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Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

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The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'. Also, if you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Bug reports page instead.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!


Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

Stuff that's been moved:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Checklist for Wikitravellers on the road?

Is there anywhere a list of suggestions for someone on a trip who wants to maximize the usefulness of their experience to this site? If not, would it be worthwile to create such a list. I'm thinking of something like:

  1. Does the existing description in "Get In" fit with your experience of arriving? If there is no description of your mode of travel, start one. What was unusual about the experience that other people should know?
  2. Did you stay in a hotel or other paid accommodation? If so, would you recommend it to others? If so, please add it to "Sleep". If not, please delete it from "Sleep" if it's there, but explain why in the Talk page.

Etc. Jonboy 09:51, 20 Feb 2006 (EST)

I just saw this for the first time for some reason. Jonboy, this is a great idea. I don't have a good name for it... maybe Wikitravel:Field research checklist? --Evan 11:28, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

Arabic and Hindi Wikitravel

Even though I dont speak the languages i was wondering about how to get it up and running? Enlil Ninlil 00:47, 22 Feb 2006 (EST)

Wikitravel:How to start a new language version Jpatokal 01:52, 22 Feb 2006 (EST)

Watching all the articles within a region

I think that this question has been asked a while ago, but anyway...

Now that we have the really good Breadcrumb navigation (IsIn) working, is it possible to use this to "watch" all the articles within a region eg. Sicily? DanielC 08:13, 23 February 2006 (EST)


1. Why does the Disclaimers link at the bottom of every page go to an Old Bug Reports page? (Is this a mistake?)

2. Do we need a Disclaimer page? (Wikipedia has one, several actually.)

--Rogerhc 01:35, 6 March 2006 (EST)

If we don't have a real Disclaimers page, how about redirecting Wikitravel:General disclaimer to Wikitravel:Terms of use instead? That's at least a little closer-to-topic than the bug-reports page. - Todd VerBeek 12:36, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

Terms of Service?

Do we need any kind of Terms of Service page? (Wikipedia seems to feel they don't need that although they do have drafts that seem to end up concluding, rightly or wrongly, that there is no service and therefore no terms of service because there is no formal service relationship, thus no agreement or terms.)

--Rogerhc 01:35, 6 March 2006 (EST)

We have a Wikitravel:Terms of use. Is that about what you were looking for? --Evan 07:19, 6 March 2006 (EST)
Yes, thank you Evan. --Rogerhc 00:00, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

Oregon Contributor Activity

There seems to be quite a number of newbie contributors in Oregon for some reason. If you see anyone contributing there, check it out because they often seem to need some guidance. -- Colin 13:30, 10 March 2006 (EST)

One of them wrote me and said
As an assignment for a business class at Oregon State my classmates
and I are required to update a public wiki with "valuable contributions."
so that explains that. -- Colin 22:15, 10 March 2006 (EST)
There has been a huge rush of contributions this afternoon (16 March) that appear to be from this group. Maple Canyon, Waldo Lake, Great glen way, and a ton of images. A lot of the images appear to be copyvios, but I've run out of time to keep tracking them down so anyone who has a chance to look into them it would be much appreciated.
To the contributors: your contributions are much appreciated and very valuable additions. The concerns are that they are not copyright violations (see Wikitravel:Image policy), that they are valid article topics (see Wikitravel:What is an article?), and to a lesser extent that they are formatted correctly (see Wikitravel:Manual of style). -- Ryan 20:57, 16 March 2006 (EST)
Also to the contributors: It would also be a good idea to pay attention to the Wikitravel:Article templates applicable to what you're writing, so that your contributions are indeed "valuable." (I'd bet that that Oregon State instructor is aware of the templates -- or soon will be.) Using the templates to begin with will save some rewriting later that may simply wipe your contribution out, with a possibly similar wipeout on your grade... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 22:30, 16 March 2006 (EST)


I see the new logo's been put into place, and it looks nice. But I'm still seeing ye olde globe-and-arrow icon as the favicon for the site (the little icon that shows up in the URL field, "favorites" listing, and/or title bar of better web browsers). I'd be happy to make a favicon.ico file, but obviously I can't update it on the site myself. Todd VerBeek 22:11, 18 March 2006 (EST)

If you take a look at Image:Compass star emblem coolvetica logo.png and Image:Treatment.png I think Mark has actually already created an image suitable for a favicon, but I'm not sure what the status for getting it on the site is -- rumor has it that there's an entirely new skin in the works that uses the new logos, but either Evan or Mark would probably be the only ones who could provide an update. -- Ryan 04:36, 19 March 2006 (EST)
Thanks for the reminder; I've got the new icon up now, too. You may have to load directly in your browser before it realizes that the icon has changed. --Evan 09:09, 19 March 2006 (EST)

Suggestion: Article Improvment Drive

I would support an Article Improvment Drive like the one in Wikipedia. We already have the cotw thing for usable articles, but I would suggest AID would be for Guide and Star articles that need to be perfected. Would anyone like this???????? --Worldtraveller 14:20, 22 March 2006 (EST)

Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week -- Colin 16:42, 22 March 2006 (EST)


Alert a vandal is ruining the bahrain and NYC articles! 09:38, 31 March 2006 (EST)

Uh, maybe I'm comfused here, but aren't you the vandal in question? If so, I'm amused. Majnoona 09:53, 31 March 2006 (EST)
He was at least partially undoing a vandal's changes, though not always perfectly. I think it was a successful (and moderately amusing) attempt to confuse some of us... -- Colin 10:08, 31 March 2006 (EST)

No maj... i wanted to revert 66 ip sorry i just talked to you on ip 09:55, 31 March 2006 (EST)

Whoa Colin nothing like that 10:11, 31 March 2006 (EST)

New article type suggestion

I was walking around in Paris today and found a great walking path from central Paris to Chateau de Vincennes in an eastern suburb. My immediate thought was: 'I want to tell other people about this on Wikitravel!' But, as I see it, we don't have any place to put such info...

I therefore suggest that we create a 'Walk'/'Stroll'/(insert better name suggestion here) type of article as a sub-article to cities. The layout could be about the same as Itiniraries and the articles could include photos, recommended stops, etc.

What do you think? Comments, suggestions? -- Jelse 13:20, 1 April 2006 (EST)

I think Itiniraries would already cover that. Or if the walking path is very short, just add it as something to "Do" within the city/district. -- Ilkirk 13:27, 1 April 2006 (EST)
Yeah, "walking tours" are a very nice way to see a city or part of one. I think this fits in nicely with itineraries, since a) it's directed and b) it will have waypoints. Jelse, why don't you get it started, and let's see how it goes? --Evan 13:37, 1 April 2006 (EST)
OK, plunging forward. I started the Walk to Vincennes itinerary. I have limited internet access at present but expect it to grow in the coming weeks. -- Jelse 10:06, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

Retaining users

I've been editing and adding less information than I normally do so I've been welcoming new users instead. I've also been checking how often some users and I've noticed that many travelers seem to contribute for a month or up to three months and then seem to cease activity. Anyhow, my point, or rather my question is this: How do we retain these users? There seems to be the core devotees - Admins and then some lowly users who love WikiTravel, but even with our expansive knowledge of destinations and such we unfortunately don't know everything about Earth. We really do need to retain these users, because they offer key expertise in various regions and cities. How can we inspire them to further contribute to WikiTravel? Sapphire 20:34, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

That's a good but not simple question, because the answer depends on the average profile of Wikitravellers and we don't have a good estimation on that. Maybe we could identify a few categories:
1) People who like to travel and write about it - I guess those make up most of the "regulars" here
2) People who are into Wiki stuff - those normally are into travel/writing too, but also feel comfortable enough to plunge forward into MediaWiki templates, markup etc.
Most people in the categories above have some sort of ideal/belief in the importance of the Wikitravel project as a whole. On the other hand, there are also people who:
3) Just want to welcome visitors to their countries/cities, make some more or less extensive contributions to a couple of articles then leave;
4) Just want to promote their establishments as much as they can;
5) Are curious about the Wiki, insert a link to anywhere then leave
There are probably more, but I'd say that we're less likely to retain users in categories 4 and 5. People in categories 1, 2 and maybe 3 could be more easily retained as long as long as we are able to make them more enthusiastic about Wikitravel - the inspiration you mentioned. I guess, though, that this would require some marketing-like techniques: advertising, rewards and, of course, excellent customer service like our welcome messages :o) Ricardo (Rmx) 21:24, 3 April 2006 (EDT)
As simple a thing as it is, I think the My Talk new message notification will help somewhat because new users will notice their welcome message a little sooner. If they are welcomed, they'll feel included, if they feel included, they'll be a little more involved, so forth and so on. I guess we all need to jump even quicker on the Welcoming party bandwagon... -- Ilkirk 23:18, 3 April 2006 (EDT)
Agree that the new-message notification and similar stroking will help, but in any event, this kind of transient interest is entirely normal, not just on participation-oriented web sites but in Real Life (tm). If you could figure a way to solve this problem, you'd be so busy solving it for for-profit outfits that you wouldn't have time to post here :-), and filthy rich in the bargain. Yes, it would be nice to keep folks longer, but I wouldn't obsess about it. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:03, 4 April 2006 (EDT)
Great conversation here. I guess I have some quick thoughts: first, if people come here, work real hard, and then move on to other projects, I don't want to make them feel bad. I think that's part of the ebb and flow of Internet communities, and it's something we'll have to deal with naturally. That said, we do have a sharp learning curve here, and it seems a shame to lose the contributions of experienced people.
I hope that the docents project picks up steam, since I think that's a great way for people who are working on a single destination or group of destinations to stay interested. I think beefing up our watchlists with RSS and email or IM notification would be nice, too. Finally, an email newsletter might serve as a reminder for users who haven't been back in a while that we still exist and we could use their help. --Evan 10:22, 4 April 2006 (EDT)
I am new to wikitravel and maybe I belong to categorie 3... Writing in WikiTravel was big fun last weekend and I spend a lot of time doing it. It's just like if you get a new toy, you stop playing with all others and concentrate on the new one. But it is totally normal that after a while things will get balanced again. What can be done to motivate users? Ask questions. If you spend hours on an article being not sure, if anyone will ever be interested in, this is not very motivating. I think the talk page would be a good place for a list of open questions. But the Using talk pages does not stress that it is desired to ask questions there. --Flip666 09:16, 10 April 2006 (EDT)
I'm started to read and write about two months ago and my first impression was that I felt a bit overwhelmed but all the formats, frames, navigation etc. (that a good page needs!). I think the main point is that after people brought in their travel knowledge it is about getting part of the wikitravel community. The talk pages and the travellers pub are good points to discuss topics but unexperienced IT people (who are frequent help line callers at their work...) might see it as a hassle (why a { or [ or # and not a normal bracket). I still copy and paiste all codes for formats from the link in my welcome meassage and jump from maj's message in my talk to Evan. My suggestion to make life easier for newbies is:

1. Search function: Now when i write "evan" nothing about Even arrives until i click after the first hit another time below the boxes user, talk etc. People are used to google and may not allways look for destinations

2. Quickbars, codes, shortscuts: Their should be one general document with all basic codes and a short example how it looks like. If I don't have a clue of codes and download the basic codes and you don't need to go everytime you need something back to the help page.

3. Docents: Good idea

4. Feedback: Sapphire and Maj encouraged me with their feedback to continue writing. Especially if you are new here you are unsure if you are welcome and it's ok the way you do it. The welcome message helps to find around

jan 05:08 (EDT), 27 April 2006

Claiming my input

I just created an entry for Avebury, and being conceited, think it's pretty snazzy, but somehow it lost my id somewhere along the line, so I'm not attributed in the history.. any way of 'reclaiming' an article in the history log ? If someone wnats to argue with me, I'd rather they didn't argue with an IP address! --TheBigYin

Since there's no such thing as an articles that's finished, just make sure you're logged in from now on, and put a note in the next edit summary that you're "". Credit will thus be duly given. - Todd VerBeek 12:06, 6 April 2006 (EDT)
Just FYI, I've been having the same problem lately, on three different computers! (Even after I'm logged in, and my preferences are displayed along the top, it still saves the changes under my IP address.) Thanks for the advice; I'll do the same. -- Haem85 02:53, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
MediaWiki 1.6.x seems to be a lot more aggressive in expiring people's login cookies, and that's caused some bad interactions with our javascript-and-html caching system. An easy work around is to log in with the "remember me" flag set, if you can do that. --Evan 07:28, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
Doesn't seem to help, at least not for me. -- Mark 09:14, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
Ditto. At least the new login page cooperates with Firefox's auto-fill capability, making re-logins less of a hassle. - Todd VerBeek 10:23, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
No, it didn't help for me either. When I first went to the site and had to re-login, I checked the box again, and it still logged me back out. Oh well! -- Haem85 00:14, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

TripAdvisor adds wiki

While writing up this week's Wikipedia Signpost news roundup, I saw that high-profile travel website TripAdvisor has added a wiki called the "Inside Pages" to its site, allowing visitors to write articles about travel destinations and so forth ("TripAdvisor imitates Wikipedia"). They're doing beta testing on U.K. and California information right now; I don't see any obvious notice of the copyright/license terms for the info. Thought you might like to know, and I'd like to know what you think; it's possible we may write more about this in the Signpost next week. -- Catherine)

Hi Catherine, thanks for pointing this out. While it's an interesting development (and the sincerest form of flattery...), Evan and I think there are a couple of important points to keep in mind:
  • Their community features are poor, as well as their personal identity features, and thus the main motivators for people to contribute to a wiki are missing.
  • There doesn't seem to be any participation whatsoever by users in policy, style, or process. We also don't see clearly delineated goals. In other words, there's no feeling of community ownership of the site.
  • We think that our Creative Commons license gives contributors an idealistic goal for creating Open Content guides. TA leaves the license unspecified, and their reputation as a "roach motel" for user contributions suggests that they won't be making any changes along those lines in the near future. --Majnoona 10:49, 17 April 2006 (EDT)


I am interested in buying a wikitravel branded piece of clothing for when I next go backpacking. However there appears to be no link on Wikitravel to anything like this. Therefore,

1) Could we create an easily found page directing people to the merchandise (they have 25 products with the Wikitavel logo on it) at:

2) Is there anywhere else that sells merchandise related to Wikitravel, if so, could that be listed too.

Thanks, Witty lama 07:33, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

I think people buying Wikitravel merchandise would like to know that the profits go to help Wikitravel, and alas, the commercial/financial/legal backend for this is not yet ready. (This also explains why there's no Donate button anywhere on the site.) Evan & co are working on this but it'll be some time until things are finalized, so I think the "official" merchandise link will have to wait -- in the meantime, plunge forward, make your own or contribute designs! (Time for a Wikitravel:T-shirt design contest?) Jpatokal 08:13, 18 April 2006 (EDT)
I put up the CafePress "store" (zero profit) hoping to get the merchandising started. So I think it is time to start the T-shirt contest now so we can have an official T-shirt before summer. Or a T-shirt of the year contest every spring. I do not know how to set up the financial backend, but it is important just to make Wikitravel more visible on wikitravellers. --elgaard 10:33, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

Drink/Local Beer

I'm a self-admitted beer nerd (and seeking help through ethanol therapy, thank you!) and like to try out local offerings. I recently wrote most of what's currently in San Marcos and added a "local beer" section under drink. I should probably get around to this for Houston and the like. Does anyone see a problem for me adding this to other pages (or have ideas for a better way to work the information in)? I'm not a wine person, though I know that Texas and California have some pretty decent local wines that the traveller might want to know about too, so I guess there could be a more general name for this section, but I can't think of a good one. Jordanmills 21:25, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

This seems to me like perfectly appropriate information to include under "Drink". I've including info about local beers and wines in this section on a few pages. One simple way to do that would be to include a bar-type listing for the brewery's pub or the vineyard's tasting room, if they have one. - Todd VerBeek 21:41, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

Wikitravel ownership

This isn't an announcement board, but as a common gathering spot, I figure it's be a good place to point out a bit of news that might otherwise slip under people's radar: is now owned by Internet Brands, and is going to be managed by Evan and Maj - still as an open-content travel guide - as employees. IB also now owns World66, another open-content travel info site. See Wikitravel:Internet Brands for more info about what this means for us, them, and the other them. - Todd VerBeek 12:55, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Putting wikitravel on ipods -

I spent a lot of time in India, where I saw everyone lugging around their heavy travel guides and an ipod, and wondered why nobody had combined the two. Well, I've produced a rough and (hopefully) ready web page that will do just that. I'm looking for feedback and suggestions, but if you just want to use it to make your travels easier, lighter, and cheaper, great! is the site. bcnstony 4:13, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

That's an excellent idea! Although I don't own an iPod, I think it would be great to have it working for the other language versions too (couldn't get a zip file for any of the pt: articles). Ricardo (Rmx) 05:59, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
Multi-lingual doesn't work yet because I'm going through XML, and the Special:Export link changes depending on the language. Once I move to SQL this will be solved. bcnstony 13:13, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
Yeah, that's a very good idea. I think the name is probably going to get you in trouble, though. I'd really like to get that kind of thing working on (see Wikitravel:Offline Reader Expedition). --Evan 09:15, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
Which part of the name? The lonely or the ipod? I don't think apple will care, since if this works people will only want to buy more ipods, and 'Lonely' could be just as easily from Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (in which case the other Apple company would sue me!). bcnstony 13:13, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
The "I think this is good for them" argument doesn't really hold up well in trademark disputes. The courts give the owner of the trademark the right to decide when/where/how it gets used, and actually tends to punish them if they're too lenient. The closest thing to a neutral standard is the "confusion in the marketplace" test, which says that if people might mistake this for an Apple-sanctioned service (or a Lonely Planet service), you lose. I'm not saying you would, but I'm not saying you wouldn't either. - Todd VerBeek 14:36, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

What I'm currently struggling with is how to get the data easily. I can get the info from XML in the /en/Special:Export/city, but that link changes by language (i.e. Spanish is /es/Especial:Export/city). Is it possible to get read access to the database? Or a dump of the database? I read this wasn't available yet, but wanted to see what people thought. bcnstony 13:28, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

Will users be able to read the generated file on other MP3 players such as Creative Zen too? Or is it an iPod-only thing? By the way, Todd seems right about the trademark and the "confusion in the marketplace" argument - maybe you could use instead - it think still provides a pretty good "mental link" to both LP and iPods and would save yourself from any trouble. Ricardo (Rmx) 15:01, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
I think you guys have a valid point, so I'll look into changing that, though I'll get to it after I put some more work into the code.
As for other players, since iPod's are the dominant device I'm focusing on them right now, but eventually I'd like to see this on anything and everything possible. Most of the hard stuff is going to be handling the dynamic linking within documents. Changing the tags so they are read on other players, such as Zen, or Palms, or phones, or whatever, will (I hope) be fairly straightforward. Eventually I'd like to see that right in the options - the user will choose 3 options
  • What Top level page (i.e. Barcelona, NYC, Kenya, etc.)
  • How deep to follow links (just that page, 1 deep, 2 deep, etc.)
  • What format (iPod, Zen, Palm, Windows CE, Motorolla Phone, etc.)
bcnstony 16:02, 25 April 2006 (EDT)
If you do give it a different name, I'd suggest dropping the "lonely" altogether, because that really does make it sound like it's using Lonely Planet content. That bothers me as a Wikitravel partisan almost as much as it would the LP folks. :) Maybe Podtravel, TravelPlayer, GuidePlayer? - Todd VerBeek 17:43, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

People have suggested I change the name, and for legal and other reasons (see above!) I am changing it. I like the suggestions so far, if anyone has other suggestions, feel free to add them here. My favorite, PodTravel, is sadly already taken.

Also, the site now handles long articles by breaking them up into smaller pieces. This is both easier to read and circumvents iPod's 4000 character limit per file.bcnstony 18:28, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

How about wikipod? Especially if you could generalise it so it handled Wikipedia or others? Pashley 21:02, 1 May 2006 (EDT)

I've been thinking about something like this, but instead a more general application to export wiki to other formats like TeX (and on to PDF), openoffice and msword. This would make it really easy to make a paper travelguide. So far I haven't been really looking into it, but including a export to iPod seems like and interresting feature. Ronald 09:48, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

See vs Do

Hey folks, is there any guideline to help figure out what is "See" and what is "Do"? Would a museum count as see or do? 20:40, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Where you can stick it should help. SHC 20:47, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
Rule of thumb: If the main activity there consists of sitting in a vehicle/walking around and looking at things, it's a "See". (This includes all but the most fun museums.) If it includes more involvement than that and/or getting your heart rate up, it's a "Do". - Todd VerBeek 21:00, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
Thanks! Adina 22:18, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
The explanatory paragraphs of the article templates could be helpful too. Ricardo (Rmx) 22:51, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Moving images to Wikitravel Shared?

Apologies if this has been covered before or is obvious, but: Is there a straightforward way for me to move images (the rights to which I control) from to Wikitravel Shared, so that they can be used conveniently by the other Wikitravels? Or is it necessary to manually re-upload them? I can see justifications for the latter (probably cuts down on concerns about abuse), but being a lazy cuss :-), something easier would be nice. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 22:01, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Wouldn't it? I don't think there's a way to do that now, but it would be nice -- especially for big images. --Evan 00:03, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

City Centres(sic) and Districts

I am interested in people's opinions on cities where the districts are really inner suburbs, with most of the sights concentrated in the centre and it doesn't seems productive to go all the way in creating districts. In this case, an anonymous user created Headingley and Chapel Allerton, which are part of Leeds. I moved these to discrict pages, but I don't feel we should move all the city centre info to a Leeds/City Centre page, as it seems happy enough where it is. Is this acceptable?, and could it be used in a few more cases where the main article could become the de-facto city centre article. -- DanielC 16:50, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

Hi Daniel, I think I responed to this in some of the Leeds 'burbs, but for the record: we only really want districts for huge cities such as Mexico City and New York (city). The other options are "neighborhoods" or stand-alone destinations for actual suburbs. I don't know Leeds well enough to say, but I'm pretty sure it's not Huge, and that folks think of Headingley et al as 'seperate' (ie the Get in sections all say "take a bus from Leeds" whereas I would not say "Take a bus from New York to get to Queens"). Hope this helps! Majnoona 10:47, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

Esperanto version

Hi I´m new to Wikitravel but have been using Wikipedia & Vikipedio (the Esperanto version of Wikipedia) for at least a couple of months. I´m certainly no expert at Esperanto but I have a basic understanding of it (which is not hard) and I was wondering what other Wikitravellers think about starting Wikitravel in Esperanto. I would be able to help out with it, although I would feel better if there was someone better at it than me who was in charge. I don´t know what´s involved in being an admin, but if it´s no harder than being a user (other than a little extra time) then I´m willing to do this if no-one else is. Let me know what you all think. User:AussieDingo1983 2006-05-06 05:52 (UTC)



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