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Talk:Detroit

19,791 bytes added, 21:27, 22 October 2011
Safety...moved text from last edit that didn't fit WT format, but is informative and could be added in proper format
The 'get out' section in travel guides means way out of the area, not within the Detroit area. I would go along with Ann Arbor being in the get out section, so let's be reasonable. But the tri-county area should be fair game for the 'Detroit area' from a travelers perpective. From a travelers perspective, its a the 'Detroit area'. Having a Northwest side, Southwest, and East side as a travel districts which includes predominantly residential neighborhoods makes no sense whatsoever as some are attempting to limit it, since these areas don't necessarily contain hotels or even restaurants per se, they have families living in them. The districts for travel and tourism for Detroit are more properly Downtown, Midtown, Metro Southwest, Metro East, and Metro Northwest, and Hamtramck/Highland Park can stay if you want since they are an oddity. The way its being limited here is not really proper for the Detroit area, and makes navigation difficult for the user.[[User:Thomas Paine1776|Thomas Paine1776]] 15:12, 27 December 2008 (EST)
:The get out section can be for a place 2 metres from the city or 20 kilometres. It doesn't matter. It is just what you make with it. In [[Edmonton]] there is a few metro area listings. [[User:Edmontonenthusiast|<font color="#339989">'''edmontonenthusiast [ee]'''</font>]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Edmontonenthusiast|<font color="#8848d7">'''.T.A.L.K.'''</font>]]</small></sup> 15:17, 27 December 2008 (EST).
 
:Not sure what your're suggesting. Would go along with Windsor being in the 'get out' section (although it could be a district itself) but Belle Isle, Grosse Pointe, Dearborn, Royal Oak, and Southfield aren't getting out of the Detroit area, they are just getting away from the downtown proper. The tri-county area is predominantly considered the Detroit area for travelers, and focal points are key tourist area districts for Downtown, Midtown-New Center, Metro Southwest, Metro East, and Metro Northwest, and Hamtramck/Highland Park. Its makes for a better travel guide to have a Metro Northwest district article to give the overview for what's in the local municipal cities for example. This makes it more user friendly. [[User:Thomas Paine1776|Thomas Paine1776]] 15:24, 27 December 2008 (EST)
 
::Getting out doesn't mean leaving the area, it means leaving the city/district. For example, Dearborn would go in the "Get out" section of Southwest Side, Grosse Pointe would go in the same section of the East Side article, and Royal Oak and Southfield would go in the Northwest Side "Get out" section (Belle Isle is already in the East Side article). We cannot assume that travellers consider Detroit to be all of the tri-county area. You do have a good point about there not being many hotels in the Southwest, East, and Northwest Sides. So, we could say ''"There are few hotels in [insert district name here]. Neighboring [insert neighboring suburb name here] has a wide variety of hotels within a close proximity to this area"''. I would even be okay with listing hotels outside the city in these district articles. Only hotels though (and maybe restaurants). --'''[[User:Local hero|<font color="blue">Local</font>]] [[User talk:Local hero|<font color="dark yellow">hero</font>]]''' 18:07, 27 December, 2008 (EST)
 
:::Including information on areas outside of the city limits within the Detroit article is a straightforwardly bad idea. It's difficult enough as it is to keep content organized on the site, and to direct readers to the information they are looking for. The appropriate place to highlight attractions outside of Detroit from this article is the "Get out" section. This is standard across the entire site, and ignoring that standard for one article would be a bad way to organize our content. Well developed prose in a Metro Detroit article could also help direct visitors to the appropriate suburbs to see important attractions. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 01:22, 28 December 2008 (EST)
 
===District merge===
 
First, a bunch of relevant districts discussion can be found [[User_talk:Local_hero#District_map_for_Detroit|here]]. Second, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot to write about for either the Northwest or the West sides (especially the latter). Perhaps it would make sense to combine them into one "West Side" article? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 04:14, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
 
:I'd be okay with the two being merged. There just isn't much to see in the West Side. --'''[[User:Local hero|<font color="blue">Local</font>]] [[User talk:Local hero|<font color="dark yellow">hero</font>]]''' 19:16, 25 March 2009 (EST)
== The situation in Detroit ==
Is the do section really necessary, in that, it's lengthliness? It's quite long. If it isn't only keep the necessary ones, if it is district it because it looks so boring to look at. <font color="red">Keep Smiling,</font> [[User:Edmontonenthusiast|<font color="#339989">'''edmontonenthusiast [ee]'''</font>]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Edmontonenthusiast|<font color="#8848d7">'''.T.A.L.K.'''</font>]]</small></sup> 16:30, 22 November 2008 (EST).
 
==Warning box==
 
I really am confused about this article. The key defining characteristic of Detroit is that half of the houses and two thirds of the commercial buildings are abandoned. People strip aluminum siding and yank out plumbing fixtures to buy heroin, guns and drugs are rampant everywhere, and real unemployment rates are likely close to 50%. Detroit is the closest thing we have in this country to the mid-19th Century Five Points in New York -- except it's an entire city's worth. This article seems to have been written in some fantasy land where Detroit's just like any other major city with minor problems. That simply isn't the case -- Detroit is a festering pit of despair from which anyone with half an intellect flees at the first opportunity. Having grown up there, I know this first hand -- there were more abandoned houses on my block than occupied houses, and the situation has only gotten worse in the last few years. I'm at a loss as to why 90% of this article isn't dedicated to how Detroit is a terrible place that nobody should ever go to. {{unsigned|71.249.180.221}}
 
:90% of the article is not dedicated to Detroit bashing because that would not be [[Wikitravel:The traveller comes first|helpful to travelers]] visiting the city. More, and sophisticated, information in the stay safe section on which sections of the city are either more or less safe would be welcome. The warning box you are adding is totally over the top (I'm pretty sure you already realize that) and is borderline vandalism. Please do not [[Wikitravel:Edit war|edit war]]&mdash;if this continues I will protect the article. If you would like to rant about bad experiences you have had in Detroit, there are plenty of other forums in which it would be appropriate to do so. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:27, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
 
:: It's not Detroit bashing -- I grew up there, like I said. People really, truly, legitimately need to be warned away from visiting the place. I'm not going to get into an edit war because obviously that's not appropriate behavior on a wiki site, but the fact remains that this article is delusional. There's a ten block area around the RenCen that's decent, and everyplace else is an absolute nightmare, but this article is somehow totally counterfactual. And, ok, yeah, the warning box is probably over the top the way I put it in, since that was just a cut and paste, but warning boxes certainly are necessary here. I live in New York City now, and it would be entirely appropriate to put a tag on places like East New York or Bushwick that they're actively dangerous, and that non-essential travel should be avoided at all costs, while other areas of the city are obviously much safer. It's the same with all parts of Detroit other than the immediate downtown, and it bothers me that somebody with a "homer" attitude (Local Hero) has decided to make this page his own delusion rather than the realistic warning that people need. Someone could get killed reading this page and thinking it's an accurate portrayal of the city. {{unsigned|71.249.180.221}}
 
:: And, just so we're clear, I'm not some lunatic intent on vandalizing a legitimate article. But the article that currently exists is so overwhelmingly biased and inaccurate (and created almost entirely by one individual who obviously loves his city and wishes to make everyone ignore its obvious, overt flaws) that something really needs to be done about it. Helpful information to travelers would involve places to stay in the Northern Suburbs when you absolutely have to visit on business, and a stern warning not to ever go there otherwise. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just honest. [[User:71.249.180.221|71.249.180.221]] 19:39, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
 
:::Your view of visiting the city still does seem a bit extreme to me, no doubt based on some bad personal experiences, but all interested parties can work that out and come to a more [[Wikitravel:Consensus|mutually acceptable]] solution. Personally, I felt very safe Dowtown, Midtown, and parts of the East Side&mdash;that said, I am definitely not a representative sample of tourists! I've written a lot about sections of [[Chicago]] that most people would not feel comfortable visiting, which may or may not have good examples of how to write a useful stay safe section (e.g., [[Chicago/Far West Side#Stay safe]], [[Chicago/Chatham-South Shore]]). Stay safe sections in Detroit's district articles would especially be useful, as safety can vary block to block around significant attractions (like the Heidelberg Project in East Side), and I'd encourage you to get them started. (Just try to tone it down a bit ;) ). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:54, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
 
Okay, I don't know where to start! Your words are incredibly offensive and untrue. I ''currently'' live in Detroit and I have yet to be attacked, much less killed. I have yet to receive an award for putting my life on the line each day I live here. I acknowledge that many parts of Detroit are unsafe, but nothing compared to a war zone. I obviously made this article to favor Detroit. I see it fair as all other coverage of the city seems to make it seem as dead, worthless excuse for a city that should just be forgotten. But then again, I haven't got half the intellect of you since I decided to stay in Detroit. Your statistics are completely off. I have to question when the last time was that you were here? A lot has changed in the past decade. If everyone in this world was as ignorant as you, then Detroit wouldn't have hosted the Super Bowl, the MLB All-Star game, or continue to host the auto show every year. We're also hosting the NCAA Final Four soon. And, just so we're clear, I do believe you are some lunatic intent on vandalizing a legitimate article.[[User:Local hero|Local hero]] 19:54, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
 
: My words may be offensive to somebody who obviously loves the city, but I'm being realistic here and trying not to be biased or a homer. I've inserted the following paragraph in the "stay safe" section, with citations: "Detroit is the single most dangerous city in America [44]. While the immediate downtown area of Detroit is largely just as safe as the downtown area of any other major American city, most other parts of the city are among the most unsafe areas in the the United States. The overall crime rate in Detroit is more than double the national average; the violent crime rate is nearly five times the national average; and the murder rate in Detroit is nearly seven times the national average [45]. If you must travel to Detroit, it is highly recommended that you stay close the downtown / riverfront area, and that you not travel to other parts of the city alone or (especially) at night." That still gives people the general idea and knowledge that it's not all roses and sunshine like you claim, but it's not so obtrusive as to bother or offend you with your pro-Detroit agenda. [[User:71.249.180.221|71.249.180.221]] 12:52, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
 
: By the way -- are you the same guy who's made all the Detroit - related articles on Wikipedia unnaturally slanted towards a pro-"Detroit is safe" bias? I've noticed that there, and a lot of people have commented on it. [[User:71.249.180.221|71.249.180.221]] 12:56, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
 
:: I do not mind at all that you want to include warnings to people about the city's dangerous parts. But dude, a warning box? That's why I took offense. I'm fine with the paragraph you inserted, except for the first and especially the last sentence. I know its not all roses and sunshine, and I don't have a pro-Detroit agenda either. I am telling people what their is to see, do, and eat in my city. I don't edit on the Detroit articles much on Wikipedia, but it did get featured article status. [[User:Local hero|Local hero]] 15:53, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
:: About your paragraph, no one can make a claim Detroit ''is'' the most dangerous city in America. That's an opinion. I took out the last sentence of your paragraph because anywhere a tourist would stay would almost surely be in downtown or midtown. I also took out other parts that are mentioned in other parts of the same section. [[User:Local hero|Local hero]] 16:01, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
 
::: Well, I mean, the comment about Detroit being the most dangerous city was cited with a quote from an MSNBC article -- pretty reputable source -- with the headline "Detroit Named Nation's Most Dangerous City" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21870766/), based on a statistical analysis of crime data. And I find it curious that you'd say that the areas tourists are most likely to visit would be safe -- the area I grew up in, around Ryan and Outer Drive, is nowhere near the worst area of the city, and it's pretty damned unsafe by most any other city's standards. Other than the casinos and sports venues -- granted, in the pretty much only relatively decent area of town -- I would imagine most people visiting Detroit are doing it either on business or meeting friends and family, and so a relatively high percentage of visitors would be going to less savory areas of town (compared with other cities that actually attract tourists). [[User:71.249.180.221|71.249.180.221]] 12:29, 8 May 2009 (EDT)
 
::::I tend towards thinking that calling a place "the most dangerous city in the country" is too unsophisticated (not to mention sensational). City of what size? Per what definition of dangerous? What crimes are included in this analysis? What weights are they given? It's worth noting, too, that pretty much the entire article you linked was devoted to ''criticism'' of the analysis, by the FBI, American Council of Mayors, American Society of Criminology, etc.
 
::::In any rate, as I suggested earlier, I would strongly encourage you to work on providing sophisticated stay safe information ''for the district articles''. That is going to be a good deal more productive than making sweeping statements about the city, much of which the average traveler will not see. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:35, 8 May 2009 (EDT)
 
I think the first goal of this web site is to give useful advice, as objectively as possible. This article is so disingenuous about safety its laughable. I travel a lot and live in the area. I'd happily let my mom travel around London, Berlin, Tokyo etc. But Peter would you want your mom randomly traveling around in Detroit? Really? I personally know some business associates that have come over clueless and have been victims of crime. I think tourists from other countries, especially people with English as a second language, should be properly warned that many parts of Detroit are not safe for them. Detroit is not Disney Land. Sadly, Detroit consistently ranks near the top in murder rates for large cities over 100,000. See http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates.html. I'm all for promoting Detroit, and economic development, but realize you could be responsible for people getting hurt by not telling them the facts, and warning them to use common sense and take adequate precautions.
 
:Actually, my mother has done a lot of volunteer work in the South Bronx, so that might not be a good example... But would it be helpful for me to rephrase my last comment? Rather than rant on the talk page, please make the effort to write practical "stay safe" information to the district articles, a la [[Chicago/Chatham-South Shore#Stay safe]] or [[Chicago/Far_West_Side#Stay_safe]]? No one is contesting that Detroit is an unusually violent city&mdash;this is a question of where and how to present ''useful'', ''usable'' information, like which attractions are in especially violent neighborhoods. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:12, 22 December 2009 (EST)
 
==Understand==
 
It seems some of this info. might be better suited to Wikipedia, as it's a bit long. [[User:Zepppep|Zepppep]] 20:48, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
 
: Long understand sections are fine, we're not only meant to be a big list. As long as they are not too encyclopedic, and the info is broadly relevant as is (mostly) the case here, it's a keepers. Though it could use some sharpening up. --[[User:Sertmann|Stefan (sertmann)]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Sertmann|talk]]</sup></small> 20:59, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
 
==Work==
 
Poorly organized. Instead of listing 50 different companies, perhaps talk about major industries in general, provide a gov't employment, or talk about some of the more famous companies and trends. Anyone else agree? [[User:Zepppep|Ze
: I fully concur, in any case that work section is meant for short term/volunteer/seasonal employment relevant to travelers, like apple picking and what not. In any case I doubt Detroit is the place to apply for employment at the moment. --[[User:Sertmann|Stefan (sertmann)]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Sertmann|talk]]</sup></small> 20:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
 
== Urbex ==
 
Detroit has some wonderful urban exploration opportunities, which might be worth exploring in the "See" section. {{unsigned|64.252.4.100}}
 
:If you have suggestions, by all means, please add them to the appropriate [[Detroit#Districts|district articles]]. Just be careful to not give information on how to do anything explicitly illegal (WT is generally OK with legal gray areas). We're always just waiting for a knowledgeable contributor to come, [[pf|plunge forward]], and add what they know! --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 02:02, 12 June 2011 (EDT)
 
I would love to, but I'm not a native and I live quite far from Detroit. I think someone more intimately familiar should do it. {{unsigned|64.252.4.100}}
 
== Safety ==
The following was [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Detroit&diff=1771434&oldid=1765683 added recently], but doesn't fit WT formatting and could be incorporated into the "Stay Safe" section by someone knowledgeable about Detroit.
 
:Quick note here from native Detroiter: the above paragraph is painting a too-positive image of Detroit as "below the national average" in crime. This is very misleading! I know Detroiters, and have lived there for 30 years: Detroit, both downtown and also in the outlying suburbs around 8 Mile Road, for example and south of 8 mile is extremely dangerous. Do not casually drive in the suburbs of Detroit! You risk the very real possibility of getting car jacked, shot, or robbed. Detroit is easily one of the most dangerous cities in the USA, easily surpassing East L.A. for example in terms of violent crime. Don't drive around and get lost in the Greenfield/Fenkel area. Do not drive around and ask for directions from the natives. If they realize you are from out of town and a tourist with money you will be robbed. I am not kidding, this is serious shit! I have known natives who have been cut up badly and had their brother killed--simply for looking at someone the wrong way in a Detroit bar. Do not ride a bike in Detroit! You will be knocked off your bike and robbed. I am not exaggerating, I am not kidding. If you visit Detroit, stay in the main downtown, peopled and policed areas. If you drive north on Woodward from downtown in a nice car at night you are taking serious risks--especially if you pull over at a gas station, fast food joint, or convenience mart: you will be robbed most likely. Now that I've said this, please DO visit Detroit and patronize this place which is really, really struggling. The downtown main venues like the Fox Theatre are most excellent venues for taking in a show, or the legendary St Andrews theater. If you are going to see a major music performer you will have absolutely no problems, there is safety in numbers. The primary way tourists and even Detroiters get into trouble in Detroit is by wandering off course into side streets around 4 mile, 5 mile, 6 mile, 7 mile roads. Please bear in mind Detroit is a vast, sprawling megalopolis. It is quite similar to Los Angeles in that you will need a car to get around. There is no public transportation (that's safe to use). Even the downtown Greyhound bus station is sketchy! Be careful and you'll have a great time in the Motor City.
 
[[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 17:23, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
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