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Wikitravel:Votes for deletion

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Revision as of 20:35, 21 August 2009 by Bill-on-the-Hill (Talk | contribs)

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This page contains lists of articles and images which are recommended for deletion. Any Wikitraveller can recommend an article or image for deletion, and any Wikitraveller can comment on the deletion nomination. Articles and images are presumed guilty until proven innocent. After fourteen (14) days of discussion, if a consensus is reached to retain an article, it won't be deleted. Otherwise it will be deleted by an administrator. Please read the Nominating and Commenting sections prior to nominating articles/images or commenting on nominations.

See also:

Nominating

The basic format for a deletion nomination is the following:

===[[Chicken]]===
* Delete.  Not a valid travel article topic. ~~~~

Please follow these steps when nominating an article or image for deletion:

  1. First read the deletion policy and verify that the article or image really is a candidate for deletion. If you are unsure, bring up the issue on the talk page.
  2. For the article or image being proposed for deletion, add a {{vfd}} tag so that people viewing the article will know that it is proposed for deletion. The {{vfd}} tag must be the very first thing in the article, right at the very top, before everything else.
  3. Add a link to the article or image at the end of the list below, along with the reason why it is being listed for deletion. Sign your vote using four tildes ("~~~~"). List one article or image per entry.
  4. If you're nominating an image for deletion, make sure it's actually located on the English Wikitravel... many images are located on Wikitravel Shared, in which case they should be nominated for deletion over there instead.

Commenting

All Wikitravellers are asked to state their opinion about articles and images listed for deletion. The format for comments is:

===[[Chicken]]===
* '''Delete'''.  Not a valid travel article topic. TravelNut 25:25, 31 Feb 2525 (EDT)
* '''Keep'''.  There is a town in [[Alaska]] called Chicken. ~~~~

When leaving comments:

  1. First read the deletion policy and verify that the article or image really is a candidate for deletion.
  2. You may vote to delete, keep, or redirect the article. If your opinion is that the article should be kept or redirected, please state why. Sign your vote using four tildes ("~~~~").

Deleting, or not

After fourteen (14) days of discussion, there will probably be consensus one way or the other. If the consensus is to keep, redirect or merge, then any Wikitraveller can do it. If you are redirecting, please remember to check for broken redirects or double redirects as a result of your move. Remove any VFD notices from that page, and archive the deletion discussion as described in the next section.

If the result is delete, then only an administrator can delete. Check if any article links to the image or article in question. After removing those links, delete the image or article. However, if the image is being deleted because it has been moved to the shared repository with the same name, do not remove links to the images, as the links will be automatically be pointed to the shared repository.

Archiving

After you keep/redirect/merge/delete the article, move the deletion discussion to the Archives page for the appropriate month. The root Archives page has a directory. Note that it's the month in which the action was taken, rather than when the nomination was first posted, that should be used for the archived discussion; that way, recourse to the deletion log can lead subsequent readers right to the discussion (at least for the pages that were deleted).

If the nominated article was not deleted, then place another (identical duplicate) copy of the deletion discussion on the talk page of the article being kept or redirected.




March 2009

Nordkapp, North Cape and Magerøya

Delete or Merge. Nordkapp is the name of the municipality in witch North Cape is. Nordkapp is also the norwegian name for North Cape. North Cape is an atraction and as so should not have it's own article in Wikitravel. I think this articles could be merged with Honningsvåg, witch is a small town just south of North Cape. The Magerøya-article might just be deleted, not sure if this is a likely search. ViMy 13:52, 2 March 2009 (EST)

  • Nordkapp is a destination in it's own right, and a pretty popular one too, so i don't think we should merge with Honingsvåg. Never heard the term Magerøya before, but someone obviously has so it can't really hurt just to Merge all of them. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:52, 19 March 2009 (EDT)
  • I know... It's known all over Europe as the northenmost point of the continent. Shuld we merge all into North Cape? Another thing you can't sleep at North Cape... But in Honningsvåg or some of the vilages south of the cape. But of course North Cape is the name everyone know. ViMy 14:18, 2 March 2009 (EST)
  • Merge and redirect all to Nordkapp, which is (I think) the most common name. "North Cape" is ambiguous, but there's only one Nordkapp. Jpatokal 23:30, 2 March 2009 (EST)
  • Keep Separate - To me it sounds like Nordkapp is a destination on the island of Magerøya and you could merge those two if there was on other places on the island. However, North Cape is a different case entirely as it is the name of a tourist destination/attraction in Northland, on the North Island of New Zealand - which means that North Cape should be a disambiguation page. - Huttite 02:39, 3 March 2009 (EST)
    • AFAIK there's nothing at all on Magerøya aside from Nordkapp. Jpatokal 02:55, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
  • Nordkapp is a destination on Magerøya. But you can't sleep there but in Honningsvåg. The Island is not so big. So I think everything could be keept in one article. Should North Cape be a disambig-page? ViMy 07:11, 7 March 2009 (EST)
hmmmm, this one is tricky, my take on this would be to redirect Magerøya as a region to Nordkapp, as that is the more likely search term, and then make Honningvåg and Nordkapp destinations in Finnmark rather than on Magerøya. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:52, 19 March 2009 (EDT)
Sounds OK to me. But I'm not sure if we should have two seperate articles for Nordkapp and Honningsvåg. ViMy 10:36, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
Hmm you might be right, so... which one to choose? since you're the Norwegian, I'm willing to take your advice :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 10:27, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Technicaly Honningsvåg is the town, and Nordkapp an atraction outside of the town. But Nordkapp is a internationaly recognized destination, so I think we should choose this. The reason why I'm sceptical to two articles, is that I think we could got one describing the atraction and another one describing where to sleep.
I'd say keep Magerøya, include the Nordkapp and Honningsvåg information in that article and make both of those redirects to it. It seems to me the island, rather than the town, is the destination.
North Cape is a separate problem, probably needs to be a disambig page. Pashley 05:43, 7 May 2009 (EDT)
Or keep Nordkapp if that's the best-known name, make Magerøya and Honningsvåg redirect there. But let's do something. This vfd has been around for months; it needs to be closed. Pashley 05:30, 8 August 2009 (EDT)

June 2009

Osun-Osogbo Sacred Grove

  • Not a valid article - Could it be redirected to Osun or Osogbo as an attraction? - Huttite 23:48, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
It's a UNESCO site and should be kept as a redirect. Osobgo appears to be the nearest city of any size. Jpatokal 01:54, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Cruising the Baltic Sea

  • Delete. I don't see any reason to split this type of information out from our destination guides. Also, much of the article appears to be a copyright violation [1]. --Peter Talk 20:32, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
    • Hmm, but we don't really have an article on the Baltic Sea. That title currently redirects to Baltic States, which you linked, but the sea borders other countries as well. Of course, if it's a copyvio... LtPowers 20:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep, for time being. I actually told the user to try his hand at creating this instead of his original attempt at "Baltic Sea", which is clearly a no-no. Jpatokal 23:15, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
  • There is no copyright violation although some of the stuff was research elsewhere the sentences are my own. Baltic states is only 3 small states and the cruises seldom stop at any of them. The current redirect to baltic states from baltic sea actually makes no sense in my estimation since it is based only one the word being the same so far as I can tell. Baltic states is only a minor destination of three countries and have very little tourist value while the Baltic Seas cruises are quite popular and getting more so. You guys can, of course, do whatever you want. My intent is to provide a resource that can be used to springboard into other articles on the site and easy reference for a person going on the cruise. Of course there are many cruises and they don't all hit the same ports so the general nature is to provide references to all possible ports for the user. --DaleDe 01:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
Just for the record, the two times I have checked, I get exact matches for copyrighted text (this last time: "sea temperature which, in the late spring is dependent upon the melting of the Winter"). My personal experience has been that cruises on the Baltic Sea that do not feature stops in the Baltic States rarely refer to the sea's name at all. Whenever I've seen "Baltic Cruises" or something of that sort, there is at least a stop in Riga. But my point above is really about content—there's no overwhelming amount of travel content that needs to be split out of the guides.
All that said, I disagree with Jani—I think it would be perfectly acceptable to have a Baltic Sea region article. But the copyvio text has to go. --Peter Talk 02:30, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
Perfectly acceptable doesn't (to me) convey the gist of Wikitravel:Bodies of water. While I know there have been numerous discussions on this, so far the policy still reads that a destination guide (which includes a region guide, in my understanding) on a body of water is not acceptable. --inas 02:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
That would contradict my reading of Wikitravel:Bodies_of_water#Regions. The point of that policy is that we don't create articles to write about the bodies of water, and that is not what Dale has set out to do. --Peter Talk 02:52, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
I've been reading it as we don't make articles about bodies of water unless that's the natural name for the region in which they are located. LtPowers 10:44, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
This is beside the point -- in this particular case, it's quite obvious that "Baltic Sea" is not a sensible or necessary region grouping, since a) the countries around are dissimilar (compare, say, Kaliningrad and Denmark) and b) all the countries around it are already slotted in elsewhere.
However, I do agree with the original creator that the Baltic Sea is much larger than the three Baltic states, and that many cruises on that body of water don't even visit them. Eg. of the 7 cruises listed at [2] (#1 hit on Google for "baltic sea cruises"), only two actually stop in any of the Baltics. Jpatokal 13:13, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

Mar Menor

Presumably should be merged into Murcia (region)? Jpatokal 01:13, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

  • Merge - as suggested by Jani, based on the policy on bodies of water. Tarr3n

July 2009

Omkareshwar

A Hindu temple, all text copied from the Wikipedia article. ChubbyWimbus 15:21, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

  • Keep. I reverted it to the previous version, which isn't a copyvio. It's been up for VfD before, with this resolution. - Dguillaime 21:25, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
It seems the previous discussion did not quite resolve the issue of whether or not this destination should be redirected to the island or city name... I don't suppose anyone knows anything more now? ChubbyWimbus 21:58, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

"Rhino Camp"

If this is a real destination, it should be redirected to simply Rhino Camp and then delete this page. ChubbyWimbus 20:50, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

Chinatown

This seems like a useless disambiguation. Does Wikitravel really aim to list EVERY Chinatown in the world? ChubbyWimbus 19:22, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

No, but we should certainly list the ones for which we have articles. =) LtPowers 20:08, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. It's an odd disambiguation, but better to have the links than not, both for the odd search and possibly for our own SEO. And actually, this one is a borderline travel topic. --Peter Talk 20:53, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. The question here is whether this is a true disambiguation, or whether it is just the start of a list of attractions of a particular type. If it is just a list, which I think it inevitably will be, is it one of true interest to travellers, or is it just a Wikipedia style obsessive list making type of list? --inas 21:37, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
  • I think Inas is right, and Wikipedia already has a list. See here [3]. Our "Chinatown" page is definitely moving to mirror the Wikipedia page as articles grow and are added (I added some myself to see what it would look like prior to the Wikipedia search). As far as helping the traveller goes, maybe we should give the travellers a little credit. Someone searching for a Chinatown would likely put the city in the search with it. If they don't, and they are just searching in the cosmos for any old Chinatown then I would question the seriousness of their travel plans. If it were made into a travel topic, then what sort of information would we add to make it useful? The name "Chinatown" is probably as good of a description as any. ChubbyWimbus 01:01, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
The wp list contains loads of travel-irrelevant junk. (I've heard rumors that a Baltimore Chinatown did at one time exist, but I'm skeptical of even that.) The current page is more useful (and interesting), since it only links to Chinatowns that we actually cover.
Our policy on disambiguation pages gives When destinations share identical names as one of the three cases when such pages can be used. This is clearly such a case—Chinatown is place in NYC as well as a place in Chicago, D.C., etc. I don't see any reason to delete it—a coherent collection of blue links like that may actually raise our search engine profile with people doing vague google searches for "chinatown". --Peter Talk 05:08, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
As long as we keep it to articles that we actually have, rather than any city that could be said to have a Chinatown, I think this disambiguation page is necessary and useful, just like Downtown. LtPowers 10:06, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
I can't believe Wikitravel has a Downtown disambiguation. A little embarrassing... Even the small town I am from has a "downtown" area. That's about as useful as creating a disambiguation page for McDonalds and listing every city with a McDonalds. So the real rationale for having these pages is to get Wikitravel on Google? I don't really consider them to be "destinations with the same name" as NYC and Chicago do not have the same name, and certainly "Downtown" is not a "destination". I agree that the pages aren't hurting anything, but they don't seem useful either. ChubbyWimbus 17:50, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
I agree. The downtown article is definitely useless, and verging on plain silly.
The suggestion of limiting entries on a disamb page to geographies for which we have an article isn't current policy or practice for disamb pages. If we are going to make a list of Chinatown's, then we should at least aim to be fairly comprehensive. --inas 20:21, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I think districts are a special case. Yeah, we list redlinks for every community with a particular name on most disambiguation pages, but Chinatown and Downtown are clearly going to be districts; I see no reason we can't restrict those to just the ones for which we have articles. LtPowers 21:01, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
Should we then add all of the districts titled with "East", "North", "South", and "West" to those disambiguation pages? Should "Uptown" get it's own disambiguation? What about "San"? These sorts of disambiguations just seem ridiculous. Travellers shouldn't need babied to such an extent that we create disambiguation pages for non-destinations. Just because someone types "ass" into the search, doesn't mean we need to create a disambiguation page to help them find Assisi.
Also, how do we distinguish which we "have articles" for? For example (going back to the Chinatown article): the Philippines entry I added is not Manila/Chinatown however, the page says it's the Chinatown of Manila. The Japan entries are just links to the city pages, because these cities are not large enough for districts, but they have Chinatowns (and they're quite famous). Is this supposed to be a disambiguation page just to list Wikitravel's travel breakdown (aka: city/Chinatown) or is it a list of actual Chinatowns? I feel like you are suggesting just adding the designated Wikitravel category breakdowns, but that seems rather arbitrary, because we would then need to delete all the Japan entries and the Philippines entry. ChubbyWimbus 21:45, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I'd be interested in your reasoning here. For example Sydney has a Sydney/Chinatown article. This looks like it is going to change to Sydney/City South. However, Sydney still has and will have always have a Chinatown district [4], regardless of how we choose to district the city on WT. If this article is a disamb, we aim to direct people searching for Chinatown to the appropriate district on WT. Assuming we want a list, why would we want the list to be less than comprehensive? --inas 21:23, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I didn't read LtPowers as saying that only articles called 'Chinatown' would be included on Chinatown. We have coverage for Sydney's Chinatown, whether it's on Sydney/Chinatown or Sydney/City South, so it would belong on the page. In any event, I think again it's more useful to think of this page as partly a travel topic as well. Chinatowns tell an interesting story about the Chinese immigrant experience, one that can be quite interesting to a cultural anthropologist. The more Chinatowns I've seen, the more interesting I find the next one. Gorilla Jones 21:58, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I know this is under Chinatown, but concerning Downtown, it would have to work the same way, but that list would be insanely long! Otherwise, as stated for the Chinatown, it simply becomes an archive of Wikitravel category breakdowns rather than a complete list of cities with "downtowns". I don't see how either of them could be used. Although I don't necessarily feel that Chinatown is a "destination", someone is much more likely to use that page than the "Downtown" page.
I certainly don't want to put words into LtPowers keyboard, but As long as we keep it to articles that we actually have, rather than any city that could be said to have a Chinatown, sounds like it would exclude Sydney's Chinatown if there wasn't actually an article for it.
I agree that it could make an interesting cultural travel topic. This assumes that someone is going to come along at take it on. As I (and others) have said before, travel topics work well when someone takes on the initial work of getting them over the usable hurdle, otherwise they will more than likely languish and do the site a disservice.
And yes, obviously none of this reasoning applies to downtown. --inas 22:30, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
Agreed about Downtown. I'd vote 'delete' on that. Gorilla Jones 23:03, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
Since this could be converted into a travel topic, I suppose I will revoke my objections against Chinatown. ChubbyWimbus 00:04, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. Completely valid disambiguation page or even a travel topic, if curated attentively. Gorilla Jones 18:09, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. Since it hasn't been receiving attentive curation, it's less useful than simply searching for "Chinatown". If an enterprising user comes along and decides to make it a true travel topic, they can recreate the page. - Dguillaime 14:22, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. The given reason for nomination, in my opinion, is completely ridiculous. --GnarlyLikeWhoa 19:21, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
Is that a substantive objection? I can see a line reasoning why we would want to build lists of Chinatowns around the world, and I can see a line of reasoning why we would benefit from a travel topic on Chinatowns and how they evolved, and where they are, and I can see a line of reasoning why having an index article to articles we have is a good idea. We don't quite know which one of these the article is trying to be, but there is some logic behind each of them. There is also a line of reasoning against each one. Building lists is best left for Wikipedia obsessives, we don't need it here. Having a travel topic as a long term stub detracts value from the site. There are a limited amount of resources, and an infinite number of travel topics are possible - we can't keep them all. If someone can't push them into usable articles then they should be deleted until someone is willing to step up. Having index articles as disambiguation article is a good idea, but when the name is so generic, it has little value to guide the traveller.
Which of these lines of reasoning do you consider to be "ridiculous", in your opinion? --inas 20:12, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
Inas, your comment doesn't make any sense. I considered ridiculous the reason given for the nomination. I agree there are many many different reasons for keeping it, including all the reasons you gave.
Do you understand how it may be baffling for me to ingest that last question? I didn't consider any of those reasons you gave to be ridiculous, only the thinking that we can't gather all the Chinatowns in the world. As I've stated on this site recently, this should be the most informative and inclusive site on the internet. To have all the information, or not have all the information, that is the question.
Simply deleting an article because it doesn't have all the Chinatowns in the world is not good reasoning.
In addition, I wasn't aware I even had to give a reason for my vote. If I do, sorry! Maybe I should have consulted you before I cast my vote for Obama.--GnarlyLikeWhoa 12:27, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
It does state above that commments should come with reasons under the "Commenting" header. My argument was not that it should be deleted because they are not all listed; I was questioning whether or not the list itself was useful. Also, once it was mentioned as a travel topic, I had asked what people suggested could be added to make it an informative travel topic. Both have been addressed to varying degrees. The comments may be difficult to follow, because upon mention of "Downtown" as an article, many of my comments (and others) were directed at that. Anyways, as a travel topic it has potential to be interesting, but I do question whether someone will actually make it a travel topic or if it will just remain a list. ChubbyWimbus 15:47, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
Gnarly - the votes for deletion page, is misleading, because it isn't actually just a vote, we are trying to reach a consensus one way or another. The only way that will work is if you try to convince others of your arguments, and you are willing, in turn, to be convinced by them. Sometimes, when the overwhelming sentiment goes one way, or you are convinced by someone else's arguments, there is not much use for reasons - they are apparent. But this one is a bit controversial, so substantive arguments and an effort to understand the other points of view get us closer to a consensus.
And your question To have all the information, or not have all the information, is right on the money IMO. I'm certainly in favor of not having all the information. Exhaustive lists is not what I think WT is about. -inas 19:17, 30 July 2009 (EDT)


Wikitravel:Cultural Expedition

I am bringing this up because of postings on the talk page that were rather unenthusiastic (and posted years ago). Even if it is kept, perhaps calling attention to it here will at least get some other opinions about whether this is a dead idea (which then should be deleted) or whether it is a good idea that just needs more attention. ChubbyWimbus 21:27, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

Even if we do declare it dead, I would recommend simply "deactivating" it rather than deleting the content. We can list it on Wikitravel:Expeditions as defunct or inactive. LtPowers 10:16, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
Delete. I'm not yet a card-carrying member of the everything on the wiki muct be kept for posterity club. This expedition has had no significant updates since it was created, no activity on the actual expedition. It never took off, was probably never a good idea, has no useful content, and we should blow it away, and move on. --inas 00:07, 29 July 2009 (EDT)


Downtown

Please see the discussion which began above under #Chinatown.

  • Delete - Ridiculous. Embarrassing. Texugo 23:43, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete - Indeed --inas 23:50, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete - I think I already layed out my reasons in the Chinatown discussion. ChubbyWimbus 00:04, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete, as above. Gorilla Jones 00:50, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete, for the sole reason that it looks silly. --Peter Talk 00:59, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete - Nonsense. --Jtesla16 07:01, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete - no wait, I'm gonna ad every single conceivable major city we have on wikitravel, and a few extra to the list... --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:43, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. If our articles were titled Downtown (Pittsburgh) instead of Pittsburgh/Downtown, would the need for this page be clearer? LtPowers 13:39, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
I think the issue is that "downtown" is part of most cities, and the destination is still Pittsburgh. It's not the same as a redirecting the Taj Mahal to Agra. "Downtown" is quite an abstract sort of destination; typically just the biggest concentration of shops, theaters, bars, etc. in a city/town. If someone is planning a trip to Pittsburgh, I imagine it would lead them to search for Pittsburgh. I just can't fathom that a traveller would simply want to go "downtown" without already knowing the city they will be in or travel to. If you wanted to go "downtown", would you really look over this list and say to yourself: Pittsburgh, Cairo, or Bangkok? It's just too farfetched to imagine that someone would say "I'm going downtown." and then hop on a plane to Cairo. I am curious to know what situation you think someone could use this for? ChubbyWimbus 16:07, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
I just don't like to assume something has no use, when it's doing little harm and fits our guidelines. LtPowers 17:11, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
The district "Downtown" makes no sense without the Pittsburgh. Downtown is a generic name for a city centre, and we should not be attempting to disambiguate it to a geography. Downtown, City, Town, CBD, are all generic names for the central area of cities, and they make no sense without the location qualifier. --inas 19:09, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. No value. - Dguillaime 14:22, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. Heh, I added to the list way back when. Hoo, that's embarasing... I see no point in it, especially with more and more cities getting divided up into districts. PerryPlanet Talk 16:55, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. Really, I don't see what the big deal is. It's just a disambiguation page, though not complete I don't think it should just be outright eliminated.
  • Delete. This is clearly too broad a term to merit its own article, and it serves no use to the traveler. ChubbyWimbus states the case quite well above. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:10, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. Too broad -- most every place has a downtown. -- Colin 17:17, 30 July 2009 (EDT)


Amusements

Did you know that portable CD players let you listen to CDs that you buy while you're traveling? That books are a great source of entertainment while traveling? This travel topic stub, created and last expanded in July '08, has that wisdom and more. Gorilla Jones 23:50, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

  • Delete Redirect per Inas. No useful content, abandoned travel topic, which probably couldn't sustain a good article even with attention. I can't think of any good redirects (Wikitravel:Attraction listings would be a bit of a stretch). --Peter Talk 00:10, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Merge and Redirect to Packing list. Good idea to bear remember that book and mp3 player when packing. Would only see the entire article taking up one line there, though. Happy to do the hacking. --inas 00:13, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete I think the title "Amusements" is too ambiguous to make it a redirect. "Amusements" doesn't bring to mind "packing list" in my opinion. ChubbyWimbus 00:35, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
The info currently in the article will currently fit in Packing list, but you may be right that the travel topic name itself cannot be redeemed. Let me have a go at the merge/redirect, just to preserve the info, and then see what you think. --inas 17:01, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
For me it seems more appropriate to redirect to Wikitravel:Where to stick it? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 15:35, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
A redirect from the main namespace to the Wikitravel namespace? The cheat shortcuts we have are bad enough at the moment, but we shouldn't redirect travel topics that way. --inas 18:58, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
All the info is relocated. If anybody finds the small stub of a redirect offensive, speak again. I admit it isn't the best of redirect names, but to keep our history, acknowledgements, etc in place, I think it is best that the redirect points where the info went. --inas 00:07, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
With both of these redirects, I definitely see how it can fit into them once they are suggested, but I am still wondering if it is not better deleted, since it's rather ambiguous? ChubbyWimbus 00:13, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
I think it is a highly unlikely search term. The only reason I can see for retention is the simply the general philosophy that we should keep the history, and try not to break any permanent links that may exist to the articles. --inas 01:02, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
I agree with Texugo — unless we really believe that someone is going to search for "Amusements" when they were trying to find "Packing list", we should not have a redirect. If you kept the original contributor's phrasing during the merge, I'd be happy to write "Bring a book and perhaps a CD player" and offer it up myself. Gorilla Jones 08:12, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
Okay, I've given my best reasons for retaining a somewhat pathetic article. There was no phrasing retained. Blow it away.. --inas 08:17, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Munnar-kodaikanal and Munnar- Kodaikanal route

There are 3 pages with almost the same information. Keep Munnar-Kodaikanal Delete Munnar-kodaikanal Delete Munnar-Kodaikanal route

The first one has all the links to it and the most recent change. The second and third pages are orphans. Apart from the recent addition to the first page the information on all three pages appears to be identical. Suggest deleting the second and third.Chris1515 18:00, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

August 2009

SNUBA

Unlikely to merit its own travel article.

  • Merge and redirect to Scuba diving. Texugo 23:51, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
  • A lot of work is being done on this page right now. I'd say inform the user and/or wait until that user has finished editing before making any moves. ChubbyWimbus 03:46, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
I agree. Best to give active new users a chance to make their contributions before making a decision. --Peter Talk 14:43, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
  • I lean toward keep since there seems to be quite a bit of info, enough for an independent article. However, I would not object strongly to merging instead. I would like to see more explanation: how does SNUBA work? What are the advantages over normal snorkeling? Can you SNUBA on your own, or does it require expert guidance? What depth range does it apply for? etc. Pashley 09:49, 6 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. I agree with Pashley. --inas 19:03, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Pashley, if you read what is there, it is evident that the airtank stays above on a boat and you have a 7 meter tether. I still feel very strongly about a merge/delete, especially since this is a single company promoting their service, and it's not all that terribly unique in my opinion. Texugo 23:25, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

  • Merge into Scuba diving. What is relevant to say about Snuba already exists in this article, and can easily be condensed into a 1 or 2 paragraph section, I don't see a need to wait and breed more content into the wrong place, in this case. All that's notable about it is lack of carrying a tank on your back, lack of freedom since you're tied to a 7 meter cord, and that you don't need to be certified as a diver. I can't see anything else that distinguishes it enough to make it worth repeating all the similarities with scuba and snorkeling. Listing where it's offered, IMO, is not necessary, as I can't picture anyone planning a trip based on wanting to Snuba, it's simply something to point out as an option if you ever come across it. And per Texugo, we don't allow articles for companies – cacahuate talk 18:47, 7 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep Snuba is a completetly unique form of diving that has taken the unregulated form of diving called Hookah diving and applied standards and proceedures to it. Throughout the world there are operators that try to pass off hookah diving as a safe alternative to scuba diving. These operations are not licensed, insured, Do not provide professional instructors and are responsible for promoting irresponsible diving practices (ie. not recieving proper training

There are many factors that make Snuba unique from scuba diving. 1. The raft itself acts as a diving platform, meaning people that are already nervous about their first experience diving are not just bobbing around in the ocean. 2. The raft is highly visible and provides a measure of safety to prevent against boat traffic accidents. 3. The limited mobility of the 7 meter hose prevents descending deeper than 7 meters, prevents people from straying off and not following instruction, virtually eliminates the problems of Decompression Sickness "the bends" as the depth of 7m for a maximum time of 25 minutes is not deep or long enough to absorb enough nitrogen to produce enough bubbles in the blood to cause the bends (not one case of bends through SNUBA in over 20 years). 4. No certification - yes, uncertified divers can try DSD scuba courses. However, there are many people that have an unnecessay aversion to diving through stereotypes and myths. After experiencing a truly soft approach to diving they are more likely to feel differently about scuba and proceed or allow children to proceed with scuba diving. 5. No tanks to wear - just as innovative as scuba was to those who wanted more freedom, removing the tanks allows another entire range of participants to try diving. Many people have been given the chance to dive that never would have if the option was not available. The handicapped, obese, elderly, children, people with weak knees / backs. 6. Overall attention to safety - soft weights instead of hard to prevent injuries out of the water and damage to coral should a weightbelt be dropped. Padding on the underside of the raft to prevent head injuries, harness attachment to prevent accidental regulator removal underwater, specialized training in addition to scuba diving theory and training. 7. Planning a trip - you would not believe the number of "family men" that have not been able to scuba dive for years as they respect their wifes belief that scuba is dangerous. There are many such people that are either aware of Snuba or seek out Snuba to provide an avenue to opening their family up to the wonders of diving. Many people want to scuba, but are put off by the cost of training and time involved, especially if they live in an area where there is no diving or only recieve limited holiday every year. Snuba gives them the chance to dive and tehy will seek it out. 8. Scuba is not snuba plain and simple. Other than the tanks and the regulator everything is presented and done in a different manner to provide a unique experience that can be translated into education of the ocean and environment, a chance to bring someone into scuba that previously would not have, and provide memories for a lifetime.

I am writing this as a PADI Open Water Scuba Instructor and also a Snuba Guide. From my position as a professional in both areas - they are different and equally noteworthy as holiday activities that should be sought to participate in. Just as scuba and snorkeling are different - Snuba is a seperate regulated activity that has gained quite a lot of recognition in America and Japan as such. With continued development and exposure as a holiday activity it is hoped that more people will become educated about our coral reefs. Some people will go on to become licensed scuba divers, some will remain snorkellers and some will seek out a repeat SNUBA adventure on their next holiday.

Lastly, according to the Goals and non-Goals section of Wikitravel.org this article would be useful for: - travellers still planning - what activites to do (when seeing Snuba as an available activity in a destination it will allow them to read more about the activity within Wikitravel.org without having to exit to try to find possibly false or misleading information) - Inclusion in other travel guides as the information for all contacts and destinations is up to date. - For travellers on the road - for anyone who sees a brochure or hears from other travellers about Snuba it will give them a source of information to research. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AlohaMatt (talkcontribs)

  • Looks to me (non-expert, I only snorkel) like the article should be kept, re-titled, and generalised to cover all "hookah diving". SNUBA is just one company's version; cover that too. but with less touting of that company's service. Pashley 05:54, 8 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Merge & delete. My mind's open, since I don't totally understand what this is (wikipedia:Snuba was not helpful, since it is an unsourced promotional piece...). But our Wikitravel:Deletion policy is pretty clear—no articles for individual businesses. Should this be merged into a Surface supplied diving/Hooka diving article, or just back into the Scuba diving article, I'm not sure. It clearly will have to be both reduced and rewritten to avoid being an advertisement. And Matt, your vfd comment reads like an advert—please read the deletion policy, and explain (succinctly) why your page qualifies for an article. --Peter Talk 11:41, 8 August 2009 (EDT)
    • A merge and delete would interfere with the attribution history of the text, wouldn't it? LtPowers 13:25, 8 August 2009 (EDT)
Not hardly. It's certainly not policy to keep redirects from articles for businesses (the deletion policy states the opposite), and we don't have any consensus behind keeping them around to preserve attribution history. Even if we did, the vfd discussion clearly shows who the author of the article was, and therefore where the content came from in a potential merge. --Peter Talk 10:24, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
The similarities with Scuba are far to vast for this to warrant a separate article, even if there were multiple companies offering it. It will fit perfectly as a paragraph or two in Scuba diving. If somehow enough non-fluffy and non-repetitive content is added at some point, we could assess then if it needs to be split out for size reasons. But it isn't even close to that now – cacahuate talk 17:57, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
Firstly, I don't think the similarities with Scuba are sufficient to merge the two. Scuba requires proper training and qualifications. If you are not interested or have the time for this, then you won't read the Scuba article, but may still well do this stuff. There is a very different demographic who would be interested in this. I think we just need to find the right article title if we think SNUBA is too linked to one commercial organisation. We just call the article that, and then reference the commercial organisation within the article if required, and de-tout the article. --inas 02:19, 12 August 2009 (EDT)
Note: Wikipedia's Snuba article has been improved; while the name "Snuba" is trademarked and the process is patented, it does seem to be growing as a vacation activity. LtPowers 08:03, 12 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. Snuba has introduced more non-divers to scuba diving than any other organized and affiliated effort. And, was done so inadvertently. Snuba does not offer scuba or is promoted as an alternative to scuba. The name and program is proprietary and unique only to Snuba. If this page were to be considered for merging with a generic category it would be "snorkeling" or "water activities." Snuba is not scuba. The Snuba market and programs are directly specifically at non-divers and snorkelers. I know this first hand. The dive industry should embrace any efforts to promote Snuba. 69.224.222.179 18:47, 12 August 2009 (EDT)
The name and program are as proprietary and unique to Snuba as KFC's recipe is to KFC. We are not the dive industry and we have a policy against promoting commercial enterprises. Texugo 03:06, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
The issue is not whether SNUBA is promoting a commercial company, but if having an article on it is of interest and benefit to the traveller. We don't exclude the possibility of commercial promotion - after all every private enterprise we list has that possibility - we just put it behind the priority of giving benefit to the traveller. If we were wikifood, KFC would probably at least rate a mention. --inas 06:55, 17 August 2009 (EDT)

La Candelaria

A standalone district article for the otherwise-undistrictified Bogotá article.

La Candelaria is Bogotá's primary tourist destination, the location of many hotels and hostels and of most of the city's historical and cultural attractions. This is a travel website, and La Candelaria is Bogotá's primary tourism travel destination. In contrast, Bogotá in general is primarily a business travel destination. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.27.235.247 (talkcontribs)
  • Merge & redirect. The article definitely should not (and may not) be deleted per Wikitravel:Deletion policy#Deleting_vs._redirecting. I think we should eventually district this city of 8 million, and La Candelaria might make for a good, self-sufficient article, but a districts discussion needs to happen first. See Talk:Bogotá There is not a lot of content in either this article, or the main Bogotá article, so a merge should be fine for right now. --Peter Talk 19:34, 7 August 2009 (EDT)
Looks to me like Peter has it right. Merge & redirect. Pashley 21:58, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

I'd like to add that La Candelaria is qualitatively different from the rest of Bogota, which is known as a business city, the capital of a narcostate, etc. In contrast, La Candelaria is a colonial, artsy neighborhood. Merging it into the rest of Bogotá wouldn't do it justice.

No one is disagreeing with you on the notability of the neighborhood. The point is that a districts discussion is needed before district articles should be created. Ad hoc schemes create real messes, that are really hard to clean up—take a look at how awful this one got. If and when we do improve the Bolivia article enough, and complete a districts proposal on the talk page, then we can start creating district articles, and the content you created for La Candelaria will not at all be lost—it will be easy to use it as a base for a new district article. --Peter Talk 00:54, 20 August 2009 (EDT)

Image:4Vancouver 2010 logo.svg.png

  • Delete. While I would love to have this image on our Vancouver 2010 page, our current image policy makes no provisions for fair use. LtPowers 18:35, 8 August 2009 (EDT)

Six days hiking on Moskenesøy

  • Delete. The trail description is not exact enough. To follow this route you need a detailed map, and a key to the cabin - you can not get either key or map nearby. It is a diffcult and long route, there are better options in the same area. Tofola 09:14, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
Why wouldn't we just add this info to the article, and let the traveller decide? --inas 19:20, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
Keep Yes, the information is currently insufficient, but it has enough of a layout to allow someone to add to it. If you have more information about this hike, like where to get the key and such, then why not add it? ChubbyWimbus 04:04, 12 August 2009 (EDT)

Nashik_online_marketing

  • Delete, it's spam. Thx, jan 05:07, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Speedied --inas 07:45, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

XianGaoXinQu

Not sure this is even worth a redirect.

  • Delete - Texugo 09:48, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. I get 82 hits for it on Google, and I'm anyway not sure what it is. Might be a blogger trying to boost his SEO? --Peter Talk 16:36, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Speedied. Jpatokal 23:42, 11 August 2009 (EDT)

McGee Creek

This appears to be nothing but a creek or trailhead named after a creek near Bishop, California. Any useful information, if there were any, should go in that article. I might suggest a redirect to McGee Creek State Park in Oklahoma, if there were such an article. I don't think redirecting it to Bishop makes any sense given the "McGee+Creek&btnG=Search Google results I got.

  • Delete or Redirect to Antlers, the nearest town to the OK state park for which we have an article, and add a listing to that town's Get Out section. Texugo 02:54, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
  • The place in California is a real destination, but it is small. I'd suggest a disambig page so the State Park in OK is reachable. The place in California should probably be folded in to Tom's Place. In other news, I'll go through the Mono County article and remove a bunch of too-small destinations. -- Colin 12:23, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
It is a community? I could find any evidence on Google, Google Maps, or Wikipedia. Texugo 23:34, 17 August 2009 (EDT)

Sakamoto

This is a redirect to Mount Hiei, but Sakamoto is a district name in various cities, and if the redirect is made, it should redirect to Otsu instead. I have not done any great amount of research on how many cities have districts named "Sakamoto", but I think it may be better off deleted. ChubbyWimbus 20:52, 17 August 2009 (EDT)

Keep. Again, I think you're focusing too much on the random lines drawn by bureaucrats and ignoring the actual geography on the ground. It's 12 train stops and 30 min from Otsu to Sakamoto, they are in no rational sense the same town. Hiei and Sakamoto, on the other hand, are intimately intertwined geographically and historically, and best covered in the same article.
If there really are other notable places called "Sakamoto", the current redirect can be changed into a disambig, but [5] only lists an obscure village in Kumamoto. Jpatokal 23:00, 18 August 2009 (EDT)

Albany Highway

This itinerary was created over two years ago, has not been substantially modified, and only contains the useful advice not to exceed the speed limit.

  • Delete. In the unlikely event that content should ever be developed for this route, the article can be recreated. This route is not generally considered a touring route, rather it is an access road. The equivalent information can be better placed by using the routebox project. --inas 19:47, 18 August 2009 (EDT)

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