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User talk:Pbsouthwood

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Hello, Pbsouthwood! Welcome to Wikitravel.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.Texugo 05:06, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

Copyrighted material? Too much general info?[edit]

Hi there. I have a couple of comments for you...

First, given the amazing speed and thorough coverage with which you are adding text to Guide to diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay and Dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay, I am getting a little concerned that you might be copying the text from a book or other copyrighted source. While admittedly, Google searches of the text have yielded nothing at this point, I know it is damn near impossible to add 16000 characters of such well-written text in an hour unless that text has already been written in advance. I wonder if you would be willing to comment about where all this is coming from?

Second, these two articles contain a great deal of information which is applicable to diving as a whole-- info about equipment, technique, etc. That stuff should be pulled out of these articles and merged with the Scuba diving article. We like to avoid duplication around here whenever possible. Texugo 05:06, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

Hi Texugo, I am in fact cutting and pasting from my own unpublished work, so there are no copyright issues. The total text is probably about 300 pages, but I haven't counted recently and could be out by a large margin. I originally intended to publish in hard copy, but recently decided that if I did that I would never be ready to print, as there is still so much to do, so this allows it to be useful while unfinished, and as I probably wouldn't even cover printing costs by sales, probably cheaper too. This is the work of several years surveying, mapping and collecting data over about a thousand dives, and to finish it properly would probably take a few more years. My friends and aquaintances keep bugging me to publish, so this is my response.
I dont know if this answers all the points in your first question, If not ask again in more detail.
Your second point about duplication of information in the Scuba Diving article. I have not read the article, and will do so to see if I can work out which information you are referring to. My reasons for including what I have is that these hints relate specifically to the region and local conditions, and are not actually generic except for a few generalisations like warning peole to take care and be responsible. If you could point out which specific items you feel are redundant, I will reconsider them.
Hope this answers your questions.
Pbsouthwood 09:33, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
Hey Peter, noticed you had your name on a number of publications about the area, we don't mean to be completely anal here, but copyright issues is immensely important to a site like ours - so it would indeed be greatly appreciated if you could respond over here: Talk:Dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay. Cheers --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:45, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

Hi Stefan, I am new to this game and not sure what you mean by having my name on a number of publications about the area. Could you explain? Pbsouthwood 09:33, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

Perhaps one of you can advise me on a point of style/policy. I have a lot of information on several of the dive sites listed in Dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay, which I want to include in the overall guide, but am not sure wheter I should put them in as linked articles as implied by the current format of the main article, or include them in the main article. Each of the sites will eventually get a fairly comprehensive description of how to get there, how to identify the access points, local hazards, what to expect to see, the layout of the site and useful information for dive planning specific to that site. This would make the main article very long and perhaps too cumbersome. Separate articles would fragment the whole thing, but would allow the user to more easily navigate to the specific place of interest from the list of sites, without having to download the whole nine yards. Of course nothing is cast in stone, and whichever I eventually go for can always be converted to the other if that looks like it would work better, but those of you who have been doing this for more than a week may have some experience to pass on. Cheers, Peter Pbsouthwood 09:33, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

I was referring to the same thing as Texugo - unless it was written in advance there was no way to get information of this quality, and checking up on this, I ran into this page showing you already had published some stuff through that organisation, decreasing the chances of a copyright violation. Since you just confirmed that to be true, I don't think there are any issues on that front.
Very very nice to see so much high quality information added here - you could choose to build up your articles here, and publish it in a book though Wikitravel Press and get it on Amazon, with basically no cost for you other than the first books sold used to cover the expenses. I think you should give that some serious thought when you feel it's up to snuff - this would be an awesome application of this. Get in touch with User:Jpatokal for more information. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 10:23, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
...and even the cost of those first books is deducted from royalties, so you don't need to pay anything at all up front. Check out the website and let me know if you're interested. Jpatokal 11:17, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
It looks good, but lets get the files uploaded first! It goes so slowly... Sometimes I have to wait 3 or 4 minutes for a transfer.
Cheers, Peter
Pbsouthwood 14:15, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

"SNUBA" question[edit]

Since you seem to be very knowledgable about diving, I wonder if you could contribute to this discussion: Wikitravel:Votes_for_deletion#SNUBA. Pashley 11:17, 23 August 2009 (EDT)

Spam Filter[edit]

If the spam filter is blocking your edits please let us know the error message being returned so that we can fix the problem. After an edit is blocked you will get an error page that will show you the pattern that is causing the edit to be blocked. You may need to obfuscate it a bit to report the error - for example, if the pattern in question is "this_is_spam" you won't be able to use that pattern in any edit, so you can write "I am getting an error any time I try to use 'this underscore is underscore spam'" to let us know what the problem is. Reports can be made here or on Wikitravel talk:Local spam blacklist. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:29, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

Thanks Ryan, This morning it isnt happenning, so can't get the information you asked for, but it was even blocking blank edits, i.e. I was clicking on edit at the top of a page, doing nothing, and clicking save page, and it would be blocked, with the full text of the page in the second grey box. I got this result when I tried to report on the spam blacklist too, without mentioning the problem text as it appeared to be the whole page, any page. It didnt matter which machine I was logged in on either, though both are connected through the same router. Weird. Pbsouthwood 04:43, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
I blocked the pattern "cialis" yesterday morning due to drug spam, and it was pointed out that this blocked any edit to a page containing the word "specialise". That may have been the problem - sorry for the trouble. -- Ryan • (talk) • 09:57, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
That would have been the problem. Glad it has been sorted. Cheers, Pbsouthwood 02:03, 3 September 2009 (EDT)


Thanks for all the hard effort you are putting into both your own project, and now I see other diving related articles getting treatment as well - awesome! --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 08:08, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

It makes a change! Keeps my mind off the amount of image uploading that lies ahead. Cheers, Pbsouthwood 14:58, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

Moved discussion to the article talk page[edit]

I suspect you have noticed by now, but I moved the diving topic discussion from The Pub to the article talk page. I can see this being quite a long discussion (I guess it already is!). Cheers. --Burmesedays 06:26, 2 October 2009 (EDT)

Too true, I was busy editing a reply when it happened. Bit of a surprise when I saved and the new text was in a diffent discussion, and the discussion I expected to be in was gone. Fortunately I guessed what had happened, so no problem. Pbsouthwood 07:18, 2 October 2009 (EDT)

CC by-sa 3.0[edit]

Um, sorry, but you really should've raised this up for discussion before slapping CC by-sa 3.0 tags on your content. Long and short of it is, you don't have the right to unilaterally impose additional conditions on Wikitravel... and Wikitravel as a whole will be moving to CC 3.0 sooner or later anyway, so they're unnecessary. Jpatokal 00:44, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Jani's bluntness can sometimes comes across a bit too harsh, but to add a second view - while the work you've done is great, I'd agree that the CC-SA-3.0 tags are probably something that deserve wider discussion. As a collaborative guide the site needs a single license that everyone who contributes abides by, and currently that is CC-SA-1.0. While stating that any contribution which you make is also available as CC-SA-3.0 is fine (and many people do this via a note on their user page), tagging the entire article (which others may contribute to) raises potential problems with authors who want to follow sitewide licensing that may now differ for specific articles.
A good workaround for now might be to note on your user page that all contributions you make are also released under the CC-SA-3.0 (as you have) and potentially also copy this notice onto the talk pages of the articles in question, but to leave the main articles without additional license info. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:46, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

No offence taken. My decision to do this unilaterally was prompted by the realisation that it might save trouble later on articles that are at this stage compliant by way of being new or the product of only supporters of the move. The point is that while they are still in this state it would be easy to keep them that way by the note. As soon as something is added it might cause a problem later. To remove the tags is relatively easy compared to chasing down the contributors. So it appeared to me that this was the prudent step, as it is easily reversible and could prevent later problems. Putting it up for discussion, though in the best traditions of Wikitravel, could cause long delays, during which time it is possible that some contributor might put in a lot of work (not likely I agree, but possible) which would later have to be deleted. Also, Plunging forward is another of the best traditions of Wikitravel, so I did. Since it is now done, it can be discussed safely. As this is a Wiki, if any potential contributor doesn't like the idea of CC-by-sa 3, they have the option of either not making the edit, which saves everyone time in the long run, or removing the tag themselves and making both the edit and the point that they are opposed to the licence. If anyone feels that their toes have been trampled, my apologies, that was not the intention (as explained), I just felt this might be worth doing in a rush. Unfortunately for my plans, it now has become contentious before I could finish, so I will have to stop until it has reached a consensus. It took a lot longer than expected, as I had to check each article that there was no content added by a third party that would be potentially copyrightable, and contact the contributor for permission in each case that there was. If there is consensus that it is undesirable, or someone can point out an accepted rule that has been contravened, I will remove them all. If there is consensus that it is harmless or desirable I will finish putting them in. Pbsouthwood 02:12, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

I'm not quite sure I understood that last bit there -- anything copyrighted by a third party and not released under CC would not be acceptable under any version of the license...? Jpatokal 09:09, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
I'm not sure which last bit you mean. If it was "as I had to check each article that there was no content added by a third party that would be potentially copyrightable, and contact the contributor for permission in each case that there was.", what I was trying to say is that only something that is potentially copyrightable could be an issue when the license is changed. Edits like correcting spelling mistakes and adding a link are inherently uncopyrightable and therefore could be ignored, but if someone was to add a paragraph describing the underwater landscape, or directions on how to get somewhere, they could argue that it is potentially copyrightable and if they don't like the license change it must be removed. Does this help to clarify? Pbsouthwood 09:52, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

With the site license now officially CC-SA 3.0, the license warnings on articles such as Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Dreadlocks Reef should no longer be necessary. I assume that the latest one is just a template thing? Otherwise it would be good to discuss your concerns to figure out if there's a way they can be addressed that allows the warnings to be removed. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:09, 30 January 2010 (EST)


Hi Peter, I wanted to thank you that you have an eye on the Phillies as well as there are many touts... I have no clue about the area as I have never been their, if you know better please merciless delete the touts. Best regards, jan 12:18, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

Hilversum Map[edit]

I just uploaded the new map, I made all the street names and icon numbers bold. Also fixed some other minor issues (like one hotel closed doors and some places changed their name and appearance). Globe-trotter 21:04, 1 November 2009 (EST)

Pinnacle Star Nomination[edit]

Hi Peter. Please see my comments here. Especially about the map. Cheers.--Burmesedays 08:54, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Ko Tao[edit]

Peter, please have a good look at the dive sections in the Ko Tao article. I have just done a massive de-touting of the dive shop/centre listings. I do not really understand why all those different sub-categories have been added though (PADI 5-Star Career Development Centers, Instructor Development Centres, etc etc). Your professional eye on this and the necessary editing would be great! If I have to read that meaningless guff "PADI Award Winning" ... one more time... :) --Burmesedays 02:33, 7 December 2009 (EST)

I have cut almost everything and put in links, and transferred it to Diving in Thailand#Ko Tao where it is potentially useful. I will prune the touting and both articles will be improved. You may wish to re-arrange the links. Cheers, -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 04:18, 7 December 2009 (EST)

That's a brave move and one which makes great sense to me. All those diveshop owners might not agree though....  :) --Burmesedays 04:44, 7 December 2009 (EST)

Actually the system of dive guides allows them scope for enticing customers by providing good site guides, so they can legitimately and acceptably publicise Ko Tao by providing good information for the travelling diver. As long as they can live with us cutting the bullshit, its a win-win situation. Keep alerting me when this sort of thing comes up, or if you like just cut and paste the raw text to a reasonably appropriate place in one of the dive guide articles and I will clean it up as I have most of them on my watchlist. Important to put in the links though. -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:27, 7 December 2009 (EST)

Ko Lanta[edit]

Another one like Ko Tao but on a smaller scale. I will try to sort out the hotels and restaurants and would be great if you could deal with the dive shops. --Burmesedays 23:51, 14 December 2009 (EST)


Long time, no hear Peter. I hope all is well with you. Please have a look at Dive sites of Saipan. This is the content of two articles that I crudely merged (the other was Dive sites of saipan!). It has been marked with a merge tag for quite a while. Possibly move all into Scuba Diving and link from Saipan?

Hi Burmesedays, nice to hear from you and thanks for the heads up on Diving in Saipan. I have done a bit of editing and it looks like it has potential to develop into a decent article. The quality of information is better than many of the WT dive site descriptions, and I will keep an eye on it.
I am up to my eyeballs in diver training at present, and will be for at least the rest of March, and prior to that was busy on some Wikipedia work supporting a colleague's project, and that is also only started, so will be back there a fair bit in future. I will also be back on the dive sites as and when I have more data, and will slowly continue to upgrade the existing sites and keep an eye on Scuba in general on WT. Peter (Southwood) Talk 14:57, 3 March 2010 (EST)

A completely unrelated matter: I have just put Nusa Lembongan (of giant sunfish fame) up for star. --Burmesedays 10:21, 10 February 2010 (EST)

Looks good to me. Another star for your Indonesian constellation? I have also commented on star nominations page. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) Talk 14:57, 3 March 2010 (EST)

Welcome back[edit]

Hi Peter - nice to see you back! I somewhat belatedly discovered your diving guides but have been very impressed by them. It's great to see that work continuing! -- Ryan • (talk) • 10:53, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

Hi Ryan, I have been quite busy recently with stuff that didnt relate directly to dive sites, but have now reached a stage where I hope to get a fair bit of mapping done again before the dread spectre of work raises its ugly head again.-- Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:35, 13 June 2010 (EDT)
Nice going on another star article! Apologies for not getting involved with the nomination process - it's an unfortunately time consuming process to review articles and provide useful feedback, and long stretches of free time have been at a premium lately. Despite the lack of personal participation, it's still nice to see nominations pass, so kudos to you for seeing it through. -- Ryan • (talk) •
Thanks Ryan, You are right about the time, but it is really useful to have feedback. As I don't do much other community work on WT I try at least to review star nominations and look after the dive articles, so I don't feel too bad about other users spending a bit of time on mine ;-) Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:11, 25 September 2010 (EDT)

Yaowarat and Pahurat Tour[edit]

Thanks for proofreading the Yaowarat and Pahurat Tour article! :) --globe-trotter 14:25, 16 August 2010 (EDT)

A pleasure, very nice article. Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:05, 25 September 2010 (EDT)

contributions to celebrate[edit]

Thanks, your improvement are very helpful! --DenisYurkin 04:04, 30 October 2010 (EDT)

Attribution of CC by sa 3.0 text from other sites[edit]

How do I get the attribution into the footer when I use text from another CC by sa 3.0 source? Peter (Southwood) Talk 03:18, 25 September 2010 (EDT)

barnstar :)[edit]


Please accept a barnstar as one of the many thank-yous you definitely deserve for pushing Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay to star status. Huge respect! --DenisYurkin 16:38, 29 November 2010 (EST)

Ditto from me. I've been hugely impressed with your dedication and patience and sincerely hope that the wider diving community finds your guides and puts them to good use as they are a truly exhaustive overview of the sites, conditions, and species found in that area. -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:37, 29 November 2010 (EST)
More exhaustimg than exhaustive unfortunately, but hey, it keeps me busy. Thanks Denis and Ryan, More appreciated than you expect I think. Not many of these around on Wikitravel. • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 00:07, 30 November 2010 (EST)

Khao San Road map[edit]

It seems like you have uploaded the old version of the SVG map of Khao San Road. Could you upload the new edited SVG? Thanks! --globe-trotter 07:07, 9 January 2011 (EST)

All good now! :) --globe-trotter 13:32, 10 January 2011 (EST)

standardise heading format[edit]

RE: [1] I intentionaly meant to start a sub-topic for an existing super-topic "Spare time any American?" started by Swissbelg. So OK if I revert your change? --DenisYurkin 16:43, 17 January 2011 (EST)

My apologies, I didnt realise it was intended as a subsection. I have reverted it. • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 17:15, 17 January 2011 (EST)


Hi Peter, currently we have a slight shortage of non-Japanese/Asian DotM. Therefore i significantly improved Frankfurt. It would be great if you have time that you could do some proof reading what is too much or still missing to be a DoTM. I start to like the article after some 100+ edits but that's maybe just me ;-) jan 10:48, 22 February 2011 (EST)

Hi Jan, I will try to find a gap over the next couple of days, as I may have a bit of spare time. I have no skills about what is needed for a DoTM, but will look it up. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:23, 22 February 2011 (EST)
Hi Peter, a strong guide article is usually required for DotM, so completeness, structure and formats are important. You asked what land-/airside means: Landside is before security and passport control and airside is after passport and security checks. In Airside you can transfer internationally without formally entering the country. jan 02:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)
The article looks pretty good to me. I notice that many of the listings are not formatted using the templates, and are not in alphabetical order, but I dont think that is a big problem. I made some formatting changes to "see" listings, and some idiom changes in the top half of the article. I might get a chance to go back and do more later, but I dont see anything major that needs changing for DoTM. I would say structure is good, formatting good with exceptions mentioned, but no opinion on completeness. • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:47, 23 February 2011 (EST)


Thanks for the welcome. Hoping to pitch in some more on diving articles (just came back from Truk Lagoon). I actually dived in Durban once, many years ago. Some hard core divers you have over there! All the best. Legis 20:23, 22 February 2011 (EST)

Wikitravel:Star nominations[edit]

Hi Peter, just left a note for you on Wikitravel:Star nominations, keep up the good work it is looking really good. Cheers-- felix 12:52, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

Dive Site Maps[edit]

I am very impressed by your dive maps and dive site details. Wow. :) I always wanted to do something similar in the UK but never quite got there (yet). I have done about 10 dives in the Cape Town area on holiday. The one and only site I have mapped is Leybourne in the UK. Anyway, keep up the good work. --TimSC 14:09, 25 July 2011 (EDT)

Test message[edit]

Hi Peter, I can get here! Mauro

Login issues[edit]

Since you're editing again I assume your login issues are resolved? Do you know what the problem was? -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:17, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

Not really, I have been testing using a friend's computer. and am now using a dialup modem on my laptop to see if that makes any difference. Cheers • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 10:28, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

Watchlist out of action?[edit]

I get the following every time I try to open my watchlist today. Has this happened to anyone else?

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software.
The last attempted database query was: 
(SQL query hidden)
from within function "wfSpecialWatchlist". MySQL returned error "1: Can't create/write to file
'#sql_e08_0.MYD' (Errcode: 17) (wikidb)".

Cheers. • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 09:09, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

Peter, I just started to get this as well -- looking into it, thanks for reporting.--IBobi 14:40, 3 November 2011 (EDT)
The Recentchanges page also keeps giving a white page. This has been taking place for weeks. --globe-trotter 15:19, 3 November 2011 (EDT)
globe-trotter, see the comments above re: #Preferences Reseting? to fix recent changes - on your preferences go to the "Recent Changes" tab and make sure that "Days to show" and "Number of changes" are set to non-zero numbers. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:43, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

Watchlist should be back in action now -- please let me know if this is not the case for you.--IBobi 19:40, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

Worked fine when I logged on today. • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 23:31, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

The message above was swept in from the pub. JamesA >talk 04:38, 4 June 2012 (EDT)

Notice from IBlegal[edit]

Please be advised your recent actions communicating directly with members of Wikitravel could put you in violation of numerous federal and state laws. We strongly urge you to cease and desist all action detrimental to If you persist in this course of conduct, you will potentially be a named defendant, and therefore liable for any and all resulting damages.--IBlegal 14:51, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

Please be more specific with your accusations. Also please indicate where it is specified that any Wikitravel user is not permitted to communicate directly with other members of Wikitravel. If a detailed explanation is not forthcoming I will assume this is all bluff, and in poor taste as well. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:13, 21 August 2012 (EDT)
Another thing, who are you anyway? • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:18, 21 August 2012 (EDT)
IBobi is duplicating himself. Just as he has at the RfC on meta. Bad form all around. 17:47, 21 August 2012 (EDT)
I assure you, the notice is from our internal legal department - I have personally verified the account. I believe this notice specifically refers to the unsolicited spamming of a large number of Wikitravel users' accounts via email and/or User Talk Pages. See Explanation of changes.--IBobi talk email 17:54, 21 August 2012 (EDT)
Can you explain why I should believe your assurances? Can you name a lawyer in your legal department who is prepared to accept responsibility for the notice? • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:56, 22 August 2012 (EDT)
I have tried to start a discussion of this message at User talk:IBlegal. Pashley 00:35, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

Contributing or not[edit]

I find it sad that some former members of the Wikitravel community make such a big deal about saying they're leaving, and then continue to troll here nonetheless (often as transparently anonymous IP editors). They ought to leave, and contribute elsewhere, or stay and contribute here, rather than this embarrassing hybrid of the two. Don't you agree?--IBobi talk email 20:32, 16 September 2012 (EDT)

Since your definitions of contribute and troll appear to differ so significantly from those of the previous community, I would hesitate to comment on that point. I maintain my contributions for the benefit of my friends and other users who currently use this site, since at present it is the only place they can access that information, on the fundamental principle of "The traveller comes first" on which this wiki was founded, and occasionally revert your obnoxious censorship of user pages. You may take that up as you will, since you appear to have no respect for the traditions and policies agreed by the community. I suppose that a few other users may be doing the same, but since I have not discussed the matter with them, that is only a guess. You may not have noticed, but there are a large number of people, myself included, who contribute to several wikis simultaneously, and find nothing out of the ordinary or embarrassing in that fact. • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 04:32, 19 September 2012 (EDT)
Peter, if you were actually contributing here, it would not be an issue. But since your edits have virtually nothing to do with the editorial content of the site any longer, it appears you are only remaining here to try to interfere with site administration. If that's the case, then you should find a place where you can make a positive contribution. I'm sorry you are not able to find a place for yourself at Wikitravel any longer. Your historic contributions have been amazing, and your editorial and curation contributions are missed. But negative contributions, however you define them -- whether you agree or not with the way the site is run -- are unwelcome, and a waste of your time and mine.--IBobi talk email 14:11, 19 September 2012 (EDT)

Read this carefully and take it at face value, It is not a trick with words. There are no hidden meanings.

I log on, I check my watchlist. If there are changes I check them for vandalism. I revert vandalism. I consider interfering with edits on user pages of my colleagues which are against the wishes of the page owner to be vandalism.

If there are no undesirable edits on my watchlist, I do nothing and log off. Fortunately, there are seldom undesirable edits on the topics I maintain, so there is often nothing for me to do. All my edits are towards maintaining the usefulness of the site for the traveller, while there is no alternative. When there is an alternative available to the ordinary user (ie, traveller) I will no longer waste my time pumping out a sinking ship, as the passengers will be free to leave without loss.

The usefulness of my work to IB does not concern me one way or another. Your opinions also do not concern me one way or another. I hope this is now adequately clear. • • • Peter (Southwood) Talk 09:30, 20 September 2012 (EDT)