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(Deleting discussions)
(Deleting discussions)
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::In my view, which I have stated many times, is that IB has grossly mismanaged the Wikitravel website and its community. This is what has been destructive to ''our'' community, nothing else. Forking seems to me the best possible thing that could happen to our community, and for crowd-sourced travel writing in general. I have already stated so on Shared and in private communication with you. I even think it might be good for the quality of the IB-owned Wikitravel! Maybe it will force IB to wake up and take stewardship of this site and its community seriously. Make a case for why people should stay in words and deeds. Actually fix the bugs, improve site performance, take feature development seriously, govern more openly, respect the wishes and polices of the community. This would be great. I have no way to know whether the WMF proposal has been the spur behind increased tech support from IB, or the lack of progress on the booking tool that none of us want. But I do believe and say, in good faith, that the proposed fork will be good for the Wikitravel community, and that it has already brought semi-retired editors and admins who had lost interest, as the site stagnated, back to writing, editing, patrolling, and so on.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:36, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
 
::In my view, which I have stated many times, is that IB has grossly mismanaged the Wikitravel website and its community. This is what has been destructive to ''our'' community, nothing else. Forking seems to me the best possible thing that could happen to our community, and for crowd-sourced travel writing in general. I have already stated so on Shared and in private communication with you. I even think it might be good for the quality of the IB-owned Wikitravel! Maybe it will force IB to wake up and take stewardship of this site and its community seriously. Make a case for why people should stay in words and deeds. Actually fix the bugs, improve site performance, take feature development seriously, govern more openly, respect the wishes and polices of the community. This would be great. I have no way to know whether the WMF proposal has been the spur behind increased tech support from IB, or the lack of progress on the booking tool that none of us want. But I do believe and say, in good faith, that the proposed fork will be good for the Wikitravel community, and that it has already brought semi-retired editors and admins who had lost interest, as the site stagnated, back to writing, editing, patrolling, and so on.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:36, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
  
::: An additional note - the principle of discouraging, but not censoring, potentially disruptive discussions is a longstanding one.  For example, search for "fork" on [[Wikitravel talk:Internet Brands]], and see the various FAQs linked from [[User:Hansm]] as well as his contributions elsewhere on the site, all of which go way beyond a brief blurb in the Pub.  Those still editing on Wikitravel today disagreed with Hans, and most of us thought it was highly inappropriate of him to use Wikitravel to advocate for a fork, but so long as his discussions consisted of questioning site policy or summarizing his reasoning, he was given the right to express an opinion. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 19:56, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
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:::It was not your comments I was per se disagreeing with, Peter; it was Jani's post. It does not. Belong. On Wikitravel. Your post in reply to his became moot, once his was removed (just as your reply to me is now moot, since the original post has been restored -- you should consider removing it). If we need a policy to remove fork discussions, and prevent more of the same from occurring in the future, we'll do that. For now, as both you and Ryan have objected, I have removed the links pending our policy draft.
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:::The "Wikitravel community" is not the same as "the Wikitravel admins," which you mistake as being equal. In fact, the community at large positively dwarfs the small number of hard-working admins that patrol and curate the site out of the goodness of their hearts and desire to see the project flourish. There are *seven million* human beings every month who use this site. The majority of them have never been here before. THAT is the community; that is the basis of "the traveler comes first." Perhaps admins say they support a fork; maybe that fork will happen; maybe it'll even be supported by the WMF, despite what a terrible precedent that sets; does that mean it should be discussed here? To what end? This is not a forum for discussing how to dismantle this project, nor will it become one. If you wish to discuss a fork and its proposed benefits to the 40 admins who support it, in defiance of the 7 million monthly travelers who come here for the best content, by all means, talk about it. Not here. "We talked about Wikivoyage before" is not a rationale for repeating the same mistake again.
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:::As for "fix the bugs, improve site performance, take feature development seriously, govern more openly, respect the wishes and polices of the community," if you want to go back a year, two years, five years, sure. But you and I both know that over the past year plus, everything has changed for the better. And to state that the idea of the WMF supporting a fork has spurred anything is ludicrous; the timing refutes that notion, since the start of the upgrade alone predates the involvement of WMF by at least 3 months. With all due respect, it's disingenuous to keep repeating things that occurred in the past as though they were still happening. You can see on a daily basis how much work is going into this project, very much including this long discussion between us on the fork issue today.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 20:35, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
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:::: An additional note - the principle of discouraging, but not censoring, potentially disruptive discussions is a longstanding one.  For example, search for "fork" on [[Wikitravel talk:Internet Brands]], and see the various FAQs linked from [[User:Hansm]] as well as his contributions elsewhere on the site, all of which go way beyond a brief blurb in the Pub.  Those still editing on Wikitravel today disagreed with Hans, and most of us thought it was highly inappropriate of him to use Wikitravel to advocate for a fork, but so long as his discussions consisted of questioning site policy or summarizing his reasoning, he was given the right to express an opinion. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 19:56, 2 July 2012 (EDT)

Revision as of 00:39, 3 July 2012

Eratic readings since crash at 5. Juni 2012

Please show at the German Travellers' pub-Site -- Knut 84.58.160.100 04:37, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

Deleting discussions

Regarding [1], while I understand why you are removing discussions, the existing site policies are strongly aligned towards preventing any appearance of censorship - see Wikitravel:Using talk pages (talk page conversations are not deleted) - and most users of this site will have very strong opinions on the matter and see attempts to make exceptions to site policy as an abuse of power. Many of us felt it was inappropriate to use Wikitravel as a platform for discussions of forking when the Wikivoyage fork happened, and many will also feel it's inappropriate to use Wikitravel as a platform for a discussion of a fork now, but in both cases I think attempts to censor those discussions are greater wrongs and would ask that you restore the discussions you have deleted, perhaps adding a note that you feel that this is not the proper venue for such discussion to occur. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:38, 2 July 2012 (EDT)

Thank you, Ryan, that is a very reasonable proposition. However, as I have noted at Peter's Talk page, the discussion itself, in this particular case, serves the same destructive purpose to the community, as would touting a fork. You cannot discuss touting a fork without bringing attention to it, which is the point in the first place. Those who are attempting to discuss this are actively seeking to subvert the very site that allows them the platform upon which to discuss it. Perhaps there is no written policy that says "don't try to use Wikitravel to destroy Wikitravel," but that is only because it is self-evident.
In the case of Wikivoyage, absolutely that should not have been discussed here either. Two wrongs do not make a right, and there is no reason a prior grievous error should be used to justify another. I am acting in the best interest of this project, and I stand behind this action. If anyone has a resoned argument to refute that, fine. But we are not going to shoot ourselves in the face simply because explicit policy does not exist to tell us that would be a bad idea.--IBobi 17:49, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
If you want to remove the links to the WM travel site discussion, I could agree to that. But outright censorship of others comments (like mine regarding how this should be discussed elsewhere not here!), is not just a real violation of our project's policies, it is counterproductive. I know well enough from experience that IB is best at alienating the communities whose sites they buy, rather than encouraging their growth. But really, continued edit warring, censorship, and other abuse is not the best way to present your argument that editors should stay here, if another fork emerges. Which is really what you should be doing, and doing fast.
As of right now, IB is moving from just being in violation of our advertising policy and consensus policies. You are in Wikitravel:How to handle unwanted edits territory. --Peter Talk 17:59, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
I believe it is within my rights as a member of this community to edit or revert edits as I see fit, is it not? Can you see that the absence of a policy forbidding fork discussion is detrimental to this site? So be it: let's write a policy. Here's my draft:
Discussions of forking the content of this Project are inappropriate and detrimental to Wikitravel. Anyone wishing to participate in such discussions is of course welcome to do so offline; but Wikitravel is under no obligation to provide a forum for self-destructive behavior.
Something like that? Meantime, since the discussion at hand deals directly with the policy above, I move that it be tabled until such time as the passage or defeat of such policy is decided.--IBobi 18:10, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
(edit conflicted) IBobi - I won't pursue this issue further, but please understand that deleting a good faith discussion, rather than responding and providing counter-arguments, is something that will be extremely poorly received within any wiki community. Again, using the example of Wikivoyage, using Wikitravel as a platform for discussing that fork was in poor taste, but attempts to censor those discussions would have been far worse than simply politely asking the individuals involved to raise their concerns in a more appropriate venue. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:13, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
"I believe it is within my rights as a member of this community to edit or revert edits as I see fit, is it not?". It is not. Reverting edits is not done as people see fit, it is done to preserve the integrity of our policies and rules. You are violating those rules, and Wikitravel:Edit war, which I suppose you did not read, directly responds to your current behavior. You are also reinforcing long-standing beliefs that Internet Brands will continue to disrespect the social norms and rules of the communities off which it makes its money.
Also, I think I told you privately at one point that I'm not likely to give you too much help, largely because I have found your comments on Shared arrogant, ignorant, and off-putting. In that same discussion I suggested you should heed Ryan's advice, as it is and will be spot-on, and more polite than my own. You have drawn way more attention to this fork through repeated defiance of policy. --Peter Talk 18:22, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
You assume incorrectly, Peter. I've read all policies concerning this site and simply disagree with you on this. As I've stated, had those comments been in good faith, I'd have left them be. They were not. I'd like it if you could, for the moment, leave off the repetition of stating yet again how much you dislike this site's host and myself, and focus constructively on the policy points I've made.
I propose as a mid-term solution: that while we discuss an "anti-fork discussion" policy, we reinstate the existing discussion, minus links to or mentions of an alternate site for such a fork (in this case MWF)? Will that serve the purpose you're after, Ryan & Peter?--IBobi 18:40, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
Updating site policies to prevent discussion of forks would probably be most appropriate if proposed at either Wikitravel talk:How to handle unwanted edits or Wikitravel talk:Using talk pages. As to whether restoring a discussion would "serve the purpose you're after", my purpose was simply to be consistent with the principles this site was founded on - open discussion and collaborative effort based on an agreed upon set of guidelines - and I felt it was important to point out that deletion of a good faith discussion, even one that may not be appropriate, was a very serious breach of wiki protocol. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:53, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
I might be amenable to a proposed policy to avoid discussion of forks in Wikitravel's public spaces. I would not, and I assume others would not, be amenable to your deleting other people's comments until said policy was agreed upon. Per Wikitravel:Consensus, which, if you have not read, you clearly have either not understood or simply disregarded in your actions and behavior, mandates that you would need others to agree with you before you take such inappropriate and impermissible action. --Peter Talk 19:01, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
Also, I've tried to make it clear that I think one could argue that the Wikitravel:External links policy would not allow links in the pub to a different travel wiki. You have been deleting my comments, though, so that may have been lost. So yes, I think it would be acceptable to restore all comments as made, minus the links. Scrubbing mentions of the Wikimedia Foundation would not be appropriate, because we do not edit others' words on this site, to avoid people trying to obscure and change other peoples' intended meanings. --Peter Talk 19:06, 2 July 2012 (EDT)

From your points of view, what would constitute a comment NOT made "in good faith" in this case? What purpose, other than an attempt to subvert Wikitravel by fracturing its community -- decidedly not "in good faith" -- does a fork discussion serve? This is way beyond "not in good taste," which basically is meaningless if it is not grounded in policy. There may be members of this community who also have interests outside of this community; but when those interest clearly and directly conflict with the good of this community, there needs to be a WT way of dealing with that, other than simply looking the other way and calling them "distasteful."--IBobi 19:16, 2 July 2012 (EDT)

I think that discussion is outside the scope of a user talk page discussion and should probably be posted in a place where others can contribute. I'd suggest reposting in Wikitravel talk:How to handle unwanted edits. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:25, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
[edit conflict] I'm happy to explain this via open discussion, but I'm not sure that's what you seem to want...
My comments, which you removed, were to the point of avoiding using Wikitravel's public spaces as a platform to advertise other websites, especially those that could be viewed (wrongly) as competition. I suggested more appropriate venues. I can't fathom how you would think that is somehow in bad faith. Unlike your transparently interested removal of others' comments.
I can understand your reaction to Jani's post, and I can even understand how, from the perspective of an interested party employed by Internet Brands, it might seem to be not in good faith. But Jani was trying to alert the Wikitravel community—a community which he helped build—that every last admin active on this site has stated that they are going to fork, if the project does get started. While you have dismissed my comments as chicken little saying the "sky is falling," this is a fact. That is something rather of interest to this community, no? If members of this community, which includes even those who are here because they are paid to be here, want to join a discussion to express their disapproval of the proposed Wikimedia project, they should have a chance to do so.
In my view, which I have stated many times, is that IB has grossly mismanaged the Wikitravel website and its community. This is what has been destructive to our community, nothing else. Forking seems to me the best possible thing that could happen to our community, and for crowd-sourced travel writing in general. I have already stated so on Shared and in private communication with you. I even think it might be good for the quality of the IB-owned Wikitravel! Maybe it will force IB to wake up and take stewardship of this site and its community seriously. Make a case for why people should stay in words and deeds. Actually fix the bugs, improve site performance, take feature development seriously, govern more openly, respect the wishes and polices of the community. This would be great. I have no way to know whether the WMF proposal has been the spur behind increased tech support from IB, or the lack of progress on the booking tool that none of us want. But I do believe and say, in good faith, that the proposed fork will be good for the Wikitravel community, and that it has already brought semi-retired editors and admins who had lost interest, as the site stagnated, back to writing, editing, patrolling, and so on. --Peter Talk 19:36, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
It was not your comments I was per se disagreeing with, Peter; it was Jani's post. It does not. Belong. On Wikitravel. Your post in reply to his became moot, once his was removed (just as your reply to me is now moot, since the original post has been restored -- you should consider removing it). If we need a policy to remove fork discussions, and prevent more of the same from occurring in the future, we'll do that. For now, as both you and Ryan have objected, I have removed the links pending our policy draft.
The "Wikitravel community" is not the same as "the Wikitravel admins," which you mistake as being equal. In fact, the community at large positively dwarfs the small number of hard-working admins that patrol and curate the site out of the goodness of their hearts and desire to see the project flourish. There are *seven million* human beings every month who use this site. The majority of them have never been here before. THAT is the community; that is the basis of "the traveler comes first." Perhaps admins say they support a fork; maybe that fork will happen; maybe it'll even be supported by the WMF, despite what a terrible precedent that sets; does that mean it should be discussed here? To what end? This is not a forum for discussing how to dismantle this project, nor will it become one. If you wish to discuss a fork and its proposed benefits to the 40 admins who support it, in defiance of the 7 million monthly travelers who come here for the best content, by all means, talk about it. Not here. "We talked about Wikivoyage before" is not a rationale for repeating the same mistake again.
As for "fix the bugs, improve site performance, take feature development seriously, govern more openly, respect the wishes and polices of the community," if you want to go back a year, two years, five years, sure. But you and I both know that over the past year plus, everything has changed for the better. And to state that the idea of the WMF supporting a fork has spurred anything is ludicrous; the timing refutes that notion, since the start of the upgrade alone predates the involvement of WMF by at least 3 months. With all due respect, it's disingenuous to keep repeating things that occurred in the past as though they were still happening. You can see on a daily basis how much work is going into this project, very much including this long discussion between us on the fork issue today.--IBobi 20:35, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
An additional note - the principle of discouraging, but not censoring, potentially disruptive discussions is a longstanding one. For example, search for "fork" on Wikitravel talk:Internet Brands, and see the various FAQs linked from User:Hansm as well as his contributions elsewhere on the site, all of which go way beyond a brief blurb in the Pub. Those still editing on Wikitravel today disagreed with Hans, and most of us thought it was highly inappropriate of him to use Wikitravel to advocate for a fork, but so long as his discussions consisted of questioning site policy or summarizing his reasoning, he was given the right to express an opinion. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:56, 2 July 2012 (EDT)