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(A question.... It's about maps...)
(A question.... It's about maps...: attempt to clarify)
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:::::I should NOT have to install programs to make maps.  I don't get why I can't use Photoshop Elements.  To me it's absurd.  But, then again, I may be missing something.  Please, do explain.  And am I right, I need to make a PNG and SVG format and upload the two?  And, also, can you make SVG format in PS Elements?  THANKS!  [[User:Edmontonenthusiast|Edmontonenthusiast]] 13:54, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
:::::I should NOT have to install programs to make maps.  I don't get why I can't use Photoshop Elements.  To me it's absurd.  But, then again, I may be missing something.  Please, do explain.  And am I right, I need to make a PNG and SVG format and upload the two?  And, also, can you make SVG format in PS Elements?  THANKS!  [[User:Edmontonenthusiast|Edmontonenthusiast]] 13:54, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
::::::Also, where do you get, LNKSCAPE?  [[User:Edmontonenthusiast|Edmontonenthusiast]] 13:55, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
::::::Also, where do you get, LNKSCAPE?  [[User:Edmontonenthusiast|Edmontonenthusiast]] 13:55, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
::::::: You can create maps in any format you wish, including png's, but the community here on Wikitravel, prefer to have them in svg format - as the work almost ends up in higher quality, and other users can pick up on your work and improve it if they wish (which is the whole point of a wiki). Inkscape is available for free here[] and illustrator (expensive) here[] - [[User:Sertmann|Sertmann]] 16:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
::::::: You can create maps in any format you wish, including png's, but the community here on Wikitravel, prefer to have them in svg format - as the work almost ends up in higher quality, and other users can pick up on your work and improve it if they wish (which is the whole point of a wiki), you can't do that with a file created in Adobe Elements. Inkscape is available for free here[] and illustrator (expensive) here[] - [[User:Sertmann|Sertmann]] 16:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
==Protected Status? ==
==Protected Status? ==

Revision as of 20:13, 23 October 2008

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Technical requests page on Wikitravel Shared instead.



Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

If a conversation does not fit into any specific talk page, it should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here 3 months after the last comment in that discussion.

Stuff that's been moved to specific talk pages:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Should we sweep this out? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 03:20, 16 August 2006 (EDT)
Ugh, this place is getting messy and this is the one page I hate to attempt to organize. Anyone want to take a stab at cleaning it up? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 18:29, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
How do you sweep the pub? What are the rules? Anything older than a certain date? There is stuff on here that is many, many months old. Where would be a "place more appropriate" to move the discussions to? Kire1975 01:54, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
Also, I am using the Safari browser, from Apple, on my Windows Vista computer. For some reason the scroll bar on the right side of my edit screen isn't working properly, so the only way to get way down to the bottom of the screen is to grab some text and pull my cursor down to the bottom of the page. It gets really awkward. Cleaning up the pub could help me out with this problem. thanks, Kire1975 02:14, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

One more thing, when I click 'save" on the edit page, it takes a while to processs. Kire1975 04:31, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

How to sweep pub?

That's a good question! Our archiving explanation at the top of this page has become very convoluted—I'm honestly not sure how to sweep the pub anymore. Can anyone explain the revised process? --Peter Talk 00:18, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I nominate receveli's "request for help" below to be swept out of the pub. the problem is solved. how is it done? the shared wikitravel pages has a pub cellar. Should we create something like that? Kire1975 22:19, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

I have got the broom out today and swept out some of the older stuff. Mostly into the archive pages but, where relevant, into Talk Pages for the destination under discussion. Where I've done the latter I have marked the discussion as "Swept in from the travellers pub" Tarr3n 07:44, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

Attribution and article translations

DavidSaldanaSage just brought up a good point: according to our copyleft, shouldn't we have to credit original contributors when translating articles between language versions? What is our policy for dealing with this? Do we just indicate somewhere on the article or the talk page that it is a translation and the original version is at X? --Peter Talk 10:23, 29 August 2007 (EDT)

Yes, my solution on de: has been to use de:Vorlage:Attributieren. The only potential problems is someone can remove an author's name or delete the template. -- 10:35, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Ah, cool. How does that template work exactly? Do you need to enter the original authors one by one each time you use it? Or does it automatically import them? And if so, is it set up to import only from :en? --Peter Talk 10:45, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Well, there is another way: We could establish a policy that when preparing to translate an article that the article be exported and the imported as a first step. -- Mark 10:42, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Yes, that probably would be a good way of doing things for complete translations, but I think a lot of partial translation also gets done, that is, added material translated from another language version to an existing article. --Peter Talk 10:48, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
I used to do that until I was told it was bad and could harm the website/server. Plus, you can't import pages with more than a certain number of "versions" (history). If you export the "last version" it doesn't attribute all of the authors, just the last person to have edited the page. IB, I would appreciate it if you could stabilize the server to allow me to import articles. Also, fix the issues with the attribution of the export/import feature. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 10:57, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
I guess you're replying to Andrew? I'm not sure how the template works, but it occurs to me that the exporter idea will have problems because of the fact that usernames are not necessarily the same across language versions. -- Mark 10:53, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Unfortunately, each author has to be entered individually. Ie. {{Attribution|[[:ru:User:X|Real name]], and |[[:de:Benutzer:Sapphire|Sapphire]].}} Currently, I have 30 value fields that will allow you to enter 30 names. If you need to attribute more than 30 people you can also use the 30th field to write something like this {{Attribution|.....|[[:en:User:X|real name]], [[:en:User:Q|real name]], [[:en:User:T|real name]], and anonymous users of Wikitravel.}}. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 10:57, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Whew, that could take a lot of time in some cases. Could perhaps a simpler, quicker template do the job by saying "This article is based on a translation of article X", with a link to that article, where the original authors are cited? Or would that not be enough to satisfy the terms of CC-by-SA 1.0? Such a template could link to the version in the history from which it was translated.
Perhaps this sort of quick template could suffice in the meantime, but I feel a feature request for IB brewing here. --Peter Talk 11:24, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
I might have a solution, but I'm not sure if it'd be legally kosher. Check User:Sapphire/Template:AttributionAlt in a few minutes. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 11:30, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Done. The new template says 'We took content from this article, which is based on work by this list of authors.' I'm not sure if pointing to a list of authors is sufficient enough, or not. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 11:42, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Nice job! That looks like good enough for the time being. I'll make translations of that into Russian and Spanish. But for a more permanent solution, perhaps we should ask IB on shared for a way to automatically get the names from the original language version into the translated page credit box. --Peter Talk 11:44, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Sweet. I'd love to see more translating between language versions - I've always meant to raid the Japanese Wikitravel for eat/drink/buy entries for Japan articles. Gorilla Jones
Forgive my legal retardation, but if it's in another language, are we positive that it has to be attributed at all? If I can take a paragraph from a copyrighted website, paraphrase it and jumble it up a little and then use it here without attribution, what's the difference if it's being translated into another language entirely? – cacahuate talk 03:28, 1 September 2007 (EDT)
Yep. The Creative Commons website actually lists translations as one of their two examples of derivative works requiring attribution. The big difference is that the structure and idea behind the structure of the work is the same. For example, Wikitravel:Копилефт is certainly not a word-for-word translation of Wikitravel:Copyleft, but the structure of the article clearly comes from the original (there are also some sections pretty close to the original text). And jumbling up a paraphrasing of an incompatible source actually is copyright infringement. You need to totally rewrite, using your own words and organization, but using the source as just a reminder of the facts. --Peter Talk 03:44, 1 September 2007 (EDT)
Where on the page have you been putting the attribution template? At the very bottom? On the talk page? Somewhere else? Gorilla Jones 10:00, 1 September 2007 (EDT)
I put it at the bottom of the page so it can be next to the attribution in the footer. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 11:16, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

Is there a template now at en: that can be used for manually listing other authors, from outside Wikitravel? Is creating a Template:Attribution a best way to go with this? Background for my question comes from shared:Talk:Copyleft#asking permission to use forum reply at Wikitravel where we created a template and guidelines for using content from external forums, by explicit permission of original author. --DenisYurkin 13:14, 10 February 2008 (EST)

I don't believe there is such a template, but it sounds like a good idea to me to create one—I can't think of any better way to provide attribution. --Peter Talk 02:02, 11 February 2008 (EST)
I've created a draft template: Template:Attribution, you can see it in action in Rome, Rome/Campo de' Fiori. Any comments/criticism is appreciated. --DenisYurkin 15:08, 11 February 2008 (EST)
Oops, I don´t understand so many technical terms. I am spanish and I would like to translate part of an article about Santa Fe. Would I be "breaking the law"?
Mira por favor la plantilla en español. Si no entienda, yo la añadire. In other words, don't worry about it ;) --Peter Talk 18:06, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

Similar to the above, how do we attribute authors of a merged article? LtPowers 18:28, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

We don't, and probably should. Another template would do the trick for future merges at least, if that's how we want to continue tackling this problem. --Peter Talk 18:30, 26 August 2008 (EDT)
Thank you Peter! I was concerned about author attribution. Although the original message is that any submitted work can be re-used or modified, it seems that not everybody agrees on that. I think that the Santa Fe article is a great one. I am not interested in translating the whole article or either writing my name. I would like to use part of the information to encourage people to visit USA (not only NY)and help those that don´t understand english.--Lucía
Well, the license does require attribution for all modification & re-use--that's the problem. But I'd be thrilled if you translate the Santa Fe article to Spanish regardless. It is a great article, and a great destination for Spanish speakers (since more people there speak Spanish than English!). --Peter Talk 13:19, 27 August 2008 (EDT)
I created Template:Mergecredit for articles with merged content, based on Template:Attribution. LtPowers 20:13, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel Expedition: Combining Languages

Well, I am thinking about creating the Czech version of Wikitravel. I do not have anyone to join me at this time, so it is just a theory now. However, I am not really sure whether the Czech version of Wikitravel makes any sense. Only about 10 million people speak the language and knowledge of English is pretty common in the Czech republic. I think that knowledge of English is even more common among Czech travelers, just because traveling without any language knowledge is PITA. So one possible answer is "no, Czech Wikitravel doesn't make any sense".

But still, it may be useful for Czech people traveling just within borders of Czech republic. Or some travelers may have only limited knowledge of English and may be willing to contribute only in Czech (and such contributions may be translated later by someone else). So another possible answer is "yes, Czech Wikitravel makes sense".

Anyway, my question: is it possible to create a Wikitravel version which combines two languages? Czech and Slovak are pretty similar and mutually understandable. They were spoken in a single country for many decades. Would it make sense to combine them in one expedition and create a Czechoslovak Wikitravel? Combining them would enlarge the userbase. --Kyknos 09:21, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

I think two separate projects would make sense. I'd encourage you to go ahead and make the proposal get 10 - 15 of your friends to sign up an help out (you can also elicit help from Czech Wikipedians) and make the proposal. If you do it, I'll advocate for the launch of the site and help out wherever I can. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 10:00, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
My guess is that, if they are mutually understandable, we only need one. However, language is often a political issue, something people feel strongly about. I'm not sure if we need two just to avoid insulting anyone. Pashley 01:19, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
IHMO, it's better for first time to organise only one version on that language, which is more widespreaded. (Wikipedia state that there are about 6 million Slovak-spocken and 12 million Czech-spocken people.) The Wikitravel rules and guidlines may be translated to both language to enjoy a minority-language people. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 07:00, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Unused images

Holy schmoly, I just discovered Special:Unusedimages, all kinds of madness, copyvios etc... even a McDonald's logo... VFD'ing these would be monstrously tedious. Would anyone object to at least a first round of hacking by admins to clear out obvious things that aren't within our scope or feature portraits of people that aren't linked to from user pages? The copyvios are obvious speedy-deletion candidates anyway – cacahuate talk 23:10, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Sounds like a good idea to just speedy the obvious ones first without going through vfd. Maybe we should also create a Wikitravel namespace page that link those we want to keep around(svg, wikitravel logo compitition submissions etc) , that will clean up Special:Unusedimages and make it a useful tool for us to find deletion candidates in the future --Nick 01:27, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
Both ideas here sound like a good idea to me. --Peter Talk 01:29, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
Me too. Pashley 03:37, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
Me, too :) -OldPine 07:05, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
I have create Wikitravel:Links to images that should not be deleted and started adding some of the old logos there. --Nick 06:34, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
I'm going to hold of on doing futher deletions for a short while, there seems to be a technical issue. The images do delete, but the image pages does not and I receive a Warning: chmod() [function.chmod]: Not owner in /var/www/wikitravel/mw-1.11.2/includes/filerepo/FSRepo.php on line 425 error when deleting. --Nick 06:48, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
Weird. Hey thanks for jumping on this, I forgot all about my proposal  :) I just deleted an image and also saw the same error, strange... the image page does stick around, but only in the cache, if you purge it then the page is gone – cacahuate talk 09:59, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

Widely spaced attractions

So, I'm working on the Finger Lakes article. I added a bunch of cities to the article as I was building the map you see there now, because this is the lowest-level region in the hierarchy. (In New York right now, counties are linked but most don't have articles.) The problem with this is that outside of Rochester (especially) and some of the larger lake communities, most of the villages have just a few attractions here and there. There are also some attractions that would be of interest to Finger Lakes travelers but aren't located in a municipality that could support a standalone article. (Example: Finger Lakes Gaming and Race Track in Farmington -- it's really the only thing in Farmington, but it's an important location and arguably too far from Victor or Canandaigua to include in their articles.)

So how much of what the Region article template says ("Region articles tend to be more "soft", discussing the people, culture, climate, and cuisine in the region, rather than the legalistic stuff that's in a country article, or the addresses-and-phone-numbers stuff that's in a city article.") is universally applicable? Is it okay to have attractions in the region article alone, or must all attractions ("addresses-and-phone-numbers stuff") be in a city article of some sort? If the latter, at what level can we combine two cities (say, Waterloo (New York) and Seneca Falls (New York), which are about three miles apart, smaller than the size of the markers on the map)?

Thanks for any input.

-- LtPowers 15:57, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Hey there, welcome! Basically, an attraction or any sort of listing should go as low in the hierarchy as possible... if you have a lodge in a remote part of a county that's not in or just outside of a city, then you could list it in the region article instead. Or, if it's just outside of a city, list it in the "Get out" section of that city, which is meant for nearby towns and attractions (or likely next destinations).
So in any given section on a region/county article, you'll possibly have a mix of two things: A description of highlights of the region, possibly including one-liners pointing to a specific attraction in a city... and then you'll have attractions, lodges, etc that are remote and can't be pushed further down the hierarchy.
Regarding cities, our general rule is that if you can sleep there, it's ok to have an article on it. If Waterloo and Seneca Falls are two distinct cities, even that close, then we should have 2 articles... Islamabad and Rawalpindi are in a similar situation, but both deserve articles. Hope that helps! – cacahuate talk 20:56, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
OK, so generally, it's okay to have an article on a particular municipality even if there aren't many attractions to list?
The other question that comes to mind is dealing with suburbs. In the case of Rochester, it's almost absurd to limit oneself to attractions within the official city limit, because the city limit is pretty meaningless to a traveler. Is it suitable to include suburban attractions within a city article, and if so, how far out? LtPowers 22:38, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
If the attractions are in places that are not destinations themselves (no or minimal places to sleep), then it's OK to put them in the city article itself, even if they are technically outside city limits. The traveller comes first. Jpatokal 01:55, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
No, that isn't the case. There are plenty of places to sleep outside the city limits; in fact many of them will be the first choices for people visiting the city, precisely because the city limits are relatively meaningless to the average traveler. Even the airport is outside the city limits. What I'm saying is that in the city article, it seems silly to leave out (say) information on the area shopping malls simply because they're a couple of miles beyond the city border; the same goes for countless other restaurants and tourist attractions. LtPowers 09:38, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
In that case I would do the same as I would do in a region article... list the attraction in the actual article where it should be, provided that the nearby city/suburb has its own article, and then put some sort of pointer on the metropolis page. See Los Angeles#Parks, where I just did that with Six Flags Magic Mountain – cacahuate talk 14:20, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
If the city limits are meaningless to the average traveller, then they should be ignored in the travel guide as well. So if Motel 7 is just across the county line, and the said county has too little of interest to warrant its own article, then just slap it into Rochester. Jpatokal 00:57, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
Like how the Buffalo Bills are listed in the Buffalo (New York) article even though they play in Orchard Park? Thanks for the advice both of you. LtPowers 09:11, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

Where to put the names of cities on maps?

So when I started working on maps, one that I used kind of as a model was shared:Image:Map-USA-Mid Atlantic01.png. It numbers the eight destination cities listed on the Mid-Atlantic article with pretty little two-tone dots, with the names segregated off to the side in a legend. I followed a similar model with my modification to Peter's shared:Image:New York regions map.png and with shared:Image:New York - Finger Lakes region map with road shields.png. Cacahuate expressed some surprise at that, however, which got me thinking. My impression at the time was that placing the city names in the legend facilitated translation, but now I'm not sure where I read that.

So the question, then, is: how do we label cities on region maps? The existing documentation for maps is largely city-focused, so region maps, where they exist, seem somewhat haphazard.

-- LtPowers 10:31, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

Holy schmoly, did I do that? Not sure why I put those cities in a legend, might be that there were other US region articles in existence that was already formatted that way. I would definitely recommend that we do not do it that way anymore. It looks a lot neater with the city names on the map itself and if a legend is to be used, it can be used for specific attractions. These are far better looking examples: shared:Image:Map-Sweden01.png, shared:Image:Map-South_Africa-Gauteng02.png and shared:Image:Map-South_Africa-Ukhahlamba_Drakensberg01.png. Also there is no longer any need to list the region is the legend as was done in shared:Image:Map-India-North_Goa01.png --Nick 14:12, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
I agree, Image:Map-South Africa-Gauteng02.png is a great model for a region map. I do like having a region label somewhere though, but not a big deal – cacahuate talk 18:25, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
So it was written, so it shall be. I will go forth and err no more. =) LtPowers 18:56, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
Reason I stated that we don't need the region label is because Template:Regionlist can provide one in the article text, see Gauteng --Nick 01:45, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
Cool... I'm ok either way, I was just thinking that if someone prints a map on it's own, it would be nice to have some sort of header, but I don't think it's that big a deal :) – cacahuate talk 20:10, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

How's this? LtPowers 09:39, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

That looks good --Nick 09:44, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

Major Airports

I've been working on the Heathrow Airport article over the last few days, and have been thinking about what sort of information it needs to include. There don't appear to be any suitable templates for major airports (and templates for cities don't seem to suit) and the articles for other major airports are all a little different and sketchy. I've added some obvious stuff like getting in and out and around the airport and information on the changes and general confusion/organised chaos that are currently taking place at Heathrow. What else should really be included in a major airport article? When you travel through, arrive at or stay in an unfamiliar large airport what do you want/need to know?

Although specifics will of course vary, you might look at the O'Hare International Airport or Kansai International Airport articles for comparison. Gorilla Jones 08:06, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
1. In my experience, timing between terminals would be useful in 2 editions:
a) total time from leaving aircraft board at terminal X (min and max--depending on landing gate) to boarding aircraft at terminal Y--to find out whether in case of delayed connection it makes sense to run fast to a connecting flight, or just to wait for a next flight
b) time from Terminal X itself (if there's shopping/eating area) to Terminal Y itself (how early should I finish my dutyfree shopping to get in time to boarding)
2. estimation of prices for a full meal in restaurants.
--DenisYurkin 13:49, 14 July 2008 (EDT)


Wikitravel has been named one of Time Magazine's 50 Best Websites for 2008! Thank you and congratulations to the Wikitravel community for all your amazing work.JuCo 14:09, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

YAY! Edmontonenthusiast 20:09, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

Highlights for a location / Decide where to go

I've been using Wikitravel now for quite some time to get info on the places i travel to, and every now and then i post some recommendations in terms of things to do, see, eat or sleep.

But now i'm trying to get some ideas for say a short week of vacation this summer. This is however rather tedious to do; this place has a lot of info about a lot of places, with good recommendations left and right. If i just open the pages of some countries that spark my interest for this short trip i'm up to my neck in stuff to read, let alone decide upon.

So what if i just want to get ideas what's cool to see and do in say a country or city? Maybe it's an idea to have a 'highlights' paragraph to turn to for just some info?

How do you guys decide on your next destination? Peymora 15:21, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, a fully developed article will tell you the highlights in the See/Do sections, and in the introductory paragraph or "Understand" section; I'm not sure we need another section for highlights, we just need to improve more of our articles to do what they're already designed to do :)
As far as deciding where to go, first think about what your interests are, or what you're in the mood for at this moment. There's endless things to do and see, and if you're like me then you want to do them all. So stop paying attention to the whole, and follow something fun and random that sparks your interest. Do you feel like scuba diving for a week (or learning how to)? Want to sit on a beach, or hike in the mountains? Where are you coming from? Ever been to a Muslim country? How about Cairo, explore the city and the pyramids? – cacahuate talk 00:12, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

I agree with the fact that it should be in Do & See, however: a country page doesn't have these paragraphs! My Lonely Planet Croatia (i'm on an internship now here) start with some highlights troughout the country. No details, just: mountain here, old monestary there, beautiful city there. And with page-numbers so i can look them up.

If you could have a summary listing like that of the not-to-be-missed spots on a country-page with links to the appropriate cities etc that would really be helpful in finding cool places to go to. So, a --highlight-- paragraph? Peymora 04:08, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Calendar of events and festivals can also be a good starting point, though it does not get the attention it deserves and should contain a lot more detail than it does --Nick 04:49, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
You're right, my mistake! Make that "cities" and "other destinations"... where we list up to 9 cities and 9 other destinations that are the highlights of that country... (and we link straight to those destinations, rather than using pesky page #'s :)). I know you may not see what you're looking for exactly on a lot of the country articles, but it's more because they aren't fully developed yet, rather than a problem with the article formats. California does a decent job so far of giving you highlights via the opening paragraph, and the cities and other destinations sections. I'd vote against a "highlights" section because you'd be duplicating info that should already be located in those 3 areas – cacahuate talk 19:30, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Ah, then i get it, so it should be in 'cities' and 'other destinations'. Okay, maybe we should make that more explicit in the template for country articles? Right now the examples and description for cities are clear, but it says for 'other destinations' that it should only be the independent articles. Maybe include that direct links to interesting things to see/do in that country (wherever they are listed, city/region) are also requested (up to 9). Peymora 05:02, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

In highlighting some Greece destinations I changed the heading of Other Destinations to Major Destinations, as a way of answering exactly this question of what most people will want to see. In retrospect I realize that maybe it's against policy to change the heading, but no one has complained yet. I think Major Destinations is a much more informative heading, and I'd like to see it allowed or even have the template changed to it. After all, "other destinations" could be anything. More generally, I agree with the desire to mark major sights more clearly, even if there won't always be total agreement on what they are. Most travel guides do this, and most readers find it very useful. For instance, the first time traveler to Japan, confronted with the bewildering array of attractions in that country, will be very glad to have a list of top things to visit including maybe the three or four major temples in Kyoto and in Nara, the Hiroshima Peace Museum, Himeji Castle, performances at the Kabuki-za in Tokyo, the Great Buddha in Kamakura, Takayama and the Japanese Alps, and Nikko. The point isn't whether this is a perfect list of the best; it's that it's much better to have such a list, whatever its defects, than to not have any list and so miss some of these things because you didn't realize how important they were. Sailsetter 12:04, 14 July 2008 (EDT)

IsIn failure

I see that Aichi has an {{isIn|Chubu}} template on the page, as it should, but the breadcrumb navigation doesn't appear at the top of the page. I tried purging the cache and it made no difference. Can anyone see the problem? -- 21:36, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Hmm, as of right now the beadcrumb navigation displays without any problems. --Peter Talk 02:00, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
After purging the cache for a page the page will reload, but without the IsIn... if you then click on the "article" tab to reload the article, you should see it – cacahuate talk 16:10, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

Real newbie question I can't find the answer to..

what's the little red flashing dot next to the "my talk" ?? I click on "my talk" and there's nothing there. I can't click on the dot itself... If I have a new message waiting... how to I get there? Occasional Traveller 07:46, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

Looking at your talk page, there's one message there, from OldPine from a few days ago; that's what the dot indicates. Not sure why you can't see the message. --Jonboy 10:57, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
There is a bug in that talk indicator. Users with a space or underscore in their username can not click on it to access their talk page and once a message is left on the user talkpage the red dot will never stop flashing. I have the same issue. I've logged a call on shared:Technical requests, but can't seem to find it right now. --Nick 12:40, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

I can see the message when I go to my User page, then click Discussion, but not when I go to "my talk" page. One difference I notice is that on "my talk", it says: :User talk:Occasional+Traveller" whereas when I go to my User page then to Discussion, it says: "User talk:Occasional Traveller" (notice no '+' sign in my username). I also have a username with a space (and apparently the same name with an underscore in place of the space... )... can I change it? That red dot is really bugging me... (>.<) !! Occasional Traveller 13:05, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

I almost managed to forget and ignore that irritating flashing red dot, until I saw you comment. Now, for the past hour the thing has been irritating me so much that I just had to find a workaround in order to get it switched off. Here's what you do: open your talk page with the space html escaped, i.e. %20. In other word, open this --Nick 13:59, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
Thanks Nick. That did it. I'll have to keep that as a bookmark until the bug is fixed. Sorry to make that irritate you, and thanks for the temporary fix! Occasional Traveller 10:41, 24 June 2008 (EDT)

This bug is already reported, see shared:Tech:User's talk page link contains plus instead of space and shared:Tech:Rein N. becomes ReinplusN. when I click my talk in menu -- Sergey kudryavtsev 16:22, 23 June 2008 (EDT)


Where exactly does the sports section fit in a country page? Under the culture section, or under Do? Or does it depend on the sport and its role in the country. What about, say, cricket in India. Cricket is an integral aspect of Indian culture, and acts as a unifying factor. Besides, cricket fans often travel to India from abroad to support their country during tours/tournaments so, in that sense, it should fall under DO. Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 04:28, 28 June 2008 (EDT) (Sorry, I forgot to sign :)

Hmm, tbd... Wikitravel_talk:Country_article_template#See_sectioncacahuate talk 00:43, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
Wikitravel:Where you can stick it says information on spectator sports goes under "Do". On a country page, if you're talking about the sport in general and how it works in the country's culture, it should probably go in "Understand" somewhere. If you're talking about a specific team or stadium or event, it should go in "Do". LtPowers 22:05, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

Translating place names into English?

I'm working on Ciénaga_de_Zapata_and_the_Bahia_de_Cochinos_(Bay_of_Pigs). cacahuate talk correctly pointed out that I didn't name the article correctly, but I'm uncertain what the correct name should be. I looked at Wikitravel:Article_naming_conventions but didn't find an answer. cacahuate talk suggested "Ciénaga de Zapata National Park." But the name of the national park is "Parque Nacional Ciénaga de Zapata." Maybe the title should be "Parque Nacional Ciénaga de Zapata (National Park)." To make matters more complicated, this national park was the site of the most important battle of the communist era, and well-known to many Americans. So I added "and the Bahia de Cochinos" plus the English translation "(Bay of Pigs)." So the title that seems best to me is "Parque Nacional Ciénaga de Zapata (National Park) and the Bahia de Cochinos (Bay of Pigs)." But that is a long title! Any suggestions?--Chapayev 13:24, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

I think "Ciénaga de Zapata National Park" is the answer. That gets 900+ google hits to the 607 that "Parque Nacional Ciénaga de Zapata" gets, and we use the most common English name, rather than official names on Wikitravel. I think a redirect page for Ciénaga de Zapata National Park would be wise. And since the Bay of Pigs is an event rather than a destination (or am I wrong?), it should not get a redirect, but you can indicate that the park was the site of the botched invasion in the park article itself, as well as one-liner descriptions of the park in the "other destinations" section of its parent region. Also, we use names in parentheses in article titles only for disambiguation purposes. --Peter Talk 14:25, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
This afternoon I did a bunch of work on the Pinar_del_Rio_(province) page, including creating three new pages for national parks. What looks right to me is to use the official name as the article name, then when you link to the page add in parentheses the English translation. For example: Parque Nacional de Viñales (Viñales National Park). Adding extra names on the right side of the pipe is easy. Following this style produces: Parque Nacional Ciénaga de Zapata (Ciénaga de Zapata National Park, and the Bahia de Cochinos or Bay of Pigs). Does that look acceptable to everyone? P.S. the Bay of Pigs is a place, the Bay of Pigs Invasion was the event. And when we settle on the name for this page, let's add a list of national parks to Cuba.--Chapayev 19:20, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

State names with U.S. cities . . .

What is the style for state names with U.S. cities (and, for that matter, any similar appellations)? It is annoying to search for Los Angeles, California, only to be directed to a Disambiguation page. I notice that some cities are followed by the name of the state in parentheses, but that's not the way most people would do a search. See Aurora (Colorado). Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 09:50, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

A current rules was explained in Wikitravel:Article naming conventions. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 10:19, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
Los Angeles, California should be a redirect to Los Angeles. I have created it as such. LtPowers 14:05, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

User:Eric Bauman

The chances that User:Eric Bauman is actually Eric Bauman are vanishingly slim. User should be blocked indefinitely rather than just for a week. LtPowers 09:42, 14 July 2008 (EDT)

need help to simplify something

I started playing around with the "get out" sections of the two regions near where I live, the Skylands region of New Jersey and the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. And I started talking about Interstate 80, which goes from just outside of New York City to San Francisce, passing through Pittsburgh, Chicago, Des Moines, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City and a ton of other places. I'm not sure of any other Interstate that goes all the way from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific like it does. So on these regional pages, I just started posting links to these cities, and it got quite cumbersome and ugly. If there were an itinerary page for Route 80, or something, it might help. There is some interesting discussion about a "Highway and Interstate travel guide" here and apparently I'm not sure if it's good or not. Most interstates go to two or three cities or regions at the most, but places like Route 80 (that's what we call it) and I-95, which goes up and down the east coast of the USA, are whole projects. Are my eyes bigger than my keyboard fingers? Thank a lot. I'm pretty new to this. It's fun. My brother has been all over the world, and I've been to a few overseas places. I just saw that there was almost nothing around here where I live, so I thought I would fill it in with something. Somebody already said "nice job" to me once, so I guess I'll keep going. Maybe I'll improve my home economy a little bit. Look forward to hearing from youKire1975 02:09, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure "San Francisco" is a good choice for a "get out" destination from New Jersey. The fact that they're connected by a single Interstate (as are Boston and Seattle, I should point out) is an interesting trivium, but not really useful to the average traveler. Now, an article on I-80 would be fine, in my opinion, but people who are headed to New Jersey aren't generally going to go visit San Francisco as their next destination. A few might, but not enough to bother mentioning it in the "Get out" section. What would go there (for the Skylands article, at least) would be things like New York (city), Poconos, Philadelphia and maybe as far as Washington DC. You could also mention New England as it's not far. LtPowers 10:59, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
Get out sections are for nearby attractions or cities that people are likely to visit, generally within a couple hours drive or less; I definitely wouldn't list everything city that the highways leading out of a city head to. I personally can't really see the usefulness of an I-80 article... we generally don't have articles on highways or freeways, unless they're exceptional like Route 66. I think for the most part we should be focused on what the traveler would be focused on: the destinations. I-80 simply connects those destinations, and is best talked about in the city articles. I think it could be fun though to mention in San Francisco#Get out that I-80 stretches all the way to NYC. But I don't know about each and every town along the route – cacahuate talk 23:24, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
I think the hypothetical I-80 article would be part of a Travel Topic series on the U.S. Interstate highway system, per this discussion. LtPowers 11:56, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

several townships named washington in new jersey

hello, I am having trouble with the disambiguation of the township of washington in New Jersey. Where I live, there are two Washington townships practically right next each other. One in Morris County (commonly known as Long Valley because that's the name of the post office), and one just a few miles away in Warren County. Right now, the morris county one is listed as "Washington (Morris County, New Jersey)" on the disambiguation page and I"m not sure how it got there, or do I know how to get the warren county one on that page, either. They both need a lot of work, but it's a start. My main concern is that when I tried to redirect the page called "Long Valley" to the morris county page and it said "This action cannot be performed on this page." Has this ever happened before? thanks Kire1975 04:29, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

It looks like you added the Warren County one just fine. To create the redirect, just edit Long Valley and put #REDIRECT [[Washington (Morris County, New Jersey)]] in the edit box. LtPowers 11:05, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
Is it much more commonly referred to as Long Valley? Cause if that's the case then we should name the article that, we prefer most common over official names, per our article naming conventions. If not, and we do need to differentiate between the two, then they should both be shortened to "City (County), rather than City (County, State) – cacahuate talk 23:30, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
sounds fine to me. I'm very tired right now. I'll get to it soon, I promise. Kire1975 20:46, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

cacahuate, I've always been confused about how to change the names of pages once they are created, is there something that could help me figure out how to do all that. Do I have to create a new page with the right name, transfer all the information, and then nominate the old page for deletion? or should I redirect something somewhere? I'm sorry. Once I figure this out, I should be good for awhile.

Also, I've got another one for you, very similar:

Sussex (New Jersey) is a town in Sussex County (New Jersey). How should that be handled on the disambiguation page? Where would I put the word town? And also, like above, how is that done? Thanks Jargas 06:34, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

There's a tab at the top of every page that says "move". Use that to rename an article, and a redirect will be created from the old name to the new one. As for Sussex, just add Sussex (New Jersey) to the bottom of the list and say it's a town in New Jersey. LtPowers 11:37, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Newbie Maps Question

Hey guys. So I'm a newbie here and I'd like to continue plunging forward on some of the places I've been and such. I've also realized that many of the guides here on wikitravel have excellent maps (examples shared:Image:Map-USA-Regions01.png and shared:Image:Map_of_Asia.png). I hate to sound niave, but what program/website/software do you use to produce these excellent maps? and how would I go about making my own? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Matt.Cannella 18:19, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Hi, Matt, and welcome. I think all your questions are answered at Wikitravel:Mapmaking Expedition. If not, leave a message on my talk page and I'll chase it down. OldPine 18:49, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
Definitely also take a look at Wikitravel:How to draw a map, which explains the Wikitravel conventions for creating maps in Inkscape. And Wikitravel:How to create a map, which explains how to auto-generate street maps from OSM data (although you need to be running a UNIX-based OS to use this method). --Peter Talk 00:15, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Wikitravel:How to draw a map is good for city maps but provides no guidance on region maps, unfortunately. My own attempts at region maps have been pretty hodgepodge as a result (see shared:User:LtPowers/Gallery). LtPowers 11:04, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Avoid news links

I was about to add [2][3] to China#Shopping as the warning was something I wasn't sure of until I googled it. As this is something verified in reliable sources, I would think it would be useful and not POV to add them. But I know this isn't Wikipedia, so I'm asking. Tenerife 08:58, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

It depends on how relevant such information is to the typical traveler. If they're likely to pick up pre-1911 items while browsing for souvenirs, and if the restrictions apply to everyone and not just "dealers and collectors", then it's absolutely worth a mention. LtPowers 11:04, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Travel News

Maybe I'm missing something, but there seems to be a problem with adding Travel News to the main page. The Travel news page itself is just fine, but when I follow the instructions in Wikitravel:How to add travel news#Adding news to Main Page I end up at a page that says "No such section You tried to edit a section that doesn't exist. Since there is no section 15, there's no place to save your edit."

Right now the "Travel warning: Hurricane Dolly" news item dated 23rd July which is sitting in Travel News#Future really ought to be on the main page - but I can't see a way to put it there, Presumably neither could the anonymous user ( who wrote it. Tarr3n 13:43, 25 July 2008 (EDT)


Hi, my photography skills have always been scarey! I am looking for some photos for San Francisco and I've already looked at wikimedia commons and on the image resource page here [4]. Does anyone know of any other copyright compatible sites where I could get more photos. And if this is a real pub...I'll have an apple-martini please as well! :) Thanks Asterix 13:57, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

On Flickr... you can search for compatible pics fairly easily there... go to Advanced search, type in san francisco, and at the bottom make sure to check all 3 of the boxes in the Creative Commons section (otherwise they may not be compatible). Or search for other specific things like "Golden Gate Bridge" or whatever. Good luck! – cacahuate talk 18:25, 28 July 2008 (EDT)
Yes, that's much better - thanks Asterix 15:45, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Regions Map Expedition

I realize I skipped that "soliciting advice in the pub" step again before launching another Wikitravel Expedition, so I might as well do it now. Suggestions? Criticism? Advice? Initially, I was just going to make these lists in my userspace, but I figured it might be more wiki to put this out in the Wikitravel namespace, since it might be useful to others and might promote collaboration, which is always good. --Peter Talk 23:10, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Good expedition. I'm short on time, but will join up is a week or two. I've been wanting to sort out the regions in Portugal, Botswana and Mozambique for a long time now. It's good to have the list, that way we have something to work against. --Nick 01:28, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
Suppoort. I agree with the rationale for the expedition. I put in quite a bit of work to revise the region boundaries in Washington (state), and I'm about to do the same with the Lower Mainland, British Columbia, Canada. Your point that maps help eliminate overlap in region boundaries is a particularly good one from my experience. JimDeLaHunt 01:52, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Collections: Build your own Wikitravel books

Just a heads-up for the feature request for the Collections extension. This is an existing Mediawiki plugin that lets you build "collections" (bookmark sets) shopping-cart style, and then print them out as paper copies. It's already up and running on some wikis like the OpenOffice wiki, it's coming to Wikipedia soon, and it would rock to get this on Wikitravel as well. Please chip in to the discussion! Jpatokal 08:07, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Copyrighted material

Hi, I have a quick question. When I was writing up info on the San Francisco/Golden Gate article, I got a bit lazy when it came to the section on the Presidio, and I added many of the listings there pretty much straight from their website — although saying that, not verbatim. Although I've been there a zillion times I used their layout as it was unlikely I could improve on it and they say here [5] that the info is not copyrighted and in the public domain. I just wanted to double check that this is ok to use on WT. Asterix 19:05, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Publications of the US government are in the public domain unless otherwise specified, so all CIA maps, NPS text, etc. is OK to copy verbatim to Wikitravel. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:32, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
Thanks Asterix 18:51, 2 August 2008 (EDT)


...copied from User talk:Peterfitzgerald

Thanks for your help again at San Francisco/Chinatown-North Beach. I like the following photo a lot, and would like to add it [6] (it's the musical barber under the "Do" section)..however, I read that photos of people were a no-no. Given that he's the real attraction here, would this rule apply here too in your opinion? Thanks Asterix 17:51, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Hi...I was hoping that someone could help me with the above? Asterix 15:33, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Hey sorry about that! I tend to forget things when I don't respond right away... That's definitely a cool photo (and a cool listing), but I'm pretty sure that would run afoul of our shared:Image policy#People in photos policy, since he is identifiable & clearly the subject of the photo. Unless, that is, you got him to sign a model release. --Peter Talk 22:37, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
Thx Peter — I'll leave it for now; I might try and get that release later though if I have the time... Asterix 12:49, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Can't move page

I don't know if this is a bug or if I'm just doing something wrong, but when I try to rename the page West Aegean Islands to Western Greek Islands (because I realized after creating the page that the Western Greek Islands aren't in the Aegean) using Move Page, I get an error "This action cannot be performed on this page." (I've been able to rename other pages recently.) Sailsetter 11:33, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

After writing that I moved another page (The Greek Islands to Greek Islands) and it worked ok, in the same login session. So I don't know what's wrong with the Western Aegean Islands move. Sailsetter 11:36, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

West Aegean Islands hasn't been created yet, it seems :) – cacahuate talk 12:16, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
Oh. Duh. Thanks. Sailsetter 12:37, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Greek wine site?

Would it be within policy to link from the Greece page this web site? [7] This is a site about Greek wine makers, and it seems to be the major site in English for the industry. It's a commercial site in the sense that it seems to be sponsored by a private consultancy, but so far as I can tell they aren't selling anything through the web site. I'm considering using a link to it to replace the current very lengthy listings on Greek wineries on the Greek page. Sailsetter 11:55, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

I think No, but maybe not for the reason you think. Wikitravel seeks to be usable by people who print out Wikitravel pages and put the paper in their pocket. All that fine content on an external web site is lost to someone using paper. Secondarily, Wikitravel seeks to be a free travel guide. Text on a wikitravel page is free (as in libre), and can be reused. Text on an external web site probably is not. If the site were selling something, that would a third reason not to link to it, rather than the only reason. See Wikitravel:External links#What not to link to for more guidance. JimDeLaHunt 03:00, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
Well then how about the proposal to remove the winery listings? They're of some value, but they take up an awful lot of space. Besides, couldn't the same argument that's been made against linking to the comprehensive Greek wine web site be made against linking to a long list of individual Greek winery web sites? Sailsetter 09:48, 25 August 2008 (EDT)
I'm afraid I don't follow you. I don't know what "proposal to remove the winery listings" you mean. I don't see one in Talk:Greece. There are winery listings in Greece#Wines. I count 15 of them, basically all associated with regions. Individual winery listings could be pushed down to region or destination articles, and the discussion of wineries in Greece shortened. That's just a matter of trading off length vs detail, which is an issue in every article. If someone's proposing making an external link to a non-wikitravel site with a long list of individual Greek winery web sites, I'd say that Wikitravel:External links#What not to link to discourages that too. JimDeLaHunt 03:09, 27 August 2008 (EDT)
If the wineries info gets too unwieldly, "Greek Wineries" would definitely be a valid travel topic. You could move information there (as well as prose about Greek wine and visiting wineries). --Peter Talk 13:21, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

region map color cool

I would like to edit the article about Romania and make the regions appear in the article with colors to match the ones I put on the map of Romania. I can find no template or code for it. i have tried to copy the code from Netherlands but I did not succeed in making it work. Where can I find the proper code?

Deni120 09:03, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

The easiest way is to copy the code from an article that already has it (like Antarctica). But the template is here. Hope that's what you were looking for! And nice map, by the way—perhaps you'd be interested to look over our new Wikitravel:Regions Map Expedition. --Peter Talk 10:18, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Arabic Wikitravel

Could someone please add the link to Arabic Wikitravel? Hot Coffee 13:40, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Signature Question

I've noticed that some users have a special signature that automatically displays a "talk" link after their username. Looking at the code for this signature it looks something like this:

[[User:cacahuate|<font color="green">cacahuate</font>]] <sup><small>[[User talk:cacahuate|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 12:16, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

It creates something that looks like this: cacahuate talk 12:16, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

I've been using the regular signature formatting, but I'd like to be able to put this talk link directly next to my there a way to do this automatically?

I have been searching the help and the pub archives for this answer but to no avail...please help, thanks! --Huckabmm 00:43, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Yes! You do it in your preferences... under "profile", make sure that "raw signature" box is checked, then you enter the signature you would like in the "nickname" section... experiment until you find something you like. After you save, then just type your signature as you normally would, using 4 tildes (~~~~) and it will spit out your new signature  :) – cacahuate talk 02:47, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
Thanks so much! That worked perfectly! --Matt Talk 11:06, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Code Function Question

Hi all, I've been poking around in the help trying to find a guide for some of the functions I've seen in the code but I can't seem to find it. I'm mainly concerned with the "quickbar" function. I'm trying to appropriately apply it to the Nashville page, but I cannot find a list of the available "subheadings".

For example, in the Singapore article there are a great many items in the quickbar, but I want to know all of the ones that the system will there any place in the help for this?

The code looks something like this:

| image=[[Image:Singapore CBD Dusk.JPG|noframe|250px]]
| flag=[[Image:sn-flag.png]]
| location=[[Image:LocationSingapore.png]]

I want to know all of the listings like "image", "flag", "location", etc. Maybe I just haven't found it yet...

That being said, is there a listing of other functions (in addition to "quickbar") that the code will recognize?

Thanks! --Matt Talk 02:20, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

The quickbar only used for country articles. We do not use it for cities. It is a template and if you still want to know how it works, look at Template:Quickbar --Nick 02:40, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
Good to know, thanks. I didn't know. I will remove it. --Matt Talk 11:40, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Situation in South Ossetia

I earnestly ask anyone to rewrite the news about a situation in South Ossetia. Current Piter's edition is no neutral point of view in my opinion (e.g. compare with neutral in Wikinews statements in [8]). It's impotant for us to clear a tragedy of the situation but not a political estimation. To do this, you can use a some numbers reported by Russian TV: about 2000 killed civilians in Tskhinvali and more than 30000 refugees from South Ossetia. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 11:38, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure what's non-neutral about my write-up (although, of course, we don't aim for neutrality. But also, we should neither be getting into politics nor writing about tragedies—as a travel site, all that we need to do is warn travelers. And right now, I think what a traveler needs to know is: there is a war, it's dangerous, don't go there. That's what I tried to write. In the future it will be necessary to write about these events in more detail in the understand section of South Ossetia, but I don't think we should do that until after the conflict (since we're not a news site). --Peter Talk 23:31, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
In "Political disputes" of Wikitravel:Be fair says: The best way out is to stick to the bare minimum of facts necessary, presented as neutrally as possible, while keeping a firm focus on the traveller's interests. A non-neutral statement is bolded: War has broken out in the Caucasus between Georgia and Russia within the separatist region of South Ossetia, ... (because Russia is not in a war state with Georgia; Russian troops just perform a peacekeeper mission incumbent by UN). I suppose only to remove a bolded text. Are you agree? -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:27, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
Prime Minister Putin on 8/8/08 called the current conflict between Russia-Georgia a war, Georgia has mobilized all its armed forces and recalled 2,000 troops from Iraq to fight the Russian forces there, Russia has bombed Poti, all major Georgian airports, Bolnisi, and Gori. Prior to 8/8, Russia's presence within Georgian territory was only peacekeeping, but that has changed. The point is, regardless of what anyone calls it, from the traveler's perspective a war has broken out, so travelers should not visit the country! Were this still an ongoing conflict between the Ossetes & Georgians within South Ossetia, then travelers could visit the rest of the country, but that's not the case right now. I still don't see what is non-neutral about the statement as is (it doesn't take sides, does it?) and I think it mentions the bare minimum of facts necessary. Over explaining the conflict would include what I just wrote here, as well as explaining the sources of the conflict, which I think we should avoid, since there are competing narratives, and the reasons why this is happening are controversial. --Peter Talk 03:13, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
If it looks like war and sounds like war, it probably is war. And considering Russian and Georgian troops are involved, I don't see how the war could be between anyone else but Russia and Georgia. You could, I suppose, replace "war" with "intense fighting" and "Russia" with "Russian troops", but both changes strike me as needless weaseling. LtPowers 08:30, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
I change the news item per LtPowers' proposal. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 13:49, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
It wasn't really a proposal; I was explaining that the current wording was accurate and concise and that any changes to the wording would be "needless weaseling". LtPowers 16:50, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
There is a full mutual misunderstanding. You may revert a changes. I already regret that i was started this discussion. It's complicated for me to explain my opinion using a foreign language. I don't want to continue a useless discussion. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 03:06, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
Now you understand how it is for me when I'm trying to make an argument on the Russian version ;) --Peter Talk 17:47, 13 August 2008 (EDT)


Hi all,

It's good to be away from drill sergeants and back to working on Wikitravel, but with a ~ 9 week absence I'd like a run down on policy changes and any major discussions. Could you help me out? Feel free to email me (user page for those of you who do not already have it) and/or talk page. I'd appreciate it and thanks in advance! -- Sapphire(Talk) • 00:04, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Not much of note on the English version, but take a look at the pub and IB-related stuff on shared—most policy & other major discussions have migrated there. And glad to have you back ;) --Peter Talk 00:33, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Page title extension?

Looking at Special:Version there's an extension "setupTravelGuideTitle". Is this the extension that allows a page like Kingston (Ontario) to show up in the title bar of the browser as "Kingston travel guide - Wikitravel"? (I.e. the "(Ontario)" is stopped from displaying.)

Could we find out more about this extension? Much appreciated. --Chriswaterguy 22:55, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

Delete all respect sections

Here's another impetuous suggestion: get rid of all respect sections. Do any of them rise beyond the level of drivel? Do they serve a purpose other than to attract inane blather? --Peter Talk 00:29, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

I've never read a Respect section I liked. However I can see the point of them as it annoys the hell out of me every time I hear the words "English" and "British" used interchangably. If I was from outside the UK and didn't understand the difference then I would probably be grateful for reading about it on Wikitravel and therefore not rubbing the locals up the wrong way when I got here. That's just a local example. Tarr3n 05:37, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
I share the disdain for this section. Often it seems to be directed to those without common sense. It can serve the traveller occasionally when there are important cultural mistakes to avoid, but then that would get covered anyways (without the section header), would it not? Perhaps under "Understand". OldPine 07:56, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
Allow me to be the voice of dissension, then. I find a well-written Respect section to be fascinating. Perhaps it would fit better as a subsection of "Understand", but either way I think it's a useful grouping for cultural issues that may arise. The one in the United States of America article is particularly illuminating, even for me, a lifelong resident. I also have found the one in the Japan article interesting. LtPowers 09:00, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
Agreed with OldPine--to me the English/British conflation is more a mark of ignorance than disrespect, and therefore should be in the Understand section. Ugh, and that reminds me of that groaner from the England page, "Why aren't you wearing a tweed suit and bowler hat?", "Why don't you have a posh accent?", or "What time do you have tea and crumpets?" etc. Remember these clichés don't accurately reflect the English people or their culture, and never have done, and they are likely to cause either offence or bemusement. If anything, this did want to make me ask these questions, just since they seem absurd to the point of comedy—but more worrisome is that this has seemed to be the most popular paragraph to edit in the section...
Nice counterexamples too. I'm tempted to rule out Japan as a useful example for covering any other country, since, to mis-quote Buddy Guy, "she's a superstar, she's in a class of her own." Japan also has a bathe section, but I don't think we should start using that elsewhere! The US respect section was long a disaster area and an embarrassment to the rest of the article. What did eventually get things looking better was to limit all discussion to focused bullet points (although some silly ones still remain, like the advisory to not joke about the 9/11 terrorist attacks—perhaps a travel topic on the intricacies of travel for the purpose of mocking foreigners' national tragedies?). That page also benefits from the fact that so many regular users vet any edits to it.
I do think merging respect sections into "Understand" would be a good way to help prevent the "respect" details from rambling on too long. I'd also really like to limit the proliferation of respect sections to only country articles (in the case of the UK, putting respect info on the home nations pages instead of the UK one might be worthwhile). --Peter Talk 11:37, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
Respect is an optional section... all of the arguments above are reasons to rewrite or delete badly written ones, but I think they have a time and place and can be useful. I could care less whether it's its own section or a subsection of Understand, but I'd vote for leaving it as is since it would be a huge waste of time changing them with absolutely no gain. I'd be all for continuing to delete irrelevant or overly obvious info and keeping them neat and tight, but I don't think we should banish them altogether, and I think they should only show up when they really have something relevant to say – cacahuate talk 17:32, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
As I can be dumber than a doornail sometimes, I do appreciate the Respect sections, that is where I learned WASP's are not welcome in Mecca, and one should not go to Mexico without some appreciation of Machisamo. So, I would rather keep them. You know, like Travel for Dummies. 2old 12:04, 23 August 2008 (EDT)
I just added the "local country" page which aims to put all main pointers into one page. As the most useful knowabouts on sensivities are the same everywhere, I guess putting it all into one page is something that can be done and simplifies things (in world travel books, these things are also mentioned in just a few pages. 15:28, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

For places like Saudi Arabia, a Respect section can come in mighty handy. So no, they should not be removed wholesale, but they should just be edited more tightly to remove crap. Jpatokal 12:17, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Trail of breadcrumbs help

Many articles have at their beginning a "trail of breadcrumbs" showing how to navigate back, for instance, "Europe : Mediterranean Europe : Greece : Crete".

Where can I find documentation of how to add or change this? Sailsetter 15:25, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

Welcome to Wikitravel! I believe Wikitravel:Breadcrumb navigation has the information you need. If anything isn't clear, feel free to ask here or on Wikitravel talk:Breadcrumb navigation. LtPowers 15:44, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

Israeli Visa and Entry to Other Nations

Hi, a friend of mine told me that he has heard of some Eastern European countries that will deny entry to an American with a passport that has an Israeli visa attached to it. I think it would be hard to imagine an EU country (even in Eastern Europe) not allowing an American into the country simply because of another foreign visa. But what about non-EU countries? Has anyone experienced this problem? Do any of you think it is even remotely likely?

I posted this on the Israel talk page but I am not sure if it is very active, so I thought I'd post it here so it might be seen by more people. If this is an error please feel free to delete either post. Thanks! --Matt Talk 00:50, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

This has been answered in Talk:Israel --Matt Talk 10:16, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

Someone is impersonating me on Wikitravel

Someone has been cyberstalking and cyberbullying me, and the latest thing they've done is impersonate me on Wikitravel by creating an account with the same name as my account on Wikipedia. This person used my real name on their user page (I don't want my real name associated with my user name), and they made multiple abusive edits, getting themselves temporarily blocked. So, what should I do? I don't want to give this person any more attention and motivate them to impersonate me all over the internet, so I'd rather the account be deleted rather than turned over to me. Advice? -- 10:30, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

Well, you could start by telling us the account name. Jpatokal 12:15, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Wikiversity brainstorming

There is an article at wikiversity about cheap independant travel. Its about thinking cooperatively about the cheapest methods. Please add links from wikitravel to this wikiversity page

Seems like a good project, but the page is somewhat bare right now and I think we have enough on our plates writing for this site. Just my thoughts --Matt Talk 22:12, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Low-cost airplane "hubs"

I was wondering whether it would be beneficial to include a article abou long-haul airplane "hubs". As such, travellers can now which first airplane to take to bridge the largest distance at the cheapest cost (as these flights are generally the most expensive and can easily cost 1500-2000$ . For example flying to china is best done from the UK by Air Asia X, to India by Jet Airways, ... Similar hubs should also be found for SE Asia, ... Also the Pacific is something needing to be looked into. I recently saw that Bruce Parry used Singapore to bridge the longest distance in his trip to Anuta, perhaps this is a cheap flight too ? If its a good idea, perhaps its also good to include a worldmap with the main connections. 08:56, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

See Discount airlines. Jpatokal 12:15, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Formatting question

I have seen several conflicting formatting choices for the "See", "Do", and other sections of articles and I am curious to know which is correct. This is in reference to Nashville. Thanks for the help! --Matt Talk 12:06, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Formatted using the <do> tag like this:

* <do name = "Bluebird Cafe" address = "4104 Hillsboro Pike" directions = "" phone = "615-383-1461" email= "" fax = "" url = "" hours = "" price="">With its unlikely location in a strip mall in Green Hills, has long been the destination of choice for local and national songwriters, fans of songwriters, and label scouts. Expect schmoozing, sets in-the-round, and lines around the block. Keep in mind, though, that quiet is requested at all times during a performance. </do>

  • Bluebird Cafe, 4104 Hillsboro Pike, 615-383-1461, [1]. With its unlikely location in a strip mall in Green Hills, has long been the destination of choice for local and national songwriters, fans of songwriters, and label scouts. Expect schmoozing, sets in-the-round, and lines around the block. Keep in mind, though, that quiet is requested at all times during a performance.

Or formatted using general wikitravel formatting, like this:

* '''Belle Meade Plantation''', 5025 Harding Road, ''+1 615'' 356 0501 (''group sales: 1-800-270-3991''), []. Tours by costumed guides available M-Sa 9:30AM-4PM, Su 11:30AM-4PM. Featuring the mansion built in 1853 and restored restored, as well as the carriage house from 1890 and one of the oldest log cabins in Tennessee, built in 1790. There is a great deal of history associated with the plantation starting from before the American Civil War. Adult $11, Seniors $10, Children 6-12 $5, Children under 6, Free.

  • Belle Meade Plantation, 5025 Harding Road, +1 615 356 0501 (group sales: 1-800-270-3991), [9]. Tours by costumed guides available M-Sa 9:30AM-4PM, Su 11:30AM-4PM. Featuring the mansion built in 1853 and restored restored, as well as the carriage house from 1890 and one of the oldest log cabins in Tennessee, built in 1790. There is a great deal of history associated with the plantation starting from before the American Civil War. Adult $11, Seniors $10, Children 6-12 $5, Children under 6, Free.
You should use the do tag format. See Wikitravel:Listings for details. Jpatokal 12:14, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
Even despite "This feature is still experimental..."? --Matt Talk 14:21, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
We should remove that disclaimer—it's no longer experimental; it's standard. --Peter Talk 15:48, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
Got it. Thanks guys. I removed the disclaimer from Wikitravel:Listings--Matt Talk 15:54, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
It may be standard, but it still has problems. I'm not sure why we use an XML-style tag instead of a MediaWiki template; the latter seems more flexible and wiki-like, though I suppose there may be some performance problems. I've also had problems formatting the data in the Listings tags -- primarily, I can't get the country code and area code to be italicized in the phone number field. LtPowers 19:19, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
I agree with LtPowers, not long ago i reported on shared about this impossibilities. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:17, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

List of Wikitravel articles in easy to gather format

Hello all,

I was wondering if there was a list of wikitravel articles available in a format which is easy to import into a text doucumant such as notepad. I have found Special:Allpages, however it is not easy to extract this list to a usable format. Any suggestions to where i could locate such a list?

Many thanks,

--Sirtrebuchet 17:57, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure if there is a way to list all of the articles on one page or not, but I don't imagine it would be too difficult to write a Word macro (or equivalent) to organize the data in a way that would be helpful to you. If you would like help doing this please contact me. --Matt Talk 22:14, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
You can also use the api if you have some programming experience. The following link will return the first 50 article names in XML: Info on the API is available at If you decide to use it, be careful not to abuse the WT servers. Keep total number of articles requested at a time small (less than 500) and implement delays between requests. --Nick 08:07, 25 August 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for all of the ideas. You guys are a great help. I am currently working with the second idea suggested, as it seems to be what i am looking for and i think i will be able to get it to do what i want. Thanks for the quick and helpful replies. --Sirtrebuchet 22:04, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel in German & Italian

Why we cannot edit any city in German or Italian? Thanks

Anonymous edits have been disabled on the Italian Wikitravel version, because of 1) spam problems and 2) lack of active administrators. The German version should be fully editable by anyone (and I have no trouble doing so). What exactly is preventing you from editing in German? Has your ip been blocked? --Peter Talk 14:51, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

Florida Expedition

I have created a Florida Expedition, with the goal of getting the Florida state page up to Guide status. Anyone who would like to participate, please sign up. gamweb 03:52, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

CSS troubles

Last month i try to create in ru:MediaWiki:Common.css CSS style for standard tables. But it does not work at all, therefore I reports about a bug to tech team (see shared:Tech:Common.css does not work). Meanwhile i create a tables with a ton of code like this:

Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
Cell 1 Cell 2 Cell 3 Cell 4

Unfortunately a wiki-markup becomes unreadable. How a contributors on :en solve such troubles? -- Sergey kudryavtsev 05:39, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Collaboration of the Month— A Plug

Just a wee plug for the newly revamped Collaboration of the Month. After some discussion, the consensus was that the Collaboration of the Week format was not working, so we have moved to a monthly format, with 3 collaborations from different continents each month. The Collaboration of the Month is an opportunity to highlight a specific Wikitravel article that needs improvement in some way. While anyone can edit any article at any time, the Collaboration of the Month provides a way to highlight a single article allowing many contributors to help improve it together. As most of you have probably noticed on the Main_Page or Project Home Page, the collaborations for September 2008 are Calabar, Beijing and Little Rock. Do please have a look and plunge forward! Tarr3n 07:36, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

I really hope this takes off. For it to work we'll need at least a small pool of ~3+ interested users who do semi-regular work on the CotMs. I'll do my best to try and pitch in a bit. --Peter Talk 12:39, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

"Talk" sections

Is there any compelling reason for a "Talk" section not to be on a city article, if there are legitimate language issues to mention? On a related note, I see Philadelphia has a slang guide under "Cope", which seems odd. Is that an appropriate location for it, or should it be in a "Talk" section? Or is "Talk" just for actual language issues rather than dialects/slang? LtPowers 09:53, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

I've always used talk sections to cover local dialects and slang, but I love that stuff—maybe it's generally too in depth for Wikitravel? It's generally not useful for travel, but I think it makes for interesting travel reading. I've been meaning to write a little bit about Bawlmorese. --Peter Talk 12:37, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
Not questioning the usefulness of the content, just the placement. And also still wondering if it's okay to have a Talk section in a city article. LtPowers 18:35, 4 September 2008 (EDT)
I'd put information like a Philly slang guide under a talk section, yes. I wouldn't add a talk section to the city template, but I think it's fair to put one in when appropriate. --Peter Talk 18:57, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Strip Clubs or Topless Clubs

I don't know if this issue has been addressed before, but do we list "nudie bars?" LOL What sort of euphemism to use for a heading? gamweb 21:43, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

They go under "drink," along with any other nightclub. There are restrictions, though, per Wikitravel:Sex tourism policy. --Peter Talk 23:49, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
Thanks, I figured they would fall under "drink," however, I was looking for an subtitle other than "Night Club" or "Tavern" to put them under. How about "Adult Club?" gamweb 17:25, 4 September 2008 (EDT)
If there are a bunch in one article, I'd just list them under "Strip clubs"—"Adult club" sounds too euphemistic. --Peter Talk 17:46, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Patrol Expedition

Another expedition idea—one that's been on my mind for a while: an expedition to promote recent changes patrolling. We get a lot of small time vandalism & touting edits that are really easy to clean up if done right away, but much harder to sort out in the long term. Just covering a small section of the day allows you to catch these small time vandals/touts/spammers and reduce the harm they do to our guides in a significant way.

But we've got a big collective action problem in that no one wants to work on this if they're the only one doing so—that's demoralizing. The solution? Get people to volunteer to regularly patrol very small sections of the day. I've been patrolling 02:00–04:00 GMT (8PM-10PM U.S. central time), and it takes me a mere 5 minutes each day to do so. I say we start an expedition where members can volunteer to patrol edits in 2 hour chunks. It still remains purely voluntary, but working together should make it more appealing than trying to face the mountains of edits we get each day in isolation.

Thoughts? --Peter Talk 17:55, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

No thoughts? Really? Just say the word and I'll set this up. --Peter Talk 23:29, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
If we could find 50-100 people willing to make such a commitment then this could be a great idea, but otherwise I don't know how well it would work out. Personally, while I do my fair share of patrolling, my schedule is messed up enough that I couldn't commit to anything regular. I suspect that a much more effective step would be to convince IB to implement shared:Tech:ClueBot anti-vandalism bot for Wikitravel which would catch a significant amount of the vandalism on the site, although that tech request has gone six months without action. Alternatively, perhaps just making more people aware of what patrolling is would help increase the number of patrolled edits. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:58, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
By my count, it would be 12 people. And since I do my 2 hours in 5 minutes each day, that would be a total time commitment of one hour/day, across all Wikitravelers. Seems doable to me. Even with just a very partial coverage, that would catch medium-volume vandals and touts that we miss, who spread their edits out throughout the day, or a couple of days. Using the expedition to raise the profile of patrolled edits also sounds like a great idea to me — I get the impression that most new regular contributors have no idea what those flags are for. --Peter Talk 01:15, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
Sorry, should have been clearer - twelve would be a minimum in order to get full coverage, but I think to be successful and self-sustaining you would need 4-8x that number, otherwise you're reliant on having every single person patrolling every single day, without fail. It probably wouldn't hurt to start this up and give it a try on a one month trial, and that would also help to improve the visibility of the task of recent changes patrolling. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:09, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
Not sure about an expedition, but clearly having a coordination point where a patroller can ask for help with non-trivial cases would be really useful. For now, we have only Wikitravel:Welcome message#Business owners and Tourism professionals. Personally, I need a place to seek advice: like "In Goreme, two users are adding-removing two competing balloons providers--how to deal with them?". Or just drop a link to an edit, and expecting some advice on how to deal with it. And several clarifications on our policy in slippery slopes(?), like apartment agency criterias or nightlife aggregators. And yes, personally I need more and more templates for typical situations--I am not ready to invest time in writing a warning to a user by hand every time.
This will help me with patrolling within my watchlist; I am not ready to go beyond it patrolling all recent changes, however. As for "patrolled" flag, I don't believe it works at all now--at least before Wikitravel talk:Recent changes patrol#undoing revision should mark it as patrolled is fixed (to start with). --DenisYurkin 03:57, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

Article Status

Is there a review system to officially change an article's status? Or if we have built one up to the next Status' requirements do we just change the Article Status ourselves?Jtesla16 20:57, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

No process, just feel free to change it as you see fit. If you have a question about an article's status, try leaving a message on the talk page with a clear request for comment in the edit summary. --Peter Talk 22:23, 6 September 2008 (EDT)
I believe you should have given a firmer answer. Jtesla16 appears to be a new user, and is promoting unqualified articles. He also appears to be doing things without consensus (deleting information, in particular) gamweb 06:20, 7 September 2008 (EDT)
And note that star articles do have a promotion process; an article can't just be changed to Star status. =) LtPowers 10:10, 7 September 2008 (EDT)
Region Guide Status requires that "linked destinations to visit [be] (usable status or better)." Does this mean that only subregions and the 7-9 links under both Cities and Other Destinations need to be Usable, or that every city mentioned and linked in the Region's article needs to be usable? I'm led to believe this means only the recommended cities and destinations (not every city mentioned) because the requirements for a Region to be Usable state: "Has links to at least a couple of cities and/or other linked destinations (linked cities at usable status or better)."Jtesla16 19:43, 8 September 2008 (EDT)
Yes, I've always interpreted that to mean only the 9- regions, 9- cities, & 9- other destinations in the lists at the top of region articles. I still have yet to see a single guide-region, though, and would love to. And that other destination requirement is tough! --Peter Talk 19:52, 8 September 2008 (EDT)
Frankly, even that seems a bit draconian. It effectively means we won't see any (or at best very few) guide-level regions until we have a critical mass of usable-level cities, which is still a long ways off in my opinion. LtPowers 21:32, 8 September 2008 (EDT)
I don't know, I think I could write 4–5 usable city articles in a day if I really wanted to. Usable articles just need some prose for each section and 2-3 good listings per section. The regions and other destinations are much harder, IMO. I think the criteria are fair though, since a region article isn't worth much unless the destinations it contains are usable, in the literal sense. I think I might take up this challenge and hit the Maryland articles hard in the coming weeks. --Peter Talk 22:18, 8 September 2008 (EDT)
Better work fast, Florida is almost there. Jtesla16 22:30, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

Actually, the closest article on the site is the United States of America. Only 3 regions need to be elevated to usable status. See Talk:United_States_of_America#Push_for_Guide_status. This would be really cool to nail down. --Peter Talk 23:55, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

making tables


I am trying to find information on how to make tables such as time/schedule tables for ferries or trains and couldn't find any.

I tried to copy/paste from an existing table but trying to modify it looked too complicated. Thanx for help in advance.Paula 01:23, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

If the information is so complicated that it needs a table, think twice about whether it's worth maintaining, or if you can just link to the official site instead...
But basic wiki table format is like this (click Edit to see syntax): Jpatokal 02:25, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
header header header
column column column
column column column
are you assigned to me Jpatokal? you seem to follow me everywhere.
it's not the information that's too complicated, it's the table's editing syntax that is. i have already put in the links but they are all in Korean so I thought it would be helpful to have the basic times and destinations in English.
is there a link to table formating?

Sheki Star nomination

Sheki is attempting to move on up from mere "former OtBP" status to a full out star. Please drop by the starnom page and leave some praise, criticism, or even just partial criticism of one small section of the article would be appreciated, since people have worked hard on this one! --Peter Talk 10:15, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

A starnom for a destination in Azerbaijan? Wow! I never believed I can live to see anything in ex-USSR in starnoms... (Sorry, I never been there--and find it unconstructive to criticize without any experience with the destination) --DenisYurkin 17:58, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
No need for knowledge of the destination—star qualifications are mostly just manual of style issues, and I know you're familiar with those! Or you can just mention there that you like the article ;) --Peter Talk 18:05, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
I'd like to just jump in here quickly too in defense of people critiquing an unfamiliar destination. Sure, they can't verify that's it's "complete," but they can do everything else. Also, because of their local knowledge, authors may tend assume that something is obvious when it is not. Those unfamiliar with a destination can provide a valuable insight in into whether or not an article makes sense from their perspective — a perspective that is shared by the travelers themselves, who are also likely unfamiliar with the destination. Therefore, I think it's a useful "dry run" for the real readers, and imo, ideally all articles should be reviewed by a healthy mix of those that are very familiar with a destination, those that know a little about it, and those that know nothing at all. Asterix 14:47, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

External Link Glitch

It looks like the format for links added using the "add listing" tool has been changed and is now a glitch. "www." has been replaced with "", as if searching for an internal page.Lake Buena Vista#Eat is one example article. Jtesla16 19:13, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

No glitch, they just need "http://" before the rest of the url. It would be nice if the external link formatting automatically understood this w/o the extra code, but that's the way it is. --Peter Talk 20:19, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Not a comment per se ... more a plea for help !

I'm flying in to Hong Kong on the evening of the 16th September. From there I need to get through to Zhengzhou (Henan province - Mainland) as quickly as possible, for to start a basic Chinese language course. I've been told there's a train (T97B) from Jiu Long through to ZZ. (a charming 18 hour train trip !) Does anyone know what my options are, if any, or perhaps suggest a better way. Optimistically yours, P````

Please try asking on [10], that's what it's there for!
But the obvious option would be to fly. Both China Southern and Hong Kong Airlines fly direct from HK to Zhengzhou, or you could just cross the border to Shenzhen (there are even ferries direct from the airport) and take an even cheaper flight from there. Jpatokal 07:59, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

How do I add my ogg vorbis sound file to wikitravel?

How do I add my ogg vorbis sound file to the wikitravel phrase book?..I want to help!LingoSuccess 23:41, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

A audio is deprecated by our Image policy ("Other media" section). -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:49, 12 September 2008 (EDT)

Independent travel in Africa

Why are there so many people who advise against travelling independant in Africa? We just did buy a car in Kenya and travelled all over East Africa, with no problems at all.?? It's very easy!! --—The preceding comment was added by Mara85 (talkcontribs) .

Star/Diamond ratings

Do we have guidelines on whether or not to list star (or AAA Diamond) ratings in hotel listings? See, for example, this edit and this edit. LtPowers 11:28, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I do not know of any guideline on that; my suggestion would be not to use them, since they vary too much in different areas. An alternative might be to use them where we can be very specific like "rated 4 stars by Mobil Travel Guide", but there may be copyright issues with that, it would entail extra work, and I think there's a slippery slope leading to "rated by the Elbonian Ministry of Tourism". There's discussion of ratings at Hotels#Star_ratings and an article on Rating_systems. Pashley 00:28, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

Booking agancy link

It's needed to add (English interface provided) to the spam list. This link was added twice in Saint Petersburg (Russia). -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:50, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

PS: In Russia too. -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:54, 16 September 2008 (EDT) and Hyatt listings

User:'s rate of adding new Hyatt hotel listings (most seemingly copied from their web sites) is accelerating and I'm having trouble keeping up. Is everyone boycotting the site over the stupid ad kerfuffle? LtPowers 17:32, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

I'm not seeing a problem -- the listings need some detouting as usual, but otherwise look okay. -- Colin 17:48, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
In some corporate boardroom, somewhere...
Chairman of the Board: "You mean, we place ads all over their site for free"
Adguy: "Yep"
C: "And these guys, they give up their free time, to reformat our ads, as traveller information?"
A: "Thats right, we just post the promotional material we already developed for our website"
C: "So, we spend no time or money, provide no destination information, no research...."
A: ".... and these guys incorporate it into their guide free. But best of all, when they have finished, the travellers can't tell our promotion from real information.."
C: "Why would they do that? Are you sure you are not making this up?"
--Inas 20:14, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
Yes, it's the detouting I'm having trouble keeping up with. LtPowers 22:13, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
If any listing consists of material copied verbatim or almost so from another web site, shouldn't that listing just be deleted ipso facto? It's potentially a copyright violation, certainly inappropriate, and in my opinion ought to be specifically against policy if it isn't already. Sailsetter 11:22, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
Nah, I think just deleting the description (where the touting is) and keeping the basic info (address, phone #, etc.) will suffice. Then either they can come back with a more honest description or someone else can jump in with their own description. PerryPlanet 13:15, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
I don't agree with that. A listing with no description isn't of much value in itself and encourages other people to make similarly basic listings. (I think it is far more likely to just sit there than to be expanded by someone as the above assumes.) I say better to delete such things. Sailsetter 19:31, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
Are you suggesting we delete any listing without a description? That we require every listing to have a description? I don't think that's going to help. Like LtPowers said, there's good things about just including a listing, even if you have hardly anything (or nothing) to say about it. And yes, while it is more likely that the listing is going to sit without a description for a while, I don't think we should delete a listing on the presumption that no one is going to add that info. I mean, we don't delete the "Buy" section in an article because no one's gotten around to adding a shop yet. PerryPlanet 21:17, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
We are not yellow page, are we? Why include a hotel if we can't be serious about recommending it? --DenisYurkin 17:41, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
My own preference would be for an explicit policy that listing descriptions should be concise, but listings with no description at all would be first in line to be deleted if the number of listings got too many. Sailsetter 10:37, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
I'm fine with that, but I don't think "too many listings" is a problem we're faced with here in these articles with these Hyatt listings. PerryPlanet 15:12, 19 September 2008 (EDT)
Well there is some value in just knowing what's available. Maybe not a lot, but some. Even just including it tells the reader some information: namely, that this particular establishment is not a complete dump and has at least enough redeeming value to be listed. (Of course, that would be true of any Hyatt, but we've moved to generalities here.) LtPowers 19:48, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
If other hotels are sold out (pretty common in some resort areas if one just shows up) there is a great value to having just a phone number listing. Alingelb 19:25, 29 September 2008 (EAT)
We encourage business owners to add their hotel listings. See Wikitravel:Welcome, business owners. -- Colin 21:13, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
It seems to me extremely clear that extensive, uncredited quotes from other web sites shouldn't be put into Wikitravel, even by the owner of the other site. I think there ought to be a specific policy against this. If there isn't, where can I propose it? Sailsetter 19:29, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
We allow reuse of one's own work or work with permission. Now, normally we'd prefer the guy to say "yeah I'm from XYZ corporate and have permission to add this text", but it's pretty clear in cases like this that that is exactly what is going on. -- Colin 21:13, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
It seems to me there's a whole tangle of issues here. What if a destination article has extensive verbatim quotes from the Rough Guide or Frommers web site? Are we to assume that the quotes are done with permission, or without? What if a listing for a Four Seasons resort is a quote from the Four Seasons web site? Are we to assume that it was done with permission? Sure we can say people can quote their own stuff, but how do we know it's the owner who's doing the quoting? What if the destination page for, say, Rome, has extensive sites from the English language version of the official Italian government Rome tourist site? Are we to assume that the Italian government won't object? And then there's the larger principle issue of whether Wikitravel should to any extent be an anthology of passages from other web sites. A policy saying "no quotes" would at least simplify all these issues. Sailsetter 22:16, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

Using text from other sites is fine, as long as the text is PD or licensed under a license compatible with CC-by-SA 1.0. If the user copying text is the author, he/she/it should leave a clarifying message on the talk page of the article to which he/she/it is adding the text. If none of these criteria are met, I say feel free to revert or delete as the situation needs.

Regarding this case, if a user comes along and adds the same message to countless pages, even if it's not copied from another website, that's clearly touting, and I would be liable to revert it. It might be ideal to instead delete the touting text and save the listing, but that takes 3-4x the time to revert, so that's not always feasible. So "clean up" > "revert" > "leave mess." --Peter Talk 22:29, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

I see two problems with the above. 1) If I notice that a Wikitravel page has quoted text from another website, should it be incumbent on me as an ordinary contributor to try to figure out the licensing situation before deleting it? If that's the case, in practice no typical user is ever going to take the trouble. And 2) I have never, ever, on any of the very numerous Wikitravel talk pages I've looked at, seen a message from someone saying "I was quoting my own web site's text." Sailsetter 22:36, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
If you've already figured out what website the text comes from, it should be immediately apparent whether it is properly licensed. If it is CC-by or CC-by-SA, it will say so prominently on the website (as does ours). It is PD only if it says so prominently, or is the work of the U.S. Federal Government. And yes, those talk page messages are rare, but I have seen a few. --Peter Talk 10:58, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

I notice that on Wikitravel Shared it says the following:

Can I copy text to Wikitravel from other sites? No. That is, unless you are the original author of the text, or the text on the other website is either Public Domain or has been explicitly licensed as compatible with Creative Commons Attribution/Attribution-ShareAlike 1.0.

I take this to mean that text on a Wikitravel page which is 1) copied verbatim or nearly verbatim from another web site which is 2) not clearly in the public domain and without 3) being annotated on the Talk page by the person adding it saying they are the owner, may be deleted. (I still think though that the owner's permission shouldn't justify such quoting.) Sailsetter 19:38, 24 September 2008 (EDT)

At the end of the day, this is really not your or even Wikitravel's problem. Like wikis everywhere, we assume good faith, and if IB gets a DMCA takedown from the copyright holder, they're still "safe harbored" under [Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act OCILLA] as long as they nuke the content then. Jpatokal 13:12, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Adding a photo to an article - HELP !

I am new to Wikitravel and to wiki in general. I have looked high and low (and in between) on Wikitravel and on Shared and on Google and I cannot find anywhere a step by step, user-friendly plain English guide for how to get one of my photos which is already on Shared into an article. If I overlooked it, I apologize in advance. I have figured out that I can copy the script for a photo already in an article, replace the photo's name with the name of my photo and then paste that revised script somplace in the Article. This method works but it is not exactly elegant. thanks. 18:27, 19 September 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel:How to add an image is a good place to look, but it's really quite simple, just copy this: [[Image:filename of image|thumb|description of image]] and insert the image name from Shared and the description for the image. And then use that page I linked to figure out further details, like figuring out which side of the page you want it on, how big you want to image to be, etc. PerryPlanet 20:36, 19 September 2008 (EDT)
If you want elegant, you will need to create a user and log in. Once you have done that, click on preferences in the top right, select the editing tab and enable Show edit toolbar (JavaScript). This will give you a toolbar that simplify a couple of functions, one of them being the ability to add an image. Unfortunately our version does not cater for the additional image options. Example on the right. --Nick 02:21, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
  • I'm having problems adding two particular photos to a wikitravel page. I've used the correct format, but instead of the thumbnail appearing, only the title of the photo, and it's description appear. I've tried re-saving these photos, I haven't had any problems before. [[Image:Monet_House.JPG|thumb|250px|Monet's House, Giverny]] "Spircle 16:57, 13 October 2008 (EDT)"

I have already uploaded the image file to Wikitravel shared, I can view it when I look at my contributions, but linking it to a wikitravel site won't work. I've re-saved and re-uploaded it a couple of times, but this hasn't worked. The photo was a digital image taken in 2001, I can't see anything unusual about the format that the file is in. Also, what is bugging me is that the files appear correctly in the gallery of recent images. Any suggestions would be welcome. Spircle 09:25, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Might the problem be related to this problem? Tarr3n 07:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
Monet's House, Giverny
The wiki is case sensitive, try [[Image:Monet_House.jpg|thumb|250px|Monet's House, Giverny]] rather than [[Image:Monet_House.JPG|thumb|250px|Monet's House, Giverny]], note the lowercase jpg. You image displays on the right next to this comment. --Nick 08:26, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Eureka!!! It worked! Many thanksSpircle 08:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Glad to be of help. You might want to add a license tag to Image:Monet_-_The_Waterlily_Pond_sm.jpg to avoid it being deleted. Photos of paintings may violate copyright, but in this case I think copyright has already expired (70+ years since his death) so it should be in the public domain. Adding {{PD}} to the image description page should do it. --Nick 09:15, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Yoho National Park

Can an admin have a look at this page. Seems to be a lot of vandalism going on, including an entire text deletion. Not sure which versionis best to roll back to, so seeking advice.Nrms 13:42, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

It looks like it's been taken care of so far, all deletions have been reverted by Dguillaime, but I've watchlisted it and will keep an eye out – cacahuate talk 14:45, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

Exchange Rates Policy?

I think we should adopt a policy to omit exchange rates from country articles with floating currencies. If there is a peg to the USD, or Euro, or if the currency is stable against another currency, then it is worth mentioning. Otherwise, the information is invariably going to be out of date and misleading. Especially in today's economic climate where EUR/USD exchange rates are changing by percentage points intra-day. There is enough stuff to update without doing exchange updates daily. The alternative would be some automated process to import the information where required, but wikitravel has other strengths, and there are plenty of exchange rate sites.. I know this information is in other printed travel guides, but it is wrong there too.. --Inas 19:24, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

I'd support that – cacahuate talk 19:55, 22 September 2008 (EDT)
I'm not against omitting exchange rates but I do know that it is useful to have some idea of the rate when looking at listings. Often, when I visit a country for the first time, I have no clue, not even a ballpark figure, for what the rate looks like. (That said, sometimes a month can hit the rate right out of the ballpark!) --Wandering 22:41, 22 September 2008 (EDT)
I'd vote with Wandering. My suggestion is to put up the exchange rate in the Quick Facts box at a country level. Given the current financial turmoil, this may not be perfectly accurate - but is more likely to get updated than if the exchange rate is buried deep inside some article - as in the case with the India page --Pradyot
I don't think the exchange rate should be totally dropped, as a ballpark exchange rate, tagged with a date, is useful. That is, the Japan article should say "As of 2008, the yen trades at around 100 to the dollar", not "At 27 seconds past 8:31 AM on October 6th, 2008, the mid-market interbank FX yen rate in New York for quantities below 1 billion was 106.1234566789 to the US dollar". The vast majority of the world's currencies are kinda-sorta stable (that is, the number of zeroes is likely to be the same next year as this year), and for the rest we should note that they aren't.
But I think the best place to put them is where they're right now, namely the Buy section, since that's where the country's currency is discussed.
Otherwise we'll just end up with exchange rates in both. Jpatokal 02:31, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
I rather like seeing the exchange rates. Every traveler knows that they fluctuate and that they should find an official source for the latest figures, but it is handy to have an indication of what to expect in the country article, even if that is out by 15% or so. It might however be a good idea to always date the exchange rates, that way a reader will immediately know how much the quoted figures can be trusted. Obviously, for countries like Zimbabwe quoting figures simply does not make sense and it is sufficient to state that the economy is FUBAR and the traveler should check the exchange rate prior to any transaction. --Nick 09:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

New Server Transition Begins, September 24th

The tech team will begin the transition to the new server setup today. This will create some disruption in service to the site. Beginning immediately, the Search function will be switched to a back-up version that, some may notice, is less robust. Many of you may not notice a difference at all. This is a temporary switch. Full search will be restored after the transition to the new servers. Once the work on search is completed, which should be a matter of hours, the transfer of the site will begin. At that point, Wikitravel will become "read-only", meaning you won't be able to make edits. A message will appear on edit pages. This "read only" period will last for about three hours. When the site comes up on the new servers, the message will disappear and you will be able to edit again. JuCo 16:57, 24 September 2008 (EDT)

Is the transition already finished? -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:06, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
New site architecture went live at roughly 10:20 last night Los Angeles time KevinSours 10:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
Please report bugs in Wikitravel Shared as you encounter them. Thank you for your patience during the upgrade. We're very excited about what the new setup will mean for greater stability and scalability moving forward! JuCo 13:34, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Image permissions

I've read everything I can find on Wikitravel and Wikitravel shared about images, and I'm still totally confused about how do answer the question: "How do I know I have permission to put an image on a Wikitravel page?" To start, can someone at least answer this question: "If I find an image on shared, does that mean I can put it on Wikitravel without worrying about permissions?" Sailsetter 10:23, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

If it's your own picture or on Wikitravel Shared, it's definitely OK to use anywhere on Wikitravel. Jpatokal 12:57, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
Caveat: if it's your own picture, but it shows a copyrighted document or copyrighted image, it may not be okay to use. LtPowers 10:02, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
Thanks. Another question: is there a policy about using images from Wikimedia Commons? Can anything there just be used, or only certain types of licenses? And if the latter, is there a listing somewhere of specifically what type of licenses Wikimedia commons images have to have if they can be freely used on Wikitravel? Sailsetter 11:01, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Right now, we can only accept images from Commons that are in the public domain or are licensed CC-by-sa version 1.0. Other versions of the CC-by-sa license are not backwards compatible with 1.0, which is what we use. I'm still holding out hope for updating our license, but that seems a long ways off yet. LtPowers 19:33, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

We just have one image policy... The only images that can be used on this site are:

  • Ones you've taken yourself, and are releasing under a Creative Commons license or into the Public Domain
  • Images that are already licensed under Creative Commons, and that are available to be modified and for commercial use (ones that say "NC" are not compatible.

So, if you find images on Commons that satisfy that, as many do, then yes, they are compatible here... but GFDL only is NOT compatible here, so many images on commons are not. You have to look at each image – cacahuate talk 20:51, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

The list of compatible licensing is here. --Peter Talk 23:07, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
So does that mean that only Wikimedia commons licenses in the section of that page beginning Licenses-There are a bunch of available licenses for files on Wikitravel, and they are a bit confusing. Here's a breakdown ... can be used on Wikitravel period end of story? For instance GNU Free Documentation Licenses aren't on that list, so that means that Commons images with that license can't be used on Wikitrave, right? Sailsetter 16:11, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
Right, that list is comprehensive—no other licenses are compatible with our site. GFDL licenses are not compatible, unfortunately, with Creative Commons licensing. That's why we can't copy text from Wikipedia. There are people trying to make the licenses compatible, but we're not there yet. (But we'd need to upgrade our site's licensing from 1.0 to any later version to take advantage of new compatibility anyway.) We can only use images that have GFDL licensing if they cross license the image with both GFDL and CC licenses. --Peter Talk 17:02, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

OK, so the above discussion indicates, if I've got it right, that images from Wikimedia commons can be put on Wikitravel if they are licensed as public domain or CCA-SA 1.0. The next question is, how do you do it? I've read all the documentation on this I can find, and the more I read it the more confusing it seems. Do you need to first copy the image from Wikimedia Commons and then Upload it to Wikimedia Shared? I can't find any explicit statement that you should do this, but it finally dawned on me that some things in the instructions only seemed to make sense if that was so. If that's not what you're supposed to do, then what are you supposed to do? (And as I say I've read the Helps on adding and uploading images and it still doesn't tell me the basic thing I need to know -- how do I get it on Wikitravel. Or maybe it does tell me, but it doesn't say explicitly any where I've found, "To put an image from Wikimedia Commons on the San Francisco page of Wikitravel, this is what you do ..." Sailsetter 15:00, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

You're not limited to version 1.0, and you can also use CC-by in addition to CC-by-SA. Easy version: if a license is provided in the pulldown menu on the download form on Wikitravel Shared, then you can use that license. To get a commons image over to here, it's necessary to download the image first, then upload it via Shared. To fill in the necessary description details, click the link on the upload form next to "photos from Wikimedia Commons," then fill out those fields. I really wish there were a faster, simpler way to do this, but that's the best we have for now! --Peter Talk 15:50, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

Shared down?

Am I the only one who can't access Shared? It's been more than a full day now. --Peter Talk 15:21, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

I'm able to access Shared without problems. In what way can't you access it? Aude 15:32, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
I can't load any pages whatsoever. Perhaps IB decided they'd rather not hear from me anymore? --Peter Talk 16:18, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
I don't know enough technical details, but guess it has to do with moving the servers. Could be an issue with browser caching pages? Can you access other language versions? Also, all the images come from shared. Can you see images on the English Wikitravel site? I'm not sure what else to suggest. Aude 16:40, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Definitely strange, it was fine for me all day yesterday and today. Have you tried clearing your browser's cache? – cacahuate talk 16:43, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
Clearing my browser cache didn't help. I was able to access shared right now using IE instead of Firefox, but as soon as I logged in and tried to submit a page edit, I lost my ability to access the site completely in IE as well. And yes, I can access all language versions. --Peter Talk 17:40, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

I managed to access the site by clearing all my cookies, but that only worked until I did anything on the site, then I'm locked out again. In firefox, I get to the message "Waiting for" in the status bar immediately, then nothing happens as the page fails to load. Can others view shared:Multilingual statistics? No matter what I do I haven't been able to load it. --Peter Talk 23:10, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

I believe this problem has been resolved KevinSours 15:00, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
A lot of the pictures from Shared don't seem to be pulling through to Wikitravel articles. For example Tywyn - when I logged in earlier the images were showing. I made some edits to the page, which presumably refreshes everything, and now none of the images are showing. I logged in to Shared, to see if I could view the images there, and I just see little white rectangles when I click onto the image pages. For example shared:Image:Bird_Rock.jpg. In answer to Peter's question, I can see shared:Multilingual statistics Tarr3n 08:29, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
I too can see shared:Multilingual statistics, but the up/down arrow images have been replaced by links to the images. Jnich99 08:55, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
That's what I'm seeing too. Didn't really look at the page in any detail when I checked before that I could see it. The "missing" images from articles that I mentioned above also have been replaced by links, but even clicking on the link doesn't actually bring up the image. Tarr3n 10:17, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
It's not just images from shared. Look at Walt Disney World Resort. The lead image is hosted locally. Earlier today it was showing correctly on the image description page, but now it is not. Looks like a problem with the thumbnail generation code across Wikitravel. LtPowers 11:39, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
Inshallah, we'll have this serious problem fixed by the end of the day. --Peter Talk 11:53, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
Purging the page with non-displaying images seems to fix it in most cases (click edit, change action=edit in the url to action=purge and press enter). Does not work in the case of Tywyn however, seems there is some image format support missing on the server and it can't resize that specific image. --Nick 16:07, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
I've also noticed I sometimes get what appear to be earlier versions of a page -- and it's not a matter of my browser cache, because it happens after I bring up the browser, clear the cache, and then go to Wikitravel. They seem to be actually earlier versions of files that Wikitravel is giving me. Using the browser refresh function gets the most recent page. Sailsetter 17:19, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
I've also experienced the same issue as Sailsetter mentions above. Refreshing the browser seems to work. However I have done this then come back to the same page later and seen the old version of the page again. Odd.
With regards to the problem with images, Tywyn has several images, only 2 of which are not working. I've checked Shared and they seem to be displaying fine, for example shared:Image:Craig-yr-Aderyn_in_snow.jpg which should be the main pic on Tywyn. Dolgellau seems to have the same problem, including one of the images which is also used in Tywyn and Snowdonia and is displaying fine on both of those pages (shared:Image:Llyn_Cau_From_Above.jpg). The main pic on Snowdonia is one of the images which isn't working in Tywyn (shared:Image:Boats_on_Talyllyn.jpg). Tarr3n 05:43, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Tywyn, Snowdonia, and Dolgellau should now all be fixed, although you might have to refresh your browser window. The fix is to click on the little icon at the bottom of the thumbnail, then add ?action=purge to the resulting url. Then refresh the image page. Then refresh the article in question. An obnoxious bug no doubt, but it has been fixed—just some images will still have the problem until their cache is purged. --Peter Talk 10:00, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for posting that fix Peter. The problem seems to have affected quite a few images across the site. I've been fixing them as and when I find them, but it is an obnoxious bug as you say. Tarr3n 05:05, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

I'm still getting this all over the place, and I'm unable to fix it when the image is on Shared. Eg. Image:Higashi_Shima_Matcha.JPG gets "Error creating thumbnail", and if I try to purge it, I just get "This page does not exist". The actual pic on Shared is fine. What to do? Jpatokal 05:12, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

I've also got that "image doesn't exist" message after purging the cache. I find that if I hit refresh, it then displays it OK, and the thumbnail is working in the relevant article as well. The image you mention is working for me now.
This problem is a major pain though - like I said above I've been fixing it as and when I find it but there must be hundreds if not thousands of instances that need to be repaired. Would it be worthwhile putting a link to this discussion on the Main Page or Project Page so that everyone is aware that a fix exists? Otherwise I think there's a chance of people coming along and finding an image not working and helpfully uploading a new one to replace it. Tarr3n 09:04, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

Taxi numbers

Living in Morogoro, Tanzania, if one does not own a vehicle, it's quite useful to have the phone numbers of a few local taxis handy. In fact it's the only option during the evening, when public transit doesn't run, and in many other situations besides. I'm sure this is true of many other towns & cities. So, this would quite legitimately be useful information for travelers.

However, taxis here don't have central dispatch or consolidation of any kind - you need to get the cell phone number of every taxi you intend to use. It seems quite strange to put someone's primary cell phone number on a public web page, even if they are a business. Also, I was thinking that because there are literally hundreds of taxis in the area, it could get to be quite ungainly to list them on the main page. That led me to wondering if there is a precedent for this situation.

Thanks, - Albert 19:25, 29 September 2008 (EAT)

I vaguely recall some discussion along these lines for the Siem Reap (Cambodia) article, about whether individual bike cabbies can/should be recommended, and the consensus was eventually "no" -- this would lead to too much touting.
However, a place like Morogoro sounds sufficient off the beaten path that this should not be a problem. So, yes, I think it's fine to list the names and numbers of good cabbies. Jpatokal 13:25, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
The one downside of listing a host of numbers for individual cab drivers is that the list will quite soon be incorrect as cabbies change numbers or just go into another business. --Wandering 11:01, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

With children

It would be convenient to categorise pages "XXX City with children". Also, have a look at the related project (only in French yet). --Josce, 16:31, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Agreed. here's a list of them. Perhaps we could group them together in a section under Travel topics? --Peter Talk 17:34, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
Or perhaps this?,GGGL:2006-45,GGGL:en&filter=0?
--DenisYurkin 11:47, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

Animated gifs?

I have temporarily added an animated gif to the Route 66 itinerary article and am looking for some feedback on it.

  • Does anyone see specific problems with the use of animated gifs?
  • Does it look acceptable and of value or did the static map work better?

__Nick 15:51, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

I dislike it because 1) as a matter of personal taste I hate web sites that flash and wriggle and move, 2) as a practical matter I don't see any reason at all why there should be a moving line to trace Route 66 rather than a static one, and 3) as a matter of policy, I think it's inconsistent with Wikitravel's goal to be useful as printout. Sailsetter 19:48, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

It's not working well for me. I had to reload a few times to get it to show up, then to start animating. It still only gets as far as Albuquerque before it resets itself, and on the image description page I get "Error creating thumbnail." I'm not against the very concept of animated gifs, but this one seems gratuitous (nothing a static image can't show). LtPowers 10:00, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Agreed -- animated GIFs are rarely, if ever, of value in a travel guide. Routes can be perfectly well represented on a static map. Jpatokal 12:42, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Thank you all for your feedback. I've reverted it back to the old map --Nick 14:06, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for trying a new idea, Nick. Innovation is key. LtPowers 20:46, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
Agree we don't need it, but still a fun idea! – cacahuate talk 00:35, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

Missing images...

Am I the only one get red x's in our two front page articles San Diego and Jakar ?Sertmann 22:21, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

I don't think so. And it's not just the front page. I believe this is the same problem being discussed above... PerryPlanet 23:44, 3 October 2008 (EDT)


I wanted to ask the Wikitravel community for a little help with a wiki that I'm trying to get launched - Wikimmigrant. I'm hoping that Wikimmigrant can complement Wikitravel by providing detailed immigration/visa rules and regulations for every nation on Earth and, possibly one day - Mars. A detailed account of explaining the application process and visa fees for every nation is obviously going to fall way outside the scope of Wikitravel's goals to provide relevant travel information, but for those of us in the world that want to up and go to Poland, Canada, Singapore, Mongolia, or India from the comfort (or discomfort - that's why Wikimmigrant will help explain obtaining refugee status in different countries) of our native lands, we should have a way to access that information in a central place.

Yes, there are expat websites that can give a person information and guidance on obtaining a work or residence permit for Country A, but, as we know with travel information, information can change quickly. So, if the parliament of Country A changes it's immigration laws, then the MediaWiki software will allow anyone with that knowledge to update Wikimmigrant and that information would be instantaneously available to the world, which is not true for many expat websites.

Anyhow, I could specifically use help developing policies, templates, and articles. I'd especially appreciate any help from someone with knowledge of CSS to design a spiffy main page. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 21:42, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Problem with redirects

I just now noticed that there is a problem with redirect pages all over the website, namely, in that the redirect page displays an earlier version of the cache page. Take "Disneyland" (the cache) versus "Disneyland Resort" (the redirect), for example. Jonathan 784 18:31, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

Actually, you noticed it several days ago. =) Use the solution I put on your talk page, if I wrote it intelligibly enough. LtPowers 19:55, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

Edit text appended to name of town

Cannes France has a paragraph of text that belongs in the opening "understand" but it seems to be appended to the town name and has no "edit" function with it. Its real messy and does not follow the required style. How can I get rid of it? Very Newbie but trying!

(Andrew 13:50, 10 October 2008 (EDT))

At the very top of the page, just above the "Cannes" title, there are a series of tabs. The one marked "edit" will allow you to edit the entire contents of an article, inclduing the messed up text.
The inline edit will do individual sections if you only need to change a small section. If you are doing wholesale changes to many sections, it is easier to use the edit tab at the top and do all the edits at once rather doing individual sections.
Epolk 15:39, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Brilliant! So obvious with hindsight - thanks! (Andrew 13:44, 11 October 2008 (EDT))

Copenhagen/Østerbro Star nomination

I'm hard at work giving Copenhagen a huge notch up in the scale, hoping to make it DoTM when it hosts the World Outgames in August - And i think my home district, has ended up quite good. So please head over and comment on the Star Nominations page - and while you're at it Sheki needs a few more comments too. Cheers Sertmann 23:53, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Picture from Wikimedia Commons

I realize there was a recent article adressing this, but I'm still confused (and didn't want my comment lost/not seen in that long section). So my question is, if it is a picture found in the Wikimedia commons, it is ok to use? I would like to use this [11] image with a GFDL permission. I would like to use it in the Nagorno-Karabakh article to show which parts are close to the front line (and thus more dangerous to travel). If the file type is not compatible(I think that's what someone said in the section on adding pictures), I can easily take a screenshot and cut out the image...but would that be ok? Thanks for the advice! AHeneen 18:32, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Unfortunately no, we cannot use that image, because it is not licensed under a creative commons license (e.g., CC-by-SA). GFDL is not compatible with Wikitravel's licensing. Basically, you can upload images to Shared if your are the author, or if they have licensing that appears in the pulldown menu on the upload screen. And more detailed information is at shared:How to upload files.
I'm sorry to hear that this is confusing so many of our contributors. Maybe we should write some sort of a quick version on image licensing? --Peter Talk 21:20, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
Also, especially when it comes to pictures on Commons, it may be worthwhile to send a message to the file's author (on Commons or on Wikipedia or by e-mail or whatever) asking if they'd be willing to multi-license a GFDLed image as CC-by-SA. GFDL is not a very good license for images anyway; it was originally designed for documentation. Multi-licensing it as CC-by-SA is much more re-use friendly. LtPowers 08:09, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
I think the previous discussion under Image Licensing made it as clear as it can be. I suggest incorporating it into the documentation. I also think it would be better to have one documentation section giving all the information any contributor needs to know about image licensing, uploading, and policies, and which doesn't make any assumptions about what the contributor already knows (example: don't assume that contributors know that to use images on Wikitravel they have to upload them to Wikitravel Shared first). Sailsetter 10:29, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, a basic guide here on :en with links to the relevant articles on shared might be a very good idea. --Peter Talk 13:58, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

Anyone else having trouble staying logged in?

I don't know if this is just me, but everytime I've gone to Wikitravel in the past couple of weeks I have to log in, despite the fact that I am using my computer and keep checking the "remember me" box. And after I do log in, the bar at the top doesn't acknowledge that I am logged in (it says "My page" and "log in / create account" instead of "PerryPlanet" and "log out"). PerryPlanet 10:44, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

I had noticed that I'm having to log in more frequently than I used to. In fact just noticed that at the moment I still have a "log in/create account" link, but if I click on the other links up there, I do get my personalised pages. You are not alone! Nrms 10:54, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
No, im having huge problems as well. Sertmann 11:26, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
I have a "log in/create account" link now, but I'm logged in. I don't have this problem on ja: and shared:. -- Tatata7 11:37, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
shared:Tech:New_server_bugs#Logged_in_status_acting_up --Peter Talk 12:18, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Incredible India

Do we really need an identical listing for this travel agency in 20 or more articles? I'm thinking not. Texugo 04:02, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

One of the admins has seen to this now. Just noticed there is still one reference on the Mumbai page. Will keep an eye out for more popping up. Nrms 06:47, 20 October 2008 (EDT)


I just posted for the first time to Wikitravel, but cannot see my posting. Should I see my posting immediately? How often do updates take place? Thanks.Cousin Scott 12:43, 18 October 2008 (EDT)Cousin Scott

yeah, it should show immediately - but sometimes you have to hit F5 on the page, for it to appear. Sertmann 13:21, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for the help. I still can't get the posting to publish. Maybe, Wikitravel is having trouble. Thanks, again!
Hey, I checked, and your entry does show for me - i don't know exactly what your problem is, but I've heard of others having problems like this before - maybe it's a browser related issue? Anyone a warm welcome to wiki travel mate ;)

Where is the community?

OK, this maybe be a bit provocative and cocky, for someone who has been here a short time as i have. But hey, bear with me - I'm new :). While I've become absolutely enchanted by the scope of this site, and really impressed by the daily number of contributions. I'm quite disappointed with the community involvement of the place - it seems a bit like a large number of "anonymous" contributors, and very little soul - with the exception of few Sysops, and in particular Peter, whom i think is absolutely amazing, and it was his praise that made me want to do continuous contributions here.

Please note that I'm not targeting anyone (not least the janitors - it's obviously working, since the articles are all nice and clean). And granted, I'm a bit disappointed by the fact that my own star nomination which I worked really hard on, didn't get any more comments after two weeks. But still - the collaboration of the month is not working - which it really should at a place like this. I've been trying to patrol new edits - but can't keep up, because very few users seem to be chipping in doing this, and what about the welcomes? - which i think is one of the best things about this place (I tried doing some myself for the first time today). Did we loose all the fiery souls with the IB take over?

Come on people, you don't need to have sysop rights, to chip in on the janitorial work around here, look around the talk pages, welcome new users, join in on the different expeditions, talk in the pub, contribute with your opinion in the Destination of the month, of the beaten patch and star nominations sections - Make a name for yourself - please help give the place some soul and grow the community :)

- Stefan (Sertmann 20:14, 18 October 2008 (EDT))

Pennsylvania School Projects

Just a heads up. Some teacher in Pennsylvania has apparently sent all her students here to each to their own article on a small town in Pennsylvania. I've been trying to keep up with style edits and removing copyrighted material, but it's a bit overwhelming. Could use some help. Texugo 01:36, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Nice concept though! :) I'll try to keep a look out once a day or so... Sertmann 06:44, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Is that why I just had to revert our Pennsylvania region names and delete a bunch of related copyvios from VisitPA? LtPowers 14:14, 20 October 2008 (EDT)


Semi-protection may be in order here until whoever keeps vandalizing it (from a plethora of IP addresses) gets bored. I'd do it myself but my admin buttons aren't showing. LtPowers 14:14, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Yet another ridiculous problem in the wake of the disastrous server move weeks ago. You'll see your sysop buttons if you use IE instead of firefox, but you can also access the functions through the history tab. Click history, then replace the word "history" in the resulting url with "protect" or "delete" and voila. What's more frustrating is trying to move pages... --Peter Talk 15:43, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Well I wasn't going to point any fingers and was happy to let someone else handle it until the login issue was resolved. Nonetheless, I fired up IE and took care of it. Obviously not an ideal long-term solution, though. LtPowers 17:16, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Talk:Florida isn't the only one, the same vandal(s?) have hit San Francisco/SoMa, the Chicago skyline guide, and Soma Bay. I dunno about the others, but San Francisco/SoMa I think could use some protection if anyone can access their admin features, because it's been the target of repeated vandalism. PerryPlanet 19:01, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Done, done, and done. This is shaping up to be a potential problem, though, if this guy is willing to put his ads up on any old page. I was hoping it was just a Florida thing. Blocking the IPs won't help because they change so frequently. LtPowers 08:55, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
I know this is probably gonna come out the wrong way, but i work at a insurance company, and until January 1st, often have long vacant night shifts where i just sit around and wait for a fire or flooding to happen. I'd be happy happy to jump in and help with the admin stuff, and have my rights revoked when the FF bug is resolved (we use IE6 at work). I know this is far from ideal since I obviously don't really have complete grasp of the inner workings of this place yet, but I just felt like i wanted to extend the offer if you guys are feeling overworked - and in any case I'll just try to keep up with normal access stuff at the recent changes page Sertmann 20:21, 21 October 2008 (EDT)


How come I never get replies to what I ask in the Talk:Edmonton (discussion page)? I really did want to know what people think. I see other locations get quick replies. I just don't get it. Maybe someone could help. Thank-you:). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edmontonenthusiast (talkcontribs) 18:59, 2008 October 21

Heya, It all mostly depends whether there are other regular contributors to the destination you're writing about, and then a lot of these discussions and comments starts somewhere else, like people asking a question on another users talk page - so if you just write a comment on a talk page, you'd just have to wait to someone pops by. So don't feel bad, it's nothing personal ;-) If there is something needing attention, it's best to ask here, or on the appropriate project page. Wikitravel is a very large place, with a lot less users than say wikipedia. A Canadian should know everything about thinly populated, large places.
That being said, this was exactly the type of thing i was writing about, in my rant above - this place does need more of a community. Sertmann 23:12, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
In my experience editing the Vancouver, British Columbia, and Calgary pages, there aren't many others actively involved in these parts of Wikitravel. Look at Talk:Calgary: I proposed some changes months ago, and didn't get replies either. Posting here, or in Talk:Alberta, might collect some fellow travellers. I tell you what, I'll start watching Edmonton, so that you'll have someone to talk to. (By the way, when you post here or to a talk page, end with four tildes ~~~~, and the system will substitute your name and the date.) JimDeLaHunt 03:05, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Hi guys, thank you very much for your comments.

Sertman: Thankyou very much, I mean, you were very helpful. Although it does kindof suck that it takes so long. Yeah, I know about thin pop. and large places, heh, I mean it is wierd to Americans but in Canada it's mostly large populations concetrated in the 10 largest and then everything else is in tiny remote places (for the most part, exceptions like Southern Ont., Edm-Cal Corridor, and Ottawa-Montréal are some examples). But anyways, yeah, thanks for your help.

JimDeLaHunt: Oh that must suck, Calgary's a beautiful metropolis, you've probably seen me edit a bit there, too:). I will start looking at the Calgary talk page more often too, asd you will for Edmonton.

Thanks guys! -Edmontonenthusiast!

How Much Longer?

Hi there! I was wondering if you could check the Edmonton section a little bit, maybe just skim/read a bit? And could you tell me how much longer Edmonton will need to go before it gets "huge city". I know aboyt the 32,000 thing, but can't it get that beforehand? I was just wondering how much longer and how muchmor information and how much is already used of space? 22,000? 32,000? What? thank-you! Also am I doing a good job?

Edmontonenthusiast 19:43, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

Hey - great work! - if you are meaning to districtify it, it's pretty much there i think, but I have to warn you - it's a huge pile of work! :o) Someone did it to Copenhagen before I arrived here, and it's sort of an endless struggle getting them all up to guide status. And in a lot of cities the districts have become half arsed work, which sucks - personally i'd rather prefer a well written large one-page article like Stockholm to something like the current state of Rome (no offense anyone) Sertmann 20:11, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
Thankyou for such a nice comment! You're right, it is hard work! I could probably get some other help, though, but as I am doing already, I'll probably have to do it mostly myself. I think what I will do is start writting down information in Microsoft Word and then after I get enough information, I'll start districtifying/huge citying it. Hmm...thankyou, you're points are well-taken!:) Any other comments? Edmontonenthusiast 20:21, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

Now you stay quiet...

The map of Korea was made for me at my request, so there is no copyright infringement. Now I've asked administrators (Jpkotai[sic] and CJensen[sic])how to proceed in proving this but strangely it is only when I can improve the page do I not get a rapid response. It's been 3 days and I have yet to be told how to "unviolate" the map. [12]. Again, what do you need? and where should I post it?Paula 20:48, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

I probably can't help, because I'm asking questions about maps (Talk:Edmonton). But I will tell you I 'gree in the fact that it does sometimes take longer to get a respones. I know it's silly. Please, guys, reply to PAULAS specific issuue! Edmontonenthusiast 20:53, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Paula, you need to get actual permission from the copyright owner to release the map under the terms of the Creative-Commons Share-Alike license. Copyright is a nasty area of the law where the Copyright owner is presumed to own and reserve all rights except when he Very Explicitly makes a rights grant. Coincidentally, this is exactly what I said in my vote for deletion, though I happened to use fewer words. -- Colin 21:23, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

A question.... It's about maps...

Hey, I was wondering if it's ok to make a map in Photoshop Elements, and then save it as a PNG? Is that ok?

Edmontonenthusiast 23:44, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

You want something that creates an SVG file... we then make a png version to use in articles, but we also upload the SVG, which allows for the community to work on maps together and update them when needed. Your time will definitely be better spent and your map will last longer if it's made as an SVG. The latest version Inkscape (free) is the preferred way to create them, but Illustrator I think also would work fine. I'm glad you're showing an interest in maps, it's definitely a bit of a learning curve involved, but it's rewarding once you get the hang of it! – cacahuate talk 02:13, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
So basically...I need to make two files-SVG and PNG? Can I make SVG in PS Elements? Also how do you upload two...hjust seperatelyt? Thamks! Edmontonenthusiast 12:14, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Technically, it doesn't have to be an SVG; it could be any semi-portable vector graphics format. Unless I'm misunderstanding the policy. Photoshop is a raster graphics program, though, so it's not the best choice for creating maps. A vector graphics program, such as Inkscape, allows the creation of high-quality images at any scale. If you find some of this jargon confusing, you can read up a bit on it here. LtPowers 13:50, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
I should NOT have to install programs to make maps. I don't get why I can't use Photoshop Elements. To me it's absurd. But, then again, I may be missing something. Please, do explain. And am I right, I need to make a PNG and SVG format and upload the two? And, also, can you make SVG format in PS Elements? THANKS! Edmontonenthusiast 13:54, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Also, where do you get, LNKSCAPE? Edmontonenthusiast 13:55, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
You can create maps in any format you wish, including png's, but the community here on Wikitravel, prefer to have them in svg format - as the work almost ends up in higher quality, and other users can pick up on your work and improve it if they wish (which is the whole point of a wiki), you can't do that with a file created in Adobe Elements. Inkscape is available for free here[13] and illustrator (expensive) here[14] - Sertmann 16:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Protected Status?

So I would like to know if, like on Wikipedia, protected and semi-protected status is available. I ask this, because there has been a bit (not obnoxiously excessive...but a bit) of touting on the Orlando article from people who are not Wikitravellers (ie edits list their IP address). I fully understand how Wikitravel is a wiki and thus everyone can contribute, but I would like to keep things in a consistent format and IP-address-people seem to do nothing but tout and what I'm about to describe. For those who know about "Orlando"'s more like a small metropolis than a city (for instance the city proper has 220k residents but the metropolis has 1.2-1.5mil residents...not including far-flung suburbs, but just the contiguous urban area) such that a lot of people keep adding locations/attractions which are outside the city proper (myself included). If those of us Wikitravellers want to clean up the page and bring it to Wikitravel standards, we don't want businesses and naive IP-address-people to come along and add stuff outside the city proper. If protection is available, semi-protection would be nice...and if not, are there any plans/desire to add such? Oh, and to those who view the page...I have yet to clean up the touting, since it only came to my attention today and am to tired to do so. Thanks for yall's answers AHeneen, a member of the Wikitravel:Florida_Expedition AHeneen 02:10, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

We use protection very sparingly, usually when spambots are involved. We definitely never consider protecting pages based on misguided efforts, rather we try and guide new and anon users towards learning the right place to put things... when you do move the listings out, leave descriptive edit summaries so that users who look at the history can see why and where you moved the info to. I know it's annoying and sometimes time-consuming, but that's sorta how it's gotta be, we can't write these guides with just a handful of us, we need those new and anon contributors :) – cacahuate talk 02:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)