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Toronto to Chicago train
=== Crime Rate Lies and False Impression === Canada has almost TWICE the violent crime rate of the USA...Fully 1 in 4 Canadians have been a victim of a VIOLENT CRIME. This entire article is a joke and should be deleted. http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/{{Pcotm|July through September 2010/09/28/15502361.html}}{{Pcotw|6 Mar 2006|12 Mar 2006}}
=== Downtown Categorization ===
{{Pcotw|6 Mar 2006|12 Mar 2006}}
Yes, I suck for changing "harbour" to "harbor". If someone has a better plan for spelling, please give it on [[Wikitravel talk:Manual of style]]. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 23:14, 7 Oct 2003 (PDT)
:I'll make this change for you, but in the future please do feel free to edit the actual article. -- [[User:Mark|Mark]] 07:48, 29 Dec 2005 (EST)
 
The Maple Leaf amtrak service travels from Toronto to New York Daily. You can connect at the Depew - Buffalo with the train service from Chicago. Check amtrak fro information.
== Robbery Rates ==
updated crime rates: http://www.toronto.ca/quality_of_life/safety.htm
 
 
Let's be honest, you're more likely to get spontaneously shot whilst slurping some overpriced meal or killed by some trigger happy kid who, in his mad shooting rampage, forgets to take even a single dime from your pocket. What is Canada coming to?! --[[Special:Contributions/174.118.3.92|174.118.3.92]] 23:22, 27 August 2012 (EDT)
== '''Stay Safe Statistics''' ==
This article is about Toronto, Ontario, Canada (i.e. NOT affiliated with the United States or Germany, or any other country). Can someone then explain to me why the editors of this article feel the need to, as with most Toronto articles, throw in jabs at American cities? The U.S. articles don't mention comparisons to Canadian or other international cities. The Mexican articles don't mention comparisons to U.S. or Central American cities not in Mexico. Vancouver has *lower* crime than Toronto yet Vancouver's article doesn't have comparisons. Care to explain this? I think the comparisons need to be removed.
 
=== Crime Rate Lies and False Impression ===
 
Canada has almost TWICE the violent crime rate of the USA...Fully 1 in 4 Canadians have been a victim of a VIOLENT CRIME.
 
This entire article is a joke and should be deleted.
 
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/09/28/15502361.html
 
:I'm guessing you're the same person who wrote the "Anti-Americanism" rant as well? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 21:37, 30 September 2010 (EDT)
 
== Lead image ==
 
Our [[Wikitravel:image policy|image policy]] discourages the use of montages, which is what the current lead image is. Can we find a single image to use instead? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 21:41, 30 September 2010 (EDT)
 
:Yes, I removed the montage. --[[User:Globe-trotter|globe-trotter]] 01:35, 5 December 2010 (EST)
 
::Well, to be honest, I kind of prefer the montage to nothing. But I'll see what I can find to replace it. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 09:41, 5 December 2010 (EST)
 
== To be moved to district articles ==
 
These two listings where found in the article underneath the blind note
<!--Please only give an overview of drinking possibilities in Toronto here. Listings go in the separate district articles-->-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 09:03, 5 November 2011 (EDT)
 
* '''The Feathers Pub''' 962 Kingston Road (416) 694-0443 is possibly Toronto's most British pub, and has approximately 300 single malt scotches available at reasonable prices.
 
* '''The Brazen Head''' 165 Liberty St. East (416) 535-8787 is a large three-storey Irish Pub located in [[Liberty Village]], built on the foundations of a WWI munitions factory, inspired by the same named Pub in Dublin.
 
== Beggars or Panhandlers? ==
 
An IP editor changed three instances of the word "panhandler" to "beggar". The latter word strikes me as somewhat pejorative in North American English; 'panhandler' is the more usual term. My reversion was itself reverted by the IP editor. Thoughts? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 10:39, 8 February 2012 (EST)
 
:Beggars, "Panhandlers" is for the same but south of the border. <small>—The [[ :Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:115.87.241.185|115.87.241.185]] ([[User_talk:115.87.241.185|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/115.87.241.185|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
 
:: I'd vote for panhandlers; beggars is certainly a pejorative and not too helpful in a warning about homelessness. Both words could indeed mean the same thing, but locally "panhandler" seems to be the more common (polite) way to refer to the stereotypical "homeless" looking person waiting for spare change. A beggar is someone who generally asks or money; this would include everyone from the people who sell chocolate bars outside the Eaton Centre, to the people who try to sell cheaper TTC tokens outside automatic subway entrances. These people probably are not "homeless", and I don't think there is any reason to warn of these people here. --[[User:Smgreg|Smgreg]] 22:50, 8 February 2012 (EST)
 
:::Wait, is 115.87 claiming that "panhandlers" as a term is not known in Canada? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 11:03, 9 February 2012 (EST)
::::My experience is that 'beggars' is used in Canada, and not necessarily pejorative. I've only seen 'panhandlers' in US newspapers, magazines & books. <small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:114.160.218.95|114.160.218.95]] ([[User_talk:114.160.218.95|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/114.160.218.95|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
:::::Your experience seems idiosyncratic. [https://www.google.com/search?q=panhandler+site%3A.ca&hl=en&pws=1&biw=1518&bih=900&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=off A Google search] seems to indicate that the term is widespread, even in Canada. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 18:33, 15 February 2012 (EST)
 
:::::Google search? WTF?!?!?! As a Torontonian I agree with previous contributors, and can assure you 'beggars' is common useage and it is 'panhandlers' that more unusual. I would also note that it is not for an American, as I assume you are, to conclude what is idiosyncratic language in Canada. <small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:206.47.39.18|206.47.39.18]] ([[User_talk:206.47.39.18|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/206.47.39.18|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
::::::And a Google search for 'beggar' far exceeds that for 'panhandler': [http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=beggar+site:.ca&pbx=1&oq=beggar+site:.ca&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=4449l8496l0l8845l7l7l0l0l0l0l111l668l5.2l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=f40aac7ee875b15a&biw=1280&bih=651 Beggars > panhndlers] <small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:206.47.39.18|206.47.39.18]] ([[User_talk:206.47.39.18|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/206.47.39.18|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
 
::::::::My friend told me about this discussion, and Ive come here as I am disgusted. How dare an American declare that a Canadian is wrong or idiosyncratic for using a word that differs to what he uses. The word I am familiar with is beggar, and panhandler only from US TV shows & movies. Canada is a country, and is not the 51st state of the US -> we speak how we choose and not how Americans try to dictate. <small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:209.226.201.250|209.226.201.250]] ([[User_talk:209.226.201.250|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/209.226.201.250|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
 
:::::::::As a Canadian, from Toronto, I've head both panhandler and beggar. Panhandling in more official, legal or neutral conversations, begging in more casual or pejorative uses. Maybe we can agree that both terms are used in Toronto, and accept that since that the point of this paragraph is to warn of "aggressive panhandling", we can replace beggars with "aggressive panhandlers"? [[User:Smgreg|Smgreg]] 13:02, 26 February 2012 (EST)
 
::::::::::As another Canadian also from Toronto I disagree that beggar is used in any pejorative sense: it is the more common term, and I would suggest the standard. On the other hand panhandler is far less common, and is US word that should not be used for a Canadian article. I am against any use of it here, including "aggressive panhandling". It should be simply "beggar." Thanx, Steve.
 
::::::::::Panhandling is not a universally understood (English language) term, whilst "beggar" is. WT articles are international in readership. There is no need to use US idiomatic terms in the articles, even in the US articles as it may lead to confusion amongst an international readership. Perhaps the use of ''begging for money'', or ''asking for money from people passing by'' may be less pejorative and therefore less controversial. Perhaps consider using this instead:
::::::::::*Toronto has a visible homeless population, many of whom will ask you for money. If you do not want to provide them with money, simply look the person in the eye and say "No thank you" or just ignore them. If you do give them any money, they usually leave you alone. There have been occasional occurrences of aggressive requests, with one resulting in a fatality. If a person demanding money becomes aggressive, move away quickly and alert a police officer. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 14:42, 29 February 2012 (EST)
 
::::::::::::What utter claptrap. "Panhandler" is ''not'' a "US word"; it is an ''English'' word and a perfectly legitimate one at that. The number of professional Canadian writers who use the word is uncountably high, as a simple Google search demonstrates. Pull the other one, it's got bells on. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 17:20, 2 March 2012 (EST)
 
un-Indent//<br>
Interesting that you refer to what I wrote above as "claptrap". I recalling your efforts to 'inform' me sometime back last year on the contemporary use of the term "Aussie" to collectively describe an Australian person, outlining that it was not at all offensive to Australians and had no pejorative aspect to it and no contemporary derivative racist usage, despite the fact that it does. This was done with the benefit of a view apparently unobscured by the several thousand kilometres of ocean that separate the US from Australia, both geographically and culturally. I recall you readily overlooked and dismissed my own opinion readily derived from my own considerable amount of time spent in that country.<br>
So now you are apparently striving to 'inform' Canadians on appropriate linguistic interpretations in the Canadian articles.<br>
Though I do not have a lot of experience living in the US myself I have most certainly visited there, several family members live there and I have many friends who are either resident there or expatriates abroad. I am not entirely unfamiliar with the place, though I most certainly am an outsider and do not consider myself an expert on either American society or US English colloquialisms. So therefore I will need to rely on what I trust are acceptable authoritative resources.<br>The term panhandler has mixed and slightly confused origins but is clearly of American derivation, with some possible Spanish influences.<br>
It's linguistic origins are readily attributed to references such as the 'panhandle' of Oklahoma and the figurative relationship between an outstretched arm, and a panhandle. If you read some John Steinbeck it may make some sense in the concept of the dispossessed who may turn to begging in some circumstances. Other influences may be attributed to gold panning practices to seek money, and the Spanish "pan", meaning both bread and money.<br>
You mention "Canadian writers" you might find their use of the word is contextual and may have more to do with a seeking broader general North American linguistic market appeal than anything. Language inarguable does cross national borders, especially land borders.
"Aggressive panhandling" is a legitimate (US/American) term and is used descriptively in an ordinance context when defining an aggressive behavioral characteristic of begging. The U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Community Oriented Policing Services, Problem-Oriented Guides for Police Series, No. 13 tackles the issues of panhandling. They describe "aggressive panhandling"; "Generally, there are two types of panhandling: passive and aggressive. Passive panhandling is soliciting without threat or menace, often without any words exchanged at all–just a cup or a hand held out. Aggressive panhandling is soliciting coercively, with actual or implied threats, or menacing actions. If a panhandler uses physical force or extremely aggressive actions, the panhandling may constitute robbery."
* World English Dictionary
panhandle 1 (ˈpænˌhænd ə l)
:— n<br>
1. ( sometimes capital ) (in the US) a narrow strip of land that projects from one state into another<br>
2. (in a South African city) a plot of land without street frontage<br>
panhandle 2 (ˈpænˌhænd ə l)<br>
:— vb<br>
informal ( US ), ( Canadian ) to accost and beg from (passers-by), esp on the street<br>
[C19: probably a back formation from panhandler a person who begs with a pan]<br>
panhandler: from Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition, 2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
* See also: Panhandler:<br>
"Panhandler" is said to derive from the Spanish "pan", meaning both bread and money (just as the American slang "bread" does today). But though it is supposed to have been first recorded in 1890, the earliest quotaton I am able to find for it is in the humorist George Ade's 'Doc Horne'(1899): " He had 'sized' the hustler for a 'panhandler' from the very start". However, the fact that Ade put the word in quotation marks probably indicates that he did not invent it, as has often been claimed. QPB Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins, by Robert Hendrickson<br>
* Panhandle: <br>
something resembling the handle of a pan," 1851, especially in ref. to geography, originally Amer.Eng., 1856, in ref. to West Virginia (Florida, Texas, Idaho, Oklahoma also have them). Meaning "an act of begging" is attested from 1849, perhaps from notion of arm stuck out like a panhandle; verb panhandle
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper<br>
I stand by what I wrote above; "Panhandling is not a universally understood (English language) term".<br>
The US and North America is not the sum of the English speaking word, nor is the Americanised linguistic variation of English the guiding global force in English language usage worldwide. This Canadian legal definition serves to describes it quite well... http://www.saskatoon.ca/DEPARTMENTS/City%20Clerks%20Office/Documents/bylaws/7850.pdf from an area to the geographic area immediately north of the US-Canada border
<br>However, WT is an international vehicle and the language used needs to be sufficiently understandable and free of linguistic intrigue, parochial artifacts and slang that it may be readily understood, also if a term is unnecessarily pejorative to a group of people then it should be expressed in a different but still descriptive manner. There is no readily identifiable need to stigmatise or unecessarily generalise concerning "homeless" people in Toronto or elsewhere in Canada by the use of the term ''panhandler'' as It is highly subjective to consider them all to be "beggars" or "panhandlers". As those who are engaging in activities where money is asked for or demanded may not be homeless at all it is better to just describe that process alone without a subjective qualification. Indeed many beggars worldwide are not homeless, many do it as a money making pursuit using emotional manipulation or implied threats to gain money from others.
 
There is no doubt that 'panhandling' has Canadian usage, there is even an Ottawa Panhandlers Union (though that is a recent thing-2003), and the term is used to describe 'begging' in some legal statutes. That does not mean that it lacks a pejorative context and if it is controversial to use it here in an article there are readily executed alternatives, such as the edit suggestion I made above that can easily avoid any potentially controversial interpretation whilst remaining sufficiently descriptive. I do not appreciate the response that my in good faith suggestion is "claptrap".<br>
By the way "claptrap" is generally considered to have emerged in early 18th century England, a clap trap was a cheap, showy line guaranteed to 'trap a clap' from the audience. The word claptrap went on to refer to any line guaranteed to generate applause or appreciation, first appearing in print is in Nathan Bailey's dictionary of 1721. It is generally defined as:<br>
1.contrived but foolish talk<br>
2.insincere and pretentious talk: politicians' claptrap<br>
[C18 (in the sense: something contrived to elicit applause): from clap 1+trap 1].<br>
In short the clear meaning is that I have written a piece of ''contrived nonsense''. I find your general tone in that regard is overbearing condescending and really quite offensive.<br>
I am not in the habit of writing "claptrap" and do not appreciate the claim that I have here. Try to remember that 'America is not the world', there are other things going on outside that nations borders. If you are hearing bells ringing on you legs LtPowers then maybe it not someone 'pulling' your leg, maybe it is tinnitus, or the bells on your rocking horse, best see a doctor for both those issues. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 02:14, 3 March 2012 (EST)
 
:The more I read the 'Stay Safe' section, the more I disliked it. I just finished a quick edit to the section, to remove some warnings about things that aren't really safety issues, like getting lost in the PATH, or the weather (which is already addressed just fine in the climate section). I left the paragraph on homeless as-is due to this discussion. I don't want to start another debate, but I really don't think homelessness/panhandling/begging or whatever you want to call it is that big of a deal in Toronto. It's certainly not big enough of a deal to warrant the amount of attention it is getting here. In at least the Toronto context, these people are no more dangerous than anyone else on the street, and the solution is common sense; if you feel unsafe, call the police. I'm inclined to re-write that section to be a little bit more specific about the type of situation someone is bound to encounter:
::'''Giving Money'''
::Like most cities, you'll find people on the street and in public areas asking for money, for one reason or another. The most vocal type is often found around Union Station and TTC stations when a subway collector is not on duty. They will often claim to need another few dollars to buy a train ticket, or will offer to sell you a subway token. If you do not want to offer anyone money when they ask, simply say "No thank you" or ignore them. If you are concerned for your safety, simply leave the area. It's illegal for them to block your path or follow you, but if you feel threatened, call the police.
:Wording issues aside, my experience tells me this is a more accurate description of what to be aware of in Toronto. [[User:Smgreg|Smgreg]] 15:34, 3 March 2012 (EST)
::[[User:Smgreg|Smgreg]], the article appears to benefit from that clarification. I am not sufficiently familiar with the city to edit these sort of details so I will not but it is good to see someone doing it. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 02:07, 4 March 2012 (EST)
:::I have a sense that panhandlers are slightly more visible on Toronto streets than in other major cities, but
:One of your sources specifically identifies the word as both "Canadian" and "US" in usage. You seem to now be saying that we shouldn't use the word because it's not universally known... but before that you said that it was a "US word". Using that phrasing implied that the word was not used in Canada, which I hope I've demonstrated to be completely and utterly false. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 16:16, 5 March 2012 (EST)
 
::::The word is clarified clearly as being of US origin, as indicated by the cites I provided. That is not to say that it does not have either contemporary or past Canadian usage and I have endeavored to indicate that with the further cites, also above; namely the example of a central south Canadian provincial statute that specifically uses the term, plus pointing to the ''Ottawa Panhandlers Union'', in addition to one of the dictionary references that mentions it as being; "''informal ( US ), ( Canadian ) to accost and beg from (passers-by), esp on the street''" - ''Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition, 2009''.<br>
::::There is no inconsistency to be found in the information I have provided above, rather it clarifies the words use in both a Canada and US linguistic context and describes it's origins ''Amer.Eng., 1856, in ref. to West Virginia (Florida, Texas, Idaho, Oklahoma also have them). Meaning "an act of begging" is attested from 1849, perhaps from notion of arm stuck out like a panhandle; verb panhandle-Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper''.
::::However that does not determine that it is universally understandable across the English speaking world. Indeed if you read the information above you will see that for example in South Africa it has an entirely different meaning. US English, or Canadian English is not ''International English'' and we need to avoid where possible the use of colloquialisms and idiomatic language in the articles, other than where they are describing the meaning of a particular local term for the benefit of travellers reading the material.<br>
::::It is not appropriate to assume that usage in the US, or adopted use in Canada qualifies the meaning outside that geographic area.<br> Many parts of the world do not even use the term ''pan'' for the common cooking vessel, rather they define it more deliberately, as in ''frying pan'' (not ''frypan'' as in US English), or ''saucepan''. Some may even interpret it as ''pan''; to express a totally negative opinion. ''Pan pan'' can also be interpreted as a call for (emergency) assistance if made by radio broadcast, or the in the movement of a camera, the handle attached to the camera head being called the ''pan handle''. In many parts of the world the WC pan or lavatory pan is called a ''pan'' and they sometimes have a handle, and guess what, it's called a "panhandle".
::::Again I state as I did above, we should not assume that ''America is the world''. Not everyone outside North America understands the various linguistic idiosyncrasies and idiomatic language of the people of the United States.
::::Additionally in this case the phraseology is clearly contentious and it is clearly not necessary or particularly useful to the article to describe the activities of people seeking money by demand or begging as either "homeless", "panhandlers" or even necessarily as "beggars" if there is a more suitable method of description available. I believe [[User:Smgreg|Smgreg]] has already provided a suitably descriptive and eloquent solution to that apparent dilemma.--[[User:Felix505|felix]] 09:35, 6 March 2012 (EST)
 
:::::As a French-Canadian who lived for many years in Toronto, although recently moved to Paris, I add my full support to the use of <beggar> and the exclusion of <pan handler>. This because <beggar> is the word I heard and used for years in Toronto, and <pan handler> only on the TV or from visiting Americans. Oh, and despite what others my claim <pan handler> is an American word: OK and fine, but don't claim it is otherwise and don't try to force its use into Canadian articles -> I find some of the attitudes and opinions expressed on this discusion page by the proponents of <pan handler> to be objectionable, and some of those expressing such to be rude, patronising and arrogant: please could Americans not try to dictate how we speak and write.
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