Talk:Mongolia

For future reference the Wikitravel:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Mongolia/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

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The marmots should not be eaten certain times of the year because they can carry Bubonic Plague.

I've got a big foamy beer for the first person who can work this line plausibly into any other article on Wikitravel. --Evan 02:18, 11 Feb 2004 (EST)

I'll buy the second round --ManicParroT 20:13, 19 Nov 2005 (EST)

I wonder, did he put that in because Marmot Day was less than two weeks ago? -phma 07:07, 11 Feb 2004 (EST)

California. You have to be careful camping because the squirrels and chipmunks and other similar animals can carry the plague. There are plenty of animals in the US that still carry the plague. I'll take those beers now by the way. 11:26, 12 July 2009 (PST)

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Here's a question. The Lonely Planet guide for Mongolia led me to the ruins of a city near Kharhorin via GPS coordinates (it's about a half day walk to the nearest town/road). When I slept in the ruins, I took my own GPS fix. I'm wondering if there will be any copyright problems if I publish my own coordinates (differ by about 300ft) and description of what I saw.

Also, as a bit of an aside, Mongolia is a country where it is super-beneficial to have GPS coordinates for sites and towns, since there's probably just the rotted remains of half a road sign in the entire country.

Nicksand 22:11, 22 Feb 2004 (EST)

Knowledge itself is not copyrightable; expression of knowledge is. It should be fine to put in the GPS coordinates you took yourself. Of course, your description shouldn't be encumbered by copyright. --Evan 22:41, 22 Feb 2004 (EST)

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I followed the link to mongolie.mn and it's in French and the title means "French-Mongolian Travel Agency". Should this link be removed for being another guide? -phma 11:27, 25 Sep 2005 (EDT)

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Does anybody know how fare I get with English in Mongolia? I am planning to leave the normal tourist places. Will anybody understand me? 193.216.109.229 07:42, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

A picture or something... maybe some mongolian chicks, a drawing from Ulaanbataar at least?

Regions

The list of Regions is too long, and should ideally be dived into three or four areas, such as East Mongolia, West Mongolia or The Plains etc (see Bhutan and Nepal for examples). Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough with the whole country to attempt this. If someone has this knowledge, then please plunge ahead. Thanks. WindHorse 22:23, 14 December 2006 (EST)

you can't do this marge it to 4 areas east south north west. what you can do is the Gobi, Khangai and Gobi Khangai mixed. make it 3. Gobi - desert, Khangai - mountans. maybe it help for you. south is gobi north is khangai and middle is Gobi Khangai mixed. but area % may be different. S.Baatarsuren 07:18 18 0ct 2009

mongolian hostels

There are fresh info about current news about Mongolia in the LP guide book Mongolia-2005 might be useful for travlloers, who looking for budget travel in 2007 :

" This hidden gem of a guesthouse has clean, quiet, remodelled rooms with single, double and dorm space available .Zaya speaks English,Russian and Chinese and her assistance gets high marks from travellers.The place is often full so try to make a reservation online. The building is located inside a courtyard off Peace Ave, between Los Bandidos restaurant and Za Internet Cafe. It’s the best guesthouse if you’re looking for a bit of quiet and a reasonable amount of privacy. cited from Lonely Planet Mongolia 2005 Edition. p. 73 2/. WHERE TO STAY Ulan Bator has a range of accommodation. At the Zaya Backpacker Hostel, (www.magicnet.mn/backpackza, 976-316-696) off Peace Avenue, a double room costs 18,700 tugrik or about $17, at about 1,100 tugrik to $1, and a dormitory bed is 4,700 turgrik, or about $4. ( http://www.newyorktimes.com/2006/08/06/travel/06explorer.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=0f1c02f4f1b1b02c&ex=1161748800 )

Also good recommedation about Zaya hostel in Hostelworld.com & Hostelbookers.com as a best one in Mongolia.

Currency

Ya i was going through this page and i saw a variety if currencies being used to describe the cost of travel and food and stuff like that...try using one currency please..it will be easy to follow and change it to the local currencies ..like USD can be take as a thumb rule. 15:24, 9 August 2007 (EDT)Yourdeadin 15:35, 9 August 2007 (EDT)Yourdeadin

Random

well i do get the fact that mongolia is a unique country...i have a few questions... In local sight seeings are there any particular sights to visit. like some palaces or some ruins or some temple or some thing like that.

Any other major city other that the capital it self?

Wild animals....I mean while sleeping in a tent is it a threat that some wild animal make come and attack you ?

Goons or thugs...has there been a cukture where people rob you while you are sleeping in your tent

Thanks for your answers Yourdeadin 15:31, 9 August 2007 (EDT)Yourdeadin

Hi, I'm Mongolian and travel professional. You asked; 1.There are many sights to see especially ancient temple/monastery ruins such as Baldan Braibung Monastery, Khar Bukhiin Balgas, Gunjiin (Princess Temple)Sum to name but a few. 2. Apart from the capital, there are 2 major cities called Darkhan and Erdenet. 220 and 370 km from the capital respectively. 3. Wild animals attacks aren't heard of though on very rare occasions, I hear about single person walking in the wilderness, by a lone (rabies) wolf. So, the odds are almost to zilch. 4. Goons or thugs. This is rare too unless you are extremely unlucky to run into some drunkards at night in the countryside.

East Asia?

By what reasoning does Mongolia constitute East Asia? It's not in the EAST, other Central Asians consider them Central Asian, and Mongolians (when asked) will either self-identify as Central Asian or even EUROPEAN.

Now, this is kind of touchy, like most Poles calling themselves Central European while a TINY minority call themselves Eastern European, and everyone else's point of view being based on their own view of Poles. But still, I've actually never heard anyone call Mongolia East Asia. Ever.

Seriously, name one way Mongolia is East Asia.

-- East Asian Nation --

Yes, by all means, Mongolia is a Central Asian country. But American foreign policy diplomats had difficulty in grasping this simple and historical fact while planning their aid programs. Mongolia was not part of the Soviet Union. And it is much easier to group Five Stans together, since all of them are former Soviet Republics. Mongolia is not China. So where to put this country? Of course, East Asia, together with China, two Koreas, Japan and Russia. So the notion of Mongolia as an "East Asian nation" originated in White House, Washington D.C., unfortunately, not Library of Congress.

The decision to place Mongolia in East Asia on this site has nothing to do with the U.S. or any government's designation. There is a lengthy discussion [1] that shows how this decision came about on Wikitravel. It makes more sense geographically to avoid having one nation separated from it's region. Although it is true that Xinjiang Province is also culturally more similar to Central Asia, it's presence as part of China isolates Mongolia therefore, it just made more sense to place Mongolia in East Asia. ChubbyWimbus 03:56, 15 December 2009 (EST)

Aimag

I see a proliferation of usage of aimag and aimag center in various Mongolian articles, with only a brief explanation in the main Mongolia article. I really think it just causes confusion for the reader, especially since the aimag article titles all say province. Is there any reason at all that aimag can't be translated simply as province? There is definitely no reason to keep using both indiscriminately, and I don't see any reason to force the reader to learn the word, not really any reason to mention it as anything more than a curiosity. We don't throw around the word ken in our Japan articles expecting travellers to have learned it means province. Why here? Texugo 23:57, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

If you want to head out on your own, you will need to know the word Aimag(province), and also Cym (suem) (county) as most legs of your travel will be to one or the other, since almost all towns are either Aimag Tov (ie center) or Cym Tov. I think maybe we need a language/glossary section to explain some of this.

Aimag (provence)and Cym(suem) is in our language use ordering big and small name on areas, there have more smaller then Cym (suem). "Bag" (buga) is smaller then Cym(suem). what i want to say is its become a name. for example if some one say something about Dundgovi aimag. but you are all ready in that aimag you just call it aimag. it's is confiusing but now is 21 century. few words to learn and pronaunce another language shud be easy more fun i think. when i go to visit Japan (Nippon) i can call the all province as a "ken". aimag is not the provence but we say provence. i think on Japan language "Ken" is not the meaning of provence. maybe you just compare the words to equals. i don't no japan language. end of all just leave the Aimag as Aimag. S.Baatarsuren 2009 18 Oct 07:52

H and Kh

I see we've been using H to represent the Mongolian velar fricatives. That's misleading, since H in the English language is a uvular fricative; moreover we usually use "Kh" to represent this sound, e.g., "Khartoum." Is the H an official transliteration? I see that "Hovd" gets way more hits on Google than "Khovd," although Wikipedia prefers "Khovd." I'm working on a Mongolia map now, and feel a bit inclined to change all H transliterations on our site to Kh. Thoughts? --Peter ^Talk 02:16, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

Re: The Kh v H in Mongolia. There is a problem that the Mongols sometimes translate X in their language to H or Kh. For example: The Road Map of Mongolia, which is the best set of travel maps for Mongolia uses H and spells Harhorin not Khar Khorin there are of course various other spellings. Personally I prefer to use the spellings in the LP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jstampfl (talk • contribs)

Tricky, but Sükhbataar is definitely more common in the guesthouses around UB than current Sühbaatar, Hovd than Khovd and Kharakhorin than Harakorin, but it may very well be LP's influence shining through - in any case trying to pronounce Mongolian correctly, is like getting trying to get Qeqertarsuatsiaat, Greenland right in the first try (incidentally I found Mongolian to sound very much like Greenlanders trying to speak Chinese)

The problem is also related to reading. When the average Mongol writes with English characters, such as on a cell phone, they use H, not Kh. Also the English language version of the "Mongolia Road Atlas", which is very useful when traveling, uses H so we get "Harhorin, Hovsgol, Hovd. Yes, in the guesthouses in UB, but on the road amoung locals you will find "H" is more common. Since without some language instruction you won't pronounce Mongolian such that local people can understand you. But if you write like a Mongolian, they can understand and "Kh" won't work well. What I think is that a language section showing alternate spellings would be useful for travelers who don't want to hang out at tourist sites.jstampfl 02:43, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Hmmmm, Maybe we should go after what get more hits on Google then?

• Sükhbataar 36.000 + wikipedia / Sühbataar 21.500
• Kharkhorin 19.200 + wikipedia / Harhorin 5.500
• Khovsgol 27.000 + wikipedia / Hovsgol 31.100
• Khovd 41.200 + wikipedia / Hovd 237.000

And make it Sükhbataar, Kharkhorin, Hovsgol and Hovd? Cause honestly if I read about Harhorin or Khovd I wouldn't have the first clue that it is the same towns or aimags I'm quite familiar with in the alternate spelling. My point with mentioning the UB guest houses was more in the lines of; this is where people organise their trips out to the Mongolian country side, and the only place they are going to have internet access - so for me it makes most sense to use what they use there, as that is where travellers are going to use wikitravel. I envy people who have travelled independently about Mongolia, but it's definitely not the norm. --Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 13:12, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

It is interesting that the Mongolian Language section in Wikipedia recognizes "h" for the Mongolian "x" not the "kh" used by many western sources. I have been thinking about it alot since I do travel troughout the country on my own, and I often come across travelers doing the same thing. So my thought is that we should include the western version, as in the LP, and the Mongolian spelling.

i am mongolian. i have an idea. you guys just try to write english language on cyrillic and maybe find the unswer. for example "I love my country" to " ай ловье май коунтры" or "й лов-е м-й кaунтры" both same but this is not right to me read english on mongolian cyrilic. i think that's explane all that "kh" or "h" staff. we write everything mongolian cyrillic. then who read this for you unless you learn to read mongolian cyrillic. we not respect tourists come from all around the world learn how to read mongolian alphabet. "No" . try to make something for you to easy. i sugjest just see "h" and double check "kh" what you looking for on your book or map's. take your time it won't long. be happy :)

Hi, Im Mongolian. We should go with the version that's getting more hits on Google. The people running guesthouses aren't really the brightest of the tourism professionals in Mongolia/UB or in the towns/villages. They are just picking the easier version for themselves. If they start using the KH on every information they have to give tourist, very soon they'll find out they wouldn't know how to go on further. In addition, Mongolian language has a lot of sounds producing kh - kh. And I think it started with the British, writng Khara Khoram Highway etc, but LP people being mainly Aussies, trying just another/different version. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gunnermon (talk • contribs)

"h" is the ISO 9 transliteration, the SMS de facto transliteration (because it's shorter than "kh"), and the national railways one, but Mongolian administration uses "kh" on passports.

• A solution would be to use translations as main entries for all names with meaning: "Red-Hero" for "Ulaanbaatar", "Precious" for "Èrdènèt", "Blacksmith" for "Darhan" etc.. Advantages: more interesting, easy to memorise. Disadvantages: there will still be words to be transliterated; except in a few cases ("Peace avenue", "peace bridge", "South-Gobi", "Central province" etc.), this system is not widely used.
• Another solution would be to use ISO 9. Advantages: international, unambiguous system (you can go back to Cyrillic with no hesitation). Disadvantages: the meaning is lost, some accented characters are not directly accessible from an English keyboard, a few Latin characters' pronunciation have to be far from their usual English pronunciation (specially "â" for "я", whose Mongolian pronunciations are "i" or "ya" read as by an English person).
• Yet another solution, to use Mongolian administration system. Advantages: easy to write. Disadvantages: the meaning is lost, several Cyrillic letters are transliterated the same way, which doesn't enable going back to Cyrillic easily and might bring a few ambiguities.
• Yet another one, to use Lonely Planet's system. Advantages: used by many travellers. Disadvantages: the meaning is lost, some accented characters are not directly accessible from an English keyboard, several Cyrillic letters are transliterated the same way, which doesn't enable going back to Cyrillic easily.

However, I think we need a strong decision, to avoid confusion, and we need redirections form the most common alternatives. I would prefer, as main entries, translations when possible, and ISO 9 when not.

--Henri de Solages 01:58, 2 January 2010 (EST)

Interesting, and nice to see an expert show up ;) Translations for names are allowed under our naming conventions only when they are more widely used by English speakers than the local name (e.g., Brussels, not Bruxelles or Brussel). ISO 9 to me looks like a system better designed for the precision required by academics than for a travel guide, where it's more important to have a more intuitive pronunciation for travelers. In my experience, official government translations tend to meet the latter criteria—could you provide a link to the administration system scheme?

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of precision in transliteration from Cyrillic, since this should be made clear at the top of each relevant article with the format required by Wikitravel:Foreign words, e.g., "Khovd (Mongolian: Ховд)." --Peter ^Talk 11:05, 2 January 2010 (EST)

I suspect the problem is broader than just Mongolian. For example, the "Kh" in Persian "Ayatollah Khomeni" is a velar fricative and there's a town on the Silk Road, quite a ways from Mongolia though perhaps near enough to have been influenced, called Hotan or Khotan. I'd therefore be inclined to use "kh", since it is used to represent that fricative when it turns up in other languages.

Incidentally, the "gh" that turns up in English spellings and has many different pronunciations represents a velar fricative that was in Old English but fell out of the language a few centuries back, and using "ph" for an "f" sound is another case where adding "h" is used to indicate a fricative. "kh" fits right in with those.

That said, I don't know Mongolian language or conditions at all, so I'm quite willing to be overruled by those that do. Pashley 12:02, 2 January 2010 (EST)