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Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

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Revision as of 04:05, 11 June 2006 by Deepinlife (Talk | contribs)

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The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'. Also, if you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Bug reports page instead.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

Archives

Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

Stuff that's been moved:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Checklist for Wikitravellers on the road?

Is there anywhere a list of suggestions for someone on a trip who wants to maximize the usefulness of their experience to this site? If not, would it be worthwile to create such a list. I'm thinking of something like:

  1. Does the existing description in "Get In" fit with your experience of arriving? If there is no description of your mode of travel, start one. What was unusual about the experience that other people should know?
  2. Did you stay in a hotel or other paid accommodation? If so, would you recommend it to others? If so, please add it to "Sleep". If not, please delete it from "Sleep" if it's there, but explain why in the Talk page.

Etc. Jonboy 09:51, 20 Feb 2006 (EST)

I just saw this for the first time for some reason. Jonboy, this is a great idea. I don't have a good name for it... maybe Wikitravel:Field research checklist? --Evan 11:28, 10 April 2006 (EDT)


I have some ideas here that are related to this. — Ravikiran 14:43, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

Arabic and Hindi Wikitravel

Even though I dont speak the languages i was wondering about how to get it up and running? Enlil Ninlil 00:47, 22 Feb 2006 (EST)

Wikitravel:How to start a new language version Jpatokal 01:52, 22 Feb 2006 (EST)

Watching all the articles within a region

I think that this question has been asked a while ago, but anyway...

Now that we have the really good Breadcrumb navigation (IsIn) working, is it possible to use this to "watch" all the articles within a region eg. Sicily? DanielC 08:13, 23 February 2006 (EST)


Disclaimers?

1. Why does the Disclaimers link at the bottom of every page go to an Old Bug Reports page? (Is this a mistake?)

2. Do we need a Disclaimer page? (Wikipedia has one, several actually.)

--Rogerhc 01:35, 6 March 2006 (EST)

If we don't have a real Disclaimers page, how about redirecting Wikitravel:General disclaimer to Wikitravel:Terms of use instead? That's at least a little closer-to-topic than the bug-reports page. - Todd VerBeek 12:36, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

Terms of Service?

Do we need any kind of Terms of Service page? (Wikipedia seems to feel they don't need that although they do have drafts that seem to end up concluding, rightly or wrongly, that there is no service and therefore no terms of service because there is no formal service relationship, thus no agreement or terms.)

--Rogerhc 01:35, 6 March 2006 (EST)

We have a Wikitravel:Terms of use. Is that about what you were looking for? --Evan 07:19, 6 March 2006 (EST)
Yes, thank you Evan. --Rogerhc 00:00, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

Oregon Contributor Activity

There seems to be quite a number of newbie contributors in Oregon for some reason. If you see anyone contributing there, check it out because they often seem to need some guidance. -- Colin 13:30, 10 March 2006 (EST)

One of them wrote me and said
As an assignment for a business class at Oregon State my classmates
and I are required to update a public wiki with "valuable contributions."
so that explains that. -- Colin 22:15, 10 March 2006 (EST)
There has been a huge rush of contributions this afternoon (16 March) that appear to be from this group. Maple Canyon, Waldo Lake, Great glen way, and a ton of images. A lot of the images appear to be copyvios, but I've run out of time to keep tracking them down so anyone who has a chance to look into them it would be much appreciated.
To the contributors: your contributions are much appreciated and very valuable additions. The concerns are that they are not copyright violations (see Wikitravel:Image policy), that they are valid article topics (see Wikitravel:What is an article?), and to a lesser extent that they are formatted correctly (see Wikitravel:Manual of style). -- Ryan 20:57, 16 March 2006 (EST)
Also to the contributors: It would also be a good idea to pay attention to the Wikitravel:Article templates applicable to what you're writing, so that your contributions are indeed "valuable." (I'd bet that that Oregon State instructor is aware of the templates -- or soon will be.) Using the templates to begin with will save some rewriting later that may simply wipe your contribution out, with a possibly similar wipeout on your grade... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 22:30, 16 March 2006 (EST)

Logo/Icon

I see the new logo's been put into place, and it looks nice. But I'm still seeing ye olde globe-and-arrow icon as the favicon for the site (the little icon that shows up in the URL field, "favorites" listing, and/or title bar of better web browsers). I'd be happy to make a favicon.ico file, but obviously I can't update it on the site myself. Todd VerBeek 22:11, 18 March 2006 (EST)

If you take a look at Image:Compass star emblem coolvetica logo.png and Image:Treatment.png I think Mark has actually already created an image suitable for a favicon, but I'm not sure what the status for getting it on the site is -- rumor has it that there's an entirely new skin in the works that uses the new logos, but either Evan or Mark would probably be the only ones who could provide an update. -- Ryan 04:36, 19 March 2006 (EST)
Thanks for the reminder; I've got the new icon up now, too. You may have to load http://wikitravel.org/favicon.ico directly in your browser before it realizes that the icon has changed. --Evan 09:09, 19 March 2006 (EST)

Suggestion: Article Improvment Drive

I would support an Article Improvment Drive like the one in Wikipedia. We already have the cotw thing for usable articles, but I would suggest AID would be for Guide and Star articles that need to be perfected. Would anyone like this???????? --Worldtraveller 14:20, 22 March 2006 (EST)

Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week -- Colin 16:42, 22 March 2006 (EST)

Vandal

Alert a vandal is ruining the bahrain and NYC articles! 169.244.143.114 09:38, 31 March 2006 (EST)

Uh, maybe I'm comfused here, but aren't you the vandal in question? If so, I'm amused. Majnoona 09:53, 31 March 2006 (EST)
He was at least partially undoing a vandal's changes, though not always perfectly. I think it was a successful (and moderately amusing) attempt to confuse some of us... -- Colin 10:08, 31 March 2006 (EST)

No maj... i wanted to revert 66 ip sorry i just talked to you on ip 169.244.143.114 09:55, 31 March 2006 (EST)

Whoa Colin nothing like that 169.244.143.114 10:11, 31 March 2006 (EST)

New article type suggestion

I was walking around in Paris today and found a great walking path from central Paris to Chateau de Vincennes in an eastern suburb. My immediate thought was: 'I want to tell other people about this on Wikitravel!' But, as I see it, we don't have any place to put such info...

I therefore suggest that we create a 'Walk'/'Stroll'/(insert better name suggestion here) type of article as a sub-article to cities. The layout could be about the same as Itiniraries and the articles could include photos, recommended stops, etc.

What do you think? Comments, suggestions? -- Jelse 13:20, 1 April 2006 (EST)

I think Itiniraries would already cover that. Or if the walking path is very short, just add it as something to "Do" within the city/district. -- Ilkirk 13:27, 1 April 2006 (EST)
Yeah, "walking tours" are a very nice way to see a city or part of one. I think this fits in nicely with itineraries, since a) it's directed and b) it will have waypoints. Jelse, why don't you get it started, and let's see how it goes? --Evan 13:37, 1 April 2006 (EST)
OK, plunging forward. I started the Walk to Vincennes itinerary. I have limited internet access at present but expect it to grow in the coming weeks. -- Jelse 10:06, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

Retaining users

I've been editing and adding less information than I normally do so I've been welcoming new users instead. I've also been checking how often some users and I've noticed that many travelers seem to contribute for a month or up to three months and then seem to cease activity. Anyhow, my point, or rather my question is this: How do we retain these users? There seems to be the core devotees - Admins and then some lowly users who love WikiTravel, but even with our expansive knowledge of destinations and such we unfortunately don't know everything about Earth. We really do need to retain these users, because they offer key expertise in various regions and cities. How can we inspire them to further contribute to WikiTravel? Sapphire 20:34, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

That's a good but not simple question, because the answer depends on the average profile of Wikitravellers and we don't have a good estimation on that. Maybe we could identify a few categories:
1) People who like to travel and write about it - I guess those make up most of the "regulars" here
2) People who are into Wiki stuff - those normally are into travel/writing too, but also feel comfortable enough to plunge forward into MediaWiki templates, markup etc.
Most people in the categories above have some sort of ideal/belief in the importance of the Wikitravel project as a whole. On the other hand, there are also people who:
3) Just want to welcome visitors to their countries/cities, make some more or less extensive contributions to a couple of articles then leave;
4) Just want to promote their establishments as much as they can;
5) Are curious about the Wiki, insert a link to anywhere then leave
There are probably more, but I'd say that we're less likely to retain users in categories 4 and 5. People in categories 1, 2 and maybe 3 could be more easily retained as long as long as we are able to make them more enthusiastic about Wikitravel - the inspiration you mentioned. I guess, though, that this would require some marketing-like techniques: advertising, rewards and, of course, excellent customer service like our welcome messages :o) Ricardo (Rmx) 21:24, 3 April 2006 (EDT)
As simple a thing as it is, I think the My Talk new message notification will help somewhat because new users will notice their welcome message a little sooner. If they are welcomed, they'll feel included, if they feel included, they'll be a little more involved, so forth and so on. I guess we all need to jump even quicker on the Welcoming party bandwagon... -- Ilkirk 23:18, 3 April 2006 (EDT)
Agree that the new-message notification and similar stroking will help, but in any event, this kind of transient interest is entirely normal, not just on participation-oriented web sites but in Real Life (tm). If you could figure a way to solve this problem, you'd be so busy solving it for for-profit outfits that you wouldn't have time to post here :-), and filthy rich in the bargain. Yes, it would be nice to keep folks longer, but I wouldn't obsess about it. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:03, 4 April 2006 (EDT)
Great conversation here. I guess I have some quick thoughts: first, if people come here, work real hard, and then move on to other projects, I don't want to make them feel bad. I think that's part of the ebb and flow of Internet communities, and it's something we'll have to deal with naturally. That said, we do have a sharp learning curve here, and it seems a shame to lose the contributions of experienced people.
I hope that the docents project picks up steam, since I think that's a great way for people who are working on a single destination or group of destinations to stay interested. I think beefing up our watchlists with RSS and email or IM notification would be nice, too. Finally, an email newsletter might serve as a reminder for users who haven't been back in a while that we still exist and we could use their help. --Evan 10:22, 4 April 2006 (EDT)
I am new to wikitravel and maybe I belong to categorie 3... Writing in WikiTravel was big fun last weekend and I spend a lot of time doing it. It's just like if you get a new toy, you stop playing with all others and concentrate on the new one. But it is totally normal that after a while things will get balanced again. What can be done to motivate users? Ask questions. If you spend hours on an article being not sure, if anyone will ever be interested in, this is not very motivating. I think the talk page would be a good place for a list of open questions. But the Using talk pages does not stress that it is desired to ask questions there. --Flip666 09:16, 10 April 2006 (EDT)
I'm started to read and write about two months ago and my first impression was that I felt a bit overwhelmed but all the formats, frames, navigation etc. (that a good page needs!). I think the main point is that after people brought in their travel knowledge it is about getting part of the wikitravel community. The talk pages and the travellers pub are good points to discuss topics but unexperienced IT people (who are frequent help line callers at their work...) might see it as a hassle (why a { or [ or # and not a normal bracket). I still copy and paiste all codes for formats from the link in my welcome meassage and jump from maj's message in my talk to Evan. My suggestion to make life easier for newbies is:

1. Search function: Now when i write "evan" nothing about Even arrives until i click after the first hit another time below the boxes user, talk etc. People are used to google and may not allways look for destinations

2. Quickbars, codes, shortscuts: Their should be one general document with all basic codes and a short example how it looks like. If I don't have a clue of codes and download the basic codes and you don't need to go everytime you need something back to the help page.

3. Docents: Good idea

4. Feedback: Sapphire and Maj encouraged me with their feedback to continue writing. Especially if you are new here you are unsure if you are welcome and it's ok the way you do it. The welcome message helps to find around

jan 05:08 (EDT), 27 April 2006

Claiming my input

I just created an entry for Avebury, and being conceited, think it's pretty snazzy, but somehow it lost my id somewhere along the line, so I'm not attributed in the history.. any way of 'reclaiming' an article in the history log ? If someone wnats to argue with me, I'd rather they didn't argue with an IP address! --TheBigYin

Since there's no such thing as an articles that's finished, just make sure you're logged in from now on, and put a note in the next edit summary that you're "213.48.98.142". Credit will thus be duly given. - Todd VerBeek 12:06, 6 April 2006 (EDT)
Just FYI, I've been having the same problem lately, on three different computers! (Even after I'm logged in, and my preferences are displayed along the top, it still saves the changes under my IP address.) Thanks for the advice; I'll do the same. -- Haem85 02:53, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
MediaWiki 1.6.x seems to be a lot more aggressive in expiring people's login cookies, and that's caused some bad interactions with our javascript-and-html caching system. An easy work around is to log in with the "remember me" flag set, if you can do that. --Evan 07:28, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
Doesn't seem to help, at least not for me. -- Mark 09:14, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
Ditto. At least the new login page cooperates with Firefox's auto-fill capability, making re-logins less of a hassle. - Todd VerBeek 10:23, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
No, it didn't help for me either. When I first went to the site and had to re-login, I checked the box again, and it still logged me back out. Oh well! -- Haem85 00:14, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

TripAdvisor adds wiki

While writing up this week's Wikipedia Signpost news roundup, I saw that high-profile travel website TripAdvisor has added a wiki called the "Inside Pages" to its site, allowing visitors to write articles about travel destinations and so forth ("TripAdvisor imitates Wikipedia"). They're doing beta testing on U.K. and California information right now; I don't see any obvious notice of the copyright/license terms for the info. Thought you might like to know, and I'd like to know what you think; it's possible we may write more about this in the Signpost next week. -- Catherine)

Hi Catherine, thanks for pointing this out. While it's an interesting development (and the sincerest form of flattery...), Evan and I think there are a couple of important points to keep in mind:
  • Their community features are poor, as well as their personal identity features, and thus the main motivators for people to contribute to a wiki are missing.
  • There doesn't seem to be any participation whatsoever by users in policy, style, or process. We also don't see clearly delineated goals. In other words, there's no feeling of community ownership of the site.
  • We think that our Creative Commons license gives contributors an idealistic goal for creating Open Content guides. TA leaves the license unspecified, and their reputation as a "roach motel" for user contributions suggests that they won't be making any changes along those lines in the near future. --Majnoona 10:49, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

Merchandise

I am interested in buying a wikitravel branded piece of clothing for when I next go backpacking. However there appears to be no link on Wikitravel to anything like this. Therefore,

1) Could we create an easily found page directing people to the Cafepress.com merchandise (they have 25 products with the Wikitavel logo on it) at:http://www.cafepress.com/buy/wikitravel/-/pv_design_details/pg_/c_1/id_8949393/fpt_/opt_

2) Is there anywhere else that sells merchandise related to Wikitravel, if so, could that be listed too.

Thanks, Witty lama 07:33, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

I think people buying Wikitravel merchandise would like to know that the profits go to help Wikitravel, and alas, the commercial/financial/legal backend for this is not yet ready. (This also explains why there's no Donate button anywhere on the site.) Evan & co are working on this but it'll be some time until things are finalized, so I think the "official" merchandise link will have to wait -- in the meantime, plunge forward, make your own or contribute designs! (Time for a Wikitravel:T-shirt design contest?) Jpatokal 08:13, 18 April 2006 (EDT)
I put up the CafePress "store" (zero profit) hoping to get the merchandising started. So I think it is time to start the T-shirt contest now so we can have an official T-shirt before summer. Or a T-shirt of the year contest every spring. I do not know how to set up the financial backend, but it is important just to make Wikitravel more visible on wikitravellers. --elgaard 10:33, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

Drink/Local Beer

I'm a self-admitted beer nerd (and seeking help through ethanol therapy, thank you!) and like to try out local offerings. I recently wrote most of what's currently in San Marcos and added a "local beer" section under drink. I should probably get around to this for Houston and the like. Does anyone see a problem for me adding this to other pages (or have ideas for a better way to work the information in)? I'm not a wine person, though I know that Texas and California have some pretty decent local wines that the traveller might want to know about too, so I guess there could be a more general name for this section, but I can't think of a good one. Jordanmills 21:25, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

This seems to me like perfectly appropriate information to include under "Drink". I've including info about local beers and wines in this section on a few pages. One simple way to do that would be to include a bar-type listing for the brewery's pub or the vineyard's tasting room, if they have one. - Todd VerBeek 21:41, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

Wikitravel ownership

This isn't an announcement board, but as a common gathering spot, I figure it's be a good place to point out a bit of news that might otherwise slip under people's radar: Wikitravel.org is now owned by Internet Brands, and is going to be managed by Evan and Maj - still as an open-content travel guide - as employees. IB also now owns World66, another open-content travel info site. See Wikitravel:Internet Brands for more info about what this means for us, them, and the other them. - Todd VerBeek 12:55, 24 April 2006 (EDT)


Putting wikitravel on ipods - lonelyipod.com

I spent a lot of time in India, where I saw everyone lugging around their heavy travel guides and an ipod, and wondered why nobody had combined the two. Well, I've produced a rough and (hopefully) ready web page that will do just that. I'm looking for feedback and suggestions, but if you just want to use it to make your travels easier, lighter, and cheaper, great! lonelyipod.com is the site. bcnstony 4:13, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

That's an excellent idea! Although I don't own an iPod, I think it would be great to have it working for the other language versions too (couldn't get a zip file for any of the pt: articles). Ricardo (Rmx) 05:59, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
Multi-lingual doesn't work yet because I'm going through XML, and the Special:Export link changes depending on the language. Once I move to SQL this will be solved. bcnstony 13:13, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
Yeah, that's a very good idea. I think the name is probably going to get you in trouble, though. I'd really like to get that kind of thing working on wikitravel.org (see Wikitravel:Offline Reader Expedition). --Evan 09:15, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
Which part of the name? The lonely or the ipod? I don't think apple will care, since if this works people will only want to buy more ipods, and 'Lonely' could be just as easily from Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (in which case the other Apple company would sue me!). bcnstony 13:13, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
The "I think this is good for them" argument doesn't really hold up well in trademark disputes. The courts give the owner of the trademark the right to decide when/where/how it gets used, and actually tends to punish them if they're too lenient. The closest thing to a neutral standard is the "confusion in the marketplace" test, which says that if people might mistake this for an Apple-sanctioned service (or a Lonely Planet service), you lose. I'm not saying you would, but I'm not saying you wouldn't either. - Todd VerBeek 14:36, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

What I'm currently struggling with is how to get the data easily. I can get the info from XML in the /en/Special:Export/city, but that link changes by language (i.e. Spanish is /es/Especial:Export/city). Is it possible to get read access to the database? Or a dump of the database? I read this wasn't available yet, but wanted to see what people thought. bcnstony 13:28, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

Will users be able to read the generated file on other MP3 players such as Creative Zen too? Or is it an iPod-only thing? By the way, Todd seems right about the trademark and the "confusion in the marketplace" argument - maybe you could use lonelypod.com instead - it think still provides a pretty good "mental link" to both LP and iPods and would save yourself from any trouble. Ricardo (Rmx) 15:01, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
I think you guys have a valid point, so I'll look into changing that, though I'll get to it after I put some more work into the code.
As for other players, since iPod's are the dominant device I'm focusing on them right now, but eventually I'd like to see this on anything and everything possible. Most of the hard stuff is going to be handling the dynamic linking within documents. Changing the tags so they are read on other players, such as Zen, or Palms, or phones, or whatever, will (I hope) be fairly straightforward. Eventually I'd like to see that right in the options - the user will choose 3 options
  • What Top level page (i.e. Barcelona, NYC, Kenya, etc.)
  • How deep to follow links (just that page, 1 deep, 2 deep, etc.)
  • What format (iPod, Zen, Palm, Windows CE, Motorolla Phone, etc.)
bcnstony 16:02, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
If you do give it a different name, I'd suggest dropping the "lonely" altogether, because that really does make it sound like it's using Lonely Planet content. That bothers me as a Wikitravel partisan almost as much as it would the LP folks. :) Maybe Podtravel, TravelPlayer, GuidePlayer? - Todd VerBeek 17:43, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

People have suggested I change the name, and for legal and other reasons (see above!) I am changing it. I like the suggestions so far, if anyone has other suggestions, feel free to add them here. My favorite, PodTravel, is sadly already taken.

Also, the site now handles long articles by breaking them up into smaller pieces. This is both easier to read and circumvents iPod's 4000 character limit per file.bcnstony 18:28, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

How about wikipod? Especially if you could generalise it so it handled Wikipedia or others? Pashley 21:02, 1 May 2006 (EDT)

I've been thinking about something like this, but instead a more general application to export wiki to other formats like TeX (and on to PDF), openoffice and msword. This would make it really easy to make a paper travelguide. So far I haven't been really looking into it, but including a export to iPod seems like and interresting feature. Ronald 09:48, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

See vs Do

Hey folks, is there any guideline to help figure out what is "See" and what is "Do"? Would a museum count as see or do? 70.51.81.178 20:40, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Where you can stick it should help. SHC 20:47, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
Rule of thumb: If the main activity there consists of sitting in a vehicle/walking around and looking at things, it's a "See". (This includes all but the most fun museums.) If it includes more involvement than that and/or getting your heart rate up, it's a "Do". - Todd VerBeek 21:00, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
Thanks! Adina 22:18, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
The explanatory paragraphs of the article templates could be helpful too. Ricardo (Rmx) 22:51, 30 April 2006 (EDT)


Moving images to Wikitravel Shared?

Apologies if this has been covered before or is obvious, but: Is there a straightforward way for me to move images (the rights to which I control) from en.wikitravel.org to Wikitravel Shared, so that they can be used conveniently by the other Wikitravels? Or is it necessary to manually re-upload them? I can see justifications for the latter (probably cuts down on concerns about abuse), but being a lazy cuss :-), something easier would be nice. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 22:01, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Wouldn't it? I don't think there's a way to do that now, but it would be nice -- especially for big images. --Evan 00:03, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

City Centres(sic) and Districts

I am interested in people's opinions on cities where the districts are really inner suburbs, with most of the sights concentrated in the centre and it doesn't seems productive to go all the way in creating districts. In this case, an anonymous user created Headingley and Chapel Allerton, which are part of Leeds. I moved these to discrict pages, but I don't feel we should move all the city centre info to a Leeds/City Centre page, as it seems happy enough where it is. Is this acceptable?, and could it be used in a few more cases where the main article could become the de-facto city centre article. -- DanielC 16:50, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

Hi Daniel, I think I responed to this in some of the Leeds 'burbs, but for the record: we only really want districts for huge cities such as Mexico City and New York (city). The other options are "neighborhoods" or stand-alone destinations for actual suburbs. I don't know Leeds well enough to say, but I'm pretty sure it's not Huge, and that folks think of Headingley et al as 'seperate' (ie the Get in sections all say "take a bus from Leeds" whereas I would not say "Take a bus from New York to get to Queens"). Hope this helps! Majnoona 10:47, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

Esperanto version

Hi I´m new to Wikitravel but have been using Wikipedia & Vikipedio (the Esperanto version of Wikipedia) for at least a couple of months. I´m certainly no expert at Esperanto but I have a basic understanding of it (which is not hard) and I was wondering what other Wikitravellers think about starting Wikitravel in Esperanto. I would be able to help out with it, although I would feel better if there was someone better at it than me who was in charge. I don´t know what´s involved in being an admin, but if it´s no harder than being a user (other than a little extra time) then I´m willing to do this if no-one else is. Let me know what you all think. User:AussieDingo1983 2006-05-06 05:52 (UTC)

See Wikitravel:How to start a new language version. Long and short of it is, you need to get three people (at least) to sign up and translate the interface files. Jpatokal 03:08, 6 May 2006 (EDT)
Actually, our glorious leader, Evan speaks Esperanto too. You may want to leave something on his talk page. Sapphire 03:17, 6 May 2006 (EDT)
Wikitravel:List of related projects mentions an Esperanto travel wiki. I cannot currently connect to it, but I'm behind the Great Firewall of China and connected through a remarkably flaky university network, so that may mean nothing. Pashley 06:06, 6 May 2006 (EDT)
Took a peak at that and though my Esperanto is a bit rusty, as I've never even heard of this language until about a week ago, it seems that wiki isn't very active. This language seems to be German with an "o" added to the end of words so I was able to navigate some what and it underwhelmingly boring. - Sapphire
It definitly is not German with an "o"! ;-)) - Felix, 06/May/2006, 18:29 GMT
There's a Wikibooks Esperanto course as well as a number of Web resources for the language. I think we should probably have an Esperanto phrasebook, since there's a lot of value for travellers (I've visited Esperanto associations around the world while travelling -- it's pretty cool.)
I think that if anyone's interested, it'd be great to start an Esperanto Wikitravel Expedition. Esperantists are net-savvy and committed -- the success of the Esperanto Wikipedia is a good indicator that a travel guide would probably thrive. Aussie-D, do you want to get the expedition started? --Evan 11:09, 6 May 2006 (EDT)
I, for one, would be interested in both an Esperanto Wikitravel Expedition and a complete Wikitravel in Esperanto! Few people travel more than those who speak Esperanto. Go for it!
--Verdlanco 15:49, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

Special:Contributions/63.108.178.2

I hope someone is keeping an eye on the IP user's contributions, just to make sure that the listings are only to primary sites and the linking is not excessive. — Ravikiran 15:50, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I have it in my head to wait until they're done and go back and MoS them (though anyone else should feel free to jump in). I want to wait until they're done to avoid getting into an edit war with them, which happened briefly with Telluride. They seem to be sort-of primary. I mean, if somebody is a realtor who has a bunch of vacation homes to rent, I guess that's primary. Even though they're an intermediary, they're the intermediary the traveler would contact. Thoughts? There doesn't seem to be as clear of a line as there is with hotels. -- Jonboy 15:56, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
I investigated one of the contributions that was being scattered about the Outer Banks. It really did have complete descriptions and pictures of each offered rental, a schedule of when the rental was booked vs. available, and had extensive widespread listings so that it was pertinent to many articles. From this I infer that they are the Primary Source for this information -- unless realtors have some way of sharing the booking info that I don't know about.
In the past when we get corporate contributions like this, there has been inconsistency between stuff which is a good addition to the guide vs. stuff that we wouldn't normally link to. So just because I investigated one set of contributions doesn't mean the rest are okay. We definitely need to MoS. There seems to be some sort of irresistable urge among advertisers to give the accomodation a Google friendly name instead of using the actual establishment name; this contributor is no exception. -- Colin 16:01, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
Oh lordy, this issue is such a tricky one. It's come up a couple of different way but it's just so hard to have a firm policy on "vacation rental" type things. (Full disclosure: I'm currently a big fan of vacation rentals-- they're super great if you have kids!). On the one hand they are useful and on the other they tend to be tinted a slight shade of spam-pink... I guess I jumped the gun and rolled back one of their submissions without really looking at it. I think the "wait and see" approach is a good one... Maybe we should bring together all the seperate converstaions about this in one place, on Wikitravel:External links? Majnoona 16:54, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

Country/region oversight

Does Wikitravel have general overseers for the world's various geographic regions (e.g. an overseeing mod for Western Europe, or Brazil)? It might be useful to copy Wikipedia's example of nominating uber-mods who have the final say on matters pertaining to a specific subject. This would ensure that there was a long-term editor watching over a set of articles who had proper perspective on how they were set out.

For example, an overseer for all article about France would be the ideal candidate for making sure that all France articles conform to Wikitravel standard formats, could be a responsible figure to turn to for consultation when major changes to that set of articles were proposed, could flag articles which need bringing up to par with the best France articles, could coordinate other mods interested in France, could coordinate efforts to remove systemic bias/failings (e.g. the UK article has problems with semi-humorous regional and class conflicts emerging in the article), and could be the final arbiter on matters to do with France articles. Most of those jobs are already performed by editors working en masse, but haphazardly and in pieces. Appointing someone with a little more power and responsibility to deal with major groups of articles might make the editing of those articles more efficient.

I hope I haven't missed this feature's existence! Polocrunch 17:48, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

We have a system of Wikitravel:Docents, where the docent can answer questions about a destination from readers who have questions.
I don't think that travel has the same kind of specialization requirements that deep coverage of a scientific or technical topic requires. I mean, is any particular resident or visitor to Minot really so super-qualified that they should have exclusive and final say over what goes in and what doesn't? That just doesn't seem very reasonable. Things have worked very well so far where people contribute proportionally to their knowledge, dedication to the subject, and free time. A more rigid hierarchy doesn't seem healthy for Wikitravel at this stage of the game.
Do you have some links on that Wikipedia program? I've never seen it. --Evan 20:07, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Still on Docents

I'm not being able to set myself as a docent on the Sao Paulo page. Could it be anything wrong on the server side or am I screwing it up somehow? :) Cheers! Mattalves 18:28, 13 May 2006 (EDT)

The HasDocent template apparently doesn't work properly if you go to an article by way of a redirect (such as São Paulo or Sao Paulo (city) instead of Sao Paulo). These bits of code are somewhat delicate. :) It might be worthwhile to follow Special:Whatlinkshere/Sao_Paulo to find out which pages are linking to it through redirects, and change them to [[Sao Paulo|São Paulo]], so they link directly. - Todd VerBeek 19:55, 13 May 2006 (EDT)
Thanks for the help and the corrections, Todd! Works fine now :) Mattalves 12:27, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

For those of us who are visual learners

Has anyone discussed the possiblity of creating some standard icons for various systematic information, such as hours of operation, admission charge, telephone number, guided tours available, photography not allowed, handicap access, restaurant or cafe at the location, etc? Perhaps a small section behind each location description that would include the icons and the related information? I can provide a Photoshopped proof-of-concept if anyone is interested. - Cybjorg 12:37, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

A little bit of that may be coming with a current project to develop custom tags to format listings. You can see an experimental example of a little telephone icon at Singapore/Sentosa#Sleep. I'm not sure that all of the things you mention would be practical, however. For example, handicap accessibility is mandated by law in the U.S., so that icon would have to be added to pretty much every hotel, restaurant, etc. in the country. - Todd VerBeek 15:07, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
I like the idea of tags for various subsets of information. I can't, however, see the telephone icon in your example. My browser (Firefox) simply displays a question mark in place of the icon. Here is a basic sketch of what I had in mind, although it far from refined. - Cybjorg 02:13, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
If you're not seeing the phone, that's probably a font issue; this is using a font character rather than a font image, and the font in use on your system probably doesn't include one. I do like the idea of using icons like this in the listings. It helps break them up visually, making it easier to find information quickly. - Todd VerBeek 08:04, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
Mark's new stylesheets automatically use a section-appropriate icon instead of the usual bullet for the "bulleted list" -- this was part of his style redesign which was done as his entry to the new logo contest. It's a bit of a mystery to me why Evan hasn't implemented it. See his demo site -- Colin 15:42, 17 May 2006 (EDT)
It's a nice looking redesign. I would like to see a full page option, as well as a refined print style sheet, but I like Mark's ideas. I especially like the Table of Contents floated to the right-hand side. - Cybjorg 01:16, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
If you click the arrow in the upper-right of the page, it will widen to full-width. -- Colin 01:32, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Now that I've explored the page a bit more in depth, I also notice that he placed links to various style sheets, including one for print. Very clever. - Cybjorg 02:27, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Colin: sorry about the mystery. I think there are some great features in the skin. I'm currently adapting some of the ideas from Mark's skin into Wikitravel, but it will probably not be included in toto into the site. --Evan 10:05, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Which ideas make the cut? Which ones don't? I wouldn't have spent quite so much time on it or worked so hard to satisfy Niels' requirements if I'd known that it was only ever going to be a demo. -- Mark 16:47, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
I like the sharp edges and the colors as well as moving the table of contents. I like the stylesheet switcher -- it's elegantly executed. I'm not so hot on the per-section listing icons, since we've already got so many images loaded per page. I understand the motivation, but I'd rather reduce than increase the number of files that need to be loaded to see any one page. (See [1] for some points about optimizing our pages.)
I also think it might be possible to do the per-item icons using CSS2 rather than by reparsing the HTML output; Maybe with a CSS selector like: h3#Eat + ul li, but that would require changing how headers are generated (a good thing, in my opinion). I'm not sure how well the "+" in a CSS selector works.
Do you have some key parts that you think are vital to include? --Evan 17:13, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
The one-column style is emotionally important to me since it took the most time, and since I made it directly in response to a user's (Neils') requirement. Do you really think that the listing icons are so heavy? They are less than 1k eeach after all, and should get cached anyhow.
As for the method for delineating the sections, there's a comment right there in the PHP code begging for a better way to do it. -- Mark 17:54, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
Considering the size and repetition of the wee icons, I can't see them adding substantially to the "weight" of Wikitravel's pages. I developed a web site 10 years ago that used several images that size in much the same way, and even at 19.2 or 33.6kbps it didn't noticeably affect page-load times, even on the entry page. (Of course all of my HTML was lovingly and optimally hand-coded with height and width attributes, but still...) - Todd VerBeek 18:16, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

Sites of interest as opposed to the city/region/etc. focus Wikitravel has so far

A lot of the most interesting places to visit in China — for the "adventure tourist" at any rate — are, for historical reasons obvious to anybody who knows China's history, in way-the-Hell-out-of-the-way places nowhere near a city or town. Examples would include Longhu Mountain, home of one of the most important Taoist temples in China and White Deer Academy, the world's oldest university. (Other standalones which could at least plausibly be associated with nearby cities would include Shaolin Temple, Donglin Temple, Tiefo Temple, etc. but I think they'd still be better served as separate destinations rather than as simple entries in a city page.) I'm really not sure how I'd go about adding information on these kinds of places given the editorial policies in place and the templates provided. And yet I really want to actually document these out-of-the-way places which I've grown to love in my stay in China. Could anybody with some suggestions on how to do this drop a line on my user talk page? --Michael 06:49, 17 May 2006 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Plunge forward and write them up as small cities, which is the 'default' template for oddballs (cf. Panmunjeom, North Pole). Alternatively, if they're national parks (as eg. Longhushan seems to be), then the park template is also a good option. Jpatokal 02:15, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

"Discover" page created for Wikitraveltrivia

So I took TVerBeek's suggestion and created Wikitravel:Discover for the "Did you know?" stuff. Debates about naming and how to display this on Wikitravel talk:Discover, please. Jpatokal 13:48, 23 May 2006 (EDT)

Equivalent of wikipedia's reference desk

Is there currently an equivalent of a reference desk in wikitravel? Andjam 01:13, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

Sort of: some destinations have docents, but in general feel free to post questions to talk pages and someone will try to answer! Majnoona 22:42, 27 May 2006 (EDT)
It might be cool to start it, though! I like the idea. Wikitravel:Information kiosk, maybe? Or just Wikitravel:?, like the road signs ? --Evan 10:48, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

Public images licensing

People, through a quick talk with Andrew Haggard (Sapphire), I came to notice that there's no licensing option availabe when uploading images issued by governments other than the US's. What should a user do when uploading a graphic or picture from such a source (which are most certainly considered public domain, at least here in Brazil)? Any ideas? Cheers! Mateus Alves

If it really is public domain, then tag it as public domain. Be careful though: the US's policy of placing everything in the public domain is very much an exception, and eg. anything by the Singapore government is copyrighted. Jpatokal 23:45, 27 May 2006 (EDT)
I think that's a Commonwealth thing; most former British colonies have copyright on government works. However, Mateus, could you find some English-language links that say that Brazilian government works are in the public domain? --Evan 00:01, 28 May 2006 (EDT)
OK, so, here's Brazil's copyright law in English, which doesn't at first glance have an exception for government works in the same way US law does. --Evan 00:06, 28 May 2006 (EDT)
I know that Indian government works are not PD - the government owns copyright (They took "crown copyright" and did a copy-paste job.) — Ravikiran 03:49, 28 May 2006 (EDT)
Be careful regarding images from United States government sources as well. Text and images produced by state or local governments are fully protected by United States copyright law. Only works by the federal government are put into the public domain, and even then there are exceptions. Further, products of civilian agencies and outside contractors on behalf of the federal government may be fully protected by copyright law. In short, if an image is not specifically identified as public domain, it probably isn't. SHC 06:40, 28 May 2006 (EDT)
I'll look deeper into that matter as soon as I can, since legalese isn't my strong point ;) But I'll ask some lawyer friends about that... I might be wrong in this supposition, but I'm pretty sure pictures produced toward distribution and promotion (of touristic and cultural destinations, in our case) CAN be used freely. Mattalves 11:33, 28 May 2006 (EDT)

Turns out that yes, every information the government puts out is available as public domain, unless considered "classified" by decreet, law or executive instances (such as armed forces information). Article number 37 of the Brazilian constitution declares that "the direct or indirect public administration of any of the powers of the Union, the States, the Federal District and the municipalities, as well as their foundations, shall obey the principles of lawfulness, impersonality, morality, publicity", which pretty much guarantees the right of every citizen to publicize governmental produced info (pictures included). English version of the aforementioned article can be found here. Mattalves 19:33, 28 May 2006 (EDT)

Factbookectomy

Ahem.

As far as I can tell, there are no articles left in Wikitravel (not counting archives or reference copies) which consist entirely, primarily, or substantially of CIA World Factbook imports.

If you manage to find any, please plunge forward and fix it yourself.

I do have to say: de-factbooking the last few dozen remaining imports the past couple days was a rather interesting excursion through many tiny little islands, some vast swaths of Africa, and... how did Mexico manage to go so long without a full factbookectomy?

- Todd VerBeek 15:02, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

Congratulations! Here's a millstone milestone to wear around your neck. Would you happen to remember what was the last one? Jpatokal 05:03, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

Shared help

I wanted to float and idea on Shared here since there is more traffic. I created a welcome message on Shared, which I use everytime I see a new user on Shared. The idea is to prevent copyvios and abuse on the Shared site. In the welcome message I direct users back to EN site's travellers' pub in case they have a question or issue it can be answered immediately. I believe it is a good idea especially for new wiki users.

I would like to create a separate Shared help page on EN, so that questions specific to Shared can be asked there and these questions can be answered in a timely fashion instead of being answered two or three days later on the Shared site. Anyone else think this would useful? I'd imagine the page could be Wikitravel:Shared help? - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 21:21, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

Couldn't it be :Shared:Wikitravel:Help? (I'm not entirely clear about this interwiki namespace syntax.) We do have to try to get our ducks in a row regarding Shared. It's going to get used more and more (because we want it to be), and in addition to filling in some of the missing administrative pages, it's going to require some coordination with editors of the other language versions to establish procedures, and more watching by experienced users to help the newbies. The lingua franca for administering Shared is probably going to have to be English, but we should try to avoid directing people to EN (which will be a third Wikitravel site for many people). - Todd VerBeek 21:40, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

P.S. What happened to Willy? Did someone kill him or did he wander off? - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 21:22, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

We don't kill vandals — we wait until they go away on their own accord. The amount of time this takes varies based on the statistical odds at their particular location of a shiny object impinging upon their field of vision. -- Colin 21:27, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
They always eventually get distracted by some other brightly-colored object, and go see if maybe it will be friends with them. - Todd VerBeek 21:40, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

Is this still a community?

Sorry but I begin more and more to wonder if wikitravel is still a community or just one or two navigators plus a bunch of content providers. It seems that important decisions are done outside the community, while important actions that could restore faith (database dumps or xml exports) are postboned. While we can discuss about the reasons not to have a public vote about selling whatever to internetbrands, we - as a community - should definetly have discussions (and votings) before significant changes in the look and feel are made. Btw, I never saw a change of the ToC on the "Requested Feature"-page. Of course, consensus takes time, but where is the problem. We had white spaces for years, I think we could have lived with them a few weeks more until a decision was made.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the sad feeling that parts of this project are slowly dying. I think this is especially true for the german language version. I'm not saying I'm quitting right now, but I definetly lost a lot of joy I found in the work here. Just to give some feedback, Thorsten 16:52, 6 June 2006 (EDT).

Thorsten, I'm sorry you feel that way; there's a discussion going on at Wikitravel talk:Table of contents location to figure out the best place to put the table of contents. If you'd like to participate in that conversation, please do; I really want to get this worked out. We've had people complain about the whitespace in the ToCs, I moved stuff over as a bug fix. I don't think it's a major change, but some people seem pretty attached to it, so I'd like to figure out the right thing to do. My personal feeling is that moving the ToC to the right side of the screen is the best bet.
Typically I haven't asked people's opinions before adding features or fixing bugs in the past, especially if the impact isn't very severe. I don't plan on micromanaging the development process in the future, either; we aren't going to have referendums on what order the "Search" buttons should go in.
That said, the strength of this project is and always will be the community. I'm open to suggestions, feedback, complaints and protests (that's what Wikitravel:Bug reports and Wikitravel:Feature requests are for). One option User:Cjensen suggested was having a read-only "demo" wiki where new UI ideas can be tested. The last thing in the world I want is for people to think that they don't have a voice. My job is to keep the servers running and keep the software going so that you and other contributors are more effective and have more fun making travel guides.
I'm also really concerned about de:; I miss de:Benutzer:DerFussi, who was a great anchor for that community and a really great go-between and a nice man. I think we need to rebuild the bridges between de: and en: and make sure that German contributors are getting the support (technical and administrative) that they need. de: Wikitravel is a really great project and I want to see it keep succeeding. --Evan 17:54, 6 June 2006 (EDT)
Hi Evan - the point Mark made about the importance of communication is a much bigger deal after the sale to Internet Brands. A lot of people are a bit uncomfortable about the current arrangement, but we're also happy for you and Maj and want to see things work out. More communication, involvement of the community in the change process, and discussion about why changes are happening would be a very good thing, and would probably make everyone a bit more comfortable with the way change is handled.
Based on your previous comments it seems like you see certain things as being solely in your control (in some cases with input possible from the community), while other things are in the community's control. However, where that line is drawn does not seem to be clear to everyone, so it might be helpful to specifically spell it out in something like a Wikitravel:Project infrastructure policy. Identifying cases where you don't feel community consensus is needed (server work, MediaWiki software updates, bugfixes) and what you see as driven by you with community input (look & feel, new features) would be helpful. Additionally, a Wikitravel:Project infrastructure plans page would be helpful to provide users with a timeline of planned changes and provide a forum for discussion. Setting up the infrastructure policy to say that "infrastructure changes will be made unless there is a consensus within the community NOT to make them" should be fine as long as it's clear what is infrastructure; a change like the TOC change would be fine since there wasn't a clear consensus against it. The benefit would be that people would have a few days to hear the reason for a change and to make suggestions. Thoughts? -- Ryan 19:35, 6 June 2006 (EDT)
I think that sounds like a really good plan. I'd also like to emphasize the reversability of the process (stuff that gets added can get removed if people are adamant) and the importance of giving new tools a try before giving up on them. --Evan 20:07, 6 June 2006 (EDT)
Meh. We already have too many words and too little action about community participation. I like the idea of the read-only demo site better, it would've been the best way to handle this little TOC thing and any future, more far-reaching skin/UI changes. Jpatokal 22:16, 6 June 2006 (EDT)
Evan, I didn't want to put that on the ToC discussion site, because I think my considerations are more of general concern. And I also think that there is some difference about adding a feature or removing a bug compared to changing stuff on the site. And I think the UI is not "micromanagement", because everybody working in the web industry will agree that the look-and-feel of a website is more than very important. And about people having a voice: I think there were more voters for categories than for this new ToC? Having a test wiki were WE can decide about look and feel, is also a good way to increase transparency.
But putting the ToC aside, right now the situation is more like I'm not sure what to find on wikitravel the next day. And that's why I would appreciate the above mentioned roadmaps for wikitravel. But please, now publish those plans and not just agree here and then leave it. There are not many actions yet done from the April 20th discussion. I'm still waiting for a download version. But then again, I don't feel much community when I have to get an approval by you or ib or anyone to download the xml export.
The german language version is sure suffering from some exits of important contributers. But I don't think it's technical or administrative support the is required most. The reasons for quitting were 1.) selling wikitravel to a "commercial" enterprise and 2.) your communication policy. Maybe it's a cultural thing that this hit the other language versions more than the english version? Thorsten 03:52, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
More information is defintely better and a test Wiki would be great. I think everybody is a bit uncertain about what the future (IB) will bring, so as more transparent your movements are, the more people will trust you. The community here not only wants to contribute. What Thorsten mentions about culture is in my view very true. Most people in German speaking countries see companies transactions like these with IB very negative because free distributed work by individuals get sold to an investor who takes advantage of it. Jan 04:26, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

I'm very concerned about the current development. There was no real reason for changing the TOC. Evan wrote, that there were several complaints about it. For those, there are other solutions such as Template:TOCleft - with an advantage of individual use. If the current change will be maintained, I will quit contributing on German language Wikitravel. -- Steffen M. 05:57, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

@Jan: I think the real reason for the current crisis on German language Wikitravel was not simply the selling out of Wikitravel, it was the undemocratic and abrupt decision of Evan. There was no chance for discussing the issue and finding alternatives, for example founding a society such as Wikimedia. Furthermore, we really don't know until today, why he sold Wikitravel. The change of the TOC is just a continution. It's true, especially in Germany we hate it to see the power in one man's hand (the reasons should be known). -- Steffen M. 07:11, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

Hi Evan! You have almost done it. Wait some weeks and you can declare the German Wikitravel officially dead. It's not enough to cut your losses and explain your actions afterwards. You've said that the bridges between en: and de: have to be rebuild. Just idle talk. I've never seen any attempt of you on the Traveller's pub on de: Only some small answers on some user pages. -- DerFussi 08:37, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
I know nothing about the past history of this relationship, but based on the attitude I'm hearing, it doesn't sound like you're giving Evan much of a chance. I agree that he has sometimes done a poor job of communicating, such that changes like this come completely out of the blue for most of us, and that's something that needs addressing (he's getting some flak for it here in EN as well), but ultimatums and thinly veiled comparisons to a certain late Chancellor aren't helping. - Todd VerBeek 09:34, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
DF, if there's a conversation that you'd like me to participate in, please let me know. I've been trying to keep up on User talk: pages because that seems to be where the conversations about Wikitravel are happening. I don't think Wikitravel de: is dead by a long shot. --Evan 09:54, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
Steffen, I'm pretty amazed that you don't know what happened with Wikitravel. I'd recommend reading Wikitravel:20 April 2006, in which I laid out why the sale happened, and Wikitravel talk:Internet Brands, which has a lot of questions and answers. If you have some questions not answered there, absolutely ask. --Evan 09:54, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
Sure, I know these pages. You explained, why both projects (Wikitravel and World 66) should work together, but not, why you sold Wikitravel to a commercial enterprise. Providing leadership and resources is no justification for that. -- Steffen M. 10:21, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
Do you mean, why we sold to a commercial company as compared to moving to Wikimedia or starting a foundation, or continuing to pay for it ourselves? Money, of course. B-) Maj and I were able to cover costs and donate our time for the time being, but it was getting more and more expensive and we had to find a long-term solution for the site.
I think Wikimedia Foundation is a great project, but I was concerned with the level of support and attention that wikis that aren't Wikipedia en: get from the WMF. There are 600 wikis with 1 full-time programmer at the WMF; we didn't think that Wikitravel would get the resources it needed to thrive if it was just another project at the WMF.
My experience with non-profit foundations and Free Software/Free Content projects is poor. There are some notable winners and a lot of losers. It seems like donations come in quickly the first time you ask, and go down and down and down from there. An example is the Freenet Project, which gathered a few hundred thousand dollars in donations, and now has $500 in its bank account (according to the front page on their site). With donations we could probably have paid for server resources, but not for programmers' and sysadmins' time. And we'd be competing with other non-profits for donations and attention. A non-profit foundation to run a big Web site seemed like a really big gamble -- not a secure plan for the future.
So, when Internet Brands approached us about Wikitravel, we thought hard about their proposal. Our primary concern was making sure that the project continued and thrived. They offered to employ us to work on the site full time, to pay for hardware and network bandwidth, and to put sysadmins, programmers, and designers at the site's disposal. They wanted to keep the site community-oriented, maintain the license, ensure its editorial integrity, and support its growth. They were clear about wanting to make money from the site, but we thought that the way they wanted to make money (ads on the site) was the most transparent possible business model, and it would support the continued growth of the project. Lastly, there was an option to form a partnership with World66, which was very attractive. The upshot: a secure site, ready for growth, with little change in the culture and content, and a long-time competitor turned into a collaborator. There wasn't an alternative even remotely as attractive.
The project's long-term future was our responsibility; shirking that responsibility wasn't an option. We didn't want to put our relationship with the project to a vote; it was a personal decision we had to make. --Evan 11:44, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
Hi Evan, thank you for your detailled reply, this was something I missed up to now. I don't support, but I also don't oppose the commercialisation of Wikitravel. However, I think that I speak for the German contributors who have left Wikitravel since April 20. Why didn't you inform the community before? Do you have no confidence in it? And referring the collaboration: Especially non-English language versions have no advantage from a collaboration with World66.
As I mentioned, I strongly oppose the current change in the TOC style; this was initially the only reason for my complaints here. Is there another solution? I prefer the individual use of TOC templates (TOCleft and TOCright). -- Steffen M. 12:26, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
I think there are a number of possible solutions, which are under discussion on the Wikitravel talk:Table of contents location page. I've rolled back to the old format until we come to a decision about what to do. I have to say that I find complaints about the layout with the ToC in the content area very reasonable; I just don think pages like this give a good first impression for readers. --Evan 12:52, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
Hi Steffen. I just want to follow up on what Evan has said and maybe answer the questions about why we didn't inform the community "before." I think it's important to understand that we did not decide to sell the site and then go shop around for buyers. In fact, we had turned down a number of different commercial venture offers of different types in the past. When we realized that there was the possibility of coming to an agreement with IB, it was not realistic, either from a legal or business perspective, to publicize the negotiations. I'm not sure what level of involvement you would have liked: +10k users could hardly have fit into a meeting room, nor could we set up a wiki for community-editing of the legal agreements. We made the announcement as soon as it was feasible and have been working hard to answer issues and questions as they come up.
I'm sorry there has been problems communicating with the other language versions-- I try to follow along with Google Translate, but it's far from perfect. I hope continuing the conversation here in English is helping to clarify things! Majnoona 14:31, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
But this is not a software problem. You can solve it on individual ways without destroying the style of other articles, see my Version of San Diego. -- Steffen M. 14:13, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
That wouldn't work on pages with a picture or a country quickbar in the upper right corner. Unless you're suggesting that we should put the TOC on one side or the other from one page to the next, which throws consistency out the window, and is a Bad Thing. - Todd VerBeek 16:10, 7 June 2006 (EDT)
Todd, I totally agree with you. I think some users got a bit carried away in this discussion, but that only shows how deeply emotionally they are involved in wikitravel. Of course I wanted to do some fingerpointing, but I agree with you that we should not start a tribunal. On the other side it is important to remind Evan of past promises and warn him about the mood in some areas of wikitravel. So let's wait and see how Evan will react - not with words but with actions. I'm very interested to see the Wikitravel:Project infrastructure plans page that's hopefully coming up soon. Thorsten 10:03, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

Problem displaying location hierarchy after a redirect?

Umea redirects to Umeå. If you follow the link for Umea, the first line of text after the title is "(Redirected from Umea)," but on Umeå, it's "Scandinavia : Sweden : Norrland : Umeå." Shouldn't this line also be present after following a redirect? Philbert2.71828 15:37, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

  • You might argue that it "should" be there, but this is how it's designed to work. :) What's happening is that the "redirected" message takes over the on-screen slot that the breadcrumbs otherwise would use. - Todd VerBeek 18:01, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

Movies

guys , english is not my mother tonguage , i just want to search for movies about different countries before i travel to it..movies speaking about natural places maybe animals..anythng interesting about the country i m heading to? i just want to know what is the name of that kind of movies , is it documantry?i always search documantry movies but it just speak about history of the country.. and just a suggestion can we add a topic for every place or city with movies made by us..i mean most of the travellers do some photoing and make small movies while they are travelling , can we add a section of ( movies ) to every country so every one can upload his own movie about it  ?

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