Difference between revisions of "Talk:Poland"
Revision as of 07:22, 26 March 2012
I removed the following: "In spite of the shared history of suffering, occasional religious divisions come to popular attention. For example, late last century, Jan Gross, a Polish-American-Jewish historian, authored several books alleging that some Poles willingly participated in pogroms and the destruction of Poland's Jewish community. The book prompted painful discussion and fact-finding, made especially difficult by the fact that many Poles also risked their lives attempting to save their Jewish neighbors from the Nazis during the war, and resented being lumped into that category." There has no source, and is irrelevant in this article. Not to mention that this "history" is widely unaccepted. --126.96.36.199 13:54, 12 January 2010 (EST)
I regret I have no enough time to edit this page very actively, but I'll try to help as much as I time will allow me to....
To the point:
I'm not sure what is usual convention on WikiTravel, but I think that naming of cities & reginos should be consistent in terms of language used.
So for example either:
Also if we use 'Pomerania' for Pomorskie, shouldn't we use Silesia for Śląskie, etc. (I'm not sure if wikipedia use right english names, but probably yes, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland)
And here next question. Should we use original polish writing? I mean polish letters as ó (o acute), ł (l stroke), ś (s acute), ż (z abovedot) etc.
For example province in polish is 'województwa/województwo'.
JanSlupski 19:24, 12 Apr 2004 (EDT)
The names of some places near the Polish-German border should be given in both languages as well as English. Some people might still look for Danzig, for instance. Pomerania straddles the border, the western part forming a state with Mecklenburg. Neither "Pomerania" nor "Pommern" means anything but a name, while "Pomorskie" means "by the sea". -phma 00:38, 13 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Add to page
Ideas -- what else should be added to the page... -- JanSlupski 16:51, 9 Jan 2005 (EST)
(from Damian 18-09-2009, been to 10 Polish cities in total now)
It is essential that I inform you on this. Be extremely careful for reckless drivers. Maybe they have no intentions to kill you, but there are really some maniacs out there. While I was at Bydgoszcz I have seen it happen 2 times in 4 days. One unlucky person has been hit by a car and one day later someone completely wrecked his vehicle and had to be towed away. Just stay alert, look 4-6 times to be sure, and then cross the roads. I have seen it many times that drivers come so fast that you can see headlights at the horizon but it is right there in front of you within seconds.
Also, there is a notion of, so called, 'internal roads'. Normally on crossroads without signs you have to yield to traffic coming from your right. But there are plenty of them that are technically not crossroads. The internal roads are often not marked as such and you don't really know if it's a crossroads or not.
Also, traffic in Poland is much much more reckless and crazy than in most other countries in Europe. You could compare it to traffic in Russia, but not in Germany or Austria.
EU and EEA citizens stay duration
User:MD writes: EU and EEA citizens can enter for as long as they like, not just 90 days.
Right and wrong... EU and EEA citizens can enter, but...
Stays beyond three months' duration will require the obtainment of a residence permit or temporary residence permit. This requirement will not apply to persons who perform work or a free profession on the territory of Poland, or conduct business activity here, provided they retain permanent residence on the territory on another EU state, to which they return at least once a week.
Should we put prices on website ?
for example by boat From Sweden: Ystad (7-9 hours, 215 zł) by Unity Line
the time is useful but the prices change quite often so it is hopeless to update them.
Anyway people intrested to visit Poland can check the prices on the website of company.
I am not sure whether I should change into NO PRICE version of wikiPOLAND ?
There has been tendency to put signboard with no commission in money exchange center in old city but in reality they overcharge by giving very less rate.
List of cities too long
Hello, I find the list of cities too long. It streaches the article unnecessarily... Could somebody make it a little prettier pls? Otherwise I could try to do it. --MD 11:07, 18 Oct 2005
Catholics & WW2
Remember that the Polish are very religious, so respect the Catholic Church and the Pope. Be careful not to talk disrespectfull of anything related World War II because Poland and its people were hurt badly. Be aware, however, that the locals will gripe continuously about this subject and if you dare to voice a contradicting opinion, they'll just wave their hands in the air and tell you that you don't understand.
Hmm, I think it starts to be exaggerated.
BTW, what is correct English spelling (capitalizing) of words Catholic Church and Pope? --JanSlupski 17:55, 20 Nov 2005 (EST)
Spelling Edits and Grammar
Anal English teacher here, Polish, born in Australia, living in Torun. Hi.
Edited several English mistakes and to make some thing sound a little better. Just one question about Hitchhiking...
As in any country, you should be careful, there are several reports of Polish hitchhiking trips gone awry, so take basic precautions and you should be as right as rain.
I don't necessarily agree with this statement, particularly 'right as rain', and I think most Poles these days steer clear of Hitch Hiking as it is quite dangerous, as it is throughout most of the world. Do you think we should keep it, modify it to suggest it's not advisable, or leave it. I would lean towards the 2nd option of modification. khrystene 14:05 1 Deg C Torun 4 Jan 2006
Respect: Remember that the Polish are very religious, so respect the Catholic Church and the Pope. Be careful not to talk disrespectfully about anything relating to World War II because Poland and its people were hurt badly. Be aware, however, that the locals will gripe continuously about this subject and if you dare to voice a contradicting opinion, they'll just wave their hands in the air and tell you that you don't understand.
Sorry but I know this has been brought up,but this really annoys me. Why should people not discuss 'difficult' topics?! Poles like a good discussion, just be prepared to back up your views, and to be 'enlightened' on opposing views.
I'd like to see this removed personally. The only respect I've seen that is really not looked well upon, is the blatant 'tourism' during church services and while people are praying. Yes Poles are religious, and yes churches are open to visitors and tourists, but you should be repectful in these place, and flash photography should be avoided. IMHO! khrystene
Although this is common, it does not mean that you will definitely be mugged or targeted, and public transportation is mostly safe by day. It should be avoided by night unless you are with a larger group of people.
The information was already given on how to stay safe, and this was added after the questionable information on young kids and their brothers coming onto trams and buses and beating us... sheesh! Section - "Stay Safe". It's just too much. Seriously. khrystene
Regions & Cities -> Regions, Cities
I split the section on Regions & Cities into two sections: one for regions, one for cities. Lists of which cities are in a region should go on each region page; there's more room, and it's more cogent.
I also removed the piped versions with the Polish spelling. We use the English spelling of place names because those are the ones that English readers will recognize and use. It's reasonable -- nay, necessary -- to give the local spelling of a place on that place's guide page, but we should use the English names for navigation and reference.
Finally, I trimmed the list of cities under Cities. The cities listed at the country page level are supposed to be shortcuts for the best-known or most-sought-after cities in the Country. I'm not exactly sure which these would be, so I trimmed it down to those cities I'd actually heard of. I have eclectic reading habits, so some of these may be far off. For example, I know Zakopane from Susan Sontag's novel In America, and I know Bialystok as the home of L. L. Zamenhof. So there may be others that belong on this list, but... hey, that's what wiki's all about. --Evan 12:58, 19 Jan 2006 (EST)
We no longer use a separate section for external links - relevant information from pages outside Wikitravel should be reworked into the guide. Therefore I'm removing this link on ecotourism from the article. -- Rmx 13:02, 8 Feb 2006 (EST)
I moved these tables here for a couple of reasons
I'd rather see a general introduction to the national park system of Poland, with links to specific parks in the appropriate region page. Exceptions would be the 1-3 really really famous/important parks that we may want to hightlight at the country level (like the Gran Canyon or Angkor Wat). Majnoona 14:05, 9 Feb 2006 (EST)
I wouldn't say that this article is a stub anymore - I'd rate it as quite usable, indeed. -- 188.8.131.52 16:16, 9 Feb 2006 (EST)
Location maps for cities
A Wikipedian granted me permission to license his work under CC-by-SA 1.0 so that I could make some location maps for Polish voivodships and cities. I've already placed these maps into the voivodships' articles, but I was pondering would it be wise to make maps for specific cities so that we can clearly identify the location of a Polish city for fellow Wikitravellers? Here is an example of one on Wikipedia's Lodz article. The problem with most of the maps already on Wikitravel is that they are only available under GFDL so I'll have to make to the maps and then license them under CC and GFDL. Does anyone else find something like this useful? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 01:31, 28 July 2006 (EDT)
A major rewrite
I have rewritten some parts of the article. Please let me know if you like it. CandleWithHare 15:36, 29 July 2006 (EDT)
It's me again. I have removed some sections that I think are redundant. If you disagree or sth you know what to do (better than me because I still don't know how to indent properly). CandleWithHare 16:14, 29 July 2006 (EDT) Here they are:
Outside of the tourist areas, you'll find that many Polish businesses don't like to give change. For example, if you buy gas at a gas station and the total comes out to 52,47 zł, and you give the attendant 53 zł, it's more common than not that you will not receive any change at all.
Living in this country for 22 years, I have never heard of such thing. I think it must have been an isolated case.
The USA-like emergency number 911 can be also called from cellular phones (on the Plus GSM network for sure).
Maybe it works, but it is not documented anywhere, so it can just stop working someday - the day when you need it most. I think it's better to give the reader only the official numbers (there's already too much of them).
There are also certain neighbourhoods in most cities that should be completely avoided by foreigners/tourists. An example would be the whole Praga District of Warsaw; especially at night.
Praga is actually the most interesting district in Warsaw, with all the lofts, climate and artistic venues such as Fabryka Trzciny. In some cities there could be some districts better avoided, but let's write about them on individual cities' pages.
** PlusGSM prefixes: +48 601, 603, 605, 607, 609, 691, 693, 695, 697, 661, 663 ** Sami Swoi (PlusGSM subnetwork) prefixes: +48 885, 887 ** Era prefixes: +48 600, 602, 604, 606, 608, 692, 694, 696, 698 ** Heyah (Era subnetwork) prefixes: +48 880, 888, 889 ** Orange prefixes: +48 500, 501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 512, 513 ** CENTERTEL NMT (old NMT network) prefixes: +48 690
First, I think it's too much details for a country page. Second, it is becoming outdated as people are now allowed to keep their phone number after changing the network and they're using this facility.
If you are using a cardboard sign, you should write city codes on it. The country has 16 regions, and the first letter in car number indicates its region, the second one - city. But beware, sometimes drivers will only know the code of their home region, not the place where they are going to. For example WA - Warszawa, BI - Bialystok, EL - Lodz, KR - Krakow.
Not being a hitchhiker I may be wrong, but I think it is better to write just the full name of the destination.
Polish is a very difficult language for native English-speakers to learn, although knowledge of Latin will help tremendously. It is notoriously difficult because of its unrelenting strings of consonants in words (like the city Szczecin). It's best to get a pronounciation guide or phrasebook well in advance -- if you go in cold, you won't be able to read anything properly.
Polish isn't a difficult language for a speaker of English. In fact, no Indo-European language is. If something were difficult, it would be the grammar, not the pronunciation, because compared to English, it is trivial (constant paroxytonic accent, no vowel reduction, spelling based on pronunciation with few exceptions). It's Mythbusters' time! :)
On countryside do not drive at nighttime in poland if you are new. Roads are marked minimalistic, and they may go up and down a lot. like this cars from opposite can appear unexpected from such a sink in the road, it's impossible to forsee this in the dark. As well if you get into some fog, it is very heavy fog. The air is moderately polluted making any fog very thick.
Basically: "At night, it may be dark in Poland". Please put it back if I'm wrong.
Regions and Cities and Parks and UNESCO Sites and Mountains and Lakes...
The sections at the top of the article seem to have gotten a bit out of hand. Rather than a list of the top-level regions and shortcuts to 9 or fewer major cities, and maybe a short list of non-city destinations, we also have lists of just about every possible destination in the country with sometimes dozens of examples in each. For a large and complex country such as Poland, this kind of detail should be moved to the region articles, with lists of just a few most popular sites under "Cities" and "Other destinations". I'd try editing this down myself, but I know nothing about where any of these places are, nor which are the most popular destinations. - Todd VerBeek 17:46, 1 August 2006 (EDT)
Ok, anonymous; I understand your objection to the use of "far right," but why did you delete this: "Poland is now governed by a coalition of right of center and populist parties. Some people you will speak to will despise the current administration and may cause a heated debate."? The wording I've chosen, in my opinion, is fair. The PiS party is right of central, even a little, right? If so I think we should use the preceding text so to find a middle ground. Otherwise, we could even say "center-right," or does that somehow cause confusions as to how far right the current administration is? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 12:53, 20 August 2006 (EDT)
According to Wikitravel rules Welcome, Wikipedians we shall use templates and be in line with them. I've noticed that there are some chapters (more or less the first five ones) to be sorted out, improved, splitted, moved etc. I'm gonna do it soon. Any proposals appreciated. Moon5 10:02, 25 October 2006 (EDT)
criticism about Paris
I do not want to change the page right now before there is a consensus. I spent my life in France (near Paris) and I can tell that anyone will be very happy of a tourist tries to speak French. No matter how. And nobody will scoff at you. Invite for comments before changing the page :)
Maps of Poland
Would it be acceptable for me to add a link to the Unofficial Map Project of Poland? UMP has created usable maps for Garmin GPS recievers and the free Mapsource program. Their site is located here (in english): http://ump.waw.pl/index-en.html ...And the install software is located here: http://ump.waw.pl/mapy/ump-wawa-setup.exe
The maps include routing information and, for large cities like Krakow, Warsaw, Lodz, etc... fairly detailed and up-to-date street information (e.g.: the Mogilskie roundabout has been "removed" from the Krakow section).
I figured it could go in the "Get Around" section?
Automotive "thank you" blurb...
"Historically, some people also used to flash the warning lights (all indicators simultaneously) once or twice as a way of saying "thank you". This is now outdated, the proper/modern way of saying "thank you" being a right/left/right indicator sequence, or similar. The usage of warning lights is the same as in Western Europe nowadays."
This is, at least in the Malopolskie voivoidship, not at all accurate. The so-called "outdated" method is the only one I have ever observed in the two years I've lived in Malopolskie. Even the bus drivers in this area will flash their hazard/warning lights twice if you let them merge. I've never, that I recall, seen the R/L/R sequence.
Driving to Poland from the UK
What is the best way of driving from the UK to Poland (Auschwitz-Birkenau)? Would you recommend driving through Germany (via Hannover/ Dresden) or through south Germany and across Czech Republic into Poland?
Center of Europe is in Poland?
The article states:
"Geographical centre of Europe is situated in Suchowola - city in north-east Poland..."
I have heard/read numerous times that it is in southern Lithuania--can the above statement be verified?
Also, is the Polish language really nothing like Russian? I know only a little Russian but have been surprised how many words are similar. (Maybe the original writer had a little Polish Russophobia going on?) Journey91456 13:07, 24 September 2007 (EDT)
That is true, as much as for the Dutch to understand English - in both cases most of population (in Poland or in the Netherlands) had at least some classes in the other language. Similarly, there are lots of words in Dutch or Danish which sound exactly as in English, but I would not say that the languages are similar. There are quite some English living in the Netherlands but hardly anyone can say anything in Dutch, except for badly pronaunced 'goede morgen'.
"Also, do not say that Poles would be better off writing Cyrillic (an actual quote)" Where; I don't understand it; the person is not making any sense. I can write Polish in both Latin and Cyrillic like Serbo-Croatian and would not make a difference. Even if it were official, it wouldn't make a dent.
It appears as though the regions hierarchy for Poland is, to put it in technical terms, all out of whack. I can't make heads or tails of it—What contains what? What are the borders of these regions? For example, Masuria is listed as a top-level region, but it's also contained within Warminsko-Mazurskie, despite the fact that that is not listed in the main article. Are they the same thing? I was hoping to use this as a guide for the Russian version, but I'm left just puzzled.
To be VFD'd
Assuming that we're going to stick with voivodships as second-tier hierarchical units, the following articles do not qualify as articles as per Wikitravel:What is an article?. They are all about mountain ranges which cross different regions and I would VFD them but they all contain long lists of already created village articles, so I just want to make sure nothing gets orphaned and keep them around during the coming mad structural reorganization of the Poland articles, just in case.
Texugo 10:30, 12 March 2008 (EDT)
The Polish mountains are in the south of the country, with Rysy (2499m) being the highest point.
Whittling down to 9 cities
Here are some city descriptions I eliminated to get us down to 9 cities:
I nominated the current nine based on nothing but population. If you feel something else is more relevant, go ahead and substitute it and explain here. Texugo 10:54, 12 March 2008 (EDT)
Hey Sapphire, don't you think the map colors for the north and south regions are a bit too similar? Can we get some yellow or something for one of those? They are almost identical on my monitor. Texugo 01:48, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
Because the Other destinations should not be a repository for cities that can't make the cities list, I have removed the Seaside section. Here it is:
Once Pomeranian and West Pomeranian Voivodships are subdivided into regions, we could link directly to the region articles. For now I just put an entry linking to the province articles.Texugo 02:45, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
Peter commented somewhere, and I agree with him: Why do we need to include the word "Voivodship" in the title of every province? Unlike Russia with its Oblasts, Republics, Rings, Regions and miscellaneous uniquely named places, all the regions at this level of Poland are "Voivodships", which seems to me the equivalent of putting "State of" in front of every state in the US, Brazil, etc.. If we use it in the introductory line of every article and cut it out of the article title, it'll save some good space in the breadcrumb navigation and calm my sense of redundancy. Can we discuss? Texugo 04:03, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
Saying "thank you" after handing money, when paying in a restaurant/bar/hotel, will very often be interpreted as you don't want any change. Jamboo 05:49, 20 March 2008 (EDT)
the issue of Polish-Austrian relations doesn't seem touchy at all, could the people who wrote that elaborate what makes them think so?
Other destinations list is l o n g
The list of other destinations on this page (as well as on many other country articles) is just too long. Someone looking for overview information on Poland simply doesn't need that much information up front, and is likely to be overwhelmed by it (as I am). That's why we limit lists on articles (country articles in particular) to nine. That said, it is handy to have a quick reference list of all national parks, UNESCO sites, etc. in a country. I propose moving the current lists to Poland travel topics which would serve as a quick reference in the form of simple pointers to the articles in question. Then we should leave a list of the nine most notable other destinations in Poland. I think this would also be a good model to take care of this problem on other country and region articles. Thoughts? --Peter Talk 19:32, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
Bit too negative
Czesc! The section towards the end about safety, etc. is too negative. It should make clear that Poland is a SAFE country. I will accept that people who are non-white may certainly be stared at and violence has been reported (I've seen it on one occasion) however for north European tourists it's less safe than other countries. Yes if you're an asshole then you should expect trouble but that's the same in the UK. I lived in Poland for over 3 years and my Polish was not good (so always recognized as a foreigner) yet I NEVER received hostility and almost always got positive intrigue. It was great. Sure, unlit and run-down areas of big cities may be dangerous but would you venture into such an area back home? Big cities are like any other big European cities. Small settlements and villages are not a problem at all and indeed an amazing opportunity. As for the repetitive advice about tap water in the article, are there ANY sources for this? Polish people always said 'don't drink the tap water' but people say that in every country. Poland is a modern country - if tap water in an establishment isn't potable then there will be a sign (an even a nice picture sign) making it perfectly clear. Don't ruin the environment by buying yet another bottle of water like all the middle class idiots around the world who seem paranoid by the liquid that emerges from their kitchen taps! Poland is a brilliant country. The language is difficult and you'll probably never master it but there's no reason why you won't learn a lot of it and it's pronunciation is easy to get used to on the whole (it's phonetic unlike English) and when whispered into your ear by a loved one it sounds just as romantic as French or Italian.--184.108.40.206 19:16, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
New map and a list of ODs
I have drawn a new regions map for Poland in the Wikitravel style. If anyone spots any glaring omissions or errors please do say so here. Whilst doing this I noticed there were no OD's listed in the article. And this, the country with probably the best national parks in Europe! I have added a list of 9. Please anyone who knows Poland well suggest changes if this list does not seem right. --Burmesedays 11:23, 15 May 2010 (EDT)
If we want to keep the voivodships (not sure if its necessary), then I think it'd be logical to use them under these historical regions. Then it would be like this:
It's a bit ahistoric though, as some of the voivodships go right through historical divisions. Also, the Carpathian Mountains voivodship doesn't cover all of the Carpathian Mountains. Yet, I think this is better than the random combination we have now (leading to an Eastern Poland that is not even connected, Silesia that is cut through and a Central Poland that is way too vast). --globe-trotter 06:33, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
Region : potential mistake
Łódź is not a part of Greater Poland present Województwo Łódzkie (Łódź Voivodship) covers some cities that historically had been part of Greater Poland but Łódź always been a part of Central Poland.So same changes are needed. Especially that Łódź is classified as a important City in Greater Poland —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JakubPiotr (talk • contribs) 14:27, 16 October 2010
I have made a few additions throughout the article, but the biggest changes I made were to the By Car section as it often oscillated between moaning and slurs and was generally unnecessarily bitter and exaggerated. I've added some explanation and advice. Some of the deletions and changes with reasons:
Even busy roads are usually lacking in proper lane marking so night driving is frequently a matter of luck.
Keep your headlights on and you'll be just fine. I'm removing all sarcastic comments from here as this is a travel guide, not a therapy for authors' frustrations.
Driving in Poland is stressful, time-consuming and dangerous…
Dangerous? Leaving children with matches is dangerous. This is just driving.
As long as you keep by the main roads and concentrate (keep your wits about you) you should get to where you are going fairly easily but not quickly, and don't expect a relaxing drive.
Again, hardly informative or based on fact. What is going to happen to you if you don't stick to the main roads exactly?
If you stop at a red light, expect to have someone swing out and get in front of you.
Don't expect that. Most certainly won't happen.
If you drive below the speed limit, you will probably get tailgated as impatient drivers drive up close behind and flash their lights, attempting to force you to get over into a slower lane or on the hard shoulder to let them past. There usually is no slow lane - the roads are mostly two-lane - or half the slow lane is so pot-holed that you are likely to leave your suspension behind if you drive in it. If there is a hard shoulder, which is infrequent, do not be tempted to drive on it as it is against the law and if you hit someone or something, you will be liable. If there is no hard shoulder it is unwise to get too close to the edge since it will likely not be finished off properly and thus full of potholes. Visitors have also reported drivers aggressively pushing in front of them and then slamming on the breaks or throwing things out of their windows, presumably to vent their annoyance at not being let past.
I have explained some of it earlier in the text. Don't move to the side if you don't want to, don't cross a contiguous line. The roads are not in as bad conditions as you suggest and no one will leave his suspension anywhere. The anecdote is hardly believable. Even if it did happen to someone it is not something that should be expected.
Driving in cities can be difficult; city streets are crowded, often narrow, and you need to watch out for trams.
Just like anywhere else.
When estimating driving time, if you are not familiar with local conditions, it is safe to double your best guess, especially at peak times.
Uninformative - what is a 'best guess' that could be safely doubled? Driving in cities may take long anywhere in the world, Polish cities not being different here.
This is often not made any easier by the high kerbs, but logic and driving in Poland don't usually mix.
See my first comment.
110 km/h on dual carriageway car-only roads, and 130 km/h on motorways / freeways (autostrada).
Increased to 120 and 140 accordingly from 2011.
as there often is no logic in the assignment of priority in traffic flow
(ie. the lower quality, narrower and slower road coming in from the left may have right of way.)
The priority is given to the most frequented flow, which unfortunately isn't always reflected in the build of the crossing. LikeAPossum 22:42, 27 February 2011 (EST)
Russian and "przewóz osób"
I totally disagree with the statement about avoiding Russian language. Most of people that are in their 40s or older do speak Russian very well and using Russian is not considered as rude at all. Of course this only applies if a foreigner knows what language he is really using. Never take Russian for Polish and vice versa, this is extremely impermissible. Much more risky is using German language (except for the western Poland).
Also I think it would be worth mentioning that in bigger cities there is a service called "przewóz osób" e.g. iCar which is much cheaper than TAXI and easier for foreigners to use because the driver always tells you the price before he starts.220.127.116.11 13:28, 7 February 2012 (EST)