Copy of VFD Discussion, July 2009
This seems like a useless disambiguation. Does Wikitravel really aim to list EVERY Chinatown in the world? ChubbyWimbus 19:22, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
- No, but we should certainly list the ones for which we have articles. =) LtPowers 20:08, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
- Keep. It's an odd disambiguation, but better to have the links than not, both for the odd search and possibly for our own SEO. And actually, this one is a borderline travel topic. --Peter Talk 20:53, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
- Delete. The question here is whether this is a true disambiguation, or whether it is just the start of a list of attractions of a particular type. If it is just a list, which I think it inevitably will be, is it one of true interest to travellers, or is it just a Wikipedia style obsessive list making type of list? --inas 21:37, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
- I think Inas is right, and Wikipedia already has a list. See here . Our "Chinatown" page is definitely moving to mirror the Wikipedia page as articles grow and are added (I added some myself to see what it would look like prior to the Wikipedia search). As far as helping the traveller goes, maybe we should give the travellers a little credit. Someone searching for a Chinatown would likely put the city in the search with it. If they don't, and they are just searching in the cosmos for any old Chinatown then I would question the seriousness of their travel plans. If it were made into a travel topic, then what sort of information would we add to make it useful? The name "Chinatown" is probably as good of a description as any. ChubbyWimbus 01:01, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
- The wp list contains loads of travel-irrelevant junk. (I've heard rumors that a Baltimore Chinatown did at one time exist, but I'm skeptical of even that.) The current page is more useful (and interesting), since it only links to Chinatowns that we actually cover.
- Our policy on disambiguation pages gives When destinations share identical names as one of the three cases when such pages can be used. This is clearly such a case—Chinatown is place in NYC as well as a place in Chicago, D.C., etc. I don't see any reason to delete it—a coherent collection of blue links like that may actually raise our search engine profile with people doing vague google searches for "chinatown". --Peter Talk 05:08, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
- As long as we keep it to articles that we actually have, rather than any city that could be said to have a Chinatown, I think this disambiguation page is necessary and useful, just like Downtown. LtPowers 10:06, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
- I can't believe Wikitravel has a Downtown disambiguation. A little embarrassing... Even the small town I am from has a "downtown" area. That's about as useful as creating a disambiguation page for McDonalds and listing every city with a McDonalds. So the real rationale for having these pages is to get Wikitravel on Google? I don't really consider them to be "destinations with the same name" as NYC and Chicago do not have the same name, and certainly "Downtown" is not a "destination". I agree that the pages aren't hurting anything, but they don't seem useful either. ChubbyWimbus 17:50, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
- I agree. The downtown article is definitely useless, and verging on plain silly.
- The suggestion of limiting entries on a disamb page to geographies for which we have an article isn't current policy or practice for disamb pages. If we are going to make a list of Chinatown's, then we should at least aim to be fairly comprehensive. --inas 20:21, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
- I think districts are a special case. Yeah, we list redlinks for every community with a particular name on most disambiguation pages, but Chinatown and Downtown are clearly going to be districts; I see no reason we can't restrict those to just the ones for which we have articles. LtPowers 21:01, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
- Should we then add all of the districts titled with "East", "North", "South", and "West" to those disambiguation pages? Should "Uptown" get it's own disambiguation? What about "San"? These sorts of disambiguations just seem ridiculous. Travellers shouldn't need babied to such an extent that we create disambiguation pages for non-destinations. Just because someone types "ass" into the search, doesn't mean we need to create a disambiguation page to help them find Assisi.
- Also, how do we distinguish which we "have articles" for? For example (going back to the Chinatown article): the Philippines entry I added is not Manila/Chinatown however, the page says it's the Chinatown of Manila. The Japan entries are just links to the city pages, because these cities are not large enough for districts, but they have Chinatowns (and they're quite famous). Is this supposed to be a disambiguation page just to list Wikitravel's travel breakdown (aka: city/Chinatown) or is it a list of actual Chinatowns? I feel like you are suggesting just adding the designated Wikitravel category breakdowns, but that seems rather arbitrary, because we would then need to delete all the Japan entries and the Philippines entry. ChubbyWimbus 21:45, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
- I'd be interested in your reasoning here. For example Sydney has a Sydney/Chinatown article. This looks like it is going to change to Sydney/City South. However, Sydney still has and will have always have a Chinatown district , regardless of how we choose to district the city on WT. If this article is a disamb, we aim to direct people searching for Chinatown to the appropriate district on WT. Assuming we want a list, why would we want the list to be less than comprehensive? --inas 21:23, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
- I didn't read LtPowers as saying that only articles called 'Chinatown' would be included on Chinatown. We have coverage for Sydney's Chinatown, whether it's on Sydney/Chinatown or Sydney/City South, so it would belong on the page. In any event, I think again it's more useful to think of this page as partly a travel topic as well. Chinatowns tell an interesting story about the Chinese immigrant experience, one that can be quite interesting to a cultural anthropologist. The more Chinatowns I've seen, the more interesting I find the next one. Gorilla Jones 21:58, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
- I know this is under Chinatown, but concerning Downtown, it would have to work the same way, but that list would be insanely long! Otherwise, as stated for the Chinatown, it simply becomes an archive of Wikitravel category breakdowns rather than a complete list of cities with "downtowns". I don't see how either of them could be used. Although I don't necessarily feel that Chinatown is a "destination", someone is much more likely to use that page than the "Downtown" page.
- I certainly don't want to put words into LtPowers keyboard, but As long as we keep it to articles that we actually have, rather than any city that could be said to have a Chinatown, sounds like it would exclude Sydney's Chinatown if there wasn't actually an article for it.
- I agree that it could make an interesting cultural travel topic. This assumes that someone is going to come along at take it on. As I (and others) have said before, travel topics work well when someone takes on the initial work of getting them over the usable hurdle, otherwise they will more than likely languish and do the site a disservice.
- And yes, obviously none of this reasoning applies to downtown. --inas 22:30, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
- Agreed about Downtown. I'd vote 'delete' on that. Gorilla Jones 23:03, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
- Since this could be converted into a travel topic, I suppose I will revoke my objections against Chinatown. ChubbyWimbus 00:04, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
- Keep. Completely valid disambiguation page or even a travel topic, if curated attentively. Gorilla Jones 18:09, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
- Delete. Since it hasn't been receiving attentive curation, it's less useful than simply searching for "Chinatown". If an enterprising user comes along and decides to make it a true travel topic, they can recreate the page. - Dguillaime 14:22, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
- Keep. The given reason for nomination, in my opinion, is completely ridiculous. --GnarlyLikeWhoa 19:21, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
- Is that a substantive objection? I can see a line reasoning why we would want to build lists of Chinatowns around the world, and I can see a line of reasoning why we would benefit from a travel topic on Chinatowns and how they evolved, and where they are, and I can see a line of reasoning why having an index article to articles we have is a good idea. We don't quite know which one of these the article is trying to be, but there is some logic behind each of them. There is also a line of reasoning against each one. Building lists is best left for Wikipedia obsessives, we don't need it here. Having a travel topic as a long term stub detracts value from the site. There are a limited amount of resources, and an infinite number of travel topics are possible - we can't keep them all. If someone can't push them into usable articles then they should be deleted until someone is willing to step up. Having index articles as disambiguation article is a good idea, but when the name is so generic, it has little value to guide the traveller.
- Which of these lines of reasoning do you consider to be "ridiculous", in your opinion? --inas 20:12, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
- Inas, your comment doesn't make any sense. I considered ridiculous the reason given for the nomination. I agree there are many many different reasons for keeping it, including all the reasons you gave.
- Do you understand how it may be baffling for me to ingest that last question? I didn't consider any of those reasons you gave to be ridiculous, only the thinking that we can't gather all the Chinatowns in the world. As I've stated on this site recently, this should be the most informative and inclusive site on the internet. To have all the information, or not have all the information, that is the question.
- Simply deleting an article because it doesn't have all the Chinatowns in the world is not good reasoning.
- In addition, I wasn't aware I even had to give a reason for my vote. If I do, sorry! Maybe I should have consulted you before I cast my vote for Obama.--GnarlyLikeWhoa 12:27, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
- It does state above that commments should come with reasons under the "Commenting" header. My argument was not that it should be deleted because they are not all listed; I was questioning whether or not the list itself was useful. Also, once it was mentioned as a travel topic, I had asked what people suggested could be added to make it an informative travel topic. Both have been addressed to varying degrees. The comments may be difficult to follow, because upon mention of "Downtown" as an article, many of my comments (and others) were directed at that. Anyways, as a travel topic it has potential to be interesting, but I do question whether someone will actually make it a travel topic or if it will just remain a list. ChubbyWimbus 15:47, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
- Gnarly - the votes for deletion page, is misleading, because it isn't actually just a vote, we are trying to reach a consensus one way or another. The only way that will work is if you try to convince others of your arguments, and you are willing, in turn, to be convinced by them. Sometimes, when the overwhelming sentiment goes one way, or you are convinced by someone else's arguments, there is not much use for reasons - they are apparent. But this one is a bit controversial, so substantive arguments and an effort to understand the other points of view get us closer to a consensus.
- And your question To have all the information, or not have all the information, is right on the money IMO. I'm certainly in favor of not having all the information. Exhaustive lists is not what I think WT is about. -inas 19:17, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
To revisit this (in the hopes of perhaps reaching a resolution), what is our goal for the Chinatown page? Is this going to list worldwide Chinatowns (which there is a push against) or is this going to be a travel topic? If it is a travel topic, how do you propose preventing it from becoming a large list? ChubbyWimbus 02:21, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
- We're pretty far from any consensus on this one, and it is part of a larger unresolved policy issue of when to disambiguate district articles that should not be resolved on the vfd page (it should be resolved at Wikitravel talk:Disambiguation pages). (If the article were curated as a travel topic, then it would clearly be a valid article, but it is not.)
- So until we have that discussion, perhaps it would be better to keep for the time being, and copy this discussion to Talk:Chinatown? --Peter Talk 16:52, 26 October 2009 (EDT)