"If there is ebb" sounds funny. Ebb is low or descending tide, but the construction implies that ebb is a material ("if there is rubbish"). What's the right way to say this? -phma 17:19, 2 Aug 2004 (EDT)
- I'd be interested in the correct solution, too *g*. Sorry. --EBB 18:07, 2 Aug 2004 (EDT)
- In english ebb and flood when referring to tides are usually refferred to as ebb tide and flood tide to distinguish from other uses of those words. If I messed up your meaning with my change by all means change it back. -- Webgeer 01:27, Aug 3, 2004 (EDT)
- No, thanks. This is exactly what I wanted to say. And again I learned something. --EBB 05:51, 3 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Qingdao Travel & Living Guide
I rolled back two links to Qingdao Travel & Living Guide. We normally don't link to external travel guides, preferring to get important information into Wikitravel rather than linking to it somewhere else. See Wikitravel:External links for details. --Evan 05:43, 14 September 2006 (EDT)
I removed the part about China having instituted a 1RMB "tax" on all Taxi fares requiring riders pay 1RMB above the stated fare. This is certainly not a china-wide policy. It in fact sounds like a way for cab drivers to scam an extra 1 RMB from unsuspecting riders. If someone thinks there is in fact a tax, please provide a link to an article/official website.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SONORAMA (talk • contribs) 22 November 2006
1 rmb tax on taxi fares in Qingdao
I live and work in Qingdao! There is a 1 rmb "gas" tax on taxi fares in Qingdao. This is not a scam. Again if the meter reads 7 rmb then you must pay 8 rmb, if the meter reads 19 rmb you must pay 20 rmb. Please don't edit something you know nothing about. You can call the Qingdao Transportation Bureau (Traffic Service) at ph: (+86 532) 8281-7777 if you have any questions, be prepared to speak Chinese.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs) 15 December 2006
- The city has recently removed the 1 rmb "Gas Tax" so if you are headed to Qingdao make sure you have the driver run the meter and pay only what the meter reads. -- 20:09, 27 February 2007 (EST)
- The Gas Tax is back and probably here to stay! Again you will have to pay an additional 1 RMB on top of what the meter reads. There is a sticker on the dashboard of all taxis, however it's in Chinese. -- 07:02, 9 December 2007 (EST)
Qingdao Railway Station
Please do not remove the citation to the source of information about the Qingdao Railway Station! This is the most current information provided in English! If you look at the source you will see much more information than what is listed here. If you remove the citation then also remove the information provided by the source. Qingdao China Guide provides the most current information on news that affects travelers and Expats living in Qingdao! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs)
- Please read our external links guidelines. --Evan 21:23, 17 December 2006 (EST)
- If you remove the citation then please remove the information. Travelers on their way to Qingdao should be able to find the original current information in English regarding transportation. I understand your concerns and feel perhaps the removal of less important links such as (MyKAL, ZhanShan Temple) is warranted.
WiKi Travel prides itself on the dissemination of NEW travel information. KEEP IT REAL!
- if anyone travels to QD and has new info...please post.
RMB to CNY
RMB updated to CNY.
- The ISO 4217 abbreviation is CNY, although also commonly abbreviated as "RMB". The Latinised symbol is ¥. Perhaps RMB may confuse some traveler's during the the upcomming 2008 games while they try to exchange currancies at local banks.
- Let's keep it RMB. RMB (Ren Min Bi) is the standard way to express amounts in Chinese currency in English writing. CNY may be used by bankers but is of no relevance whatsoever to travelers. Repeat: If we're trying to keep things simple and avoid confusion, use RMB.
There was discussion at Talk:China#A_uniform_way_of_describing_Chinese_money leading to the conclusion that ¥ should be used throughout. Pashley 01:41, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
Please DO NOT remove sources to original information
If travel information is added to wikitravel, the original source to the information should be cited. It is not cool, or even professional, to remove the source of original information.
I might be wrong, but my understanding is that external links in listings should only be to primary sources, which I believe these are not. The web site you link to might be the official web site for the destination, but then it should be linked to only once, within the first sentence of the article, immediately after the name of the destination. Please explain why you think these links should be included in the listings. --ClausHansen 11:23, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
- You are absolutely correct. Wikitravel is not Wikipedia, we do not need to "cite" sources. Jpatokal 11:28, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
- It's not so much that Wikitravel "needs" to cite sources, but rather it would make the page more credible and allow others to get current updates from the original source of the data (statistical facts, figures, dates, times, etc.).
Hi Claus & Jpatokal,
Thanks for the additions and keep up the good work it is much needed. My concern is that if times, dates, or details of events are placed on WikiTravel then the cite to where the information came from should also be included. Original and current information on the Qingdao Beer Festival came from the source cited. In fact, last year the beer festival was NOT held during the normal dates due to the Olympic Sailing Regatta and Qingdao China Guide was the first to make this information public, which was consequently posted here on Wikitravel and properly cited.
The YinHai International Yacht & Sailing Club details regarding the ferry to Huangdao are NOT found on YinHai's web site but rather on Qingdao China Guide, which is the original source of the information regarding the ferry to Huangdao.
Thanks again for your help.
- Sorry, but due to the External links guideline, we won't be linking to That's Qingdao for any reason. Stuff like beer festival dates and ferry schedules are public knowledge. Jpatokal 01:26, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
- The issue here is not necessarily External Links--Wikitravel doesn't need an external links section. Rather, it's the proper use of statistical data. This type data is always cited in all reputable sources of information, whether it be web or print. It seems that some facts, figures, and dates have been lifted from direct sources that have not been cited. I think most would agree that if statistical information is gathered from other sites and posted here it should be sourced. This allows users of Wikitravel to locate the original source so they can check for updates. Qingdao China Guide seems to provide the most current information regarding travel in Qingdao. I have used the site to post facts and figures here on Wikitravel in the past and have always cited the source unless I have personal experience and knowledge of the topic being added or modified.
- The original sources (or in Wikitravel lingo the primary source) for the Qingdao Beer Festival or a ferry company are the official sites of the beer festival and the ferry company, which can and should be linked to. While I'm sure "That's Qingdao" is useful, it's a secondary source that pretty much duplicates what Wikitravel is doing and thus linking to it is explicitly prohibited by Wikitravel:External links. Jpatokal 08:50, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
- Not all of the information on "That's Qingdao" is secondary. In this case, the information I posted regarding this year’s Beer Festival as well as the YinHai Yatch Club ferry to Huangdao and updated train station info was only found on "That's Qingdao" at the time of posting. If you remove the "original" source (not wiki lingo, but rather dictionary lingo), then please remove the contribution. I will not take part in plagiarizing information from "That's Qingdao" and posting it here on Wikitravel without proper citation.
- If you copied information from there, it should be removed, as this would breach copyrights. If it's your own words, then I don't see any reason neither for removal nor breaking our long-standing external links policy. Why is linking to that page so important? Furthermore after looking through the website, I agree that there is some solid information in there, but the header "Quingdao China Guide - Official Website" makes me twitch, even though (very sympathetically) it's a non-profit organization, trying to trick visitors into believing they're on an official website, is definitely not something I think we should condone. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 10:07, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
- They called it "Official Website" because it is the official website for their publication "Qingdao China Guide". Also, http://www.QingdaoChinaGuide.com redirects to http://www.ThatsQingdao.com -- They have changed the site title header to avoid any future misunderstanding.
- Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks for the clarification regarding wikitravel's policies.
It is obvious that users have been taking data from specific websites and posting it here on WikiTravel. People find the information useful otherwise they wouldn't post it here! It is unethical to remove the cited source of information regardless of the external links guide line. Besides this really has nothing to do with the external link guides lines at all, and if so, then someone should take a long hard look at revising them.
Why can't you give credit to the original author of something that is obviously useful to the travel community?
- We do credit the authors who add information, see . If the exact wording is being copied from another site, that's a copyright violation and it will be deleted; however, copying "information" in your own words is perfectly fine, since train schedules etc are not copyrighted. Jpatokal 07:07, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
- WikiTravel gives credit to anyone including those who have plagiarized from other sites. In most communities around the world, plagiarism is not accepted. I guess it would be impossible to verify whether or not the information posted on the ‘article’ page was from users who have actually visited the location. Anyway, that's the nature of the wikiBeast.
- No, we do not accept copy-pastes from other sites, because that would be a copyright violation. However, your site does not have the monopoly on (say) the train station's phone numbers, which can be verified eg. here: 24小时咨询电话：（0532）6011111 青岛站定票电话：2962777 Jpatokal 09:54, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
- ...and by the way, I can't believe you've been harping on about this since 2006! Jpatokal 09:56, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
- ?? I have used wikitravel several times in the past few days due to recent travel plans. Currently in TS and heading to QD on the way to Korea. Anyway back to the matter of plagiarism. I'm happy you found "a source"...but I can't read Chinese and if you use the info on the 'article page' you should cite the source. Is it correct? Did you verify the information? Do they speak English? No worries, I'll report on this later. Back to the issue at hand, wikiTravel is guilty of allowing plagiarism. Guidelines should require users, as well as administrators, to cite the sources of statistical data.
- Dude, I can't read Chinese, but I can surely read the date 自2001年10月21日零时执行 of your source. Why would you cite anything from that page? Get a grip! The train schedules have changed since 2001. I used this  for accurate information which was Last Updated ( Thursday, 03 September 2009 ).
- Travel guides don't use footnotes. The link you are adding is a violation of our external links policy. Factual data like timetables, phone numbers, prices, etc. cannot be copyrighted, while the presentation of factual data can be—I don't see any violation here.
- More importantly, please do not edit war—it makes you look more like a troll , and less like someone acting in good faith to address a grievance. --Peter Talk 15:39, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
The information on Qingdao Underwater World was directly copied from Qingdao China Guide. Several parts have been copied word for word including complete sentences. This is ridiculous! This is NOT the first time that information has been directly lifted from Qingdao China Guide and placed on wikiTravel. In fact, all of the bus line information has also been lifted from QCG. WikiTravel is not the only guilty site. Google it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs)
- Have a look back through the history. See that the text was like a year ago. See this edit , which changed just a word here and there, which you claim is lifted directly. While you are looking through the history, see how much time and effort various people have put into patrolling this article to remove external links that are against policy, each time taking the time to explain to you how and why, with links being added at various points throughout the article. --inas 00:51, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- In particular, note that the specific edit you just removed was added to Wikitravel on 16 August 2006  by a long-standing contributor, whereas there's no record of it on thatsqingdao until sometime after 10 January 2008 , as earlier versions of their page did not contain any such text. There may well be some copying involved, but I don't think it's in the direction you claim it is. - Dguillaime 00:57, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
The following text, ("Consists of four main areas on both sides of Laiyang Road connected by an underground passage. There is a moving platform that takes visitors through a tunnel in the aquarium itself that provides a spectacular 360 degree view. Located next to beach #1, a morning at the aquarium and a late afternoon at the beach make for a great summer day. Do not miss the popular mermaid shows!"), was copied word for word from Qingdao Underwater World. Bottom Line: Information copied word-for-word should be cited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs)
- Did you read the paragraph just above? The evidence suggests that your site copied it from WT, not the other way around. - Dguillaime 01:51, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- Not my site. BTW, that's a cool tool (web.archive.org). Anyway, please take a closer look. The current text on wikiTravel was copied word-for-word from here. Why not put back the original text from here. Why did the recent user even change the text? It is apparent that the new revision was copied word-for-word. I suggest that the text from here be used and that further activity on this page be monitored.
- After further review, with (web.archive.org), it is also apparent the ALL of the bus line information (example: LuXun GongYuan: #6, #26, #202, #214, #223, #228, #231, #304, #311, #312, #316, #321, #501, #801) was also copied from Qingdao China Guide and used on wikiTravel. Please have a look. At least the user moved the stop name to the end so that it was not copied verbatim for wikiTravel's beach listings. Where did this information come from? I suspect it was copied from QCG. We should ask for an honest answer from the user who posted it.
The root of this problem lies in the fact that most the edits to this page come from users who have scoured the internet rather than actually visited the place being edited or added. This is NOT what wikiTravel is all about, or is it? Travelers who have actually visited the city should post their experiences and add new content. Again, I suspect that lots of details have been gathered from other sites rather than from the actual establishment be edited or added.
- I can see it now, wikitravelers all over the world waiting at attractions writing down the numbers of the buses that go past. --inas 03:44, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- Thanks! you just proved my point. The bus route information was lifted from another site and copied almost verbatim. Someone had to write down the bus stop name and numbers and it most certainly was NOT the user who posted it here. Doesn't the original author deserve credit for publishing this logistical data? This is not ethical nor should be allowed. Stop taking data from other websites with out proper citation. The idea here is that users should be travelers who have actually visited the location being edited and add original information.
- I'd like to remind the That's QD guy that Wikitravel's talk pages are not indexed by search engines, so spamming links to your site here will not help its SEO. --Peter Talk 04:39, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- You make lots of assumptions. Links were placed for easy reference so those who would like to form their own opinion don't have to Google it. SEO ?? I'm a real traveler currently in Shandong on my way to QD, the weather here is currently rainy and I thus have lots of time to get to the root of this problem. The wikiBeast should be checked before it gets out of control. This problem, that should be addressed, is not just localized to this page.
- Oh, we've only made one assumption - that your agenda is having a link to your website on the Quingdao page. Unfortunately it's against our policy (see Wikitravel:External links), as long as that policy is in effect that is not going to happen - if you want to see that policy changed, the only way is to gather consensus for a change on this page, which I very much suspect is not going to happen. As for your concerns - Wikitravel has a long and proud tradition of dealing quickly and swiftly with copyright violations as soon as they are discovered - even with content we would really like to see added here, since legality takes precedence over everything on Wikitravel. The fact that none of the admins who have posted here have found any reason for concern, should make rest assured that we are not dealing with a copyright breach in this case. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 05:20, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- No, you have made several assumptions--let me correct you.
- 1)IT IS NOT MY SITE. 2)THIS IS NOT ABOUT LINKS. 3)SEO? WHAT?
- Facts: Some WikiTravel users have taken material from other sites, namely QCG, and posted it here. You can use (web.archive.org) to verify this. The bus line data was taken from QCG almost verbatim. I have used their website in the past because they were the only website that published these details. I was somewhat shocked to find them on WT without any reference. This is information piracy, it is unethical and is generally refereed to as plagiarism. It is appalling to think that the administrators of this organization would condone this type of behavior and ignore the questions at hand by constant reference to WT guidelines. Again, information has been taken from other websites without reference and it needs to be removed. BTW, it's Qingdao NOT Quingdao.
- 1) I think you are lying, 2) Fine, but this whole thing started out with you wanting links back to the porpoised "original" source, 3) SEO. 4) Sorry about the typo. 5) Have a good rainy day. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:35, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- As the author of the orginal entry about the Qingdao Aquarium, I can say that it is my own original writing, based on my trip to Qingdao, and not previously published anywhere. I'm flattered that it has apparently been copied to another web site. As for this troll hurling obviously unwarranted accusations of copying at us, sounds like he either just wants the attention from starting a fight with us or he's trying to promote another web site in stupid and misguided way. Whatever his motives are, I say ignore "it' and "it" will go away. SONORAMA 06:55, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- Great! I'm glad at least someone other than my self here has actually visited QD. I'm also flattered that you think QCG is my site. It looks like a lot of hard work by locals was put into providing valuable information that people including myself find useful.
- It's too bad that there is not a third party site that has complete web archives on both pages. Anyway I agree this is becoming a waste of time, but there is no need for name calling, I guess being called a "troll" is better than me calling someone else an "asshole" -- either of which don't help resolve current issues.
- Further it appears that ClausHansen has lifted the bus route details from QCG. This can be verified using (www.archive.org) which unfortunately has limited data. This has not been addressed. Evidence shows that recent updates to wikiTravel have been gained by users scouring the internet for current info, and plagiarizing it here. I don't give a shit about links, this is about the fact that some users on Qingdao WikiTravel have not been ethical. And yes I do want some attention paid to this issue. Ideally, additions & edits to pages should be from users who have actually visited the city and not by "wiki-trolls" scouring the web.
- SONORAMA is a well-established contributor here, and his word ends this discussion, as far as I'm concerned. Gorilla Jones 08:15, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- And who are you? I was never pointing fingers at SONORAMA. Please read all the issues at hand carefully before taking this on another tangent.
- Can someone please take a rational look at this situation? It would be very simple to resolve. first, admit that information does get taken from specialized travel sites and placed on wikiTravel, and second why not just use SONORAMA's original text? This issue has been continued below.
- We are using SONORAMAS original text, as you've been told no less than two times above by yours truly. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 04:38, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
- Issue resolved below. This afternoon I had a great day at the beach here in QD and will post some new info after the cooling of period has passed. Thanks--126.96.36.199 08:12, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
Proof of Information Piracy
I just Googled the text which I think was copied from QCG. How can you explain the results? It appears that wikiTravel users have copied the text since WT's page is not even indexed yet. Here are the bus line details that were also directly copied. When these results are compared to the current Qingdao wikiTravel page it confirms that information was directly copied from QCG. Here are the results for SONORAMA's original text. It seems that QCG did not copy any of SONORAMA's material.
- Oddly enough this entry was done by yet another user trying to sneak in links to That's Qingdao , I'm going to revert to the original version that was there before this pestilence of a website starting messing about our pages. sigh. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:44, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- Indeed, in the entirely likely event that whomever kept adding those links is affiliated with TQ, they could quite legally place their own text under WT's license. - Dguillaime 02:06, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
- It has nothing to do with any particular website(s). Some wikiTravel users are to blame, and I doubt they have any connection with QCG. Why would someone copy there own material and put it on other sites knowing that Google penalizes websites that practice information piracy. Perhaps this was some form of "black-hat" SEO. Anyway the Google results generally don't lie. "Pestilence of a website" -- you must be referring to Qingdao WikiTravel. Why does everyone seem to resort to name calling rather than addressing the issue? I would recommend looking into ClausHansen posts. The above Google results show what text has been directly copied.
- Well, who without a vested interest would change the link to from the official website to thatsqingdao's? I think claiming its just a regular user is a bit far fetched no? In any case we have reverted back to the original wikitravel content, so I consider this issue closed. If you find any more vandalism the good folks over at thatsqingdao have commited here, let us know, and we'll deal with it accordingly.
- And just in case you really are who you say you are, you have missed the whole struggle of keeping that website from sneaking in links to their website, which is a long-standing issue, and might go a long way explaining our hostile attitude towards them, since they/you just don't take no for an answer --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 12:03, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- I really don't have a clue what you are talking about. I don't work for any website, I'm a concerned traveler, you can read the discussion above, who is not happy with the direction that wikiTravel is taking. Information has been taken from other sites and this needs to resolved and hopefully never happen again. I would still not assume that the folks at QCG were behind this. What do they have to gain? I just checked google again and here are the the results. I hope someone over at wikiTravel will take a hard look at it's users. I would still like to know where ClausHansen got his bus line details from? I suspect he too got them from QCG. It seems that I have been attacked for bringing up genuine issues and concerns of plagiarism. Good night for now, I have a long day of travel ahead... Will be in QD tomorrow.
- I don't know where he got them from, but I suspect you might be right in assuming they are from TQD.com, which if true is fine, information such as telephone numbers, addresses, route and exit numbers, bus numbers, location names, prices, schedules etc. is public and factual information, and not subject to copyright as mentioned in the previous discussion. Opposite; reviews, route descriptions are - as they count as expressive content rather than factual information. You can read more about that here --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:15, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
- You say you are concerned with the direction WT is taking? Have you made any edits here from your travels apart from to add links to that other website? If you are genuinely concerned for WT, and are going are on your way to QD, please add the information you find there, improve WT, and make your own issue go away. --inas 01:08, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
- Yes, I have been following this page for several years now and have made several additions and corrections. I have done extensive traveling throughout Asia & South East Asia and have used wikiTravel pages on several occasions. In the past, I have not signed up with a user name because I think it is important that people realize that edits and additions are being made by travelers that are actually in the area. If you use a user name your true location and identity are hidden.
- But what does that matter, lets address the issue...it looks like some wikiTravel users have directly boosted information from other sites and placed the info here. Please see above. Now it appears that some administrative users are trying to avoid the issue because they can't give a rational explanation or proof of concept. I'm currently in QD and would update a few things on the page but it seems edits are not allowed.
My anonymous friend:
Raw data like bus routes, train schedules, hanzi, pinyin etc is not copyrightable, it can be legally copied from anywhere. Do you understand? Yes or no?
Now, if you find textual content that has been copied from any other site into Wikitravel, let us know and we'll take care of it.
If you would like to contribute something useful, then plunge forward, but if your idea of "updates" is deleting random bits of raw data, then no, that's vandalism and is definitely not allowed. Jpatokal 01:50, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
A user name is anonymity, you can check my IP to find out where I am. Again, I just Googled the text which I think was copied verbatim from QCG. How can you explain the results? It appears that some wikiTravel users have copied the text verbatim since WT's page is not even indexed yet. Here are the bus line details that were also directly copied. When these results are compared to the current Qingdao wikiTravel page it confirms that information was directly copied from QCG. Here are the results for SONORAMA's original text. It seems that QCG did not copy any of SONORAMA's material. In general, Google indexes the original text first, and if other sites copy the same text they are most always found much lower in the search results. In the above case, http://wikitravel.org/en/Qingdao is not even indexed. Google also penalizes sites who practice this sort of behavior. It is quite obvious that Google's servers know which sites posts original text and which sites copy them verbatim. Later, I'm off to the beach.--188.8.131.52 02:23, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
- As Dguillaume already demonstrated, SONORAMA made their addition to Wikitravel in 2006 , while QCG plagiarized the text sometime after 2008, since this January 2008 snapshot of their site doesn't contain the text. Maybe you should be bugging QCG for an apology? Jpatokal 02:38, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
- Actually Dguillaume demonstrated that the bus line details were copied verbatim from QCG January 2008 snapshot and placed on WT here . So if one copies this information verbatim what would stop them from coping text which is copyrighted? I don't think anyone needs to apologize, If you compare the two texts as done above(QCG and SONORAMA), they are not that similar (at least according to Google). The (web.archive.org) results are incomplete and their site (QCG) has drastically changed since then.
- Last night I wasted a lot of time with this because I felt that WT was giving QCG a hard time. I have used their site in the past and found it to be an invaluable resource when planning trips to QD. Likewise, I have also used some of the WT pages on travels to Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos and found them extremely helpful. At this point I really don't care if WT leaves the text that appears to be copied from QCG on it's site. Google has indexed it and given authenticity to the appropriate party.
- I have always felt that additions and edits to WT pages should be done by travelers and hope more people take the time to add their travel experiences. I would still not condone taking anyone's data without citation. This is not allowed in educational nor international business circles. It is not professional and I think wikiTravel should set higher standards. Realize the facts and move on.--184.108.40.206 08:01, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
- If anyone needs to "move on", it's you. Chances are the other website and our contributors both got the information from the same public sources. Even if not, information is not copyrightable, only a specific presentation of that information. LtPowers 09:21, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
- I've taken the time to read through all the related posts to this fiasco, and would just like to remind anyone who might be reading this and perhaps new to WT, we're interested in any info. any of you might have to share. You don't don't have to be currently traveling or even visited a location to share some insight that might be able to help out a fellow reader. It's possible lots of info. on WT could change within a very short time period and make a particle article outdated, but the advantage to the Net is the changes are more likely to take effect sooner than perhaps a printed guide. Plunge forward!Zepppep 14:48, 8 September 2010 (EDT)