EE vs Ertmann :-P
Is this page necessary? Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 20:14, 20 November 2008 (EST).
Also why is left rude, I find that very offensive as a lefty myself. Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 20:16, 20 November 2008 (EST).
- non withstanding this should be merged with the Pakistan article, in a Respect section, the left hand thing is merely stating facts - if you eat with your left hand in Pakistan and India you'd mostly be making a fool of yourself, and in conservative families probably act disrespectful. I don't get why you'd be offended by this? it's a centuries old tradition, necessary when you eat with your hands (You don't want to eat with the same hand you've just wiped your arse with 10 minutes ago) so they just decided on a standard that easy for everyone to follow, and easy to teach the kids. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:31, 20 November 2008 (EST)
- Well it's offending because it is discriminating to one of my qualities. It is stupid and a dumb flaw of the culture. It's basically saying if you eat like that, your an idiot-which is not the case and you should not be judgemental of that. You know, you'd be ticked if they'd say the same about righties...you wouldnt wnat to be made a fool of just because you eat a certain way. Also, I wouldn't mind eating with the same hand because I would have washed my hands so it's all clean. Why should they be this closed minded - it is so rude to foreigners. Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 20:35, 20 November 2008 (EST).
- Well - no - As far as I've gathered you've never been outside North America, and while Canada and the States have their small perks, it's essentially the same culture, so I guess it might be natural that you don't quite get this. But I've been to 34 different countries, and always done by best to respect local customs whenever I've encountered them - even when it's been at odds with my personal beliefs. I'm the visitor, and I don't believe I have any business telling people how they should behave in their own country. If I came to some obscure place where people ate with their left hand, being offended wouldn't even cross my mind, and it would definitely count among the most minor of personal adjustments I'd had to make while travelling.
- Well I can't really just drop using my left hand for my right-you don't learn these things overnight and you shouldn't have to-you should have a culture that is accepting of all types of qualities-should it be different from other places sure, but at the same time, it should not be discriminating. I guess you take it easier than I. But you really shouldn't have to change your habit like that. This is a much larger example, but it's like no Australian people allowed in Pakistan, they'd be offended, and they should not have to move to Jakarta or Aukland to change that-I know apples and oranges, but it does have similarities. Do you see where I am coming from? Yeah I have not been outside the continent (been offered a couple times) so yeah, I am used to the North American culture of open mindedness and not so discriminating (yes we have those, but not to the likes of other places), I think Western Europe would be the same aswell as it has similar beliefs as North America. Although, you'd be surprised at the American-Canadian differences, yes we have a lot of similarities, but it's much less than you'd think-talk to me if you wanna know. That's all. Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 21:01, 20 November 2008 (EST).
- That's real travelling for you mate. The thing is, if I came to a small village in the famous land of Ugulubululu, where everyone is born left handed, and since it was colonised by Pakistanis, have all been eating with their left hand in objection of their Pakistani rulers since seventeenhundred-and-something, and I came into a restaurant with a smile on my face, greeted them in their local language, and fucked up big time eating with my left hand (trust me, it's hard even with my right hand) - but was a good sport about it and gave a clear impression that I tried. I'll bet you a million, that I'd have have a good time, have some locals coming over to teach me how to do it properly, and get some other great advices (and probably drinking buddies) in the process. If I on the other hand, came in silently, sat down at the table (as I would do in my own country), asked for a knife and fork, and then proceeded to eat with my right hand... well you get the picture. You can fuck up all you want, what matters is that you are trying --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 21:28, 20 November 2008 (EST)
- But it should not have to change you like that-I'm sorry you don't get where I am coming from. Also what do you mean "real travelling", you are saying I've never really travelled? Well I quite prefer North America and 90% of the places I want to go are on the continent because I really like North America. The other 10% is Europe and Oceania. Maybe Japan - but thats very "North American" but you wouldn't find me in China or the Arabs because I don't like their culture as much. Ugh...I see your point, but do you even get mine? Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 21:35, 20 November 2008 (EST).
- No offence, but yes - you should have to change like that, and yes - I do get where you are coming from, and yes - I am saying that you've never really travelled. The first two point's I've explained above. The last point, yeah, the nearest "real" travelling you're gonna' do is Mexico (and I'm not referring to Tijuana or Acapulco), the rest is holidays. And if you can't see my point, then it's just probably best to stick with the US and Canada. Don't get me wrong, there are some world class destinations in those two countries, I mean I'd LOVE to visit the nationals parks of Alaska and northern Canada, I'd love to see Edmonton, ski in Banff (actually I really really want to ski in Banff) or cruise around San Francisco in red convertible Mustang - but if you're from Alberta, I still think the nearest point where you'd really be travelling is Mexico. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 21:58, 20 November 2008 (EST)
- well we obviously have different ideas on travelling. the places i've been are not very different than places i've been culturally but they are different and a new experience and it is definitely travelling. i'd even consider the 3hr drive to calgary a travel. but it depends what you make of what you do there. if your just going to meet up with friends and thats all-your not travelling. if you are going to explore the place-whether a mm away or 1000000 km away, it is travelling. how don't you get that? it's quite a putdown when you say i've never travelled. Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 22:28, 20 November 2008 (EST).
- No, I actually think the above post is pretty balanced, and very much to terms with my ideals. I love Canada, both my best friend and my ex girlfriend (which I'm still very close to) is from there - It still feels like I have extended family there, so I actually have a closer connection to the place than you might think (while I've admittedly never been west of Ontario). One of my favourite points about Canada, is how much more internationally minded they are (compared to the Americans I've met), And I really love the unique harmony of the multiculturalism of Toronto, which might help explain why I am reacting the way I am. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 22:43, 20 November 2008 (EST)
- That same multiculturalism is probably why I don't get why they aren't open minded. Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 22:45, 20 November 2008 (EST).
- Coming into the conversation late, but I'm afraid I'll have to take issue with you saying Japan is "very North American". Yes they like North American things: movies, music, etc., but you might be surprised what things can make you look or feel like an ass around here: plenty of odd rules about how to use chopsticks, writing or eating left-handed is discouraged from a young age in more traditional communities and some families feel it's important to keep your left hand in your lap as you eat. Never walk while eating anything. You might be expected to use the communal bathroom shoes that only reach 2/3 of the way to your heels while you balance on your toes taking a shit in the squat toilet for which you hopefully remembered to bring your own wiping material. You may be denied entrance to the gym or the hot spring if you have a tattoo. You might even be denied entrance to a club or restaurant or you-name-it for no other reason than because you are non-Japanese. Not peeling your grapes or apples makes you a weirdo. And Canada or the US or Europe is no less weird to Japanese than Pakistan or China might be to you. Of course one has to do one's best to adapt. And it isn't right or even realistic to say that another culture should be different. Who are you to say? Texugo 23:57, 20 November 2008 (EST)
ee, I think you missed the original point here. In Pakistan (and most of the world outside US/Europe, for that matter), instead of toilet paper, it's standard practice to use water and your left hand to clean yourself. It's also common for dishes to be communal, so everybody sticks their hands into the same dish when eating. Knowing this, would you like to see people putting their left hands into the dish that you're also eating from? Jpatokal 00:15, 21 November 2008 (EST)
- I assume that wasn't directed at me, although I was off on a tangeant... Texugo 00:19, 21 November 2008 (EST)
Hhhhhhh...I look like such a fool!!!!! I didn't mean JP was very North American, just more compared to China. I know traditional is still big there and they have different things within their culture. I don't really mind about the shoe thing (taken em off) because that's what we do in Canada. I don't even know how to use chopsticks, haha. And what is so bad about being left handed, it's like a curse or something-every culture is against it (except N american/Euro). I am taught not to eat and walk, but I do sometimes. Things us Canadians learn are different from what you Americans learn, I hope you know. I kinna figured about the toilet paper-same as in China. I don't really get the last part of what your saying-ellaborate. Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 00:18, 21 November 2008 (EST).
- I was just giving you some example of some things that people with non-adaptive attitudes might find offensive about Japan, since Japan was on your "safe" list. And besides the focus of your history books, I don't think US and Canadian educations are all that terribly different, nor our cultures, for that matter. In fact, as a born-and-bred Texan, I have had Canadians assume I am Canadian at least a dozen times (both in Texas and abroad - not in Canada). I'd love to argue the differences and similarities, but of course the Etiquette in Pakistan page is not the place for it. Texugo 00:29, 21 November 2008 (EST)
- No I wouldn't want thant but they would know that I ccome from a developed country where that does not mattre and if they see me using my left hand it should not be a problem. BTW, you forgot Canada, Australia, New Zealand...although China and Japan are starting to change for that from my recollition. Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 00:32, 21 November 2008 (EST).
- Tex, if you are interested in going off to that, go to my talk page :). Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 00:32, 21 November 2008 (EST).
Edmonton, i've been to all the continents exept antartica. Whenever I go to a place, I respect the local culture and try to do what the locals do. And whats this about being close-minded?
So what if they want to use a different hand, first, it's not THAT hard, second,it's how these people live. They invited you into thier home, gave you food, giving you a place to stay, don't you think that you should observe their pratices and manners?