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Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

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The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Technical requests page on Wikitravel Shared instead.

Contents

Archives

Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

If a conversation does not fit into any specific talk page, it should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here 3 months after the last comment in that discussion.

Stuff that's been moved to specific talk pages:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Should we sweep this out? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 03:20, 16 August 2006 (EDT)
Ugh, this place is getting messy and this is the one page I hate to attempt to organize. Anyone want to take a stab at cleaning it up? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 18:29, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
How do you sweep the pub? What are the rules? Anything older than a certain date? There is stuff on here that is many, many months old. Where would be a "place more appropriate" to move the discussions to? Kire1975 01:54, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
Also, I am using the Safari browser, from Apple, on my Windows Vista computer. For some reason the scroll bar on the right side of my edit screen isn't working properly, so the only way to get way down to the bottom of the screen is to grab some text and pull my cursor down to the bottom of the page. It gets really awkward. Cleaning up the pub could help me out with this problem. thanks, Kire1975 02:14, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

One more thing, when I click 'save" on the edit page, it takes a while to processs. Kire1975 04:31, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

How to sweep pub?

That's a good question! Our archiving explanation at the top of this page has become very convoluted—I'm honestly not sure how to sweep the pub anymore. Can anyone explain the revised process? --Peter Talk 00:18, 25 July 2008 (EDT)


I nominate receveli's "request for help" below to be swept out of the pub. the problem is solved. how is it done? the shared wikitravel pages has a pub cellar. Should we create something like that? Kire1975 22:19, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

I have got the broom out today and swept out some of the older stuff. Mostly into the archive pages but, where relevant, into Talk Pages for the destination under discussion. Where I've done the latter I have marked the discussion as "Swept in from the travellers pub" Tarr3n 07:44, 2 September 2008 (EDT)


Image Uploads

Is there any easy way to move pictures uploaded here, to shared - or do you have to vfd them, download them, upload them on shared with a different name, and change the link it the article? Sertmann 06:16, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

You have to re-upload them to Shared, but once you do that you can speedy delete it here, noting in the edit summary that you moved to shared. There's no need to change the title either, it can remain the same – cacahuate talk 12:13, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Hmmm, don't I need admin privileges to speedy anything? Sertmann 15:57, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Yes... so you'll be able to do yourself most likely after another week :) If there's some you want done now, leave a note on my talk page and I can do for you, or you can also just list them on VFD and an admin will do – cacahuate talk 19:43, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

I've been wondering... if the goal is to have all images uploaded at shared, what purpose is served by still allowing uploads to :en? The <font size=HUGE> warning is routinely ignored. - Dguillaime 14:45, 23 February 2009 (EST)

Welcome messages

I just noticed how much we've been slacking off with giving new users the welcome message on their talk page. I think it is important-- I remember when I started here, Andrew gave me a welcome message almost immediately after I created my account, and it showed me that, yes, there are people out there paying attention, there is a community here. I think it's a good thing that can encourage new people to contribute more, so I want to ask everyone to pitch in to keep up with that. If you click on Recent changes and you see that a new account has been created, please just take a moment to create a welcome on their talk page. It doesn't take long at all. All you have to do is put:

{{subst:welcome}} -- ~~~~

If all the regular users here will just get in the habit of this, then no one will have to sit and do dozens and dozens of them in a row like I just did, plus new users may see the message during their first session and be inspired to come back for more sessions later. Thanks! Texugo 02:22, 8 November 2008 (EST)

What I usually do is let them edit a little-then I can make a comment that isnt totally uniform about their edits. Similar to my first message, thanks Jim. Keep smiling, ee talk 22:37, 8 November 2008 (EST).
The bigger problem is that most new users are not getting any message at all. Texugo 06:21, 9 November 2008 (EST)
I agree that people should be welcomed more, and I also agree with User:Edmontonenthusiast that we should probably wait until they actually make an edit. When I'm looking at Recentchanges I find the red or blue talk page link helpful to determine whether someone's new or not, and welcoming people before they make an edit confuses this. You all probably know this already, but you can go to Special:Contributions/newbies to see all the newcomers who have made contributions lately. Looks like they've all been welcomed, so good work to User:Edmontonenthusiast and User:Sertmann. JYolkowski 20:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Whoa, I had not seen that special page before! Really useful, thanks! --Peter Talk 23:12, 11 November 2008 (EST)
I meant to get in here and offer the possibility that it might not be a very good use of time to welcome all new users, for a couple of reasons.
1) most newly registered users aren't actually editing, so they probably just thought they had to register to use the site;
2) a semi-custom message, that at best gives advice or guidance, and at least a thank you for particular work, is much better than what looks like an automated message—that sort of community contact is really helpful in getting good new contributors to stick around;
3) welcome messages to users that are violating Wikitravel policy without letting them know that they are doing something wrong is potentially harmful, as they might take that as a cue to spread their policy violations further.
So, I'd actually question whether going through the new user log to hit everyone with a welcome message at once is useful. I'd argue that it would be far more useful to make sure everyone in the Special:Contributions/newbies list gets a custom message. --Peter Talk 17:07, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I agree, I think it makes the most sense to wait until a user minimally makes an edit and hence shows up in Special:Contributions/newbies, for both those reasons and the one I mentioned above. JYolkowski 18:01, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I agree. 1 personalised messages to a user starting to make constructive edits is worth 100 generic welcome messages to new registrations. --Inas 18:23, 11 December 2008 (EST)
A Bot could be welcoming users that simply create an account and nobody would be any the wiser. I would suggest that a new user is only welcomed after they make their first edit(s) to an article or comment on a talk page, as you can then assess the quality of their work or questions they have. (Editing their own user page does not count, unless it is clear they are asking to be welcomed, or need to be stopped from doing something stupid.) You can then add a personal comment that would provide the user with additional guidance. Leaving the talk page unpopulated until the new user makes an edit means it is immediately obvious you are dealing with a new user, who may misunderstand or be ignorant of the guidelines, as the talk page link is red. I don't think it hurts to wait a while before welcoming a new user. -- Huttite 05:22, 13 January 2009 (EST)
This has been nagging my hindbrain for a week, now. It seems to me that we need to formalise the welcoming process a bit more. Could this become part of an expedition?
How about the Check-in Expedition? Just as they check your ticket or booking (and baggage) when you arrive at the check-in counter at an airport, bus, or train terminal, car hire company, or your accommodation, when you are travelling, the Wikitravel Check-in Expedition would promote the proper check-in formalities for all new users that edit their first page and all new articles. That is add a welcome message to guide the user (check the ticket/booking) and bring all new destination articles to at least an outline template status (luggage destination labels on the bags). -- Huttite 04:17, 21 January 2009 (EST)
No further comments? Perhaps I put my Check-in Expedition suggestion on the back-burner for a while? - Huttite 08:13, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Mailto:

Is there a policy about inserting mailto: tags into listings? It's done fairly often, but I think the policy should be not to use them, because it 1) adds to the impression that Wikitravel is primarily to be used as a web site rather than as printouts, 2) it's not in the template, 3) it looks ugly printed out, 4) such links are formatted inconsistently (e.g. sometimes you see the word "email:" used with the tag, sometimes not), and 5) most people who want to email are going to go to the hotel's web site anyway, where they usually will find a mailto: tag or contact box. Simply having a policy not to use the tags would simplify everything. Sailsetter 19:22, 8 January 2009 (EST)

E-mail addresses appear to be made into mailto: links automatically by the listings tags, as in below:
Seems like a useful feature to me that doesn't take up that much room. -- LtPowers 20:08, 8 January 2009 (EST)
Sailsetter, You make a big assumption that everyone can be contacted via a contact page using their website. What if their web page contact page is not working, or they don't have one? Sure the big hotels have one, but what about the little bed and breakfast places who have a single web page/advert or those strange businesses that have an e-mail address but no website, yet? Also, in many places you can send an internet e-mail for free, but website access costs money. Having the e-mail address is a definite plus. While not using the e-mail tags would siplify things for the editors, it would make things harder for the traveller. A prime directive of Wikitravel is The traveller comes first. Therefore, e-mail addresses should be listed, where they are available to be used. The need is to develop a policy that makes the presentation consistent. The above suggestion by LtPowers seems like a good way to do things to me. -- Huttite 03:02, 17 January 2009 (EST)
Just to be clear, it's not a suggestion; it's the way Wikitravel works right now if you use the "email" field for listings. LtPowers 10:18, 17 January 2009 (EST)
I think two issues are being confused here: whether we ought to give email addresses, and how we should present them. I certainly wasn't suggesting not including email addresses; I was questioning the presentation of email addresses in mailto: format, for the reasons I indicated. Another reason I could mention is that the mailto: function is widely detested on the internet, since if you don't use Outlook Express some other PC-based email system, but instead do all your emailing on a web site mailer like gmail, then it's irritating that whenever you click on a mailto: link, your system freezes while it chugs along bringing up Outlook Express, which you then have to close before you can do anything else. (This often happens because the mailto: tag is hidden behind some link like Contact Us.) It's surprisingly difficult to get your system not to do this, especially with Firefox, and when I say it's widely detested I'm not just claiming that: do a Google search on something like Firefox default email to see how many people are irritated by this and how complicated the suggested solutions are -- and so far I haven't been able to get any of them to work! Anyway, if people are going to use mailto: in Wikitravel, I think they should at least do it right. Put mailto: in the Wikitravel search box to see how ugly it can get. Sailsetter 10:51, 17 January 2009 (EST)
I guess I don't understand your complaint, then. The links are not hidden but are clearly e-mail addresses; anyone clicking on one should know what's going to happen. They should be formatted consistently as long as the listing tags are used correctly. And I have no idea what you mean by "It's not in the template". LtPowers 16:29, 17 January 2009 (EST)
It's not my complaint that the addresses are hidden, and in fact I don't see anything in my above remarks that implies that. My complaint about the appearance is that the addresses often appear on the screen like this:
        email: mailto:[email protected]

This is obviously wrong: the email address in question is not mailto:[email protected], it is [email protected] What I mean by it's not in the template is that for instance the listing template for hotels (maybe template is the wrong Wikitravel jargon for this, but that's what it really is)has an email input area reading

       email="" 

There's no indication that your email address is going to be turned into a mailto: tag, which I think as one contributor is confusing. Sailsetter 12:01, 18 January 2009 (EST)

Well, there's no indication that the data entered into the URL field will be turned into a link, either, but I guess I don't see that as a problem. We, as Wikitravel, want to show e-mail addresses if they're relevant, and there's no reason not to make them into a link if we're going to show them. As for the "email: mailto:" thing, can you show me an example? LtPowers 16:53, 18 January 2009 (EST)
I gave what I thought were several good reasons not to make them into a mailto: link, most especially that if I click on a URL link, I go to that link, everything ok, but if I click on a mailto: link and I don't want to use Outlook Express, my system goes bonkers. And as for the formatting, I gave an example eight lines above your request for an example, which I found by typing the string mailto: into the Wikitravel search box, as I explained a dozen lines above that. Sailsetter 14:58, 19 January 2009 (EST)
Sorry, by "example" I was hoping you could point to a specific article. I thought your example was just something you typed in. Doing a search, as you suggested, I see that your example comes from a page that isn't even using the listing tags. Someone hardcoded that in the wikitext markup. There's nothing we can do about that except fix it when we find it -- I'm surprised you haven't fixed it yourself, yet.
As for problems with mailto: links, I still don't see the problem. If your system doesn't handle mailto: links well, then don't click on e-mail addresses. LtPowers 18:27, 19 January 2009 (EST)
Before the listings tags existed, we used to type everything out manually, and it was (and technically still is) part of the MoS to build email addresses using the mailto format (though you were supposed to hide the "mail to" text). Emails are still included now in the listings tags if you use the ones in the edit tools box when editing a page... but unfortunately when the "add listings" box was created the person(s) creating it thought they would keep things to a minimum and left some fields off, email being one of them... personally I think that should be changed. I'm in favor of keeping the mailto format however, those who don't like it know how to not click on it, but those of us who do use outlook, etc, appreciate not having to copy-paste – cacahuate talk 19:38, 19 January 2009 (EST)

Phrasebook Audio?

I was thinking that it might be helpful to include audio with the phrasebooks. If it is not possible to insert audio, would it be possible to adjust external link policy to add websites at the end of the phrasebook articles? AHeneen 14:34, 19 January 2009 (EST)

If we want to do it, best to host the audio here I think. --Inas 23:59, 20 January 2009 (EST)

Pathfinder Expedition

I was presented with the opportunity to edit the article about Te Kuiti last night. (Coincidentally, I had planned a journey for some of my family members that went through there just the other week.) When I read the article I realised that there was so much more near Te Kuiti that the traveller should know about, but wouldn't, unless some links to other places, that were just up the road, were added to the article. It occurred to me that by concentrating on placing destination articles into a geographic location we may be missing out on the fun part of travel, which is getting there in the first place!

In writing destination articles about what is there, the traveller also need to be informed about what is nearby - this is something that we are not doing well. Perhaps that is because the people doing the writing know where the place they are writing about is because they have been there, or live there. But the traveller is not there, but somewhere else, so needs to know how to get there too - but nobody is explaining how to go there or leave there for somewhere else, a lot of the time.

It is like we have a huge, but rather bare, Christmas tree. It has lots of branches and leaves and some decorations hanging off the ends, but there are no tinsel streamers or strings of fairy lights to light up those destinations and join them together, so that the fairies and christmas elves can climb from branch to branch without needing to go back to the trunk each time.

I am proposing a Wikitravel:Pathfinder Expedition. The purpose of the Pathfinder Expedition is to create paths (wikilinks) between destination articles that mirror the real world. Pathfinders would populate the Get In and Get Out sections of articles with wikilinks to near-by destinations. In essence, paths are laid from one article to the next, as links between destinations, just as the tinsel and fairy lights wiring joins the ends of the Christmas tree branches, or roads join towns together.

In the case of Te Kuiti, which is on Highway 3 between Hamilton and New Plymouth, it is probably important to know that a very popular tourist attraction, the Waitomo glowworm caves are just up the road. This could justify taking a break and staying there, rather than somewere else. - Huttite 05:11, 21 January 2009 (EST)

I proposed a similar idea early last month, and we have already worked this out in your absence. Please have a look at Wikitravel:Routebox navigation. It has thusfar only been implemented for a few areas, such as Northern Texas, Alberta, Japan, and parts of Norway. It would be great to have another contributor to help flesh it out in other areas. Texugo 10:03, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Routebox navigation is definitely part of Pathfinding, but nowhere near all of it. I see Pathfinding as being more general than Routebox navigation, though they are similar and closely related.
While Routeboxes will work in countries that have numbered highways systems that those destinations are on (or have exits to), it doesn't quite work when your destination is off the highway, or there is no highway, or road - which is more the case with Waitomo and a number of other popular New Zealand destinations. Mind you, Routeboxes seem to be a very good idea, though I haven't delved into much of the fine detail, yet.
One potential pothole I can see in the Routeboxes idea is that routes should intersect at, or close to, destination (route nodes). I just wonder how Routeboxes would cope with route intersections or junctions that are between destinations, but not close enough to be in a destination article. For example, some parts of the NZ highway system intersect at road junctions between towns but there is nothing at the junction to justify a destination article - its just a place where two roads meet, nothing else, not even a lay-by with a picnic table.
Pathfinding is about wikilinking Wikitravel articles in a way that reflects the real world. It is about finding paths in Wikitravel that allow the reader to wikitravel (i.e. web-surf) from from one article to the next, in a way that reflects how they might travel in the real world. It may document the real world in some way, as Routebox navigation does. However, it is primarily about how Wikitravel articles are linked together, in (reasonably) logical ways, that is different to the tree-like geographic hierarchy. Perhaps I should (now) mention that my ulterior motives for suggesting pathfinding is to eliminate orphaned and dead-end pages, as well as trying to break down the wiki-walls and untie the wiki-knots that the tree-like geographic hierarchy tends to promote. Pathfinding is about connecting the destination leaf nodes on different branches of the the geographic hierachical tree with wiki-links. Wikipedia call it building the web.
Note: It has been proposeded that there are just 6 degrees of separation between any two people/places. - that suggests it should be possible to get between any two Wikitravel articles by following no more than 6 wikilinks. The goal of the Pathfinder Expedition is to make that a reality. -- Huttite 02:50, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Could you be a little more specific? It sounds like you are proposing that we concentrate on something that we already try to do-- are you just talking about inserting links in the text part? Texugo 07:01, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I too would like to see an example, maybe you can work something up in your userspace? I'm hesitant to support to much of a move towards more boxes etc, I think it tends to be more useful to keep our structure and hierarchy as simple and straight forward as possible, which would be to flesh out some more "get out" sections as good examples of what they should be. But I also don't want to shoot down your idea before you've had a chance to flesh it out and show us what's on your mind :) – cacahuate talk 13:18, 22 January 2009 (EST)
To quote Huttite: "Pathfinders would populate the Get In and Get Out sections of articles with wikilinks to near-by destinations." I don't think he/she is proposing anything radical here. Just an Expedition to help make sure articles are well-connected. LtPowers 20:31, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I can read what Huttite wrote of course, but it is ambiguous-- by "pathfinder" he could be meaning "users who contribute to this expedition" or he could mean a box of some kind or a listing in a particular format. That's why I asked. Texugo 23:52, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Or it could mean, I'm travelling from here to there, what do I need to see on the way. Don't just tell me the way - find me a path.. --Inas 00:08, 23 January 2009 (EST)

Yes I am proposing an Expedition to make sure articles are well connected. Yes, we already do most of this, implicitly. We, are all already users who contribute to this expedition, even though it doesn't exist in any concrete form, yet. What I am trying to do is explicitly articulate the things that we all have learned to do, and not do, distill that knowledge, generate some documentation about it, and that then provides all Wikitravelers with a ready made guidelines about being a (better) Pathfinder. I do not see that we need to change anything that is currently done to link articles. There is no need for special route boxes; I'll leave that to the Route Expedition participants, who are Pathfinders with a special mission. There might be a few new templates to identify articles that need linking, but don't have a good home at the moment. I will take on board the suggestion to work up a draft Expedition brief on my user page over the next week or so. Hopefully this will explain things better. Thanks for your feedback, as it has helped to focus my thinking too. - Huttite 08:06, 31 January 2009 (EST)

OK - Proposal is at User:Huttite/Pathfinder Expedition - Discuss on the talk page. - Huttite 08:34, 2 February 2009 (EST)

Random page in specified country

I'm here to suggest a great new killer feature on wikitravel! Suppose you're in some god-forsaken country and want to have fun. You navigate to the country's wikitravel-page and hit "random site" and *ZAPP* you're in Leh, Ladakh, India. Fantastic! I know it will probably take som pretty thorough revisions of the wiki-media framework, but I'm just releasing the idea into the wild.

Greetings from Aarhus, Denmark. 23.12, 21. january 2009 (CET)

Thanks for your suggestion! We keep all of our feature requests on Wikitravel Shared. You can add a new feature request to the Shared:Category:Open feature requests. LtPowers 19:27, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Spam filter

I'm getting a spam filter block when I try to edit Ireland. Is there any way to know which link is causing the problem? LtPowers 09:02, 26 January 2009 (EST)

I removed an entry listing rates for adult calls. No link, but that seems to have fixed it. --Wandering 16:57, 26 January 2009 (EST)

User CSS customizations

On Wikipedia, I have extensive CSS and JavaScript customizations set (e.g. personal "monobook.css"), along with a different skin. Along with other benefits, this makes it very obvious when I get accidentally logged out on Wikipedia. Here, for some reason, my "p-personal" links ("preferences", "watchlist", etc.) display no different than if I was logged out, including displaying "My page" and "log in/create account". When I go over to Shared, it shows "log out" and "Aude".

1) Why do pages here display as if I'm logged out, even though I'm logged in?

2) I would like to customize my css file, but that feature appears to be disabled along with the alternative skins. Why? Where can a request be made to enable these features?

Aude 13:05, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Caching on Wikitravel is weird. Head on over to Shared and make a tech request. Jpatokal 22:24, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Added: shared:Tech:User css customizations and shared:Tech:Personal links. Though, I see a lot of requests that are not completed yet. Aude 23:02, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Are other people seeing the "log in / create account" link at the top of the page, even when you are logged in? Or is it just me? Aude 23:04, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I had it, it was fixed, and now it's b0rked again *sigh* --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 08:36, 2 February 2009 (EST)

All of a sudden listings pulled

I have been updating my listings for audio walking tours and all of a sudden they are getting pulled because of external link violations. Only thing different that I did was add a link to the mobile site and the android application... Does anyone know if that possibly could be the reason? Thanks 98.210.115.180 14:58, 3 February 2009 (EST)

See Wikitravel talk:Where you can stick it#Audio Commentary for Walking Tours (Spam?) . -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:13, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Because people here pull stuff that is NOT TOS violations. Sertman is a great example of this practice. He just pulls some lsitings, while leaving others. Apparently, he especially likes to pull listings for small business, many of whom who actually contribute material, while leaving listings for giant corporations. Like any CEOs from fortune 500 companies are contributing anything worthwhile. Wiki needs a better structure, too many petty people with hypocritical standards are huring the site too much. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ACTransport (talkcontribs)

I presume you are referring to the deletion of your limo service (and plenty of others) from Atlantic City? This is a bit of a borderline case, but they certainly don't belong under "See". Jpatokal 00:50, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Try and appreciate what we are trying to do. We are trying to build a travel site that is relevant to traveler. Not to meet the needs of business owners small or large. Feel free to join the many discussions across the site about how to best accomplish that goal, and incorporate business owners listings in the most useful and relevant way. I don't see any evidence here that anyone has an axe to grind with small business owners, or hypocritical standards. Each person is trying their best to follow policy and build a guide as best they can. --Inas 00:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Yeah, thanks for singling me out, sigh, if you'd care to elaborate and give me some specific examples of this practice, I'd be happy to go back and revise such changes. The only business owners I can recall who've actually stayed and contributed this place is User:HotelsCombined and User:WineCountryInn, if I've missed any such user I'd genuinely really like to know. And the notion that I support fortune 500 companies over small businesses is very much wrong, when I travel I always prefer sleeping or dining at small personal businesses, and hence actually prefer seeing them listed here on wikitravel so I have a better chance to find them. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 02:19, 5 February 2009 (EST)
And a great example of what happens if we leave Wikitravel to the whims of business owners look here (Rome), please tell me how a huge pile of listings with little information but links to their website, compare that to a well moderated sleep section like Copenhagen's downtown, I dare you to come up with some convincing arguments that the Rome example is more useful to travellers. Besides I fail to see how you can justify these accusations since all you ever did around here was to add a link to your business. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:00, 5 February 2009 (EST)

"Help translate" tag proposal

I have been doing some serious work on Ouro Preto and Mariana and other Brazilian locations, and I noticed that, unsurprisingly, there are a lot of destinations for which the English site has but a skeleton, while the Portuguese version is pretty fleshed out. I'm sure this is the case for many other locations in various other languages as well. In order to promote better cooperation between language versions, I'd like to propose a tag or set of tags for these cases, to be placed at the bottom of such an article or possibly even at the top, indicating that a more complete article exists in x language, and compelling users that speak that language to help translate the information here on en:. What do you guys think? Texugo 11:49, 4 February 2009 (EST)

I think that is a great idea. Additionally, it may be helpful to place a smaller tag at the bottom of the superior articles, compelling multilingual users to contribute to the language articles with less information. Jtesla16 15:18, 4 February 2009 (EST)
I think putting a tag in the superior articles would have us with a tag in almost every article we have, since there is bound to be at least one language version without much of an article. The number of articles which have a good article elsewhere but not here are bound to be more manageable I think. Any other thoughts? Texugo 23:17, 11 February 2009 (EST)
That's true. Your original idea is probably best then. How do we go about creating such a tag? Do we need permission? Jtesla16 08:44, 12 February 2009 (EST)
We don't need permission and I can create it if we decide on the text of the message, but I'd like to hear from a few more people and get a little broader consensus before we start.Texugo 09:58, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I think this idea is quite worthwhile, and it would be nice to also create a Wikitravel:Article translation page, on which we'd add a link to each page that has the Template:Translate template. To increase the visibility of the translation page, we could insert links into the Babel templates (e.g., [[Wikitravel:Article translation#Spanish|español]]). Language on Template:Translate could be something like "This article exists on the [[:xx:Article|XX language version]] in superior form. Please help us with translation!" --Peter Talk 11:59, 12 February 2009 (EST)

I like the way this is solved at Wikipedia (or Wiktionary?): they "star" the most high-quality language article (in the list which is already under the Toolbox), thus encouraging to improve other language versions from that starred one. --DenisYurkin 18:03, 14 February 2009 (EST)

Did someone end up creating a template for this? I think it's a great idea. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:50, 11 April 2009 (EDT)

What's the Deal?

Ok. I've already tried reaching one of the Systems Operator about this but apparently he is not active. I am having an issue with the admins, one in particular. It's a looong story. But the summary is I try to keep editing pages with incorrect info and it keeps being reverted by the original author who happens in these cases to be a bureaucrat. I've asked for a little counselling from Evan but apparently he isn't around anymore. My fear is the admins are finding it difficult to regulate themselves or abiding by their own rules. Perhaps it is I who am not clear about it but the message I'm getting is stating facts about a place are not important to the traveller.

If you want to read more about this I will post the letter I sent to Evan up on my talk page. If anyone's got some constructive advice and isn't worried about towing the company line then please share. I warn you though it's a bit of a bookPaula 01:00, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Can you elaborate on your problem? Where? AHeneen 01:09, 5 February 2009 (EST)
I do believe Paula has a problem with me, and she's referring to the utterly bizarre saga of Talk:Yeongjong Island (plus possibly a few previous headbuttings on Talk:Dokdo). I've said all I have to say about this, so now I'll shut up and let y'all have your turn. Jpatokal 03:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Jani: We do not know each other. I am not taking this personally. I believe you are this way with everyone. I have a problem with your lack of compromise and your tone. When you are "helping" me, it reads like you are scolding me for f.....g up and your way is the only way. I and I'm thinking most have no agenda when contributing to articles. I at least am doing this simply to share accurate and helpful information on an area I am very familiar with. I simply like the idea of Wikitravel. Therefore I don't appreciate being spoken to like a wayward child or an incompetent employee when we are all doing this basically for the fun of it. Understandable?

I think a number of admins have been observing this particular incident from afar. I personally know nothing about the island in question and haven't gotten involved, but one suggestion I might offer is to refrain from questioning motives and character of other editors as it clouds the issue. Asking for someone who "isn't worried about towing the company line" and accusing admins of "finding it difficult to regulate themselves or abiding by their own rules" is neither relevant nor helpful to resolving any issues you might have with the content of an article. In addition, please understand that the goal is consensus, which means that all sides need to make a good faith effort to at least consider the point of view of those who disagree with them. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:14, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Ryan: Excuse me, but I could not disagree more with the first point. When there are principles stated and people given special privileges/responsibilities to uphold them then there is an expectation they will. When a little power is involved among a smaller group of people, there is always a risk of abuse and "fat-head syndrome." I understand it is not helpful to criticise motives when something happens once in a while. But when it is a similar situation that occurs consistently over a lengthy period of time then it is never wrong to question why everyone who belongs to that group happen to have the exact same perspective.

The whole point of this site is so many people from all over can contribute to it. Not one or a few. If that was the goal then this site would be one of many already out there. Therefore with more voices cum more perspectives. Yes, consensus is good. I agree. But how do we reach consensus? By bullying? By having everyone think the same way? No. It's by using reason, doing some research on the facts and compromising.

Evan is not active here for the foreseeable future, besides Evan and Jptokal have been working together pretty closely for a number of years, so I doubt you would find much sympathy on that front, in any case, the way this place works, is if you think an admin is crossing a line, you take it up with one of the other active admins. (you can see a list here). Also, while I know Jptokal's direct style can often leave quite a bit to be desired, you often come across as overly aggressive yourself, which isn't exactly helping things, least of all if you are crying out for backup. Also in this case, reverting to an "edit war" is just about the worst thing you can do in these circumstances.
Now regarding the issue at hand, I think you might have misinterpreted the motives behind the edits, which I suspect would be 1) The traveller comes first 2) We want as simple a structure as possible. Now I've never been north of Gyeongju, and hence not an expert on anything Seoul, but it seems like the only ones that would really be hurt and sad we would call this amalgamated island Yeongjong, would be locals on Yongyu, and they hardly need a travel guide. most maps I could find, identify it as one island anyway (lest one from where the airport was still under construction): [2], [3], [4], [5]. Which leads be to point 2, the amount of content in the guide hardly merits a split. If this is really something you'd loose sleep over, i would suggest either that you fill in so much useful content for Yeongyu, that it make sense to split the article, or that we discuss a rename the whole shabang to "Yeongjong-Yeongyu island", but from my light research on the subject, it does seem pointless as most places refer to the airport as being on Yeongjong, wikipedia even writes "The previously separate Yongyu, Sammok, and Sinbul Islands have been joined to Yeongjong Island by an area of reclaimed land". --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:13, 23 January 2009 (EST)
Ha, Ha. You'd be laughing too if you saw my letter to Evan. What you have written is exactly what I had assumed and predicted the problems are with Wikitravel. You have confirmed to me that the "Old Boys Club" mentality is as pervasive as I feared it was. At least you freely admit the obvious bias that exists within the admins and which you demonstrate yourself. So, you will forgive me if I don't consider your criticism of what you perceive to be my "overly aggressive" ways as credible. Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)
It is not a "cry...for backup" as you put it that I am looking for, it is the observance to the original ideals, objectivity, fairness and the freedom to make legitamite edits, of the site that I was demanding. And when I did not receive that from the people I thought most committed to those principles I was taken aback and responded concurrently.Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)
By the way, I was not the one who had asked for the page to be blocked. I am always willing to compromise and have in the past. And if Evan is not active why has he not been removed on the active list?Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)
No.1: If the traveller comes first shouldn't we be giving them accurate information? Does that not count as being necessary? It's not about, "my pony is prettier than your pony." It's about do these things exist or not. Is this information necessary or not? I don't know about you. I REALLY don't know about you but that's what I understand as the "traveller coming first" to mean. If the facts are not important and you refuse to see them and what you're really interested in is creating your own terms for places and inventing things because it's easier or follows some arbitrary guideline beknownst only to you and your band of bureacrats then PLEASE, PLEASE tell me now. I will be happy to let you have your way so you can play with yourselves. But if you genuinely are interested in accepting accurate information that is helpful to anyone visiting these places then believe you me, my "aggression" will subside.
No.2: Have you actually seen my edits? You would be hard pressed to see a simpler structure in some of them. I would be hurt. Every Korean local I have explained this bizarre argument I'm having with y'all would be hurt. And most importantly, anyone trying to get to the beaches and markets on Yongyu Island would be hurt. The official Incheon tourist map lists it as an island [6], Wikipedia describes the map as Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island [7], the description on the link YOU listed also describes it as Yeongjong and Yongyu Island [8], the airport PR Centre confirms that distinction as well. I mean WTF? Even information you and Jani have listed say exactly what I'm saying. I mean which part is difficult to understand? Every official body acknowledges this. There are 2 islands and the airport is on reclaimed land between them. That's it. Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)Paula 00:48, 5 February 2009 (EST)


Hmmm maybe we have a clash of cultures here, but I was actually trying to mediate, because I feel that if we could reconcile our differences, and come to a mutual understanding, you have the potential to become a good contributor, and hence I was not trying to "gang up", and being active around here for less than year, I hardly think I'd count among any "Old Boys club". Jani suggested that most travellers consider this one island, and I provided some links to maps and wikipedia suggesting he was not alone with this view - when you're trying to work out a compromise, the first thing you should do is trying to appreciate the reverse view. Next I suggested a possible compromise renaming the article to "Yeongjong-Yeongyu islands", this seem reasonable to me, as it is indisputably now one island physically, and travellers arrive smack in the middle of the joint entity, hence I suspect anyone not familiar with Korea, would search information about the "island" he has landed on, unaware that this used to be two islands. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 02:41, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Sertmann: Clash of cultures. How so? I appreciate you trying to explain your message. I believe I have addressed our correspondence in the message above. However, I should point this out for future reference when someone is complaining of being "ganging uped on" it is unnecessary to state that opinion as also being your own.

For the latter point, I also think it is reasonable to use both names for the article. I have never disputed it is physically one island. What is being disputed is whether that physically one island should rightfully be referred to as Yeonjongdo. It should be noted that Coney Island and Long Island in New York are also physically one big island. They too were formerly separate islands that were then stuck together by reclaimed land. And although they are part of New York they are by no means one big Coney Island. I knew watching that Britney Murphy movie would come in handy one of these days.

There is no "old boys' club" here-- most of us have never met each other, and we certainly do not always agree with each other. I don't know much about this particular case but it seems to me that 1) they are now physically one island, regardless of whether part of it is artificial or not, and therefore 2) even if locals still refer to them as separate islands, what is really meant is that they are still distinct, even though have become districts of what is now the same island, and 3) there is not enough information present to warrant splitting this into two articles. I might suggest making it clear in the intro that there are two basic districts here, and I wouldn't mind if the listings told which part they were in as part of the address/directions. Certainly no one is trying to quash listings on the Yongyu side. Sertmann's suggestion may have some merit, although I might suggest leaving "islands" out of the title and just call it "Yeongjong-Yeongyu" to avoid misrepresentation. Even if kept at simply "Yeongjong", I think the "island" part should probably be dropped from the title, since it includes things not on the Yeongjong side-- it's one thing to redirect a neighboring district, admitting that we have done so, but quite another to say that Yeongjong is now the name of the whole she-bang when that may not be quite true. Texugo 06:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Tuxego: "There is no 'old boys' club' here." Says you, old boy;) Latter part sounds reasonable except for the leaving out the island part.

But they are not distinct in any meaningful sense: once you cross the bridge from the mainland, you're on one island, period, and the Korean National Tourism Organization (how much more authoritative can you get?) labels the whole island "Yeongjongdo" [1] [2]. Jpatokal 08:23, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Jani: Thought you said you'd shut up.

I lied. Now, what do you have to say about the KNTO links above? Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Surprise, surprise. I have this to say: [3][4]. It's called different information from the same source. HAH!Paula 03:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
If both names are used locally, however, wouldn't it make sense to include them both? LtPowers 08:59, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Both names are used in the 'Understand' section (though, I'm not sure why 'real' is included). Why not just move the text in the understand section into the lead (since it includes references to both the airport as well as the beaches - useful stuff from the travelers point of view). That way, both names are included and the reader gets a succinct description of the place. --Wandering 10:53, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Above all, please assume good faith. When an issue starts to get you upset, it's a good idea to take a step back, and remember that the way some geographic location is described on some travel wiki is not ultimately that big of a deal. Personally, I don't think you are correct on this matter (this [5] looks pretty clearly like one island to me), but more importantly, this dispute is simply not relevant for travelers, and I think we would all be better served by trying to add travel content (where to go, what to see, etc.) than continuing this dispute. --Peter Talk 14:28, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Y'all: Hmmm. Maybe I should've put this here a lot sooner. Good to see reasonable differing solutions. I've taken in all that's been written, will do some editing and see what happens. Thank you much and peace.Paula 03:53, 6 February 2009 (EST)

I suggest that, instead of editing the page, you list your present concerns with the current content of the article on the Talk page, and we get a third party to change the wording. Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)

. Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Nice try Patakaillo. I think "my concerns" have been more than sufficiently outlined on this page, the Yeongjong do page and my own page. I offer that a third party review the edits I do and if again there is more disagreement then we cross that bridge when we get to it. Paula 03:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)

What would y'all think if I title the article Incheon International Airport and describe its location and surroundings in the subsequent headings? I think it would make more sense to put the focus on the airport itself instead of the islands which would take care of the whole debate.Paula 00:53, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I think that would be misleading, because unlike (eg) Kansai or Chubu airports, there is more on the island(s) than just the airport. Jpatokal 07:53, 10 February 2009 (EST)
THIRD PARTY please!Paula 03:29, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Is there anything else of significant interest on the island than the airport? If there are points of interest then I would stick to the islands name because i would search for the island name instead of the airport. Maybe it would be good to have some add-on like if there are a golf course, spa, posh temple etc. to pass the time while on transit. This would interest me. jan 16:21, 11 February 2009 (EST)
(ec) It is kind of hard for a third party to suggest something, but let me try. It seems that there is stuff to do on the island independently of the airport (ironically, the stuff to do appears to be on Yongyu Island!) suggesting that, for Koreans anyway, the island(s) may be a destination independent of the airport. If that is the case, I suggest leaving it as is, popping the reference to Yongyu and its beaches into the lead (presumably, the Koreans who visit only the beaches will distinguish between the two islands), and leaving it at that. Incheon International Airport as well as Yongyu Island can then redirect to this article. But, I don't know enough (nothing is a better word) to know if this is wise or accurate so this is just a suggestion. --Wandering 16:22, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Sigh — Paula just went ahead and moved the article to Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island, without any discussion. I agree with User:Wandering that including "Yongyu Island" in the lead is OK, but I see no reason to saddle the article with such a verbose name. → Talk:Yeongjong Island Jpatokal 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Wikitravel:Collaboration of the month

Our collaboration(s) of the week/month project has been broken for over a year now, with the collaborations getting little if any attention, and even the collaboration process going without updates on a regular basis. We've tossed around a lot of different ideas to rejuvenate the process, and I'd like to see the latest incarnation get a fighting chance.

Please stop by the Wikitravel:Collaboration of the month page to see what's changed, take a look at the tasks we're hoping to accomplish for this month's collaboration (Mexico City), and try to make a few edits over the rest of this month to our collaboration! I'm sure everyone has the time to make some mos edits to even just one "Mid-range" section of one "Eat" section of one district article. Plunge forward! --Peter Talk 18:12, 5 February 2009 (EST).

Front Page

Along with the Collaborations of Month, we have a few other prominent embarrassments on our front page, the news section and the discover sections...

Wikitravel News Team

I'd like to float the idea of starting a News Team, and while that might sound ambitious for the amount of regulars we have around here, I was merely toying with the thoughts of writing up a couple of user names on a project page somewhere, and set it as a personal goal for these users to come up with two travel related news stories per month, which really shouldn't be all that hard.

Rotating discover

What's the status of that bot, can anyone reprogram it? I was thinking (without knowing anything about the scripting) we could divide these into two categories - a date specific category which shows up once in the relevant time frame, and a rotating category where we add all the old (and any new) general discover items and rotate between them on a daily basis, and use these to fill up where we don't have any date specific items. We should already have so many of these items, that it would be a decent time frame between the individual items showing up. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:12, 5 February 2009 (EST)

I think having an expedition or the like for the news is a good idea and sounds interesting. I definitely agree we could do a better job with the news. I'd be curious to know what the bot's status is too. JYolkowski 21:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
Same here, having a "News Expedition" sounds like an excellent idea! The news section is rather pathetic as it stands now. PerryPlanet Talk 14:30, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I've created Wikitravel:News Expedition. Anyone who's interested, I'd invite you to visit that page and discuss. Thanks, JYolkowski 22:39, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Problem with right alignment for images

I just noticed something strange about the images on some pages. Sometimes they straddle the right margin, obscuring the advertisements in the margin. Can anyone shed some light on that subject? Jonathan 784 23:44, 7 February 2009 (EST)

Phantom edit errors

I have been editing the article for Hamamatsu, and I have noticed that for certain listings, when I click on the listing's edit button, I get a pop-up error message in red, reading "Listing has been changed by somebody else. Please reload the page and reedit." For an example, try "Nakatajima Sand Dunes" under the See sections, or "Toraya" under budget eat section. Nobody else is actually editing the page, and the problem still exists even after purging the page. Anyone have an idea as to what is going on? Texugo 06:23, 8 February 2009 (EST)

I encountered the same problem when editing a listing on Newfoundland and Labrador. When I tried to edit the Cape Race listing using the edit form I got a red warning message, but no form. I found that if I purged the page cache (first, I think) and edited the listing via the page edit section link then the problem went away. I could then access/edit the listing using the edit listing form again. I suspect what the message means is that the pages in the cache and the database are not synchronised, so purging the cache is needed. The link to purge the page cache is at the bottom of the edit form page. - Huttite 06:55, 8 February 2009 (EST)
As I said, I tried purging the cache, and I did edit the Sand Dunes listing from the section link, but the individual edit link still didn't work afterward...Texugo 06:58, 8 February 2009 (EST)
What I did do was change the URL inside the listing tag. Perhaps it is the content of the listing tag itself that needs to be edited, not just the text after the tag. Perhaps try removing the listing tag then adding it back? Brutal, but ... you never know. - Huttite 07:08, 8 February 2009 (EST)
The listing editor is really buggy, which is a problem, since it's purpose is to make editing easier for new/casual users. --Peter Talk 17:28, 8 February 2009 (EST)

Wikitravel sucks?

You're telling me...

For anyone else? Page loading usually takes an incredible amount of time (~30 seconds per page?), although it occasionally works fine for about 5 minutes. I get logged out randomly, particularly when page loading is really slow. Occasionally I'll be logged in without my logged-in tabs (move, delete, etc.). These problems are occurring for me on Shared & other language versions as well. Am I wallowing alone in this server cesspool? Or is this happening to other users? --Peter Talk 10:44, 9 February 2009 (EST)

I don't seem to be having any trouble here. *crosses fingers* Texugo 10:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Pages are loading very slow already this morning. Now it is a bit better but still slower than normal jan 11:07, 9 February 2009 (EST) ...but the purging isse is back. I could not see the comment of Texugo before i entered my text and purged jan 11:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)
It's very sporadic for me. The site was unusable for most of the morning. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:47, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Very slow this morning. Quite a few too many connection errors. Several connection refused errors. Cached content seems okay, but recent change diffs are so slow as to be effectively unusable. Sucks. --Inas 22:05, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Swings from good to not even loading, like Ryan described. And here I thought it was just my internet connection... PerryPlanet Talk 12:02, 10 February 2009 (EST)
For the most part, the site is simply unusable for me (for editing purposes). It might be worthwhile to try and get IB's attention, but I'll abstain—dealing with them usually dampens my Wikitravel enthusiasm. --Peter Talk 12:27, 10 February 2009 (EST)
Should be better now. KevinSours 15:37, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I emailed IB - here is their response for anyone who is curious:

Hello Ryan!  Thank you for reporting the slowdown.  We made significant
updates to the page caches, et al. and the Wiki should be speedier than
ever!

Cheers,
Keith

-- Ryan • (talk) • 16:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)

And so it appears --Inas 17:19, 10 February 2009 (EST)
for an hour or so, anyway.. --Inas 22:43, 10 February 2009 (EST)
Is there still a problem? I checked the webservers this morning and everything seems to be fine KevinSours 10:36, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Nevermind, I see it KevinSours 11:04, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Speed is back almost changing between zero & ok with minutes. Worked well for one hour but now i give up for todayjan 16:08, 11 February 2009 (EST)

April 4th

The site was wholly unusable for more than a day—I couldn't so much as access articles. Anyone else having problems? --Peter Talk 21:23, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Not yesterday, I wasn't. Today I was but just on one of my computers. LtPowers 21:52, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
Unusable for much of Saturday and Sunday to me. Someone ask Brent Conver, who oversees travel sites including Wikitravel at parent company Internet Brands, how this could be. Gorilla Jones 22:37, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Scheduled down time for maintenance

Tonight, 2/11, the site will be down for scheduled maintenance for about 3 hours beginning at 10PM PST. Visitors who come to the site during that time will see a "Down for Maintenance" page. We apologize for the inconvenience. JuCo 16:05, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Is it a problem for English version to update MediaWiki:Sitenotice ? -- Tatata 20:55, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I've done that. Admins, please revert my change after the maintenance work is finished. --Peter Talk 22:33, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Thank you for your patience during this week’s maintenance. We upgraded the hardware, the database server got a memory upgrade and we added an additional webserver. This will address the speed and timing out issues and make the site faster and more stable. We will be monitoring the site for any issues. Thanks! JuCo 15:52, 13 February 2009 (EST)
The upgrades are much appreciated. Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:50, 13 February 2009 (EST)

As long as this issue appears every several months--maybe IB can establish an objective and publicly-available metrics of site performance? Percentage of pageviews that took 0-0.1s, 0.1-0.5s, 0.5-2s, 2-5s, 5-10s, 10+ seconds, shown in historical dynamics, would make much easier to understand whether particular user's problem is really a sitewide, or not. --DenisYurkin 22:02, 14 February 2009 (EST)

Watch listing a user

User:The NOW seems to have some pretty adamant ideas about racism and homosexuality in the south, is there any way to watch list registered users so I/we don't accidentally miss some of his (at times rather offensive) edits? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:22, 17 February 2009 (EST)

Yeongjong and Yongyu

Argh. I need help with screw up. Trying to rename the page but for some reason it went to the mispelled one and redirected the correct page to it. Now I can't put the article under the correct heading. Can someone delete Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island? There's nothing there. Thanx.Paula 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)

When to travel?

I was trying to find information which places of the world are good to travel around in a given period, and I cannot find the right place. First, I tried months - but May and so on are parts of the calendar of events, and tell you nothing about whether the given places are warm, cold, subject to hurricanes or such. Then I tried continents, but Europe and such are also silent on this subject :( --Piotrus 14:08, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Many articles do have sections on climate, but not all. An entire continent like Europe is too big to generalize about climate. And most locations will have things to do and see all year round; there is no one best time to go. LtPowers 10:52, 25 February 2009 (EST)
Let me rephrase my question, just like my parents put it to me: "We want to go to somewhere warm around late May / early June. Were would that be?" I'd wager there are more people asking similar question. Thus my suggestion that wikitravel may want to have an answer to give them. Personally, I think that adding information about climates to the months articles would be the way to go, something along the way: "May is the warm season in... cold and snow can be found in... bad wheater makes ... not good but... and so on." --Piotrus 14:08, 25 February 2009 (EST)
Definitely support creating a best-place-for-each-season list. I think it'll be easier to start with a single article, broken down into sections by months. --DenisYurkin 12:53, 28 February 2009 (EST)

xkcd

Wikitravel is mentioned in a xkcd [6] webcomic http://xkcd.com/548/! --Flip666 writeme! • 09:16, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Nice :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:52, 25 February 2009 (EST)
Of course! Wikitravel = Hitchhikers guide! 97.91.175.19 19:59, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Renaming Articles

Could somebody direct me to the instructions on re-naming/ post it here. ThankyouHJ.Phillips94 16:18, 25 February 2009 (EST)

I've been an admin for a bit too long, but don't you have a move tab on the top of your screen? -> click it and type in the new name of the page, voila! but remember to check What links here in the box on the left side of your screen too before moving anything --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:51, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Open Street Map

For those using Open Street Map maps, or considering the use of them, the OSMF board has released the proposed new licence text. For those interesting in mapping using OSM data, would likely be aware that the licence conditions on OSM data has always been unclear, possibly requiring CC-BY-SA 2.0, and acknowledgement of every individual data producer, on every map produced by any means, and the release of any source data that is combined with the OSM data into a derived work. The proposed licence would intends to allow a category of works called Produced Works that could be released under a different licence, as long as they are not reverse engineered back to a database. This would hopefully make the licence status of wikitravel maps derived from OSM data, as well as the status of any collective work using OSM data, and allow them to be released all under the Wikitravel SA licence. See [7]. This position is not without it detractors, however, with people maintaining that this doesn't offer enough share-alike protection to a derived work. If you have been involved in the OSM project, or are a member of the OSMF, or just interested, then you may care to offer your opinion on the wiki [8], or at Open Data Commons [9]. --Inas 18:10, 1 March 2009 (EST)

Procedures for changing article status to usuable and guide

I understand the criteria for usuable and guide status, but did not find any explanation to the procedures for changing the status. Could someone explain? --ClausHansen 21:58, 1 March 2009 (EST)

Have a look at Wikitravel:City_guide_status. In short, just update the tag yourself, when you feel it meets the criteria. If someone disagrees with you, then discuss and reach consensus. --Inas 22:14, 1 March 2009 (EST)

How did someone get my email address?

I recently got emailed by someone on Wikitravel. When I asked how he got my address, he said through the Wikitravel email form. What is that? Does that actually exist? If it does, I don't know anything about it. What's up? Paula 03:36, 2 March 2009 (EST)

When someone views your user page, there is a link to send you an email. It doesn't reveal your email address, just sends it to you. It explains this in your preferences, "E-mail address is optional, but it enables others to contact you through your user or user_talk page without needing to reveal your identity." --Inas 03:45, 2 March 2009 (EST)
Important: if you email someone via wiki, then your email address (from your settings) will be in "from:" field of the email. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 06:48, 2 March 2009 (EST)
Ah. Thanx. Got a splash of paranoia for a sec there.Paula 03:40, 3 March 2009 (EST)
You know, when you emailed him back to ask how he got your email, he probably got yours in the process. Just fyi :) -99.237.234.116 00:44, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

Help rating Rail Travel in the UK

Would welcome some thoughts on the rating for the travel topic Rail travel in the UK. Since I contributed much of the material on the page, I've added a page rating with some trepidation (following the guide for rating travel topics as far as I can). Suggestions and challenges to that rating appreciated. Thanks Jamesbrownontheroad 12:30, 3 March 2009 (EST)

list of airport articles

I wonder if we have any single place where all airport articles are listed.

What can be a right place for that -- a section in Travel topics? Or they are better grouped via Category:Airports? --DenisYurkin 17:51, 3 March 2009 (EST)

Don't we only to have like 3 of those; O'Hare International Airport, Heathrow Airport and Kansai International Airport, they tend to be deleted when they pop up
On a similar note; Barajas, Frankfurt, Charles De Gaule, Changhi, LAX and JFK - would be useful additions, though again, we have that bloody vague "city like" policy written down somewhere. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 22:03, 10 March 2009 (EDT)
JFK was specifically merged to New York (city) by consensus at VFD. The rule of thumb in play appears to involve the amount of information about the airport that is present in the Get In section of the city article -- if it gets to be too much, we can split it, but it's a very high bar. LtPowers 22:19, 10 March 2009 (EDT)
Well, there we have it. A single place where all the airport articles are listed. --Inas 23:35, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

Israel Regions

User:Govrin has a proposal for updating the Israel region hierarchy at Talk:Israel#Improving the ISRAEL value and currect it's geography and has requested feedback. Could anyone who knows the region comment? Much obliged. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:04, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

No feedback was given, so Govrin plunged forward and I regret to say that (IMHO) the result is an even worse mess than before. I've rolled back for time being, but additional comments would be very welcome. Jpatokal 00:04, 18 March 2009 (EDT)

Proper Namespace

Hi, I'm new to wikitravel and there is one thing I just can't figure out. My contribution is to the Sai page. All the other pages I've seen have a Asia:East:Japan categorization. For example, Mutsu is a city close to Sai. Mutsu has the list of locations at the top under the title. When I started the page, I went to the Shimokita Peninsula area and created a link for Sai, but when I clicked on it, the page didn't have the location categorization. Does anyone know why? Thanks Marie438 21:40, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Hi. I think you are talking about creating the right breadcrumb navigation for the article. See Wikitravel:Breadcrumb navigation for information on doing that. Let us know if it doesn't answer your question. --Inas 21:46, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
Fixed. Your only problem was that when implementing breadcrumb navigation, you have to use underscores instead of spaces, i.e. {{IsPartOf|Shimokita_Peninsula}} instead of {{IsPartOf|Shimokita Peninsula}} - Texugo 02:12, 17 March 2009 (EDT)
Thanks! I really appreciate the help.Marie438 02:18, 17 March 2009 (EDT)
Actually, if you use IsPartOf, you don't need the underscore. LtPowers 08:21, 17 March 2009 (EDT)
Ah, true. I forgot about that. But it was originally IsIn and I changed it. Texugo 08:49, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

Robot.txt on userpages

Do we disallow google crawling on our user pages, so stuff like User:Beyaz's user page, or User:HotelsCombined and his alter ego's for that matter, doesn't use our very hard work, to inflate their/other users commercial and copyrighted websites google ranking? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:37, 18 March 2009 (EDT)

Just looking at robots.txt, it doesn't look like it. Personally, I'm not adverse to allowing valued contributors to help their Google rankings by having a few links on their user page. Obviously, the first example is not a good example of a valued contributor (although HotelsCombined does seem to have contributed to articles). If we think this is a problem, I would suggest we look at policing user page content more. JYolkowski 21:28, 18 March 2009 (EDT)
Something else that just occurred to me is that, if someone doesn't contribute at all except to their userpage, there won't be any links to it unless someone inadvertently links to it on the Traveller's Pub (-: so search engines wouldn't be able to find it anyway (since they aren't allowed to read the special pages). JYolkowski 22:05, 18 March 2009 (EDT)
For reference: most pages excluded from search engines, such as all previous versions of any page, are done with tags in the page source (e.g., <meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" />) instead of robots.txt. User pages are indeed indexed (like so!) – and to my surprise, so are Talk pages, including User_talk space. In contrast, wikipedia does exclude talk. - Dguillaime 01:20, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Querying {isIn| } tags from the top down

I have noticed that at the top of each article's page, there is a expanded flow chart of links which shows which category the article falls under.

For example the article on South_Coast_(New_South_Wales) has

Oceania : Australia : New South Wales : South Coast at the top of its page.


If i understand correctly this feature is achieved by including the tag {isIn|New_South_Wales}}.


I was wondering if there was a way to query the MediaWiki API (or another method) to find out all the articles which fall under one of the categories.

For example, querying the category of Europe would give (amongst others) the pages Europe : Central Europe : Switzerland : Basel (region) : Basel and so on.


Any ideas?

Thanks. Sirtrebuchet 13:50, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

Short answer is "I'm not sure", but see Wikitravel:Breadcrumb navigation and Wikitravel:RDF if you want to try... Jpatokal 23:22, 20 March 2009 (EDT)
OK, so I have done some investigation work and I have discovered that Wikitravel:RDF is what I was looking for. However, I was wondering if there was documentation on how the interface on the Wikitravel:RDF page worked? Thanks. Sirtrebuchet 00:29, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
I can't see how the isPartOf RDF relationship we establish, is going to generate any inverse relationship. And we don't define a relationship between the region and the subregions. So, I can't see how it would be possible, using RDF or other means, to get the information without accessing every article page to find the region it is contained within. Once you have done that, accessing the RDF info for each page is fairly trivial. --Inas 01:04, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
After some deeper investigation into this, I guess plotting inverse relationships is going to be harder than I thought. What I was hoping to do was to start at a general page, say Europe, and categorise (i.e. make a list) all the articles which pertain (i.e. are linked in an upward manner) to Europe. I thought I could just see what was linked to Europe and then what was linked to that and so on, but now I realise that that would end up linking all to all pages and just give a web of links to the entire wiki. I was hoping to get just articles pertaining to that region.
So to accomplish what I am wanting to do, one would have to check each page for the link hierarchy back to the top (random example Paros -> Cyclades -> Greek Islands -> Greece -> Europe) and then make a list from that in reverse order to get Europe -> Greece -> Greek Islands -> Cyclades -> Paros and then extrapolate for all links making their way to Europe. The only problem here being that not every article has such linking information. Sirtrebuchet 01:40, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
Virtually all articles do have isIn/isPartOf templates, only the very stubbiest of stubs don't (and omitting them is no great loss). Jpatokal 01:52, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
Using the api, is there a way to check for the isIn/isPartOf tags? I had a look but there are a lot of options to choose from. Thanks. Sirtrebuchet 02:04, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
Both the isin and ispartof templates just define a RDF ispartof relationship. So, if you look in the RDF definition for an article, just pick out the ispart reln, and there you have it. So, for example, you get the RDF XML for Australia at [10] You then just parse the XML to get the ispartof reln. In this case the <dcterms:isPartOf rdf:resource="urn:x-wikitravel:en:Oceania"/> line. --Inas 08:12, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for pointing that out. One could also look at the page source and seek out the line which begins with <div id="contentSub"> which is the html of the IsIn tag and it includes the complete IsIn hierarchy right back to the top which could be parsed. For example, a parsing of this line of html from the Australia article could give Oceania, Australia. Sirtrebuchet 17:22, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Would it be possible to attach some RDF code to the Regionlist template? Not all region articles use it, but I think it should be a goal to have them do so (if they have subregions). LtPowers 08:32, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Adding the RDF relation to the regionlist template is very straightforward. Making sure a significant percentage of the destination articles would be captured within the hierarchy is more problematic. Although this is done well at a high level, I suspect we would miss many articles using this method. It may be useful for other reasons though. It could give us a nice progress indicator for developing the regional hierarchy.
On a related issue, if still is difficult to tell if an article is a destination article, as opposed to a travel topic, or itinerary from the RDF. There is no RDF reln to identify itineraries or travel topics, and there is only RDF for cities, countries, etc in newer, more specific templates. This may frustrate what Sirtrebuchet is trying to do. Are there may itineraries or travel topics that use the isin|ispartof template? --Inas 18:26, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
They should all use Template:Related; the breadcrumb navigation is supposed to be purely for the geographical hierarchy of destinations. --Peter Talk 18:42, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

April Fool's Day

Haven't seen any proposals so far for April Fool's Day, so I'd like to throw this out there as a possibility. PerryPlanet Talk 12:51, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Brilliant! Let's get to work. Jpatokal 22:55, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
Last call on this—it goes live tomorrow. So lets everyone chip something in by the end of the day! --Peter Talk 14:58, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

Airline alliances

So I recently took the time to start this off - mainly as a help to writing airport sections, since there is an increasing trend of colocation of the airlines alliances around worlds airports - and hence instead of listing each and every airline, you can now simply write something like:

  • Terminal 2 - Handles all international flights except Star Alliance flights and the other airlines listed below.
  • Terminal 3 - Handles international flights from Star Alliance member airlines as well as Estonian air, Iceland air, Skyways and some Cimber Sterling flights.

Which I suspect also would be the case for most airports around the world these days. But, i'm only familiar with StarAlliance, since that's where rack up my frequent flyer miles, and I think it's a rather important travel topic, so if someone could help getting some general information added, I'd be most appreciative. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:33, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

Admin action on South East (China)‎

Somebody is having fun there on our expense. --Rein N. 13:39, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

blocked for a day, a little too much action going on there for my taste --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:44, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
I don't have that special buttons here, so I had to ask for assistance. Thanks. --Rein N. 13:49, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

OpenID not working?

Right now when I try to log in with OpenID, it lets me choose what my wiki username will be, but after submitting that, I'm presented with an error that says I searched for ChooseName, which could not be found. This happens both if I choose the option where it makes a username for me based on my OpenID and if I choose the option to pick my own.

Cost of living benchmark?

One thing I try to research before visiting somewhere is the relative cost of living, ie how much spending money I'm going to need. Has there been any discussion previously on ways of incorporating any sort of easy benchmark of this into articles or as part of the templates? I'd love to be able to see at a glance that in Riga a diet coke is going to cost me 1.5lats and a pizza for lunch 4 lats. For instance. How to do it in a way useful to all is another question. Has this cropped up before? Andyfarrell 19:04, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

He, I'd be all in for swapping either Government or Religion out of the quick boxes in favour of the Big Mac Index, though I wouldn't know what to do with countries without McDonalds'. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 19:14, 31 March 2009 (EDT)
This is already an objective. See Wikitravel:Country_article_template#Costs. How much money you will need, a cost of common items should be included in the Buy section of country articles, including how much a Big Mac costs, if you like. --Inas 19:33, 31 March 2009 (EDT)
I'd like to see both government and religion leave the quickbox (since that information belongs in "understand"), but I do think adding an infobox to each country's "buy" section displaying its big mac index score would be useful. It should be year end data, so it will be simple to update without following every fluctuation. --Peter Talk 20:20, 31 March 2009 (EDT)
Generally, the relative costs of things are found in the Buy section, although only some countries' articles mention such info. You'd need to find an appropriate index. Cost of living indexes and "most expensive for expatriates" include things like taxes, housing, etc. To further complicate things, prices can be drastically different throughout the country. Accommodation may not be uniform...for instance, a 4-5star hotel in an African capital might be comparable to that of a major European/US city, while small hotels and hostels might be drastically cheaper. It also depends on how you travel...W. Europe generally has much higher prices than the US, but for a long-distance trip, there's the Eurail and hostels everywhere...while long distance travel in the US is very expen$ive and cheap hostels are only found in some large cities. A week in Washington (in a hostel & using the subway) can be much cheaper than a week in London...but a week travelling from NYC to LA is probably much more expensive than a week going from London to Paris to Rome. I'm not against doing a price comparison...but there's LOTS of factors which may need to be spelled out to be effective. AHeneen 23:06, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

We did have an article called "What things cost" that was deleted after a very long messy discussion. I argued for keeping it, and rewrote most of it in the process. Put it up for undeletion? Use some of its text (my rewrite was of course brilliant :-) in a new article? Pashley 01:05, 1 April 2009 (EDT)

Could we add something like per capita GDP as a cost indicator in country articles? Could we automate getting the data? There's more than one way to calculate or estimate it, though. Wikipedia has several articles, one here, with links to data sources. Pashley 01:31, 1 April 2009 (EDT)

The main reason we didn't keep that article, though, was that we decided the information belonged firmly in country articles' buy sections (if I remember correctly). Per capita GDP's effects on PPP are very ambiguous and often marginal, especially as PPP is determined by a bunch of additional causes unrelated to per capita income. The big mac index is widely regarded as the most important and accurate measure of varying price levels across nations, so, while imperfect, I think we should limit site-wide information about country PPP to this index, while allowing ourselves greater latitude to go into details in each country's buy section. (E.g., while Japan has exceptionally high food costs that will show up in the big mac index, their high-end electronics are actually quite cheap by international standards.) --Peter Talk 01:40, 1 April 2009 (EDT)
Lets just make the guideline for the Buy section a little more prominent. I'm sure its not difficult to people to include the costs of a few common items in the buy section to give an idea of what things are going to cost, they probably just don't think of it. In the Australia article you will certainly find the cost of a few different styles of meals in the Eat section, what to expect to pay for accommodation in the Sleep section. Its not much good putting the costs of transport in the Get around or Get in sections because they vary so much between locations, but you will find pretty accurate costs in many of the City articles, as well as finer grained costs of accommodation. These are surely the three biggest costs travellers will encounter. I don't really see what is missing there, or what benefit there would be in putting it in a standardised table. I don't know if per capita GDP has any consistent relation to the costs of travel. The USA has a per capita GDP higher than Japan or Australia, but I would say it is cheaper to travel in. The Big Mac index is not a good judge of buying power, it is not officially available for many countries, and it smacks a bit of American cultural imperialism when applied to countries where you have to work a day to buy one. If people want to put the cost of a Big Mac into the Buy or Eat section of a country, where it is relevant to assess the costs of travel there, they are already very free to do so, and this should be encouraged where appropriate. --Inas 01:51, 1 April 2009 (EDT)

One of the many pieces missing from this puzzle is price ranges for the Eat section (and reaching a consensus on Wikitravel talk:Restaurant listings#price ranges what exactly price given for restaurant should reflect: only main dish / average set of meals for this establishment [type] / three-course full meal or something else]]). Anything constructive will be highly appreciated on this. --DenisYurkin 16:43, 1 April 2009 (EDT)

Glad I asked. That's given me some idea of the opinions on this! Thanks particularly to Sertmann for drawing my attention to the Big Mac Index, I like it, but think it's too narrow a measure - it doesn't tell me how much spending money I need to take. It doesn't appear that there is a quick and easy solution to go in an infobox so I guess I will just spend a little time adding to the Costs sections on places I know. Andyfarrell 18:52, 4 April 2009 (EDT)

Airport guidance

Following a series of edits by User:DavidG, who edited several Get in by plane sections to list all the cities that can be accessed non-stop from that airport, I think we need some guidance on how to handle such cases. I'm suspicious of its usefulness, but someone else did the same thing to Albuquerque a while back and I decided to let it stay, so I'm really on the fence about this. PerryPlanet Talk 11:58, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

My rule of thumb is that it's useful for those airports where the destinations can be counted on the palm of one hand, but beyond that it's kinda pointless. Just name the busiest routes/airlines and let the user work out the rest. Jpatokal 12:29, 2 April 2009 (EDT)
One big problem with what DavidG is doing is that he's not using disambiguated links. He's linking to New York and Buffalo instead of New York (city) and Buffalo (New York) (just for two examples). LtPowers 21:50, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Region Articles: Guide Status

It seems like in practice, the "linked destinations" which have a status requirement per WT's Region Guide-Article Status are really only those 5-9 destinations which are outlined in the Regions, Cities, and Other Destinations sections, and not any destination which is linked in the article. If this is in fact the policy, I think we should make this more explicit in the status criteria. Calling them "linked destinations" suggest a status requirement for any internal link in an article. Jtesla16 13:24, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

That's how I always interpreted it, but if it's unclear we should certainly clarify it. LtPowers

Wikitravel on the iPhone

I have not been around here in quite a while, but just ran into a nice iPhone app that I thought you all might want to know about. Gohophop [11]] has released offline versions of some wikitravel content as iPhone apps. For once the content is correctly redistributed under CC licence and attribution is given on each page in the application.

It was quite a surprise to see my photos on the app preview in the iStore.

--Nick 19:21, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

That's cool. Hope to see you around more often! LtPowers 09:40, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Voice of America's Website of the Week

WT is the website of the week at Voice of America: http://www.voanews.com/english/Science/2009-04-03-voa17.cfm Worth putting this in the banner to replace the Time magazine plug? Jpatokal 03:27, 4 April 2009 (EDT)

I plunged forward and made the change. LtPowers 11:30, 4 April 2009 (EDT)

Program that Scrapes content from Wikitravel and formats it for iPods

Hello Everyone. I started working on a project a while back that takes content from wikitravel and formats it for the iPod - it uses the iPod notes format, and works on any non-touchscreen iPod.

I got a rough, working program going using Ruby, but as I'm not a real programmer I don't think I can develop it any further. So I'm GPL'ing the source code, and putting it on Sourceforge.

I'm looking for a person to help me do one of two things:

  • Be the lead code developer (not too difficult, very small code base)
  • Or, help me get the project on sourceforge in a format that real programmers will be able to take from there.

You can read about it on the Trac Wiki I've setup at sourceforge, http://apps.sourceforge.net/trac/lonelyipod/

If anyone has any suggestions about other places I should post this info, kindly add them below this. bcnstony 14:51, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Link to TravelBlog?

I discovered TravelBlog a few weeks ago and I think it's a great resource for those less-visited countries. We have links to Wikipedia, Open Directory, & World66, what are your thoughts about adding TravelBlog? It might not be very helpful to view the thousands of blogs in the US, but I have found it very interesting to view travelers' experiences in off-the-beaten path countries like Mauritania, Sudan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Yemen, and many, many more. AHeneen 17:39, 9 April 2009 (EDT)

Annotating Maps

I have uploaded a map
Grisons districts blank.png
from Wikipedia, with correct licensing, of the regions of Graubunden, yet it has no labels and needs some, what is the procedure for doing so. --HJ.Phillips94 08:22, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
The most useful way to do so would be to use Inkscape to create an SVG map that anyone can easily revise. But ultimately I would recommend whatever program works for you—if MS Paint gets the point across, go for it. --Peter Talk 16:50, 10 April 2009 (EDT)

Creating maps

I have read the guidelines on creating maps and my understanding is that real Wikitravel maps can only be created from a computer using Linux. Is that correct? And if yes, is there a way to create temporary maps on other computers which can subsequently be upgrated to Wikitravel maps by people with Linux access? --ClausHansen 10:23, 10 April 2009 (EDT)

You don't need Linux access to create a WT style map, but without it, you will need to do a lot of work in Inksckape. The guide to using Inkscape for WT style maps is here. You can partially automate the process per Wikitravel:How_to_create_a_map#SVG_imports_for_users_without_Linux_access. If you are running into any hitches, please feel free to ask me any questions on my talk page. --Peter Talk 16:50, 10 April 2009 (EDT)

Easier options

I've been thinking about the TP. It's not very accessible to people not used to the world of Wiki's, or computers at all. Wouldn't a more streamlined, "message board-ish" look be better? A lot of people I've been talking to who are of the globetrotting type think that Wikitravel is a great thing (often compared to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) but with a user friendliness that's next to nothing. Making the Traveller's Pup - the place where most people look first - more accessible could generate a higher accessibility to the rest of the site. Just my $0.02. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.235.146.157 (talkcontribs)

Hmmm, fresh idea's is always appreciated, but since we're a wiki, to me at least, it seems pretty natural that our communal area should be wikified too. I don't think we should be trying to make a Thorn Tree here - it's too massive to compete with, and being active over there myself, I'd hate it if we tried - it's really great at what it does. But could you maybe try to specify your idea a bit? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:29, 11 April 2009 (EDT)
By "more accessible" do you mean easier to use, or easier to find? I'd agree with Sertmann that I'd prefer to see it stay a Wiki page, by if you mean it's difficult to find (which I think is a fair argument) I think something could/should be done about that. PerryPlanet Talk 20:43, 11 April 2009 (EDT)
We should keep in mind that the Pub is primarily for contributors, not users of the site. Perhaps we need a more visible place where users can ask questions in a less-complex way. LtPowers 12:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Using API

Hello!

I'm interested in knowledge, how to use API? I found API manual: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/api.php, but every example link on it does not seem to work. Do I have to log in to get just the contents of one page of a certain country? Or does anyone have an example, how to use API? Thanks in advance! Agsel 21:02, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Wikimedia & Creative Commons

Wikipedia is currently holding a referendum on dual licensing content, including wikipedia, to CC-by-sa 3.0. For those of you who are also Wikipedians, I'd encourage you to head over and vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:SecurePoll/vote/1). This also raises some questions I believe. We could start taking a crack at this now, or wait till we have the outcome, where we most certainly will need to discuss this. I've also been looking a bit at Travellers point who also license their content CC-by-sa 3.0.

  1. If this goes through, can users copy 3.0 licensed content to WT, since we use 1.0?
  2. Do we want WP content? (I can think if many cases where we do want it, but also see the pitfalls)
  3. What about attribution? If we are to welcome WP content, how do we deal with this?

Comments appreciated :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 00:56, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

  1. No. IB's legal team has ok'd a move to a cc-by-sa any license for all text on site, but the move never happened due to community opposition. I'd be happy if we revisited that to allow newer interested users to comment. See shared:Tech:License upgrade.
  2. Sometimes. Dealing with WP dumps would be a headache, but we'd also gain a lot in being able to mishmash together ready-made history sections from their site. We'd probably have to create a new policy page to figure out how to deal with dumped text, since for the most part we still will want original, travel-oriented writing.
  3. We follow WP's lead, since they will need to deal with that as well. My guess is that they'll play looser with the attribution requirement than we would (by, for example, declaring the page history to provide due attribution). In that case, we could do something like use a template at the bottom of the page, linking to the history of the appropriate WP article(s).
This is all purely moot, however, until/if we move to an updated CC license. Our current license has terrible incompatibility issues, which owe their origins to the fact that the CC 1.0 was basically CC's first draft, and which have been corrected in all later versions. As of now, our text license pretty much restricts us from cooperating with any other sites that use the CC-by-SA license. --Peter Talk 01:19, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, I saw that today too. With regards to #2, I think sections like history and climate would do well copied from WP (but only sections if it's too long). It might also help for lots of travel topics and phrasebooks (namely the usage/history & phonetics sections). For #3, is it possible to mess with the wiki software for this site to include a checkbox (like "this is a minor edit" & "Watch this page") labeled "Copied from Wikipedia" which would require the editor to insert the name/address of the WP article used and automatically place a link to the history of that WP page after the edit's listing on the WT article. The license at the bottom of the WT article could then include "Parts of this page may be the original work of contirbuters to the Wikipedia articles: [en.wikipedia.org/wikitravel Wikitravel], etc."? It sounds complicated, but it's the best method I can think of right now to solve the problem of attribution. AHeneen 01:24, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
The community opposition to the upgrade was quite minimal (only 2 users, though they repeated their arguments several times)... I don't think we were toooo far off from building a consensus to upgrade... it would just be nice to have a bit more legal input from someone in the know – cacahuate talk 14:33, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
I would certainly be one of the two who opposes an upgrade. No upgrade should or could be undertaken in just a matter of weeks or a few months. It would have to be a process that would be drawn out over at least a year to cover our asses in the legal issues. World 66, which I see has been taken offline, upgraded from the GNUFDL to CC by-SA 1.0 several years ago. In the process, they supposedly allowed any user who had ever contributed to World66, or whatever its predecessor's name was to opt-out and have all their previous content removed and all other content contributed by others was re-licensed. But, as the CC ShareAlike license ensures derivative work is also open source that means that derivative content produced with the content of the contributor who opts-out could be a possible source of legal messiness.
If this can or worms is going to be re-opened, I would want Internet Brands to conference call admins and other community members to allow a Q and A, because we will be fielding questions about a change over. Not to mention, I'd want to hear that I am protected from any legal issues and that IB would be the ones held responsible if some fiasco did arise.
That aside, I really don't see much benefit from a license "upgrade." First of all, the only real content that we are missing out on as a result of the CC-by-SA 1.0 license are a few maps, some photos, and historical information from WP and the like. That's not so bad, because a contributor could send an email to someone and simply ask a photographer to dual license a photo under CC-by-SA 1.0 and whatever other license the photographer wanted to use. Secondly, our content is still open source even with the CC-by-SA 1.0 license. Maybe it's not as "open" as I would like it to be or others would like it to be, but a whole other issues can be opened up if the community says: Hey, let's change the license from CC-by-SA 1.0, to include all CC-by-SA licenses like I did for Wikimmigrant. The problem that I have with Wikimmigrant is that the content on Wikimmigrant could be used by Wikitravel and anyone else who uses a CC-by-SA license (including 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0), but with a multi-licensed site, Wikimmigrant cannot take content from other sources even if the other content is licensed as CC-by-SA 3.0, because the other content has to be licensed under CC-by-SA 1.0, 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 (possibly even later versions). All in all, I just think that an upgrade is not worth the hassle. We missed out on the 2.0 license years ago and that did not cause Wikitravel to fail. Be honest, but an upgrade is not so essential to Wikitravel. If it were, we wouldn't have amassed a collection of 20K+ articles, or been awarded a Webby, or named as one of Time's 50 Best Websites. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 23:50, 18 April 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for the legal advice, but you appear to be very confused on a number of these issues. Rather obvious among which is our ability to use images and other files with a different CC-by-SA license—we already do this. In any rate, you are commenting in the wrong place, if you wish to continue this discussion, please do so in the original thread. --Peter Talk 14:57, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
I think Sapphire is right on reusing content on Wikimmigrant, but that's because Wikimmigrant is multilicensed. A site that was singly-licensed CC-by-sa-3.0 wouldn't have that problem (because any CC license after 1.0 can be freely upgraded to a later version; not so going backwards). (Also, note Sapphire said "content"; images are a special case for a couple of reasons that I won't go into here.) LtPowers 15:58, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

→ Please continue discussion at shared:Tech:License upgrade

Site Down tonight, 4/15

We will be down for scheduled maintenance Wednesday April 15th @ 10pm PST for approximately 4 hours. We thank you for your patience. JuCo 20:08, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Electrical plugs

Why don't we make little plug icons for the electrical outlets so everybody knows what kind of plug they need to bring when they look at a glance at the entire article? I don't think this move is at all unreasonable. --Destron Commander 23:04, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

Currently, each country has an Info Box which lists its electrical system, and a link to the fairly extensive Electrical systems page. Are you proposing that icons should be added next to these specifications in the Info Boxes for each country, or in a more general sense for all destinations? --Jtesla16 23:30, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
Yes, any destination we have provided info on electricity. I just think it's a good idea to give a little icon to give a heads up for prospective travellers. While there is a link to electrical systems article, some people might take too much time or not even able to figure out which plug to bring at all. --Destron Commander 22:58, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

Star noms

I've nominated two D.C. districts for star status, in part just to end our drought of successful nominations, but also with the end goal of getting the whole city up to star status. I mention this here per Wikitravel:Star_nominations#Nominate. Comments always appreciated! --Peter Talk 16:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

And I've now nominated another, this time a new Chicago district. --Peter Talk 03:25, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
And now another D.C. district—comments, even casual ones, are always very welcome. --Peter Talk 19:18, 28 April 2009 (EDT)

GPS coordinates

As someone who always travels with a GPS unit, I would find it extremely useful if all important points (sights, pubs, train stations...) would have a GPS coordinates listed. Even in a city, it is often much easier to find something by its coordinates than by street. Would it be possible to start adding the coordinates? There should be some standard formatting and standard coordinate system to use... Kyknos 14:28, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

Many of our listings do include latitude and longitude, but they aren't displayed in the article. Do you have any suggestions on the most useful way to display them? LtPowers 14:43, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Re: how to add coordinates, in any listing, you can add lat & long (* <see name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="" hours="" price="" lat="" long=""></see>), and we also have a standard geo template: {{geo|lat|long}} (where you would replace the "lat" and "long" with actual numbers). --Peter Talk 14:48, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
I'd also suggest adding points of interest directly to OpenStreetMap, from where they can be reasonably easily reimported into Wikitravel maps. Jpatokal 03:48, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

Admin nomination

I've nominated User:Dguillaime to be an administrator — please comment on the nominations page. Gorilla Jones 01:20, 29 April 2009 (EDT)

Automated correction of impropper IsIn tags

I have been doing some searching and some corrections on IsIn tags on articles trying to get all the articles to have proper breadcrumb navigation. One of the most common mistakes I find is an incorrectly written tag. The most common mistake is having the tag written as "isIn", missing the capital "I" on is. First, is there reason for this? Second is there a way to have a bot or another automatic way to seek these out and fix them? It is quite tiring to do one at a time. Thanks Sirtrebuchet 01:56, 30 April 2009 (EDT)