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:[[Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week]] -- [[User:Cjensen|Colin]] 16:42, 22 March 2006 (EST)
:[[Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week]] -- [[User:Cjensen|Colin]] 16:42, 22 March 2006 (EST)
Okay but still i'am saying no vandal... [[User:Traveler2006|Traveler2006]] 16:47, 28 March 2006 (EST) just a determend user to add info for pages stubs into articles look at [[Burton]] [[Ohio]]! [[User:Traveler2006|Traveler2006]] 16:47, 28 March 2006 (EST)

Revision as of 21:51, 28 March 2006

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'. Also, if you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Bug reports page instead.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!


Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

Stuff that's been moved:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

When is a Country a Country?

I've been looking around a bit to see if I could find a policy regarding how to divide places up by counties. It's obvious for most places, but there are enough disputed territories that it seems worth while: Jammu and Kashmir, Taiwan, Tibet, ect. It would also be fairly easy to do by listing a few criteria. I would suggest: Immigration control/rules (i.e. who issues the visa, controls the border post), and currency would be enough, although I'm open to more. These are two important things for travelers, but to clarify them would limit edit wars by people with political bias. I know that it's kind of already covered by "wikitravel is for travelers" but I do think it's useful to clarify it all the same as to how that relates to national borders. keithonearth 16:35, 29 Jan 2006 (EST)

If such a policy is drafted, currency wouldn't be a very good criterion, because it can muddy the waters more than it clarifies things. For example: the US dollar is the legal currency in several countries; the banks of England/Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland each issue not-entirely-interchangeable Pound Sterling notes; and some federations of countries share currencies (e.g. former French colonies in Africa, several Carribean islands, the European Monetary Union). In most cases it's clear enough what's a "country"... and where it isn't, I don't think any arbitrary site policy is likely to settle it. TVerBeek 19:34, 29 Jan 2006 (EST)
I'd not realized that about African former French colonies, and I don't know if any of them are engaged in border disputes, or how my seg. However in the case of Euro-zone countries there's no real debate as to where the borders are, it makes no difference in the UK to clarify or muddy the situation, nor are the borders disputed in the case of the countries using the USD. However, with regard to my above examples (J&K, Tibet, Taiwan) it does clarify things. Unfortunately I'm not knowledgeable enough of ambiguous areas outside of that. Immigration control alone could be useful too, again the EU is confusing to deal with (or more accurately the Schengen countries) but likewise it's not really an issue. I don't really think that your critisisms are enough to dismiss my idea alltogether, a more sensible approach might be to just be more explicit that it is De Facto boundaries that are the ones we are primarily interested in. Thanks for your answer.keithonearth 21:00, 29 Jan 2006 (EST)
My point is that currency isn't a sound criterion. If it isn't relevant to the status of Panama or Belgium or Burkina Faso or Saint Lucia as separate countries, why would it be relevant to Taiwan or Kashmir? And Northern Ireland is a disputed territory, where the question of whether Bank of Ireland notes can be used in England could very well be used to stir up the waters. Better to steer clear of politics and not declare what is/isn't a "country", and stick to simply describing places. 20:31, 30 Jan 2006 (EST)

Suggestion: New field for nearby locations

For people unfamiliar with the geography of towns they visit on this site, I think it would be a good idea to have another sections "nearest places" much like Wiki does for city entries. This would then list links to other places that have entries on this site so one can plan road trips etc.

This is especially useful for small towns. A user may not be interested in what just one town has to offer, but being able to hotlink to other towns nearby and identifying what all the towns provide together makes one more likely to visit the area and plan their excursions... Dawtcalm 09:35, 3 Feb 2006 (EST)dawtcalm

The "Get out" section of each article is meant for nearby destinations. See Wikitravel:Article templates for discussions of templates and what each section is used for, and this discussion for comments about why the section is called "Get out". -- Ryan 12:08, 3 Feb 2006 (EST)

Related Site Project: Wikiscuba

I have started a wiki,, to describe scuba diving locations around the world. It was in part inspired by wikitravel and I thought there could be some wikitravellers interested in participating in the wikiscuba project as well. There is a discussion on Talk:Scuba diving between myself and Jpatokal. We initially disagreed as to whether this warranted an entirely different wiki, but I think we've come to the conclusion that a separate wiki with technical information about diving sites for divers might be preferable over the inclusion of more technical scuba information in wikitravel. In any case, it would be great to have as much 'cross-talk' as possible. I'm sure there are travellers who would benefit from having links to scuba diving information when planning a trip and many divers planning a diving trip would like to find information about the local culture/attractions.

I guess at this point, what I'm fishing (no pun intended) for is any suggestion on how best we could make the dive location wiki interface with wikitravel. Also if anyone is interested in participating in that project, leaving me a message on my talk page would be good. The database at wikiscuba was mostly a try to get acquainted with setting up the wiki. I wouldn't go and create accounts just yet.

Note that there's also another scuba diving wiki that is starting with general technical information about scuba diving (I didn't secure both the .org and .com domain names in the beginning, so ironically it's hosted at Although that wiki is probably not interesting for most wikitravellers, it might be of interest to people who use wikiscuba(.org). I'm in the process of discussing with the instigator of the wikiscuba(.com) project to see if he would be open to fusing both projects together.Charles 17:23, 6 Feb 2006 (EST)

From what I read at the discussion page it looks like User:Jpatokal is still in favor of keeping scuba diving information here on Wikitravel. -- Mark 04:44, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)
That would be correct. Of course I wish Charles the best of luck if he wishes to set up something entirely new, but I hate to see the wheel reinvented and the synergies to Wikitravel seem, to me, pretty obvious. Jpatokal 04:52, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)
Thanks for correcting me. I'm not trying to take anything away from wikitravel. I think divers who are preparing an actual dive want more specific information about specific dive sites (depth, water temp., typical visibility, etc.). I don't think this information should be included in wikitravel. There have already been several discussions (about scuba diving, golf, etc.) and my feel is that detailed technical information shouldn't be on wikitravel. In that sense, I don't think it's reinventing the wheel. Call me stubborn, but I still fail to see how detailed scuba information would fit in wikitravel. I would love to see interaction and redirects between two wikis, of course. I think it would be beneficial to both. Charles 10:11, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)

Yes, similar to the thoughts you had on Scuba, I was thinking about how information for golfers could be slotted in. Personally, I would much rather these (and other) areas could be kept within WikiTravel to avoid duplication of effort, rather than as seperate sites (wikigolf, wikiscuba). However, I am worried about possible conflicts with the goals/non-goals of wikiTravel. I would like somewhere to read/write details about any particular golf I would be travelling to (even tinpot local courses), however it they would likely not be important enough to list in the Do section, and I am hesitant to create a Golfing in xxx section for every location with a golf course (which is pretty much everywhere). This was why I was starting and appending courses to the Golf section, intending possibly to split it up later when we had multiple course information for a particular region.Hkpatv 01:24, 8 Feb 2006 (EST)

My feeling on the matter is that there is a place for more specific activities on Wikitravel. For example, a general discussion of Bali might mention diving issues of interest to a general audience ("there will be a lot of divers here" or "if you ever wanted to learn to dive, there are a lot of good shops here"), but a more specific Diving in Lovina Beach would cover the more technical issues (depth, water temperature, things to see, etc.).
That said, I think there's more to say about scuba than would fit in a travel guide (equipment, safety, etc.) and there's definitely room in the world for a specific diving wiki. (Same goes for golf, surfing, offroad driving, or other targeted activities). So good luck on Wikiscuba (and wikigolf!) and let's make sure we keep lines of communication open. --Evan 10:58, 8 Feb 2006 (EST)

Search will find every occurance of "golf" or "scuba" on Wikitravel and present each pagename. So if golf or scuba info is put on a subpage of the city page it is nearest too, for example San_Francisco/golf, that will display nicely in the Article title matches section of the Search results. Note that because there is a "golf" page in the (Main) namespace hitting ruturn (Go) takes you there instead of to Search results. So you must click Search instead of hitting return.

Can't get to External Links page

I can't get to Wikitravel:External_links right now. I'm getting the error "The page you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter." I tried to paste the actual error, but of course *that* gets blocked by the spam filter. Jonboy 03:27, 11 Feb 2006 (EST)

Looks like the error message was cached as though it were the actual page. If you ever see that happening again all you have to do is go to the dynamic version of the page and it will clear up the problem. Or you can just mention it here. -- Mark 04:45, 11 Feb 2006 (EST)
Ugh. That's not supposed to happen. I cleared the cache, and hopefully it won't happen again. -- 11:58, 11 Feb 2006 (EST)

How to create a new Disambiguation page

Sorry for the newbie questions, I'm probably missing something here but in the articles on the subject I cannot find how to create a new disambiguation page for two existing locations, namely Rabat in Morocco and Rabat in Malta. PeterW 06:30, 14 Feb 2006 (EST)

It's just an ordinary page with a link of places to go. However, for this particular case I think the one in Morocco (capital of the country, pop 1.2m) is much more famous than the Maltese one (pop. what, a couple of hundred?), so they should go in Rabat and Rabat (Malta) respectively. Jpatokal 08:24, 14 Feb 2006 (EST)

Depth and the templates

I am very happy to have found Wikitravel, since this has been going round in my mind since I knew Wikipedia. I could contribute a lot of Information and pictures for Germany (my homecountry), Taiwan, Sint Maarten, Anguilla, Rhodes,... I am very unsure where to add Information, because despite many entries still being largely empty (Taiwan south), There is already a huge and very deep structure present: Of course, Kenting/Taiwan is Pingtung county, which is south Taiwan. But I cannot fill the Pingtung county template, and who will find the Kenting info there with all the empty templates in the way.

I would propose to do a top-down approach, splitting up files as they become too large or too much, instead of building an uncontrollably large structure first and then fill it bottom-up. Generating empty templates for an empty country doesn't help the project, as it annoys readers a lot. Plus, the climate for all of south Taiwan is tropical, which means hot and humid. It does not have to be stated for every single county or region.

Same goes for Munich/Germany, by the way. Yes, Munich can be split into hundreds of sub-units. But then no-one will find this nice restaurant in Rotkreuzplatz/Neuhausen/Munich in the first place. Too deep! I doubt that it is in the interest of the project if I go through these entries and prune like hell. Can someone point me to either the reason for the template-madness or a go-ahead to prune?

Marc 05:30, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)

We are, for most part, using a top-down approach. Travellers going to Kenting will likely just punch in or search for "Kenting" and find the article, the regions are meant to help them find things that are nearby.
And I agree with you completely that cities should not be split into a million districts, just as many as logically needed and no more. Please suggest what you think would be a good division on Talk:Munich. Jpatokal 05:57, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)

Jargon is a barrier to newbies

Will someone please tell me what isln stands for? I often come across those jorgons like vfd especially in discussion pages. Search engine does not help me to find those words' meanings. Maybe a glossary page for them? Or discourage to use them.Nightingale 11:31, 19 Feb 2006 (EST)

isIn stands for "is in", see Template talk:IsIn. VfD is Wikitravel:Votes for deletion. Unfortunately shorthand like this evolves out of necessity, because long-term users will isin, vfd, rvt etc hundreds of articles... And actually, a Google search for vfd will explain the concept in the first result! Jpatokal 11:35, 19 Feb 2006 (EST)
Maybe we should start a Wikitravel:Jargon page to make it easier for new users? I think it'd be a nice addition to Wikitravel:tips for new contributors. --Evan 12:18, 19 Feb 2006 (EST)
Thank you. I support Evan's idea that is user-friendly.Nightingale 11:59, 20 Feb 2006 (EST)

Checklist for Wikitravellers on the road?

Is there anywhere a list of suggestions for someone on a trip who wants to maximize the usefulness of their experience to this site? If not, would it be worthwile to create such a list. I'm thinking of something like:

  1. Does the existing description in "Get In" fit with your experience of arriving? If there is no description of your mode of travel, start one. What was unusual about the experience that other people should know?
  2. Did you stay in a hotel or other paid accomodation? If so, would you recommend it to others? If so, please add it to "Sleep". If not, please delete it from "Sleep" if it's there, but explain why in the Talk page.

Etc. Jonboy 09:51, 20 Feb 2006 (EST)

Arabic and Hindi Wikitravel

Even though I dont speak the languages i was wondering about how to get it up and running? Enlil Ninlil 00:47, 22 Feb 2006 (EST)

Wikitravel:How to start a new language version Jpatokal 01:52, 22 Feb 2006 (EST)

Watching all the articles within a region

I think that this question has been asked a while ago, but anyway...

Now that we have the really good Breadcrumb navigation (IsIn) working, is it possible to use this to "watch" all the articles within a region eg. Sicily? DanielC 08:13, 23 February 2006 (EST)

World Cup 2006

The World Cup is happening in June! Some of the pages for the venues already look great and have loads of info, Berlin for example, but some of the smaller venues Kaiserslautern, Hanover to name but a few are looking very bare!

I didn't know whether the whole World Cup could count as a collaboration of the week, but it might be worthwhile grouping a couple of venues together and having a double collaboration of the week or something like that so that they are looking good soon. The tickets are in the process of being handed out to customers after the draw, so people will very soon be looking at places to stay during their trips to Germany, and we will have missed the boat if we dont get it sorted out in the very near future.

What do people think??? Tsandell 15:05 Feb 28 2006


1. Why does the Disclaimers link at the bottom of every page go to an Old Bug Reports page? (Is this a mistake?)

2. Do we need a Disclaimer page? (Wikipedia has one, several actually.)

--Rogerhc 01:35, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Terms of Service?

Do we need any kind of Terms of Service page? (Wikipedia seems to feel they don't need that although they do have drafts that seem to end up concluding, rightly or wrongly, that there is no service and therefore no terms of service because there is no formal service relationship, thus no agreement or terms.)

--Rogerhc 01:35, 6 March 2006 (EST)

We have a Wikitravel:Terms of use. Is that about what you were looking for? --Evan 07:19, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Oregon Contributor Activity

There seems to be quite a number of newbie contributors in Oregon for some reason. If you see anyone contributing there, check it out because they often seem to need some guidance. -- Colin 13:30, 10 March 2006 (EST)

One of them wrote me and said
As an assignment for a business class at Oregon State my classmates
and I are required to update a public wiki with "valuable contributions."
so that explains that. -- Colin 22:15, 10 March 2006 (EST)
There has been a huge rush of contributions this afternoon (16 March) that appear to be from this group. Maple Canyon, Waldo Lake, Great glen way, and a ton of images. A lot of the images appear to be copyvios, but I've run out of time to keep tracking them down so anyone who has a chance to look into them it would be much appreciated.
To the contributors: your contributions are much appreciated and very valuable additions. The concerns are that they are not copyright violations (see Wikitravel:Image policy), that they are valid article topics (see Wikitravel:What is an article?), and to a lesser extent that they are formatted correctly (see Wikitravel:Manual of style). -- Ryan 20:57, 16 March 2006 (EST)
Also to the contributors: It would also be a good idea to pay attention to the Wikitravel:Article templates applicable to what you're writing, so that your contributions are indeed "valuable." (I'd bet that that Oregon State instructor is aware of the templates -- or soon will be.) Using the templates to begin with will save some rewriting later that may simply wipe your contribution out, with a possibly similar wipeout on your grade... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 22:30, 16 March 2006 (EST)


I see the new logo's been put into place, and it looks nice. But I'm still seeing ye olde globe-and-arrow icon as the favicon for the site (the little icon that shows up in the URL field, "favorites" listing, and/or title bar of better web browsers). I'd be happy to make a favicon.ico file, but obviously I can't update it on the site myself. Todd VerBeek 22:11, 18 March 2006 (EST)

If you take a look at Image:Compass star emblem coolvetica logo.png and Image:Treatment.png I think Mark has actually already created an image suitable for a favicon, but I'm not sure what the status for getting it on the site is -- rumor has it that there's an entirely new skin in the works that uses the new logos, but either Evan or Mark would probably be the only ones who could provide an update. -- Ryan 04:36, 19 March 2006 (EST)
Thanks for the reminder; I've got the new icon up now, too. You may have to load directly in your browser before it realizes that the icon has changed. --Evan 09:09, 19 March 2006 (EST)

Local Interest Infoboxes

Many dead-tree travelguides will have a sidebar with little blurbs containing say, little bits of history, or local interest stories that add dimension and character to a destination. What is Wikitravel's policy on things such as this, if any? I do not see many, if any of these on the site. Is this sort of thing wanted here? I can think of many examples of such blurbs in my area that may interest a traveller and add some insight to the area but they do not fit within the context of the current template style. Any thoughts on this? -- bulliver 03:07, 20 March 2006 (EST)

I make a habit of sprinkling these into articles I write (see. eg Kawasaki, Cape Ashizuri) and they've so far managed to survive deletion. The main issue is that the Infobox template used to create them has never been formally accepted, due to Evan's resistance to the use of templates, but this seems to be less of an issue these days. See Wikitravel:Information boxes. Jpatokal 03:16, 20 March 2006 (EST)
Yeah, that's exactly what I am talking about. So if I understand here, it is not the information in, well, a box that is the point of contention, but the use of templates to create them? Is there not strait wiki markup that can be used? I feel quite strongly that these things can be very effective if not overused. Using an obvious example here, consider the Ogopogo. It is not a place you can visit or a thing you can do, but is still tangible information that draws tourists to the region and contributes largely to its charm. -- bulliver 03:45, 20 March 2006 (EST)
I like those a lot - after seeing the Singapore article I started using them and have put them on Las Vegas, South Georgia and others and think that they make the article more interesting. And if we're gonna do them, a template should definitely be used to keep things consistent -- what was the argument against the infobox template? -- Ryan 22:51, 20 March 2006 (EST)

Suggestion: Article Improvment Drive

I would support an Article Improvment Drive like the one in Wikipedia. We already have the cotw thing for usable articles, but I would suggest AID would be for Guide and Star articles that need to be perfected. Would anyone like this???????? --Worldtraveller 14:20, 22 March 2006 (EST)

Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week -- Colin 16:42, 22 March 2006 (EST)


Okay but still i'am saying no vandal... Traveler2006 16:47, 28 March 2006 (EST) just a determend user to add info for pages stubs into articles look at Burton Ohio! Traveler2006 16:47, 28 March 2006 (EST)