The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.
Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!
Please sweep the pub
Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. three months after the last comment in that discussion) that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
- A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page
- A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to the policy or expedition discussion page
- A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
- A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old. Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to to where the main discussion took place.
Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
Selection of Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path for Main Page
Hey current editors! We have changed the Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path sections of the Main Page for October. However, we would value your input and suggestions in the Destination of the Month candidates page for following months. Please check it out! IBcash 15:38, 2 October 2012 (EDT)
- Obviously I'd like to feature a New Zealand destination - but first I need to get one to Star status! --W. Franke-mailtalk 07:50, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
- Albuquerque has been already featured in the past as a Destination of the Month. –sumone10154(talk) 17:01, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
- You're right! It slipped past me. Thanks! Since we changed it early because we didn't have one in September, we could keep it there until the 15th (the actual time when the OTBP would change) and then change it. What do you think? Any suggestions for another October OTBP? IBcash 13:59, 4 October 2012 (EDT)
- Thanks guys.--IBobi talk email 19:55, 16 October 2012 (EDT)
- Hello! Are there any suggestions for the Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path for December. Please let us know your ideas here. Thank you! IBAlex 19:04, 27 November 2012 (EST)
- I think that Jacksonville would be a good Destination Of The Month for February or March. What do you think? User:Travelgeek 12:34, 27 December 2012 (EST)
- I was thinking either of Rio de Janeiro for February because of the Carnival or some destination in Asia because of Chinese New Year celebrations. What do you think? Jacksonville maybe in March then? Is there something going on in Jacksonville in March? warm regards, IBAlex 13:57, 15 January 2013 (EST)
Being an experienced Wikipedia editor, but very, very new to Wikitravel editing (though a somewhat frequent reader of), I - on my very first intended edit - ran into a question.
In the By car-section of the Slovakia travel guide, I would like to have quoted a part of the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office travel advice for Slovakia: "The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills)." In my view it sums it up very brilliantly (having being a driving tourist in Slovakia on several occasions) and I think, that sourcing it would only make it all the more authoritative in this case. While being a reader of Wikitravel I have never pondered over the "lack" of quotes, but I have now looked into both a number of articles as well as various parts of the Wikitravel:Manual of style, the Wikitravel:External links (could be it had something - it didn't) and Wikitravel:Welcome, Wikipedians/Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia/shared:How to re-use Wikipedia content (Wikipedia is rather anal about quoting and sourcing). Basically I came up empty-handed in all cases. I even found Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Reflist indicating that I'm not the only one with this "predicament". So my question is:
How do I quote and reference it?
I'm inclined to just insert a statement such as:
- As the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office put it in their travel advice for Slovakia: "The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills)."
But I would rather do it in the right manner, in case I have missed something very obvious :). In kind regards, Henrik/Heb 04:01, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
- You could go the short quote route (under the fair dealing copyright provisions) providing a link to the source (that might quickly become outdated) but it might be better just to put that in your own words - especially if you've personal experience of driving in Slovakia. That would mean one less external link - which we prefer. We normally don't reference material here and unless we're (rarely) using a direct quote, don't usually source either. Enjoy your new-found freedom and plunge forward Henrik!--W. Franke-mailtalk 07:55, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
Okay, another question from newbie Dane, but please bare with me...
I wanted to update the S-train-map in the Get around-section of the Copenhagen travel guide. The one currently there is from 2009, and there has been two changes since then. Because I am slightly lazy, I thought of using the map from Wikimedia Commons, which as far as I read shared:Tech:Enable InstantCommons should be fairly easy. Unfortunately the simple [[Image:S-train diagram (dec 2011).svg|thumb|420px|Map of S-trains and Metro in the Copenhagen area, with districts marked in the background]] didn't work - and neither did replacing Image: with File:. So I tried including a .png-file from Wikimedia Commons and that actually did work :)
Then I did a search for .svg-files on Wikitravel and there seems to be a lot of them. But none of them works. So I'm guessing there is an issue with SVG-files somewhere. I tried with SVG-files on Wikimedia Commons and there have no problems. What do I do? In kind regards, Henrik/Heb 04:28, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
- I'm afraid this is beyond my knowledge - but I can confirm it's a real problem - I had to substitute a png file for an svg file in this template, Henrik. --W. Franke-mailtalk 17:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
- I will have tech look into this! Thank you, --IBobi talk email 18:30, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
- OK -- we're seeing that they do in fact work (you have to click all the way through to the actual file, not the thumbnail), they just won't produce thumbnails.
- Can you tell me how you're uploading them, and where, step by step, i.e. 1) Go this page 2) Edit 3) Upload this file or reference this file 4) Error?--IBobi talk email 18:50, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
- Looks like this may be fixed; thumbnails should slowly repopulate as the cache rebuilds over time. Let me know if this is still not working as expected.--IBobi talk email 20:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
Hello! I would like to call to action all the administrators and contributors on WT.
For a long time Travel news have been outdated. It is time to change it and keep the Travel Alerts and Current and upcoming events up-to-date. To achieve that, I need your help. Who is willing to offer his/her help? Thank you! IBAlex 15:54, 29 October 2012 (EDT)
- I think many of us are waiting for some straight answers here before we decide whether it's worth the effort in doing anything other than curating the articles that have already been written, Aleksandra. --W. Franke-mailtalk 19:56, 15 November 2012 (EST)
- It's a pity to hear that, Frank, because I really believe in Wikitravel and I would like to make the site as much updated as possible. I know that with yours and community support it will be easier and better. IBAlex 20:27, 15 November 2012 (EST)
The stay safe section in Stockholm (and to some extent Sweden) is frequently subject to edit conflicts, many of them pushing the opinion that Stockholm would be a dangerous city. Can you give some advice how to solve this disagreement? Thanks in advance. /Blist 09:45, 6 November 2012 (EST)
- Hello Blist! Thank you for notifying me. I checked it out and I saw that the user with the IP address 188.8.131.52 has made just one change in the stay safe section in Stockholm. However, I have already contacted him asking to avoid edit wars on Stockholm page and discuss all the changes he is planning to do on the discussion page.
- I am also watching this page so I will keep an eye on this issue. Cheers! IBAlex 13:04, 6 November 2012 (EST)
- The best solution is always to discuss the changes you both are making, using the Discussion page for that article. Sometimes it can be difficult to get an IP user to engage in this way. Try leaving a detailed note in the Edit Summary asking him/her to talk to you.--IBobi talk email 14:43, 6 November 2012 (EST)
- POV-pushing continues, by first-time unregistered users. Can anything more be done? Please contribute to Talk:Stockholm. /Blist 07:06, 26 November 2012 (EST)
Travel booking tool!
Soon, Wikitravellers will have the ability not only to browse and edit travel topics right here on the world's largest and best free travel wiki, but also to *book* travel from the very same page.
Wikitravel has partnered with Orbitz to bring you a tool that will give you air and hotel booking options on each destination page in our travel guide. If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
We've worked with the Wikitravel community over the past 2 years to determine exactly what the look and feel of the tool ought to be; please let us know any feedback you have, and we'll make every effort to accommodate changes! Thank you, --IBobi talk email 14:34, 19 November 2012 (EST)
- I think this is a great idea for monetising the site!
- I also like the way that none of our registered editors will probably ever notice this. After all, you're not wrong when you continually point out that there are millions of visitors to this site who never bother to register and will automatically get a chance to make bookings.
- So as not to weaken the credibility of the ads, it's even more important to give more people effective janitor tools!
- However, I still think that you should clarify in writing the community established policies you have changed. --singaporeAlice 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
- I've switched on the display of Orbitz but still I never see it. What pages is it actually working on, please?
- Also, Wikitravel has been slow to the point of being unusable today from this Pacific Rim country - the competing Wikimedia site loads more than 100 times faster on identical pages like North Korea. More than 20 times in succession I get the "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data" message. --singaporeAlice 04:07, 22 November 2012 (EST)
- Did I miss an important announcement? I still don't see the display of Orbitz travel information but now the option to switch it on has disappeared completely from my preferences. What gives? --singaporeAlice 02:54, 30 November 2012 (EST)
- At this time, the tool is only available if you are not logged in. We will restore functionality to those who wish to use it while logged in soon.--IBobi 14:07, 30 November 2012 (EST)
Thanks for your prompt response.
I assume you are still having technical problems since I have just seen the Orbitz tool appear for the first time while logged in and with my preferences flag not set to "Show Orbitz Search", as this screenshot clearly shows if you click on it to enlarge: Please feel free to email me if you need help.
With this edit you removed another user's comments. Unless there are exceptional reasons, this is frowned upon, so I assume the excision was accidental, yes? --singaporeAlice 15:10, 30 November 2012 (EST)
- Alice- you have to go to your web browser's options and clear cache . Then the Orbitz Widget will not show again. I hope it helps. IBAlex 15:27, 30 November 2012 (EST)
What happened to this page? Its text is now on Southwest United States but that page doesn't contain the history. –sumone10154(talk) 22:00, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
- Bizarre! You might want to check the logs. (IBadmins have recently promoted - without any community discussion or warning - a number of admins that, unlike yourself, have a very limited understanding of the policies and procedures of the English Wikitravel. Equally it might be some new spammer trickery.) --singaporeAlice 00:57, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
- Fixed; no biggie. Just re-saved from earlier edit. Happens with MW database on occasion.--IBobi talk email 04:58, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
- Thanks for your very rapid response.
- I have deleted the contents & re-directed: Southwest (United States of America) since it's a breach of our Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike licence to duplicate a page without duplicating the attribution history.
- I'm still baffled as to how (on the face of it) an IP editor managed to duplicate an article and then delete the original (and its edit history) and all without leaving a trace in the logs. --singaporeAlice 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
- Without doing extensive research, I'm not sure that's how it went down. Looked to me like a DB error that was easily corrected. At any rate, after verifying that the "new" page redirects also redirected to the "old" page, I went ahead and deleted the "new" page, as it consisted of nothing more than dupe content, which is confusing. We don't want people contributing on one location and not the other, which is just what would happen.--IBobi talk email 15:52, 5 November 2012 (EST)
What is this database error? There are many pages missing including Ocean City, Sydney/Bondi Beach, Afrikaans phrasebook. –sumone10154(talk) 18:27, 5 November 2012 (EST)
- We're looking into what causes this. Obviously we do not want to wait until a knowledgeable editor like yourself discovers pages that are unusable. Did you find these by browsing to them or by some other method?--IBobi talk email 18:39, 5 November 2012 (EST)
The article above states: "It's possible to encode information about the latitude and longitude of a destination into the destination guide itself. This information will then be used to make special HTML tags to show that the page is related to those lat/long coordinates;"..."A "Map" link will also be added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane, which will take users to a Google, Yahoo, or Microsoft map of the location."
I've added the relevant template to our Nelson (New Zealand) article but the "Map" link was not added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane! --singaporeAlice 20:37, 6 November 2012 (EST)
- Hmm. Research shows that there have been problems with this template interfering with formatting. And not being terribly useful besides. We'll have to look into this one. Do you see an example where it is working?--IBobi talk email 13:35, 7 November 2012 (EST)
- I can't find any page where it is not currently broken - sorry.
- It's not terribly useful to save the few keystrokes needed to key "Nelson, New Zealand" into the on-line mapping provider of your choice but
- it would enhance the advertising click revenue of Internet Brands to have our relevant article page (with advertising by default) show up on users geocode-enabled smartphones according to their GPS location
- it's very useful to find out of the way places (often in third world countries) where names are often incompletely found or differently spelt on maps. --singaporeAlice 17:01, 7 November 2012 (EST)
ISBN book references are also broken
As can be seen if you click on any of the ISBN numbers (in blue) in this section: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Philippines&oldid=1951302#Books
You are taken to the special page but, although the search box is correctly pre-populated the "Go" search button no longer works. --singaporeAlice 16:26, 7 November 2012 (EST)
- Hmm. I'll queue it; no guarantees on timing as this is the first I've seen of this functionality.--IBobi talk email 18:00, 7 November 2012 (EST)
- Appears to be working as designed. It's generating the AMAZON and B&N, etc. links at the bottom of the page. The input box is just to refresh the page and generate those links. Let me know if you have info to the contrary.--IBobi talk email 18:12, 7 November 2012 (EST)
Because of the recent misunderstanding of our policies by a long-standing Wikipedia admin, I have clarified and re-emphasised our specific policies on linking to (or promoting) other travel sites that use wiki editing software here. I doubt that many will read it in advance, but at least the clarified policy is now there to be quoted in explanation after a redaction or deletion. --singaporeAlice 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
UPDATE: My clarifications have now been deleted (twice).
So we are now back to the hypocrytical situation of having one policy actively enforced and promulgated (at least by some IBadmins) without ever having that policy enunciated on any policy page that I am aware of. I think I'll change my user name to George Orwell. --singaporeAlice 18:48, 5 November 2012 (EST)
- 1. WT editors are not to make changes to policies unilaterally. That is why the changes were reverted (at the request of another non-IB editor). 2. The policy in question doesn't really need a change. It's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. And it's almost entirely in the past. Thus there is no reason to amend policy, both because as it stands it is being applied consistently, and because the situation requiring that interpretation was unique and has now passed. It's time to move forward.--IBobi talk email 19:06, 5 November 2012 (EST)
- 1) I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you genuinely do not think We do not allow (and will attempt to strenuously police and expunge) external links to, or promotion of, travel websites that are not primary sources - this policy includes other wikis, whether Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licensed or not has been our policy for a long time or
I'm a Dutchman the policy in question has always existed and doesn't really need a change. Instead it's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. That interpretation needs to be made explicit and prominent to avoid edit wars.
- 2) I do think it completely Orwellian and counter productive not to explicitly warn people that they should not include links to or use the naughty names of other travel wikis in text - particularly those that have recently started operating from Wikimedia servers. Since I am not an admin I really do need an explicit policy to link to in a terse but precise and authoritative way when I excise naughty names or links if the (often bona fide but ignorant-of-our-policy-that-can-not-speak-its-name) editor is not to be left puzzled, frustrated and annoyed by my (to him, incomprehensible) edits. An example of this is where an article discussion section dating back to July 2006 was removed to the genuine puzzlement of an IP contributor. --singaporeAlice 16:51, 7 November 2012 (EST)
On a related but different topic, I really find it objectionable that no official announcements are being made about new admin appointments.
It is bad enough that folks are arbitrarily being made an admin on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience+nomination+discussion process but secret appointments are really not my idea of "moving on".
If this character is not an admin, I really deprecate that this naming loophole has not been plugged weeks ago as I suggested! --W. Franke-mailtalk 16:11, 15 November 2012 (EST)
- Unfortunately there's no way I know of to prevent that yet. But since we watch all new user creation, we'll catch it if it happens. Sometimes users are appointed internally as admins. No biggie. I was such a user, and look how great I've turned out :) --IBobi talk email 16:21, 15 November 2012 (EST)
- Has IBMaarten arbitrarily been made an admin, on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience + nomination + discussion process but as a secret appointment?? Yes or No, please. --W. Franke-mailtalk 16:35, 15 November 2012 (EST)
- I thought I explained it? And the edit that made him an admin was clear: he's administering the Dutch site, and also working on EN. There's nothing secret, Frank. Rejoice: and welcome the new admin!--IBobi talk email 16:50, 15 November 2012 (EST)
- No, we have still not had any announcement from you, any other IBadmin or a properly appointed admin, never mind on the proper pages and you have still not answered with a "Yes".
- Neither was his admin status on the English language version of Wikitravel showing at: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3AActiveUsers&limit=50&username=IB at the time I posed the question above and at the time I make this edit.(I've taken a screenshot which I can post if you doubt my veracity).
- We're not mind readers, you know and you really are abusing all of our policies and processes now. As for there being nothing secret, that really is a lie as Alice makes clear above.
- Would you now make clear (with a properly formatted diff) what exactly was "the edit that made him an admin", please?
- And for the avoidance of doubt, I personally have no objection in principle to admins from other language versions being rapidly promoted to admin status on the EN Wikitravel. But there should be a clear announcement on the proper page(s) each time this happens and you urgently need to revise all those policy pages that you currently keep flouting. To do anything less is to destroy any chance of re-building the community that has been decimated by your autocratic and thoroughly whimsical decisions, never mind poisoning the wholehearted welcome that would otherwise be given to new (and sorely needed) wielders of the mop. --W. Franke-mailtalk 18:30, 15 November 2012 (EST)
- I believe you can view this page? Sorry you're unhappy Frank. We're promoting anyone who gets the required community support in the required time period, and shows the best qualities to help the community move forward. Thank you, --IBobi talk email 18:46, 15 November 2012 (EST)
- That User rights log is not a page that can be added to anyone's watchlist and neither do I know of a way to find out what pages internally link to it. Do you seriously expect editors to load that page every few hours to find out what admin has been appointed on the English language version of Wikitravel most recently?
- I note that you have still not dealt with the most pressing point: Explicit Clarification in writing, on the English language version of Wikitravel, in the obvious places of the new policies and, if they are of only a temporary nature, their expected date of expiry. --W. Franke-mailtalk 18:59, 15 November 2012 (EST)
Is "formatting according to our MoS" edit warring?
Perhaps appropriately, given its subject matter, this policy page has been constructed by individual editors plunging forward and writing stuff that seemed blindingly obvious to them.
Rather refreshingly, a brand new IBadmin has queried whether making persistent changes to article formatting is "something that needs to be discussed first within the community. I'm referring to this  change."
Does anybody else think that (for example) when more knowledgeable editors continuously and relentlessly change formatting that does not conform to our Manual of Style (without good reason) - such as changing "150 Pesos" to the more correct "₱150" - this is edit warring?
Who else thinks that in cases of controversy, the style manual should not trump? --singaporeAlice 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
- Edit warring is edit warring, regardless of whether one of the parties is "right" and the other party is "wrong".
- If two people are changing the article formatting back and forth, the correct thing to do is to follow the procedure discussed in Wikitravel:Edit war. JYolkowski 22:11, 21 November 2012 (EST)
- Replied to you at Wikitravel_talk:Edit_war since I'm rather baffled by your imputed suggestion that we should scrap at least one of our five foundation policies that: "Text and images should follow style guidelines. With rare exception, text and images should follow our Manual of style. Exceptions should gain wide consensus; in cases of controversy, the style manual trumps." --singaporeAlice 22:47, 21 November 2012 (EST)
- The quote you included contains the words "With rare exception." That's why you need to discuss with the other party instead of edit warring with them to see whether it makes sense for this to be such an exception. Cheers, JYolkowski 19:06, 23 November 2012 (EST)
I boldly started Wikitravel:Requested articles for listing links to articles that would be useful, but do not yet exist. Would it be useful for the development of Wikitravel? /Blist 13:14, 22 November 2012 (EST)
- Why not? --singaporeAlice 14:27, 22 November 2012 (EST)
"add listing" defect
For a long while we have had a policy of listings being alphabetically ordered unless there is a good reason not to.
Unfortunately this is consistently and automatically buggered by the "add listing" option that appears in blue to the right of our standard section headings of "See", "Do", "Buy", "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" that always adds the new listing to the bottom of that particular section.
Is it time to change the listing order policy or recode the robot so that it understands alphabetic order? --singaporeAlice 16:34, 24 November 2012 (EST)
There are many countries around the world that use the name "dollar" and the symbol "$" for their currency. Our usual policy is that
Prices should be listed with the currency symbol that travellers will encounter, specifically the local formatting. The currency symbol should always be prefixed. Travellers should be able to assume that symbols used for multiple currencies (like $ or £) apply to the local currency. Do not use currency codes like "USD", "EUR", or "GBP" if the symbol is established.
- $100 in Detroit, not US$100, 100 USD or 100 dollars
- $100 in Vancouver, not CAD$100, 100 CAD or 100 dollars
- $100 in Wellington, not NZD$100, 100 NZD or 100 dollars
- $100 in Canberra, not AUD$100, 100 AUD or 100 dollars
and I propose no change in respect of this.
However, the currency of Colombia poses special dangers of inconsistency and confusion as exemplified in our Cartagena (Colombia) article.
Colombia is unusual in having an officially recognised currency symbol of "$" that (unlike Singapore, etc) is not actually used on their banknotes - where, instead, "pesos" is printed. Since prices in the tourist industry in Colombia are also often quoted in US$, I propose that we use "pesos" instead of either the $ symbol or COP for Colombia currency.
This is somewhat analogous to the "Baht or ฿" situation adjudicated at Wikitravel_talk:Currency but differs in that I propose using the plural "pesos" rather than "peso" since
- the peso is so minute as to be almost never encountered in the singular
- that is the word (in Spanish) that appears on Colombian Banknotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_peso
Does anyone disagree with my proposal?
Discuss at Wikitravel_talk:Currency#Colombian_pesos rather than here, please! --singaporeAlice 15:21, 26 November 2012 (EST)
- Nobody has raised any objections so I will now make the necessary policy change. --singaporeAlice 18:44, 30 November 2012 (EST)
First of all, I want to apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, but right now I am so frustrated that my head is spinning.
When I was originally planning our family vacation to Las Vegas I used the WikiTravel website as a source of research for shows, attractions and places to stay. As a first time visitor to Las Vegas, the website seemed to be a prime resource providing a lot of useful information.
We have since returned to Las Vegas several times and I absolutely love this destination and am planning to return many more times.
In anticipation of my return to Sin City in a few months I was going through my Vegas bookmarks and I noticed the Wikitravel entry. I remembered reading a few of the entertainment/shows entries and I realized that a few things didn't jive with what I had experienced in real life.
When I went back to the website to confirm my suspicions - Sure enough, there they were!
Numerous inaccuries, for example:
Blue Man Group at the Venetian (they have since moved their show to the Monte Carlo)
Bette Midler at Caesars Palace (her residency ended Jan. 2010)
Lance Burton at the Monte Carlo (his residency ended in Sept. 2010)
Fab Four Live at the V Theater in Planet Hollywood (the correct title of the show is Beatleshow!)
Viva Elvis at the Aria (closed in August)
Human Nature at the Imperial Palace (ended their residency in November, and the Imperial Palace is now know as the Quad)
nowhere did it mention the residencies of:
Elton at Caesars Palace (his residency has since ended but was current at the time)
Shania Twain at Caesars Palace
Celine Dion at Caesars Palace
Rod Stewart at Caesars Palace
Tim McGraw and Faith Hill at the Venetian
these are the most glaring ommissions
Comedy Shows had only 2 listings (2 listings?!?!? I couldn't believe this! Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy (the venue has since changed) are the only 2 comedy shows in ALL of Las Vegas???)
not listed were: Brad Garrett's Comedy Club, Louie Anderson, George Wallace, Big Al's Comedy Club, The Improv at Harrah's, Wolf's Comedy Den, Riviera Comedy Club etc. etc.
Tribute Shows did not list:
Frank Marino's Divas Las Vegas, MJ Live, Legends in Concert, Purple Reign: A Tribute to Prince, Dancing Queen, The Australian Bee Gees, Trent Carlini's the King, The Rat Pack is Back (there are currently over 4 Frank Sinatra and/or Rat Pack shows playing) etc. etc.
Magic Shows did not list:
Jan Rouven, Mike Hammer, Nathan Burton, Seth Grabel, The Amazing Jonathon etc. etc.
Impressionist/impersonation shows did not list:
Gordie Brown and veteran impersonator Rich Little!
You get the picture! The number of ommissions and innaccuracies was-and-is mind-boggling!
Considering that Wikitravel's Main Page proclaims that it is a "complete, up-to-date and reliable worldwide travel guide" this is unfathomable!
At this point I decided to take it upon myself and sign up as a Wikitravel editor with the intention of becoming a "Las Vegas entertainment editor" of sorts and doing a thorough update of the "See" section (that's kind of funny actually).
I spent over a week researching and documenting the current shows as well as the concerts and special events (I'll get to this in a moment) ... and this is no mean feat ...
To verify information required me to consult the venue's website, the performer's website, the authorized ticket agent's website and in some cases some entertainment revue sites. (I subscribe to dozens of Las Vegas tourism and entertainment guides and websites.)
Once I had compiled all the information, I went about adding the new entries to the appropriate categories and correcting any inaccuracies.
Once I was finished editing all the regular Las Vegas shows, I decided to tackle the concert listings knowing that this would be a very "hands on" endeavour requiring me to make edits on almost a daily basis.
I created a sub-heading titled "Concerts/Special Events" with 2 sub-headings under that titled "1 Night Only" and "Limited Engagement". I then started to populate the lists in chronological order based on all the information I had.
Halfway through listing the events for December I see a notice at the top of my screen saying that "there was a conflict with some of my listings etc. etc". Upon checking my User talk page I see a message that says this:
"I had to delete your contribution on Las Vegas page because we do not post one time events/ attractions in destination articles. Best, IBAlex 20:19, 30 November 2012 (EST)"
I could not believe what I was seeing!
To omit "1 night only" or "limited engagement" concerts/special events from a Las Vegas entertainment listings is a travesty! Las Vegas is truly the entertainment capital of the world and to ignore this by not including these listings is doing the reader a huge dis-service. I personally, would book travel based on several of these events alone and I know this to be true for many others. There has to be an exception made for Vegas ... the concerts, shows and special events are what Las Vegas is all about! That in itself is what makes Las Vegas a travel destination! You can't apply standard rules as there is no place on the planet like this!
This is a partial list of the concerts and special events for the month of December:
Aerosmith & Cheap Trick, ZZ Top, Megadeth, The Eagles, Red Hot Chili Peppers, The Black Keys, Pitbull, The Killers, The O'Jays, Jerry Seinfeld, the Wayans Brothers, The Eagles, Jeff Dunham, UFC 155, The Ultimate Fighter Finale, The National Rodeo Finals, American Country Awards, Three Dog Night, Restless Heart, Mannheim Steamroller, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Train, Ron White, Bill Engvall, Dennis Miller & Bill O'Reilly, Journey & Loverboy, Merle Haggard, Lonestar, Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Márquez, Charlie Daniels Band, The Oak Ridge Boys, Randy Travis, LeAnn Rimes, 3 Doors Down & Daughtry, Moody Blues, Tanya Tucker, Travis Tritt, The Tragically Hip, Trace Adkins, Social Distortion, Dave Koz and many many more.
So now, in addition to all the concert/special event listings being deleted, so are all my show updates and inclusions. All of my work is now GONE! Wiped out in one fell swoop by an all-knowing, all-mighty admin. Hours and hours of work down the toilet!
So, as of right now according to the Las Vegas WikiTravel page: Bette Midler, Lance Burton and Viva Elvis are still performing, while Shania Twain, Rod Stewart, Tim McGraw & Faith Hill and Celine Dion are not. Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy are the only 2 comedy shows in town. Dozens and dozens of shows and venues do not exist and there are no concerts playing in town at all whatsoever.
It's a shame.
- I restored your edits; IMHO the deletion was bad judgement by an inexperienced admin. On the other hand, she had a point; WT is a travel guide; some of your listings may be too short-term to bother with and should be deleted as unmaintainable. Dicussion should go on the article's talk page. Pashley 20:03, 1 December 2012 (EST)
I have committed myself to maintaining the short term edits. By tomorrow morning the concert listings dated December 1 will have been deleted. And so on and so on. I can appreciate how short-term listings might be termed "unmaintainable" by conventional thinking ... but ... Las Vegas is far from being a "conventional" travel destination. Thank you Briank58 20:17, 1 December 2012 (EST)
- Briank58- thank you for your notice. I would gladly address this problem. I am here to help users and I am open to any suggestions and discussions.
- Please know that your contribution on Las Vegas page is highly appreciated. I am glad to see that you understand that Wikitravel does not support short-time listings (especially 1 day listings) because it is difficult to maintain them. We do worry that when users post short-time listings on the site, they will not remove them once the listings become outdated. And this clearly is not beneficial for the site and the users... In this way, the site risks of becoming eventually cluttered with those outdated listings. That is why I removed your listings, leaving a message on your Talk Page to let you know that I did not mean anything bad. I was simply following the conventions.
- However, when I see that you are willing to upkeep the listings and remove some of them on daily basis, I am fine with keeping them there. Again, your contribution is extremely valuable to Las Vegas site, thank you for that. Warm regards, IBAlex 13:32, 3 December 2012 (EST)
Why are the Orbitz ads appearing on non-logged in users?
Disclaimer: I wrote the following without knowing that the feature was supposed to be opt-in
- Case in point: Buenos Aires, Hong Kong, Paris, and many other cities now have Orbitz banners in the header and the 'Get In' and 'Sleep' sections.
- I understand the need for more funding, but nobody will ever say "Oh, how convenient, now I can buy plane tickets while in the middle of reading a Wikitravel article". On its current state is useless at the best, and obtrusive at its worst.
- Sometimes this is extremely ridiculous: just look at the article on Orania.
For those reasons I think anyway that having it as an opt-out is a terrible idea. 184.108.40.206 22:57, 1 December 2012 (EST)
- The announcement is in the section above at #Travel booking tool!. –sumone10154(talk) 23:41, 1 December 2012 (EST)
- I know. But according to that announcement,
- If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
- These ads are appearing to me as a non-logged-in user, and the only way I found to disable them is
to log-in into an account, clearly making it opt-out.
- Was that change intentional? In that case it's a horrible decision IMO. 220.127.116.11 11:37, 2 December 2012 (EST)
- This was discussed about a year ago and is one of the reasons why it is so quiet here. However ignoring question of whether a booking engine should be there, I find the implementation poor.
- I tried the booking banner from the Aberdeen page, trying to find a flight to there from Manchester. The article said that there were direct flights, so that was what I was expecting to be offered, but I was only offered a flight via Amsterdam, requiring an overnight stay and costing $407 return. But at Orbitz's own site, I was offered direct flights on the same dates for $184 return. There is also no easy way of finding out who Orbitz is, or of changing the currency from dollars.
- Trying it on Orania gave the suggestion of Alexandria, which is a long distance away - the booking engine must know the correct airport for every page that it appears on.
- It would be better to have the booking banner on the right hand side, above the adverts. This also gives the possibility of getting local bus and train companies to offer booking. I doubt that I will be looking to book a flight here, but a way of booking the bus from the airport would be useful. AlasdairW 18:18, 3 December 2012 (EST)
- Hi Alasdair -- I am looking into why the results are different. I tried the same search and got the same results you did. We're still working the kinks out and hope it can be a very useful tool indeed for our Wikitravelers. Please let me know if you see anything else that is suboptimal. Cheers, --IBobi 19:02, 7 December 2012 (EST)
New administrators nomination
We have a new nomination for the administrator on Wikitravel. Please have a look at Administrator nominations. Best, IBAlex 20:34, 3 December 2012 (EST)
Town of Rochester, New York
There is Town of Rochester (Ulster County)  in New York State which is different from the larger, more familiar City of Rochester (Monroe County) in New York State. How would I add (name) the Town of Rochester here? The two Rochesters are over a hundred miles apart, not related at all. gamweb 18:10, 8 December 2012 (EST)
- Hi Gamweb! Thank you for your message. The best way is to create a page for Town of Rochester from the scratch since it doesn't exist here. Please have a look . You would need to select the best template and just plunge forward. Don't worry if you don't know how to fill out all the sections- someone will be along to help with it later! Once the page is created, we would need to create a Disambiguation Page, similar to this one so that nobody will get confused with the destination. Please let me know if there is anything else i can help with. Greetings, IBAlex 13:42, 10 December 2012 (EST)
- There is already a disambiguation page at Rochester. I would suggest Rochester_(Ulster_County) might be best, county names are often used when there is more than one place of the same name in a state / country. But it worth asking "what do people say locally?", when buying a bus ticket to the town from the other side of the state, as this may suggest a better name. AlasdairW 18:47, 10 December 2012 (EST)
- Nice!--IBobi 18:49, 10 December 2012 (EST)
User Blist has recently created a page with a list of requested articles that still don't exist on Wikitravel. Please plunge forward and help us grow! Looking forward to your contributions! Best, IBAlex 18:13, 11 December 2012 (EST)
New Page - Kerhonkson
I just created new page for Kerhonkson, New York. It's been a while since I made a new page. Please look it over to see what's missing. (Auxiliary wikilinks) gamweb 22:48, 12 December 2012 (EST)
- Great job! Thank you! I needed to change the headline "Go next" to "Get out" because that's still the proper name Wikitravel uses for this section. We would be changing this headline soon throughout all the articles. I'm looking forward to more contributions from you. Thank you again! Cheers! IBAlex 15:10, 13 December 2012 (EST)
- Sorry about that. I was working in "parallel" with another travel site at the same time (enough said). gamweb 16:04, 13 December 2012 (EST)
- No worries. Thank you! IBAlex 16:35, 13 December 2012 (EST)
- Ellenville, near Kerhonkson. Give it a look over. I still have to add some photos. gamweb 23:18, 16 December 2012 (EST)
- Page looks great! Are there any other destinations you are planning to work at? Best, IBAlex 16:39, 17 December 2012 (EST)
Here is a list of articles that have been rated as Usable and need some attention. Please feel free to plunge forward and add some information. If you think that some of the articles shouldn't be there, please let us know. See this page for a description of what qualifies an article for different statuses. Thank you! IBAlex 18:32, 17 December 2012 (EST)
Some and some
I already run seahouseswebsite.co.uk for my community. I made half a dozen or so edits to the Wikitravel page about Seahouses but what now appears on-line includes only some of those edits - in some cases leaving ungrammatical sentences. What did I do wrong? Should I try again or is there some reason why my edits were edited?
My edits included a reference to the Farne Islands. No Wikitravel page existed so I've just written one but I'm quite sure it needs proper formatting etc.
Ideally can someone respond to [email protected]?
Bonniedougall 09:47, 18 December 2012 (EST)
- Dear Bonniedougall! Some of the edits you made had to be deleted because you inserted too many external links on one page (there were 10 links leading to the same domain). Please read our external links policies to get more information. A couple of links on a page is ok but it is not our aim on Wikitravel to fill up the articles with external links. Anyone reading Seahouses article will see the link even if it's only one. I hope you understand.
- I also noticed that you created Farne Islands page. We already had a page about Farne Islands, please have a look. That is why I need to ask you to merge the information on the page you created with the existing one. We do not duplicate pages on Wikitravel. Thank you! Warm regards, IBAlex 18:22, 18 December 2012 (EST)
OK Alex, I've had another go which should be more compliant. And I'm suggesting that the page entitled THE Farne Islands should be scrapped.Bonniedougall 06:34, 20 December 2012 (EST)
- Bonniedougall- would you mind putting a template on the Farne Islands page you created? The page would look nicer and more organized. In this way I would be able to delete The Farne Islands. Thank you! IBAlex 11:35, 20 December 2012 (EST)
Having mentioned the Holy Island of Lindisfarne on 'my' Seahouses page, and there having been no Holy Island of Lindisfarne page, I have created one - ready for the Lindisfarne folk to develop. So I have left an email with them, at, drawing their attention to the matter.
Bonniedougall 08:47, 20 December 2012 (EST)
- There is a Lindisfarne page aleady. I made yours a redirect to that. Pashley 08:56, 20 December 2012 (EST)
We are planning to revitalize Wikitravel and our community! In 2013 we would like to improve technicality and usability of the site and we are open to any ideas! Please let us know of any new features you would like to have on WT and share with us your suggestions on how to make Wikitravel better. Thank you! IBAlex 14:20, 20 December 2012 (EST)
- Please list the appropriate pages to make suggestions. --18.104.22.168 03:16, 2 January 2013 (EST)
- Please enable the API. I would love to use Wikitravel with my iPad App (Wikipanion) 22.214.171.124 06:24, 14 January 2013 (EST)
Policy on free-riding tips
I got some second thoughts about deleting tips on how to evade a station entrance fee in Stockholm-Arlanda Airport: Link to change log What is Wikitravel's policy for riding transports, or entering venues, without a proper ticket? Is it a no-no, or are there circumstances when such information is allowed? /Blist 19:12, 23 December 2012 (EST)
- There is an Wikitravel:Illegal_activities_policy. AlasdairW 19:14, 26 December 2012 (EST)
- Based on the above policy I'd say it's clear that info should be deleted. It could be argued as acceptable e.g. if there's an official requirement to pay for a ticket but everybody ignores it and it isn't controlled or sanctioned - falling somewhat loosely under "Where police or public corruption mean that the written law of the land differs substantially from the practise of law enforcement." Maaaybe applicable in this case if all local U-30 people do it. Berserk 23:36, 26 December 2012 (EST)
- Related is Gävle, where I saw the need to point out that burning the Gävle Goat is illegal, since the goats have been burnt down by foreign travellers, who were deceived by locals to commit the act, with legal consequences. /Blist 15:50, 27 December 2012 (EST)
Wikitravel's relationship to Wiki (pause) voyage?
Voyage is going beta in a couple of days. Does Wikitravel have any statement on their relationship to Voyage? Will there be any apparent differences in content policies and community policies? /Blist 04:32, 10 January 2013 (EST)
- Recently became aware of the 2012 conflict between Wikimedia Foundation and Internet Brands. Can anyone explain the current status? /Blist 05:08, 10 January 2013 (EST)
- Not beta. They have been in beta/cleanup for a while & are going live, open to all, jan 15. Pashley 09:22, 10 January 2013 (EST)
- I noticed that some of the language versions were entirely copied from WikiTravel. For example, Russian. In addition, the administrators of this section of potential writers gone to Voyage. The very same section given over to the mercy of vandals. I found out that it was a response to the actions of the leaders of the project.
- A fully working only a few sections: English, German, French... Can WikiTravel to compete in such an environment? Suggest to seriously address increasing competitiveness of the project. Xep 05:53, 18 January 2013 (EST)
- Hi Xep! Thank you for your message! All 21 language versions of Wikitravel look similar and follow almost the same structure. We will have soon an administrator on Russian Wikitravel who will take care of cleaning- up the site and removing spam and vandalism. Additionally, we still have a reasonable amount of edits on Russian WT so the site wouldn't be given over to the mercy of vandals as you suggested above.
- We have many more foreign language versions of the site that are fully working and have an active community that contributes over there. Have a look at Japanese Wikitravel and the statistics  that show that that Japanese version can soon become our most important foreign language Wikitravel (number of articles). Moreover, Italian, Finnish, Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch receive many edits and have community and administrative support. Therefore, yes, Wikitravel is still very competitive and is working on improving the site for the community. Warm regards, IBAlex 13:36, 18 January 2013 (EST)
- I am very pleased that the project develops. Perhaps my impression has developed thanks to the situation in the Russian section. The local administration has done to the section was abandoned. Continue to fill several anonymous article, but vandals placed a lot of spam. Acquainted with the activity of several other sections, I was concerned about the general activity on the site. Thanks for the stats, I'm glad it's not that bad. However, some language sections should be given special attention. Even in English there are many stories to be not just a supplement, a complete rewrite.
- I am ready to do the Russian section, if you do not mind, of course. Several articles I have already cleared the debris and collecting material for others. Xep 00:35, 19 January 2013 (EST)
- Xep, such a great message! Thank you for your willingness to help out on the Russian Wikitravel! There is so much potential over there! Which articles are you working on? Do you need some help?
- We have a new administrator on Russian Wikitravel that is going to start working on the site very soon. Her username is AleksF; she is active both here and on RU WT. Do you have any suggestions where to start with all the clean-up? I'm sure that AleksF would gladly help with that.
- Would be great if you find also the time to improve some of the articles on EN Wt. Thank you so much! Let's keep in touch! warm regards, IBAlex 18:42, 21 January 2013 (EST)
- First of all, I'm going to do articles about the places that are directly familiar. Along with this, I want to clean up articles of spam, because from him more harm than simple vandalism: spoil the image of the project.
- It would be good also to update and improve the Main page, as well as remove some vandals article. But I, unfortunately, can not do it.
- I would be happy if the new administrator will work with me for a common cause. My nickname in the Russian section is "Ужас неруси". Already in the section can give recommendations for improving both individual articles and its general condition. I hope for a fruitful collaboration. Xep 01:59, 22 January 2013 (EST)
- Sounds like a good plan! I'm open to any suggestions on how to improve Russian WT, AleksF and I would be glad to help with that! I would like to see that the content is changing regularly- let's start choosing Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path! Maybe also having News section like on the EN WT? What do you think?
- Yes, let's collaborate! IBAlex 17:26, 22 January 2013 (EST)
- Thank you! It is a good idea, but first we must return to the previous level of activity in the section. Then it will be done and the news section. And how do you propose to choose the Destination of the Month? Off the Beaten Path is completely absent, but it should be added. Sincerely, Xep 06:48, 23 January 2013 (EST)
Many articles on Wikitravel are very well developed and serve as a great source of information for many Travelers. We should nominate the best ones as Star Articles and feature them on the Main Page. I nominated Bangkok today. Please let me know what you think and if you have any other candidates. IBAlex 15:23, 14 January 2013 (EST)
We have updated today the Main Page and added a fully new section with Top Destinations. Right now we are featuring Top Destinations 2013 and Top Ski Destination. We would like to change this section frequently and we are open to your ideas for future top places around the world, for example:
- Top Beaches
- Top Hiking Places
What are your ideas? Please let us know. Thank you! IBAlex 13:10, 18 January 2013 (EST)
Is there anyone here interested in Making a trip to Tanzania?
I will like to know if there're any here who is interested in making a trip to Tanzania, home to Africa's highest mountain (Mt Kilimanjaro). Tanzania is one of the most beautiful countries in Africa and while in Tanzania, you would get the opportunity to either climb Africa's Highest mountain (Mt Kilimanjaro, or Africa's 5th Highest mountain ( Mt Meru) or explore the endless planes of Serengeti national park or Ngorongoro crater which stages incredible spectacle of animal behavior. There's so much to see in Tanzania. If there is, anyone interested in visiting, please kindly let me know,, I have got an offer for you.
- Thank you, Snoovy! I'm putting this message on the Tanzania Talk Page. In this case more people might see it. Are you often traveling to Tanzania? Have you seen Mount Kilimanjaro? Would be great to see your contributions on those pages; I'm sure that would benefit many travelers! Warm regards, IBAlex 12:49, 28 January 2013 (EST)
- This sort of stuff belongs at Wikitravel Extra, not on the wiki. Talk pages aren't for planning holidays or finding travel buddies. Please reread the policy at Wikitravel:Using talk pages, IBAlex. 126.96.36.199 00:07, 3 February 2013 (EST)
- 188.8.131.52, I am aware that Talk Pages are not the best place for "questions, comments, or personal stories about a destination or topic" as you might read in the policy pages. Knowing however, that Wikitravel Extra is currently not active as it used to be, for the pure traveler's benefit I decided to move the post to Tanzania Talk Page so that it is not left without a notice. Warm regards, IBAlex 13:03, 4 February 2013 (EST)