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A pretty good article. --[[User:184.108.40.206|220.127.116.11]] 11:37, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
A pretty good article. --[[User:18.104.22.168|22.214.171.124]] 11:37, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
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Revision as of 09:18, 12 May 2010
Here we determine which articles are featured on the Main Page as Destination of the Month (DOTM) and Off the Beaten Path (OTBP).
You can nominate an article you would like to see featured; just say a few words about why, and select a good time to go. Well-known and/or popular destinations should be nominated as Destination of the Month, while more obscure destinations should be nominated for Off the Beaten Path. Any destination, region, itinerary or event that passes the "What is an article?" test is eligible for DotM/OtBP.
The basic format of a nomination is as follows:
Great article and it's just luvvly-jubbly in the springtime. ~~~~
However, before nominating, please check that the article follows these basic guidelines:
- The nominated article should have an article status of guide or star. This includes having at least one good picture, and listings/headers/etc. that match our manual of style.
- The nominated article should be featured at a good time to visit.
- The nominated article must not have been featured previously.
- If the article has been nominated previously but failed, any objections should be addressed before nominating it again.
- See Slush pile to check.
- If you think a once-slushed destination is now ready to go, list it as new, but with a pointer to the slush pile entry.
You can also comment on any previous nomination based on timeliness and adherence to the criteria above, just add a bullet point (*) and your signed opinion.
Great article and it's just luvvly-jubbly in the springtime. TravelNut 25:25, 31 Feb 2525 (EDT)
* Looks nice, but shouldn't the Do section contain more than just quilting contests? ~~~~
If an article gets several comments in favor and none against for a week or so, it's eligible to be placed in an appropriate time-slot in the queue.
Please note that the following are not considered valid reasons to oppose a nomination:
- "I don't like it." All objections have to be based on the guidelines above: poor formatting, missing information, etc. Personal opinions, dislikes, etc do not count.
- "Wrong time of year." Articles are supported or opposed based on their content. Timing can be worked out later.
- "Wrong type of place." Articles are supported or opposed based on their content. Whether it's DoTM or OtBP can be worked out later.
Discussions for previously selected destinations are in the Archive. Discussions for nominations that didn't make the grade are in the Slush pile.
Upcoming DOTM / OTBP
The following queue should contain about six months' worth of upcoming destinations. Note that new DotMs are rotated in on the 1st of each month, while OtBPs are changed on the 15th.
These are not cast in stone, and the order can be changed if, for example, an excellent guide for a timely event is found. Whenever a guide becomes a current feature, it should be removed from the list, the discussion archived, and a new month added to the end of the queue. Alternatives are OK; the whole point is to enable some discussion as needed.
The section below provides an opportunity to see what the DOTM and OTBP will look like on the Main Page. Please remember that main page real-estate is a valuable commodity, so keep the description brief and the photo small.
Nominations for Destination of the Month
The capital of Laos, an increasingly popular tourist destination (no longer OtBP) and a very comprehensive article that almost suffers from too much information. Best in the winter season (Nov-Mar or thereabouts). Jpatokal 08:40, 24 April 2009 (EDT)
- Support but it needs in some sections (Get around, Drink) a traveller who was their as some dates (e.g. 2007 for deadline of bars) are totally outdated... jan 05:17, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Could use a manual of style wash, but it has great imagery and makes a strong case for visiting. Gorilla Jones
- Support Although I agree that the page would be better if it were formatted properly and if the sites were organized according to locale, I think it's a nice page. ChubbyWimbus 20:41, 29 June 2009 (EDT)
- Support Reluctantly. This is when I get mixed feelings about Wikitravel. Vientianne is one of my favourite places and the page well captures my feelings about it. But do I really want it full of Wikitravel readers next time I go there?Shep 14:30, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
- Why not? We're a charming bunch. Most of us, anyway. Gorilla Jones 17:21, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
- Well, you can have too much of a good thing!Shep 09:07, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
- We promise not to invite the spambots. - Dguillaime 21:33, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
- I don't think Wikitravellers are going to come in such droves that it will take away from the charm of the city. I guess you could try to think of it in other terms: Visitors help the local/nation's economy (don't know much about Laotian economics, but money is usually a good thing), you can showcase a city that you hold dear to you so that others can share that same type of experience, it can help fight against stereotypes that Laos is a war-torn Hmong refugee nation, etc. ChubbyWimbus 13:02, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
- I note this has migrated to May — I've never been to Vientiane, but May is hot and miserable for much of the region, and according to this chart, it's also the rainy season. Gorilla Jones 18:56, 9 January 2010 (EST)
- Wasn't this scheduled for this month? When and why did it get moved? You should not go anywhere in Laos in that period - stinking hot and wet. Best in October to March period.--Burmesedays 03:22, 10 January 2010 (EST)
- Stefan replaced Vientiane with Nara due to 1300th festival of Nara. I agree it is not the right time. Shall we switch Gilis instead? jan 08:22, 15 January 2010 (EST)
We aren't exactly running short on Japan DOTMs, but here's one more for sometime in 2010. Best in spring or fall. Jpatokal 10:08, 18 July 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Good descriptions in this one. Gorilla Jones 11:21, 18 July 2009 (EDT)
- It's a very pretty article, but there are few addresses listed—is this a Japan-specific thing? --Peter Talk 15:22, 18 July 2009 (EDT)
- It wouldn't hurt to add them, but in general directions are much more useful for finding places in Japan. Jpatokal 01:27, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
- Most other Japan pages have addresses. The listings on the Kanazawa page only mimic Wikitravel's formatting, but they do not actual use it. I suspect that's why the addresses are left out. There is a lot of time, though, to format the page properly before this is featured. ChubbyWimbus 17:27, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
- Support Wish I had read this when I was there, all I remember seeing was the "clock fountain" and the park. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:50, 4 December 2009 (EST)
A good article on one of China's nicer cities, a provincial capital with some historical importance.
I live in China; to me this seems a major destination, DotM candidate. I wonder, though, if others might think it is more an "Off the beaten path" candidate. Among WT itineraries, Kunming is the jumping off point for Yunnan tourist trail (definitely well beaten), one end point for Overland Kunming to Hong Kong, and on some of the routes in Overland to Tibet and Long March.
- Almost Support. The Do section is empty and the Eat section needs to be cleaned up, with some restaurants and preferably food pictures added, but other than that it's looking pretty good. I'd pop for DotM, it's a fairly major destination. Jpatokal 08:13, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
- Not Yet It's a great destination, and is definitely more of a DotM, but I don't think it's ready yet. I think the "Understand" section could be more clear. Some of the entries/sections are not properly formatted. The organization of the "See" section would also be better if it were organized according to locale rather than arbitrary things like "Buildings" and "museums". The two temples could be presented better, also. Pictures are needed, as JPatokal pointed out. The "Do" section definitely needs content. No featured destination should have empty sections. ChubbyWimbus 20:59, 5 September 2009 (EDT)
Can an itinerary be DotM? Yunnan tourist trail covers four towns, three at guide & one a good outline, and two trekking areas, one guide & one stub. Could the whole thing be DotM? Pashley 21:29, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
- Yes, the Dalton Highway was an OtBP, but...I believe it's the article which must have DotM-worthy content, and Yunnan tourist trail certainly does not contain DotM-worthy content. AHeneen 00:21, 19 November 2009 (EST)
One of my favorite places in the world, and the article's in decent shape as well. Not ruined yet, but should be listed before it turns into the next Kuta. Best season is May-Oct, but quite usable any time of the year. Jpatokal 08:37, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Great article, and quite OtBP. Time to fill the queue with Indonesian articles, methinks. --Peter Talk 16:32, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
Support. A lovely place. Certainly not ruined yet as Jani says but it might be going that way. This nomination has prompted me to do a bit of work on the article also. I know Gili T especially well and a few little updates would help an already good article. --Burmesedays 21:07, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
- Unsure It's a good article but are the Gili Islands still OtbP? It's definitely on the standard backpacker trail and even my travel agency in Zurich offered me Gili T as part of a package tour from Lombok to Bali. I will not disagree if we continue under OtbP but maybe users are surprised. jan 11:42, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
- Yeah, I was thinking about that too, but it's still pretty OtBP outside the backpacker set -- no branded hotels etc. Even the package tour you mention probably only stops over in Gili T, right? Jpatokal 04:23, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
- The organised tour started in Senggigi, Lombok stopped two nights at Gili T, then onwards to Nusa Lemboggan for some snorkeling and finished in Sanur, Bali. I had a quick look and the two biggest german speaking travel companies now offer for all package tourists this option. They do this primarily because European travel companies are still not allowed to book indonesian airlines due to the EU ban. Regards, jan 05:08, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
- Strictly speaking I guess Gili T (especially) is no longer OtBT. And even within Indonesia you could make an argument for many places better deserving of this tag. The very nature of the place, the absence of any name hotels and the good state of the WT article makes it a valid candidate though I think.--Burmesedays 05:15, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
- I added the Gili Islands in the schedule for February because it's a good time to start the preparation for a trip but Bali is in March... How about feature Bali and the Gilis jointly in March? That would make an interesting combination for travellers. jan 05:34, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
- I think it is preferred to keep the DotM/OtBP diverse. Although there may be instances when the same country occupied both features, I'd rather avoid that. It makes the features less exciting when one nation dominates, and it doesn't showcase the full scope of Wikitravel. How about instead of featuring this with Bali we switch it with Tobacco Caye? Although Vientiane and Gili Islands are both in Southeast Asia, at least they are not both in the same country. ChubbyWimbus 11:41, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
- Chubby, I forgot the different changing dates for DotM and OtbP so you are right, they will be featured for two weeks. I will do the change with Tobacco Caye. Feel free to change it further if there are any other ideas. jan 05:17, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
- Withdrawn support. The more I think about this, the more I do not think it is such a good idea. The article is great and I love the place. But I think we are stretching the definition of OtBP here. The destination is relatively well known these days and as Jan pointed out it even crops up as part of fairly bland European (especially) package tours. There is also the country factor....... We are proposing to feature Indonesia twice in the near future which in itself is great. But there are some good, well-developed articles for truly OtBP destinations in Indonesia and I can see those getting short shrift because we have featured the Gili Islands which does not altogether fit the OtBP definition.--Burmesedays 23:28, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
- Well, what category it should feature in shouldn't be the basis of your support, neither should whether you like or don't like the destinition, or when it should be featured. It should be judged on it's merits as an article. Details like that merely calls for discussion of those issues. Destinations can be parked her for a year if need be for the right timing. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 23:36, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
- Really? If the point of these nominations is to highlight a destination and then judge it on the merit of the WT article with no regard for whether it fits a set of criteria, then I have completely misunderstood. --Burmesedays 00:01, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
- → You might want to give the #Select paragraph a re-read then :o) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 00:07, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
- Ah. Yes. Indeed. That'll teach me eh? :o) Not for the first time, thank you Stefan for pointing me in the right direction. So.... no problems at all with the article it is very good. It should though be a DoTM candidate not OtBP. There. :) --Burmesedays 00:43, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
- Schedule proposal I think we should feature the Gilis in late spring 2010 (May/June) as DotM as compared to the competition of Niamey, Tobacco Caye, Hilversum etc. it is not really anymore OtBP. I also read Select and think that with the partial lift of the EU ban on indonesian airlines the no. of package tourists will significantly increase and in 2010 no one will argue anymore that it is OtBP. I think we should keep Hyderabad as proposed in January 2010 as it is the best time for a visit but Christchurch could be an alternative to the Asian overweights in the list. Would anyone oppose a shift of the Gilis to the Dotm section? jan 07:44, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
- May or June is good scheduling for the Gilis: good weather but before the islands become over-run in July and August. The months to avoid are December to February when rains can be fairly extreme and the islands flood (wading through one metre of floodwater on Gili T is not much fun!). For reasons already stated, DoTM makes more sense to me for this destination.--Burmesedays 22:39, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
- I entered the Gilis for May as DotM jan 09:56, 19 November 2009 (EST)
- Excellent jan. I pledge to have a Gili Islands map ready soon. --Burmesedays 09:59, 19 November 2009 (EST)
- I have been looking at this article very closely, and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Gili Islands should actually be a region, and each island have its own article. I have made the proposal at Talk:Gili Islands, and think we should decide on this before it appears as a DotM.--Burmesedays 03:20, 21 February 2010 (EST)
- Article is now in great shape - or articles rather as there are now 4 of them. It ought to appear as DotM before October when the rain starts. --Burmesedays 07:19, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
- I switched the Gilis to September in the schedule. The main reasons are: 1. We then have enough time to bring it to star status 2. We have a little more distance to the Bali Dotm now and 3. it would be too late for Figueres in 2010. Any opposition? jan 07:56, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
Another African find. This one in a much better shape than Niamey. It's extremely well written I think, it feels complete. There are some missing addresses here and there, but must of them has GPS coordinates instead, and this is Africa so I suspect there is a reason for those. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:17, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support, definitely. I find myself rather shocked that we have a great Sudanese article! And one that seems to have grown organically, without love from any one contributor. --Peter Talk 14:20, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
- Nice, but needs work A surprisingly good article for the region, but I think it needs more information before it is fit for DotM...this is a city of EIGHT million! As for coordinates, they are very useful to some people, not at all to others. I've been doing a bit of browsing the past few months on the  and coordinates are used (& more useful than addresses) by practically everyone driving themselves...but for other tourists (and there are lots doing Cairo-Nairobi independently or with an overland bus) addresses are more helpful (even just the street name, esp. for telling the taxi driver and watching for signs on a minibus).
- Photos: There is one good picture and one that isn't really necessary.
- Intro: Needs some history and certainly needs some climate info
- Get in: (By bus) Where's the new bus terminal/name? (By train) So the station is chaotic and trains erratic, but how do I get a ticket?
- See: Could use some more items and lengthier descriptions.
- Do: Two things?
- Buy: Lists places, but are there any particular items which are good to buy?
- Eat: I realize this is Africa and so there are thousands of small, good places to eat which frequently open/close and relocate...so we don't really need more listings. But this section would be best served by dividing it into the three sections of the city.
- Drink: Why does 'drink'='alcohol'. Is tea served anywhere?
- Cope: A few more embassy listings.
- Get out: Descriptions should be more brief and those destinations should have their own article. I think the Red Sea area and Jebel Barkal listings are too far away (and in whole other regions of Sudan) to be listed.
- Stay Safe: A VERY important section is missing! While the city is considered one of the safest for expats in E.Africa (despite violence elsewhere in the country), there are quite a few cultural sensitivities. If you follow the news, you'd know that in Khartoum: a schoolteacher was imprisoned for naming a teddybear Muhammed, a Sudanese journalist was jailed and sentenced to a fine & 40 lashes for wearing trousers (deemed inappropriate attire for a woman), and a US embassy employee and his driver were shot to death last year by conservative Islamists (although terrorism isn't really a huge threat). Political topics should be avoided. Some are sensitive to the North-South conflict (I think the South will vote on independence in a year or two), the Darfur conflict (I doubt many will side with Westerners who blame the Sudanese gov't), and the warrant for Bashir's arrest issued earlier this year (which Western governments lauded).
- So, while the article is much better than most African ones, I think a lot of info should be added to bring it to true guide status and to be featured. The second edition Bradt guide (the best guides to African countries) for Sudan should be released this December, . The first edition is a bit outdated, and this one claims a big update to Khartoum info. I got the Bradt guides to Mali, Niger, & Nigeria this summer and they are truly incredible in their scope of these 'off-the-beaten-path' destinations...if someone picks up this guide, I guarantee we could have a star article for Khartoum. Another good source of info is over at LP Thorntree . I'd do most of the updating myself, but I'm very busy (and it's quite late at night while I'm writing this)...hopefully I'll find time to contribute to this fine destination soon. AHeneen 02:57, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
- The Stay safe argument is quite compelling, so should we slush this? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:31, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
- NO. As far as safety goes, visitors must simply be careful to avoid insulting Islam (I think it's about the same as in Saudi Arabia or Iran) and avoiding politics concerning the North-South conflict and the president's role in the Darfur conflict (just like you shouldn't discuss politics in many countries). Khartoum seems to me like an interesting city in the region, and with just a little work (like I outlined) it could be a great DotM. AHeneen 23:13, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
- I can't find much info to fix this article. I really hope it stays here and isn't slushed for a while as I would really like to see it featured. As far as timing goes, very important and (we hope not) potentially explosive elections are set to run from 5-12 April with results announced later in the month. While the city is not too dangerous to be rejected for DotM, these are the first elections since 1986 and the first after decades of civil war. As the capital and largest city of the country combined with very sensitive elections, I think it should not be featured earlier than June...to give time to see if violence (like in Iran) breaks out. Again, it is otherwise a fairly safe city. AHeneen 17:56, 13 December 2009 (EST)
- Actually, I think featuring it during the elections period might be best, since people will be googling "Khartoum!" We are featuring Copenhagen during the COP15 summit, which clearly is not a great time to visit, but to great effect. The true goal of the DotM is really just to attract new users (aside from encouraging users to improve their pet projects with the reward of a front page feature, of course). Stefan noted that on 14 Dec, "Copenhagen" was the #3 "hot search" on Google trends, and our guide was the #3 search result! I think featuring articles when they are in the news can be a good way to give our site extra exposure. --Peter Talk 23:57, 17 December 2009 (EST)
- Aw, I like to think there's a wider variety of goals in featuring destinations! ;-) ChubbyWimbus 00:22, 18 December 2009 (EST)
Another find outside our core areas, this time found among our most edited destinations. We might have the (usual) issues with formatting again, but the content definitively seems up to standards. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 08:21, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
- Almost support. I like the article and the city, and I'm not a stickler for formatting, but there are a handful of junk listings that would need to be cleaned out, and I'd like to see a bit more organization within the headings to emphasize highlights — as it is, they're all just long lists of listings. Gorilla Jones 23:00, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Great destination (when it is not foggy and raining... errr.... ). The article looks a wee bit untidy at first glance but nothing that a quick spring clean would not put right. And it needs a climate section as the weather is an extremely important factor down there. --Burmesedays 23:10, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
- Soft support The sleep section is weak with non standard listings (budget/mid-range/splurge), the article does not have a map and some minor formatting issues that can be handled until the article goes online. jan 09:13, 16 October 2009 (EDT) Withdrawn support no improvement and does not match our criteria. Shall it end in the slush pile ? jan 05:33, 1 February 2010 (EST)
- With only eight listings, the budget/mid-range/splurge headers are not needed. =) LtPowers 09:41, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
- The drink and sleep section are not up to our standards and we don't have a map for the city. I think the article is a bit weak for DotM if not someone rather soon starts to improve the article. Maybe we take the article out of the schedule until someone starts to work on the open issues. jan 11:58, 25 November 2009 (EST)
- Needs work With only 8 listings, the Sleep section is woefully inadequate for a city the size of Christchurch. One sleep listing is probably better in a separate Lincoln article rather than Christchurch, while the other 7 are a rather incomplete selection of mostly downtown accommodation. There are many (hundreds, perhaps even a thousand) more places to sleep in Christchurch than those listed, both in the city and the suburbs. Enought to justify budget/mid-range/splurge headings with 10 or more places listed in each. Many of the other listings lack addresses or other contact details. Also, there is no mention of Canterbury University or other places of learning. - Huttite 05:49, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
- Should this be slushpiled? I am not sure of the criteria for that.....--Burmesedays 03:34, 29 April 2010 (EDT)
I have wanted to get one of the Indonesian park articles to a state where it could be nominated for some weeks now and here it is. It is not the longest of articles but it provides a good, accurate guide to the park. And you get to look at one of Mr Patokallio's finest which is used as the lead image.
A bit of history for this article. When I first had a look at the East Java region articles, there was one each for Mount Bromo and Mount Semeru and another one for the national park. Clearly that did not make too much sense so all 3 were combined into one. You could make arguments for this being DoTM or OtBP. It is not that well known a destination internationally but is very much on the domestic Indonesian tour package circuit. Hence I am fairly ambivalent as to which category is more appropriate. Best time to visit is April through September. --Burmesedays 01:33, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support but unsure if OtBP or DotM. I usually tend to think that a National Park is OtBP but maybe this is different jan 07:27, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support. I'd just barely lean towards DotM, but wouldn't object too loudly to this being an OtBP. Jpatokal 10:34, 1 November 2009 (EST)
- Support Nice, but we are really booming with Indonesian destinations at the moment. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:50, 4 December 2009 (EST)
Although it was refused some time ago it is more complete now, and it's a very popular tourist destination. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs)
- Not Yet Although I have never been to Lisbon, I have a sneaky suspicion that there is more to see and do in the city than what is listed. Also, the "See" section lacks organization. Districts make better subsections than the arbitrary headings like "Architecture". The transportation information does not really belong in the "See" section. It seems better suited for "Get around". ChubbyWimbus 22:30, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
- Oppose Lisbon is a fantastic city, and this guide still really doesn't do it any justice. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 02:52, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
- More criticism wanted. While I completely agree that Lison is 'not there yet', I would welcome more criticism on what is missing and what should be improved. It could help me (and hopefully someone else) in improving the article. --DenisYurkin 16:39, 14 December 2009 (EST)
- Comments. Some suggestions to improve the article:
- Understand section is thin. Certainly needs a history sub-section and generally to tell us much more about the city.
- Do section is tiny - there must be more - theatres, cinemas, sport?
- Drink only has 3 listings.
- Get out is full of red links. --Burmesedays 19:55, 14 December 2009 (EST)
- Should this slushpiled? --Burmesedays 03:35, 29 April 2010 (EDT)
Impressively comprehensive guide, with some nice pictures to boot. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 02:52, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
- A few things: The "Do" and "Drink" sections need more descriptions. Are all of the food specialties specific to Kuching or could some be moved into the regional article? Also, many of the listings are not properly formatted. (To those who keep saying formatting is not required, I'd like to point out that it is listed as a requirement through the statement, "listings/headers/etc. that match our manual of style." Formatting is part of the manual of style, and "listings" are even mentioned directly. Please continue the discussion on the talk page if you have any thoughts on this.) ChubbyWimbus 16:32, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
- Virtually all of those food items should be moved over to Sarawak, which already lists most of them with the same pictures to boot... Jpatokal 10:20, 1 November 2009 (EST)
- Yeah, was thinking that might come up, what if we temporarily delete (move to the talk page) those empty listings while it's featured? there are plenty of others to go on. Aaaand, If you're going to oppose it on the merrit of the lack of "new style" format, I'll just go right ahead and slush this one again, cause I sure as hell ain't doing all that work, but I still think it's a pitty to disqualify good good guides on that basis. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 17:02, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
- Unless the "Do" and "Drink" sections are deemed to be lacking too much, I don't think it needs to be slushed for the formatting. If it were next month's feature, it would be more urgent, but since this is unscheduled, there could very well be 6 months before it is featured. That would be enough time for someone (not necessarily you) to put the listings in proper format. ChubbyWimbus 03:49, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support. It would be very cool to have a Brunei feature, and this one is, I think, certainly up to guide status and thus qualifies for a feature. I don't think deleting the very few unfinished listings would be worthwhile—that wouldn't IMO be an improvement, and if anything we should hope that they will encourage a new user to fill them out! --Peter Talk 04:25, 1 November 2009 (EST)
- Agreed, but I think you meant Borneo 8) Jpatokal 10:20, 1 November 2009 (EST)
- Support, slightly grudgingly. It is good when DoTM are actually nice places and I dont't like Kuching much. I know likes and dislikes are supposed to be irrelevant, however... :) More objectively, it is a good article for sure and certainly worthy of a DoTM. --Burmesedays 10:32, 1 November 2009 (EST)
- Support AHeneen 01:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)
I've given some love to this article by updating, formatting/cleaning up, and adding history. An interesting destination for the most seasoned of travelers, you could make a case for it as OtBP--few tourists (mostly military, businessmen, & redevelopment people), it's close to a war zone (and thus perceived as dangerous and off the beaten track), and it has a history of isolation & war (including much of the past 30 years)--but I have nominated it as DotM because despite its historical isolation it is a name recognized by most Westerners as Afghanistan's capital, number of visitors is high despite low number of tourists, it is rather safe despite its proximity to war zones to the south (towards Kandahar) & east (towards Jalalabad), and it is a large city and a regional center of culture and trade. The first 2 arguments for were brought up in discussions(Nov 08) over the nomination of Riyadh as a DotM.
The article is not perfect, as I struggled to find addresses or locations of some of the "see" listings I wonder whether much of Kabul has much of a street numbering system (even the US embassy does not list a number in describing there location). So one of two things needs to be done: some of you could help find out locations or we could just leave it as is and assume taxi drivers know where these places are and how to get there. A recent map would be nice along with more info to fill the "orientaion" section (or else it can be removed) and another thing I couldn't find was info for "Get in/By bus"...a simple note of where bus stations are is all that's needed. Aside from these couple of small problems, the article is a beauty and I'm going ahead with nominating it so it can get a decent spot in line to fill summer DotM slots. May-August seems like the appropriate window for Kabul. AHeneen 01:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Support A great article, except for a few things which need to be cleaned up as mentioned above. AHeneen 01:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Support. I'm rather amazed at the quality of this article! I agree that it should be featured as a DotM for the reasons you outline above. --Peter Talk 07:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Support This is a nice article for an interesting city. Some minor things that I'd add to be worked on: The Bagh-e Zanana is a place where only women can enter, right? It says "dedicated to women", which is awkward English, so if it means what I suspect it means, the wording should be changed (even if it doesn't, the wording could be clearer). The Bagh-e Bala should probably have some information about it (history, significance, the usual). Stadiums and cinemas are "Do"s, right? Also, "Money" probably shouldn't be its own heading. I'll make it a sub-heading of "Buy". ChubbyWimbus 15:46, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Yes, the park is women-only according to its Wikipedia article. I guess I overlooked a couple of things, feel free to add info...I'll see when I have time if I can fill in some more info. AHeneen 23:07, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Okay, I've added some info for Bagh-e Bala and moved the stadium and cinema to the "Do" section. I also added content to the Bagh-e Zanana BUT most of the content came from this website: The information is interesting, but I posted it in case someone wanted to challenge the info. I don't have any personal knowledge about the city, so if the article reeks of political agenda and seems false, feel free to get rid of the info and add a better description! ChubbyWimbus 01:20, 15 November 2009 (EST)
- Support wow, nice work, i have also considered nominting Mogadishu for a while, since it's one of our most loved articles, if twitter is anything to go for, but I've no idea how to push it the last stretch. This one is already there, very good content. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 17:49, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- If it is even possible to get it to guide status, given the difficulty of getting info about the city. How about Hargeisa, also in Somalia but DRASTICALLY safer, easier to visit, and very inviting to tourists. I read quite a bit about tourism in Kurdistan (Iraq) and looked through all its city articles, but only a couple (Dahuk & Arbil) were even at outline status and I knew I could not find enough info to bring them up to OtBP status. I would love to see some more articles from off-the-beaten-path countries. AHeneen 23:07, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Support Very good work. --Burmesedays 00:52, 19 November 2009 (EST)
- Support This article is great and offers a DotM that most people would rule out as a travel destination. jan 03:27, 20 November 2009 (EST)
- Maybe.... good work on the history section, that was much needed! However most of the listings in this article, especially the eat listings, were added years ago and I suspect are fairly outdated.... but I don´t know for sure. I worked on the few that I visited when I was there 3 years ago, but that wasn´t many. Also, for a destination such as this I think a good map is essential.... enough so that I would probably withold support until it has one. Re the question above about addresses, I don´t remember them being particularly relavent.... I don´t think taxi drivers use them much.... and I recall paying much more attention to intersections and dots on maps than addresses. Also about the bus stations.... I recall Kabul as fantastically complicated to get in and out of.... there are departure points scattered all over the place with minibuses headed to various locales.... tell a taxi driver where you want to go and he´ll take you to where the buses depart.... and probably get it wrong at least once – cacahuate talk 22:55, 19 December 2009 (EST)
- Remarkably, OSM  has good coverage of Kabul! It shouldn't be hard at all to put up a basic import, but someone other than me will need to choose what part of the city needs to be covered in the map. Better to do that at Talk:Kabul. --Peter Talk 00:30, 20 December 2009 (EST)
- Still no map, I won't be able to do it, but can give a little feedback and guidance to anyone else who is willing on Talk:Kabul – cacahuate talk 03:03, 26 April 2010 (EDT)
I was browsing when I saw this one. Although it's only at usable status, it has enough stuff for guide status--the only problem I see is the fact that nothing has an address. Not quite sure if it's a DOTM or OTBP, but I tend towards DOTM b/c it definitely has name recognition. Don't know much about time, other than Summer is a no. Rastapopulous 20:15, 18 November 2009 (EST)
- Support, obviously. Rastapopulous 20:21, 18 November 2009 (EST)
- Almost. A few things are needed first. In addition to looking up addresses, I think the article would need descriptions for the buy listings, and there are a few other significant mos issues related to content placement & section headers. Once those things are taken care of, I'd support it for OtBP—I don't think Death Valley is too often visited. Per the article's intro, Many potential visitors ignore the park.... --Peter Talk 20:47, 18 November 2009 (EST)
- I've never been there nor do I know the area, but I can probably do some addresses. Should there be coordinates for the sights in-park? Rastapopulous 20:49, 18 November 2009 (EST)
- So almost nothing actually has an address in Death Valley (even hotels and the like), but some things have GPS coordinates. Should those be used instead? Rastapopulous 17:32, 19 November 2009 (EST)
- Presumably even a hotel is on some road, and that road has a name, yes? Do you have an example of one that is not? LtPowers 17:57, 19 November 2009 (EST)
- Yes, they are on named roads, but Highway 190 South isn't a terribly useful address... Rastapopulous 18:01, 19 November 2009 (EST)
- Sure it is; it's at least half the information you need. =) No reason to leave it out, is there? LtPowers 09:59, 20 November 2009 (EST)
- I could certainly include it. However, I think I should add GPS coordinates too. Rastapopulous 10:50, 20 November 2009 (EST)
- I don't see why not; that's what the "lat" and "long" fields are for. LtPowers 13:02, 20 November 2009 (EST)
- Support I scheduled it for October because it is the start of the high season and it's enough time to finish the buy listings. jan 08:00, 19 April 2010 (EDT)
Superbly written and even better presented. Not far short of star quality. And a fine, interesting city to boot. In summer, of course. --Burmesedays 11:14, 21 December 2009 (EST)
- Support A nice article and looks like a great place to visit. The Drink section seems to be the longest in the article--is there a good reason for that (I guess this is England) or has every pub in the city been listed. A few "see" listings don't have an address/location. The Understand section in general could be lengthened...a lot of listings in the article are mentioned by district/street and so an "orientation" section would be useful; climate and more history (four sentences for 2000 years!?) would also be helpful additions to the article. Those few improvements aside, the article is very nice and I think it is a good choice to feature as DotM. As far as timing goes, would summer be best? There's three festivals that sound interesting in June, July, and August. AHeneen 21:53, 21 December 2009 (EST)
- Support Surprised I never noticed this one before. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 19:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)
- Support. This is pretty much exactly what we want from a featured article, it's a guide article in fine shape, covers an interesting destination, and immediately makes a compelling case for visiting. --Peter Talk 22:07, 22 December 2009 (EST)
Ooh, a non-city Chinese DOTM candidate! The information is all in there and pretty pictures too, although a little cleanup is needed (esp. Sleep). Jpatokal 20:51, 19 January 2010 (EST)
- Support. I really like this article. It does need more clean up as Jani says (I have already done a fair bit). Would be nice if one of our China hands completed the job. --Burmesedays 21:16, 19 January 2010 (EST)
- Support. Very nice article, with just a little bit of clean-up. In the intro the first thing mentioned that the park is famous for is pandas...any panda pics for the article or info on where to see them? AHeneen 23:31, 19 January 2010 (EST)
- Support. Great article! Especially considering we tend to have relatively few good park articles outside North America. If I may speak for those more or less Sino-illiterate, it looks like an OtBP, but I'll leave that decision to others. --Peter Talk 23:49, 19 January 2010 (EST)
- Support I definitely agree with AHeneen. If it is famous for its pandas, there should be picture of a panda (in the park) on the page. I also think the page could benefit from weeding out som pictures. I like the head image, and the Grass Lake, Mirror Lake, Suzheng Village. The other pictures could go (and add a panda), in my opinion. ChubbyWimbus 00:34, 20 January 2010 (EST)
- Panda picture yes, as that is why it is a UNESCO WHS, but let's keep it honest as the writer did. You have a close to zero chance of seeing one. I would imagine there are Snow Leopards there as well - you also won't see one. I will have a good dig later and come up with a representative flora and fauna section for the article. --Burmesedays 00:46, 20 January 2010 (EST)
- Peter made a good point: This park seems OtBP. I've been to China, but not here. Anyone know this park? Is it a DotM-worthy place or OtBP? ChubbyWimbus 21:33, 20 January 2010 (EST)
- With 2.5m visitors, it's obviously not OTBP to the Chinese, but a case could be made that it's OTBP for an English-speaking audience. (Not the first time this has popped up...) Jpatokal 03:39, 21 January 2010 (EST)
- Yup. And that's an issue that will crop up more and more. We have the same with Bromo. --Burmesedays 03:46, 21 January 2010 (EST)
- I have added a bit more about flora and fauna. We also need to look at the name of the article. I think it should be National Park and not Nature Reserve. Or we could use the Wikipedia solution which is Jiuzhaigou Valley. The latter might be best as much of the attraction for general visitors is the natural scenery, not the ecology. --Burmesedays 05:03, 21 January 2010 (EST)
- A couple more things: I think the hotel listings should be formatted properly. Also, I think the part about winter clothing in Stay Safe could be clarified a little (or just tie together the prose a little better). It reads oddly to me to have the extreme cold followed up with the fact that you may not need a coat in the "winter sunshine". Lastly, I think the Panda Falls picture could be cut and the Pearl Waterfall image put in its place, along with either the Five Flower Lake or the Arrow Bamboo Lake. Those two lake pictures look too similar to me, and I think having both of them sort of mutes the beauty of the place a little. ChubbyWimbus 01:39, 11 February 2010 (EST)
Anne has put a bunch of work into this guide lately, and I think it looks pretty great. It's a world heritage site and Guatemala's top city destination, so I think it would be fine dotm material.
Support. --Peter Talk 19:55, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
- Wow! This looks good! Is there a more appropriate place to put the "laundry" information aside from the Buy section? It really doesn't seem to belong there. 188.8.131.52 04:51, 1 April 2009 (EDT)
- It's normally a "Cope" topic, and I see that someone has moved it there. Support. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:19, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
- Support And again, nice to see dotm/otbp ready guides, outside our "core" areas' of North America and Asia. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 08:45, 1 April 2009 (EDT)
- Almost support. It is looking pretty good and has a ton of listings, but the see section is very weak, and should be one of the strongest. The article could also use a serious copyedit and a small beating with the MoS stick – cacahuate talk 17:52, 25 May 2009 (EDT)
- Update: needs even more cleanup after today's verbose additions – cacahuate talk 21:27, 31 May 2009 (EDT)
- Yeah, a lot of work has been put into the article post-nomination, which has added good content, but has also mangled the English and some of the structural style. It shouldn't take that much work to get this back up to a DotM level of polish, but that work should be done before we feature it. --Peter Talk 01:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
- I tried to work on MoS items. I posted a thought about currency usage on the discussion page and changed most entries to local currency but left some in USD since some prices/locations seem to accept USD quite easily.Zepppep 13:34, 21 January 2010 (EST)
- Support anew. I've restored this nomination from the slush pile, as I think Zepppep has resolved the outstanding issues, and this looks like it will be a good feature! --Peter Talk 15:44, 21 January 2010 (EST)
- Hmm... The "See" section still isn't Wikified. It lists worthwhile places ("La Catedral, el Palacio de los Gobernadores, Convento de Capuchinas, Convento de Santa Clara, el Arco de Santa Catarina, Iglesia La Merced and the Handcrafts Market") but shouldn't they each then be given their own listing? They are kind of glazed over, but if someone were to visit using our guide, I imagine they would want that extra information. ChubbyWimbus 01:34, 22 January 2010 (EST)
- Tentative support, as it is an interesting guide to a popular destination. But I would like to see some more work done on it. The first half looks a bit like an essay and would benefit from some sub-sections. A history sub-section is a glaring ommision from understand, when the destination is all about history. Most of the existing understand section could go into an orientation sub-section. Get in needs some categorisation. Perhaps split into "from the airport", "from Guatemala City" etc? I would support ChubbyWimbus' point about formalising attractions in the see section. Get out is very long and not really in line with the stated purpose of that section. All easy to put right I think. --Burmesedays 01:50, 22 January 2010 (EST)
A great guide article on a vibrant city which is really a hidden jewel in South West England. A very good place to visit in the summer when there are many exciting events and activities going on such as the Harbour Festival and Bristol Balloon Fiesta. Paulalatifa 10:20, 26 February 2010 (EST)
- Support. Nice article and definitely a very interesting city. Article needs a bit of polishing up and good to see that the nominator is doing some of that already. I would not though agree that it is a "hidden jewel" in any way - Bristol is the 4th most visited city in England.--Burmesedays 11:11, 1 March 2010 (EST)
- Thanks for the support. Doing my best on the editing, I am new to Wikitravel but just moved from the Netherlands to Bristol and thought WikiTravel would be a nice project. To me it really was a hidden jewel, especially because next to famous London, Stonehenge, Bath etcetera I really did not know anything about Bristol until I got here. Paulalatifa 05:37, 3 March 2010 (EST)
This article is an excellant, very comprehensive guide to an amazing city. —The preceding comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs)
- Almost support. It's actually fairly close, to my pleasant surprise! But there are a few issues holding it back from quite reaching guide status, including the lack of buy listings. If you are interested in fixing the article up a bit, please let me know and I'll provide a bit more guidance on the article's talk page! It would be great to feature such a beautiful, important, and fascinating city, so I hope we can in the near future. --Peter Talk 20:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- Not yet. The whole article is nice and comprehensive, but the See section is very messy and clearly incomplete. Several important sights, such as the House with Chimeras, are just missing. And Hreschatik is more than "the main drag of the city centre".
- By the way, this brings another question. Kiev is a large and a rich city. Should it be districtified? If yes, this will probably delay the nomination for quite a while... Atsirlin 16:09, 28 April 2010 (EDT)
- Ultimately, yes, it most certainly should have districts. I think it's OK, though, to feature before they are implemented, as long as the article is a strong guide—and it's not quite there yet. —The preceding comment was added by Peterfitzgerald (talk • contribs)
- One more thing that came to my mind: what about the season? I think, this should be spring, the blossoming period. If so, one can interrupt the discussion for half a year and see what comes out till then. Atsirlin 12:03, 30 April 2010 (EDT)
- Nearly. Peter has identified the key omission. Otherwise, a bit of a spring clean and this would make an excellent DotM I think.--Burmesedays 22:01, 28 April 2010 (EDT)
- Don't Support Basedi on the districtification comments, if we anticipate Kiev having so much to see/do that it needs districts, then this article must be highly incomplete, because it is nowhere near ready for districtification. If the city really has that much left out, then I would rather not feature it until it has its districts. ChubbyWimbus 09:35, 30 April 2010 (EDT)
- Well, don't take my comment too serious. The present version is reasonably close to a "one day in Kiev" guide that obviously does not need any districts. However, this will not be a full guide to Kiev. Atsirlin 12:03, 30 April 2010 (EDT)
A huge touristic destination, and a very complete article as well. --220.127.116.11 14:19, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Don't Support The lack of consensus on how to districtify this article is a problem. Also, it has been nominated as a Collaboration of the Month . These concerns need to be addressed before Barcelona can be considered.ChubbyWimbus 00:05, 29 April 2010 (EDT)
A pretty popular destination, and a good article --18.104.22.168 17:06, 5 May 2010 (EDT)
- Don't Support The "See" section needs to be written with the proper format. Currently, it is not much more than a redirect to other websites. Other sections (such as "Eat") are also suffering from lack of information and formatting. If you're up to the task of improving it, have a look at the Wikitravel:Manual of style to see exactly how listings should look. You may also want to have a look at the Previous Destinations of the month for examples of articles that have been featured.ChubbyWimbus 17:29, 5 May 2010 (EDT)
- Don't Support. A badly formatted article which is very incomplete and does no justice to a really interesting city.--Burmesedays 02:50, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
- Don't Support. For the reasons given above, and also becasue it's so close to Newcastle-upon-Tyne which looks like it will be featured shortly. Hopefully this nomination will spur a few people to work on it though. It's a great destination so if we can get the guide up to scratch perhaps it could feature in a year or two. Tarr3n 05:05, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
A pretty good article. --22.214.171.124 11:37, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
Don't Support (Yet). Good article and seems pretty comprehensive however Understand seems way too long and a lot of the listings need some MOS work. Tarr3n 05:14, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
A nice article. --126.96.36.199 11:57, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
Strong support. Largely due to Globe-trotter's enormous recent work on these articles, Bangkok has become one of our best huge city guides. Great feature. --Peter Talk 12:02, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
- Don't Support This article was already featured in January 2005, and our guidelines state, "The nominated article must not have been featured previously." ChubbyWimbus 16:37, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
- Bangkok is ineligible for the reason ChubbyWimbus describes, although perhaps the strongest district article could be featured instead? At a glance, I'd say that's Rattanakosin, but Thonburi is also good. Gorilla Jones 17:15, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
- Indeed. It seems a shame to disqualify it, since the article bears little resemblance to the short page featured five years ago .
- The Rattanakosin article is excellent, but I have mixed feelings about featuring a district of a city that has already been featured, unless it has a character sufficiently distinct from what people think of when they think of the city—I think it would work best to choose an "OtBP district" with a good does of individual character. Previously suggested Chicago/Bronzeville as well as Copenhagen/Christiania would be good examples of what I mean. For Bangkok, I would say this would be Yaowarat and Pahurat, which is ready save the eat and drink sections. --Peter Talk 09:01, 9 May 2010 (EDT)
Great article. --188.8.131.52 12:02, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
- Indeed, but I think LtPowers is still working on it. Maybe it would be better to wait for him to nominate it once he thinks it's ripe. --Peter Talk 21:48, 11 May 2010 (EDT)
- Missed this somehow. I'm almost done with the district articles, and then I can get to work polishing up the main article. I know that featured articles don't have to be stars, but that's what I'm shooting for and I'd like to wait at least until I'm reasonably certain that the quality is up there before featuring it. LtPowers 22:51, 11 May 2010 (EDT)
Don't Support - I know the arguments about attraction v destination have been done to death in the past wrt Disneyworld, and the article does look very, very good even if a lot of the prose reads a bit "corporate" for my taste. However I don't think we should be featuring a commercial attraction as DotM. Fair enough it would be a tiny drop in a huge ocean as far as Disney's publicity is concerned but in my view it's still too much. Tarr3n 05:01, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
Nominations for Off the Beaten Path
I noticed it in the Star nomination slush pile and thought it had potential to make it as an Off the Beaten Track candidate. ChubbyWimbus 03:05, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
- Support. This seems up to OtBP standards to me. And the objections last time around were fairly minor—I'm actually surprised that it was slushed, rather than moved to OtBP. Usually I'd nuke the tour operators, but Guatemala can be a hairy place, I suppose. (And I don't know enough about it to judge which ones to remove. --Peter Talk 03:41, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
- Moderate support. Having visited it a few months ago, I realized how far off my old dreams of star status for Flores were. Unfortunately a lost passport thwarted my plans of making it an awesome star article while I was in town. Many of the listings are not on the map, and I think several of them may not even exist anymore, but I made a new map today and placed as much as I could. It is a decent article, but it can get a lot better.... and is still way behind LP's coverage ;) It would also be ideal for the Tikal article to be up to guide status, since that's the reason 90% of Flores' visitors are here (and if it were up to status, I would propose it instead). But I think it may suffice if nothing better comes along – cacahuate talk 15:14, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
Don't support Neutral - I ran into this a while ago, while looking for candidates outside our usual areas' (Asia & North America), and considered nominating it - but decided against it since I found a lot of the information really lagging. A good example is the do listings "rent a canoe/hire a covered boat" fine, but some listings - or in case it's to disorganised for listings, some information on where to do this/how much should I pay, would be nice. and Wes' comments above just add's to that. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 15:52, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
Thanks to User:Globe-trotter, this page looks really great! At a glance, the only thing I can see that it needs is pictures. ChubbyWimbus 01:20, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Wow—Globe-trotter did a lot of work this week! It looks great. More pictures would certainly be nice, but I think it's already up to OtBP standards. --Peter Talk 04:04, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
- Thanks a lot for the nomination! :) You are right about the pictures, I came home yesterday and will try to make some and add them to the page. Globe-trotter 15:17, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
- Support Preferably with, but also without extra images. Very complete, and jaw-dropping maps :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:06, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Amazing work! What's the best time for this, spring? Jpatokal 22:34, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
- I'd say April-September is the best climate here, in the winter it's not so pleasant cycling or walking around. Globe-trotter 10:10, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
- I added some pictures, and I'll add some more later on. Globe-trotter 19:33, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
Wow, this old mining town in North-western Sweden must be one of the best destination guides in Scandinavia! Very nearly a star even. I think many people explore our previously off the beaten path guides, so featuring it more prominently might push it the last stretch. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:21, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Amazing article! Jpatokal 08:06, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Very good article indeed. --Burmesedays 10:05, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
- Chuckle. I'm in China and the Great Firewall won't let me read that article. Pashley 10:11, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
- G-O-N-G! :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 10:13, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support Good article that should be featured in late spring or early summer. jan 13:56, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support. A shame Jake forswore future mapmaking—that's a nice one! --Peter Talk 19:08, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support. Superb photos, a map, and tight formatting. Nothing not to like. Gorilla Jones 23:09, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
Surprisingly, there are not many American nominees, and if I'm not mistaken, this would be the first feature from Pennsylvania. Because the OtBP's operate from the 15 of each month, this would be best featured in September so that it would cover Applefest in early October. ChubbyWimbus 00:11, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
- Support I thought support by the nominator was implied, but I guess most people also give support below, so I'll do the same. ChubbyWimbus 15:49, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Support - would like some section introductions, but it's up to scratch, and a nice example of what small-town, USA articles could be. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 17:55, 14 November 2009 (EST)
- Meh I'm not sure there's enough things to see/do to justify featuring it as an OtBP. The way I imagine OtBP is featuring little-known places that WT browsers would want to travel from far away to visit. While Franklin seems like a nice place to stop by if I were traveling through, there's nothing spectacular about the town that I feel warrants it any special recognition. It has a church (as if there aren't hundreds of historic churches in the Northeast/Midwest), a couple small museums (none noteworthy), and a racetrack (again, not a noteworthy one). Everything else in see & do sections can be found in most small towns...park, ice rink, theater, bowling alleys. Plus, almost every small town in the Northeast/Midwest hosts some kind of fall festival. So, in my opinion, it's just another non-noteworthy small town. Use this for OtBP as a last resort only. AHeneen 00:19, 6 December 2009 (EST)
- I am sort of with AHeneen on this one. Well written and presented but it is just not very interesting. Why would the article make anybody go there? The first thing you read is that there are cheap flights from Cleveland. An understand section would help I guess. I am all for American articles being nominated but I would have thought there are more captivating articles than this one? --Burmesedays 00:35, 6 December 2009 (EST)
- I have wondered the same about some destinations, but we have featured Spring Green (there is less to do there than in Franklin, and I don't imagine international tourists wanting to plan a trip there. It looks like a place of interest to domestic tourists that have never heard of it before). The cities of Sligo and Saint Martins Island also seem to have nothing really to do or see, but they were featured. Is this article somehow worse than those? I guess I was under the impression that all cities that can sustain an article would be able to become DotM or OtBP once the article was up to standard. I think some OtBPs are the "hidden gems"-type of destinations and other cities may be more "if you're in the area, you may want to check out this city"-type of destinations. Do you think the second type should not be featured? ChubbyWimbus 16:24, 6 December 2009 (EST)
- I can't agree with those comparisons, since they all have pretty clear angles. Spring Green is utterly bizarre, and a real top destination for American architecture fans—worth making the 3 hour trek from Chicago; Sligo is one of our nine Irish cities, and the principal population center in the northwest of Ireland, through which anyone in the area will likely pass; and St Martins Island is a tropical paradise, and one of our only 5 ODs for Bangladesh. These aren't simply useful articles, they're things that pique interest in trips (and in using our guides on those trips). The one tiny PA town that would fit that angle that I can think of would be the ever ridiculous Punxsutawney (if it were a good article).
- The Franklin guide looks like a great one for anyone passing through the area, but is there a reason why people would seek it out? Per our criteria, personal affection for the destination isn't a valid reason to oppose a nomination, but I'd still like to remind of the consideration that the DotM/OtBP's sole purpose here is to get people interested in the site. It would at least be nice if the article had an understand section highlighting what makes the town really unique/important and worth seeking out. IMO, though, this is the kind of article I'd rather see pushed to star status (since it would be a nice example of how to properly do a small US town) than featured as a dotm.
- Also, I think these two factoids need to make it into that article ;) --Peter Talk 16:57, 6 December 2009 (EST)
- But even from as close as Pennsylvania, I can't imagine anyone planning a trip just to visit Spring Green. It just wouldn't seem worth it unless you were also going somewhere else. I agree that Spring Green looks interesting, but a three hour trip from Chicago is still a nice day trip. People make similar trips to Franklin from Buffalo. I would be surprised if people from Europe, Asia, etc. planned special trips just to go to either Spring Green or Franklin. That's why I think it's like Franklin, not because it's "boring". I thought it was a "cute" feature.
- At any rate, to answer your question about "Why should someone visit Franklin?", people typically visit Franklin to view all of the Victorian architecture, get away from the city/see some nature, and to see the church (although AHaneen considers it to be like any other "historic" church, I think it's more liked than many American historic churches, because the windows are the focus rather than the history. Of course, those who don't like Tiffany will likely not be impressed). I don't know if that makes it sound any better... Franklin is part of the Oil Region (where oil was first discovered/drilled in North America and the Standard Oil Company was founded), so a visit to Franklin usually entails a visit to Titusville and maybe Oil City or Pithole. Probably if this were being featured with Titusville or as Venango County, its value and interest to travelers would be more evident.
- I will work on adding some sort of "Understand" information, as there is actually no mention of the Victorian houses, and only small allusions are made to the oil history, which are both important. Feel free to add more critiques, though. I don't think it's that far off from a star, although there is no map. ChubbyWimbus 02:50, 14 December 2009 (EST)
Okay, I added an understand section that *may* make the page more appealing. I also added the "Walking Tours", since the architecture is so popular, and taking the tour would likely make visiting much more interesting. Does it need something more? ChubbyWimbus 21:38, 23 December 2009 (EST)
- I quite like the article now, I don't see the reason why not to support it. I think this is the charm of Wikitravel: it features destinations that no other travel guide would ever think of. globe-trotter 20:19, 7 January 2010 (EST)
- Now Support. Well done ChubbyWimbus with the changes. I suggest one this is ear-marked for September 2010. --Burmesedays 21:29, 7 January 2010 (EST)
This one is dear to me, my first feeble edits on Wikitravel was to the Korsakov guide, while sitting at the post office desperately trying to figure out where the hell I could by tickets for the ferry to Japan, information which it turned out was impossible to find anywhere both off and online. After a nice Russian grandpa type (who didn't speak any English) working in the harbour spend half a day helping me to find the small hidden-away office selling tickets, I got involved in Wikitravel, hoping to save other adventurers the same trouble. After that experience I'm quite confident that our information Sakhalin is unrivalled anywhere on the internet! (at least in English), it's certainly leaps and bounds ahead of my Lonely Planet guide.
You may find some sections of the Okha and Alexandrovsk-Sakhalinsky guides deceptively empty, but trust me, it has taken many hours of work, ploughing through books and Russian websites just to get the sections filled up with what's there now - I think the hotel in Alexandrovsk alone took 4-5 hours just to find an address and phone number. Many of the pictures are results of personal requests to get them released under the CC licence, I'm especially happy about the reindeer picture, Thanks Aleut!. The Literature section on the main article are waiting for Mr Fitzgerald to finish reading up on Anton Chekov, but it's easily fixed, or the section can always be removed before a feature. The reason I'm suggesting it now, is I want to swap it in for April or May, when the mountains go light green over the dark volcanic rocks - it looks amazing!
I want to try to do it as a double feature, also linking to Russia to Japan via Sakhalin itinerary in the OtBP blurb text, so please check that one for any show stoppers as well. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 15:53, 9 January 2010 (EST)
- Support. It's a great work. Something about Russia that should be translated from English into Russian, and not the other way around. The information on the web about Sakhalin is indeed scarce, so the articles look fairly complete. Still, I should say that searching for the hotel in Alexandrovsk took me less than one minute (maybe, things changed). If you feel that it is worth to do more search through Russian websites, I can try this. It will also be a pleasure for me to do the translatations for Russian version of Wikitravel. Atsirlin 17:25, 9 January 2010 (EST)
- He, it probably helps when you're not forced to rely on robots, any help on making those two cities look more complete in the eat, drink and buy sections will obviously be much appreciated. :o) Though, Peter had many problems as well, and he speaks Russian. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 18:30, 9 January 2010 (EST)
- It's tricky. You should scan through numerous travel reports (mainly from backpackers), and you have to know where to find them. OK, I will try, and let's see what comes out. At first glance, I can see that you missed one important thing about the ferry: it is strongly subject to weather conditions, especially in winter time. Once or twice a year these ferries just stop for a week (it is a disaster, because cars and goods get jammed in Vanino). I will start to translate the articles and will try to add things on-the-fly. Atsirlin 07:46, 10 January 2010 (EST)
- OK, I have found this thing in the Kholmsk article, but the warning about the unstable ferry schedule should be stronger, I guess. Atsirlin 07:54, 10 January 2010 (EST)
- Support. Great guide, and probably the only great guide, to a fascinating OtBP destination. And ah, I forgot about the lit section—I was about to do that before the drawn-out DDOS attack ;) --Peter Talk 17:31, 9 January 2010 (EST)
- Support I think you did a good self-assessment though with the need for descriptions in most of the "Eat" sections. Because the individual cities on the island do not offer much on their own, I think it is important for what is there to be complete (as far as descriptions go). Okha could also be improved with a picture or two (if possible).
- For the Russia to Japan via Sakhalin article, I wonder if it needs a "Get out" section. If so, I guess that would just be a list of cities near the terminus Wakkanai? I think the article is great with coverage of how to make the trip. The article is meant to be only about the transportation, right? I ask only because it doesn't suggest what to do in each city along the way as an "itinerary" ChubbyWimbus 19:18, 9 January 2010 (EST)
- I have 3 requests out for permission to use some images for Okha under CC, but no replies so far, and it's months since I send them emails. There are also many good pictures on Panoramio, but the one request I made have gotten no response either (probably doesn't speak any English). There are no usable CC licensed ones available at all (at least that I can find).
- As for itinirary, yes only transportation, I wanted to leave what to see etc. to the actual guides, think it works better there. I'll try to get Khabarovsk and Wakkanai up to usable before a feature, just as a show-off :) --Stefan (sertmann) talk 19:32, 9 January 2010 (EST)
- Support. Very, very interesting article. --Burmesedays 06:28, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Just got back from a trip there and even after traveling a lot, was still impressed. Put a great deal of what I saw and learned in to heavily expanding the article. I think that in six months more can probably be added to make it worthy of a feature. Or maybe it's an OTBP instead? Not sure. Whatever the case, if it doesn't make it in to the rotation, my feelings will certainly not be hurt, although it is a very, very cool place. --Primecoordinator 10:54, 05 April 2010 (UTC)
- This should be at the bottom of the list, not top - moved. I would have thought a cast iron OtbP, rather than DotM.--Burmesedays 10:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
- Almost support. I would love to see Dogon Country featured, especially since that article was frustratingly not even created until last December, languishing as a red link on my wishlist! The one obstacle is the empty Bandiagara article. If we could improve that article to a strong usable, then this would be a great feature. And I definitely agree that this should be OtBP—while very well known in Africa travel circles, it's still pretty far out of the way. --Peter Talk 11:35, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
- Support Sorry, didn't realize and still don't really understand how the order of this page is to work. Figured if I stuck it at the top, someone would put it somewhere better ;) So, then it should be an OtbP instead. makes sense. There are a lot of question marks up top, so I'll leave it to whomever to either move it to an earlier month of just move it across to October. And I have expanded Bandiagara out a good deal. Still slim, but a lot more there now. Maybe someone else can find a few more items. It's a small town, so it's bound to remain pretty small. --Primecoordinator 22:57, 05 April 2010 (UTC)
- Is there anything that can be said about each of the villages aside from whether or not they have housing? The "See" section should probably say more. If descriptions of the villages were added, perhaps they could even be moved to the "See" section? I personally always think it's strange if the "See" section is lacking information. It makes it seem like the area is boring, but clearly this is a major destination in West Africa and well worth the visit. I am not sure if Dogon County is OtBP... I know I've said this before, but I don't like always making Africa OtBP. It's a well-known destination for those familiar with Africa; and more famous worldwide than Hamamatsu, I would say. I think it is a nice DotM. ChubbyWimbus 01:18, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- I agree, Dogon Country should certainly be a DotM as it is one of the most popular attractions in West Africa. AHeneen 03:51, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- Well, I just moved it, although it can definitely be moved back. I think that the issue of it being in Africa would apply more if it were Bamako, Abidjan, Nairobi, Dakar, etc. Those are DotM and it's true that as Dogon is 12-14 hours by bus from Bamako it takes some effort to get to. I'll work on the Abidjan article and see if I can get it in to shape to be a DotM as it's quite a happening city with direct service from major airports, whereas Dogon has none. --Primecoordinator 16:38, 06 April 2010 (UTC)
- Don't support (yet) I would like to see this featured, but the article still needs a lot more information. Featured articles should be at guide status and while length is no indicator of an article's quality, I feel Dogon Country still needs much more information. According to the Wikitravel:Region guide status, a guide region "gives you different choices for which linked destinations (i.e., cities, subregions, and other destinations lists) to visit (all usable status or better), and information on multiple attractions and things to do...All important ways to get in are detailed, along with some suggestions for moving out, and thorough information on getting around." Since culture is what attracts so many to Dogon Country (although there's really no "stereotypical" Dogon culture), I think the understand section should contain an overview of the cultural facets which make DC so appealing to visitors (masks, gender roles, animism, etc) along with some history & info on the architecture. The see/do sections need to be expanded and I feel information about hiking and finding a guide and starting needs to be together. The "guide to guides" can be condensed a little and should go under "Get around" along with other info on hiking (ie. where to start info now listed under get in). Finally, a mention of the Festival des Danses des Masques is essential along with info about it. I have a (slightly outdated...2005) Bradt Guide to Mali which has much of this information...I just need to not be lazy one evening and fill in some of this missing info (there's 3 pages about Bandiagara). Until then, the official DC tourism website is here and has some useful info. The best time to visit (and thus feature DC) is between November & February (cool and dry), which is perfect as it's winter in the Northern Hemisphere and we usually have a lack of good choices for DotM/OtBP then and it gives us time to get DC to guide status. AHeneen 03:51, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- Sounds like you've had a lot of experience there. I don't really have too much more to add to the article as I poured out everything I had gotten from my trip. I hope you find some time to add all this in. And I think that October would be the perfect month as most people need info in the month before the trip,so if November if the start of the busy season, October makes sense to run it then. --Primecoordinator 16:43, 06 April 2010 (UTC)
- It surely has to be OtbP? How many visitors who are not fairly grizzled travelers go to Dogon country? Or have even heard of it? In 2005 (latest I could find) there were only 80,000 foreign arrivals to the whole of Mali. I would imagine a large number of those were business, government and NGO travelers. Of the balance, some would have gone to Dogon country. If this isn't OtbP, I am not sure what is. --Burmesedays 05:01, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- Saw a lot of poshy, older package folks when I was there. A lot of it is just off the road or down a slightly bumpy dirt road, which is easy to get to if you can stand the heat. Then there are the 12km hikes down the cliff that I did which are more for those with an adventurous spirit... Still, I think OtbP probably makes more sense. --Primecoordinator 16:46, 06 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's more famous than many of our DotMs: I mentioned Hamamatsu, but Shimla, Bergen, Medellin, Okayama, Bayreuth; Not exactly world-reknown destinations, either. Maybe I am atypical, but Dogon County seems much more famous than any of those. Tourism statistics can only do so much, anyway, because Africa will almost always lose if we are comparing it to Europe or America, who have the money to travel. Timbuktu is in Mali, and it's name is very famous, thanks to that quote. I'd call that DotM, but the statistics argument could be made against it, as well. Bandiagara is one of Africa's best known World Heritage Sites. It made our "Top Nine Other destinations" on the Continental page. If our top nine can't even be DotM, then I don't know what would qualify... ChubbyWimbus
- I'm pretty sure Timbuktu is a byword/cliche for remote? Among people who think a lot about West African tourism, Dogon Country is a popular wishlist destination, at least, but it's pretty far off any path that even reasonably approaches a beaten look. That's one of the reasons why I'd love to visit. This place could get ruined quickly by serious tourism. I'd say the only destination in Mali that could plausibly be DotM would be Bamako, as that is a big, bustling city. If you look through our previous OtBPs you'll see plenty that are much better known and far more visited, like Mesa Verde, Panmunjeom, Denali, or, hell, even Dalian. There's always room for debate at the margins, but I'm a little surprised that this one is drawing any. --Peter Talk 20:13, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- I think that there is also a secondary issue in that people aren't too keen to support it if the article isn't near Star quality, which, unless someone steps up to bat, it will probably stay. By the way, is there a tag to put on an article that's up for DotM or OtbP? Might get more people to work on it if there's the chance it could be featured. Otherwise, it seems like the same 10 or so people working on most of the articles. --Primecoordinator 22:09, 06 April 2010 (UTC)
- Nah, star quality is definitely not needed, especially for a OtBP. It just needs to be squarely at guide status, and that's a little shaky at present. Shouldn't be too hard to fix, especially as there are a bunch of people interested in it. --Peter Talk 20:13, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- You would really place Bamako above Dogon Country? I see your point that it's not exactly the type of place you can hop on a bus and go in 10 minutes, but I think it's fame extends far beyond Mali's borders. As you said, those who know West Africa know Dogon Country (and often want to go there), and I'd still venture to say those who know Africa as a whole know Dogon Country/Bandiagara. Hamamatsu isn't even that popular among those interested in Japan, and I doubt most people interested in the broader East Asia have heard of it. Medellin doesn't bring anything to my mind, and neither does Bergen (I don't think the nation itself is known for much more than fjords outside of Europe) yet somehow a destination that is actually known is being questioned simply because it's African? I don't see why we have such loose rules on what can be DotM in Europe/Japan, yet we take such a hard-line approach with Africa. Africa isn't Europe, and it shouldn't have to be. It's major attractions may not be engulfed by cities, but since when was that a requirement for DotM? I was/am surprised that there is opposition to this as DotM; It seemed like a clear-cut example of an African DotM to me. ChubbyWimbus 22:37, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
- Absolutely, this isn't just about fame (and I don't really think Dogon Country is so famous—I'd wager that if you asked every last English speaker, <1% would know what it was, and I'm absolutely including your average world traveler). The paths leading to Dogon are not beaten—it's a tiny place quite purposefully in the middle of nowhere in a country with very few tourists. I know there's a bit of sensitivity to the fact that African destinations are more likely to be listed as OtBPs than destinations in other continents, but a) I don't see how that can apply for this one, when it is similar to our Mesa Verde OtBP (a popular American cliffside village), and b) Africa simply is a less-visited continent. (And to me, this is a plus.) --Peter Talk 22:56, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
It was recommended that I nominate the Kununurra article for an OtBP, so here goes. I've just finished bringing it up to guide status. The peak season is during the dry season from April to October so round about now would be close to the ideal time of the year. - 05:18, 15 April 2010 (EDT)
- Support, with the proviso that the Understand section needs a bit of restructuring. The opening para (which I have just re-written a little) is almost repeated in the history sub-section. That little quibble aside, it is a lovely article about an amazing area. I have passed through Kununurra twice while outback-bashing and it is indeed a charming little place, surrounded by rugged natural beauty. This would make a great OtbP feature. As an aside it also highlights the very good work being done by Cardboardbird on our Western Australia articles. --Burmesedays 05:43, 15 April 2010 (EDT)
- Support. Whoa! Great OtBP article! Not too far off from a star nomination, actually, I'd say. --Peter Talk 23:43, 15 April 2010 (EDT)
- I've placed it into August and moved Ravello to October in order to break up the European cluster in the summer. If anyone objects, we can discuss it. ChubbyWimbus 00:18, 16 April 2010 (EDT)
- There's discussion on the talk page on scheduling issues, which are of immediate importance because we're over a day late on switching the OtBP because Kawasaki isn't ready. LtPowers 07:32, 16 April 2010 (EDT)
- Support Good article but i would benefit if it had a map. I was surprised to read about the border and it would be helpful for orientation. Also two Get out entries are red (=empty) article. Maybe someone with a bit of a knowledge fills them with basic infos.jan 07:52, 19 April 2010 (EDT)
- Support. Jpatokal 19:12, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
Although Australia is a very turistical country, Adelaide is not one of the country's biggest attractions. The article is very complete --184.108.40.206 13:44, 26 April 2010 (EDT)
- Adelaide is by no stretch of the imagination Off the beaten Path. Any nomination should be as Destination of the Month. Maybe you meant to put it there?--Burmesedays 22:30, 26 April 2010 (EDT)
- Not Yet I think proper formatting would be good for this article, but even beyond that, the "See" section needs reworked. If the linked (and redlinked) areas are cities outside of Adelaide, then they should be in the "Get out" section. If they are in Adelaide city, they should be put in proper format and more information needs to be provided. Many of the entries are just names of museums. If you know the city, it probably wouldn't take much to get it up to standard, but I think there is still work to be done. ChubbyWimbus 22:52, 26 April 2010 (EDT)
- Not yet and is also not OtbP. Adelaide is a charming city and one I have enjoyed visiting a couple of times. I am not sure his article captures that charm very well. The Understand, See and Do sections need a fair bit of work I think.
I am on a hunt for non-European OtbP candidates, and am surpised that Kakadu has not been nominated previously. Wonderful place, good article. --Burmesedays 03:48, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Support It's an interesting destination with a well written article. Only the amount of boxes is slightly over the top. jan 04:11, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
Why not, after all? A valid guide-level article, and absolutely not only for April 1. --DenisYurkin 15:58, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Before proceeding with support/opposition, this was nominated in 2007 and received the critique that many of the listed opperators do not actually allow civilians to go to space . If this remains true, then perhaps it is still not ready for nomination. Does anyone know? ChubbyWimbus 16:13, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Irrelevant -- "Any destination, region, itinerary or event that passes the "What is an article?" test is eligible for DotM/OtBP." Of course, if there are inaccuracies re: operators, they should be fixed.
- My personal opinion, though, is that we should hold off on Space until Virgin Galactic starts flying in a year or two and the destination becomes slightly more approachable. $100k ain't cheap, but it's not utterly within the realm of fantasy in the way that a $20m trip is... Jpatokal 19:11, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Judging from your response, I'd say that discussion is just as relevant now as it was then. You are concerned that we are featuring a destination that people can't realistically visit, which is basically what is expressed in the discussion, and your own response could be refuted with the information you've cited. ChubbyWimbus 19:29, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Not exactly. Jani was just saying that there is a better time to feature this article: when Virgin Galactic "launches." It's best to feature articles when there is buzz about them, when they are in the news. → more hits for our site. We have already featured destinations not everyone can get to, like Wake Island (which was a great feature, IMO). --Peter Talk 22:00, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Strongly oppose. Perhaps the 2.5 hour trip will become as "cheap" as US$ 100,000 (currently reckoned to be more like US$ 200,000 I think), all of which goes on burning more fuel than a decent sized town manages in a day. I cannot think of a more self-indulgent, destructive and pointless travel idea; nobody should be recommending this.--Burmesedays 22:28, 27 April 2010 (EDT)
- Although I can't disagree with any of your points, we can't bar features for moral reasons, and that would be a slippery slope. Places like Amsterdam, Bangkok, or Las Vegas could easily be described as "self-indulgent, destructive" destinations. ChubbyWimbus 03:36, 28 April 2010 (EDT)
- Oppose until Virgin actually starts to fly most public available offers are either limited to abundance of money or scientific staff. French Novespace  is one of the few who regularly does it for official space agencies and invited guest. Let's wait a couple of years. jan 04:15, 28 April 2010 (EDT)
- Just a reminder, neither disdain for a destination/topic nor scheduling matters are grounds for an actual oppose vote per the #Select guidelines. I'm all for slushing this, though, and bringing it back during a more opportune news cycle, per Jani's suggestion. --Peter Talk 01:05, 29 April 2010 (EDT)
- Of course it doesn't count, but the opinion remains :) --Burmesedays 01:28, 29 April 2010 (EDT)
- Don't Support I do think that when the timing is years off, there are grounds for not supporting a nomination (having nominations that we can't actually feature cluttering up the page only give a false sense of options to feature). Beyond that, though, I think some of the links to Earth sites really need to be improved. I mean, this is pretty much an OtBP that we would feature just because it's "interesting" and "cool" rather than a realistic destination. Also, I think more could be said about preparations, what you can/will see and do, etc. This was written by people who have never actually been to space, is it not? Sections are rather sparse, and I think there is expertise needed to make this a real guide and possible feature that we just don't have. I would honestly only call this a "usable" guide. ChubbyWimbus 03:03, 29 April 2010 (EDT)
- Support It's a good article. Why not? --220.127.116.11 17:09, 5 May 2010 (EDT)
A good guide article. --18.104.22.168 15:44, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
- Not quite. The buy section is very weak, and both the bars and restaurants really need descriptions, but the most important omission is information about the Old City! That should be a good, long section of "See," as it is the city's main attraction, and simply because there is so much to be said! --Peter Talk 21:01, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
A not well-known national park in the U.S.A., and a nice guide article. --22.214.171.124 11:49, 8 May 2010 (EDT)