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Wikitravel talk:Listings

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Templates for listings

Moved from Wikitravel talk:Using Mediawiki templates by Evan


So, I think one of the great lessons of ja: is that it's easy for users to contribute listings using templates, and that the output can look quite fantastic. I'd like to see if we can start moving to using templates for listings on en: and other languages.

I realize that moving entirely to templates for listing would be a huge amount of effort, but I think we can make it work, and I think the payoff could be humongous. I think it will make it easier to have structured listings, and I think it will make it possible to store tags and other metadata about listings and use that data to enhance search ("Where are there Chinese restaurants in or near Marseille which cost around €15 per meal?"). We could start putting GPS coordinates in for individual listings rather than cities as a whole, and use that data for making maps or for coordinating with geo-aware Web sites like http://www.semapedia.org/ .

And, also, I think we can help new users input listings information. I think the following is as easy or easier to figure out and use than our current formatting.

 {{resto|name=Ouzeri|address=4690 Rue St. Denis|directions=one block north of Avenue Mont Royal
        |phone=845-1336|web=http://example.org/|hours=Tu-Th 5PM-1AM, F-Sa 12PM-2AM
        |price=$25-$35|extra=prix fixe on Fr and Sa
        |desc=Fine Greek dining, great selection of ouzos and Greek wines. Stylish and modern.
              Try the flambé cheese hors d'oeuvre -- it's dramatic.
        |geo=45.5253,-73.5857
        |tags=greek,modern,wine,ouzo,popular,mid-range,plateau}}

(The last two entries would be invisibly rendered as RDF.) We could also look into enhancing our interface with e.g. the Inputbox extension to make adding a new listing (or editing one...?) easier. We'd also need to have parameter defaults working so that incomplete listings like:

 {{resto|name=Ouzeri|address=4690 Rue St. Denis|phone=845-1336}}

...do the right thing. Another benefit of using structured data is that we can start using bots more often for things like geocoding addresses or fixing common formatting mistakes.

The big problem here is not technical but social and organizational. Can and should we do this? Is it worth the effort to get structured listings? Bots and other automation may be able to handle some percentage of the existing listings (...30%? 60%?), but there will be a lot of gruntwork -- I think our experience with removing External links sections, or adding isIn data, is probablly representative.

Of course, if we want to do this, it's not going to get easier later.

I'd like to start talking about this and maybe work up some sample templates that render, more or less, to our current formatting. Comments? Questions? Ideas? --Evan 10:58, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Hell yeah, I've been agitating for this for a long time (you can blame me for doing it in ja: in the first place!) and would be behind this all the way. However, I still think that it's too much to ask for users to be able to edit the raw templates, so enabling/extending Inputbox or equivalent is essential. And sure, there's gruntwork, but there's already a lot of continual gruntwork just in whipping entries into MoS shape and templating would do away with this once and for all. Jpatokal 11:08, 4 March 2006 (EST)e
I think this is a super-great idea! I think we've proven with the +isin -ext links our ability to do site-wide cheanges (heck, I think it's a great way to get people working on pages they otherwise never would have seen). Anyway, I think structured data is going to open up a lot of neat stuff and is 100% the way to go. Majnoona 11:48, 4 March 2006 (EST)
What jpatokal said. We should make it structured without making articles ugly to look at or forbidding to edit. Someone visiting for the first time should be able to add or edit listings without the experience turning negative for him. I just had a look at ja: and I think they've got it right. --Ravikiran 11:31, 4 March 2006 (EST)
And while we are at it, I'd like to revive the idea of using a wizard while creating a new page - a simple one which asks if it is a smallcity, bigcity, region, itinerary, traveltopic etc. and simply inserts a template to edit. --Ravikiran 11:56, 4 March 2006 (EST)
I'd like to volunteer to convert Singapore (and for time being only Singapore) to use templates, and work out any bugs in the process. Any objections? Jpatokal 10:32, 2 April 2006 (EDT)
I wouldn't be opposed, but can any templates that are created be given names that are obvious English words? Someone seeing "resto" wouldn't necessarily know what that's for. Also, are separate templates going to be created for hotels, bars, restaurants and attractions, or is one template sufficient? -- Ryan 15:07, 2 April 2006 (EDT)
I think a lot of it is common, but what about doing Template:Eat for restaurant listings, Template:Drink for bars and clubs, Template:Sleep for hotels and Template:See and Template:Do for attractions? I think they're going to be a lot the same, if not identical.
On top of this -- I'd like to develop extended wiki markup for Wikitravel listings so that a) listings can be rendered as hcard HTML and b) we can save out the listings on the back end into a database, which could then be searched/reviewed/updated/shared/etc. I think getting these templates started is key... at some point we'd just swap the custom tags into the template. I'll put up some examples at User:Evan/hcard examples. --Evan 15:39, 3 April 2006 (EDT)
Agreed with using the verbs for the template names, that's how it's done in ja: and it seems to work fine. I even experimented a little with doing a meta-template [1] which is included into other templates [2] to make the formatting consistent, but I don't think this level of complexity is necessary in the English version.
But Evan, are you saying I should plunge forward with just plain vanilla templates, and the hcard conversion can then be done at some point in the future? I don't really see the big difference between Wikimedia templates and hcard, both are structured forms of information that can be post-processed easily with nothing more than a string parser.
I do think the DB idea is key though: it would be really spiffy-keen to have a shared database accessible across all Wikitravel versions, so (eg.) changing the telephone number in French version would automagically change the number in Japanese one too. Jpatokal 09:52, 4 April 2006 (EDT)
Yes, I think that's one big use; we might even make that database available separately.
So, I had hoped that we could do this: make templates that contained (vanilla) wiki markup, and then later replace the vanilla wiki markup with listings tags, so that Template:Eat would start off as * '''{{{name}}}''', {{{address}}}, ... but eventually change to * <hcard name="{{{name}}}" address="{{{address}}}" ... >. But custom tags don't work very well with template parameters, so I guess I'd ask either a) plunge forward and be prepared to pull back or b) don't plunge forward for a day or so. -- Evan
A day, as in a single 24-hour period? Egads! I think I can restrain myself that long... Jpatokal 12:54, 4 April 2006 (EDT)
Yep. I've already started work on the custom tags, and I'll get them rolled out on wikitravel.org by 1PM EDT tomorrow. We can experiment a bit to make sure they look right (I could probably use some CSS2 help on them...) and then start doing a run-ahead on Singapore and its districts. --Evan 13:51, 4 April 2006 (EDT)

Listings tags

So, there are now 5 custom tags to start experimenting with for listings. They are <eat>, <drink>, <sleep>, <see>, and <do>, and all of them have the following attributes:

  • name
  • address
  • directions
  • phone
  • email
  • fax
  • url
  • hours
  • price

None of these are mandatory technically (although things get screwy if you don't use a name). The contents of the tag become the description of the listed attraction. An example:

* <sleep name="Auberge de la Fontaine" address="1301 rue Rachel est" phone="+1-800-597-0597" 
fax="+514-597-0496" url="http://www.aubergedelafontaine.com/" price="$100-$280">Fun B&B with 25 rooms. 
Located on the Plateau and across the street from Parc Lafontaine. </sleep>

This becomes:

  • Auberge de la Fontaine, 1301 rue Rachel est, +1-800-597-0597 (fax: +514-597-0496), [3]. Fun B&B with 25 rooms. Located on the Plateau and across the street from Parc Lafontaine. $100-$280.

Note that I haven't yet integrated listings into the list format. I'm going to try to re-style these listings to look more like ja:'s listings, although I'm not sure we want to do that yet. Should we try to convert listings to use this structured format first, then change the look and feel? Or do it first as an incentive to change over? --Evan 13:24, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

P.S. Those of you who use tails will note that these listings are valid (if imperfect) hcard listings. --Evan 13:26, 5 April 2006 (EDT)
Incentive. I'd like to change the stuff and see that I really changed it. Although the editor would certainly have to change the entire set of listings in one swoop or it'll look awfully funny. Anyway, if we waited, we may wait forever. It would be like looking at a Christmas present wrapped under the tree. -- Ilkirk 15:05, 5 April 2006 (EDT)
Another question: I'm making the names of the tags (<eat>, <sleep> ..) and the names of the attributes (address, phone, ...) configurable in each language version. Any reason not to? --Evan 11:14, 6 April 2006 (EDT)

Yes, languge-configurability is good (ja: already has localized names). Trying these out in Singapore/Sentosa now, and some comments: Jpatokal 11:18, 6 April 2006 (EDT)

  • URLs should be automatically enclosed in [], so they show up correctly. Now you get the full path visible.
  • A single blank line after a listing turns into an excessive amount of blank space.
  • A <buy> tag would also be useful.
  • If the address is missing, the phone number is also swallowed:

<sleep name="Sijori Resort" tel="+65-6271-2002" url="http://www.sijoriresort.com.sg" price="S$120-">Blah blah</sleep>
Sijori Resort, [4]. Blah blah S$120-.

A couple of responses. First, it's actually kind of a pain in the keester to tap into that link-numbering mechanism, so I skipped it for now and I'll try to get back to it later. It's not merely a matter of wrapping things in [] since the processing goes tag → HTML, not tag → Wikitext → HTML. I'll see if I can figure out a way to do it.
I don't think the numbers are necessary or even desirable, they're pointless and rather weird. IMHO just "web" and the arrow would be much better! Jpatokal 13:00, 6 April 2006 (EDT)
Not sure I understand about the blank line but I'll look into it. MediaWiki doesn't handle custom tags very well if the contents are split over more than one line (gar), so Don't Do That. I'll figure out if there's another way to do it soon.

Test!
First

Second


What I mean is that if you leave a blank line after any entry, then instead of ignoring the line (as currently) it turns it into about 2 blank lines' worth of space. See infobox to the right. (Or is it just Mozilla?) Jpatokal 13:00, 6 April 2006 (EDT)
The buy tag is a good idea.
The attribute is actually phone, not tel. viz.
  • Sijori Resort, +65-6271-2002, [5]. Blah blah S$120-.
This brings up a design question: should we have lots of synonyms for these attributes (phone: tel, voice, ph, telephone), which makes it easy for someone guessing to get it right, or should we have just one name for each, which makes it easier for third-party processors to keep up? I favor the latter. --Evan 12:11, 6 April 2006 (EDT)
Oops! One name each is enough -- as said, for a long-term solution there has to be a way to enter the templates with a friendly wizard, so people never have to guess at the names. Jpatokal 13:00, 6 April 2006 (EDT)

Any progress on fixing these issues? Singapore/Sentosa is now 100% listingfied, but the two bugs that still bug me are 1) the display of links as URLs instead of just "web" [arrow-icon], and 2) the extra white space if I leave empty lines after the listing. Jpatokal 13:26, 8 April 2006 (EDT)

I like just the word "web" (or "website"? or a localized version of same?) for the link. About the whitespace: ugh. I'm going to see what I can do about it; but MediaWiki seems to insist on sticking a "<br />" into pages for no good reason. The last thing I want to do is figure out a good way to render "geo" and "tags". Eventually I'd like to have a Special:Tag that has links to every page and listing that matches the tag (tagcloud, eh?), but I'm going to have to build that out. And I'm not sure how to make it look good (although I think hiding it in the print stylesheet will be good).
Even the word "web" seems superfluous to me; it carries no information. Online, all you need is the box-and-out-arrow graphic in click-me blue (no localization required). Offline, just "http://" is a dead give-away that you're looking at a Web URL. - Todd VerBeek 21:01, 23 April 2006 (EDT)
Here's what I'd like to do next: let's convert 2-3 other big pages and see if we run into anything that we can't handle with the listing format. Then, if we're OK with it, let's change the MoS (Wikitravel:restaurant listings, ...) pages to use this format. --Evan 00:02, 9 April 2006 (EDT)
So, I'd be happy to convert all of Singapore, but I'd like to see the extlink formatting changes — I'm fine with either web-arrow or just plain arrow as suggested by Todd. The extra space after the entries is also a bit bothersome. Jpatokal 00:48, 24 April 2006 (EDT)
One more thing: can we add an optional "map" value that just prints out "Map X."? This could be used to point either to a map grid ("A5") or a listing number ("7"). Jpatokal 22:33, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

One additional request: it would be good if it was made policy that when using a tag to create a listing that ALL fields for that tag should be included, even if some are empty. This policy would be similar to the article template policies - we always include the "Sleep" heading, even if there is no content, to encourage people to fill out the section. Similarly, we should also make it policy to always include (for example) the "phone" field in a listing to encourage people to add that information if it is missing. Thus a listing might look like:

<sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep>

This is probably a minor point, but I think making it explicit policy that fields MUST always be included, even if blank, is important. Also note that if we make this policy it makes the question of whether or not to allow synonyms (phone/tel/etc) a non-issue since people won't need to guess at values. -- Ryan 22:18, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

How about the GPS coordinates? I think it would be most useful to have the coordinates of the restaurants, hotels etc. listed as well. You could do interesting mashups with Google Maps or if you would have a GPS equipped mobile phone you could query Wikitravel where to find a restaurant nearby (my problem always with the new cities! :). Street address is a good start but it is not always possible to convert the street address to a correct GPS coordinates. --Timo 18:15, 5 August 2006 (EDT)

Pictures in listings implemented on Japanese Wikitravel

Just a little heads up: there's now some template magic on ja: to include pictures into the listings, and display a gray default image if undefined. Take a look at eg. Manila. Jpatokal 05:13, 14 April 2006 (EDT)

That's pretty cool. So, I'd like to do that with the tags, but just have nothing if there's no photo. --Evan 08:23, 14 April 2006 (EDT)
Now implemented! Jpatokal 07:09, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

List or not list?

One more thing I'd like to get sorted out: is it really necessary to place the '*' in front of every listing? I think it would be more flexible to enter just <see> and then do the processing under the hood. Jpatokal 07:09, 30 April 2006

In some situations it might be desireable to number listings instead of just bulleting them, to match the numbers used on the corresponding map. (I did this with campsite listings for Isle Royale.) -Todd VerBeek 12:19, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
That's quite brittle though. I've been thinking about doing some sort of automated overlay where you could feed the listings data directly into the map, but creating this would get a bit kinky. Jpatokal 12:56, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
After a week at the Where 2.0 conference, I think this is a huge benefit we could create with Wikitravel. I think if we served information about listings as a WFS and/or KML service, we could let people include Wikitravel data in lots of fancy mapping mashups -- some innovative stuff is going on out there. --Evan 15:48, 17 June 2006 (EDT)
The big problem with doing the <li> tag under the hood is that there's no way to generate valid XHTML that way; you can't tell when the list started or ended. I much prefer the ja: style of one table or div per listing. --Evan 15:48, 17 June 2006 (EDT)
Doesn't using the closing </li> tag after every list item make it valid XHTML? --Rogerhc 15:56, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

Additional attributes and tags

So the following attributes would come in handy:

  • "alt=Blah", for giving a secondary name, esp. in another language. Should be parenthesized and printed in italics after the main name: Sultan Mosque (Masjid Sultan).
  • "map=A1". Reference to a map page/grid.

Also, a "contact" tag for netcafes etc would be handy. Jpatokal 05:12, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

Just a bump for at least the 'alt' tag -- secondary names look really ugly without this. But if you want to be really high-tech, it'd be nice to italicize only Latin scripts (Ux0000-02FF) and leave anything else untouched. Jpatokal 15:43, 17 June 2006 (EDT)

Tag name redundancy

Do I understand correctly that <see>, <do>, <eat>, <drink>, and <sleep> all have the same attributes? If so, do we really need multiple tags, rather than just a generic custom <item> tag? After all, we place and format all of these attributes the same regardless of whether the item they're describing is a nightclub or a museum or a hostel. The only exception I'm aware of is that the Japanese WT uses color coding for the different types (which is nice), but can't that be done with a CSS attribute attached (via a class?) to the section rather than on each item? Another benefit of a generic tag is that it could also be applied to Get in/Get around/Contact items when those call for compatibly-formatted lists. - Todd VerBeek 18:49, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

Yes, they all have the same attributes. I kind of like having the type of the item in the tagname. Would it be good to add an extra <item> tag (or maybe <listing>...) as a "catchall"? --Evan 22:08, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
Yes, it would be good, and <listing> is the better name of the two. I've already run into the problem of not having a 'type' for eg. netcafes, tourist information offices, laundromats, gyms... Jpatokal 22:21, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
Why couldn't listing tags figure out their own type from the context in which they appear in the file? Didn't somebody figure out a way to do that with the old style listings even? -- Mark 01:05, 16 May 2006 (EDT)

Automated conversion script

So I hacked up a couple of lines of Ruby to convert Manual of Style listings to the tagged format, the source is now available at User:Jpatokal/listing.rb. Basically it works by tokenizing each listing on "," and ".", then using regexps to figure out which piece is which -- so you need to follow the MoS pretty closely, but it does seem to handle most permutations pretty well. The tag name to use is figured out from the previous header. Jpatokal 03:41, 4 June 2006 (EDT)

Where are we on this?

I have a bunch of listings I want to add to the Bombay pages. Does it make sense to wait?

No, it's a good idea to start with these listings now. There are a couple of technical fixes that need to be done, but they'll get added soon. --Evan 14:27, 17 June 2006 (EDT)
Can I add tags for future RDF implementation? — Ravikiran 14:43, 17 June 2006 (EDT)
Yes! All the parts of the listing element can be used. However, one point to note: the list item format is probably going to change to work more like the listings on ja:, so be prepared to get rid of the initial * in the future. I think this will just mean a regexp-replace of '^* <' with '<'. --Evan 15:21, 17 June 2006 (EDT)
I'd like to reiterate my whinge that it would be really, really nice to get the wizard-type pages for adding and editing listings created before we plunge too far forward with this. Jpatokal 15:47, 17 June 2006 (EDT)

Are listing tags approved for use now, or are there still outstanding issues? If so, what are those issues? -- Ryan 23:52, 1 November 2006 (EST)

Bumpity-bump. I think there are now stable and so widely used that it's time to officially make them official, officially-like (that is, rewrite the MoS to recommend them). Can or not? Jpatokal 00:44, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
I think so, is there any reason not to? What's the wizard-type thingy for adding listings that you refer to above? That sounds potentially amazing. – cacahuate talk 01:12, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
I recall Evan mentioning that the wizard was up for testing on review, but I wasn't able to find it...? Jpatokal 01:21, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
Try your beloved hometown [6]. Maj 08:50, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
Yep. Just click on the [little gray] "edit" link [at the end of each list item]. It's not finished yet (doesn't save, not all fields) but it will be working RSN. --Evan 08:53, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
Spiffy-keen! Now can you conjure up a button for adding new entries like that as well? Jpatokal 11:19, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
The text fields in the wizard need to be longer. Maybe use a <br/> in the Wizard after each input text field to create room for that. --Rogerhc 16:10, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
Wow! That is an excellent piece of work. Gorilla Jones 16:32, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
Holy ravioli, that's a work of pure genius, sent down from the heavens above. Hallelujah. Indeed, a button for adding new entries like that would be at least as useful. Yay! – cacahuate talk 01:24, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
How will we convert existing listings to be editable in that way? By templating them the way we already are? Is it worth continuing to implement the tags that we have now? – cacahuate talk 01:57, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
Should we continue implementing the tags we've got now? If they're going to be convertible then great, otherwise is it a waste of time? – cacahuate talk 02:55, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
Sometimes on long road trips I pee in a bottle so that I don't have to pull over. Then if someone's tailgaiting me I launch a piss-bomb out the sunroof... keeps me amused – cacahuate talk 05:04, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
In an effort to head off whatever will be the next attention-getter before I have another such visual burned into my brain, you may want to leave a note on Evan's talk page to get his comments, since he's really the only person who can answer this one. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:34, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
Any chance you're related to this chick? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 14:46, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
Ha! First time I've ever been compared to a lesbian in adult diapers. – cacahuate talk 15:19, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
cacahuate: I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're asking. I don't think it makes sense to do any templates ({{sleep}}, {{eat}}, {{drink}}) to replicate what these custom tags (<sleep>, <do>, <buy>, etc.) are doing. The form-based editor currently on review: uses the same custom tags we're implementing here. You should be able to edit the listings on review either in "form mode" or using wiki text. Ideally there wouldn't be much difference. --Evan 09:25, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
That's what I was asking, I was just using the wrong word... should have said "tags". Wanted to make sure those tags are going to be readable by the new form-based editor, and it seems you're saying yes. So, great! – cacahuate talk 05:20, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

Structured tags render with extra paragraph break [was: Possible bug]

The following seems not to format well:

* Here's a bunch of attractions I want to list under some '''common idea''':
 ** <see name="some attraction">Some details</see>
 ** <see name="some other attraction">Some other details</see>

Here's the output, and the last bullet point is doubling:

  • Here's a bunch of attractions I want to list under some common idea:
    • some attraction. Some details
    • some other attraction. Some other details

Hypatia 23:00, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

Actually, in general there seem to be some whitespace issues. If I follow the common convention of leaving a blank line after all the entries of a section, I end up with an extra line of whitespace in the output. Hypatia 23:13, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

I just encountered the same problem. In my case, in Columbia River Plateau#Other destinations, I had text like:

* <see name="Waitsburg Horse Track" alt="" address="blah" phone="+1-etc."></see>, in [[Waitsburg]]

And it renders with the text after the </see> pushed to a new line, i.e.

  • Waitsburg Horse Track, blah, +1-etc.. , in Waitsburg

I'd like to see the structured tags render as if they have no paragraph break at the end. I'd like to be able to use them in a second-level list context, outside of a list, and be able to use text in the paragraph after the listing. JimDeLaHunt 03:21, 7 August 2007 (EDT)

Feature or bug?

  • <eat name = "Britannia and Co" address = "Sprott Road, Ballard Estate, Fort, Mumbai" directions = "next to New Custom House." phone = "+91-22-2261-5264" email= "" fax = "" url = "" hours = "10 am to 3:30 pm (''Open only for lunch'')" price="Rs. 180 will buy you a good lunch.">This rundown restaurant run by a partnership of geriatric brothers (by the name Kohinoor) is a South Bombay institution, having been in existence since 1923. The signature dish is '''Berry Pulav''' the recipe for which the Late Mrs. Kohinoor found in [[Teheran]] while she was working with Iranian Airways. The Parsi favourite '''Dhansak''' is of course available and tastes great. Try the '''Caramel Custard''' for dessert. The waiter may con you to try the Raspberry soda — the first sip is sweet, but the whole bottle is cloying. </eat>

Renders as:

  • Britannia and Co, Sprott Road, Ballard Estate, Fort, Mumbai (next to New Custom House.), +91-22-2261-5264. 10 am to 3:30 pm (''Open only for lunch''). This rundown restaurant run by a partnership of geriatric brothers (by the name Kohinoor) is a South Bombay institution, having been in existence since 1923. The signature dish is Berry Pulav the recipe for which the Late Mrs. Kohinoor found in Teheran while she was working with Iranian Airways. The Parsi favourite Dhansak is of course available and tastes great. Try the Caramel Custard for dessert. The waiter may con you to try the Raspberry soda — the first sip is sweet, but the whole bottle is cloying. Rs. 180 will buy you a good lunch..

Note that single quotes in ''Open only for lunch'' have been converted to "Open only for lunch" and I cannot get to show it in italics.

Bug. Not all tags support markup. Jpatokal 11:31, 9 July 2006 (EDT)
I'd like to keep the contents of the different attributes as easy as possible to edit, and have meaningful separations. How would you feel about an "hours-extra" field for comments about the hours? In fact, most of the different attributes have an italicized extra element that comes after them... --Evan 12:11, 3 November 2006 (EST)

For those of us who are visual learners

Swept in from the Pub:

Has anyone discussed the possiblity of creating some standard icons for various systematic information, such as hours of operation, admission charge, telephone number, guided tours available, photography not allowed, handicap access, restaurant or cafe at the location, etc? Perhaps a small section behind each location description that would include the icons and the related information? I can provide a Photoshopped proof-of-concept if anyone is interested. - Cybjorg 12:37, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

A little bit of that may be coming with a current project to develop custom tags to format listings. You can see an experimental example of a little telephone icon at Singapore/Sentosa#Sleep. I'm not sure that all of the things you mention would be practical, however. For example, handicap accessibility is mandated by law in the U.S., so that icon would have to be added to pretty much every hotel, restaurant, etc. in the country. - Todd VerBeek 15:07, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
I like the idea of tags for various subsets of information. I can't, however, see the telephone icon in your example. My browser (Firefox) simply displays a question mark in place of the icon. Here is a basic sketch of what I had in mind, although it far from refined. - Cybjorg 02:13, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
If you're not seeing the phone, that's probably a font issue; this is using a font character rather than a font image, and the font in use on your system probably doesn't include one. I do like the idea of using icons like this in the listings. It helps break them up visually, making it easier to find information quickly. - Todd VerBeek 08:04, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
Mark's new stylesheets automatically use a section-appropriate icon instead of the usual bullet for the "bulleted list" -- this was part of his style redesign which was done as his entry to the new logo contest. It's a bit of a mystery to me why Evan hasn't implemented it. See his demo site -- Colin 15:42, 17 May 2006 (EDT)
It's a nice looking redesign. I would like to see a full page option, as well as a refined print style sheet, but I like Mark's ideas. I especially like the Table of Contents floated to the right-hand side. - Cybjorg 01:16, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
If you click the arrow in the upper-right of the page, it will widen to full-width. -- Colin 01:32, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Now that I've explored the page a bit more in depth, I also notice that he placed links to various style sheets, including one for print. Very clever. - Cybjorg 02:27, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Colin: sorry about the mystery. I think there are some great features in the skin. I'm currently adapting some of the ideas from Mark's skin into Wikitravel, but it will probably not be included in toto into the site. --Evan 10:05, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Which ideas make the cut? Which ones don't? I wouldn't have spent quite so much time on it or worked so hard to satisfy Niels' requirements if I'd known that it was only ever going to be a demo. -- Mark 16:47, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
I like the sharp edges and the colors as well as moving the table of contents. I like the stylesheet switcher -- it's elegantly executed. I'm not so hot on the per-section listing icons, since we've already got so many images loaded per page. I understand the motivation, but I'd rather reduce than increase the number of files that need to be loaded to see any one page. (See [7] for some points about optimizing our pages.)
I also think it might be possible to do the per-item icons using CSS2 rather than by reparsing the HTML output; Maybe with a CSS selector like: h3#Eat + ul li, but that would require changing how headers are generated (a good thing, in my opinion). I'm not sure how well the "+" in a CSS selector works.
Do you have some key parts that you think are vital to include? --Evan 17:13, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
The one-column style is emotionally important to me since it took the most time, and since I made it directly in response to a user's (Neils') requirement. Do you really think that the listing icons are so heavy? They are less than 1k eeach after all, and should get cached anyhow.
As for the method for delineating the sections, there's a comment right there in the PHP code begging for a better way to do it. -- Mark 17:54, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Considering the size and repetition of the wee icons, I can't see them adding substantially to the "weight" of Wikitravel's pages. I developed a web site 10 years ago that used several images that size in much the same way, and even at 19.2 or 33.6kbps it didn't noticeably affect page-load times, even on the entry page. (Of course all of my HTML was lovingly and optimally hand-coded with height and width attributes, but still...) - Todd VerBeek 18:16, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

I'd like..

I'd like to create a new listing tag, which I guess would be called <event> or what have you. The idea of the tag is to provide the information needed for large festivals or events, but is not covered with the other tags. Something like this:

* <event name = "Oktoberfest" location = "Address or location of event" directions = "directions" transportation = "Bus and subway routes" parking = "Where to park and cost" url = "http://www.fakeurl.com" hours = "9 pm -5:30 pm" admission="Rs. 50 for entrance">Stuff about the event. </event>

How would I go about creating this? -- Sapphire 05:41, 13 August 2006 (EDT)

My take on tags

As someone who has done his share of MoS edits, I feel entitled to put my two cents worth in. I can see the obvious DB benefits to all this, but I really see the method as burdensome to those creating and editing listings. Adding the labels adds a lot of work which will fall on those who are not too lazy to just stick down the name of a place and it's URL. Seems to me like it will work against contributors unless a way is found to translate via some "listing maker" script or something. OldPine 13:15, 22 August 2006 (EDT)

The reason I like these listings is because users seem to provide more information than they normally would with these new listings. Here's my evidence that they seem to provide more information with these listings. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 14:57, 22 August 2006 (EDT)
I appreciate this note, David. One major goal with these tags is to make a popup form for editing, so that you don't have to remember all the fields. There may be some other ways to make them work better, though. --Evan 21:38, 22 August 2006 (EDT)
I am with David on this. A lot of my editing is cut and paste from other sites, then editing to MoS or as close as a hillbilly can get. It seems to me this will be a lot of work for those of us who scour the pages and do MoS edits. Now if there is a script that will go out and do it, then great! But I am thinking this will take me extra time to use. The rigid format is nice, but will it really help to get the job done? Everytime I bring it up, I go ick! I'm not spending that time. -- Tom Holland (xltel) 10:40, 23 September 2006 (EDT)

Non-latin alphabets

I'd like to start using these tags on the Dalian article I've been working on, but as things stand I can't because there's no way to properly handle Chinese names. For example, the Shagri-la hotel listing currently looks like this:

  • Shangri-la (香格里拉大饭店 xiānggélǐlā dàfàndiàn), 66 Renmin Lu, +86 411 8252 5000 [8]. Blah Blah Blah. 880-1,900 RMB

Now, if I were to change that to use tags using the following code:

*<sleep name = "Shangri-la (香格里拉大饭店 ''xiānggélǐlā dàfàndiàn'')" address = "66 Renmin Lu" directions = "" phone = "+86 411 8252 5000" email= "" fax = "" url = "http://www.shangri-la.com/dalian" hours = "" price="880-1,900 RMB">Blah Blah Blah.</sleep>

it would come out as follows:

  • Shangri-la (香格里拉大饭店 ''xiānggélǐlā dàfàndiàn''), 66 Renmin Lu, +86 411 8252 5000, [9]. Blah Blah Blah. 880-1,900 RMB.

With the characters in bold and no way to italicise the pinyin (which is what Wikitravel:Romanization recommends). The only way I see around it would be to create two extra fields, one for non-latin characters and another for romaised pronunciation guides. A pain in the arse, I know, but until that's done these tags aren't going to be much use for articles relating to countries with different writing systems.

On an unrelated note, I was thinking about the phone/fax number field and was wondering whether or not it'd be an idea to add separate fields for country/area codes. That way any distributers of printed/CD versions could easily ommit the codes if their guides are limited to one country or area. I realise it'd create even more fiddly work for editors, which is why I'm somewhat ambivalent about it. Having said that it might, perhaps, be theoretically possible to automate the codes by checking what country/city the article belongs to. I know it could be done, albeit in a long winded way, through meta-templates but I'm not sure exactly how these tags work. --Paul. 10:17, 9 September 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, I was already suggesting this above in Additional attributes and tags, so the listing above would be name="Shangri-la" alt="香格里拉大饭店 xiānggélǐlā dàfàndiàn". This is absolutely critical for Japanese and Korean too. Jpatokal 10:47, 9 September 2006 (EDT)
Agreed. I'm going to hunker down and get all the outstanding feature requests and bug fixes done for listings next week. --Evan 11:42, 9 September 2006 (EDT)
Hi, how is it going? I bumped into the same problem with the Guangzhou page. I converted the eat/sleep parts to listings, but the bolded Chinese characters look like a mess (especially with anti-aliased fonts). --Trsqr 16:45, 16 September 2006 (EET)

Nitpicking

The example given changes the standard time indicators from AM and PM (in the old listing examples) to am and pm. Is this done purposely? Are we tossing out the italicizing of the optional part of phone numbers? Maybe I care too much about standardization? OldPine 18:45, 17 October 2006 (EDT)

No, that's fine. I'll fix the AM/PM thing.
For the optional parts of phone numbers, I'd like to consider some other options, as discussed with Andrew and Mary in IRC. Namely: guides can have a special RDF tag, {{phoneCode|123}}, which sets the phone code for that destination to 123 (or whatever). The default phone code is prefixed to all the phone numbers in listings.
The prefixes are strung together geographically according to the IsIn hierarchy. That way, if the phoneCode for United States of America is 1, and the phoneCode for Santa Monica is 310, then the phone numbers prefixes will be automatically prefixed with +1-310- . If there's a funky phone code situation, then you can add an override at the guide level with {{fullPhoneCode|4-333}}</nowiki>, or at the listing level with a phonecode attribute.
No matter what the phone code is, it will be formatted in italics just in front of the phone number. Does this sound OK? --Evan 15:36, 2 November 2006 (EST)
Yep! Sounds good! OldPine 16:46, 2 November 2006 (EST)
That clever scheme won't work. A hotel open only in winter is going to have a reservations number in a different city with a potentially different area code. In the US, some hotels have only tollfree numbers and no alternative. Or maybe a hotel will be part of a chain, and the chain takes care of running the reservations lines but has a single central number even though the hotels are scattered about several area codes. And once you step outside of the US, I'm pretty sure you can get multiple phone carriers in some areas each with different prefixes. I think you need a different plan for how to cope with the italics. -- Colin 16:49, 16 November 2006 (EST)
Oh, absolutely. If a listing has a phone number that doesn't match the default phone code for the destination, it can have the full international dialing version. If a phone number in a listing tag starts with a plus ("+"), it will be rendered verbatim, without any of the other phone codes prepended. So <sleep name="Some Hotel" phone="555-1234" tollfree="+1-866-555-5678" .... I'll need to do some phone-number-parsing to determine which parts are prefixes and which parts aren't, but I'm sure that's a tractable problem. --Evan 10:01, 12 December 2006 (EST)
This sounds an excellent idea. One big plus is that it would make it easier for others (either mirrors or printers) creating tailored guides to individual areas to customise what the phone listings look like. So somebody distributing a guide solely for one city wouldn't have to include the local and national code every time. --Paul. 11:27, 12 December 2006 (EST)

What's left?

I think there are only a few things left to do on listing tags. Here's my todo list, roughly in order:

  • Automatic area codes, country codes, or city codes. As described above.
  • HTML form editing. Each listing would show an [edit] link (maybe only if you mouse over it). When you click edit, the listing is replaced by a form, with one textbox for each attribute, and a "save" and "cancel" button. Saving will do an AJAX call to the server, and replace the contents of the page correctly.
  • Do something with the geo attribute. I'd like to use the Mapstraction library to make some automated mapping for listed items. I don't think this is a good replacement for real maps, but it might be helpful.
  • Do something with the tags attribute. My goal is for each tag foo, to make a link to Special:Tag/foo, which would list every page and listing tagged foo (maybe with fancy tag clouds and stuff).
  • Conversion bot. Expand Jani's script for converting listings so that it's more forgiving, and apply it to as many pages as possible.

I think that once the phone code thing is sorted out, we can start moving to this format. The other stuff doesn't require any changes to the data. Is this about right? --Evan 16:19, 2 November 2006 (EST)

Please don't forget the alt tag proposed above. Jpatokal 23:03, 2 November 2006 (EST)
It's done! --Evan 01:48, 3 November 2006 (EST)
Err -- could you fiddle the code so it italicizes only Latin characters (Ux0000-02FF), and not the rest? Most non-Latin scripts (see below) should never be italicized. Jpatokal 03:24, 3 November 2006 (EST)
Test entry (해수피아 Korean 赤あかアカ Japanese 中华人民共和国 Chinese). Sniff sniff.
If that's the case, can you do some work on Wikitravel:Foreign words to make that clear? As far as I can tell, they should be in italics. --Evan 11:10, 3 November 2006 (EST)
Edited. Basically, italics are a Latin convention and should only be used for Latin scripts (and maybe Greek, but probably not Cyrillic). Jpatokal 23:29, 5 November 2006 (EST)
Cool, and good to know. I'll try to fix the listings code in the next 48 hours. --Evan 00:01, 6 November 2006 (EST)
Any progress on this? It's still not possible to convert Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc. articles as things stand. --Paul. 15:20, 28 November 2006 (EST)
Yes, this is done now. You may need to do a force-reload to get the new stylesheet, but non-latin chars are now put in an extra span in the alt attribute, which should not show up italic. --Evan 17:38, 6 December 2006 (EST)

Is it too late for another request? How about an IATA/ICAO code attribute so I can get a little creative when I make an airport listing? -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 01:53, 3 November 2006 (EST)

We don't usually do structured airport listings, though. Could you maybe start Wikitravel:Airport listings or bring it up in the Pub? I'd rather have the listings format follow the MoS rather than lead it. --Evan 11:10, 3 November 2006 (EST)
Maybe not the place to ask (apologies in advance), but why do external links open in the same window and not a new window? Seems counter-intuitive to me. OldPine 11:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)
On Safari and Firefox (and maybe the new Explorer), a middle click on a link opens it in a new tab or window. I prefer this because it lets me decide if I want a new window instead of forcing this on me. -- Colin 11:34, 3 November 2006 (EST)
That's my feeling too. The best place to ask this kind of question is on shared:Technical requests. --Evan 12:08, 3 November 2006 (EST)
Sounds right, and though I have never wished to have it in the same window, I support what you're saying. I guess there's some easy way now to log into en and shared all at once, but frankly I'm too old a dog to handle more than en. OldPine 16:56, 3 November 2006 (EST)
There was a request made a long while ago to have Special:Recentchanges for each language version also include changes made to shared, which would make it easier for everyone to keep track of what's happening on shared, although I can't find that discussion now. I also tend to log in to shared very seldomly, and thus miss a lot of what's going on there. -- Ryan 17:05, 3 November 2006 (EST)

Tags Needed

  • tollfree - these numbers are common in the US and are convenient if are dialing from the US.... but they are inaccessible to international callers so it would be nice to tag them differently than mere phone numbers so that international users don't have to memorize the seven different tollfree area codes in +1
  • toll free fax - ugh.
  • reservations vs. hotel main line - Sometimes a hotel lists separate numbers for calling the hotel itself vs. calling to make a reservation. I suppose the hotel should be able to refer your to the other, but maybe we should support having both
  • geo - are you sure (y/n)? lat and long as separate entries makes a ton more sense to me and a lot harder to get wrong, but hey I don't have to write the parser so if you're sure that's how you want it...
  • check-in and check-out for sleep entries. The examples suggest using hours for this, but that's going to lead to style differences in exactly how to phrase it.

-- Colin 16:59, 16 November 2006 (EST)

Some comments, for which I'm sorry I've taken so long. I'm a little reluctant to add attributes for every kind of phone number an establishment can have, but I'm not sure what our alternatives are. One possibility is just having phone2, phone3, phone4, ... attributes. That's pretty blecherous. Another is to have a phone-extra attribute, which renders as an italicized parentheses, which you can put alternate phone numbers or comments in, whatever. So phone="+1-514-555-1212" phone-extra="tollfree: +1-866-123-4567, reservations: +1-514-555-1111". I'm not crazy about that one either.
w/r/t geo, it's not killing me to do a single pair of comma-separated numbers, but you may be right there.
w/r/t the checkin and checkout times, well... I dunno. I think there's a tension in designing this kind of thing between having relatively large attributes with maybe some structured data in it, versus having fields broken down at the atomic level. For example, we have address, but many user interfaces have street-number, street-name, street-type (St., Rd., Blvd., ...). I think the checkin-checkout items might be a good idea, though. --Evan 23:26, 20 November 2006 (EST)
Totally understand about not wanting to put in lots of extra fields. But if there's only one phone number, then the US-o-centric contributors (and marketeers) are going to add the internationally unusable numbers. And that pretty much defeats the point of using internationally dialable phone numbers. -- Colin 23:58, 20 November 2006 (EST)
Another option, and this is probably as ugly or moreso than the existing proposals, is instead of using lots of attributes to instead use child elements which could then have their own attributes. For example:
<sleep name="hotel name">
    <phone number="+1-999-999-9999" />
    <phone number="+1-888-888-8888" label="toll-free" />
    <hours checkin="1PM" checkout="11AM" />
    This hotel is wonderful and has two phone numbers.
</sleep>
I don't know how the existing tags have been implemented, and using child elements may be technically too difficult to consider, but from a practical standpoint it seems like it might add some flexibility. -- Ryan 00:44, 21 November 2006 (EST)
Actually, I think that's pretty elegant; using sub-elements would actually be nicer than attributes if we have a lot of optional fields. However, I'm less concerned with complicating the markup than with complicating the ultimate form interface. Having lots of optional text boxes will make it look pretty daunting... although I guess we could do a basic interface with the most rudimentary fields, and an advanced interface with more of them. --10:18, 21 November 2006 (EST)
So, I'd like to split the difference here and limit our phone number fields to four: phone, fax, toll-free and phone-extra. The last one would be a catch-all text field in which extra phone information or extra phone numbers could be added (without any special styling). I'll add separated lat and long attributes and fall back to geo if they don't exist. Finally, it will make me sad, but I'll add the check-in and check-out attributes for sleep entries, with a fallback to hours if they don't exist. Finally, I'm going to add an hours-extra and price-extra attribute for extra price and hours info. --Evan 14:54, 4 December 2006 (EST)
Please also consider "textphone", as used by people with speech or hearing disabilities. Thank you. Andy Mabbett 09:55, 5 December 2006 (EST)
"textphone" is the kind of exceptional situation which would fit nicely in the "phoneextra" section. --Evan 17:41, 6 December 2006 (EST)
People who need to use such facilities also need to know which number they're available on. You might also like to note the "types" of telephone number currently catered for by hCard, based on those for vcard: home, work, pref, fax, cell, pager. Andy Mabbett 04:18, 7 December 2006 (EST)
OK, I've done all that I said I would just above here on 4 Dec. The only exception is that all the attributes I had hyphens in, like "check-in", don't have hyphens, so it's "checkin". It's part of the deal with MediaWiki. I've updated the main part of the listings page, but it could probably stand to propagate to each of the tag types. --Evan 17:41, 6 December 2006 (EST)
Whoo hoo! Too bad I have to work late tonight and can't launch the bot until late tonight. Thanks! -- Colin 20:52, 6 December 2006 (EST)

Bot Inserted Listings

At Ryan's suggestion, I'm having my bot insert the full set of applicable tags for the sleep listings -- even the optional ones. I'm skipping hours, geo, and tags. I guess the reasoning is that this invites editors to add the extra info. This would not be the normal way a human would do this since I think it's too much to ask of our contributors that they stick in all the fields.

Any second opinions on this? -- Colin 00:18, 17 November 2006 (EST)

Colin and I have already discussed this issue somewhat on his talk page, but I suspect seeing the full set of listing attributes would encourage people to "fill in the gaps", just as they do with articles having empty template sections. It would be nice if there was an easy way for Joe Average User to insert an empty listing tag complete with empty attribute tags, but I'm not sure how to handle that - I normally just copy a full tag from Wikitravel:Listings, but it's kind of a pain to do so. -- Ryan 00:56, 17 November 2006 (EST)
Writing a bot to add the missing tags would be kinda trivial :-) -- Colin 01:06, 17 November 2006 (EST)
If we need to, we can add a set of edit tools like Wikipedia:MediaWiki:Edittools. It's probably also worth noting that with form-based editing, there will be an empty box for every item that isn't filled in. So I don't know if there's much need for the empty attributes. --Evan 09:02, 17 November 2006 (EST)

Tagging

For properties such as "toll free", "dog friendly", "licensed", we could use the 'rel-tag' microformat, linking to pages such as http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/licensed, where there could be a definition of the term, links to other relevant pages, or whatever. Andy Mabbett 16:31, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Name property

The property "name" is described thus:

the name of the hotel, bar, restaurant, museum, or whatever. Recommended.

Note that it's required for hCards. Andy Mabbett 16:40, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Yes, but you can't require much of anything on a wiki. So, listings without names won't be valid hCards. --Evan 17:10, 25 November 2006 (EST)
Better to not parse them, than publish invalid hCards. Andy Mabbett 16:45, 26 November 2006 (EST)

Telephone number format

ITU-T Recommendation E.123, or the Notation for national and international telephone numbers Recommendation E.123, defines a standard way to write telephone numbers. It recommends the following formats (when dialling the area code is optional for local calling):

   Telephone number, national notation:      (042) 123 4567
   Telephone number, international notation: +31 42 123 4567

The parentheses are used to indicate digits that are sometimes not dialled. Parentheses should not be used in the international notation. Andy Mabbett 18:21, 25 November 2006 (EST)

I think that's the format we use; see Wikitravel:Phone numbers. --Evan 14:57, 4 December 2006 (EST)
I'm sure I've seen parentheses in numbers, but can't recall where. Sorry. Andy Mabbett 10:50, 5 December 2006 (EST)

More on addresses and hcard microformats

I've just added a listing for RSPB Sandwell Valley to the page on Birmingham (England). It seems that the whole address is marked up as class="street-address". I believe that it should be just "adr" (but feel free to check on the uFs wiki or mailing list). More helpful would be to mark up the postcode (or zip code) separately (class="postal-code"), as some tools then pass these to mapping sites.

Also, for UK locations, an Ordnance Survey grid reference [10] (e.g. SP035928) would be useful as an optional attribute. Andy Mabbett 16:41, 26 November 2006 (EST)

The address section is only for the street address, not for post codes or other postal information. These listings are for finding restaurants, hotels, etc., not sending them postal mail. --Evan 14:58, 4 December 2006 (EST)
I don't see why not; but, as I said, postcodes are also useful for mapping/GPS (not to mention orientation); and class="adr" is required, for vCard addresses, so "street-address" MUST sit within such a span to be included as part of a valid hCard. Andy Mabbett 10:50, 5 December 2006 (EST)
Seems like it might be a good thing to add the rest of the address information to the tag and then not display it, especially since it should be possible to derive at least the city name from the breadcrumb. It should also be possible to have a bot scrape the web for postal code data and add that later. -- Mark 19:15, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Emboldening issue

I entered hours="'''closed throughout 2007'''" (on the entry for Aston Hall), but the apostrophes were displayed literally, and the text was not emboldened. Andy Mabbett 08:04, 28 November 2006 (EST)

The attributes hold plain text, not wiki text. Styled stuff like that won't work. --Evan 15:00, 4 December 2006 (EST)
I'd suggest that that's documented on the main listings page, then. Andy Mabbett 10:50, 5 December 2006 (EST)

Lat and long decimal places

User:Pigsonthewing added this to the lat/long info: Note: lat and long SHOULD have the same number of decimal places (using trailing zeroes if applicable). I think if we're going to support the geo microformat this is important for output, but that doesn't mean that people need to put any particular number of digits in the input. So I removed it. --Evan 19:23, 10 December 2006 (EST)

No. In coordinates, the number of decimal places specifies the level of precision, so 52.1200 != 52.12. I'll restore the wording.Andy Mabbett 06:24, 11 December 2006 (EST)
In wikis, we try not to set arbitrary rules on input, especially if they can be handled by the software (like this one can). If it's important, I can balance out the number of decimal places programmatically for the output. --Evan 10:27, 11 December 2006 (EST)
It's not arbitrary, and it cannot be handled programmatically, because, as I said, for coordinates, 52.1200 != 52.12. It's also a SHOULD not a MUST, which should satisfy the casual approach taken in Wikis. Incidentally, those words are usually capitalised, in such contexts, per RFC 2119. Balancing decimals certainly is important for output, when I believe MUST applies. This issue is, if you balance while creating the output, do you discard precise data from one value, or infer it, perhaps wrongly, for the other? Andy Mabbett 11:30, 11 December 2006 (EST)
This is a user manual, not an RFC, so in fact the context is different. We use italics for emphasis if we need to. And I'll try to remember to balance out the decimal for output here. --Evan 11:33, 11 December 2006 (EST)
The convention is common in user manuals also, in my experience. RFC 21109 applies to the use of the terms in any document, not just in other RFCs. Also, not that "If latitude is present, so MUST be longitude, and vice versa". Andy Mabbett 14:29, 11 December 2006 (EST)
I don't really see any harm in having the software balance out a user's input by padding a couple of "0" on the end of the latitude string if necessary. Am I wrong? -- Mark 01:41, 2 January 2007 (EST)
Yes. If you add zeros, you're adding information that isn't there - how do you know that the user didn't omit a pair of nines, or some other figure. The only acceptable way to treat mismatched figures is to truncate the one with more digits. Far better to encourage users to be more through in the first place. Andy Mabbett 09:22, 2 January 2007 (EST)


slight fix needed on accomodation listings

See the "check out time" on the mid-range sleep listings on the Chittagong page... needs a period and a space after, before the description... Cacahuate 00:52, 6 January 2007 (EST)

*BUMP* -- Ryan 13:42, 15 January 2007 (EST)
This is fixed now. I also fixed a problem with italicizing the "directions" field. --Evan 13:01, 22 January 2007 (EST)

multiple attributes of one kind per item

Is there any recommendation on having two emails for a single hotel? Using email="email1@example.com; email2@example.com" obsiously gives mailto: them both at once, which may be not supported by some email clients, and it feels better for me to provide traveller a choice which email to use even before email compose window appears. --DenisYurkin 18:27, 6 January 2007 (EST)

BUMP. --DenisYurkin 17:50, 7 August 2007 (EDT)

prices appear beyond bullet in multi-paragraph listings

For sleep tag, prices sometimes drop away from the bulleted block, appearing with no indent. I created a sandbox page demonstrating that: User:DenisYurkin/Sleep sandbox (note the last line on that page). --DenisYurkin 19:32, 6 January 2007 (EST)

You're supposed to format the stuff inside the tags as a single paragraph. Even when things are manually formatted, that's how the MoS asks for listings to be formatted. -- Colin 19:59, 6 January 2007 (EST)
Now we have the same problem in Budapest/Pest#See (see Budapest/Pest#Museums for just one of many examples). Unlike accommodation and places to eat, attractions have every right to have long and detailed descriptions--and they usually have indeed. How are we going to deal with cases like that? --DenisYurkin 17:56, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
I think you can get around this problem by filling out the template, but leaving the description blank, then writing the multi-paragraph description immediately below. I sort of did this for Gori#See, although those descriptions were not actually multi-paragraph. --Peter Talk 19:16, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
It's only a workaround, not a recommended solution, right? I mean, in my belief this solution doesn't fit well into the concept of the tags. --DenisYurkin 10:49, 8 August 2007 (EDT)
The example that is in your sandbox could be edited down to about 2 sentences... I don't think we should be adding <br>'s into the listings... but I do see the problem with the museum example you gave. It's odd that the 2nd paragraph gets indented properly, but not the third... strange... maybe listings that require more than 2 paragraphs should be made into their own subsection... see San Francisco#Seecacahuate talk 01:48, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

HTML in listings?

I just noticed this on the Eger page

 * <sleep name="Senator Ház" address="Dobó tér 11." phone="+36(36)320-466 (tel/fax)" email="senator@enternet.hu"
 fax="" checkin="" checkout="" price="" url="http://www.senatorhaz.hu/"><span id="Senator_Haz"></span>Owner: András Cseh--
 very helpful in person, which is not obvious from emails until you arrive.<br>Most recommended is '''Pátria Panzió''',
 a new building just a quarter away (at Szúnyog köz 3). 
 <br><u>Details:</u> Recommends horseriding  at [[#Matyus_Udvar_Haz|Mátyus Udvar Ház]], but can't help to book with
 them.</sleep>

Which shows up as

  • Senator Ház, Dobó tér 11., +36(36)320-466 (tel/fax) (), [11]. Owner: András Cseh--very helpful in person, which is not obvious from emails until you arrive.
    Most recommended is Pátria Panzió, a new building just a quarter away (at Szúnyog köz 3).
    Details: Recommends horseriding at Mátyus Udvar Ház, but can't help to book with them.

Am I wrong in thinking this goes against the MoS or did I miss a discussion? It really adds more complexity to it, and I don't think it looks great either . I'm also not happy with the "recommends..." wording, that's also not our usual MoS. Maj 23:04, 20 January 2007 (EST)

Maj, all HTML here is mine--and it's solely my idea to introduce it here. As I already replied in my talk page, there was no previous discussion on my usage of HTML pieces like this.
I used only 3 pieces of HTML here. First is <span> used merely to put an anchor we can link to, both from another piece of the article (Eger#Matyus_Udvar_Haz) and from a blog (so I can list places I visited / stayed at in my personal blog, it's in Russian) while driving people to Wikitravel for details of specific places I recommend (thus developing content at Wikitravel). Is there a better way to attach an anchor to a specific hotel or restaurant?
Second and third are <br> and <u>. They are used in Senator Ház (which Patria Panzio is a part of) to introduce some structure to a soon-to-be-longer description like in Matyus Udvar Haz or Fanari Villas. You're right that right now there's not enough content for structurizing--but I will add more in a couple of days. Same for 'recommended' piece--I will add specifics and hopefully end up without recommendation clause at all, at least this will be more MoS-compliant.
Please let me know what you think. --DenisYurkin 02:42, 21 January 2007 (EST)
Please don't do weird-ass shit like this in templates. Listings are supposed to be short, sweet and cover one thing at a time: now you're covering what appears to be two apartments and a horseriding service in the same one!? And the hardcoded BRs, Us etc may not render well if the listing is printed, displayed on a PDA, etc. Jpatokal 06:13, 21 January 2007 (EST)
Is there a policy about using a lot of the internal links like Eger#Matyus_Udvar_Haz? I've been meaning to ask that lately anyway... I'm not sure they're usually all that necessary, and especially to a specific hotel or listing, I can't think of a scenario where that would really be needed... Wikitravel:Internal_links is pretty sparse at the moment... ::: Cacahuate 02:54, 21 January 2007 (EST)
HTML in listings is probably just a bad idea, as the articles should be editable by anyone, not just those with html skills; same goes for html in articles, except for a small number of exceptions where I think html is useful or even require; African_flora_and_fauna would not look to good without the <br clear="all"> tags.
Internal links can also sometimes be very useful, Air_travel_in_South_Africa#OR_Tambo_International from South_Africa#By_plane is one example where I think it is better to use an internal link rather than linking to the main page. Linking to a specific hotel does however seem rather silly. NJR_ZA 06:33, 21 January 2007 (EST)

I have just finished editing information on Senator-Haz which evoked this discussion. I managed to make it without <U> and <BR> tags. However I have something to say on the rest of above comments.

  • I used <span> tag merely to make an anchor that I needed for reason. Do we have a better way to put an anchor we can link to? Can I create an {{anchor|name}} template to allow contributors to make a tag without knowing HTML (or forcing future editors of their contribution to know it)? The reason I need to put an anchor on a specific hotel (to repeat what I wrote above) is the following. When I describe my completed journey to friends in my blog, I only list hotels, restaurants and places I tried (and not/recommend). However, for detail on every item I list there, I link to review on it at Wikitravel--thus driving more readers to Wikitravel, and possibly converting some of them to contributors of Wikitravel--at least encouraging future readers to update what I've found. Isn't this a sufficient reason for allowing to attach anchors to specific hotels? Please keep in mind that Wikitravel is not totally isolated from other Internet tools like blogs, but rather exist in a context; understanding how Wikitravel is used can help us to make it better.
  • I mentioned in the earlier comment that Patria Panzio is a part of Senator Ház hotel. Now it's also clear from the listing itself. Jpatokal, do you have any suggestions on improving this aspect of Senator Haz listing?
  • As the listing read, Senator Haz hotel recommends taking horseriding with Mátyus Udvar Ház horsebackriding facility (and even its site mentions it can help with arranging horseriding). But in reality we had to arrange ourselves, with no substantial help from Senator before we arrived. Jpatokal, any suggestions on how this idea can be expressed in this listing item for Senator Haz?
  • Maj, does it look good overall now?

--DenisYurkin 15:27, 21 January 2007 (EST)

The <sleep> tag, like other listing tags, creates a span with an "id" attribute that you can use for the anchor. It's a munged-up version of the name of the establishment, with underscores for spaces. So, Montreal#Bily_Kun should work. I mostly did this so we'd have URLs to use in RDF statements, but it could work for making links if you're in a real hurry. --Evan 19:40, 21 January 2007 (EST)
Evan, thanks for pointing this. I just looked at the page source and found that all accented letters are removed rather than converted to their non-accented ascii counterparts--so Mátyus Udvar Ház has ID Mtyus_Udvar_Hz. Beyond link readibility, converting them so will protect from broken links when someone finds that a name recorded as non-accented (Patria Panzio) should have accents in it (Pátria Panzió)--I'd be happy if this change keep the old link working. Should I file this as a technical request? --DenisYurkin 00:38, 22 January 2007 (EST)
Again on cutting out accented letters from names: what if we add one more field in all listings, anchor name? This way we could (a) manually convert it to browser-readable, (b) preserve them unchanged even when attraction name change, so that old links still work. What do you think? --DenisYurkin 17:16, 29 January 2007 (EST)
I still don't understand why we would want to have a listing that includes what the listed business recommends.... that seems way outside of our goals. And it looks like there are other ways to achieve the anchor tag functionality you're after too, so I'd rather you reverted the listings you've done. In the future, it would be better to address the functionality you're after on the appropriate discussion page so the best technical solution can be determined, rather than starting out on your own. We're after consistency and consensus across all the guides. Thanks. Maj 20:29, 21 January 2007 (EST)
As for "why we would want to have a listing that includes what the listed business recommends": I can't find good arguments right now, so I changed this piece to the following:
Website says horseriding at Mátyus Udvar Ház can be arranged, but don't expect mech help from Senator--you'll need to contact them directly
Does it look better now? --DenisYurkin 17:35, 22 January 2007 (EST)
I'm with Evan here. Denis, regarding your specific questions, a) travelers don't really care who owns a place to stay, so Patria Panzio and Senator Haz should have separate listings, and b) if you're going to go horse-riding, isn't the default that you have to make your bookings yourself? It might be worth a mention if, say, the pension is right next to the racing track and offers packages or whatever, but it seems non-sensical to say that they can't! Jpatokal 21:54, 21 January 2007 (EST)
As for a): beyond owners, Patria Panzio and Senator Haz shares the same staff, reception, breakfast area and most likely, the way business is done. It's easier to consider them as 2 buildings of the same hotel, each with its own name and yes, having some differences in construction and rooms--but sharing much the same. One of the reasons I combine them is to encourage common characteristics to be placed in common part, while building-specific to go into a respective bullet. What's wrong with using approach like this? --DenisYurkin 00:55, 22 January 2007 (EST)

prefix for hotels, restaurants etc

I would propose to have prefix field for items like sleep, drink and eat. As long as we typically sort listings by name, it would be better to have prefixes like Pension, Hotel, Bar, Cafe to appear non-bold, so it doesn't confuse future editors on whether the item should be placed basing on prefix, or on its proper name (even if you and me know that proper name should be used). I don't think it's that important for suffixes as they don't affect sort order, however. What do you think? --DenisYurkin 06:09, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Actually, a better way to handle this would be to create sitewide naming policy to just use eg. "Hilton" in the Singapore article, instead of "Hotel Hilton Singapore". Jpatokal 07:25, 10 February 2007 (EST)
In regions with many small accomodations with similar names, it may be not enough. I can easily expect that all the following venues can exist in Istanbul, for example:
  • Hotel Sultanahmet
  • Pension Sultanahmet
  • Hostel Sultanahmet
Even more risk for Drink: John's Pub, John's Cafe, John's Club can be all different places in the same town. --DenisYurkin 07:35, 10 February 2007 (EST)

bug in hCard microformat

I have just noticed that the (templated) hCards on Birmingham (England) are marked up with <SPAN class="addr">. This should be <SPAN class="adr"> (with just a singular "d"). Andy Mabbett 07:14, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Got it. That's fixed, now. --Evan 14:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
Indeed it is. Thank you. Andy Mabbett 08:25, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

Form-based editing of listings

shared:Tech:Form-based editing of listings

<drink> tags

Archived from the Pub:

Is this still an experimental feature? I notice it's used in some places (in particular, the Montreal page). The thing is, the external links are unpacked, which I know is not the intent of the Wikitravel:External links policy. I can't do anything abou this as long as the link is inside the <drink> tag. Will the display change as the feature develops? --Dawnview 06:33, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

Yes, it's a known bug, see shared:Tech:Url field of listings should be autonumber or word. --Evan 08:16, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
I personally think it looks a lot better that way. It's a lot more useful if you have to print out the guide and take it with you, too. I still don't get the policy about packed external links (that is, why it is the way it is). Jordanmills 10:51, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
Good point. My thinking (from somone who never prints out the Wikitravel pages) is that if you can get to an internet cafe to visit some website, you can just as easily get to Wikitravel and click on the link, right? That's what I always do. I should try printing out a guide article though, I'd probably miss less. Though I think the idea of the policy is that you should be able to print out a guide and never have to look stuff up on the internet. --Dawnview 14:41, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
The problem with assuming that people can follow the links from Wikitravel is that there's no guarantee that the printed version will be the same as the online version, and so no guarantee that the link will be accessible without trawling through the history. --Paul. 13:18, 1 October 2006 (EDT)

MediaWiki Templates

Archived from the Pub:

I posted this on the MediaWiki_talk:Sleep page but I figured I'd post here and get more coverage. I'm running into issues where lots of hotels have both local and toll free numbers. I would guess that it's most useful to the traveler to list the toll free, but it would be better to list both. Especially since (at least in the USA) toll free number holders have the option to prevent calls from the local area to reduce charges. Jordanmills 14:11, 30 December 2006 (EST)

Never mind, I just found the tollfree property. Jordanmills 14:17, 30 December 2006 (EST)

{{no source}} and {{no license}}

I can't seem to use the {{no source}} and {{no license}] templates for images. These are pretty essential template for a wiki site. Are they called something different in Wikitravel? OoishiMoe 02:07, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

Yes: {{dont know}} works for something that was uploaded without a license selected – cacahuate talk 00:00, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

web/email format

Per a conversation started in the pub, is it agreeable to think about getting rid of the [1] type of listing of websites, and do something more visually pleasing/obvious such as [web] and [email] ?? Jani suggested this should be done in MediaWiki as opposed to any user-initiated change. – cacahuate talk 00:00, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

copied in from the pub:

I'd like that, too. The escalating number-links are odd. Gorilla Jones 00:25, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
Another vote for [web] from me for listings; not sure it will fit links placed in the middle of regular text, though. --DenisYurkin 01:56, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
I would actually lean more towards using icons, if we do this. A flying envelope icon for mail is straightforward, although I admit I don't have a weblink icon in mind. --Peter Talk 02:04, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
I second the idea of using just an icon. What's wrong with the icon we already have that appears next to the number? Texugo 02:47, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
Absolutely nothing, I think that could work great. Should we move our discussion to Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web/email_format? --Peter Talk 17:26, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
I wouldn't mind an icon either, but the current web one is sorta fugly. Surely someone can come up with something more obvious and beautiful. I think the email one is fine. I'd rather condense it to just that than spell out the entire email address as we've been doing... anyone disagree about that? – cacahuate talk 04:01, 13 July 2007 (EDT)
I'd vote for "web" plus the icon, which is clear, reasonably pretty and doesn't take up too much space. E-mail should be the same, just "email" and the letter icon. This is also in line with how the listings show telephone numbers. Jpatokal 04:24, 13 July 2007 (EDT)
I'd love to change this, as keeping the escalating number links in order is a significant pain in my keester. However, I'd really love to see front-linked listings (the name of the listing is the text of the link). Let me note that it's pretty easy for me to change this format for listings that use the listings tags; just a few hours of work. --Evan 14:47, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
Wouldn't the [web] idea be easier for you and me? It means we have talk about changing the Manual of Style, before we use front linked listings. On top of that, we would need to fix 14,000+/15,000+ articles because then the non-coded listings articles would not conform to MoS. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 16:11, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
Arrrrrrgh! OldPine 16:38, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
I wouldn't be opposed to front linking, we already can do it in the body of the text, so the only MoS change is within listings. If Evan is willing to do the work to set up the tags to do that, then we don't need to spend time changing the linking style... we would just continue to do what we're already doing, which is slowly converting old style listings to the new listings tags, and the type of linking would happen automatically. So then, I think we should just discuss what we like more visually... I'd be okay with [web] or front-linking. – cacahuate talk 19:21, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
I hate frontlinking, partly because I have spent painful hours reformatting it, and partly because the MoS led me to believe it was evil(tm) and should never be done in listings. I really feel it glorifies a lack of information by "lighting up" the name text. It also de-emphasizes nearby listings simply because they either have no web site or haven't had one contributed. May I ask how we are gradually converting listings to tagged? Before I burned out and took a break there was an auto-conversion someone wrote up. That was no go? </rant> OldPine 19:28, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
well, lately we've just been doing it by hand. But a bot of some sort would be fairly orgasmic – cacahuate talk 01:46, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
I'd like to revive the icon idea. I agree with OldPine that frontlinking encourages contributors to leave entries as is because it so clearly points to information off our guides. I would actually oppose the [web] idea for the same reason; moreover, I would find the extra text links obtrusive—a step in the wrong direction from the "footnote" style links. The only problem I see with just using the current external link icon is that its not obvious. My two possible solutions: 1. Don't care, we want potential editors to stay here and improve our guides rather than leave for another source; 2. Come up with a more obvious icon. But when all is said and done, this is just my preference and my issues with the other formats are trivial, if others disagree I'll be glad to go along with whichever option is most popular. --Peter Talk 20:04, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
I hate front-linking too, for exactly the reasons OldPine mentioned. For an example, I think that an Eat section where half the titles are blue and the other half are black is not only ugly, but also the restaurants which happen to have a website really get an unfairly advantageous emphasis, even though many restaurants don't have or even need a website. Also, listings which happen to have longer names tend to stand out much more than those with short names so that Billy Joe Bob's Wild West Steakhouse and Saloon looks a lot more important than a place called JB's. I'm fully in favor of the icon idea, and I don't really even care what the icon looks like. Even the icon we have would be better than repeating a bit of text 50 times in every article. Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
If we're using listing tags, we can have front-linked listings that don't have bright-blue text. They can have whatever color we want; they can just be bold text, and show an underline when you roll the mouse over them. Or they could have an underline all the time, or be a slightly different color from non-linked listings. They also don't have to have the little external-link image doohickey. --Evan 12:59, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
Had a feeling people wouldn't like that idea! What about @ and [12] (without the [12])? Or what if Todd/Ryan/Nick/someone made up some beautiful options for icons? – cacahuate talk 01:42, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
If there's maybe some way to make the front-linked listings less obvious then I wouldn't mind them anymore. Howabout we make all listing names bold except the ones with URLs, so we wind up sort of pushing the ones that rely on external links into the background? -- Mark

Wow, I was being really dense above, and just realized my mistake... when Evan suggested front-linking I was thinking along the lines of:

  • Bob's Taco Shop, 123 South St, +1 555 555 5555, bobs.com. A sweet-ass taco shop.

not:

I get it now... I do kinda lean against front-linked listings like that then. If we do start to use them front-linked like that, I don't see a huge amount of difference between bold and non-bold. Examples:

  • Bob's Taco Shop, 123 South St, +1 555 555 5555, www.bobs.com. A sweet-ass taco shop.
  • Bob's Taco Shop, 123 South St, +1 555 555 5555. A sweet-ass taco shop.
  • Bob's Taco Shop, 123 South St, +1 555 555 5555. A sweet-ass taco shop.

Hmmm. – cacahuate talk 11:44, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

Let's not start beating this dead horse again -- this has been discussed ad nauseam and front-linked listings are still doubleplusungood. Jpatokal 11:48, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
Front-linked listings are like a cut in chocolate rations. I agree with OldPine's rationale, and like [web] well enough. Gorilla Jones 12:25, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
Strange, Jani, I thought you were in favour of front-linked listings.
Also, let's not do any conversion of old-style hand-built listings to a different format. Once we're using listing tags, if we decide to change output formats, it's a couple of hours of work for me, and all the listings are changed.
I'm not married to front-linked listings, but I thought they were kind of popular. We actually reached a consensus on them in the past, and backed it out because they looked bad when printed. If we're using listing tags, we can control how they look when printed. --Evan 12:54, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

While I might be new to wikitravel, I have been with another wiki for a number years. I am not sure if this proposal has been decided yet, but since I had brought this subject up again, on the other page, may I offer my suggestion.
I disagree with having a web site listed, because the web site will be viewed with a click on the link itself. The least amount of words, IMHO would be the best, and this is what I had started to do, when I was notified that this conversation was going on.
Instead of using a name, I suggest that the type of food served there, should be seen. After all, when traveling, we get an appetite for a type of food first, and then search the location.
This link might work as neat, short, and helpfulTaco's It would not take that much more work, and would really be more helpful . Revealing the name of the restaurant, and not necessary, as it will show, once the type of food is decided on.

Flowergirl 11:25, 2 August 2007 (EDT)


Everyone, please please remember that using front-linking requires we change 15844 articles to conform with a change in our front-linking policy. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 12:38, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

Names don't appear

I have not tried adding these tags to a page, but when I view some pages that use them, the names don't appear. I checked and they're in the source, but not in the HTML. Here's an example from Galveston:

*<see name="Moody Gardens" address="One Hope Boulevard" directions="off 81st St." phone="800-582-4673" fax="" email="" url="http://www.moodygardens.com" hours="" price="$39.95 day pass"></see>
<ul><li><span class="vcard"><span class="adr"><span class="street-address">One Hope Boulevard</span></span> (<span class="note">off 81st St.</span>), <span class="tel"><abbr class="type" title="voice">☎</abbr> <span class="value">800-582-4673</span></span>, <a class="url external autonumber" href="http://www.moodygardens.com">[3]</a>. <span class="price">$39.95 day pass</span>. </span></li></ul>

Humane Earth 15:28, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, seems to be a funky bug... I fixed the Galveston page by clearing its cache, but this shouldn't be happening, so I filed a bug reportcacahuate talk 23:12, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Translation section

The listings tags do not work when translated into Russian (see ru:Участник:Peterfitzgerald/Listings for an example). I presume that this is not a problem specific to Russian. Perhaps the translated tags do not work in non-Latin alphabets, in which case we should note that. Or perhaps they simply do not work at all in translation, in which we should replace the content of this section with a notice that the tags do not work in other language versions for the time being. --Peter Talk 16:58, 5 September 2007 (EDT)

still experimental?

Aren't we ready yet to remove the "still experimental" banner from this article? --DenisYurkin 17:10, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

I think the elusive new form-based listings editor should hopefully be rolled out before too long, which will make them irrelevant. I think it's ok to add new listings using the tags, but I asked Evan if we should still be converted the old style ones to these and he said not to bother, if I recall. – cacahuate talk 17:24, 20 October 2007 (EDT)
Speaking of which, I put the first version of the listing editor up on review today. There should be edit links next to all of the listings that allow you to edit via an in page form. If the links don't show, try saving the page to update the cache. It currently doesn't handle adding items (something we'd like to do), but you can add a stub listing <see name="my attraction"> and then edit that without having to mess with all of the tags. KevinSours 16:59, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
Looking good! Three things jump out at me at first glance:
  1. Lack of a "description" box
  2. It's not possible to edit listings on an "out of date" page that have since been deleted
  3. Editor box can sometimes cover up important information while editing—would it be possible to make it float, and to enable a click-and-drag functionality to move it around while editing?
I'm really looking forward to having this listings editor completed! Also, is there a better place to discuss the draft version? --Peter Talk 18:41, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
shared:Tech:Form-based editing of listings – let's continue there so all language versions can participate... I'm glad we're moving forward on this! – cacahuate talk 19:38, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

As far as I understand, this is definitely no longer experimental. Moreover, the listings editor will only work for listings that use the tags. I think we should encourage people to either a) convert listings to the tags, or b) create a bot that would do this without human help. Any objections to removing the disclaimerbox & the exhortation to not convert to listings tags? --Peter Talk 16:12, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

Agreed, no longer experimental, OK to convert. JimDeLaHunt 00:15, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

section anchor is overridden by listing anchor

When article contains both listing item and a section with the same name, section anchor is overridden by the listing--see London#Eat. --DenisYurkin 07:16, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Listings using "Do" and "See" tags etc

Is it me or is there something a bit off with the "price" section when using the tag listings format? I just noticed recently that when using this format for listings, it doesn't automatically put a space in between the description of the listing and its price info right at the end. It seems to put a space in between all the other bits like "phone" "email" "hours" etc. It kind of makes the end of the listing look cramped...especially if you do not end it with a period but a tall character like ! or ?. example:

  • Solstice Restaurant and Lounge, 2801 California St (at Divisadero St), +1 415 359-1222 (, fax: +1 415 359-1242), [13]. 5PM-midnight daily. Modern well decorated restaurant and lounge that serves up tasty, yet affordable treats, like "gorgonzola mac-n-cheese" and "tempura battered fish tacos." It gets very packed in the evenings...a good sign! $8-$17.

Asterix 16:54, 31 August 2008 (EDT)

That's definitely happening, and I don't think it was that way before. I let the tech team know. --Peter Talk 23:53, 31 August 2008 (EDT)


Implementation on other wikis

I am interested in implementing almost exactly the same thing on a gardening wiki ( http://www.plants.am ) so that I can add listings of species onto a genus page, with growing zones, watering needs, etc. Can someone please point out a resource to help me figure out how to get it onto there with the nice little "add listing" link and form?? Thanks! Raffikojian 13:04, 24 November 2008 (EST)

Kevin might be able to help you find this information. --Peter Talk 16:47, 24 November 2008 (EST)
I'm after the same thing. It might be useful and helpful to others if this implementation i.e. the javascript and the inputboxes was explained so others could use it on different wikis --rfahey 18:03, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
Kevin is not likely following this page. I recommend contacting him via email. --Peter Talk 21:31, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
Thanks a lot, I'll do that. Regards, Richard Fahey --212.167.5.6 07:40, 14 May 2009 (EDT)
Yes, thanks very much, I'll try that now as well. Raffikojian 09:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

"add listing" issue

Not entirely sure if this is the place to talk about the "add listing" button, but it seems close enough...

As anyone who keeps a close eye on a huge city article knows, often an unexperienced member will add a restaurant, hotel, or some sort of listing to the main city article instead of to the district article, where it belongs. This is nothing new; there has always been confusion surrounding district articles. But then it hit me: we have those "add listing" buttons right on every article on the site, including the ones you're not supposed to add listings to (huge city articles, major regional articles, country articles, etc)!

I'm sure a lot of complex programming went into putting that little feature in, but would it be possible to add something where someone (say, admins) could remove it from articles that shouldn't have it? It just seems silly to have a button in places where no one is actually allowed to use it.

Obviously I'm not a programmer, so if what I'm asking is totally unreasonable or would just be way more trouble than it's worth, then just forget it. It's not like we're dealing with a dire matter here or anything. It's just a thought. PerryPlanet Talk 04:16, 12 January 2009 (EST)

I've seen this issue quite frequently with Chicago as well, and am also reliant upon the efforts of other for help on the programming end. Gorilla Jones 07:22, 12 January 2009 (EST)
It might be possible to create some sort of {{nolisting}} template, but looking at the CSS for the tags there aren't any IDs or other means that would make it easy to do. If IB could modify the code slightly so that all "add listing" links were surrounded in something like <span id="listing_do_1">...</span> then we could put something together that would suppress them from appearing. Might be a good candidate for a tech request. -- Ryan • (talk) • 04:28, 12 January 2009 (EST)
It was mentioned briefly at shared:Tech:"add listing" link occurence improvements, I'm noting it again there now – cacahuate talk 10:11, 12 January 2009 (EST)

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