The comment about Hindi books in India is very true, although India is an ideal place to learn Hindi! ;-) Jeremy 16:10, 17 Feb 2004 (EST)
I am interested by this. Should we use the Devanagari script? Yann 09:55, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Of course. It'll take some explanation of how to put letters together (e.g. rkshi looks completely different from any of the individual letters), but it's not that hard to learn, and it'll be easier to find a Hindi keyboard layout than one which has d's with dots under them. See Greek phrasebook and Hebrew phrasebook. -phma 10:41, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Agreed. However, phoneticizing the phrases in the phrasebook becomes more important when there's a non-Roman script used.
- This is a good phrasebook to start. --Evan 10:50, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Agreed. I like it. Jeremy 16:10, 17 Feb 2004 (EST)
Should Hindi and Urdu be two phrasebooks, or one phrasebook with two scripts? -phma 15:49, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
I'm voting for one phrasebook with two scripts and a lot of explination. We don't have two phrasebooks for France-French and Quebec-French and Hindi-Urdu is probably even closer (more info than you probably want at http://sasw.chass.ncsu.edu/fl/faculty/taj/hindi/abturdu.htm, http://www.geocities.com/sikmirza/arabic/hindustani.html). I would suggest moving the page to Hindi-Urdu phrasebook though, just to be clear and fair. Majnoona 23:01, 19 Jan 2004 (EST)
- ok for me. Yann 04:56, 20 Jan 2004 (EST)
- I put most of the pronunciation key in and moved it, ready for you to type Nagari instead of the transliteration, but since I don't know the language, only how to pronounce it, that's it for me. -phma 22:38, 21 Jan 2004 (EST)
I added a consonant to the combining vowels, since without it they were attaching to the previous Roman letter or the parenthesis. They still look weird; in particular the short i, which should be to the left of t, is to its right. I don't know if it's my X server (XFree86 4.2.1), my fonts, or something else. If you have a proper Nagari setup, could you check? -phma 20:29, 25 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Yes, that's weird. It's OK on Konqueror, but wrong on the Mozilla. But if I exchange the letters, then it is the opposite. :( Actually, I don't write much in Hindi with a computer, so I don't know what is the right way. I will check on http://hi.wikipedia.org/ Yann 15:45, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- According to http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch09.pdf , the consonants and vowels are stored in phonetic order, so the way I typed it is correct. On mine the page looks right in Mozilla (1.3a), but wrong in Konqueror (3.0.99). So it's probably a bug in the Unicode rendering library that Konqi uses. What versions do you have? -phma 19:11, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Oops, I didn't notice that you switched them. The i should go after the t, but should show up to the left of the t; but on both Moz and Konq my computer shows the i to the right of the t when i is after t. So maybe it's a bug in my fonts, or in X. -phma 19:29, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
This page is becoming quite long. Can it cut in two? Yann 16:24, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Most of our list of phrasebooks are pretty long. So, please don't. --Evan 16:35, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
When entering the phrases, the words in parentheses should follow the pseudo-phoneticization guide as closely as practicable for Hindi ("kh", for example, is not the ach-Laut but an aspirated "k"). Before that should be the phrase in Nagari and Arabic script, if you can type them. If the Hindi phrase is different from the Urdu phrase, put them on separate lines with <br> between them. -phma 22:08, 26 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Well this phoneticization system is Chinese for me. ;o) I will let somebody else write it. And although I didn't have any problem understand and be understood in Pakistan, I don't know Urdu. Yann 03:14, 27 Jan 2004 (EST)
- Can you at least indicate the syllables and the stress? I know the rule for Classical Sanskrit, but don't know how it's changed since then. I did some numbers as an example. -phma 07:36, 27 Jan 2004 (EST)
If anybody is still following this article I am making it a project of mine to improve this phrase book. I added a clearer chart, and changed some things around. I would love suggestions and ideas, or disputes to my changes. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, I can always discuss proposed changes in the future if anyone feels cheated. There are quite a few things I would like to discuss/collaberate on, as well as ideas I have. Like can we just delete the good morning and other time elemental greetings? Just because there is some arcane Sanskrit word doesn't mean it needs to be here. The same goes with things like 'sorry', 'excuse me', 'thank you', etc. though shukriya is probably used more in Urdu than it or dhanyavaad is used in Hindi. And for polite usage, the English word or phrase is generally used instead. The KH, GH, f, z, also need to be added as does the candrabindu perhaps, though modern usage doesn't require it. The modifying diacritics could also go after the consonants. Also religious terms could be added, like mandir, masjid, gurudwara, etc. As could city names, and significant sites: taj mahal, red fort, etc; the Islamic and Western calender, holidays and festivals (e.g. Holi, Divali, Ramazan), et cetera ad infinituum! I just want to give a heads up, I believe there is much that needs to be done here! Let's make the phrasebook for the world's third largest language on par with its status!
On stress, Hindi is a very flat language, like Spanish without accents. There is no stress, as there are in Vedic hymns, etc. However, syllables could be noted especially when because of a suffix, or sometimes after 'ra' there is no inherent 'a'. Otherwise syllables are pretty much just counting vowels! eg. na1-ma1-ste1. I was thinking of adding IPA, but I don't know IPA well enough yet and therefore not confident enough with it to edit. i.e. I don't know whether to use a schwa, lambda or backwards epsilon character to represent the inherent 'a'. I could use help regarding this issue.
On seperating Hindi and Urdu. YES! We've probably all read the Hindi-Urdu FAQ, etc., and Bollywood itself is very mixed. In short, there is no such thing as "pure" Hindi, except maybe in the grade schools of Bihar! However; unlike Québécois and Français, we are talking about different scripts, different histories (not to imply France and Québec don't), and in the case of Urdu much more Turkish, Arabic, and Farsi elements, like the izaafat. And most importantly, religion. Though India has one of the largest Muslim communities in the world (3rd, 4th?), let's face it; Hindi is colored with Hinduism, and Urdu, post partition has become even more consciously Islamic. I would love to find a way to put them together, but I'm not sure the page is wide enough for most people to fit on their screens (esp. longer phrases): --Phrase | Transliteration | Devanagari | Nastaliq/Naskh | Pronunciation | IPA-- whether in a chart, or other formatting. And I'm not even getting into the variants each language has Persian/Devanagari, etc which could be rectified using the aforementioned <bk>'s, but still wouldn't simplify matters enough. The former reasons mentioned are why Urdu is often considered a seperate language by linguists on sociological grounds http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hin . If anyone wishes to help me tackle the Urdu, an invaluable intro to nastaliq can be found at http://users.skynet.be/hugocoolens/newurdu/newurdu.html . As well as an urdu dictionary here: http://www.urduword.com . btw, among my minor corrections so far I corrected the fact that Arabic numerals actually do go left-right. It was an understandable mistake though for anyone not familiar with the quirks of Arabic.
I'm currently at the end of my second year of Hindi, and besides any help any of you can provide, I plan to talk to my teacher, classmates, and Indian friends for help. For the time being I will at least start wikifying the Urdu alphabet - though I hope it will be seperated. I use Mac X.4 and Safari browser. Everything looks fine to me. Sorry if anyone is having problems. If anyone would like links or good books/dictionaries suggestions, just ask. I always welcome suggestions beyond the ubiquitous Snell book myself! Khirad 17:13, 23 May 2005 (EDT)
- I would also recommend splitting Hindi and Urdu into separate phrasebooks. If the experience with Malay and Indonesian is anything to go by, even though the languages are very similar, there are enough small differences to make a "shared" phrasebook quite difficult to compile and use — plus for Hindi/Urdu you also have the hassle of completely different scripts. Jpatokal 23:45, 23 May 2005 (EDT)
- Well, now that I've gone ahead and done it, I don't know how happy I'd be in seperating them! haha. There are its advantages of putting them together, but yes the different scripts were my main concern, and indeed can be a hassle. This is still very much under construction, which is of course obvious. I just mean to say I'll work on wikifying it later to conform more to standards. After looking at other phrasebooks I should shorten this alot as well. But I am in a quandry, for there are things which are unique to India, as there are anywhere, esp. non-occidental areas; and that I feel every traveller should know these things in regards of South Asia. Customs, potential western faux pas, etc. Many can go in general Indian and Pakistani articles, but some things should be included here as well. For instance, what to do when greeting someone. Though India is not only the home of Hinduism, but also the most densely populated, it also has significant religions minorities, whereas the most populous Muslim nation's minorities add up to only app. 10%. The great religious diversity of India adds also to its linguistic diversity and thus, greetings, etc. And on a humorous note, I'm not sure how important it is to be able to say "I don't eat pork" in India! (pork was the source of an uprising after all one of the only times Muslims and Hindus ever agreed on anything!), but I'll include it anyway as it isn't forbidden to Parsis or Sikhs/and to conform to standards. I also feel incredibly embarrased to have changed the format so drastically and opting for tables. I thought it looked much cleaner and is much easier to use with different scripts - and I believe, more user friendly as well. The other way looks primitive to me, but that's just my ever so humble opinion, no offence to anyone. Will I need to change this back? and if so I'm sorry. I've added perhaps too many indoabbr-esque footnotes! I added to my esteemed predecessor's notes. I wish I could link directly to wikipedia articles and avoid the long winded explanations - because on one hand, these things are significant, while OTOH unneedingly add to the length of the article. I also wanted to add an example of nastaliq writing, which isn't supported by unicode (and would requre the profound effort put into codifying Chinese), so I wrote out an example myself and uploaded it to commons [Nastaliq example], but I guess the phrase books don't allow images or something. In India and Pakistan even signs are written in Nastaliq, it might help a traveller to know what it looks like! In any a case a link would help this, oops forgot...pehaps in further learning. Anyways I've found there is a fine line between a bare-bones phrasebook and an all-out textbook on the language(s). I'll work on finding a happy medium and erasing superfluous material (even though none of it is to me!) later. I guess my vision for an Hindi and/or Urdu phrasebook is different than the layout given, but hey, I'm being bold and plunging in. right?! The layout must be modified a little for any language I would think. But regardless, I'll fix stuff after I have completed adding stuff, promise. Other people shouldn't have to clean up my mess later! ... Oh yeah, I forgot, is there an easy way to '! align right' for the Urdu, without affecting everything else? Still new to wikimarkup language. And if so, can I specify it for a column or do I have to do it word by word and phrase by phrase? That would not bode well with me... But it would look better than it does now, which gives the impression that Urdu is written left-right, and is just plain wrong in any case.