sources to research
-  -- Barcelona overall; many restaurants (in Russian)
-  and  -- restaurants and tapas bars of Barcelona (in Russian)
--DenisYurkin 11:27, 29 May 2010 (EDT)
traditional brunch in Barcelona
I love the Spanish Sandwiches, but sometimes I just crave a proper breakfast. There is a very unique event produced by www.homecookingbarcelona.com. They host a brunch event every Sunday and serve the best burger and all the traditional breakfast dishes like American pancakes, English breakfast, salads, New York Bagel (bagel and lox) and they have English Sunday papers and big screen projection for Sunday sports. I vote that this event be included as one of the special things-to-do in Barcelona. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs)
ToDo for the article
See Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week#Unscheduled nominations.
What you think about a link to this page? The page is part of the WorldFlicks site. It shows Barcelona on Google-Maps, with user-selected photos from the highlights of the city projected on map. It is perfect for a virtual tour through the city.
My suggestion: put a link under 'See', for example "Visit Barcelona , a virtual tour through the city". I think this link would give value for people who want to visit Barcelona. What do you think? RonaldR 07:59, 6 November 2007 (EST)
- See Wikitravel:External Links for Why Not. --DenisYurkin 16:58, 6 November 2007 (EST)
quality of hotel/hostel/hostal recommendations
Some hotel recommendations sound overly positive and are not very informative. Sometimes you wonder if it's not plain publicity. Can those familiar with the places edit the paragraphs, add more information and give more "objective" ratings? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs)
hotels and restaurant by quarter
I think that the hotels and restaurants should go in their quarter page, except the ones that haven't got it.
If not, people won't find them (there are restaurants in Old town, Barceloneta, Gracia and Barcelona's main page....
I'll move them in some days, if nobody has another opinion.
- I think that sounds great. It might be worth looking at the huge city article template for some ideas about how to split up info between the city page and the district pages. For example, it might be worth pointing out some good districts to eat in, or some notable restaurants, in Barcelona#Eat, but leave the full restaurant listing for the district pages.
- Thanks for continuing to do a great job on this city! --Evan 15:45, 29 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Bus route website
I tried the mobilitat.net URL and got redirected to a page on la Generalitat saying "URL inexistent". Anyone know where it went? -phma 23:55, 14 Jul 2005 (EDT)
A great deal of info on Barcelona´s public transport, including busses, can be found at www.tmb.es (Transports Metropolitans de Barcelona)
Hi all. I was with my parents in Barcelona and we were driving around looking for a hotel and stopped at some traffic lights, when suddenly two thieves came up to the door - one was the distraction and opened the doors on the right side of the car (didn't steal anything) and the other quietly open the door on the left side and stole my bag: I lost my camera and mobile. It could have been worse but we were really shaken after that and left the city immediately (reported it to the police after that).
Lesson learnt: always lock the car doors, even when you're inside the car Aidan 07:23, 10 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Be a bit careful while riding around the centre, especially aqround Via Laietana. Avoid small, dark and alone streets in the centre at night. Barcelona is not a dangerous city at all, but, as with all the big touristic spots, you need to be a bit aware.
- YUP I am a BCN resident, and in NOV 2008 and then again in DEC 2008 (both times near the Arc de Triompf) I witnessed the same thing being described above: two young middle-eastern looking guys come up and steal visible bags, opening the car doors. Folks, lock your car doors, you're not in Kansas anymore!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs)
Someone has just listed McDonald's as a viable choice for lunch in Barcelona. That's great! I bet everyone goes to Catalunya eager to taste the unique flavour of the Spanish Quarter Pound. Mind you: KFC's and even Hard Rock Cafe have made their way into Barcelona too. You'll never feel hungry again!
- Please, Barcelona has a very excellent spanish food! Mc Donals, KFC's, HRC,... no it's food, is rubish food.
so i was trying to edit out the first person ad-like text in the apartment rental sections and i decided that im not sure if any of this content is appropriate for us. they seem like secondary sources and i dont have a good/quick way to tell which are legit. comments/ suggestions? majnoona 13:44, 28 dec 2005 (est)
- list of web sites removed by Ryan as sites not in compliance with Wikitravel:Accommodation listings#Apartment listings were adding their sites here
dear [user:maj|majnoona] i think that list of directory could be interesting for visitors!!!
- if you read wikitravel:external links it says to only use primary sources. i think the problem that majnoona has here is she cannot tell the businesses that are actually renting the appartments from those that are just advertising the appartments and seeking an (extra?) commission as a finders fee for any traveler that blunders into them. what is just as interesting is trying to use a google search to find a holiday apartment/accommodation somewhere and having to wade through all the trash the advertisers put out. as a result the truly legitimate businesses that actually personally rent accommodation get buried because they cannot be identified. -- huttite 15:52, 29 dec 2005 (est)
- apartment listings are a hard one-- theres been some talk on the irc channel, but no real solutions as to how to put together a policy that distinguishes between what we want and what we dont (its one of those i know it when i see it deals). so were leaning on the side of not allowing any apartment listins, just noting for travelers that this option exists/is popular. were not looking to replace google search or yahoo directory... majnoona 10:26, 16 feb 2006 (est)
- i went ahead and blew away the apartment listings. the problem i see with them is that its a magnet for people who are more interested in getting that commission, and not in improving wikitravel. jonboy 12:25, 21 feb 2006 (est)
i have deleted some sources that are just advertising apartmetns and seeking an extra commission
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs)
I've again removed the list of apartment rental sites - for whatever reason, the Barcelona article is a magnet for people who own aggregator sites, and within hours of editing that section for compliance with Wikitravel:Accommodation listings#Apartment listings it seems that new non-compliant sites get re-added. -- Ryan • (talk) • 10:57, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
- I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. Could we just (say) blacklist persistent spammers instead? Jpatokal 11:25, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
- I think this was bathwater with no baby, but I've restored the listings with street addresses. If someone with more time could actually follow the URLs and see if these are valid listings it would be appreciated. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:38, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
- This section was deleted by Peterfitzgerald as he considered this entire section spam. I´d like to hear other opinions before removing this definitely. Is the below useful information or spam? (As a sidenote: I´m the author of the 3th comment. I was quite surprised to see my comment on the Discussion Board marked as spam. If i´d known that, I wouldn´t have bothered answering. IMHO the answers provided are valuable. Also, if this is spam, what about the section English language media in the main article?)
- I've removed it again, and lets have a discussion before restoring it. It looked like none of that information would pass our Wikitravel:External links criteria, and would be removed from the article if posted there (if I'm wrong, feel free to add it to the article). Hence it was posted here. But talk pages are for discussing the article in question, and for nothing else. Certainly not for circumventing our policy on external links. --Peter Talk 13:22, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
I have added a few provisional new topics including travel to and from Barcelona. I was looking for information regarding how to get from the airport to the city. Also information about hospitals and health care.Please feel free to fill the information.Sulfis 07:35, 13 August 2006 (EDT)
Oh, please "Barcelona has some of the best restaurants and cafes in Europe" is clearly false to anyone who has been there. It's actually quite difficult to find good food in Barcelona. It is well worth the effort to look as I have had one amazing meal in Barcelona, but you could just as well enjoy eating poor quality sandwitches & drinking a lot of Cava which costs almost nothing at cute & sociable Cava bars.
- Please feel free to make changes to the guide so that it is more accurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs)
Ok, just because eating junk food in a junk part of town gave someone a bad impression doesnt mean there aren't any good restaurants. Think about it: if you eat a bad hot dog in New York City, you don't complain that there's absolutely NOTHING to eat in New York City. There's literally a restaurant of some sort on every block. The same thing can be said about any major city. I am positive there is good food in Barcelona SOMEWHERE. Let's find it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs)
I think this may possibly be the dumbest thing ever written on wikitravel. If you cannot find good food in Barcelona you might as well give up travelling. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs)
Depending on where you are in the city, there may be restaurants galore, or none at all. The following areas tend to be restaurant "hubs", with a large variety of restaurants to choose from: Barcelonetta, Eixample Izquierda (between Gran Via and Mallorca), Barrio Gotico (especially for tapas), and "El Borne" (next to Barrio Gotico). It´s true that food in Barcelona (and Spain in general) may not always satisfy an American palate, as seafood, fish, and meditereanean cuisine tend to predominate. One must also get used to the idea that many if not most restaurants serve "tapas" which are meant for sharing, and not individual meals - one aspect of Spanish food culture. Around Plaza Catalunya there are dozens of restaurants serving excellent tapas. If you don´t know what to choose, ask the waiter to bring you a selection of popular ones. If you´re looking for a place where everyone can choose their own meal, ask for restaurants that serve "platos combinados", which is the closest thing to an American/Northern European meal. Time Out Barcelona is a good source to find restaurants. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs)
- →I've incorporated this into the article; please welcome to edit the article further: Barcelona#Eat. --DenisYurkin 16:24, 22 November 2010 (EST)
Just had lunch with friends at the Juicy Jones restaurant. The only good thing I have to say is that the service was friendly. I'm a person who is quite happy with most foods but all of our dishes were terrible. In case it wasn't bad enough, they also added strawberry sauce on top of my pizza....
Just don't go there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs)
I've temporarily protected this page, mostly in the hope of getting an editor's attention. Wikitravel:Accommodation listings details the criteria for listing an apartment rental agency in a Wikitravel article, and explains why edits have been (repeatedly) reverted. Another sysop should un-protect this page as soon as it is reasonable to do so. -- Ryan (talk) 03:35, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
I was in Barcelona a few days ago and I thought it would be useful if this page gave information on useful Spanish and Catalan phrases. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs)
- It does... it links to our Spanish and Catalan phrasebooks... see Barcelona#Language – cacahuate talk 20:01, 6 August 2007 (EDT)
why Harbour aerial tramway moved to Barceloneta?
I wonder why "Harbour aerial tramway" info was moved to Barceloneta article from Barcelona.
Am I right that it can be both from Montjuic and Barceloneta, as well as from the mid-point in the downtown? If so, it would look more natural to have detailed info in the Barcelona article, while only providing brief mentions on it in the respective district articles. --DenisYurkin 17:11, 11 September 2007 (EDT)
- The aerial tramway/ cable car runs from right by the beach in Barceloneta to Montjuic there is no stop off mid town. The fare is around 5 euros and gives splendid views of the city between Barcelonetta and Montjuic. The is a mid station, yet it is not possible to get off here and is not near downtown Barcelona.HJ.Phillips94 13:12, 24 February 2009 (EST)
- Moved back to Barcelona, as long as it doesn't belong to any single district. --DenisYurkin 20:00, 4 March 2009 (EST)
Barcelona's cuisine is hit-or-miss
- Barcelona's cuisine is hit-or-miss
What exactly is meant by this? Can we say the same with simpler words without changing the meaning? --DenisYurkin 17:27, 11 September 2007 (EDT)
- This guide uses the following price ranges for a typical meal for one, including soft drink:
What should we call a typical meal for Barcelona? Is it menu del dia, or a main course (in the same place, price for simplest pasta can be different from a large steak fivefold), or something else? I would vote for menu del dia when a cafe/restaurant has it, and when it haven't, choose some reference plate like paella which can be found in most places. Comments, please? --DenisYurkin 17:38, 11 September 2007 (EDT)
districtifying Sleep section
Recently I talked to Oriolbcn and he contributed the following contribution on how to districtify the Sleep section. Oriolbcn has also performed most of the work on moving listings into their districts; today I finished with that.
Please share your comments if there's anything wrong or could be improved. --DenisYurkin 13:31, 19 September 2007 (EDT)
Hi Denis, as it's suggested in the "contribute" part of the wikitravel rules for business owners, i'm giving you (as oposite to change it myself) the list of all hotels, hostels, etc. listed on the main article that should be placed in the different districts:
- BTW, what exactly made you think that you can't contribute yourself? Was it this piece?
- One thing we ask you never to do is to remove information about your competitors.
- But it's only about removal of other listings. Anyway, if it causes confusion and allows misreading, please help us to improve the WelcomeBizOwners page that I referred you to. --DenisYurkin 16:10, 20 September 2007 (EDT)
- Abba Sans Hotel: Eixample
- Best Western Premier Hotel Regina: Eixample
- Grand Hotel Central: Ciutat Vella
- Granados 83: Eixample
- HCC Covadonga: Eixample (in this case it's Sarria St Gervasi, for 10 metres but as this district is not listed...)
- Hotel Barcelona Catedral: Ciutat Vella
- Hotel Contado: Eixample (Same as Covadonga: it's Sarria St. Gervasi, for 50 metres...)
- Hotel Cuatro Naciones: Ciutat Vella
- Hotel Lloret: Ciutat Vella
- Hotel Gran Via: Eixample
- Hotel Lleó: Ciutat Vella
- Hotel Omm: Eixample
- Hotel Silken Concordia: Eixample (Same as a couple before, this is Poble Sec distric, but just for 10 meters)
- The Royal Ramblas: Ciutat Vella
All of them except the following cannot be located as they are agencies offering apartments in different locations
- Apartments Tasmania: Ciutat Vella
- Aparthotel Silver: Gracia
HOSTAL & PENSION:
- Pensión Norma: Gracia
- Pension Alamar: Ciutat Vella
- Hostal Levante: Ciutat Vella
- Athome Barcelona Apartments: THIS IS AN APARTMENT AGENCY
- Nice Barcelona Bed and Breakfast: THIS IS AN AGENCY ALSO
- Las Ramblas Bed & Breakfast: Ciutat Vella
- Hostal Barcelona City Centre: Eixample
- Pension Barcelona City Ramblas: Ciutat Vella
- Guesthouse Barcelona City Urquinaona: Eixample
- Barcelona City North: Sarria St Gervasi (sorry this is too much inside this district to call it otherwise... maybe gracia)
- Bohemia Barcelona: Eixample (this shouldn't be called a hostel though, as it has a "Pension" license)
- If it does affect traveller in any way, we should mention it. But how it does, in fact? --DenisYurkin 13:46, 19 September 2007 (EDT)
- Well this is tricky, it affects the definition of a hostel and a pension, and in some cases the border between them can be quite blurry... I guess it depends on the spirit of the place, more like a hotel: nobody talks and meets nobody, or it's a more comunal place where travellers share their experiences, etc. In the end is how they want to define themselves, or the person who wrote the description feels the kind of place it is... I guess we should leave it as it is... Oriolbcn
- Residencia Australia and Hostal Central: Ciutat Vella (same thing as before, their license is a "student residence" for the first and a "pension" for the other.
- They are located in the Eixample Both are liscensed as Pensions. All hostals are licensed as Pensions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs)
- The Welcome INN: Ciutat Vella
- Itaca: Ciutat Vella
- Kabul: Ciutat Vella (as it's stated in the same description)
- Pere Tarrés Youth Hostel: Eixample
Oriolbcn, do you mean that we'd better have "Sarria St. Gervasi" district for these items: HCC Covadonga, Hotel Contado, Barcelona City North? And "Poble Sec" for Hotel Silken Concordia?
--DenisYurkin 13:46, 19 September 2007 (EDT)
- This is also tricky... I'm not sure I have an answer... In Barcelona there are a number of districts apart from the 4 that are listed in the article. I'm preparing a description of them all with the official borders to share with you when finished... However in terms of giving useful information to the visitor, even if those hotels are "legally" in another distric, they are so close to the better known one that it might be more informative to name the better known name than the other... I don't know... In some of the cases above the difference is being on one side of the street or on the other!... What do you think? --Oriolbcn
- I guess that for now it's OK to stick these businesses to the nearest district we have.
- And yes, we absolutely need suggestions on how we can define district borders. Maybe you can share what you already have, even if not all districts are covered yet? It will really help to start a discussion towards reaching consensus. --DenisYurkin 15:03, 29 September 2007 (EDT)
Els Quatre Gats
I removed the following piece on Els Quatre Gats until we reach some consensus:
> In should be a tourist trap - but it isn't
I've been in Els Quatre Gats, and found nothing that make it NOT a tourist trap. What was the reason for such a characteristic? --DenisYurkin 08:13, 10 November 2007 (EST)
Menu del dia for 21 euro, the one who wrote this must have been drunk. It's 12,97 + 7% Value added tax.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs)
- Looks like I've filled it out on a weekend. Right now I can see menu del dia for Sep 20 (Saturday) on the link you've provided. And it's 23.90+VAT:
- De 13.00 a 16.00h 23.90 € +7%IVA
- I'll take a look at it on a weekday also. --DenisYurkin 16:43, 21 September 2008 (EDT)
- It's 18.50€ on Monday, Sep 22. --DenisYurkin 16:45, 22 September 2008 (EDT)
removal of the Cafes section
I disagree with removal of Cafes section, as it IS helpful for traveller:
- it is useful to know that StarBucks IS available in the city--for those who find easier to trust the brand he knows rather than going through trial-and-mistake with local cafes
- before we have a good coverage of proven local cafes in the region, it's better to list Star Bucks than to list nothing
- it is as NOT ubiquitous as it normally is--so those who normally rely on it in other cities can't always be sure it's easy to find, and thus either should have other recommended places in hand, or should be ready to walk long enough to reach the nearest SB
As for Capuccino:
- it IS ubiquitos
- it looks attractive enough to try when there's nothing else to try. For example, in Born area one expects that Starbucks should be there, but it is not. So he tends to try Capuccino--and the experience shows he shouldn't, but should seek other place.
- we have the following mention in the avoidance policy: If a destination has only a few reviews (or a few accommodation options), and some are negative, do not delete them — some information is better than none.
I can think about making the text less advertising, but I disagree that these facts should have completely no coverage. --DenisYurkin 17:15, 8 December 2007 (EST)
- Regarding Starbuck's, I'm going to stick to my guns here and say it is totally unnecessary. In all of Wikitravel there are currently only 12 articles which even contain a mention of Starbuck's. Not even all of those actually list Starbuck's in the Drink section, and I'd say none of them should, as they are all just random places which happen to have a Starbuck's. I feel Starbuck's to be in the same boat as McDonald's or Pizza Hut when it comes to desirability of listing. With regard to the negative listing of Capuccino, I'd also still say to axe it, though my feeling isn't quite as strong as with Starbuck's. I'd say axe it though, because 1) there are at least 3 other positive cafe recommendations in the district articles, and 2) Cafes is not an official mandatory section header in the first place. Because of these 2 things, I don't believe it really qualifies for the exception mentioned in the avoidance policy. Texugo 21:09, 9 December 2007 (EST)
- I think that mentioning Starbucks (rather than a listing) is mostly harmless, but also a bit pointless if they're as ubiquitous in W.Europe as Mickey D's. Similarly, mentioning Capuccino as a low-quality local chain would stop short of an outright "avoid" listing, while still providing arguably useful info to the traveler. - Todd VerBeek 11:58, 11 December 2007 (EST)
- Here is my question: Seeing as how Starbucks has over 13,000 locations in 42 countries and continues to open an average of 7 new stores a day, would it be OK with you to mention Starbucks in the articles of every city that has one? Really? Because if not, why should it be mentioned here in this case? To me the precedent this sets seems to imply that if it's OK for a city as big and with as many options as Barcelona, then we might as well mention it in every mediocre middling-size city in Japan, Thailand, South Korea, etc... Personally, I really don't want to see that slippery slope.
- Another thing, I think Denis's first argument about listing it for those who want a brand they know is fallacious and a rather counter-productive attitude for a guidebook to have. For one, it could serve as an argument to list every McDonald's, Outback Steakhouse, TGI Fridays, and Pizza Hut in the world just so people can have food they trust. However, while we certainly want to offer a couple of comfort food options for, say, the weary traveller who is tired of eating pickled fish penis and seaweed all the way across the Japanese countryside, we still try to avoid pointing people towards international mega-chains in the Japan articles. I remain unconvinced that we need to cater to the sorry bloke back in Barcelona whose day is going to be ruined if his morning coffee isn't from Starbucks. If people are that afraid to try new things, maybe they should just stay home. At any rate, I'd rather write guides that emphasize good things to try that can't be found just anywhere. Besides, with 17 Starbucks locations in mostly the more-trafficked areas of Barcelona, I find it unlikely that anyone could spend more than a few hours there without happening across one anyway. Texugo 19:07, 11 December 2007 (EST)
- I agreed that it was pointless; sorry I'm not as emphatic in my dislike for it. - Todd VerBeek 19:35, 11 December 2007 (EST)
For now, one thing to add to this discussion: recently we saw that Starbucks was added to the Moscow article. Do you guys mean that this listing should be also removed from Moscow as well? --DenisYurkin 15:14, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
removal of El Glop
Texugo, what was wrong with this piece? Why have you removed it from the article?
- El Glop dela Rambla, Rambla de Catalunya, 65 (Eixample), .
--DenisYurkin 16:58, 13 December 2007 (EST)
- Ummmm, hmph. I have no idea, no recollection of that. However, I have been trying to move all the restaurant listings to their respective district article page, and that one is clearly in Eixample, which is where I have put it now. Texugo 18:41, 13 December 2007 (EST)
Guys, this hostel: Barcelona Dream, listed in the Barceloneta district sleep, is not even in Barcelona city. It's located in Badalona. A close by city. We could discuss if it could be of any use to list it in "La Mina" or some other neighbourhood, but definetely not Barceloneta. I remove it for now. Oriolbcn 27 dec 2007
Hotel Covadonga Website
The Hotel Covadonga's website is www.hotelcovadonga dot com. Some kind of spam filter isn't allowing me to add the URL - it's suspicious of the "donga dot com" part... Anyone who knows a way around that, please add it!
(This hotel is listed in the /Eixample page, but I can't seem to add a comment there - no idea why it's not working, and no error message. Sorry about that.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs)
- I added this to the spam whitelist and it seems to be working now. Texugo 18:32, 7 January 2008 (EST)
Barcelona article is divided into districts. Can someone define borders for the districts used? We need to have a consensus on district borders to be sure everyone uses the same district name for the same area of the city. When we have a consensus, I'd propose to include district borders definition into Barcelona#Districts, as Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy#Districts in cities suggests. --DenisYurkin 17:12, 23 August 2007 (EDT)
The following set of districts was recently added to the article. I reverted the edit--let's discuss it here first:
- Barcelona is divided into 10 districts, but the most important and interesting for visitors are:
- Ciutat Vella - Barcelona's old town, including the medieval Barri Gotic, plus the seafront area of Barceloneta
- Eixample - modernist quarter, noted for its art nouveau buildings
- Gràcia - historically a working class neighborhood, now rather gentrified, and very lively
- Sants-Montjuïc - includes Estadi Olímpic Lluís Companys, the Magic Fountains and the Poble Espanyol
- The other districts are:
First of all, can we define borders for the districts that we already have in the first place--Ciutat Vella, Eixample, Gràcia, Barceloneta?
After defining borders for them we can proceed to adding articles on the rest of the districts. --DenisYurkin 18:07, 27 September 2007 (EDT)
- For the same reason, I am reverting addition of Sant Gervasi . Let's reach consensus first whether official districts are convenient division for an average traveler: Talk:Barcelona#official borders. --DenisYurkin 15:01, 21 September 2008 (EDT)
- i just inserted sants by mistake... not sants-montjuic.. but i think it's better to keep a seperate page for mountjuic anyway, which is more "do" then barrio.. i guess it's pretty easy to seperate ciutat vella (everything in the gothic centre..) from eixample (south of diagonal) and gracia (north of it..). i don't know whether it makes sense to add non-touristic barris like horta etc.
- nagchampa 18:16, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
- Thanks for your ideas on Ciutat Vella, Eixample and Gracia. But what exactly is "Gothic Centre" then--what borders does it have? Maybe, by which streets is it bordered?
- And do you have ideas on Barceloneta--where are borders between it and other district(s)?
- As for Sants and Montjuic: we still don't have borders for them, your suggestions? ;-)
- Until we reach some consensus on district list and borders, please don't add new districts to the article (and I reverted Sants for a while). It's always easy to create a bunch of new articles, but it's really hard work to rework existing articles if we change our mind on list of districts or borders between them. So let's reach a consensus first.
- --DenisYurkin 04:52, 3 October 2007 (EDT)
- Hi there, here's some clarification about the districts (please someone correct the english):
- 1- Ciutat Vella: The historic district, circled by walls until 1859, and today circled by -looking at the map from left to right-: Avda Paral·lel, Ronda de sant Pau, Ronda de sant Antoni, Plaça Universitat, Carrer Pelai, Plaça Catalunya, Ronda de Sant Pere, Plaça Urquinaona, Carrer de Trafalgar, Passeig Lluis Companys, the Ciutadella Park, and the sea on the South.
- It's divided into 4 parts: from La Rambla to the west it's called the Raval: the working class part of the old city. In the center, from La Rambla to the east until Via Layetana, we found the Gothic Quarter: It's the oldest part, with the goverment and the city hall main buildings, and lots of palaces and gorgeus noble houses. To the east of Via Layetana, we have La Rivera quarter, it was the medieval expansion of the city and it's mainly a popular neighbourhood with some of the finest churches (Santa Maria del Mar, Sant Pere) and the modernist esplosion of El Palau de la Musica Catalana. To the south we can find La Barceloneta, it's the newest part of the old district. Was mainly a fishmen neighbourhood, created in the XVII century to relocate the people that had to leave La Rivera when the construction of the Ciutadella Park.
- I will try to visualize these quarters as well, bit later. --DenisYurkin 13:49, 21 October 2007 (EDT)
- I've just updated the map--split Ciutat Vella into quarters; it can be seen at the same address at Google Maps. --DenisYurkin 15:49, 10 November 2007 (EST)
- 2- Eixample: The modern Barcelona was born here. District planned by the urbanist Ildefons Cerdà. During the burstling XIX century, the walls of the city were tore down. As a result of the economic prosperity and following Cerda's design, the Eixample assembles a huge amount of modernist and deco buildings unrivalled anywhere else in Europe (some of the best known: La Sagrada Familia, La Pedrera (Casa Mila), Casa Batlló, Casa Lleó Morera).
- The district is north of Ciutat vella, limited (from left to right in the map) by: Avda Paral·lel, Carrer de Tarragona, Avda Josep Tarradellas, Avda Diagonal, Carrer de Corsega, Carrer de Dos de Maig, Avda Meridiana and the borders of Ciutat Vella again on the south.
- 3- Gracia: Independent village until 1897, narrow streets and tiny squares, before farmers and artisans, now a very young, left wing, full of artists and political activists. Always a couple of political meetings, an exhipbition, a concert and a street market going on at the same time. You can also find, in the north the famous Park Güell.
- Gracia is limited on the south by Avda Diagonal, and carrer de Corsega. In the east by Carrer Gran de Gracia, Carrer Republica Argentina and Avda de l'Hospital Militar and on the west by Carrer Sardenya.
- Hope this is helpful, I'll be adding the rest of the neighbourhoods if you think it's helpful. Regards. --Oriolbcn
- Thanks for great work, Oriolbcn! --DenisYurkin 15:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)
The official district borders can be found here (official Barcelona City Hall Website): http://www.bcn.es/guia/welcomea.htm
Other than that, the barrio found north of Via Laietana is called "La Ribera", not "La Rivera". La Ribera is itself split into El Born (east of Calle Princesa, down to Barceloneta) and Sant Pere (west of Calle Princesa, up to Calle Trafalgar).Jullag 13:48, 18 December 2007 (EST)
Hi everybody. I think it is easy to solve that one... districts in Barcelona are an official administrative division set by the City Council.
It is as easy as going to the City COuncil web site, and look for the Barcelona Map... it draws the limits of District... The address is Barcelona City Council. This is the English version... I'm afraid I cannot reproduce it here, according to what Wikitravel says about images (at least I won't take the time to verify wether I ca reproduce it or not), but hope it's Ok to give the link...
Hope it helps ! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fgranados (talk • contribs)
I've tried to visualize these borders at Google Maps, here's the result. Does it look like what Oriolbcn meant?
- Update: (28.11.2007) As Google Maps allows to collaborate on user maps, I can share it for further edits--just leave your email address at gmail here.
De-coding guides by Oriolbcn gave me some questions, however:
- does it include Placa de Catalunya?
- does it include Plaça Universitat?
- which part of the seaside area is included? Moll de Ponent? Moll 18A/Moll18C? Passeig Escullera? Maremagnum? Marina Village? Moda Shopping Port Olympic? All of them?
Gracia is missing northern border--where it should be?
Overall, if you find any mistakes in showing Oriolbcn instructions on the map -- please let me know.
--DenisYurkin 16:41, 15 October 2007 (EDT)
- Hey there, regarding your questions:
- Ciutat Vella:
- Plaça Catalunya is not included (only the southern border of the square)
- Plaça Universitat is also not included (only the southern border of the square)
- Seaside area: all is ciutat vella except Port Olimpic.
- The northern border is more or less where you drew it. The city up there is a little bit unclear to me...
- The rest is perfect. --Oriolbcn 23:14, 3 december 2007
- I've just updated the map to reflect these changes. Anything else needs to be changed?
- And what about borders of Barceloneta? See the paragraph below. --DenisYurkin 13:43, 4 December 2007 (EST)
Where exactly is the border of La Barceloneta? Where is it on northern-west? And for seaside area, same questions as for Ciutat Vella as a whole: which of these should be included: Moll de Ponent, Moll 18A/Moll18C, Passeig Escullera, Maremagnum, Marina Village, Moda Shopping Port Olympic, all of them? --DenisYurkin 13:49, 21 October 2007 (EDT)
Recently I've found a reference to official division at Wikipedia:
- > The current division of the city in different districts was approved in 1984.
Any idea how we can find the document mentioned, and use its borders at Wikitravel? --DenisYurkin 13:51, 4 December 2007 (EST)
A second attempt gave me detailed scheme of official borders for each district: under the above link, click any given disctrict and then click "El territoris i els barris" on the left-hand navigation menu. Here are the maps for the districts we already have:
From there, you can find borders of specific sub-districts like Raval or Gothic Quarter
If we save detailed description of each district's borders, it seems like a most natural way to follow. And I think it's a good idea to merge back Barceloneta back into Ciutat Vella, at least with amount of content we have so far. --DenisYurkin 16:09, 11 January 2008 (EST)
- I think the safest bet about official borders is to use the map in the Official Barcelona webpage: http://www.bcn.cat/guia/welcomea.htm --22.214.171.124 16:48, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
- Whoa, that's useful! --Peter Talk 23:14, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
- Thanks for sharing the link. So do you think that official borders are good for an average traveler for better understanding the city structure, and for us to split Barcelona article into district sub-articles? --DenisYurkin 20:33, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
OK, I've invited many Wikitravelers for the following proposal on district borders for Barcelona.
- We use official set of districts and their official borders, as defined by maps in  (for individual district selected, its map is under 'El territori i els barris' link in the left-hand navigation). Specifically, for existing district articles we follow these maps: Ciutat Vella , l'Eixample , Gràcia: 
- We agree to create district articles for any of the first-level districts listed there, once we have any content for it.
- We agree not to split Ciutat Vella article or other district articles into subdistrict articles until we have too much content for a single article (as defined by consensus). However, we can group listings within Ciutat Vella article by the subdistricts as defined by the above official maps of subdistricts.
- We merge back Barceloneta article into Ciutat Vella.
- For reference purposes, we save text description of street-by-street detailed borders for each district, on top of this page--Talk:Barcelona.
Any comments/criticism/suggestions are all highly welcome. After 2 weeks from now I will plunge forward to implement the above changes, if no comments follow. Any help with these efforts will be absolutely appreciated. --DenisYurkin 16:51, 11 January 2008 (EST)
- I would like to restart the work on districtifying Barcelona. How about first create new articles for Sants-Montjuïc and Sant Martí, merge Barceloneta into Ciutat Vella, and create an Inland Suburbs article for the remaining districts, which we will have little content for?, --ClausHansen 16:26, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
- Thanks for the great work! Don't mind if we celebrate it in a common room? :-)
- BTW, have you considered to update My Maps in Google Maps to clearly define borders of districts? Having such a map is really helpful in deciding which district any new particular address should be sticked to. I am ready to share the map for editing with you, just need your email address to send invitation to. --DenisYurkin 16:14, 13 May 2011 (EDT)
- Please selebrate all you can! But I do not know how to update the google map, --ClausHansen 19:17, 13 May 2011 (EDT)
street-by-street description of borders
(as defined by the official district borders)
- Av. del Paral·lel
- Ronda de Sant Pau
- Ronda de Sant Antoni
- (Plaça Universitat not included)
- Carrer Pelai
- Carrer de Trafalgar
- Carrer de Roger de Flor
- Pg. de Pujades
- Carrer de Wellington
- Av. del Paral·lel
- Carrer de Tarragona
- Avda Josep Tarradellas
- (square not included)
- Avda Diagonal
- Carrer de Corsega
- Pg. de Sant Joan
- C/del Rossello
- C/de Sant Antoni ?Maria Clanet
- C/del Dos de Maig
- (Placa de les Glories not included)
- Av. Meridiana
- Plaça Catalunya (included)
- Plaça Universitat (included)
- Ronda de Sant Antoni
- Ronda de Sant Pau
I am removing Suzet as it has been closed for a few years now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kevindowd (talk • contribs)
- Thanks for explanation. In future, when you remove something please provide your reasons for removal in "Summary:" text field--right above the "Save page" button. --DenisYurkin 18:55, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
New Year Day
What will be the best place to meet the New Year Day in Barcelona? Say a place with good food, live music, open at midnight 31 Dec/1Jan and with the price tag below 100euros per person? Alex Bakharev 00:13, 19 December 2008 (EST)
- As the traveler comes first here, I've seen many advices like this requested and received at TripAdvisor. If you find little help there, consider simply walking around the restaurants recommended in Wikitravel and asking for their schedule for the NY night and relevant special offers. Start asking the day you arrive, so you have some advance to find several options to choose from, and still some seats left to be booked.
- And please consider starting an article like New Year holidays in Hungary when you're back--share whatever experience you gain. If you need help, try asking me. --DenisYurkin 16:54, 20 December 2008 (EST)
This article is seriously lacking a map, anyone who had never visited Barcelona would have no clue as to where all the fantastic attractions are.HJ.Phillips94 13:18, 24 February 2009 (EST)
right place for [genuine] sangria
What Eat/Drink places can be recommended to taste a real, genuine sangria? I heard many times that in most bars, sangria is far from good--but was not lucky to find a right place for gaving sangria in the city. Any advice? --DenisYurkin 14:06, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
Following two recent edits by Jpatokal (, ), I implemented a first cut for my idea from CoTM:
- create an article-local blacklist of apartment agencies--those who repeatedly add themselves. It can be created as a subpage of Talk:Barcelona, and easily derived from history of reverts in Barcelona. It will make easier to prune frequently re-added agencies that violates our policy.
For now, I only added the agencies that should not be listed in the district articles as they rent apartments in multiple districts.
Welcome to add more agencies, as it will help to revert repeated additions of the same agencies.
I am not sure whether the page name chosen complies well with our naming policies--please rename if you feel like it. --DenisYurkin 12:40, 25 August 2009 (EDT)
- Oops, I forgot to provide a link: Wikitravel:Barcelona/Apartments blacklist. --DenisYurkin 18:29, 20 November 2009 (EST)
- Update: it moved here: Wikitravel talk:Local spam blacklist#Barcelona_ Apartments blacklist. --DenisYurkin 16:41, 17 August 2010 (EDT)
I've become a bit upset after reading the "Talk" section. I think that the statement "Around 30% of local people consider that Catalonia is a nation" is completely wrong! I'll just give you two facts:
- The 1979 Catalan Constitution said in his first article "Catalonia is a nationality" and it was supported by the 88,15% of Catalan citizens in a referendum.
- The 2005 Catalan statute proposal said in his first article "Catalonia is a nation" and it was supported by the 88% from the members of the Catalan Parliament.
In fact, only two small parties (PPC and Cs) are against this statement. It's a very common impression in Barcelona.
There is no point in listing apartments in the main Barcelona article.
- There are too many to avoid arriving at our non-goal of making a yellow pages.
- Since they are only agencies, we will not be able to incorporate information from travellers - they will be forever just having ads.
- The information in the current listing doesn't actually give any information about the accommodation, there is no basis for the traveller to choose.
- Arguably they already clash with our external links policy. They don't list any specific accommodation a traveller can actually stay in.
--inas 19:46, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
- This seems fair for this particular article (and maybe Madrid and a few others, too) which seems to be a magnet for spammy listings. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:55, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
- I haven't looked into it carefully, but the apt agencies have been active in adding these spammy listings across multiple language versions. I've been tempted to nuke them for a while. --Peter Talk 23:22, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
- Looks like the same should be applied to Rome and Budapest, naming from the articles I have in my watchlist. Pitifully, as I personally experienced a decent agency in Rome (fitting into our criteria) with which I rented an apartment I really fell in love with. But I can't propose a good way for sticking that info in Wikitravel (except having a separate article for each hotel etc, which idea alone was far from consensus last time we discussed it -- or finding a way to describe individual apartments which didn't find any support so far). --DenisYurkin 18:20, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
- ::Hello, I add again whotells apartments. They are directe apartment hoteliers, is NOT an agency looking for and extra comission, and in my experience, every time I go to Barcelona I sleep in whotells, because are nice flats well designed and furnished by MUJI.
Airport Connection - normal bus?
Isn't there also a normal bus (46?) that connects the airport with the city? That info is missing.
- If you are sure that there is, please just add the information to the article.--Burmesedays 03:29, 12 February 2010 (EST)
Clarify how busy August is
The article currently says that August is the busiest time of year in Barcelona, and also says that it really quiet because everyone has left for vacation. I'd appreciate clarification. In what sense is it particularly busy in August (a lot of European tourists?), and in what sense is it quiet?
I thought it could have been a good idea to copy the following map from Wikimedia, but I cannot find out how to do it. Maybe someone else knowsw how to do it??
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/MapaBCN_Distritos01.jpg --Oddeivind 10:45, 12 May 2011 (EDT)
- I am working on a map, --ClausHansen 12:39, 13 May 2011 (EDT)
- Done, --ClausHansen 14:36, 13 May 2011 (EDT)
Walking tours and individual listings
I've seen recently some conflicts between members in the Walking Tours section on the page . Here is a policy page that will help us decide which tour listings we should keep and which we will have to delete. The policy says Tours can be listed on Wikitravel as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfil the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed!. Having that in mind, I would suggest that we only keep 360 Running Barcelona listing as it offers something unique. User:TonyB and User: BarcelonaExpert, what do you think?
Also, restaurant and hotel listings should be moved to city districts. I don't know Barcelona that well to know on which pages should I put individual listings. Any help? Thanks a lo! Warm regards, IBAlex (talk) 16:12, 13 May 2013 (EDT)
- Hi Alex, it's great to speak with you again! Thanks for opening a discussion about this. As you know, I've been working on this article for some time now and made several improvements and added a lot of new and original content to it. So when I saw that TonyB -- a new user -- suddenly signed up and removed a significant amount of content from the article, I did not think that was prudent nor appropriate without a proper discussion, so I undid his change. That's why I'm glad to see you are opening this up for discussion now.
- To be clear, what TonyB removed wasn't just the Walking Tours, it was every single "commercial" listing in the article. So I don't know if we are just discussing the Walking Tours here, or all the "commercial" listings that TonyB had removed, but since you specifically mentioned the Walking Tours, I'll focus my discussion on that (let me know if you would like to discuss the other listings TonyB had removed as well).
- With regards to the Walking Tours, although I am a native of Barcelona, I was curious enough about these "tours" to go on a few of them (they're free after all) to see if they really do add any value to this beautiful city of mine or are just a "tourist trap" with superficial information you can get from any guide book. To my surprise, the Walking Tours I took that were listed in this article were quite substantive, specialized, detailed, and professional, and I actually learned quite a bit that I did not know about before. So I would imagine that if I -- as a native -- learned quite a bit on these tours, it would be incredibly difficult for a tourist or visitor to "fulfil the substance of the tour on their own". The main reason for this, I feel, is due to the specialization of the tours (at least the ones I took). These weren't generic tours about Barcelona in general, these were highly-focused tours about specific areas / history of Barcelona. For example, I took Runner Bean Tour's tour specifically about Gaudí's architecture, and although almost every Barcelona native knows the basics about Gaudí, I learned quite a bit of historical context surrounding his architecture and motivations as we visited each of his major accomplishments around the city. I also took Orange Donut Tour's tour of the historic Gothic Quarter of Barcelona, and felt like I was taking a fun history class and was pleasantly surprised to learn about legends tied to some of Barcelona's oldest buildings that I had never heard of before even though I've walked past them literally hundreds of times (to be sure the tour wasn't making this up, I actually researched the legends after the tour and they were all true). If I had never heard of those legends and historical anecdotes after decades of living in Barcelona and learning its history in school, then I don't see how a visitor would be able to do or learn that on their own from just walking around the Gothic Quarter as they would get lost before they even had a chance to consider what they were looking at, let alone legends, anecdotes, and historical events that aren't written anywhere on the streets or in any guide book I have seen. Last but not least, I also took the Picasso tour offered by Discover Walks, and was also surprised at the level of specific details and historical context regarding Picasso and his roots in the city that I never knew about before despite Picasso's status as a world-renowned and famous 20th century artist. So as you can imagine, the sheer amount of specific details these tours offer would fill pages and pages of information if it were all to be listed on WikiTravel, so I think they certainly supplement this article quite well (as they should if they are to be listed). In other words, these aren't generic sight-seeing tours, they actually add value beyond what any guide book or map can provide, and I've even recommended them to some of my local friends here as a fun way to learn things they've never known about the city they've been living in for so many years.
- So, based on my experience, I would be even more strict than the WikiTravel criteria and the "litmus test" I would recommend to help determine which tours to keep and which to remove are the ones that not only meet the WikiTravel criteria you linked to, but that also meet all of the following additional criteria:
- 1) They offer a tour specializing in a specific area of Barcelona, not a general tour that just takes you around the city for some generic sight-seeing.
- 2) They are independent and not a European-wide organization, so you know they are run by locals and specialize only in Barcelona.
- 3) They actually have a listing with positive reviews on TripAdvisor to ensure they are established and not a fly-by-night tour.
- 4) They focus only on providing tours, with no other side-businesses, so you know the tours aren't just being used to upsell other services.
- Based on the strict criteria above, together with the WikiTravel criteria, and my own personal experience, the tours that should remain are "Orange Donut Tours", "Runner Bean Tours", and "360 Running Barcelona". However, "Discover Walks", despite their great Picasso tour, is a European-wide tour operator operating in several countries, so I don't think they are a natural fit for the Barcelona article, "Barcelona Walk and See" has no reviews on TripAdvisor so they do not seem to be very established, and "Travel Bound" is a bar that just offers tours on the side, so I would recommend removing those 3.
- That would leave the section with just 3 high-quality Tours that offer visitors a unique and compelling experience that they would not be able to do on their own substantially or even superficially, and thus not only meet but exceed the WikiTravel criteria, while providing visitors helpful recommendations about tours they should consider without overwhelming them with too many options. I think that would be a win-win offering the best of both worlds.
- So that's my "local" input on the matter and I hope it helps. If you would like a similar analysis on the other listings TonyB had removed, I would be more than happy to provide it.
- P.S. By the way, I saw the new images you added recently to the article and they look great! :) BarcelonaExpert (talk) 20:05, 13 May 2013 (EDT)
- I agree with (1) and (2).
- I disagree with (3) because Trip Advisor essentially runs its business on a blackmail model and offers no safeguards against competitors anonymously doing a hatchet job on their competition or (fraudulently) boosting their own business with multiple fake reviews. It's for these reasons (and others) that our policy hasbeen never to mention it in WT pages.
- I disagree with (4) because it would preclude (for example) the European Commission organising a cultural tour.
- I suggest that you exercise your own judgement and stick back the worthwhile tours. Plunge forward, BarcelonaExpert! --W. Franke-mailtalk 13:25, 14 May 2013 (EDT)
- Hi W. Frank, thanks for you thoughts on this, I really appreciate it! Regarding (3), it doesn't have to be TripAdvisor, but I still think it would be a good idea to have some kind of way to objectively verify whether a tour is established just to ensure the safety of Wikitravellers. Anyone can say they run a "tour" in any city, so I think it's important to distinguish between which ones are legitimate vs. those that are not. Although TripAdvisor certainly tends to have the shortcomings you mentioned, I've found it quite accurate for the purposes of distinguishing tours and other businesses that are established (e.g. have several positive reviews) vs. those that are not (e.g. no listing, no reviews, or poor reviews). I'm sure there are better sites out there for that, but I'm only familiar with TripAdvisor.
- Regarding (4), I wouldn't consider the European Commission as a business, nor anything that they do as "upselling", as they're a government organization, so they wouldn't be precluded in my book. To make it clearer, we could easily amend (4) to specifically exempt government organizations. That said, I still think it's important to only list tours that do not upsell other side-businesses in order to avoid "tourist traps" that attract people via free tours only to sell them a product or service in the end. Those are disingenuous and a disservice to our readers. The only way you can be absolutely sure that a tour is a genuine tour is if that's the only thing they do.
- As you can imagine, I'm trying to be quite strict with the criteria in order to not only reduce and limit the number of listings, but also ensure only high-quality listings make the grade so that WikiTravellers don't have to sift through dirt to find gold.
- At any rate, thanks for your suggestion to plunge forward, although with this particular matter, I would like to leave the decision up to the Admins as they opened this up for discussion. BarcelonaExpert (talk) 18:34, 14 May 2013 (EDT)
- Thank you for participating in this discussion! Based on what was said, I left "Orange Donut Tours", "Runner Bean Tours", and "360 Running Barcelona" . BarcelonaExpert, please keep an eye on the site and walking tour agencies :) Thank you! Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 20:44, 30 May 2013 (EDT)
- Hi Alex, thanks for agreeing with the discussion above and for implementing the recommended changes. As always, it was a pleasure to assist you with this matter, and I will certainly continue to keep an eye on the Barcelona page as a whole while keeping a particularly close eye on the Walking Tours section as requested so that it always meets our strict criteria outlined above. Cheers! :) BarcelonaExpert (talk) 11:57, 31 May 2013 (EDT)
- BarcelonaExpert, we are so happy to have you here :) IBAlex (talk) 18:10, 31 May 2013 (EDT)
Hello, I would like to add the Discover Walks Barcelona listing to Barcelona walking tour page. Reading this discussion I understand your concern of having quality tour and it seems we've been ejected for being "european-wide" as you want to assure tours run by local, I understand that however, the whole concept of our company is to have Native guide (of the city itself) showing people around. That is what we do in Paris, Prague and Barcelona. You can of course check our website for more informations on this. The manager of the business there is Catalan, and the 7 guides working for this company are all Catalàn as well (Born and raised in Barcelona) which if is for us one of the most meaningful part of our tours.
Therefore, having Discover Walks Barcelona erased from this list doesn't seem fair. Would it be possible to re-consider our case? Thanks for you understanding.
- Hello! Thank you for your message! Tours can be listed on Wikitravel as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed. In practice this policy disallows listings for most audio tours, walking tours, and guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller, and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikitravel article . I personally believe that adding another tour to our list would not benefit the Traveler. We have carefully chosen those 3 Tours that are listed on Barcelona page as we believe that they offer something more than just a regular tour. I hope this answers your question. Warm regards, IBAlex (talk) 12:53, 14 June 2013 (EDT)
- I agree with and support IBAlex's reasoning and decision on this matter. We don't want to have too many Walking Tours listed as it will ultimately overwhelm the Traveler and become counter-productive. Quality is more important than quantity here. The idea is not to provide travelers with every single available option, but rather to curate what's out there and offer them only high-quality listings that offer something substantively different. Unfortunately, that means some listings will inevitably be left out. In fact, I think we need to do a similar "clean up" of the "By bike" section as well, as there are currently too many listings there. What do you think, IBAlex? BarcelonaExpert (talk) 21:44, 14 June 2013 (EDT)
- Thank you for your answer. I understand your position, now may I say that we used to be listed in this article since May 20th 2012 and that it actually helped users finding the activity they wanted to do in Barcelona, therefore it did benefit independant travellers. Then, on the added-value part of our activity, as I explained above, the concept of our tours is to see Barcelona with a Native, a real born and raised Barcelonese that will show people around, and explain what is living Barcelona on a day-to-day basis. It's about sharing the best stories on the main landmarks and sharing personnal anecdotes that only a native could possibly know. That's what we offer as an added-value and in addition to that a kind of "subjective" information that couldn't be included in a factual article such as this one. That is why we respect the Wikitravel guidelines and that I really believe we did not deserve to be erased from this article in the first place. Do you think you can put us back in? Should I take care of it? Thanks for your understanding. Regards.
- Thanks for your response. To clarify, your listing was not the only walking tour removed by the Admins after a consensus was reached by the community, several other tours were also removed from that section as well. So this wasn't something done specifically against your European tour company, it was simply a general "clean up" of that section that was done with the consensus of the WikiTravel community through open discussions that everyone was free to participate in. Furthermore, having been listed previously on WikiTravel is not a guarantee that you will be listed forever, nor does it grant you any special rights or privileges. IBAlex is the Admin who originally removed your listing, and she has already specifically stated to you above that your listing should not be added back, a view I also happen to share with her since it does not meet the strict guidelines determined by the community for inclusion. Therefore, I kindly ask you to please not add your listing back as a consensus has already been reached to remove it (along with the other listings that were also removed) in order to leave the section as it is now. Please understand that a community consensus carries a lot more weight than the desires of a single business owner to have their company added, particularly when the views of the community are also shared by the Admin team. I understand that this may not seem fair to you, but please keep in mind that WikiTravel is not a directory for listing every single business in every city, so some will inevitably be left out, as I already mentioned to you above. I suspect we will be having a similar discussion regarding the "By bike" section soon, and you will of course be free to participate in those discussions to help reach a community consensus regarding that particular section. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation. BarcelonaExpert (talk) 09:42, 17 June 2013 (EDT)
- Thanks for taking the time the respond. I understand there is a consensus needed which is pretty clear:
- 1) They offer a tour specializing in a specific area of Barcelona, not a general tour that just takes you around the city for some generic sight-seeing. (This is what we do with our Gaudi tour or Ramblas & Barri Gotic tour)
- 2) They are independent and not a European-wide organization, so you know they are run by locals and specialize only in Barcelona. (Discover Walks Barcelona is run by locals, born and raised in Barcelona that's our core business)
- 3) They actually have a listing with positive reviews on TripAdvisor to ensure they are established and not a fly-by-night tour. (please check our trip advisor listing)
- 4) They focus only on providing tours, with no other side-businesses, so you know the tours aren't just being used to upsell other services. (please check on our website)
- We actually validate all the points of your consensus is there any other reason why we coulnd't be on this page? Thanks for your answer. Regards.
- Actually, you do not meet criteria 2) no matter how you stretch it. You are an International organization, as evidenced by the fact that your homepage lists walking tours in San Francisco, Paris, Rome, Prague, London, Lisbon, and St. Petersburg, your company was started in Paris, France, and your domain name and parent corporation are registered in California, USA. In fact, the only connection your company has to Barcelona is that it also happens to offer tours in this city (1 of 8), but there are numerous other tours offered in this city by several different businesses as well, and not all of them can be listed, as already mentioned to you. Again, that doesn't mean those tours aren't good, just that they don't meet our strict criteria for inclusion. Furthermore, I don't believe it is proper protocol to have this detailed and lengthy discussion after a consensus has already been reached and an Admin decision made, but I wanted to at least give you the courtesy of showing you that the decision was not taken lightly by the community or the Admin team and that careful thought and analysis were undertaken before reaching one. I must re-iterate that the community consensus and Admins have already decided that your international tour company should not be listed on the Barcelona page -- despite the fact that you happen to offer Barcelona tours -- because you do not meet all the criteria above and it would not ultimately benefit the Traveler. Moreover, I don't think any discussions here now are going to change that decision as that decision was already given careful consideration, and reversing that decision now solely at the behest of the business owner would not reflect well on the independent, non-commercial, and community-oriented spirit of WikiTravel. Therefore, I kindly ask that you refrain from insisting on including your business. That said, I hope you are open and willing to contribute to the Barcelona page with the same passion displayed here but in ways other than just wanting to list your business, and look forward to your future contributions to the page. BarcelonaExpert (talk) 15:59, 17 June 2013 (EDT)
- Thanks for your answer. I understand and I'm not trying to change your decision any longer. However I must say that you created criteria n°2 for a purpose : make sure tours are run by locals and specialized in Barcelona, no matter how you strech it I'm here you show you that there is absolutely no link between being european-wise and not having quality tours by local. In fact, your criteria is leading you to keep in your listing companies that are not using local guides so you end-up being wrong as to your original purpose of taking care of the Travelers. As long as you're not willing to at least consider that your consensus is not that carrefully though and analysed in the full benefit of the traveler there is nothing more I can say. Sorry I took so much of your time, thanks for your answers.
- Thank you BarcelonaExpert for taking time to explain the decision that was made by the community. I agree with every word you wrote here! All the tour listings we have on Barcelona page now were carefully chosen. Carlos, thank you for your understanding and sorry that you cannot put your listing here. No hard feelings, we wish you all the best with your business! Feel free to contribute to Barcelona page with other content than just tour listings.
I have been trying to include my business as an option for travellers on this page but with no luck. After a bit of investigation I have discovered a tout that, not only has been trying to promote her own business, but has also managed to eliminate her competitors from the page. All this has been done very shrewdly. It is about the section on walking tours.
BarcelonaExpert has been a member (and contributor) only since 7th of March 2013. This person is the owner of Orange Donut Tours, a company that organises walking tours in the city. Here it is how I found out:
On the same day that she became a member, she added 7 changes to the page, including promoting her own company [18:52, 7 March 2013 -. →Do: Added info, clarified festivals, fixed spelling mistakes]. If you look at Orange donut Tours Facebook profile you can see very clearly “launched on 28th of February 2013”. How did somebody (Josep from Barcelona, apparently) found this company only a week after they launched and why she decided to include it in Wikitravel with no reference whatsoever? Funnily, the only commercial link that BarcelonaExpert has added after many contributions is this company.
Two months later (13th May), this same person works very actively on the talk section and gives a long account of her experiences with three companies listed (the more detailed one, obviously, being her own company’s). She manages to erase 4 of her competitors with the approval of other members that she has managed to convince. Her description of how she went to 3 different tours just to check them out is, at least, laughable.
I know that this person is going to answer here explaining that everything is false with big words and she is going to say that she is a big contributor (who wouldn’t when you can use it as a marketing strategy with such wonderful results?) but don’t be fooled. IBAlex, please check the facts and make your own conclusions. I think that someone had been fooling with you (and all Wikitravel users) here. —The preceding comment was added by Filby33 (talk • contribs)
- Continuation of this discussion is here. Thanks! IBAlex (talk) 19:12, 13 September 2013 (EDT)
BarcelonaExpert, which entries for bikes would you suggest to keep? Are you familiar with some of those companies? Warm regards, IBAlex (talk) 13:33, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
- Hi Alex, I'll do a detailed analysis of the Bike tours using the exact same criteria we determined for the Walking tours and will post the results here in a few days so we can take it from there. Cheers! BarcelonaExpert (talk) 07:32, 19 June 2013 (EDT)
- BarcelonaExpert, you are the best! :) Thank you for your help! Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 13:59, 19 June 2013 (EDT)
- Hi Alex, I've completed my detailed analysis of the Bike Tours section to determine which listings to keep. Based on the strict criteria we previously determined in the Walking Tours discussion above, together with the WikiTravel criteria, the listings that meet all the aforementioned criteria and should therefore remain are: "Biking in Barcelona", "Bornbike Rental & Tours", "Budget Bikes", "Deviant Bikes", "e-bikerent", and "Terra Diversions". Of those, the only one that does not have several reviews on TripAdvisor is "Biking in Barcelona", which would suggest they are not very established. However, they are actually run by the "Biciclot" Bicycle Cooperative of the city dating back to 1986, so they are actually quite established. Also, "Deviant Bikes" only offers Bikes for rent, and not any Tours, so I'm not sure if it belongs in that section or not since the section mainly lists bike tours but is actually titled "By bike" (if the title of the section is going to be left as "By bike", then they should probably remain since they still allow visitors to get around Barcelona by bike). Finally, the link to the website of "Terra Diversions" should be fixed to link directly to the English version rather than the default Spanish version currently linked to.
- Regarding the listings that do not meet all of the criteria previously determined and that should therefore be removed: "Baja Bikes" is an international company offering bike tours all over the world, so they do not meet Criteria 2). "Barceloneta Bikes" has no reviews on TripAdvisor and does not seem to be very established, so it does not meet Criteria 3), and their website is not in English. "Barcelone à vélo" only has 5 reviews on TripAdvisor with only one review in the last 6 months, so they do not seem to be very established and therefore do not meet Criteria 3), and their website is also not in English. "BCN Travel Bicycle Rental & Tours" are a generic travel website that happen to have a page about bike tours where they just list third-party bike tours, and therefore do no meet Criteria 4). "Bicimetrobike" only has one review on TripAdvisor, so they don't seem to be very established and therefore do not meet Criteria 3). "Bicing" is actually a public transport bicycle program for Residents of Barcelona only, so it does not apply to visitors and should therefore not be listed on WikiTravel. "Fat Tire Bike Tours" is a European-wide company with tours in Paris, Berlin, and London, so they do not meet Criteria 2). "Mattia46 bikes & motos hire" only has one review on TripAdvisor, so they don't seem to be very established and therefore do not meet Criteria 3).
- I hope this helps! Cheers! BarcelonaExpert (talk) 10:27, 23 June 2013 (EDT)
- Good job, Barcelona Expert! Thank you for all your time that you spent doing the research! Based on your suggestions I have eliminated the majority of listings that don't meet the criteria mentioned above. However, I kept 1 of them (Bicimetrobike) as we usually refrain from mentions to 3rd party rankings such as TripAdvisor. So if there was no reviews for those companies, it's still ok with us :) I have checked the company's website and I believe that keeping the listing will benefit the Traveler. Please let me know if this is fine with you. I have also fixed the link for Terra Diversions. Thank you for noticing that! BarcelonaExpert, I must tell you that i love our Barcelona page! Thank you! Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 14:06, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
- Hi Alex, thanks for looking into this and making the appropriate edits! I love our Barcelona page as well! Regarding "Bicimetrobike", another reason I had suggested removing them is because they were added only recently (in April 2013) by the business owners themselves, which I had to clean up on 2 separate occasions (here and here), but the 3rd time they added it slipped past my radar. Their only contributions to WikiTravel were the addition of their commercial link, which is against WT's own policies on External Links ("But in line with Wikipedia policies, you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent"). In addition, they also violated WT's guidelines on "Touting" by using superlatives such as "perfect" in their description. So it was also due to the above that I had originally removed them back in April, and why I was recommending their removal again now. On top of that, I've never personally heard about them here in Barcelona, so they don't seem to be very well known, and their site uses Google's automated translation service for their English version, which isn't very professional. All of that said, you have a lot more experience than me deciding what is best for the Traveler, so it is better if you make the final decision. I just wanted to give you the full picture to aid your final decision. I hope this helps and thanks again for making the edits! Cheers! BarcelonaExpert (talk) 15:33, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
- Barcelona Expert, your arguments make total sense and you have convinced me...well, you are the one that's an expert here :) I'm taking "Bicimetrobike" off. Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 17:51, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
- Sounds good, Alex! Thanks again for taking the time to read through and process everything, I know there was a lot of info to digest and edit regarding all the Bike tours! I'll keep a close eye on the Bike tours section on top of the Walking tours section to make sure both continue to meet our strict, high-quality criteria for the benefit of all Travelers. Cheers! BarcelonaExpert (talk) 18:14, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
- Thanks a lot! Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 18:15, 9 July 2013 (EDT)