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Talk:North Macedonia

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Do we really need all this "Former Yugoslav" stuff? --Jiang

No. --Evan 20:05, 4 Dec 2003 (PST)
Actually, I take that back. I'm not sufficiently versed in the topic to say one way or the other, so I'm gonna back out. --Evan 20:07, 4 Dec 2003 (PST)
It's not absolutely necessary, but then we are going to have to disambiguate it from the Greek and Bulgarian regions of the same name. Maybe Macedonia (country), Macedonia (Greek region), Macedonia (Bulgarian region)? DhDh 22:40, 4 Dec 2003 (PST)

There was an extended debate on this at en:Talk:Republic of Macedonia. I think most people visiting the FYROM would refer to it as just "Macedonia" (like how the western media does it). Problem is, the Greeks find this offensive. Some travel guides also leave out FYRO [1], some don't [2][3]. Maybe Dhum Dhum's proposal will do...but I think Macedonia (Greece) and Macedonia (Bulgaria) will be better. --Jiang 01:19, 5 Dec 2003 (PST)

I think we should include FYRO - it's the right name of the country, it's the one most people use, and it sounds a lot better than having Macedonia (country). Macedonia by itself just sounds ambiguous, especially since people do travel to the Greek region Macedonia (and perhaps the Bulgarian one). -- Ronline, 5 Dec 2003

It's right only to "please" Greece. Most people, the media included, use "Macedonia" by itself. FYROM is just used by governments for political reasons. It can be made clear in the article that there are other regions of Macedonia. --Jiang 22:40, 10 Jun 2004 (EDT)

I'd like to bring this back up and propose moving this to "Macedonia", or at least "Republic of Macedonia" (as in Wikipedia). Jpatokal 01:57, 7 Mar 2005 (EST)
For what it's worth, since this was last discussed some 20 countries including the US have switched their official recognition to "Rep of Mac", without the FY bit. Jpatokal 02:01, 7 Mar 2005 (EST)
106 countries now call a spade a spade, so I think it's time for Wikitravel to follow. Macedonia still redirects straight into Rep of Mac, but I'd be fine with turning it into a disamb page once somebody gets around to writing Macedonia (Greece). Jpatokal 10:25, 15 Jan 2006 (EST)
The Getty Thesaurus of Geographical Names gives "Macedonia" as the English-preferred name. Google news gives about 1800 hits for "Macedonia", 80-odd for FYROM. The most common English name for this place is Macedonia. --Evan 10:36, 1 Feb 2006 (EST)

Setting aside the politics of it (which really aren't particularly relevant), the current set-up doesn't match Wikitravel disambiguation standards. We have two places with the same name, and neither is so "much much more famous" than the other to get dibs on that name. Macedonia should be a disambig page (not a redirect), with Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia (Greece) listed as two Places Known As Macedonia. - Todd VerBeek 23:55, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

Administrative districts[edit]

It would appear that each and every village of a certain size is listed in the 130 or so administrative districts. Wouldn't it make sense to just list 7 or so major destinations like we do for every other country? -- Mark 09:41, 22 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Yes (especially since the FYROM isn't exactly a top destination anyway). The districts are just copied from the CIA World Factbook. Jpatokal 09:55, 22 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Clean up[edit]

Looking at this article it appears it needs a lot of clean up and there is information here that belongs in the city aritcles. I am going to take a shot at it. If I remove anything that someone wants back, please put it back. -- Xltel 10:15, 1 Feb 2006 (EST)


--

Having a quick glance at it do we really need that many names under cities? Around half of the names look like villages. Could we just stick to a list of about 15 max? And give each a brief description two or three sentences per should be enough.

I propose we keep the following on the list;

Skopje, Ohrid, Bitola, Prilep, Krushevo, Kumanovo, Tetovo, Strumica, Kocani, Radovis, Gostivar, Stip, Struga

I think thats a good draft to start with.

- Al Damjo

I could not agree more, but it is our policy to subdivide into subregions when cities lists become too long, rather than to remove links to cities/towns altogether (doing so would leave these articles orphaned). And the number of cities that should ultimately remain on this page is no more than nine. I've proposed a regional breakdown for Macedonia below—would you please comment on whether you think it is a good one, or if it needs improvements. Thanks! --Peter Talk 22:37, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

Currency table[edit]

Ok, I did this maybe sometime last year or the year before, god knows, iunno. But looking at it, it still looks like, as my old boss use to say, poo. Im not a wikiedit expert so i dont know how to draw a proper table. If someone could help me fix that up and possibly throw in the euro in there too? Or do you think we should leave the euro out? Al Damjo 10:47, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

How pretty is Macedonia? Iunno, I dont see pictures![edit]

Surely we can throw in some sveti naum pics in there... right? Or the stone bridge in Skopje? Anything? Anyone? Al Damjo 10:47, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

I've uploaded a few pictures and I'll be uploading more, mostly from Wikimedia Commons. I don't see any good ones of the Stone Bridge there, though. Local hero 16:23, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

Name Macedonia (Republic)[edit]

I changed this article's name to Macedonia (Republic), and moved to merged edits from Macedonia and Republic of Macedonia. I believe the (Republic) portion better follows the Wikitravel:Article naming conventions. Macedonia can now become a disambiguation page. -- Huttite 08:08, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

Creating a disambig page at Macedonia was definitely the right approach. The two closest precedents for how to rename this are Republic of Ireland and Georgia (country), using either the common semiformal name or a generic disambiguator indicating its level on our hierarchy (not form of government). Due to "The Former Yugoslav..." nomenclature, I suspect that "Republic of Macedonia" is common enough usage to work as the article name, but I don't have a strong preference; whichever version we don't use should be a redirect to the other. -Todd VerBeek 08:53, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

Regions?[edit]

We could do with sorting out some regions for Macedonia. If anyone has any ideas how to split the country into a handful of geographical areas, please suggest them below. Or if east and west (as described in the article) is suitable then let's go with that, although might they be too big to be effective? -- Tim (writeme!) 05:58, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

This was recently added, but I moved it out here so people familiar with Macedonia can discuss first before we create all of them – cacahuate talk 01:32, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

The Republic of Macedonia is divided into eight regions:

One can not really divide Macedonia in the suggested 8 regions. For example: Pelagonia is part of Southwestern region. Ohrid region is quite different from Mariovo region in culture, way of life, dialects, interests etc. You can not just include them both in Southwestern region. Either go in detail and iclude all the regions (which would be too many), or stick to general division to east and west and add "along Vardar river" region as it is hard to decide to which part it belongs. Bojan

Regions map draft

Well can someone else suggest something before I arbitrarily divide itper the above ones suggested by Cacahuate?? I'm getting sick of de-orphaning the Strumica article and having the link removed. (Ah well, that link there should do it.) Still, there are several other articles created that are not properly linked due to the lack of regions. The eight regions above are shown as distinct legal and statistical regions without overlap (a map accompanies the article) at Wikipedia here. OldPine 14:38, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

Macedonia is a small enough country where 8 regions might be jumping the gun—I'm not sure that we will generate enough content to justify that. And if there are doubts that the regions even make much sense then I think we should try something else. Give me a second and I'll whip something up. --Peter Talk 17:01, 19 September 2007 (EDT)
OK, I think this map displays what Bojan was suggesting, and I think it would be a perfectly acceptable breakdown, although I don't know very much about the country. I'll clean up the map once we've agreed on the regions breakdown. Any comments, objections, suggestions, etc? --Peter Talk 17:43, 19 September 2007 (EDT)


Works for me. Hopefullly the contributors will soon weigh in. OldPine 11:46, 20 September 2007 (EDT)

Hi :) It is a little bit complicated question (like almost everything here :) I would go with the general division between east, west and along Vardar river. There are many regions in Macedonia with certain differences but I don't see the point in naming all of them. This general division separates the country (I agree it is quite a rough division) not just geographically but also in terms of dialects, customs, culture of living, etc... Along Vardar river region (or Povardarie) is a strange mixture of both the east and the west (it is much more eastern in culture but more western in geography) and it is the main wine growing region. Skopje is hard to include in any of the regions, it is artificially overgrown city, melting pot with little bit of everything 9but ofcourse a distinctive charm of its own :). Bojan

So I take it you mean that the map to the right would be a good way to divide the country into regions? --Peter Talk 23:33, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Yes. Bojan

Jabbalzar please stop copy-pasteing[edit]

Jabbalzar please stop copy paseing articles from exploringmacedonia. You are not doing the Macedonia pages a favor. Also please stop rearanging my articles, if you don't like them feel free to erase them and write new ones, but be careful with the atributes (for example: Bitola has just one park and it is nothing special, or none of the Skopje mosques has tiled interiors) Bojan 11:26, 26 August 2007 (EDT)


Official name[edit]

I believe the edit done is the best way for the article to represent all opionions, Greek and Macedonians. I am Greek and Love Macedonians, and I like this to end. Using the terms the way they were edited, renders subconsciously the name usage approved by both countries and utilises the name under the conutry was granded in UN.

It works either way, so why change it?
I cannot still get the point.
Hello, the official name of the country, recognized by the U.N {the highest authority} is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Thank you.
The official name of the country according to their own constitution is, you guessed it, The Republic of Macedonia. The same name is used in talks with; USA, UK, Russia, China (four of the big five). FYROM is a provisional name, anyway. Al Damjo 10:52, 31 March 2009 (EDT)
THERE IS still a problem with the term Macedonia. I live in Salonica, Greece's second big harbour in Macedonia. I am both greek and macedonian, the same way someone from Sheffield is both english and british, or someone from Sicily is both sicilian and italian. The same problem exists for the other 2.420.000 greek macedonians that live in Macedonia Greece. It causes confusion to use the term as nation-indicating for the people of Fyrom, without a geographical specification. What about the rest? (who are, besides, arithmetically much more.)Would should these people abandon the term?
They didn't abandon the term. The article for Greek Macedonia is Macedonia (Greece). The confusion you speak of is avoided because when one searches "Macedonia", it takes them to a disambiguation page which specifies what Macedonia could mean. --Local hero 15:11, 18 December 2008 (EDT)

I don't think we should buy into this nationalistic debacle, Wikipedia has settled on this name too, and we even explicitly aim for catering to travellers, not users searching for encyclopaedic content - and hence we should use the most common name used by English speakers, which indisputably is Republic of Macedonia.

No, it is not indisputably Republic of Macedonia, it is Macedonia. This page should be moved to Macedonia (country), similar to Georgia (country). --globe-trotter 14:06, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

Nomanclature[edit]

Country name: Republic of North Macedonia

People: ethnic Macedonian

Citizenship: Macedonian (citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia)

Language: Macedonian (South Slavic)

There is NO North Macedonian ethnicity, citizenship, language or culture/cuisine... Please respect the terminology, thank you. —The preceding comment was added by 2600:1:9197:e81c:399c:dd53:4bcf:55d2 (talkcontribs)

There is no North Macedonian ethnicity, citizenship, language and culture, but there is North Macedonian cuisine, because the cuisine is of the country North Macedonia, not of the ethnic group Macedonians. —The preceding comment was added by 212.110.75.149 (talkcontribs)

The only respectful way to write that would be "cuisine of North Macedonia"

Tell me why you changed what I entered.[edit]

I just, for the 3rd time, changed the Festivals section to point to more than the Taksirat festival. I will add more festivals that I know about ... but first someone has to tell me why they changed what I just entered. Dgezh (talk) 20:00, 3 December 2020 (EST)

Hi. Take a look at article's history and you will see that we left an explanation why your edits were changed. GiulioC (talk) 08:54, 4 December 2020 (EST)

After half an hour of looking, I still can't find an explanation. Just suppose I was someone important ... like the person who pays your salary. Would you tell him "Oh, I won't answer your question here. Go look in that place over there where there are manymany things lying around ... you've got lots of time to try to find my explanation."

In summary, I am finding wikitravel an extremely unfriendly place to try to contribute to.

I will GUESS (after looking around for along time) that you find my pointing to https://macedonia-timeless.com/events improper. But let me quote from your own page on the subject of external links, which says that

"The official tourist office or government web site for a destination"

is a proper external link. Dgezh (talk) 10:47, 5 December 2020 (EST)

Thanks for your feedback, and sorry you feel this way about the site. As far as I can see, the only thing that was removed was indeed the link that you mentioned above. Although it is an official link, that same link is already mentioned at the start of the article (only place for official tourism link of the location), we do not want same links repeated in the articles, just add the festivals or other listing, using the listings format, as per our guidelines. When editing, we have a summary field, so that is usually where you can find why something was reverted or changed. I hope this helps, please feel free to reach out if you have any other questions. Happy editing! Adzas (talk) 04:22, 6 December 2020 (EST)
The first time I reverted your edit I simply restored the listing deleted (with a new working link) and moved the content you added (including the official link which I put at the beginning of the article). If you read the article you will see that the link is still there. GiulioC (talk) 04:37, 6 December 2020 (EST)

I don't see that link anwhere in the article. https://macedonia-timeless.com/eng Tell me exactly where it is. Dgezh (talk) 10:18, 6 December 2020 (EST)

That link is all the way at the top of the article, at the introduction. Remember though that we want to keep Wikitravel:External links:links to a minimum in our articles, so just focus on adding content instead, much more valuable. Thanks for your input! Adzas (talk) 04:16, 7 December 2020 (EST)

Oh, I finally found it ... It's that little square with the arrow next to the country name. Look: suppose this was IMPORTANT to you. That you'd loose your job if the reader didn't realize that there was an official tourism web site for the country, and here is where to find it. Would you just stick in a little square with an arrow next to it? Or would you write "North Macedonia Official Tourism Web Site"? Dgezh (talk) 22:13, 13 December 2020 (EST)

Please check our External links policy. GiulioC (talk) 09:28, 14 December 2020 (EST)

(1) That statement of policy is incomprehensible. You guys need to learn how to write. (2) To answer a suggestion for a change by saying "That's not our policy" is not a reason. It's merely a statement that "We decided to do it our way and we aren't discussing it." Try again: "Suppose this was IMPORTANT to you. That you'd loose your job if the reader didn't realize ..."

What I _see_ at the top of the article is "North Macedonia [3] <little square with uppointng arrow>" No indication that you are referring to the country's official tourism web site. Yeah, some of it is blue. But I'm _reading_. So is Mr Smith. He's not a heavy computer user; he runs a hardware store. He's taking a vacation. _Communicate_ to him. Get rid of rules that impede communication.

I suggest you add at the end of the paragraph, after "Greece to the South" the following separate paragraph

Click Macedonia Timeless for the official national tourism web site.

"Macedonia Timeless" will link to that web site, and be in blue. And you can decorate it with little squares with up arrows and numbers in brackets to your heart's content. Make it clear. Isn't that what you want to do?

I worked with computers for twenty years. I'm on a computer every day. I run the web site for my business. And I didn't see that link you said was at the top of the article. You scored zero.

As for "Oh, everyone knows what that little square with the up arrow means", I suggest you go to the airport (where to find travellers) when the epidemic is over, and show twenty people a bit of text with the square with the arrow. Ask them what it means. Report back to me.

Finally, suppose the reader understands that the blue number in brackets, and the square with the arrow somehow point to an external link. But people want to know where a link will take us before we click on it. Yes, the reader wants to be informed! That's what you are trying to do! Inform the reader. Here's how to do it:

Click Macedonia Timeless for the official national tourism web site.

Dgezh (talk) 11:07, 15 December 2020 (EST)

Thanks for your input, sorry you feel that way about our way of adding an official link only at the top of the article. We hope you can look past that and continue to add valuable travel information, let's not focus on links, but content. Happy editing! Adzas (talk) 12:02, 15 December 2020 (EST)

I finally realized: That little "[3]" which links to the national tourism web site: That's exactly the format which your own external links policy - which you yourself pointed me to - says is BAD!!!!

OK. I'm going to change that reference to the format which your policy says is good. Dgezh (talk) 20:39, 22 December 2020 (EST)

Oh, now I see that there is no "edit" button for that first paragraph. So you have a problem: In the first line of the page we have been talking about, you have a reference in a format which your own policy says is bad. We've been discussing exactly this reference - and you didn't notice the bad format. And your setup won't let me fix it. What do you say? Dgezh (talk) 21:03, 22 December 2020 (EST)

If you want to edit the first paragraph, just click on edit at the top of the article, this gives you the whole article in edit format. I see what you are saying about the link format, which is a good point. This used to be a glitch (listings were added somehow in that format), but we encourage new edits to be done according to the good sample, so if you wish to change that feel free to do so. Thanks again for your input! Adzas (talk) 11:41, 23 December 2020 (EST)

How do I edit a picture?[edit]

How do I change a picture in the article to something else? Yes, I see how to upload pictures to commons. But I don't see how the picture is included in the article. When I go to edit the article, there is no indication of how the pictures get where they are. (I want to replace that unattractive and meaningless picture of a rocky road (up to Markovi Kuli, it says), with a nice picture of Jovan Kaneo.) Dgezh (talk) 09:49, 4 February 2021 (EST)

If you just want to change a picture you basically need the filename of the new image. This page may be helpful. GiulioC (talk) 10:09, 4 February 2021 (EST)

I uploaded a picture. I called it "Matka", because that is the name of the place. When I went to put it in the page, i found someone else had uploaded a completely different file called Matka. Is there a convention for how I name my uploads to distinguish them from other uploads? Dgezh (talk) 21:50, 5 February 2021 (EST)

Our Image policy says "Image file names should be somewhat meaningful. Many digital cameras give images names like "IMG00001.JPG". You should try to rename these files to something like "cathedral_in_cologne.jpg", or "spanish_steps.jpg", etc. Use descriptive names with full words and underscores ("_") between the words. This makes it easier for other people to include the image in articles, and it keeps Wikitravel Shared from having name clashes". So, I suggest you to just rename the file you uploaded. Hope this helps! Regards, GiulioC (talk) 03:08, 6 February 2021 (EST)

How do I rename an image file? Where do I even find it? Dgezh (talk) 21:16, 12 February 2021 (EST)

Pictures can be found at Wikitravel Shared. Image names should not be renamed (as they will then no longer be displayed correctly in all articles where that picture is used), if you want to upload a picture, use your own original description, to avoid duplicates. Just see the guidelines on Shared. Adzas (talk) 06:57, 13 February 2021 (EST)