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User talk:OldPine/Archives1

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Welcome to Wikitravel. If you want to specialize your experience you may want to consider editing your preferences. Please take a second to look at our copyleft and policies and guidelines, but feel free to plunge forward and edit some pages. Scanning the Manual of style, especially the article templates, can give you a good idea of how we like articles formatted. If you're new to the whole wiki community look at the Wiki markup to get an idea of how to use the wiki markup. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, and if you need some info not on there, post a message in the travellers' pub. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 16:41, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

Good Job![edit]

Hay, good job on Plymouth (Massachusetts). You have got that article looking really good. Keep up the good work. Thanks! -- Tom Holland (xltel) 18:06, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

Thanks. I think I'm hooked!OldPine 07:11, 1 June 2006 (EDT)
Hi David,
I just wanted to let you in on a secret if you want to sign your name type ~~~~ This will help us track your comments, so that someone may answer any questions you have or continue a discussion on your talk page. Plus, your signature will look like this when you type the four tides. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 22:10, 31 May 2006 (EDT)
Excellent! Thanks, Tom! The </nowiki>is new to me, too. That's what I get for plunging. What's policy on using WikiPedia material? Is it an affiliated org?OldPine 07:10, 1 June 2006 (EDT)
Unfortunately we can't use Wikipedia material on Wikitravel. The problem is the licenses are not compatible. For Wikipedia the license is Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike and Wikipedia is GDFL. -- Tom Holland (xltel) 07:22, 1 June 2006 (EDT)
10-4, Thanks again.OldPine 07:45, 1 June 2006 (EDT)


We can however link to Wikipedia articles, providing the article is appropriate to the Wikitravel article. To link to Wikipedia all you have to do is type this: [[WikiPedia:Articlename]] at the bottom of the article page. This will provide a link on the left hand side of the screen, below the search button. For example look at the left hand side of the Holy Land article. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:13, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

I see. Thanks, Andrew. It's OK to use a link in the text as well or is that to be avoided? OldPine 13:19, 1 June 2006 (EDT)
It can be. The best thing to do is look over Wikitravel:External links. I recommend not actually linking the way the article does, because it creates a problem for people using a printed version of Wikitravel. I'd suggest linking like this CNN [], which looks like this CNN [1].
Ditto on all the Kudos! Great work... Regarding Wikipedia links, I just wanted to make sure you'd seen Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia. Hope this helps! Majnoona 22:39, 2 June 2006 (EDT)
oooh... I love it when someone drops homework in my User Page! No, I seriously do. Thanks, Maj. OldPine 22:50, 2 June 2006 (EDT)

Bass River[edit]

Just FYI, I have (temporarily?) reverted your edit to Bass River proposing it for deletion. There are two reasons. First, the norm is to put the proposal first on the Wikitravel:Votes for deletion page, and only then, to apply the VFD banner to the subject page -- normally putting that banner in front of whatever is already there, rather than just wiping it out (unless there's a problem with spam, copyvio, etc.). Second, at the moment, those of us who don't live in the area don't really have good info by which to judge whether deletion is appropriate or not. Suppose you could drop in on Talk:Bass River and address the questions I posed there? That would be very helpful in enabling an informed decision as to whether to delete. Thanks for your help, including all the good stuff you've done for other Cape Cod destinations. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:49, 2 June 2006 (EDT)

Sure. Sorry, I knew I was doing that backwards and mean to go do the vote, but I suppose in my heart I just hoped some admin would say, "Yeah, that's nuts." I'll just delete that. OldPine 14:55, 2 June 2006 (EDT)
No prob. Based on your description, I think this is not something that should be deleted, and it certainly is not a candidate for "speedy" deletion by one of us admins. But the ultimate disposition is worth some discussion. You might check out Wikitravel:What is an article? to help with that, and address some of the questions that that article poses. (Parenthetically, I am confronting a similar issue regarding the townlet where I myself live...) -- Bill-on-the-Hill 15:04, 2 June 2006 (EDT)

Regarding your "since apologies for all the fuss" comment, no apologies needed at all! It would be great if we had more people with local knowledge working to help keep things organized around here! Besides, it takes a bit of time to figure out how things get done on this site, so everyone is pretty used to working with new contributors to help figure things out. -- Ryan 15:24, 2 June 2006 (EDT)

Seconded. One need never apologize for trying to do what's right! -- Bill-on-the-Hill 15:25, 2 June 2006 (EDT)
OK, I reread the article. Question that comes to mind: I'm now adding the villages in my town articles. Some did not yet have a page. Is it desirable for me to double bracket them creating the link to the "not yet there" page? Will these little townlets be article-worthy in every instance, Bill?
I can't speak for Bill, but I faced a similar issue with the Falkland Islands. Many of the "settlements" there are just a few houses. Ultimately I only linked areas about which I felt a complete article could be written. If someone disagrees in the future and wants to write an article about one of the map dots, there is nothing stopping them from doing so. In the case of Cape Cod it's up to your best judgement, but if you feel that a place doesn't have enough in it to write an article about, don't feel like you have to make a link for it. Anyone can edit any page, so in the future if someone wants to write a complete article about (for example) Bass River there is nothing stopping them from doing so. -- Ryan 16:36, 2 June 2006 (EDT)
Exactly. My gut feeling (coming from a position as bemused as Colin's...) is that one need go to no particular effort to create pages for these hamlets unless there's something noteworthy about them, but that OTOH, they do no harm. I'm dealing with a similarly small-town-bedecked area (New Mexico) and am simply adopting the policy of ignoring the small stuff until the bigger towns are in shape, with small towns being added if/when there's a reason to. Your own judgement as regards priorities is likely to be better than that of us folks who don't live there, so just plunge forward and add/link what you think needs adding. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 16:44, 2 June 2006 (EDT)
Thanks, Ryan and Bill. That all makes great sense to me. OldPine 16:52, 2 June 2006 (EDT)

Talk Pages[edit]

I've re-added the discussions that were deleted from Talk:Cape Cod. In general discussions aren't deleted so that in the future others can see how decisions were reached. If a talk page gets overly long then an archive page is typically created - see User talk:Wrh2/Archive, which is linked to from the top of User talk:Wrh2. Not a problem, but wanted to make sure you were aware of how this is normally handled. Nice work on the Cape Cod reorganization by the way - it looks vastly better! -- Ryan 17:09, 2 June 2006 (EDT)

Bah.. I had a feeling about that delete. Guess I'll have to try and be less deletive around here. Comes from those days before disk storage got cheap :) Thanks for the kudos.


How about becoming a docent for Massachusetts and the other articles you've been working on? A docent simply answers any questions other travellers may have about a destination. I'm a docent for Cincinnati, Milford-Miami Township, Munich, Rail travel in Europe, and many other tedious articles I'm sure no one will ever use like Clermont County (Ohio). - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 06:25, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks for asking. Seems fine. What can I expect for volume of questions? I'm real eager to get the Cape Cod towns up to speed. My wife is already chagrined that I have a new passion that keeps me at the keyboard :) BTW, I'm impressed with how responsive you were on the Orleans disambiguation. Upstream kudos! OldPine 06:49, 3 June 2006 (EDT)
Invite your wife onboard! With regards to volume I'm actually still waiting for someone to ask me a question and I'm rather suprised especially since Munich is hugely popular and so will Cincinnati this year, because of Tall Stacks, Oktoberfest-Zinzinnati, Taste of Cincinnati, Riverfest, Toyota/ WEBN Labor Day Fireworks, the Bengals (Who dey!), and some professional Tennis match. I wish we actually had stats on the questions others receive. I imagine it shouldn't be too much, especially, if the articles we write are fantastic. Regarding the Orleans dismab I've been watching the screen since 11 PM (EST)! I need a life, maybe I'll go travelling :) Thanks for your comments regarding my nomination as an admin. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 06:58, 3 June 2006 (EDT)
I'll get on board. Wife won't come along I don't think, but may have to put a VPN in here and get her her own laptop. Thanks again. OldPine 09:20, 3 June 2006 (EDT)
On your user page: "Please contact me by email with any questions by using the "E-mail this user" link to the left in the toolbox." I think you forgot to click the "Enable e-mail from other users" link in your Preferences. Thought I would just tell you in case anyone had a question about MA and couldn't get a hold of you the preferred way. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 16:53, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
It's been checked and enabled for a long time. Did you send me mail? Nothing there unless it got filtered. OldPine 17:00, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
No, I didn't send you anything. Just clicked on your username and noticed there is no "email this user" link on your user page, however, I can see it on your talk page. Hmm. I haven't any idea why that is working that way. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 17:07, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
I think it's the caching thing again - I wasn't able to see the link on his user page, but after I cleared the cache for the page I can see it. If you can see it now as well you may want to add a report on Wikitravel:Bug reports. -- Ryan 17:20, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
Yeah, I can see it too, now. I tried to clear the cache earlier, but I got an error message and decided to try it again later. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 17:25, 27 June 2006 (EDT)

Disambiguating Falmouth[edit]

Thanks for starting on straightening out the various places named Falmouth, but rather than defaulting "Falmouth" to "Falmouth, Massachusetts", the standard way of treating this is to have the page be called Falmouth (Massachusetts) and then set up a disambiguation page called Falmouth. I'll take care of that part; you can help by changing references to that Falmouth, in articles you and others have written, so that the link is to Falmouth (Massachusetts), then piped to just "Falmouth", instead. Reading up on Wikitravel:Disambiguation pages would be helpful. Keep up the good work! -- Bill-on-the-Hill 16:54, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks Bill, I think I knew that, but though I've been through the process at least 3 other times with Truro, Orleans and Harwich, I'm still not sure I get it. I've set up the disambiguation page before by linking it from the list of them. I'm just not sure if I was getting it right or not and always have to go back and look up how to do it. I saw you had moved Falmouth to F (Mass) and waited to see if you'd do the disambig page. I usually move the page first, but didn't this time. What does "changing pointer" mean? OldPine 16:59, 3 June 2006 (EDT)
It just means "I was too lazy to type the whole statement that 'page doesn't exist yet, but when it does, it'll point to the correct sub-region'." :-) -- Bill-on-the-Hill 17:12, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

New England[edit]

I mentioned this in my response on my talk page, but just want to make sure you see it: nice work on New England. With all this new info I'm itching to take a ramble through this summer. SHC 21:19, 4 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks. I love it here. Appreciate the heads up on the phone style. I left you a message over on your talk, too.

Moved your comments[edit]

I moved your comments on Wikitravel:6 June 2006 to Wikitravel talk:Table of contents location so others would see them. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 15:42, 6 June 2006 (EDT)



I just have to commend you on the job you've done in the past couple of weeks. The Plymouth (Massachusetts) article looks great compared to where it was before you arrived [2]! Thanks! - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 07:50, 9 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks, Andrew, and thanks for noticing and encouraging me. It helps a lot. I get a little discouraged at times when I'm out foraging for Cape Cod (which I know pretty well in a general sense) and seeing the detailed intimate knowledge some travel writers have generated about dining or accommodations. I guess we'll get there some day with enough help. I look at WP and am blown away by what's been built there. OldPine 08:14, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
Again, I have to give props to you. If you can get a few more photos for Cape Cod and Plymouth (A map also) I think you should nominate them for star status. These articles are really coming along with a minor editing could be stars in no time. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 15:53, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
Thanks again. Got some more plans for Plymouth. Was up today for the Mayflower pic (obviously the weather isn't cooperating) and got a bunch of tourist pamphlets that should bring more content on. It's getting there! The Cape is starting to look respectable, too. OldPine 16:12, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
It's been a few days since anyone commented on the amazing amount of information you're adding to the site, so just a quick note to express continued thanks. I daresay that with a couple dozen OldPine's we'd have a complete guide to the entire world within a few months! Anyways, many thanks, and nicely done. -- Ryan 20:48, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
The Sapphire Barnstar
To further the appreciation I award you with my specialized award - The Sapphire Barnstar. Barnstars are used to hold structurally unsound buildings together, which, is exactly what you do here on Wikitravel. You've single handedly created the New England articles and help with editing on other articles. Its the work that you've done that helps to hold Wikitravel together in order to acheive it's Goals. Thanks! - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 20:59, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
Second all of the above. It's been a while since anyone has shown up here and immediately made as spectacularly positive an impact as you! Thanks for all the good work, and keep it up! -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:15, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
Wow! Thanks, Ryan, Andrew and Bill. I love the star! You guys wow me every day with the technical stuff and the hundreds of newbie follow-ups you do so gracefully. A most inspirational bunch of veterans here! You're quite welcome. OldPine 21:11, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

Copyright Question[edit]

So I have a great map I want to use from a tourist pamphlet. There is absolutely no copyright notice anywhere on it. Can I use it?

Unfortunately no. You don't have to explicitly assert copyright to own one. For example, if I create a map and post it on my web site, the map is copyright by me since I created it. If someone else uses it elsewhere I could then register my copyright and take action against them. Only in cases where permission is granted to license something under the CC-SA license (or into the public domain) can we use it here. See Wikitravel:Copyleft for a more complete discussion. -- Ryan 20:49, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
OK, How about this wikipedia link? Consider this public domain like they do? [3] OldPine 19:46, 14 June 2006 (EDT)
Stuff that is created by the US Federal Government is in the public domain and can be used. So yes, the National Atlas stuff is reusable unless there is a copyright notice on it. (and see [4]) -- Colin 19:57, 14 June 2006 (EDT)


I realized that no one has let you in on the Shared secret. If you have any other images to upload could you upload them to Wikitravel Shared? Wikitravel Shared is the image depository for Wikitravel and allows images uploaded there to be used by every language version. Currently, the only way for the Japanese version to use an image that's on the English version is if someone downloads the image and then uploads it to Shared or to the Japanese version. Shared makes life a lot easier. You will need to create a user account on Wikitravel Shared, just like you did on this site. Thanks. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 23:56, 17 June 2006 (EDT)

Wilco, Andrew. I'd be happy to reload the existing ones to Shared if that helps. OldPine 09:02, 18 June 2006 (EDT)

Move this page missing?[edit]

Is it just me or is the "Move this page" link missing? OldPine 15:30, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

For performance reasons a lot of pages on the site are cached. Since non-logged in users can't move a page, if one of them views a page it might get cached without the "move" tag. I think this is on the Wikitravel:Bug reports page already, but I could be wrong. There are two workaround: one is to save the page with no changes, the other (and this might be admin only, I'm not sure) is to click on the "History" tab and then change the "action=history" part of the URL to "action=purge". Hope that helps! -- Ryan 16:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)
I had this issue and reported it on the bug reports page. You're using Internet Explorer, right? For whatever reason IE seems to half-log users out. They are still get credit for edits, but they are unable to move or watch pages. I downloaded IE 7 Beta 2 from Microsoft and have not had this problem since. Anytime you lose the move or watch page options you'll have to fully log out and log back in. Otherwise, I'd suggest downloading IE 7 Beta 2, which seems to perfectly solve the problem. - Sapphire
Ah, good to know. Thanks. OldPine 17:51, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

Orphan pages[edit]

Hi David. As always, thanks for your many contributions - you're making the rest of us look like slackers! One useful bit of info is that if you remove a town like Barnard from a state article such as Vermont (which is fine - it's not a major town by any means), please be sure that it gets linked to from an appropriate region article so that it won't show up as an orphaned page. Very minor nitpick - please don't let little suggestions like this one slow you down too much! -- Ryan 23:26, 21 June 2006 (EDT)

Aha, good catch, Ryan. I very much appreciate your bringing it to my attention. In my zeal to "plunge ahead" I've missed some of the important finer points. Thanks. I do want to be "with the program". OldPine 06:45, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
I believe that you may actually be more "with the program" then just about any other new user who has ever shown up on this site ;) The orphaned pages thing is a minor point, and please don't let something like that slow you down in your plunging forward - there are a bunch of little oddities around here, and everyone is likely to come across a few of them at some point. Since anything can be undone or changed it's pretty much impossible to "break" anything, so any mistake anyone might make is a minor matter. Leaving a note on a user page is simply a way of making someone aware of some of the subtleties that are worth nothing - for example, when I showed up here disambiguation pages were one of many "finer points" that really tripped me up. Keep doing what you're doing! -- Ryan 13:38, 22 June 2006 (EDT)

MoS Phone listings[edit]

Adding "ph:" or "phone:" to precede the phone number in a listing is not required, however, I do find it extremely helpful. I like to distinguish phone numbers from fax numbers, which, I normally try to include in listings. Normally one of the listings I'll write look something like this:

Cincinnati; 215 Main Street; Phone: (513) 555-555; Fax: (513) 555-55555; [5]; Hours: Open 24 hours a day; Cincinnati is a large city on the Ohio River. Price: $ 3.03

Even if I don't include the fax I use "phone:" to precede the phone number. I'm not sure if other people do it, but it's all up to the editor. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 15:38, 22 June 2006 (EDT)

Makes sense, particularly in view of the talk about sending bots through to make a database... or whatever that geek talk was that I read :) Anyhow, this should be standardized in the MoS for sure. Dude.. you use semicolons??? OldPine 15:41, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
By the way, whatever did you do to solve the move page button disappearance? Did you install IE 7 or just log out, log in, click the "remember me" button, or something else? Were you using IE? - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 15:45, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
Yep, using IE, just logging out and in I guess. I don't move that many pages. OldPine 16:02, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
A feature that's coming soon is Wikitravel:Listings, which should provide an automated way of distinguishing between phone and fax numbers. The listing tags aren't ready for wide usage just yet, but they're close - I believe that every listing in the Singapore article uses them, and I recall hearing that the Japanese Wikitravel is making use of them. Once that's here then hopefully we won't have to worry about these kinds of issues in the MOS and can focus on more important debates like spelling ;) -- Ryan 15:50, 22 June 2006 (EDT) it worth going back to fix all these I didn't ph:? OldPine 16:02, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
It's up to you. Not everyone includes the "Ph:" prefix - I use it occasionally, others never use it, others always use it. It will probably be a while yet before we start a wholesale conversion to listing tags. -- Ryan 16:15, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
I guess I'm one of the aforementioned ph: adders! As Ryan says, it's really upto you whether you put ph: or phone: or tel: - as long as it's obvious it's a telephone number and its written in english I don't think it really matters! I have seen somewhere on here a discussion about using icons rather than ph: but I guess that's a long way off still! About whether or not it's worth going round again and correcting all the listings you've written on here - there's plenty of users on here who just go round and change things like that, so unless you really want to, it will get changed anyway! Tsandell 05:12, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks again[edit]

I know a lot of people have posted here already, but the work you've done on Massachusetts and New England has been great. I really appreciate it. --Evan 18:24, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks, Evan. I appreciate the recognition. OldPine 23:14, 26 June 2006 (EDT)


You might find this useful to your Massachusetts efforts.... which, by the way, are extraordinarily impressive. Just find the city you'd like to mine, click 'edit', and copy the wiki text for your own use. -- Colin 02:31, 27 June 2006 (EDT)

Wow! Pretty nice. Thanks, Colin. OldPine 06:02, 27 June 2006 (EDT)

Disambiguation Question[edit]

I'm running into lots of these situations in New England. When listing the towns in Massachusetts regions, I've been adding them with disambiguation like: Essex when I realize there are other instances of (in this case) Essex (even if not in Wikitravel yet). Then I realized that someone searching for it probably won't find it and won't realize it already exists (and may start Essex if it didn't exist already]] unless I do the disambiguating page (of which there would be many). Should I be assuming uniqueness of the town until a conflict arises? The work of disambiguating all these (properly) seems daunting. OldPine 09:47, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

Durn good question, and one I've run into frequently myself. We don't handle this one gracefully as part of our naming conventions (e.g. see the disambiguation section of the conventions article). My personal preference is to err on the side of setting up the disambiguation page prophylactically, i.e., before the articles needing disambiguation are there, if you know that the disambiguation condition is definitely coming. That's a little more work for you as you create the initial articles, but saves a lot of work later when you (or other, unsuspecting authors) discover that a disambiguation page is needed -- after someone has already started creating links that will need to be changed, as a previously "unique" place's article becomes a disambiguation page. Does that make sense? Either way, thanks for addressing this issue so thoughtfully. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:00, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

County Disambiguation[edit]

Just a note about disambiguation of counties. Since the common name people use includes the word "County" we generally name county articles as "Cook County", and if more than one exists it becomes "Cook County (Illinois)". See Wikitravel talk:Article naming conventions#Article naming convention for US counties for a discussion. Yet another weird rule to remember! -- Ryan 13:42, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks. OldPine 13:51, 29 June 2006 (EDT)


Wikimania [6] is coming to Cambridge, MA and you might be interested in attending. Admission costs about $90 a day or $30 if you're an active Wikimedia contributor. Wikitravel is going to throwing a bash to celebrate the 10,000th article on Wikitravel you might want to go to that. I think Evan and Maj are still trying to find a good location to host the event. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:37, 7 July 2006 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be away that weekend. OldPine 13:04, 9 July 2006 (EDT)

First docent question?[edit]

If I want to dial a number in Boston or Cambridge do I have to dial 10 digits or seven? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 16:10, 12 July 2006 (EDT)

Yes, I am certain that those cities require 10 digit dialing. It is my belief that all of eastern Massachusetts has 10 digit dialing see here (though the very tip of Cape Cod and the Islands may not). I am not sure about Western Massachusetts. OldPine 17:54, 12 July 2006 (EDT)
See also which appears to have info for other states. OldPine 17:56, 12 July 2006 (EDT)

How far is Lexington, MA from Boston? - Sapphire

Probably 6-8 miles, 20 minutes depending on traffic. OldPine 22:03, 28 July 2006 (EDT)
Great! Thanks! -- Andrew
Had another look, I think I'm a little short. If you go through Cambridge and Arlington (like Paul Revere did), it's fairly short distance, but still 10-12 miles and 25-30 minutes. No highways involved that way though. OldPine 22:11, 28 July 2006 (EDT)
I'm writing the de:Lexington (Massachusetts) article on DE and I just wanted to make sure I was lying when I said that Lexington, MA was "a city in the area of Boston". Even an estimate is good enough for what I'm doing. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 22:29, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

Trolls R Us[edit]

Oldpine know anything more about portland, maine? 12:09, 14 July 2006 (EDT)

Ignore him OldPine -- he's a troll in search of attention. -- Colin 15:06, 14 July 2006 (EDT)

Maine towns[edit]

I'm glad to see Maine getting more properly regionalized, but those long lists of towns in some of the region articles make me nervous. While I'm sure each of these is a wonderful place to live and their residents are incredibly fond of them, they might not all make the subject of a good article complete with sights, accommodations, etc. And I know there are people (one in particular) who will create an article for anything, even if no one has any information to put into it (often because there's nothing to write about in the first place). Plus, those big lists are just plain intimidating. It might be better to instead list just the few most tourism-friendly cities and towns in each region, and let people add more to the lists when/if they have information about those towns to add. - Todd VerBeek 17:16, 15 July 2006 (EDT)

Heh, heh. Am I going to have to host this fight, Todd?? :) Seriously, though, that did occur to me of course. When I last asked this question (was it Connecticut?) Someone (probably not the person to whom you refer above) indicated I should just put all the towns down and someone would deal with it. Also, I used it as a way to pick up on any existing articles I might not have found (and found some that way through the link color). Perhaps, though, with pretty good delineation in this case we can do without the many non-article-worthy towns. I'm down with that. Awaiting further comment. -David. OldPine 17:44, 15 July 2006 (EDT)
The person I'm alluding to is (he says) a teenager with schizophrenia who fast-and-furiously creates empty articles for (apparently) any place name (or non-place name) that comes within his field of vision... and he happens to live in Maine. I'll wager that some of those previously-orphaned articles you found were stubs he created from looking at an atlas of the state. I recently suggested that if he can't resist the compulsion to create stubs, he should at least look at region articles and use the red links, because those are articles we want created. I shudder to think what he'll do if he digs into Maine#Regions. - Todd VerBeek 18:03, 15 July 2006 (EDT)
Oh, I see. Serious stuff. And I thought you were talking about a fellow admin. Ha! Look, man, I'll remove them, but I expect you to back me up when they come for me :) OldPine 20:07, 15 July 2006 (EDT)
Those edited lists are music to my eyes (or something like that). I can't see any admin coming after you for bringing a city list down from dozens to several (the guidelines says we oughta keep them that short), but I'll definitely back you if they do. Thanks! - Todd VerBeek 22:41, 15 July 2006 (EDT)

You have a fan...[edit]

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery: see User:OIdPine (note the capital "eye" instead of lowercase "ell"). -- Ryan 20:07, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

Very twicky, but still a misguided.. um.. fool. Thanks. OldPine 20:11, 25 July 2006 (EDT)
Brilliant! I totally didn't see that... I guess User:O1dPine would work too. --Evan 21:58, 25 July 2006 (EDT)
I vote for a font change. OldPine 22:03, 25 July 2006 (EDT)
What we need is a new Serif in town. - Todd VerBeek 23:06, 25 July 2006 (EDT)
Ha! Todd, you're a pistol! OldPine 23:09, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

White Mountain[edit]

Sorry for the drawn-out debate over White Mountain. Normally I could care less, but despite my best efforts the guy who creates those "Fubar a place" articles actually does bug me, and with so many people working to create a good travel guide I guess I just want to see the stuff that was done in bad faith gotten rid of. A reminder that with over ten thousand articles on the site that it's not worth giving too much thought to a few questionable ones is probably a good thing for me.

In any case I'll follow the advice you gave yourself and go back to making useful contributions, rather than debating endlessly about a 1.8 square mile dot in the netherlands of Alaska. -- Ryan 22:20, 26 July 2006 (EDT)

I appreciate the above comments. I was tempted to say, "OK, if it's about punishing an inept troll, I'm down with that." Somehow that seemed snarky and I wasn't looking to provoke. Certainly we shouldn't be spending so much time on VFD, but I guess it's a necessary evil. OldPine 22:58, 26 July 2006 (EDT)


I just wanted to tell you that I thought this was very funny. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:06, 30 July 2006 (EDT)

Ha! Great to know someone else actually saw it (and appreciated it). I find myself getting into these silly moods after banging out listings for a while. Everyone seems so serious sometimes but hey, I kill me. OldPine 13:11, 30 July 2006 (EDT)
I understand that. I occasionally add what seem to be random phrases to describe my edits, but they're normally something to end my boredom. I've also pondered the life of a moth. I'm sure if you search for "moth" it will pop up somewhere. Anyhow, you kill me too. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:15, 30 July 2006 (EDT)


I invented it on my own, believe me or not :)

It's nice to hear such a compliment especially as English isn't my mother tongue.

CandleWithHare 18:36, 31 July 2006 (EDT)

Excellent and amazing! OldPine 18:54, 31 July 2006 (EDT)


I deleted Image:LexingtonMAstatue.jpg on shared as requested. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 19:25, 2 August 2006 (EDT)

Oh, and the VFD page on shared is located here - shared:Wikitravel Shared:Votes for deletion, which is essentially the same address on en except "Shared" follows the Wikitravel part. Otherwise if you click on the recent changes page at the top there is a link to the VfD page on Shared. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 19:42, 2 August 2006 (EDT)
Great. Thanks (again), Andrew. OldPine 19:45, 2 August 2006 (EDT)
I clicked on the link above and didn't find the deletion page, so I've fixed the typo. Sorry for butting in! -- Ryan 19:48, 2 August 2006 (EDT)


Can you explain something to me? I'm not sure what you're level of expertise is on Boston, but there some obvious districts like Downtown, Beacon Hill, North End, and Black Bay. I understand why those districts constitute a need for an article. Could you explain to me why Chinatown, Theather district, and the countless other districts need an article? In your somewhat local knowledge can Chinatown and the Theather district be counted as Downtown? I was in the Pubic Garden looking at some boats and I asked an employee if the park was in Beacon Hill, Arlington, Theather district or what have you and she responded "Downtown", which leads me to believe we've created a whole slew of sub-districts that we don't really need. What's your take? -- Sapphire 20:31, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, good question. I agree that the whole thing seems like a magilla. Most of these places are definitely distinct neighborhoods, but the boundaries can be a bit vague in some cases. I can vouch for these being legitimate "neighborhoods" on cultural grounds and widely recognized as distinct areas: North End, Beacon Hill, Chinatown, Back Bay, Theatre District (the weakest as it is theatres and restaurants basically); though all could be conceived of as "greater downtown". The following are "districts" referenced by the City of Boston itself and in maps and newspapers: Allston, Brighton, Jamaica Plain, Mission Hill, Charlestown, Dorchester, Hyde Park, Mattapan, Roslindale, Roxbury, South Boston, West Roxbury. Bay Village I may know about, not sure. South End is definitely a place, but weak for an article. West End is a historical phantom from what I read in that article, but there is an area to which it applies. Yeah, most all these as listed actually cover something distinct. As to whether you get a decent article about them is another story. Take Beacon Hill. It seems borderline to me as there doesn't seem to be enough to write about, but it is a cool place, historical and distinct. I'd love to get rid of some of the districts, but it's kind of hard to chop them up any way other than to consolidate the greater downtown as referenced above, and then that gets to be too big a district of itself. To answer your more specific question, you could combine Chinatown and Theatre District. Chinatown is distinct due to culture of course, and could support an article. Downtown is already a bit vague. I suppose my confusion is evident, but I'm not known for being decisive :) OldPine 21:03, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
Hmm. Let me see if I've got this right - Allston, Brighton, Jamaica Plain, Mission Hill, Charlestown, Dorchester, Hyde Park, Mattapan, Roslindale, Roxbury, South Boston, West Roxbury are legit districts? The map I have, printed by the National Park Service, recognizes Chinatown, South Boston, Back Bay, North End, and Beacon Hill. Now, my Frommer's guide to the US recognizes Chinatown, South Boston, Back Bay, North End, Beacon Hill, and Waterfront. I guess I view Theatre District as a sub-district and I can live with some of the other districts, which I originally thought were pointless, but I want to merge Theatre District in with the appopriate district because my over-the-weekend experience leads me to believe the Theather District is about two square blocks. Anyhow, which district should I use if I want to merge theatre district in with the appropriate district?
Regarding Beacon Hill I spent most of my last couple days between the area of Government Crossing and Beacon Hill so I think I could pull something out of my hat in turning Beacon Hill into a district article. -- Sapphire 21:18, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
I guess it goes to Downtown (which includes Boston Common). It's adjacent to South End as well. You're right, it's about 2 square blocks. The two sources you site seem to be citing districts of "Boston Proper". Many of the other districts are more like villages. See Dunno if you know San Francisco at all, but it seems similar in situation to me. OldPine 21:28, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
Thanks for the link. Seems I've been raising hell over a district article that doesn't even exist! Hmm. I wonder where I thought I saw it. On a seperate and completely random side note: I've been thinking if you have any kids or grandkids you should register the username NewPine and pass it on as a kind of family heirloom. -- Sapphire 21:34, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
Ha! I dunno. I'm kinda hoping for Teak, Mahogany or at least oak. Does this mean you've nailed down all the available jewels?? OldPine 21:53, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
Nope, but my dad has already given me to job of planning the funeral. I guess his heirloom to me is a bill. Hmm. Oak, huh? Do you and your wife need a new family member? -- Sapphire 21:56, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
Nah, sorry, I'm even enjoying being petless at this point. Grandchildren should be showing up any year now. The OldPine thing is an obscure reference to a college icon, but somehow as an old softy it seems appropriate. OldPine 22:14, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
I've apparently misinterpreted your comments the first time around, but now that I've read further into it- HA! Jewels, that's good. -- Sapphire 22:19, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
I've looked at South End. I have to revoke what I said. I'd forgotten about a certain area of it that is definitely reviving. Already seems to be a fair amount of info there. BTW, I see user:Beland is a Boston resident. OldPine 22:24, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Al. and al. (street name abbreviations in Warsaw)[edit]

It's not really an issue, but while al. that comes from aleja is not capitalized, the Al. in Al. Jerozolimskie comes from Aleje (the plural form) and is a part of the proper name Aleje Jerozolimskie (literally: Jerusalem Avenues). So, it is actually correct to capitalize it. I bet most Polish people don't realize the difference but I wanted to share this little factlet :) CandleWithHare 19:42, 13 August 2006 (EDT)

Thanks. I wondered about that and had an instinct that I should have followed. OldPine 19:54, 13 August 2006 (EDT)

Charlestown RI - Thanks[edit]

Some first attempts on making entries here, thanks for fixing it up and not outright deleting it! In addition, and I apologize for bugging you, but is there any way you can help me learn how to upload images? Thanks in advance. Ryoniyk 14:45, 22 August 2006 (EDT)

Sure, will move to your talk page. OldPine 15:03, 22 August 2006 (EDT)



Could I ask you to help me and rewrite the eat section of my London surgical operation? The link is here - [[7]]. I think the information could flow better, but I need another pair of eyes. Thanks. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 20:17, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

Sure, happy to do it. Gonna be a while before I can get to it.. maybe Sat. OldPine 20:49, 24 August 2006 (EDT)
oops.. caught some luck here. I'm on it, Andrew. OldPine 21:15, 24 August 2006 (EDT)
Thanks. I'm leaving for Windsor (Ontario) in a few hours so I'm trying pry myself from the key board so I can get some sleep. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 21:24, 24 August 2006 (EDT)


Sorry about that - looks like we conflicted on editing Rab. -- Ryan 12:36, 27 August 2006 (EDT)

Heh, it happens. I'll get you back some day I bet :) OldPine 12:41, 27 August 2006 (EDT)

Welcome on User Page[edit]

Not a problem at all, glad to help. I do the same thing all the time and other people fix my mistake. Not sure why I post welcome's on the user page and not the talk, but is no probem to fix -- Tom Holland (xltel) 12:47, 27 August 2006 (EDT)


I do tech support work for an understaffed college, so during certain times of year I have Zero time for anything other than working, sleeping, eating, and drinking. I'm just poking my head above water at the moment and expect to resume normal life shortly. Thanks for asking. - Todd VerBeek 22:00, 10 September 2006 (EDT)