion, as discussed on Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:09, 14 November 2008 (EST)
I think it should be clarified that since hotel listings for Regions should be in the cities pages, and for huge cities should be in the district pages, often region and city pages end up having no listings under Sleep. Personally I think that region and huge city pages either should have the Sleep heading deleted or there should be a brief comment under it about accommodations in general with a statement that specific listings will be found in the city or district pages. But so far as I know this isn't required by policy and often isn't done, so many such pages have blank sleep headings. Sailsetter 19:08, 16 November 2008 (EST)

If you want you can have a small list of the best in a city in the main article. Keep smiling, ee talk 19:11, 16 November 2008 (EST).

I'm not sure this is a good idea. It opens the way for hotel owners and others with a special interest to give certain places a recommendation boost by putting them in the "best of" section. It also will encourage everyone to put all their listings in the main article, a tendency which is already a problem. Sailsetter 19:22, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Nah not much a good idea for sleep but it is possible. It's better for buy and do though. Keep smiling, ee talk 19:31, 16 November 2008 (EST).

Person of the month?

I was wondering if we could have something like CotMs, DotMs, and OtbPs! This would be POTM (Person of the Month) where you'd nominate someone within the first errr...10 days of a month, then in the last week, they are decided, and for the next month they are person of the month. Thought it'd be neat to have - because we always honour articles but never really the people who do that work. The person should someone who has done extensive work, friendly, helpful, and has contributed in talk pages I guess. We could work out the specifics later-just wondering if people'd be interested? Keep smiling, ee talk 21:40, 13 November 2008 (EST).

No, no, no & no. That would be totallu out of touch with the spirit of this place, and I don't want this to turn into a popularity contest --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 00:56, 14 November 2008 (EST)'s just a thought! keep smiling, ee talk 10:29, 14 November 2008 (EST).
Don't worry, had i been upset I would have smacked an exclamation mark in your face as well :)-Sertmann

Alright. And I didn't mean it as an angry exclamation marke. Well, I didn't think that it would turn into a popularity contest-but that is a very good point, it may very well happen. But I know one site in particular [16], where they have Member of the Month...there's no popularity contest, but people do nominate anonymously. But then again, that's a forum, this is something different format. But I still do think people deserve applause for all the hard work they've done. I actually would've nominated you, :)! By the way remember to sign your name. Just so much effort is put into these things, people don't even realise! Anyone who has made a star article would definitely deserve this, I am really realizing how much work they put into it. Look at Chicago...that must have been brutal! I don't think we'll see another one of those for a long time-just because of it's brutalness! Anyway, I kind of got some off topic there. But yeah. Keep smiling, ee talk 15:52, 14 November 2008 (EST).

Singling out individuals would in a way go against the spirit of community, which is a concern for many of us. In the past the barn star has been a way to single people out - the idea being that anyone can let anyone else know "I think you've done good stuff" without it turning into an "employee of the month" kind of thing since at any given time there could be no barnstars handed out, or there could be dozens. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:07, 14 November 2008 (EST)

Teaching English NOM

Hey, another nom, I made a [[Wikitravel:Star nominations#Teaching English]|star nom]] (again). It should be interesting! Keep smiling, ee talk 13:06, 14 November 2008 (EST).

Wikitravel Press books now on Amazon

Just wanted to let y'all know that Wikitravel Chicago is now available on, with the rest of the catalogue coming along shortly (by the end of the month if things go according to plan). Wikitravel books are eligible for free super saver shipping, so you can include them in any Amazon order and have them sent for free in the US only if the total is over $25. See the blog, tell your friends, stuff your stockings! Jpatokal 09:21, 15 November 2008 (EST)

What about Canadians? Canadian's have, where this book isn't listed. I guess you can only do it from lulu if you're Canadian, eh? Wait...can you even be a Canadian and sign up for lulu...looking at it you have English (US) or English (UK)...whoah am Igetting off topic! Keep smiling, ee talk 17:17, 15 November 2008 (EST).
Canadia will be added to the list after it becomes our 51st state on Jan 1st – cacahuate talk 18:36, 15 November 2008 (EST)
He!... Anyway Jani, I've actually been wondering about this for a while - are the sales figures public? Or is there anything you can say about the sales? Getting a destination up to print status takes alot of work, and my intuition tells me the sales would be pretty low for a niche guide likes this. Are a figure of 1000-2000 copies of the Chicago guide for example, completely unrealistic? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:57, 15 November 2008 (EST)
Sorry, sales figures are confidential. Jpatokal 23:08, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Well I found out anywhere in the world you can order from American Amazon...but you will hafta pay extra. I might get the Chicago one! Keep smiling, ee talk 22:11, 15 November 2008 (EST).

Unfortunately our new print partner CreateSpace supports only at the moment, but they deliver anywhere in the world. We're talking with Amazon Europe (who run .de and, but I'm not expecting to get online there anytime soon. Jpatokal 23:08, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Approval needed?

Hi, I'm new to Wikitravel and thought I could improve the Yekaterinburg article. I'm just a little confused if there is an approval needed? I edited the page yesterday and it was looking fine and is still listed as the current version, however, the article only shows the version from before I edited it. Is this expected behaviour? Do the main articles only get cached so often? Thanks in advance, FreakRob 13:12, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Nah, you don't need approval...Wikitravel recently underwent a serverchange and sometimes the latest version doesn't go. Although you can do one of the two things to fix that: 1) reload, if that doesn't work 2) go into history, click the latest version, and it should be there. Edit it again, and it should be fine. Keep smiling, ee talk 13:14, 15 November 2008 (EST).


Thought it'd be a neat thing to do on Wikitravel, I looked through archives, and it isn't there. So, maybe we could have this for Wikitravel, [17]? What tdo you thinnk? KEEP SMILING, ee talk 19:16, 16 November 2008 (EST).

Red "!" on Special:Recentchanges

Hey! Well I have a question what the hell is this when you look at RECENT CHANGES: !...I don't get it. Its a red exclamation mark!!!! Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:29, 17 November 2008 (EST).

It means that the edit is not patrolled. See [18] for more information. BTW, do we use the patrolled edit feature at Wikitravel for anything and, if so, what does it mean to "mark [an] edit as patrolled" (i.e. does it mean (a) "the edit is correct", (b) "the edit isn't correct, but it's not obvious vandalism or spam", (c) something else)? JYolkowski 17:56, 17 November 2008 (EST)

It's showing up for 90 % of the edits on Recent Changes and this neva happened! Keep smiling ,edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:58, 17 November 2008 (EST).

Wikitravel:Recent_changes_patrol - note "registered for over 30 days". Dguillaime 18:27, 17 November 2008 (EST)
That's not true, I patrol over so often, it's just the frequency of edits are so massive it's impossible to keep up, with so few chipping in the work. On that note I actually have a question - Is it possible to mark all revisions up to I read through an article as patrolled - would be useful when a user does like 20 edits on page within a short span of time - it's get tiresome to mark every single edit as patrolled. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:48, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Yes, if you enable "enhanced recent changes" in your preferences, that will group edits by page, and you can mark as patrolled from the grouped "dif". --Peter Talk 20:53, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Thanks! I find the enchanted version a bit confusing and poorly designed, but maybe I should let it stay for a while and see if I can get used to it. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 21:04, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Image use

I have two image-related questions:

  • 1) I wanted to upload a satellite picture of Hurricane Jeanne to use on the Florida page and possibly the city pages of various Florida cities. I know that the photographs taken by US government employees taken in the course of their duties is in the public domain for upload, but what about a satellite photograph taken by an agency(NOAA/NHC)? There is a FEMA photograph on the tornado safety page, but it lists the link to the photograph on FEMA's website. I know the website for the agency (, but I downloaded(right-click "save as") the picture a long time ago (2004) and the satellite imagery on the site is real-time and there is no archive to link to or to find the picture. Can I upload such a picture giving the link I mentioned?
  • 2) On Wikitravel Shared [19], there is information regarding the template for images from Flickr, but not licensing information (on "How to Upload Files" nor "Image Policy" nor "copyleft license" pages). Are all images on Flickr in the public domain or copyleft-license compatible? Could someone please explain the process of uploading pictures to Wikitravel shared (as I said, I've seen the info on the Fickr template)?
  • Thanks for the help!! AHeneen 02:34, 18 November 2008 (EST)
I can answer question (2). Flickr users can set their own copyright or licensing for each image they upload. Some (most, in fact) are listed as "All rights reserved", meaning they are not licensed for use here. Others have Creative Commons licenses. You can use the Advanced Search functionality to specifically find pictures with a Creative Commons License. So for example, searching on "hurricane" finds 384,166 results, but if I click on "Advanced Search", scroll to the bottom of the page and tick all 3 of the Creative Commons boxes, the results are filtered down to 8,721 results. If you click through to the photo page, there is information about the photo on the right-hand side of the screen, including licensing info which you can click on for full details of the license. Hope this helps. Tarr3n 05:31, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Thanks! Did I correctly do this: here's the file in Wikitravel Shared [20], and here in Flickr [21].
Looks OK to me... Tarr3n 06:20, 18 November 2008 (EST)
On a related note, Wikitravellers looking for photos of UK and Ireland destinations should check out Geograph [22], where all the photos have a CC license. If you click through to download a photo it even automatically generates the code you need for Wikipedia, which is easily adapted for Wikitravel upload. Very useful. Tarr3n 06:25, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Regarding #1, as long as the satellite image was taken by a USG agency (and not all the ones they use are), and as long as nothing has been added by a third party, the satellite images are in the Public Domain. --Peter Talk 13:50, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Alright, I've uploaded image #1, which can be found here given a Public Domain (created by a US gov't employee...) license and attributed to NOAA. I think it makes a nice addition to the Florida page! Thanks everyone for answering my questions!! AHeneen 20:34, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Policy fellowships, anyone?

Google has a number of summer fellowships for students to work on Internet policy issues. Among the hosts, listed at [23], are Creative Commons [24] whose license we use here and the EFF [25] whose advocacy on net.freedom affects us all. Any students here want to apply? Any teachers have students who should?

For that matter, should WT offer to host some students? Adding new hosts is still possible. Pashley 23:50, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Tour agencies

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but I don't know where. For apartment agencies, we have the policy that they must have a physical address, and that the listing only appear in the article of the destination where that physical office is located. I would like to think that the same applies for companies that arrange tours, if we allow them at all. For example, the Do section of the Brazil article currently lists a couple of such agencies. Can someone point me to the appropriate place where discussion of this issue is? I'm sure I've come across it before, but haven't found it just now. Texugo 07:44, 21 November 2008 (EST)

tour. I love this policy. --Peter Talk 14:30, 21 November 2008 (EST)
I think direct only is the best policy. Think of how many tour agencies we would have in HCMC is we allowed every tour agency with a physical sddress there. Tour companies should only be listed here if they own a bus, and take people around. People can always find an agency to book with if they want one. No agencies, no consolidators. Apartment listings only when direct to the apartment leasor, i.e the person who will give you the key, not to an agency or consolidator. Anything else could 1000's of agencies in even small cities.. floodgates... --Inas 16:28, 24 November 2008 (EST)


almost there people woo hoo -- 11:49, 22 November 2008 (EST)

We've hit it! → Sarrebruck. Sadly, our 20,000th article is in French... --Peter Talk 15:29, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Seriously, dude, isn't it Fort Saskatchewan? After I created it I looked at the main page and it turned to 20,000 I remember precisely! I know! Keep Smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 15:36, 22 November 2008 (EST).
Ack, you are right—I jumped on that too quickly. Anyway, I'm glad that our 20,000th isn't an accidental article in French ;) --Peter Talk 15:45, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Haha, Peter you're hilarious! So long as that's cleared up I'm happy to have contributed to such a monumental thing. Keep Smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 15:47, 22 November 2008 (EST).
Funny thing is, there is already an article in French for that destination! --AHeneen 03:42, 24 November 2008 (EST)
It looks like one was copied from the other -- note the [edit] links in the prose on the fr: version. LtPowers 08:40, 24 November 2008 (EST)


So I discovered how to go about adding travel news today and I was going to ask if we could include large national holidays as news. Anyways, I am reminded of how Wikipedia has an "On this day..." section. While it would certainly be too much of a hassle to update something like that on a daily basis, I was thinking that maybe we could add a section on the main page with the current month's worth of holidays (well, major holidays at least). Wikipedia articles for the months list holidays, so the hard work has been done for us! We could list the holidays on the main page, with a separate page listing both the holiday and description (just a few sentences, as seen below). So for instance:

July Holidays

  • July 1 Canada Day, Canada. Canada Day is marked by...blah blah.
  • July 1 Hong Kong SAR Establishment Day, Hong Kong. Establishment day is marked by...blah blah.
  • July 4 Independence Day, United States. In the United States, Independence Day (or also the "Forth of July") is a national holiday on which most workers receive a day off. Many Americans celebrate the day with picnics, grilling foods (such as hamburgers, hot dogs, ribs), heading to the beach/shore, and casual events with friends and families. From major cities to towns of 10,000, many municipalities in the United States host a parade and the vast majority host a fireworks display after dusk. The day is filled with patriotic music and images and flags are certainly not in short supply. If the holiday lies on a weekend, many workers will take the adjacent day off to create a long weekend. For travelers renting a vehicle, expect inter-city highways to be crowded on the days surrounding July 4th and for police vehicles to be blatant and numerous along roads. Additionally, hotels in coastal cities may charge higher-than-normal rates around this day and may have few, if any, vacancies. Nevertheless, the Forth of July is a great day for travelers to experience the patriotic spirit and enjoy free festivities no matter where in the US you may be.
  • July 6-14 San Fermín, Spain. Most notable for the running of the bulls, this festival...blah blah.
  • July 10 Independence Day, Bahamas. In the Bahamas, Independence Day is celebrated by...blah blah.
  • July 12 Battle of the Boyne, Ireland & Northern Ireland. The Battle of the Boyne is remembered on this day by...blah blah.
  • July 13-16 Bon Festival, Japan (dates vary by region). Bon Festival is celebrated in Japan by...blah blah.
  • July 14 Bastille Day, France. Also known as Le quatorze juillet, this holiday marks...
  • etcetera

Of course, we needn't list every holiday, but at least the major ones in which there are events/festivities of note for travelers. So for the US (which, being an American, is what I can relate to), we wouldn't need to list "Presidents Day" or "Flag Day", but the culture surrounding the 4th of July or Thanksgiving(and maybe even Black Friday) would be of interest to travelers. If a holiday spans more than 1 country (mostly religious holidays, like Christmas or Ramadan) or is specific to one but also celebrated in places worldwide (Chinese New Year, St.Patrick's Day) listing would look like:

  • December 25 Christmas, Christians/others. Note that Armenians celebrate Christmas on Jan 6, Orthodox Christians (mostly in Eastern Europe & the Middle East) on Jan 7. Christmas is celebrated with varying customs by region. This is a day spent mostly in the home with family, and as a result is the least busy day (commercially) of the year. In western nations, many non-Christians celebrate the day as a secular, cultural festival...leading to even higher numbers of people celebrating the holiday (96% in the US for instance). For the tourist, the fact that Christmas day is celebrated by so many means that the day will be spent inactive, as nearly all businesses and tourist attractions will be closed.
  • August 22-Sep 20 Ramadan(dates vary annually), Muslims. The month of Ramadan in the Muslim world is marked by dawn to dusk fasting. Visitors to predominately Muslim countries should note that, while not expected to fast themselves, restaurants open during daylight are almost nonexistent. However, in many cities, this month lends to bustling restaurant/nightlife scene for a few hours after dusk...blah blah.
  • March 17 St.Patrick's Day, Ireland & Irish communities worldwide. St.Patrick's Day is celebrated in Ireland by...blah blah. Outside of Ireland, festivities may include...blah blah.

So the point is that 2 things would need to be mentioned in a holiday's description: what the holiday celebrates(ie. the independence of [country] on [date]), what happens on the holiday/how is it celebrated(ie. picnics, fireworks, parades, etc), and what are its implications to the traveler(ie. on Christmas, most businesses are closed throughout predominately Christian nations, however airfare is considerably cheaper than surrounding days in the US). I think this would be a great idea for Wikitravel as a means to celebrate culture and guide Wikitravelers. Of course, there are potential problems and policies would need to be created regarding: 1) establishing a line between holidays and festivals (to keep the clutter down), 2) keeping up with refreshing holidays on he main page, 3) do we list by date or by region then date, and 3)the line between which holidays should be included and which should be excluded (every nation celebrates its independence day, but is that day in every nation notable for travelers?). The holidays could be kept as separate articles (ie June holidays, July holidays, etc) so that they would only need to be updated every year for holidays with various start-dates. I don't know how to make a template for holiday listings, nor how to rework the main page...but I would certainly be willing to work on the articles (with what I know, with Wikipedia's help) So what's everyone's opinion? Feedback? AHeneen 10:30, 26 November 2008 (EST)

I think you might be on to a neat idea, but why focus solely on the big holidays most people have heard of? It might be more interesting to feature a selection of random interesting things from whatever location that people might not have heard of. Then it could be different every year too. Texugo 07:32, 28 November 2008 (EST)
Maybe we could do the same thing as destinations, and divide holidays into major ones(like DotM) and minor ones worth noting(like OtBP).AHeneen 22:41, 28 November 2008 (EST)
Personally, I don't see any reason to remind everyone of the obvious big ones like Christmas, Easter, New Year's.. Unless.... Well, thinking about it more, perhaps the items featured should not be the holidays themselves but, rather, a particular destination's celebration of a given holiday. So rather than featuring US Independence day as a whole (which is more wikipedia-like), we select a city that has a unique or pronounced way of celebrating it; i.e. what is there for a traveller to do and see on Independence day in, say, New York City? (daytime events in Central Park, massive fireworks display at the Statue of Liberty, etc.). What would a tourist not want to miss seeing in Bangkok during Songkram? What about Carnaval in Olinda? Obon in Kyoto? Easter in Rome? What do you think? Texugo 02:31, 29 November 2008 (EST)

In my belief:

  • most holiday info should be destination-centric (i.e. traveler first chooses a destination, and for it he finds out what's special about how the specific holiday is celebrated in the destination chosen). An example I have is New Year holidays in Hungary (pitifully the most important part "Local traditions" is still empty)
  • at the same time, some holiday-centric info can make sense; I have early drafts on New Year travel in general, see Talk:Travel topics#New Year Travel and User:DenisYurkin/New Year Travel as the first steps to implement the idea.

Overall, I believe some info on holidays would be really useful; great to find out I'm not alone here :-) --DenisYurkin 17:11, 20 December 2008 (EST)


OK, this might be a bit specific for the pub, but I'd like some comments on the use of info boxes as I seem to be breaking the standard on some of my district articles

I don't think I've turned the article into something akin to wikipedia, which seems to be the main concern - the function is mainly to separate out content, that don't really warrant it's own article, but don't really mix well with the main content either. Christiania in particular is a special case, since it's essentially a city within the city, but doesn't offer sleeping options - and doesn't have enough content (as of now anyway) to work as a separate district (same case as the Vatican I suppose).

I'll sweep this into the Copenhagen talk page once I've gotten some comments, and please don't worry about the images on the Christianshavn district, They're there merely as a place holder, until I finish up the article.

--Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:10, 27 November 2008 (EST)

My take is as follows. The Tivoli infobox is appropriate, though I do think it should be trimmed down a little more. The Christiania infobox would work better as a district article of Copenhagen-- the "must-have-a-place-to-sleep" rule doesn't have to be rigid when it comes to districts with plenty to see, do and eat. The Mølleå river infobox could go either way-- if there is enough interesting information to be added it could potentially make an itinerary article. Otherwise it ought to be pruned and reworded a bit so as not to take up quite so much space. Hope that helps! Texugo 07:43, 28 November 2008 (EST)

Talk notification suggestion

I wonder if it wouldn't be productive to make a new user's first talk page notification somehow more obvious than just the little red dot. If you are a long time contributor, you've probably experienced many cases where a new user is contributing things which fall outside of our guidelines-- you revert their changes, they continue to add them, you leave a message on their talk page but they seem to never notice it. New users may not realize that we are an interactive community that works in real time, and may even be frustrated at seeing their contributions disappear, not having realized that an explanation was already given them. Anyone have any thoughts? Texugo 11:56, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Oh yes! I know this one firsthand and we should do something. After the first one it should just bee the nice red dot. That blatant thing should also say that there is a red dot. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:08, 1 December 2008 (EST).
I agree, this would be a really good idea. In the meantime (I'm assuming this isn't something that could get done right away as I assume it would require a software change), maybe we could add something to MediaWiki:Welcomecreation explaining what the red dot means? JYolkowski 18:45, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Good idea. Why don't we do what Wikipedia does, with that big, bold message at the top of the page? Doesn't get much more obvious than that. PerryPlanet Talk 12:04, 3 December 2008 (EST)
Support. A full-width one-liner that is like confirmation of operation in GMail definitely attracts attention and serves the purpose. --DenisYurkin 10:25, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Yah! edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 12:21, 3 December 2008 (EST).


Okay why does this site keep freezing at times recently? I don't get it. I am sorry if this IS the wrong place. Anyways thanks. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:05, 1 December 2008 (EST).

Perhaps the servers are in Edmonton, and they freeze whenever someone opens the door? --Inas 19:30, 2 December 2008 (EST)
LOL. No they are in Winnipeg where the building dont have insulation and everyone there is freezing their tooshie off as a grandma would say ;). edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:33, 2 December 2008 (EST).

Minimum listing?

Is there a minimum of information required for a hotel, restaurant, or other listing? If a hotel listing has only the hotel name, or only the name and a web site, should it be removed? I see a lot of these. The listing policy doesn't seem entirely clear on this: it suggests what information should be there, but it doesn't say what minimum is required, that I could see. Personally, I think a listing with only a name or only a name and link should be removed; it's not much use in a print-out. Sailsetter 18:58, 2 December 2008 (EST)

But someone might come along and expand it later. I would say leave it, in anything below a guide article. Once the article is already a guide, any additional entries should then be high quality, I would say. --Inas 19:29, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Even just the name and contact info (web site, phone, e-mail) of a hotel can be useful if you're trying to arrange lodging in advance. Alingelb 04:22, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Yes, but some don't even have that. Sailsetter 09:57, 10 December 2008 (EST)

How to make a disambiguation page for Kenwood?

I wanted to work on Kenwood Ca, a town very close to my home town, but after typing in Kenwood I was redirected to Chicago/South Chicago Shore.

I would like to make a disambiguation page but I don't know how. I would love to learn. Anyone want to teach me?

--Trew 19:13, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Create the Kenwood (disambiguation) page. Copy another, say look at Sutherland (disambiguation). Then decide whether the Kenwood page redirect should be changed to Kenwood (disambiguation), or whether a link to the disambiguation page should be added to the top of the Chicago/South Chicago Shore article. The former is easy just change the redirect page by editing the Kenwood page. If you decide to do the latter, look at the the way it is done in Sydney. If you can't decide which to do, just discuss it on the article talk page, and reach a consensus. It really depends on the significance of the other Kenwood for travellers. --Inas 19:35, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Disambiguated. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 16:41, 5 December 2008 (EST)

Thanks for all your help. I am going to get started on making the Kenwood, Ca guide once the holidays are over. Trew 19:54, 18 December 2008 (EST)

World Heritage Expedition

I've kickstarted a World Heritage Expedition to update and complete our list of UNESCO World Heritage Sites and knock off one of the last remaining Wikitravel milestones. There's a fair bit of work to be done, but there are "only" 878 sites, so this is eminently doable. Chip in! Jpatokal 23:09, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Yay, just to make sure, a country is done even if the linked pages are stubs? e.g. Denmark would be considered complete as it is? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 23:24, 6 December 2008 (EST)
Yes, at least in my opinion. Jpatokal 00:19, 7 December 2008 (EST)

Wikilinks in listings?

Hi, would it be possible to implement the ability to have wiki links inside of listing tags in any of the fields? This would really help to make a proper listing out of a location when the location has an own article and one just wants to outline it's there and why the travellers should go see it. --FreakRob 05:29, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Uhh, that's not what listings are for, really. Can you give an example? Why not just use a plain old paragraph? Jpatokal 05:49, 8 December 2008 (EST)
I'm guessing he's looking for something like: <see name="[[Walt Disney World Resort]]"></see>. The other fields in the see tag could be useful and would allow the listing for WDW to look the same as the listings for the other attractions in the list. LtPowers 10:29, 8 December 2008 (EST)


Where can I get information on the number of people visiting Wikitravel, the demographics of visitors, which pages are the most popular, etc.; Wikitravel's stats? Paula 00:20, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Hi Paula. Is this what you're looking for? Texugo 01:11, 9 December 2008 (EST)
Also Alexa[26] might be useful - it's actually interesting how we compare to and, but at the same time we're really lacking behind But yeah, it sucks the webalizer stat's have been disabled, and the google analytics stats collected here, is not publicly available. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 01:17, 9 December 2008 (EST)
A bit Related, using this graph you can (totally unscientifically) approximate that we get around 10-15.000 unique visitors per day (traffic rises drasticly in the northern hemisphere's summer) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 01:37, 9 December 2008 (EST)
Thanks for info Texugo and Stefan. Alexa has most of the info I was looking for but doesn't go into as much detail such as which pages are visited most (for example: Japan, Cancun, etc.) Stefan, you say we're lagging behind tripadvisor? From Alexa's stats, looks like WikiT is way ahead. Which stat are you referring to? I was judging it by the rankings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paula (talkcontribs)

Hmmm, no checked it, and they rank around 200-300 while we rank hover around 4000-5000. Anyway, find some other stats here, which includes demographics, and they claim WT to get 583.000 unique visitors per month, or 45.000 per day, which is much higher - and this figure only includes visitors from the US - wow! --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 04:25, 10 December 2008 (EST)

I see what you were reading. is better. WT is actually posted as being 22,000/day. Looks like the daily is calculated as an average of individual days. Unfortunately unlike Alexa, Quantcast only tracks US internet users. Interestingly enough for they compare global stats as well. Another related question, since WikiT doesn't accept ads why do google's ads show up on the site?Paula 03:36, 11 December 2008 (EST)

They are used to help pay for the site. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:34, 11 December 2008 (EST).

Yes, I know that's what they are there for. My question is basically who would a person contact if they wanted their ads to show up on WikiTravel? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paula (talkcontribs)
You could make a proposal at shared:Talk:Advertising policy, but in general the community has been pretty against advertising... we've allowed for WT Press, since it's a related project and there was no opposition, google ads on the other hand caused a bit of a stir. I can't imagine third-party ads will be popular – cacahuate talk 21:39, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Reproductions of Copyrighted Materials

So... I'd like to add some of the Canadian provincial highway shields to maps. Unfortunately, many of them are copyrighted. I'm guessing tracing one is off limits (it would be a derivative work of copyrighted material). Does anyone know how to work around this without violating the copyright. A couple of things I thought off are:

  • try to create one that looks the same, but do it free-hand
  • create one that is similar looking but leaves out certain features so it is not an exact replica

Any thoughts? Shaund 19:40, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Would [these] work? --Peter Talk 19:56, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Unfortunately they don't help much (I actually have that page bookmarked already!). Those are the Trans-Canada signs plus two of the provinces. I've found signs I can use for about 5 or 6 of the provinces so far. The big problems are BC and Alberta. Wikipedia/Commons treats all of their highway shields as a non-free logo. It sounds like Ontario is the same, but someone created simplified versions (i.e., my second bullet point) to get around it. I'm leaning towards doing it for those shields I can't find public domain/CC versions of, but would like to see if there are any other options. Shaund 20:34, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Ontario shields, at least the 400-series ones, should be public domain, according to Commons. For any provincial highways whose shields aren't PD, I recommend a generic square or circle design, something like Wikipedia:Commons:Image:MA Route 2.svg or the "generic" default route markers used by some U.S. states (Wikipedia:Commons:Circle_signs). LtPowers 21:23, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Shaund is right, and good for bringing this up. Not so sure of BC, but Shaund knows well so I assume it is, but I guess BC has the problem AB has. Yes we have the TransCanada, Secondary/Non Special Major, and Series 400 Highways, great. But a lot of canadian highways have unique symbols that dont have similarities to others. One example of a major highway that is this is the QEII (Queen Elizabeth highway 2) in Alberta, [27],. which runs from Calgary to Edmonton. There is highway two whcih uses a generic symbol on the highway outside of the leg of Edm-Cal. But that isn't such a major one, and we already have that logo. A few places still use the generic QEII symbol that was used, but that is because it only recently changed.edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 16:07, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Thanks for the comments. I took a closer look at the Ontario shields and they're OK because the copyright expired. I'll use a very generic design for those provinces whose shields are still covered by copyright. At some point, I'll try to summarize the status for all the provinces and put it up on the map making or regional map page. Shaund 01:42, 12 December 2008 (EST)

It could be a new expedition! edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 11:01, 12 December 2008 (EST).


From what I've tried, .svg cannot be shown on Wikitravel? I've found a highway sign on Wikimedia Commons and uploaded it to Shared ([28]), but when trying to put it in an article, it shows up as:
. Any way around this? If not, can I take a screenshot (which would take me 2 seconds) and upload it with the same license, credit, etc...only that it would be in .png format? AHeneen 01:35, 11 December 2008 (EST)
The ideal thing would be to open it in a program that reads SVG files and can save it or export it as a PNG (like Inkscape or Illustrator). If you don't have those programs, what you proposed should be fine, as long as you attribute the source back to the original SVG file (and the image file is compatible with our licensing, which Interstate signs are). Shaund 02:08, 11 December 2008 (EST)
shared:Tech:Render SVG images as PNG images appears to have been the most recent word on the subject. I think it might be worthwhile to discuss turning SVG rendering back on. Mediawiki's rendering is good enough for Wikipedia. LtPowers 10:06, 11 December 2008 (EST)
There's one big potential downside to enabling SVG rendering, one from which I think Wikimedia Commons is really suffering. If we just display SVGs instead of exported PNGs, it becomes necessary to save a separate SVG file for each translated file (like translated maps). This really gets in the way of updating maps and other images, as it would then be necessary to change each SVG file, rather than just modify the one base SVG and then run an exports for each language version. --Peter Talk 17:11, 11 December 2008 (EST)
Oh, right. I thought of that once before and forgot. =) LtPowers 08:22, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Imported into Inkscape, exported as PNG and used the same license/attribution. It is now here and fits nicely in the Interstate 4 article. Thank you both for your comments. AHeneen 10:19, 11 December 2008 (EST)


Feel free to disagree with it but I was thinking, would it be beneficial to have hair and nail and spa places integrated into the guides? It would call for a new template, but for citys it would be great. A lot of people want to go to hair salons and spas when on holidays. What do you think? edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:04, 11 December 2008 (EST).

They would go under "cope." For most Western cities, where there are tons of English speaking hair salons around, I don't think it's terribly useful to list them. But upmarket spas might be a nice thing to include. --Peter Talk 17:14, 11 December 2008 (EST)
Good point. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:57, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Please don't list these. A spa, such as one would find in a place like Palm Springs or Santa Barbara is valuable as people drive hundreds of miles to visit it, but a simple nail salon or barber shop can be found in the yellow pages and doesn't belong in a travel guide. Listing businesses like nail salons, barber shops, gas stations, or grocery stores for cities that have more than a handful of businesses is inappropriate as it becomes a Wikitravel:Slippery slope towards creating a yellow pages guide, which we definitely don't want to do. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:41, 11 December 2008 (EST)
So, only spas? Note - I will only list hair places if it is a salon spa kind of thing, is that okay? Groceries can be useful and I have seen them in a few articles. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:53, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Please re-read what Peter and I wrote. Peter indicated "upmarket spas might be OK" while I indicated that listing a spa is really only appropriate when it's a place that people would travel to visit. To make this simpler, before listing something like a nail salon, gas station, or grocery store make sure it meets one of the following two criteria: 1) the establishment is rare for the area. Example: a visitor to a remote town will want to know if there are gas and groceries in that town, but a visitor to Los Angeles can assume that it will be easy to find both. 2) the establishment is so noteworthy that anyone with any familiarity with the location would recommend it. Example: drug stores aren't notable, but Wall Drug is known internationally. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:01, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I understand. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:04, 11 December 2008 (EST).

PAGENAME function

Is there a function similar to {{PAGENAME}} that doesn't include parentheticals like (city) and doesn't include the hyphen or things before it? i.e. would display "Deep Ellum" instead of "Dallas/Deep Ellum", or "Vernon" instead of "Vernon (Texas)"..? I should think it would be useful if there were but have no idea how to make one. Texugo 19:58, 15 December 2008 (EST)

Thinking a bit more, surely something like this must exist, since the page name fed to the browser window doesn't include these. I was primarily thinking that if there were such a function or if someone could make one, we could plop it into our article templates, and it would eliminate the all-too-frequent occurences of new contributors making an article and forgetting to fill in the blanks, resulting in new pages that literally begin with, for example,
City name is a city in Region name
Texugo 20:09, 15 December 2008 (EST)
SUBPAGENAME should be a start, if does half of what you want. --Inas 21:03, 15 December 2008 (EST)
This doesn't quite work but maybe it'll spark another idea. On a non-subpage, the code [[{{subst:SUBPAGENAME}}|]] should do what you want; only problem is that this will render as a wikilink (although as a wikilink on its own page renders on bold and as that's what you want in the lead sentence, not a big problem); however, on a subpage it'll render as a link to a different page, which is a problem. JYolkowski 22:46, 15 December 2008 (EST)

I couldn't find any MediaWiki magic word that removes disambiguators. It does seem like there must be a function somewhere, though, for the reason you stated. Might want to ask around at the Shared pub where the tech guys hang out. =) LtPowers 21:50, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Good idea. Will do. Texugo 02:14, 17 December 2008 (EST)
What about {{#explode:{{SUBPAGENAME}}|{|0}}, am I getting warmer, or do I still need to refine the spec document? --Inas 23:13, 17 December 2008 (EST)
Just tried that. It doesn't appear to remove parentheticals. Texugo 23:20, 17 December 2008 (EST)
Okay, What about {{#explode:{{SUBPAGENAME}}| (|0}}. See User:Inas/one two three (four) Thanks for your patience. --Inas 23:53, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Maybe a good idea but with districts I think we should still have the city's name, but maybe not a slash. IE: Dallas Deep Elm or Deep Elm , Dallas instead from Dallas/Deep elm. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 00:10, 18 December 2008 (EST).

Might want to rethink that, ee. The first sentence always gives you that information anyway. It's pretty redundant to say "Dallas Deep Ellum is a district of Dallas", not to mention ungrammatical. Texugo 00:14, 18 December 2008 (EST)

I'm going to implement this template inside the header of the routebox template to get rid of the need to manually type the placename in. Thanks again, Inas. Texugo 00:16, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Article Template Headings . . .

Hey! I totally understand if you don't want to go through with this, but I have been thinking maybe some headers in templates for articles should be changed. Some that come to mind:

  • Buy - Shopping, is more general. Buy just seems more as specific items you cant get anywhere else or specific stores, which are fine, but it isnt the whole thing.
  • Drink - Nightlife - just seems more of what drink is really about. It helps travelers know that this isn't about cafés or smoothies, but alcohol.
  • Sleep - Accommodation, no real reason, just sounds more appropriate.
  • Eat, this one is difficult. I came up with a few but I am not sure, maybe Eat is just fine.. It thought: Food, Food and Coffee, Cafés/Restaurants, Food and Non Alcoholic Drinks, Cuisine.

Fine to disagree or if you think theres better words. Now, I am not saying everyone must go back and change every article if it is agreed upon, but if you see it, change it, and perhaps have it as automatic template for new. Anyways, what do you think? edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:50, 16 December 2008 (EST).

I'd read through this first, since this issue has been discussed in great detail. --Peter Talk 18:56, 16 December 2008 (EST)
Perhaps we need a summary of "What the section names mean", outside of the current article templates. Its one of the first things people need to know to understand and contribute to a guide. Is there a article already somewhere, that I've never noticed? --Inas 19:24, 16 December 2008 (EST)
I'd say the best place to direct someone would be to the Wikitravel:Small city article template. But Wikitravel:Where you can stick it article goes over the issue in the most depth. Or did you have something else in mind? --Peter Talk 20:24, 16 December 2008 (EST)
Wikitravel:Small city article template misses some, like Cope, Stay Healthy, etc. To find what they all mean, you may have to go through nearly all of the templates (even after you decided that the templates was the right place to look). Wikitravel:Where you can stick it gives the reverse. Given a topic, it directs to a heading. I'm thinking of a Where it is stuck, mapping headings to what they mean. --Inas 21:48, 16 December 2008 (EST)
I have also noticed the lack of such documentation, aside from the "reverse index" on Wikitravel:Where you can stick it. (That section is a good start, but not comprehensive.) The templates have some documentation but focus on the difference among the templates, rather than the similarities. LtPowers 10:23, 17 December 2008 (EST)


So I was browsing YouTube this evening and for some, unwieldy reason, I decided to search for "Wikitravel". I stumbled across one video (I know there's a page somewhere on WT which lists media mentions), and got an idea...since new users have such a hard time figuring out the proper way of adding, what to add, etc. even with all the pages about this, should we make a video? How about an "Introduction to Wikitravel" no more than 2 minutes long which just goes over the basics like how to edit, MoS, don't tout, goals and non-goals, etc? I know we've got a lot of things going on with the new routeboxes and making a video would take someone a bit of time, but would it be worth it? This is just a thought...I'm not intent that we do this, it's just a thought. AHeneen 20:05, 16 December 2008 (EST)

I think it would be a great idea. But I also think we should keep what we got. Just so people could have a visual/hear aid and it would get people revved on editing. Personally, I wouldn't use it because I find vid tutorials have wayyy too small screeen and I can't get anything so I just use word tutorials. But for others, other people seem to like it. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 20:44, 16 December 2008 (EST).
I did not suggest getting rid of the pages...just make a short video to summarize those pages. AHeneen 20:56, 16 December 2008 (EST)
Bud, I am not accusing you, ok? I am not turning it on you. All Imma saying is that we should still have the normal pages along with a vid - I didn't accuse you. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 21:52, 16 December 2008 (EST).

Traveling with pets

I like to travel with my dog (Šelma [29]), but there is almost no info on that topic. I have some ideas:

  • Pet restrictions in counries (guarantees, pet passports, vaccination)
  • Pet restrictions/prices on trains, buses, ...
  • Pet safety (potential diseases like rabies or canina distemper, approarch of locals, ...)

I have started to write something like that in Czech republic article. What do you think about it?Multimotyl 22:50, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Not something I would personally find useful, but I think it's a good idea all the same. I think we should stick to basic info rather than try to get into to much detail about it. Your info on travelling by train with a pet in the Czech Republic is a good example of this. Maybe a subsection of "Cope" would be the relevant place for it, rather than having a wee bit about pets in "Get In", another in "Get Around" and another in "Stay Safe", which I can see might happen? Tarr3n 05:41, 18 December 2008 (EST)
Seems like a great idea to me. - Alingelb 07:56, 18 December 2008 (EST)
Great, hope someone writes something about UK. I feel confused about their policy even after consultation with my vet.

Bold Tags

I have been working on the California wine country lately and I have been wondering if it is appropriate to put bold tags at the end of listing for example

  • Restaurant Y, xxx Main street. Bla bla bla review. Families romantic or Thai Food

So that people can scan through the article really quick and find something that fits what they need. The type of food or type of location, like good for families or a romantic date.

Any thoughts? Trew 20:02, 18 December 2008 (EST)

I suspect most people will prefer not to use bold tags for that kind of thing as typically bold is used only for really important information (example: "travelers should be aware that there are severe penalties for drug trafficking in Singapore"), but as long as you don't mind people potentially editing your work later you're welcome to see how it works out - if it turns out well and is useful then others may begin following your example. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:36, 18 December 2008 (EST)
I think we need something like this--I tried to use Wikitravel in my trips specifically to find a restaurant of a particular sort, and near me--and 2 or 3 keywords would be really helpful in my experience. So--definitely support. --DenisYurkin 16:38, 20 December 2008 (EST)


I'm de-touting some and reverting those that aren't actually in the correct location, but only for Maryland locations. Someone may want to fix the rest of these. I wouldn't object to a massive revert, since the user seems to be operating in bad faith, but there is some useful information there. --Jonboy 11:19, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Enable live Commons images


Would you enable live images from Commons? That a great feature!$wgForeignFileRepos Thanks, Yann 15:02, 22 December 2008 (EST)