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(Yeongjong and Yongyu)
(New section: xkcd)
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Argh. I need help with screw up. Trying to rename the page but for some reason it went to the mispelled one and redirected the correct page to  it. Now I can't put the article under the correct heading. Can someone delete Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island? There's nothing there. Thanx.[[User:Paula|Paula]] 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)
Argh. I need help with screw up. Trying to rename the page but for some reason it went to the mispelled one and redirected the correct page to  it. Now I can't put the article under the correct heading. Can someone delete Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island? There's nothing there. Thanx.[[User:Paula|Paula]] 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)
== xkcd ==
Wikitravel is mentioned in a xkcd [] webcomic! --[[User:Flip666|Flip666]] [[User_talk:Flip666|<sup>writeme!</sup>]] &bull; 09:16, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Revision as of 14:20, 25 February 2009

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Technical requests page on Wikitravel Shared instead.



Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

If a conversation does not fit into any specific talk page, it should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here 3 months after the last comment in that discussion.

Stuff that's been moved to specific talk pages:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Should we sweep this out? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 03:20, 16 August 2006 (EDT)
Ugh, this place is getting messy and this is the one page I hate to attempt to organize. Anyone want to take a stab at cleaning it up? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 18:29, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
How do you sweep the pub? What are the rules? Anything older than a certain date? There is stuff on here that is many, many months old. Where would be a "place more appropriate" to move the discussions to? Kire1975 01:54, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
Also, I am using the Safari browser, from Apple, on my Windows Vista computer. For some reason the scroll bar on the right side of my edit screen isn't working properly, so the only way to get way down to the bottom of the screen is to grab some text and pull my cursor down to the bottom of the page. It gets really awkward. Cleaning up the pub could help me out with this problem. thanks, Kire1975 02:14, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

One more thing, when I click 'save" on the edit page, it takes a while to processs. Kire1975 04:31, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

How to sweep pub?

That's a good question! Our archiving explanation at the top of this page has become very convoluted—I'm honestly not sure how to sweep the pub anymore. Can anyone explain the revised process? --Peter Talk 00:18, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I nominate receveli's "request for help" below to be swept out of the pub. the problem is solved. how is it done? the shared wikitravel pages has a pub cellar. Should we create something like that? Kire1975 22:19, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

I have got the broom out today and swept out some of the older stuff. Mostly into the archive pages but, where relevant, into Talk Pages for the destination under discussion. Where I've done the latter I have marked the discussion as "Swept in from the travellers pub" Tarr3n 07:44, 2 September 2008 (EDT)


I wanted to ask the Wikitravel community for a little help with a wiki that I'm trying to get launched - Wikimmigrant. I'm hoping that Wikimmigrant can complement Wikitravel by providing detailed immigration/visa rules and regulations for every nation on Earth and, possibly one day - Mars. A detailed account of explaining the application process and visa fees for every nation is obviously going to fall way outside the scope of Wikitravel's goals to provide relevant travel information, but for those of us in the world that want to up and go to Poland, Canada, Singapore, Mongolia, or India from the comfort (or discomfort - that's why Wikimmigrant will help explain obtaining refugee status in different countries) of our native lands, we should have a way to access that information in a central place.

Yes, there are expat websites that can give a person information and guidance on obtaining a work or residence permit for Country A, but, as we know with travel information, information can change quickly. So, if the parliament of Country A changes it's immigration laws, then the MediaWiki software will allow anyone with that knowledge to update Wikimmigrant and that information would be instantaneously available to the world, which is not true for many expat websites.

Anyhow, I could specifically use help developing policies, templates, and articles. I'd especially appreciate any help from someone with knowledge of CSS to design a spiffy main page. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 21:42, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Does this need a "co-operating with ..." page? Mention in an index? Pashley 09:58, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Copenhagen/Østerbro Star nomination

I'm hard at work giving Copenhagen a huge notch up in the scale, hoping to make it DoTM when it hosts the World Outgames in August - And i think my home district, has ended up quite good. So please head over and comment on the Star Nominations page - and while you're at it Sheki needs a few more comments too. Cheers Sertmann 23:53, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Picture from Wikimedia Commons

I realize there was a recent article adressing this, but I'm still confused (and didn't want my comment lost/not seen in that long section). So my question is, if it is a picture found in the Wikimedia commons, it is ok to use? I would like to use this [1] image with a GFDL permission. I would like to use it in the Nagorno-Karabakh article to show which parts are close to the front line (and thus more dangerous to travel). If the file type is not compatible(I think that's what someone said in the section on adding pictures), I can easily take a screenshot and cut out the image...but would that be ok? Thanks for the advice! AHeneen 18:32, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Unfortunately no, we cannot use that image, because it is not licensed under a creative commons license (e.g., CC-by-SA). GFDL is not compatible with Wikitravel's licensing. Basically, you can upload images to Shared if your are the author, or if they have licensing that appears in the pulldown menu on the upload screen. And more detailed information is at shared:How to upload files.
I'm sorry to hear that this is confusing so many of our contributors. Maybe we should write some sort of a quick version on image licensing? --Peter Talk 21:20, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
Also, especially when it comes to pictures on Commons, it may be worthwhile to send a message to the file's author (on Commons or on Wikipedia or by e-mail or whatever) asking if they'd be willing to multi-license a GFDLed image as CC-by-SA. GFDL is not a very good license for images anyway; it was originally designed for documentation. Multi-licensing it as CC-by-SA is much more re-use friendly. LtPowers 08:09, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
I think the previous discussion under Image Licensing made it as clear as it can be. I suggest incorporating it into the documentation. I also think it would be better to have one documentation section giving all the information any contributor needs to know about image licensing, uploading, and policies, and which doesn't make any assumptions about what the contributor already knows (example: don't assume that contributors know that to use images on Wikitravel they have to upload them to Wikitravel Shared first). Sailsetter 10:29, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, a basic guide here on :en with links to the relevant articles on shared might be a very good idea. --Peter Talk 13:58, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

See also Wikitravel_talk:Copyleft#GFDL_and_Creative_Commons and discussion on Shared linked from there. Pashley 10:06, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Where is the community?

OK, this maybe be a bit provocative and cocky, for someone who has been here a short time as i have. But hey, bear with me - I'm new :). While I've become absolutely enchanted by the scope of this site, and really impressed by the daily number of contributions. I'm quite disappointed with the community involvement of the place - it seems a bit like a large number of "anonymous" contributors, and very little soul - with the exception of few Sysops, and in particular Peter, whom i think is absolutely amazing, and it was his praise that made me want to do continuous contributions here.

Please note that I'm not targeting anyone (not least the janitors - it's obviously working, since the articles are all nice and clean). And granted, I'm a bit disappointed by the fact that my own star nomination which I worked really hard on, didn't get any more comments after two weeks. But still - the collaboration of the month is not working - which it really should at a place like this. I've been trying to patrol new edits - but can't keep up, because very few users seem to be chipping in doing this, and what about the welcomes? - which i think is one of the best things about this place (I tried doing some myself for the first time today). Did we loose all the fiery souls with the IB take over?

Come on people, you don't need to have sysop rights, to chip in on the janitorial work around here, look around the talk pages, welcome new users, join in on the different expeditions, talk in the pub, contribute with your opinion in the Destination of the month, of the beaten patch and star nominations sections - Make a name for yourself - please help give the place some soul and grow the community :)

- Stefan (Sertmann 20:14, 18 October 2008 (EDT))

AMEN! Edmontonenthusiast 20:05, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Pennsylvania School Projects

Just a heads up. Some teacher in Pennsylvania has apparently sent all her students here to each to their own article on a small town in Pennsylvania. I've been trying to keep up with style edits and removing copyrighted material, but it's a bit overwhelming. Could use some help. Texugo 01:36, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Nice concept though! :) I'll try to keep a look out once a day or so... Sertmann 06:44, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Is that why I just had to revert our Pennsylvania region names and delete a bunch of related copyvios from VisitPA? LtPowers 14:14, 20 October 2008 (EDT)


Semi-protection may be in order here until whoever keeps vandalizing it (from a plethora of IP addresses) gets bored. I'd do it myself but my admin buttons aren't showing. LtPowers 14:14, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Yet another ridiculous problem in the wake of the disastrous server move weeks ago. You'll see your sysop buttons if you use IE instead of firefox, but you can also access the functions through the history tab. Click history, then replace the word "history" in the resulting url with "protect" or "delete" and voila. What's more frustrating is trying to move pages... --Peter Talk 15:43, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Well I wasn't going to point any fingers and was happy to let someone else handle it until the login issue was resolved. Nonetheless, I fired up IE and took care of it. Obviously not an ideal long-term solution, though. LtPowers 17:16, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Talk:Florida isn't the only one, the same vandal(s?) have hit San Francisco/SoMa, the Chicago skyline guide, and Soma Bay. I dunno about the others, but San Francisco/SoMa I think could use some protection if anyone can access their admin features, because it's been the target of repeated vandalism. PerryPlanet 19:01, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
Done, done, and done. This is shaping up to be a potential problem, though, if this guy is willing to put his ads up on any old page. I was hoping it was just a Florida thing. Blocking the IPs won't help because they change so frequently. LtPowers 08:55, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
I know this is probably gonna come out the wrong way, but i work at a insurance company, and until January 1st, often have long vacant night shifts where i just sit around and wait for a fire or flooding to happen. I'd be happy happy to jump in and help with the admin stuff, and have my rights revoked when the FF bug is resolved (we use IE6 at work). I know this is far from ideal since I obviously don't really have complete grasp of the inner workings of this place yet, but I just felt like i wanted to extend the offer if you guys are feeling overworked - and in any case I'll just try to keep up with normal access stuff at the recent changes page Sertmann 20:21, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Now you stay quiet...

The map of Korea was made for me at my request, so there is no copyright infringement. Now I've asked administrators (Jpkotai[sic] and CJensen[sic])how to proceed in proving this but strangely it is only when I can improve the page do I not get a rapid response. It's been 3 days and I have yet to be told how to "unviolate" the map. [2]. Again, what do you need? and where should I post it?Paula 20:48, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

I probably can't help, because I'm asking questions about maps (Talk:Edmonton). But I will tell you I 'gree in the fact that it does sometimes take longer to get a respones. I know it's silly. Please, guys, reply to PAULAS specific issuue! Edmontonenthusiast 20:53, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Paula, you need to get actual permission from the copyright owner to release the map under the terms of the Creative-Commons Share-Alike license. Copyright is a nasty area of the law where the Copyright owner is presumed to own and reserve all rights except when he Very Explicitly makes a rights grant. Coincidentally, this is exactly what I said in my vote for deletion, though I happened to use fewer words. -- Colin 21:23, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
Colin: I know. And yet again, you have not answered the question. Is the question that difficult to understand? I KNOW you want me to show you I have permission. My question is, HOW? Do you need a signed letter from the president? or just a letter from the creator? something with the letterhead? WHAT?...And this is exactly what I wrote in response to you 4 days ago. I have a written statement from the creator that I'll post with the upload of the map. If that's not good enough, I'm sure you'll let me know.Paula 21:32, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
You should get a permission, an email from the original creator will do, explicitly stating that he or she agrees to release the image into a license accepted on wikitravel - and then copy the content of the email into the image description page - we assume good faith around here. Sertmann 21:34, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
I responded yesterday at shared:vfd, which is a much better place for this conversation – cacahuate talk 22:06, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Thank you Sertmann!Paula 20:06, 26 November 2008 (EST)

A question.... It's about maps...

Hey, I was wondering if it's ok to make a map in Photoshop Elements, and then save it as a PNG? Is that ok?

Edmontonenthusiast 23:44, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

You want something that creates an SVG file... we then make a png version to use in articles, but we also upload the SVG, which allows for the community to work on maps together and update them when needed. Your time will definitely be better spent and your map will last longer if it's made as an SVG. The latest version Inkscape (free) is the preferred way to create them, but Illustrator I think also would work fine. I'm glad you're showing an interest in maps, it's definitely a bit of a learning curve involved, but it's rewarding once you get the hang of it! – cacahuate talk 02:13, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
So basically...I need to make two files-SVG and PNG? Can I make SVG in PS Elements? Also how do you upload two...hjust seperatelyt? Thamks! Edmontonenthusiast 12:14, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Technically, it doesn't have to be an SVG; it could be any semi-portable vector graphics format. Unless I'm misunderstanding the policy. Photoshop is a raster graphics program, though, so it's not the best choice for creating maps. A vector graphics program, such as Inkscape, allows the creation of high-quality images at any scale. If you find some of this jargon confusing, you can read up a bit on it here. LtPowers 13:50, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
I should NOT have to install programs to make maps. I don't get why I can't use Photoshop Elements. To me it's absurd. But, then again, I may be missing something. Please, do explain. And am I right, I need to make a PNG and SVG format and upload the two? And, also, can you make SVG format in PS Elements? THANKS! Edmontonenthusiast 13:54, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
Also, where do you get, LNKSCAPE? Edmontonenthusiast 13:55, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
You can create maps in any format you wish, including png's, but the community here on Wikitravel, prefer to have them in svg format - as the work almost ends up in higher quality, and other users can pick up on your work and improve it if they wish (which is the whole point of a wiki), you can't do that with a file created in Adobe Elements. Inkscape is available for free here[3] and illustrator (expensive) here[4] - Sertmann 16:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Thankyou, and what other programs give the SVG option. Or...could you just make it in PS Elements then open it in something else in which it can be made a SVG. Or you could saeve it as a jpeg, then convert it to SVG¿ How aboht those/ THanks! Edmontonenthusiast 17:35, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast
hmmm, how do I explain this... SVG's and PNG's are two completely different ways of creating an image. Because of this, you can't use a program that makes files like png, gif or jpg to make a svg image (I'm speaking in somewhat over simplified terms here). A program like Elements or Photoshop works in pixels, where each dot on your screen is assigned a color, while programs like Inkscape or Illustrator works in vectors, which you might remember from your math classes, this means you don't work in pixels but with elements - this also means you can scale a svg image to every size you wish, and still have it look exactly the same way. We prefer svg's exactly because you work with elements, that way you can change the line of a street, text, sign or anything else in the image, without having to delete it, and use the pen tool to redraw things pixel by pixel.
It does take some time getting used too (it will seem awfully stupid and complicated at first), but once you get the hang of it, it's a lot more intuitive way to draw something and anything, you will become much faster at drawing things, and the things you draw will look a lot better. Which is why almost all professional designers use Adobe illustrator or similar programs to do their designs. So after a while. the time you spend learning this, will come back 10 fold once you get the hang of it. Sertmann 18:03, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Actually is there any place it would be appropriate to stick the above explanation (i'd expand it a bit, and fix the awful punctuation), so it's available to other new users? Sertmann 18:12, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Wikitravel:How to draw a map already covers most of this... it could use some updating, but it's there. To Ed, you only have to create the map once, as an SVG. then it will have layers, will be high quality, and will be editable in the future by other contributors who can improve it and update it when things change. There's an option in Inkscape to export your SVG as a PNG, which takes about 10 seconds, and that's what we use within articles. So you only have to create the map once, but yes, you end up uploading 2 different versions – cacahuate talk 18:26, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
Thansk for all the commmments! Edmontonenthusiast 18:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

Protected Status?

So I would like to know if, like on Wikipedia, protected and semi-protected status is available. I ask this, because there has been a bit (not obnoxiously excessive...but a bit) of touting on the Orlando article from people who are not Wikitravellers (ie edits list their IP address). I fully understand how Wikitravel is a wiki and thus everyone can contribute, but I would like to keep things in a consistent format and IP-address-people seem to do nothing but tout and what I'm about to describe. For those who know about "Orlando"'s more like a small metropolis than a city (for instance the city proper has 220k residents but the metropolis has 1.2-1.5mil residents...not including far-flung suburbs, but just the contiguous urban area) such that a lot of people keep adding locations/attractions which are outside the city proper (myself included). If those of us Wikitravellers want to clean up the page and bring it to Wikitravel standards, we don't want businesses and naive IP-address-people to come along and add stuff outside the city proper. If protection is available, semi-protection would be nice...and if not, are there any plans/desire to add such? Oh, and to those who view the page...I have yet to clean up the touting, since it only came to my attention today and am to tired to do so. Thanks for yall's answers AHeneen, a member of the Wikitravel:Florida_Expedition AHeneen 02:10, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

We use protection very sparingly, usually when spambots are involved. We definitely never consider protecting pages based on misguided efforts, rather we try and guide new and anon users towards learning the right place to put things... when you do move the listings out, leave descriptive edit summaries so that users who look at the history can see why and where you moved the info to. I know it's annoying and sometimes time-consuming, but that's sorta how it's gotta be, we can't write these guides with just a handful of us, we need those new and anon contributors :) – cacahuate talk 02:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel Dutch

message to all the dutch contributors of Wikitravel: There is also the dutch version of Wikitravel where you can contribute in your own mother tongue, we really need more contributors. Hoofdpagina Wikitravel --Canshun 04:03, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

How am I doing?

Could you check me districtifying Edmonton, and well, give me a progress report if you will, of how I am doing, I have done most of it. Edmontonenthusiast 14:10, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

What does this thing mean?

What does the number in brackets on RECENT CHANGES mean? like (diff) (hist) . . Talk:Edmonton‎; 16:48 . . (+259) . . Edmontonenthusiast (Talk | contribs) (→I was wondering about maps...Yeah, again crazy me... - ) See the bolded!Edmontonenthusiast 12:50, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

It means that that many characters (letters) have been added to the article in that edit. Negative numbers mean they've been deleted. And bold is used to highlight large changes in either directions. Jpatokal 17:42, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
Thanks, mate:)! Edmontonenthusiast 18:34, 26 October 2008 (EDT)


Why is it that when (sometimes) you do an edit to a page. And then look at it at a later time, and that stuff is not on there, but reloading the page brings that back..or sometimes you have to go into history and click the latest version to see it. How come that is? Keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 19:36, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

Some else may have the technical answer, but since the server relocation a few weeks ago, the interaction with the browser cache seems to be wrong. A forced reload on the browser solves the problem, just do a SHIFT-Reload from your browser to get the latest page. --Inas 20:20, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
Heh, thanks. I know how to reload. Any plans of when to get this fixed? For people unfamiliar, they may not (always) be able to see recent changes. I know this doesn't allways happen but still. Keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 20:23, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
Perhaps this is a bit late to the discussion. MediaWiki uses page caching, to speed up the response when reading articles. After an edit, it sometimes takes a bit of time for the updates to a page to appear in (ie be written to) the cache page, as that is a background server task. Going into the history and clicking on the latest version presents the version direct from the database, not the cache. (NB: The page addresses are different.) To purge the cache and force the new page to appear immediately you can go to the page history and in your browser address line, replace action=history with action=purge BUT the easiest way to do this is to click on an edit link of the page, again, scroll right down to the very bottom of the edit form and click on the link that says Purge Cache for this page. and the page will be purged and the most recent version will be displayed. (Warning: Do not edit the edit form if you want to purge the page as the edits are lost. Save your edits first.) -- Huttite 04:28, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Article Hierarchies

How much information to add to a lower level article that is already in a high level article? For example every article in Australia for coastal cities seems to have the same information on staying safe at the beach, sunscreen, swim between the flags, what to do in rips. There are three possible approaches I can see.

  1. Include the info at every level of the hierarchy
  2. Include the info at the top level only, and assume that every visitor to the city/town level article should be aware of the info at the top level
  3. Include a link to the top level information at the city/town level, when it is relevant to the City/Town.

I'm inclined to do the third. I know we want the articles to be printable, etc, but there is some information which is contained in the guide that should be accurate and verifiable, and it is certainly easier to do this if the information isn't repeated 100+ times in every sub-article. Any other opinions? --Inas 20:00, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

In general info should go at the highest level that it applies to... we don't need to describe what an autorickshaw is on every Indian city page, just in the India article. However if there's something specific about rickshaws in Bangalore that is relevant to the traveler, then it should be note on the Bangalore page. With safety info, I think pretty much the same should apply. But if riptides are a particular hazard at a specific beach in Australia, it should be noted I think on the city/beach page too – cacahuate talk 12:10, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Yes, the third option is the way to go: generic/universal info at country level, and reminders plus links in from lower pages when applicable. Duplicating eg. safety info is still OK in my book (it changes rarely if ever), but fast-changing/extensive stuff like currency info, local cuisine etc should be on the main page only. Jpatokal 15:49, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Do we really need links in every applicable article? It already leads to much duplication, and one-time contributors frequently expand every mention in lower level with some details that should belong to higher level (and sometimes are there already). See Spain and its regions / cities: Barcelona, Bilbao, San Sebastian as an example of much duplication. Why not the first option? --DenisYurkin 18:47, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
No, just when it's really necessary and applicable. If riptides are strong all along the California coast, then discuss that at California. But if they are particularly strong in Santa Barbara, then it should be noted on that page too, especially since it's a safety issue. – cacahuate talk 19:47, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
In tropical Australia just about every article has some mention of Crocodiles. The information in every article is different, with different advice, and a different assessment of the relative chances of becoming supper. This info is really quite important, almost to the point that it should probably be referenced. Again, I might look at just including a reference to the common information in the higher level article, and any specific information for the location in the lower level. I'll see if it results in too much ugliness. --Inas 01:39, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
I agree with the above comments that advice should be at the highest level (usually this would mean country, but for big cities sometimes at the city level.) I don't see the need for cross referencing in most cases, though it sometimes may be appropriate, usually through a brief internal link. In particular, I think (though it often isn't done, which is why I'm mentioning it) that comments on food, safety, and scams should be put on the highest level unless they refer to special local conditions: if moussakas and souvlaki are described in the Greece food section, there's no need to mention them in the Mykonos section, unless you're recommending someplace there that does these dishes especially well. But local specialties should be described on the specific local page rather than the national one. Sailsetter 19:19, 16 November 2008 (EST)
Methinks that if we are going to want to say or refer to the same information in hundreds of articles, and it is going to be (almost) the same thing every time, then we need to say it once, in one place, definitively. Most Safety information about beaches in Australia is probably going to be similar to that in New Zealand, Hawaii, California, South Africa and even Europe. If there is country specific variation in information this might still be able to be included in a general article. I think this falls into the Other ways of seeing travel and Travel topics. I would suggest, for this type of "we cannot stress this enough" or "if you ignore this you could die" safety information, a separate article that can be linked to is needed. Simply referring to the information within a country or regional article, or assuming it will be referred to even if it is not mentioned is inadequate. -- Huttite 04:55, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Image Uploads

Is there any easy way to move pictures uploaded here, to shared - or do you have to vfd them, download them, upload them on shared with a different name, and change the link it the article? Sertmann 06:16, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

You have to re-upload them to Shared, but once you do that you can speedy delete it here, noting in the edit summary that you moved to shared. There's no need to change the title either, it can remain the same – cacahuate talk 12:13, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Hmmm, don't I need admin privileges to speedy anything? Sertmann 15:57, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
Yes... so you'll be able to do yourself most likely after another week :) If there's some you want done now, leave a note on my talk page and I can do for you, or you can also just list them on VFD and an admin will do – cacahuate talk 19:43, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

I've been wondering... if the goal is to have all images uploaded at shared, what purpose is served by still allowing uploads to :en? The <font size=HUGE> warning is routinely ignored. - Dguillaime 14:45, 23 February 2009 (EST)

page credits

what are they (like at the bottom of the page) and how do you get on 'em? keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 23:59, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

By editing the page, you get added to the credit. You full name will appear if you give it in preferences, or your nickname if you don't. Eventually, after many people have edited the page after you, your name will just be listed under the "others" link. Quick answer, its done automatically, and you don't have to do anything. --Inas 01:02, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
Oh that's so cool. Thanks! Keep smiling, Edmontonenthusiast 11:08, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Colored text on project pages

I just opened the Votes for deletion page, only to find it cluttered with bold text, colors and what not - and this annoys the hell out of me, since it ruins my overview of the page (I toned it down a bit now - without asking, check here for old version). Is there a concensus out there that this is a no-no on Project pages (and articles for that matter), since a quick overview is pretty critical for those of us fulfulling janitorial duties (without having to fight a path through a rainbow). Sertmann 18:49, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Guess I should put my 6.7809292999405338540 cents worth into this :>! I am the person who coloured up the page, heh. I honestly think it's inappropriate for articles themselves, but talk/user pages should have this allowed, it add a bit of personality to it and just something neat to look at, rather than the uniform. If it really was so bad, we really shouldn't have that option. I don't know...I was originally just testing out the colour, then I liked it so I tried it with other stuff:P. Also, if it was so bad, why don't we confront cacahuate-who usually changes the colour of the signature and ask caca to stop? I don't know. Just my stupid thoughts. Happy day of the dead, Edmontonenthusiast 18:55, 31 October 2008 (EDT)!
What you do with your signature is up to you for the most part, but a few of us mentioned yesterday in the very conversation where you learned how to color text that it was probably undesirable to the community to use it outside of signatures. Before introducing new things like that we tend to discuss it and agree upon it as well :) – cacahuate talk 19:54, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
I guess I am like a rebel to you all ;). Happy Day of the Dead, Edmontonenthusiast 19:57, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Map mashup

It would be nice to be able to see attractions, hostels and stuff on a map, even if not yet within the Wikitravel website. A web mashup would not be difficult to make if Wikitravel data was available in a somewhat standardized way. If every article uses templates such as <sleep> with an "address" field, then it is possible to transform these addresses into coordinates, for instance with the Google API. Is someone working on anything like this ? Thanks ! Nicolas1981 08:27, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

I've been thinking about that a bit too, although in a different way - I think it would be way cool, to harvest coordinates (e.g from google's API) and mix wikitravel listings with in a google maps type layer. I'd also really like to see a mix of googlemaps and wikitravel for the iPhone/iPod touch. Sertmann 14:55, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
Cool, let's work together! :-) Independently of the user interface we are going to provide, there are some tasks we can do in common:
  • write a parser that would extract all addresses from Wikitravel articles. This is a bit tricky because Wikitravel does not seem to provide database dumps, or have I missed them ?
  • fix the many syntax errors found in the <sleep> and similar listings.
  • geocoordinate the addresses through the Google API.
Would be so cool for people to find nearby cheap restaurants, or attractions within a daytrip distance. Cheers Nicolas1981 23:32, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
I have just read that nobody ever obtained data dumps [5]... Looks like Wikitravel is not so free as I expected :-( This seriously reduces my willingness to implement cool applications using Wikitravel data. It is a pity :-( Nicolas1981 09:58, 2 November 2008 (EST)
The Google Maps API terms of use limits using the Geocoder in this way. --Inas 19:09, 2 November 2008 (EST)
Sorry, what exactly are you referencing when writing "this way" ? Do you mean that what will be useful to us is limited to the Geocoder part of the Google API ? Cheers :-) Nicolas1981 02:09, 3 November 2008 (EST)
Instead of reinventing the wheel, take a look at shared:Tech:Listing map extension, as well as Wikitravel:How to create a map for existing WT/OSM mashup solutions. There's no need to use the Google API, OpenLayers lets you do layering very easily using OSM or other public data sources (cf. my pet project OpenFlights). Jpatokal 07:15, 9 November 2008 (EST)


I know this may sound like so dumb, but, what is the point really of showing that an edit is minor. Sorry if it brings up stuff/is stupid. Keep smiling ,ee talk 12:31, 4 November 2008 (EST).

Minor edits can be excluded from your watchlist. Some users don't want to see spelling corrections and other less-substantial changes appearing on their watchlists. LtPowers 12:33, 4 November 2008 (EST)
No I don't mind seeing it I just don't see the actually idea behind it...but thats me! Keep smiling, ee talk 21:17, 4 November 2008 (EST).
I tick the "Minor Edit" box if the meaning of the article doesn't change and/or I can explain the edit in the edit comments. By hiding minor edits you can see the significant edits that you might want to check. Think of minor edits as maintenance, or pulling the weeds out of the garden. -- Huttite 05:04, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Welcome messages

I just noticed how much we've been slacking off with giving new users the welcome message on their talk page. I think it is important-- I remember when I started here, Andrew gave me a welcome message almost immediately after I created my account, and it showed me that, yes, there are people out there paying attention, there is a community here. I think it's a good thing that can encourage new people to contribute more, so I want to ask everyone to pitch in to keep up with that. If you click on Recent changes and you see that a new account has been created, please just take a moment to create a welcome on their talk page. It doesn't take long at all. All you have to do is put:

{{subst:welcome}} -- ~~~~

If all the regular users here will just get in the habit of this, then no one will have to sit and do dozens and dozens of them in a row like I just did, plus new users may see the message during their first session and be inspired to come back for more sessions later. Thanks! Texugo 02:22, 8 November 2008 (EST)

What I usually do is let them edit a little-then I can make a comment that isnt totally uniform about their edits. Similar to my first message, thanks Jim. Keep smiling, ee talk 22:37, 8 November 2008 (EST).
The bigger problem is that most new users are not getting any message at all. Texugo 06:21, 9 November 2008 (EST)
I agree that people should be welcomed more, and I also agree with User:Edmontonenthusiast that we should probably wait until they actually make an edit. When I'm looking at Recentchanges I find the red or blue talk page link helpful to determine whether someone's new or not, and welcoming people before they make an edit confuses this. You all probably know this already, but you can go to Special:Contributions/newbies to see all the newcomers who have made contributions lately. Looks like they've all been welcomed, so good work to User:Edmontonenthusiast and User:Sertmann. JYolkowski 20:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Whoa, I had not seen that special page before! Really useful, thanks! --Peter Talk 23:12, 11 November 2008 (EST)
I meant to get in here and offer the possibility that it might not be a very good use of time to welcome all new users, for a couple of reasons.
1) most newly registered users aren't actually editing, so they probably just thought they had to register to use the site;
2) a semi-custom message, that at best gives advice or guidance, and at least a thank you for particular work, is much better than what looks like an automated message—that sort of community contact is really helpful in getting good new contributors to stick around;
3) welcome messages to users that are violating Wikitravel policy without letting them know that they are doing something wrong is potentially harmful, as they might take that as a cue to spread their policy violations further.
So, I'd actually question whether going through the new user log to hit everyone with a welcome message at once is useful. I'd argue that it would be far more useful to make sure everyone in the Special:Contributions/newbies list gets a custom message. --Peter Talk 17:07, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I agree, I think it makes the most sense to wait until a user minimally makes an edit and hence shows up in Special:Contributions/newbies, for both those reasons and the one I mentioned above. JYolkowski 18:01, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I agree. 1 personalised messages to a user starting to make constructive edits is worth 100 generic welcome messages to new registrations. --Inas 18:23, 11 December 2008 (EST)
A Bot could be welcoming users that simply create an account and nobody would be any the wiser. I would suggest that a new user is only welcomed after they make their first edit(s) to an article or comment on a talk page, as you can then assess the quality of their work or questions they have. (Editing their own user page does not count, unless it is clear they are asking to be welcomed, or need to be stopped from doing something stupid.) You can then add a personal comment that would provide the user with additional guidance. Leaving the talk page unpopulated until the new user makes an edit means it is immediately obvious you are dealing with a new user, who may misunderstand or be ignorant of the guidelines, as the talk page link is red. I don't think it hurts to wait a while before welcoming a new user. -- Huttite 05:22, 13 January 2009 (EST)
This has been nagging my hindbrain for a week, now. It seems to me that we need to formalise the welcoming process a bit more. Could this become part of an expedition?
How about the Check-in Expedition? Just as they check your ticket or booking (and baggage) when you arrive at the check-in counter at an airport, bus, or train terminal, car hire company, or your accommodation, when you are travelling, the Wikitravel Check-in Expedition would promote the proper check-in formalities for all new users that edit their first page and all new articles. That is add a welcome message to guide the user (check the ticket/booking) and bring all new destination articles to at least an outline template status (luggage destination labels on the bags). -- Huttite 04:17, 21 January 2009 (EST)
No further comments? Perhaps I put my Check-in Expedition suggestion on the back-burner for a while? - Huttite 08:13, 31 January 2009 (EST)


I recently added two nominee's to the Wikitravel:Collaborations of the month in North America. I have yet to get a response excluding my own. I've even asked people in their talk to voice their opinions, I wasn't like doing it for just people to get comments I was doing it because I think they could give a good opinion. Thats all. Now I just don't get it. Keep smiling, ee talk 22:39, 8 November 2008 (EST).

Kid, you still need to learn the virtue of patience :o) That being said, I've made an entry there myself, including some ideas to try and change the dysfunctional concept, and would appreciate some comments. Sertmann 23:04, 8 November 2008 (EST)
At least you have 2 comments. I have NONE for two. Keep smiling, ee talk 23:13, 8 November 2008 (EST).

Maps - Open Street Map

Hiya there! I was just wondering, I know there is Open Street Map, but to use reference for creating maps, is there any other site? I mean OSM is fine, it's just, if you want tto use if for reference, a lot of the maps are incomplete. Keep smiling, ee talk 15:32, 9 November 2008 (EST).

It depends. For U.S. locations, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) has satellite images and topographic maps that are in the public domain (anything from the U.S. government is public domain). I don't know the situation in Canada. You might want to check out the NASA WorldWind application, but it's mostly going to have images of the U.S. LtPowers 16:41, 9 November 2008 (EST)
Good to know for US Cities. Anybody know about Canadian cities? Keep smiling, ee talk 17:07, 9 November 2008 (EST).
Check out the discussion over at OSM [6]. Finding compatible data is a pursued over there, and the chances are if there is an available source someone has either loaded it, or is looking into loading it. --Inas 18:44, 9 November 2008 (EST)
Also Wikitravel_talk:Copyleft#GFDL_and_Creative_Commons Pashley 20:21, 9 November 2008 (EST)
Hmm I don't se how that wiki link thing's helpful-sorry! Happy first day of snow in Edmonton, ee talk 11:37, 11 November 2008 (EST).

A question about docents that I'd like to have an answer.

I guess people thatve been a docent for a while would be the best for this, but I was wondering, is there a really large ammount of people asking questions or is it as I presume-small? Keep smiling, ee talk 17:21, 9 November 2008 (EST).

Wikitravel talk:Docents#Is this working?. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:24, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Sorry - Images

Sorry for making another topic, I really am, but I want to get to the bottom of this. I really want to know-I've waited for a couple days, but do my images (most notably in Edmonton) look low-quality? Keep smiling, ee talk 17:52, 9 November 2008 (EST).

The technical quality (resolution, color range, etc) is just fine, and some of your pics (eg. Image:Winspear.JPG, Image:Skyline_wintaa.JPG) are IMHO artistically good as well. But photography is one of those arts that takes a lifetime to master, and you should pay a little more attention to light and framing, see eg. [7]. And patience comes in handy too, since great photos only happen when the conditions are just right... Jpatokal 03:54, 10 November 2008 (EST)
So other than those two, basically, they suck ;)? Keep smiling, ee talk 13:22, 10 November 2008 (EST).
Pictures are not just "good" or "bad", and beauty is the eye of the beholder. Any picture that accurately represents a local scene and/or makes the reader go "Ooh, that looks nice" is a plus in my book. Jpatokal 02:33, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Thanks, in yours or others opinions though, I'd like to know. Happy first day of snow in Edmonton, ee talk 11:38, 11 November 2008 (EST).

More than a babel?

Sorry if it shouldn't be discussed here, I couldn't find another place. Anyways if you check out some of the user pages in Wikipedia, like: [8], [9], [10], and [11] and look at the spots with babel's, you'd see there is a lot more other stuff. I was wondering if it is possible to have the same in WikiTravel, or to implement it? I think it'd be neat. Keep smiling, ee talk 19:16, 10 November 2008 (EST).

I like the 'language' the second user has in his Babel: "du-0 This person does not understand dumbass (or understands it with considerable difficulties, or does not want to speak dumbass)." When that 'language' is added to Wikitravel, I will certainly add it to my profile!  :)  :) AHeneen 00:53, 11 November 2008 (EST)
While I like the babel, Ithink we can get more and personailize! Good idea? Happy first day of snow in Edmonton, ee talk 11:33, 11 November 2008 (EST).
I agree. And lucky hometown has seen snow only once in recorded history...about a half inch (a little more than 1cm) in "first day of snow" for me!! AHeneen 13:08, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Hehe, here' it'll probably melt tomorrow. It'll probably be off and on until Dec 20 and then it'll stay until about March. Keep smiling, ee talk 13:12, 11 November 2008 (EST).
It's easy enough to add languages into the Babel in Wikitravel. I did it a while ago with Welsh (cy). I just copied the format for all the templates from one of the existing languages, and nicked the definitions for each level from Babel Wikipedia. Obviously if you're trying to set it up for a language you're not that fluent in yourself it makes it much easier if it's already there on Wikipedia. Tarr3n 03:03, 12 November 2008 (EST)
I don't think EE's looking for more languages. I think he/she'd like to have userboxes for other topics like those that are rampant on Wikipedia. LtPowers 09:51, 12 November 2008 (EST)
Eaxactly! I know about the languages. Keep smiling, ee talk 10:30, 12 November 2008 (EST).

So, would people be interested in having this-or is it already on this site? Keep smiling ,ee talk 00:51, 14 November 2008 (EST).

I'd really prefer we didn't. The consensus here has always been against userboxes. Just one reason why I'd prefer we don't is that it would mess up the special:allpages template list. --Peter Talk 01:00, 14 November 2008 (EST)
So then why can Wikipedia have it? TO me it's stupid, its a wonderful oportunity! Why do we need plain jane's when we can have better (not directed necessarily at WT). I don't get it. Seems like your missing out. Keep smiling, ee talk 10:30, 14 November 2008 (EST).
Missing out on what? This is a place for people to write a travel guide, sure we can have a little fun doing it, but this isn't really meant to be a travel version of mySpace. That said, I did create one for my user page, and I wouldn't be against travel-oriented ones like "this user is a couch surfer" or whatever, but I would hate to see it become like Wikipedia too, with endless irrelevant crap – cacahuate talk 04:03, 15 November 2008 (EST)

I found out ya can do more than a babel on Wikitravel, you just gotta know what you want and be aware you can't have the same options as Wikipedia. Check my page. ZOMG meteor on the prairies yesterday!!edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 01:34, 22 November 2008 (EST).

Collaboration of the month revamp

My best intentions of trying to fix the current travesty, ended up in complete and miserable failure. But if nothing else, it shook things up a bit - and there is new discussion of a revamp that have been started on the talk page. it would probably get a bit more interesting, if people knew it was there, and contributed a bit to the (as of now) pretty one sided discussion. Sertmann 02:45, 11 November 2008 (EST)


Don't know if anyone else saw this [12] article in the Sunday Times this week, entitled Why mobile phones are the new travel guides. I hadn't heard of Wikitude [13] before reading the article. It's a system that searches Wikipedia based on location. On the website you can type in an address and search for Wikipedia entries close to it. The Times article was focussed on the version that has been developed for the new generation of mobile phones (US: cell-phones) that have GPS functionality, so it will automatically find entries close to your location and show them on a map. Neat. And surely if it linked up with Wikitravel it would be even more useful? I'm guessing that for it to work we would need to get a lot better at entering lat/long data into our articles (does this even work at the moment?). Have any of the site owners/admins already been in touch with the relevant people at Wikitude? It would be good if we could get on board before someone like Schmap [14] beat us to it. Tarr3n 03:19, 12 November 2008 (EST)

I fully support this idea. It seems tailor-made for Wikitravel. We don't have the encyclopedic detail on attractions that Wikipedia does, but what we do have is locations for restaurants, bars, and hotels that could be cross-indexed with the user's current location. LtPowers 09:54, 12 November 2008 (EST)
We are terribly short on geotagged listings though. But if anyone wants/needs an area to test, all listings of Copenhagen/Northern suburbs have been geotagged. Besides, as far as i understand IB doesn't provide access to data anyway, and assume they want money (or a way to use ads) to open up. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:57, 13 November 2008 (EST)
I'm trying to look into this a bit more today as I think with the increasing availablity of mobile phones with GPS or at least map software installed this is surely the way forward for all travel guides. Unfortunately Wikitude is currently down for a server migration. However digging about on Wikitravel for more information about how these geocodes actually work, I found Wikitravel:Geographical_data_and_metadata, which seems to imply that the existing geocoding format we are using is not usable by any other applications anyway. Or am I reading this wrong? Picking up on Stefan's point about IB allowing access to the data, I don't really understand this and frankly it would make me question my ongoing contributions to this project. Surely all the data here is licensed for re-use? Tarr3n 06:50, 19 November 2008 (EST)

wikitravel slow?¿

I don't know about you, but every morning before about 8:40 am Mountain time (7:40 Pacific, 9:40 Central, 10:40 Eastern, in Europe 4:40, 5:40pm, etc. I believe) I always have WikiTravel really slow. It takes 2 minutes to load a page. But for some reason, after that time about, it's fine. I don't know. I really don't think it's my internet company otherwise it'd be like that all the time. I guess the question is why is it doing that and if anyone else is getting it and if they have it at different times. I also have used other computers that are like that until I don't know. Keep smiling, ee talk 14:02, 12 November 2008 (EST).


I don't know how to delete pages that complete idiots have recently made. Could someone delete them and try and tell me how to for next time? Ugh this guy is pissing me off! Keep smiling, ee talk 18:05, 12 November 2008 (EST).

Only administrators can delete pages. You can nominate pages for deletion at Wikitravel:Votes for deletion, and an administrator will look it over.
Also, the answer to this question could have been easily found with a little research in the Help section. Wikitravel:How to is especially helpful. Just for future reference, you might want to check there for the answers first before posting here. :) PerryPlanet 19:07, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Edmonton/Central nom

Hey, says I can promote here! So I nominated Edmonton/Central for Star nomination, Edmonton Central Star nom! If you can, comment! Thank you! Keep smiling, ee talk 18:35, 13 November 2008 (EST).


Does a travel guide require a place to sleep? Because i have seen travel guides with nothing listed under sleep... is it easier to find places and just added them and then someone can fill in stuff? please inform me thanks --Hayfield 20:22, 13 November 2008 (EST)

It is required from my knowledge. If you see places without listings, you should research and look some up. You are not required to add all informaton from the get-go. You can do it over X amount of time. Definitely easier to just add them and wait for others to add info, but sometimes you may get anxious to add to it yourself, or worse, get impatient! Keep smiling, ee talk 21:10, 13 November 2008 (EST).
See the What is an article discussion, for ideas. Practically, however, as an example there are 322,000 place names in Australia. Adding blank templates for them without any understanding, and hoping someone will come along and fill in the details adds little or no value and would probably bring us no closer to our goals. However, if you know of a travel destination, and some information on it, but don't know if there is a place to sleep there, then add it and someone can come along with the additional details on accommodation and other stuff later. --Inas 21:16, 13 November 2008 (EST)
My policy, whenever possible, is to start off with at least one "useful" thing in any outline (sight, hotel, how to get there, whatever). Once you've got that grain of sand in there, it will turn into a pearl eventually. Jpatokal 05:10, 14 November 2008 (EST)
While exceptions can be made, users whose primary contributions are random articles for small places have a slightly higher bar to climb when creating new articles, especially when their login originates from Portland (Maine). Anything without a sleep listing that can't be justified is a candidate for (speedy) deletion, as discussed on Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:09, 14 November 2008 (EST)
I think it should be clarified that since hotel listings for Regions should be in the cities pages, and for huge cities should be in the district pages, often region and city pages end up having no listings under Sleep. Personally I think that region and huge city pages either should have the Sleep heading deleted or there should be a brief comment under it about accommodations in general with a statement that specific listings will be found in the city or district pages. But so far as I know this isn't required by policy and often isn't done, so many such pages have blank sleep headings. Sailsetter 19:08, 16 November 2008 (EST)

If you want you can have a small list of the best in a city in the main article. Keep smiling, ee talk 19:11, 16 November 2008 (EST).

I'm not sure this is a good idea. It opens the way for hotel owners and others with a special interest to give certain places a recommendation boost by putting them in the "best of" section. It also will encourage everyone to put all their listings in the main article, a tendency which is already a problem. Sailsetter 19:22, 16 November 2008 (EST)

Nah not much a good idea for sleep but it is possible. It's better for buy and do though. Keep smiling, ee talk 19:31, 16 November 2008 (EST).

Person of the month?

I was wondering if we could have something like CotMs, DotMs, and OtbPs! This would be POTM (Person of the Month) where you'd nominate someone within the first errr...10 days of a month, then in the last week, they are decided, and for the next month they are person of the month. Thought it'd be neat to have - because we always honour articles but never really the people who do that work. The person should someone who has done extensive work, friendly, helpful, and has contributed in talk pages I guess. We could work out the specifics later-just wondering if people'd be interested? Keep smiling, ee talk 21:40, 13 November 2008 (EST).

No, no, no & no. That would be totallu out of touch with the spirit of this place, and I don't want this to turn into a popularity contest --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 00:56, 14 November 2008 (EST)'s just a thought! keep smiling, ee talk 10:29, 14 November 2008 (EST).
Don't worry, had i been upset I would have smacked an exclamation mark in your face as well :)-Sertmann

Alright. And I didn't mean it as an angry exclamation marke. Well, I didn't think that it would turn into a popularity contest-but that is a very good point, it may very well happen. But I know one site in particular [15], where they have Member of the Month...there's no popularity contest, but people do nominate anonymously. But then again, that's a forum, this is something different format. But I still do think people deserve applause for all the hard work they've done. I actually would've nominated you, :)! By the way remember to sign your name. Just so much effort is put into these things, people don't even realise! Anyone who has made a star article would definitely deserve this, I am really realizing how much work they put into it. Look at Chicago...that must have been brutal! I don't think we'll see another one of those for a long time-just because of it's brutalness! Anyway, I kind of got some off topic there. But yeah. Keep smiling, ee talk 15:52, 14 November 2008 (EST).

Singling out individuals would in a way go against the spirit of community, which is a concern for many of us. In the past the barn star has been a way to single people out - the idea being that anyone can let anyone else know "I think you've done good stuff" without it turning into an "employee of the month" kind of thing since at any given time there could be no barnstars handed out, or there could be dozens. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:07, 14 November 2008 (EST)

Teaching English NOM

Hey, another nom, I made a [[Wikitravel:Star nominations#Teaching English]|star nom]] (again). It should be interesting! Keep smiling, ee talk 13:06, 14 November 2008 (EST).

Wikitravel Press books now on Amazon

Just wanted to let y'all know that Wikitravel Chicago is now available on, with the rest of the catalogue coming along shortly (by the end of the month if things go according to plan). Wikitravel books are eligible for free super saver shipping, so you can include them in any Amazon order and have them sent for free in the US only if the total is over $25. See the blog, tell your friends, stuff your stockings! Jpatokal 09:21, 15 November 2008 (EST)

What about Canadians? Canadian's have, where this book isn't listed. I guess you can only do it from lulu if you're Canadian, eh? Wait...can you even be a Canadian and sign up for lulu...looking at it you have English (US) or English (UK)...whoah am Igetting off topic! Keep smiling, ee talk 17:17, 15 November 2008 (EST).
Canadia will be added to the list after it becomes our 51st state on Jan 1st – cacahuate talk 18:36, 15 November 2008 (EST)
He!... Anyway Jani, I've actually been wondering about this for a while - are the sales figures public? Or is there anything you can say about the sales? Getting a destination up to print status takes alot of work, and my intuition tells me the sales would be pretty low for a niche guide likes this. Are a figure of 1000-2000 copies of the Chicago guide for example, completely unrealistic? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:57, 15 November 2008 (EST)
Sorry, sales figures are confidential. Jpatokal 23:08, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Well I found out anywhere in the world you can order from American Amazon...but you will hafta pay extra. I might get the Chicago one! Keep smiling, ee talk 22:11, 15 November 2008 (EST).

Unfortunately our new print partner CreateSpace supports only at the moment, but they deliver anywhere in the world. We're talking with Amazon Europe (who run .de and, but I'm not expecting to get online there anytime soon. Jpatokal 23:08, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Approval needed?

Hi, I'm new to Wikitravel and thought I could improve the Yekaterinburg article. I'm just a little confused if there is an approval needed? I edited the page yesterday and it was looking fine and is still listed as the current version, however, the article only shows the version from before I edited it. Is this expected behaviour? Do the main articles only get cached so often? Thanks in advance, FreakRob 13:12, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Nah, you don't need approval...Wikitravel recently underwent a serverchange and sometimes the latest version doesn't go. Although you can do one of the two things to fix that: 1) reload, if that doesn't work 2) go into history, click the latest version, and it should be there. Edit it again, and it should be fine. Keep smiling, ee talk 13:14, 15 November 2008 (EST).
No approval is needed, it is just that Wikitravel pages are cached, so there may be a delay in your newly edited page being updated. To purge the cache and display your newly edited page, after you have edited and saved all your changes, simply edit the page, or any section, again but, rather than saving the changes, scrole to the bottom of the page and follow the link that says Purge Cache for this page. Or, wait a while. -- Huttite 05:37, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Approval needed x 2?

Hi all! Yes I too am a bit confused. I have made some additions to one of my favorite cities, San Diego, and my posts have been removed. I read the guidelines, and thought I was contributing valueable data? I sure would like to know what I am doing wrong. Thank you very much. [[User:RockerChick74.237.97.125 08:41, 16 January 2009 (EST)]] 8:40am, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Your text was not placed in San Diego, but it is to be found in Attractions instead. Did you use the search function to find the word Attractions? Cut and paste it to the proper (San Diego) page, please. That Attractions page is nominated for deletion! It is always a good idea to log in if you edit our pages --Rein N. 09:48, 16 January 2009 (EST)


Thought it'd be a neat thing to do on Wikitravel, I looked through archives, and it isn't there. So, maybe we could have this for Wikitravel, [16]? What tdo you thinnk? KEEP SMILING, ee talk 19:16, 16 November 2008 (EST).

Red "!" on Special:Recentchanges

Hey! Well I have a question what the hell is this when you look at RECENT CHANGES: !...I don't get it. Its a red exclamation mark!!!! Keep smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:29, 17 November 2008 (EST).

It means that the edit is not patrolled. See [17] for more information. BTW, do we use the patrolled edit feature at Wikitravel for anything and, if so, what does it mean to "mark [an] edit as patrolled" (i.e. does it mean (a) "the edit is correct", (b) "the edit isn't correct, but it's not obvious vandalism or spam", (c) something else)? JYolkowski 17:56, 17 November 2008 (EST)

It's showing up for 90 % of the edits on Recent Changes and this neva happened! Keep smiling ,edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:58, 17 November 2008 (EST).

Wikitravel:Recent_changes_patrol - note "registered for over 30 days". Dguillaime 18:27, 17 November 2008 (EST)
That's not true, I patrol over so often, it's just the frequency of edits are so massive it's impossible to keep up, with so few chipping in the work. On that note I actually have a question - Is it possible to mark all revisions up to I read through an article as patrolled - would be useful when a user does like 20 edits on page within a short span of time - it's get tiresome to mark every single edit as patrolled. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:48, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Yes, if you enable "enhanced recent changes" in your preferences, that will group edits by page, and you can mark as patrolled from the grouped "dif". --Peter Talk 20:53, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Thanks! I find the enchanted version a bit confusing and poorly designed, but maybe I should let it stay for a while and see if I can get used to it. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 21:04, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Image use

I have two image-related questions:

  • 1) I wanted to upload a satellite picture of Hurricane Jeanne to use on the Florida page and possibly the city pages of various Florida cities. I know that the photographs taken by US government employees taken in the course of their duties is in the public domain for upload, but what about a satellite photograph taken by an agency(NOAA/NHC)? There is a FEMA photograph on the tornado safety page, but it lists the link to the photograph on FEMA's website. I know the website for the agency (, but I downloaded(right-click "save as") the picture a long time ago (2004) and the satellite imagery on the site is real-time and there is no archive to link to or to find the picture. Can I upload such a picture giving the link I mentioned?
  • 2) On Wikitravel Shared [18], there is information regarding the template for images from Flickr, but not licensing information (on "How to Upload Files" nor "Image Policy" nor "copyleft license" pages). Are all images on Flickr in the public domain or copyleft-license compatible? Could someone please explain the process of uploading pictures to Wikitravel shared (as I said, I've seen the info on the Fickr template)?
  • Thanks for the help!! AHeneen 02:34, 18 November 2008 (EST)
I can answer question (2). Flickr users can set their own copyright or licensing for each image they upload. Some (most, in fact) are listed as "All rights reserved", meaning they are not licensed for use here. Others have Creative Commons licenses. You can use the Advanced Search functionality to specifically find pictures with a Creative Commons License. So for example, searching on "hurricane" finds 384,166 results, but if I click on "Advanced Search", scroll to the bottom of the page and tick all 3 of the Creative Commons boxes, the results are filtered down to 8,721 results. If you click through to the photo page, there is information about the photo on the right-hand side of the screen, including licensing info which you can click on for full details of the license. Hope this helps. Tarr3n 05:31, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Thanks! Did I correctly do this: here's the file in Wikitravel Shared [19], and here in Flickr [20].
Looks OK to me... Tarr3n 06:20, 18 November 2008 (EST)
On a related note, Wikitravellers looking for photos of UK and Ireland destinations should check out Geograph [21], where all the photos have a CC license. If you click through to download a photo it even automatically generates the code you need for Wikipedia, which is easily adapted for Wikitravel upload. Very useful. Tarr3n 06:25, 18 November 2008 (EST)
Regarding #1, as long as the satellite image was taken by a USG agency (and not all the ones they use are), and as long as nothing has been added by a third party, the satellite images are in the Public Domain. --Peter Talk 13:50, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Alright, I've uploaded image #1, which can be found here given a Public Domain (created by a US gov't employee...) license and attributed to NOAA. I think it makes a nice addition to the Florida page! Thanks everyone for answering my questions!! AHeneen 20:34, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Policy fellowships, anyone?

Google has a number of summer fellowships for students to work on Internet policy issues. Among the hosts, listed at [22], are Creative Commons [23] whose license we use here and the EFF [24] whose advocacy on net.freedom affects us all. Any students here want to apply? Any teachers have students who should?

For that matter, should WT offer to host some students? Adding new hosts is still possible. Pashley 23:50, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Tour agencies

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but I don't know where. For apartment agencies, we have the policy that they must have a physical address, and that the listing only appear in the article of the destination where that physical office is located. I would like to think that the same applies for companies that arrange tours, if we allow them at all. For example, the Do section of the Brazil article currently lists a couple of such agencies. Can someone point me to the appropriate place where discussion of this issue is? I'm sure I've come across it before, but haven't found it just now. Texugo 07:44, 21 November 2008 (EST)

tour. I love this policy. --Peter Talk 14:30, 21 November 2008 (EST)
I think direct only is the best policy. Think of how many tour agencies we would have in HCMC is we allowed every tour agency with a physical sddress there. Tour companies should only be listed here if they own a bus, and take people around. People can always find an agency to book with if they want one. No agencies, no consolidators. Apartment listings only when direct to the apartment leasor, i.e the person who will give you the key, not to an agency or consolidator. Anything else could 1000's of agencies in even small cities.. floodgates... --Inas 16:28, 24 November 2008 (EST)


almost there people woo hoo -- 11:49, 22 November 2008 (EST)

We've hit it! → Sarrebruck. Sadly, our 20,000th article is in French... --Peter Talk 15:29, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Seriously, dude, isn't it Fort Saskatchewan? After I created it I looked at the main page and it turned to 20,000 I remember precisely! I know! Keep Smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 15:36, 22 November 2008 (EST).
Ack, you are right—I jumped on that too quickly. Anyway, I'm glad that our 20,000th isn't an accidental article in French ;) --Peter Talk 15:45, 22 November 2008 (EST)
Haha, Peter you're hilarious! So long as that's cleared up I'm happy to have contributed to such a monumental thing. Keep Smiling, edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 15:47, 22 November 2008 (EST).
Funny thing is, there is already an article in French for that destination! --AHeneen 03:42, 24 November 2008 (EST)
It looks like one was copied from the other -- note the [edit] links in the prose on the fr: version. LtPowers 08:40, 24 November 2008 (EST)


So I discovered how to go about adding travel news today and I was going to ask if we could include large national holidays as news. Anyways, I am reminded of how Wikipedia has an "On this day..." section. While it would certainly be too much of a hassle to update something like that on a daily basis, I was thinking that maybe we could add a section on the main page with the current month's worth of holidays (well, major holidays at least). Wikipedia articles for the months list holidays, so the hard work has been done for us! We could list the holidays on the main page, with a separate page listing both the holiday and description (just a few sentences, as seen below). So for instance:

July Holidays

  • July 1 Canada Day, Canada. Canada Day is marked by...blah blah.
  • July 1 Hong Kong SAR Establishment Day, Hong Kong. Establishment day is marked by...blah blah.
  • July 4 Independence Day, United States. In the United States, Independence Day (or also the "Forth of July") is a national holiday on which most workers receive a day off. Many Americans celebrate the day with picnics, grilling foods (such as hamburgers, hot dogs, ribs), heading to the beach/shore, and casual events with friends and families. From major cities to towns of 10,000, many municipalities in the United States host a parade and the vast majority host a fireworks display after dusk. The day is filled with patriotic music and images and flags are certainly not in short supply. If the holiday lies on a weekend, many workers will take the adjacent day off to create a long weekend. For travelers renting a vehicle, expect inter-city highways to be crowded on the days surrounding July 4th and for police vehicles to be blatant and numerous along roads. Additionally, hotels in coastal cities may charge higher-than-normal rates around this day and may have few, if any, vacancies. Nevertheless, the Forth of July is a great day for travelers to experience the patriotic spirit and enjoy free festivities no matter where in the US you may be.
  • July 6-14 San Fermín, Spain. Most notable for the running of the bulls, this festival...blah blah.
  • July 10 Independence Day, Bahamas. In the Bahamas, Independence Day is celebrated by...blah blah.
  • July 12 Battle of the Boyne, Ireland & Northern Ireland. The Battle of the Boyne is remembered on this day by...blah blah.
  • July 13-16 Bon Festival, Japan (dates vary by region). Bon Festival is celebrated in Japan by...blah blah.
  • July 14 Bastille Day, France. Also known as Le quatorze juillet, this holiday marks...
  • etcetera

Of course, we needn't list every holiday, but at least the major ones in which there are events/festivities of note for travelers. So for the US (which, being an American, is what I can relate to), we wouldn't need to list "Presidents Day" or "Flag Day", but the culture surrounding the 4th of July or Thanksgiving(and maybe even Black Friday) would be of interest to travelers. If a holiday spans more than 1 country (mostly religious holidays, like Christmas or Ramadan) or is specific to one but also celebrated in places worldwide (Chinese New Year, St.Patrick's Day) listing would look like:

  • December 25 Christmas, Christians/others. Note that Armenians celebrate Christmas on Jan 6, Orthodox Christians (mostly in Eastern Europe & the Middle East) on Jan 7. Christmas is celebrated with varying customs by region. This is a day spent mostly in the home with family, and as a result is the least busy day (commercially) of the year. In western nations, many non-Christians celebrate the day as a secular, cultural festival...leading to even higher numbers of people celebrating the holiday (96% in the US for instance). For the tourist, the fact that Christmas day is celebrated by so many means that the day will be spent inactive, as nearly all businesses and tourist attractions will be closed.
  • August 22-Sep 20 Ramadan(dates vary annually), Muslims. The month of Ramadan in the Muslim world is marked by dawn to dusk fasting. Visitors to predominately Muslim countries should note that, while not expected to fast themselves, restaurants open during daylight are almost nonexistent. However, in many cities, this month lends to bustling restaurant/nightlife scene for a few hours after dusk...blah blah.
  • March 17 St.Patrick's Day, Ireland & Irish communities worldwide. St.Patrick's Day is celebrated in Ireland by...blah blah. Outside of Ireland, festivities may include...blah blah.

So the point is that 2 things would need to be mentioned in a holiday's description: what the holiday celebrates(ie. the independence of [country] on [date]), what happens on the holiday/how is it celebrated(ie. picnics, fireworks, parades, etc), and what are its implications to the traveler(ie. on Christmas, most businesses are closed throughout predominately Christian nations, however airfare is considerably cheaper than surrounding days in the US). I think this would be a great idea for Wikitravel as a means to celebrate culture and guide Wikitravelers. Of course, there are potential problems and policies would need to be created regarding: 1) establishing a line between holidays and festivals (to keep the clutter down), 2) keeping up with refreshing holidays on he main page, 3) do we list by date or by region then date, and 3)the line between which holidays should be included and which should be excluded (every nation celebrates its independence day, but is that day in every nation notable for travelers?). The holidays could be kept as separate articles (ie June holidays, July holidays, etc) so that they would only need to be updated every year for holidays with various start-dates. I don't know how to make a template for holiday listings, nor how to rework the main page...but I would certainly be willing to work on the articles (with what I know, with Wikipedia's help) So what's everyone's opinion? Feedback? AHeneen 10:30, 26 November 2008 (EST)

I think you might be on to a neat idea, but why focus solely on the big holidays most people have heard of? It might be more interesting to feature a selection of random interesting things from whatever location that people might not have heard of. Then it could be different every year too. Texugo 07:32, 28 November 2008 (EST)
Maybe we could do the same thing as destinations, and divide holidays into major ones(like DotM) and minor ones worth noting(like OtBP).AHeneen 22:41, 28 November 2008 (EST)
Personally, I don't see any reason to remind everyone of the obvious big ones like Christmas, Easter, New Year's.. Unless.... Well, thinking about it more, perhaps the items featured should not be the holidays themselves but, rather, a particular destination's celebration of a given holiday. So rather than featuring US Independence day as a whole (which is more wikipedia-like), we select a city that has a unique or pronounced way of celebrating it; i.e. what is there for a traveller to do and see on Independence day in, say, New York City? (daytime events in Central Park, massive fireworks display at the Statue of Liberty, etc.). What would a tourist not want to miss seeing in Bangkok during Songkram? What about Carnaval in Olinda? Obon in Kyoto? Easter in Rome? What do you think? Texugo 02:31, 29 November 2008 (EST)

In my belief:

  • most holiday info should be destination-centric (i.e. traveler first chooses a destination, and for it he finds out what's special about how the specific holiday is celebrated in the destination chosen). An example I have is New Year holidays in Hungary (pitifully the most important part "Local traditions" is still empty)
  • at the same time, some holiday-centric info can make sense; I have early drafts on New Year travel in general, see Talk:Travel topics#New Year Travel and User:DenisYurkin/New Year Travel as the first steps to implement the idea.

Overall, I believe some info on holidays would be really useful; great to find out I'm not alone here :-) --DenisYurkin 17:11, 20 December 2008 (EST)


OK, this might be a bit specific for the pub, but I'd like some comments on the use of info boxes as I seem to be breaking the standard on some of my district articles

I don't think I've turned the article into something akin to wikipedia, which seems to be the main concern - the function is mainly to separate out content, that don't really warrant it's own article, but don't really mix well with the main content either. Christiania in particular is a special case, since it's essentially a city within the city, but doesn't offer sleeping options - and doesn't have enough content (as of now anyway) to work as a separate district (same case as the Vatican I suppose).

I'll sweep this into the Copenhagen talk page once I've gotten some comments, and please don't worry about the images on the Christianshavn district, They're there merely as a place holder, until I finish up the article.

--Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:10, 27 November 2008 (EST)

My take is as follows. The Tivoli infobox is appropriate, though I do think it should be trimmed down a little more. The Christiania infobox would work better as a district article of Copenhagen-- the "must-have-a-place-to-sleep" rule doesn't have to be rigid when it comes to districts with plenty to see, do and eat. The Mølleå river infobox could go either way-- if there is enough interesting information to be added it could potentially make an itinerary article. Otherwise it ought to be pruned and reworded a bit so as not to take up quite so much space. Hope that helps! Texugo 07:43, 28 November 2008 (EST)

Talk notification suggestion

I wonder if it wouldn't be productive to make a new user's first talk page notification somehow more obvious than just the little red dot. If you are a long time contributor, you've probably experienced many cases where a new user is contributing things which fall outside of our guidelines-- you revert their changes, they continue to add them, you leave a message on their talk page but they seem to never notice it. New users may not realize that we are an interactive community that works in real time, and may even be frustrated at seeing their contributions disappear, not having realized that an explanation was already given them. Anyone have any thoughts? Texugo 11:56, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Oh yes! I know this one firsthand and we should do something. After the first one it should just bee the nice red dot. That blatant thing should also say that there is a red dot. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:08, 1 December 2008 (EST).
I agree, this would be a really good idea. In the meantime (I'm assuming this isn't something that could get done right away as I assume it would require a software change), maybe we could add something to MediaWiki:Welcomecreation explaining what the red dot means? JYolkowski 18:45, 1 December 2008 (EST)
Good idea. Why don't we do what Wikipedia does, with that big, bold message at the top of the page? Doesn't get much more obvious than that. PerryPlanet Talk 12:04, 3 December 2008 (EST)
Support. A full-width one-liner that is like confirmation of operation in GMail definitely attracts attention and serves the purpose. --DenisYurkin 10:25, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Yah! edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 12:21, 3 December 2008 (EST).

I like the subtle red dot. Here are my steps for contacting users.
(1) Welcome or post message on the talk page - including anonymous talk pages.
(2) If the user is editing one page and you have reverted the edit more than once, add a note to the article talk page, especially if there is no talk page yet, telling everyone why the user's edit was reverted, with a link to the user's tak page.
(3) E-mail the user if they have enabled e-mail.
(4) Insert HTML comments in the page telling the user (and any other editor) to read their talk page. (View the source code of the Main Page for an example of how to use comments.)
(5) If the user persists in editing again, Insert a message directly on the article page telling the user to read their talk page. (This could be done with a vandalism template if need be).
(6) Keep reverting edits until the user pays attention or gets bored and stops.
(7) Ask an administrator to protect the affected pages, if this can be predicted , or,
(8) At last resort even block the user for a few minutes to an hour or so, so you can catch up with cleaning up their changes - serious vandalism only - as users sometimes will lose their temper and do stupid things as a reaction to being blocked.
- If they have not noticed by now they are either a bot or are ignoring you deliberately. In the case of spammers there is also the spam blacklist to cut the edit off at the knees, as it were. -- Huttite 06:15, 13 January 2009 (EST)


Okay why does this site keep freezing at times recently? I don't get it. I am sorry if this IS the wrong place. Anyways thanks. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:05, 1 December 2008 (EST).

Perhaps the servers are in Edmonton, and they freeze whenever someone opens the door? --Inas 19:30, 2 December 2008 (EST)
LOL. No they are in Winnipeg where the building dont have insulation and everyone there is freezing their tooshie off as a grandma would say ;). edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:33, 2 December 2008 (EST).

Minimum listing?

Is there a minimum of information required for a hotel, restaurant, or other listing? If a hotel listing has only the hotel name, or only the name and a web site, should it be removed? I see a lot of these. The listing policy doesn't seem entirely clear on this: it suggests what information should be there, but it doesn't say what minimum is required, that I could see. Personally, I think a listing with only a name or only a name and link should be removed; it's not much use in a print-out. Sailsetter 18:58, 2 December 2008 (EST)

But someone might come along and expand it later. I would say leave it, in anything below a guide article. Once the article is already a guide, any additional entries should then be high quality, I would say. --Inas 19:29, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Even just the name and contact info (web site, phone, e-mail) of a hotel can be useful if you're trying to arrange lodging in advance. Alingelb 04:22, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Yes, but some don't even have that. Sailsetter 09:57, 10 December 2008 (EST)
There are occasions when minimum listings are work in progress for a User, it would be disappointing if the User returned to find their work in progress missing. Brianeric 15:01, 13 February 2009 (EST)

How to make a disambiguation page for Kenwood?

I wanted to work on Kenwood Ca, a town very close to my home town, but after typing in Kenwood I was redirected to Chicago/South Chicago Shore.

I would like to make a disambiguation page but I don't know how. I would love to learn. Anyone want to teach me?

--Trew 19:13, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Create the Kenwood (disambiguation) page. Copy another, say look at Sutherland (disambiguation). Then decide whether the Kenwood page redirect should be changed to Kenwood (disambiguation), or whether a link to the disambiguation page should be added to the top of the Chicago/South Chicago Shore article. The former is easy just change the redirect page by editing the Kenwood page. If you decide to do the latter, look at the the way it is done in Sydney. If you can't decide which to do, just discuss it on the article talk page, and reach a consensus. It really depends on the significance of the other Kenwood for travellers. --Inas 19:35, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Disambiguated. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 16:41, 5 December 2008 (EST)

Thanks for all your help. I am going to get started on making the Kenwood, Ca guide once the holidays are over. Trew 19:54, 18 December 2008 (EST)

World Heritage Expedition

I've kickstarted a World Heritage Expedition to update and complete our list of UNESCO World Heritage Sites and knock off one of the last remaining Wikitravel milestones. There's a fair bit of work to be done, but there are "only" 878 sites, so this is eminently doable. Chip in! Jpatokal 23:09, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Yay, just to make sure, a country is done even if the linked pages are stubs? e.g. Denmark would be considered complete as it is? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 23:24, 6 December 2008 (EST)
Yes, at least in my opinion. Jpatokal 00:19, 7 December 2008 (EST)

Wikilinks in listings?

Hi, would it be possible to implement the ability to have wiki links inside of listing tags in any of the fields? This would really help to make a proper listing out of a location when the location has an own article and one just wants to outline it's there and why the travellers should go see it. --FreakRob 05:29, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Uhh, that's not what listings are for, really. Can you give an example? Why not just use a plain old paragraph? Jpatokal 05:49, 8 December 2008 (EST)
I'm guessing he's looking for something like: <see name="[[Walt Disney World Resort]]"></see>. The other fields in the see tag could be useful and would allow the listing for WDW to look the same as the listings for the other attractions in the list. LtPowers 10:29, 8 December 2008 (EST)


Where can I get information on the number of people visiting Wikitravel, the demographics of visitors, which pages are the most popular, etc.; Wikitravel's stats? Paula 00:20, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Hi Paula. Is this what you're looking for? Texugo 01:11, 9 December 2008 (EST)
Also Alexa[25] might be useful - it's actually interesting how we compare to and, but at the same time we're really lacking behind But yeah, it sucks the webalizer stat's have been disabled, and the google analytics stats collected here, is not publicly available. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 01:17, 9 December 2008 (EST)
A bit Related, using this graph you can (totally unscientifically) approximate that we get around 10-15.000 unique visitors per day (traffic rises drasticly in the northern hemisphere's summer) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 01:37, 9 December 2008 (EST)
Thanks for info Texugo and Stefan. Alexa has most of the info I was looking for but doesn't go into as much detail such as which pages are visited most (for example: Japan, Cancun, etc.) Stefan, you say we're lagging behind tripadvisor? From Alexa's stats, looks like WikiT is way ahead. Which stat are you referring to? I was judging it by the rankings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paula (talkcontribs)

Hmmm, no checked it, and they rank around 200-300 while we rank hover around 4000-5000. Anyway, find some other stats here, which includes demographics, and they claim WT to get 583.000 unique visitors per month, or 45.000 per day, which is much higher - and this figure only includes visitors from the US - wow! --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 04:25, 10 December 2008 (EST)

I see what you were reading. is better. WT is actually posted as being 22,000/day. Looks like the daily is calculated as an average of individual days. Unfortunately unlike Alexa, Quantcast only tracks US internet users. Interestingly enough for they compare global stats as well. Another related question, since WikiT doesn't accept ads why do google's ads show up on the site?Paula 03:36, 11 December 2008 (EST)

They are used to help pay for the site. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:34, 11 December 2008 (EST).

Yes, I know that's what they are there for. My question is basically who would a person contact if they wanted their ads to show up on WikiTravel? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paula (talkcontribs)
You could make a proposal at shared:Talk:Advertising policy, but in general the community has been pretty against advertising... we've allowed for WT Press, since it's a related project and there was no opposition, google ads on the other hand caused a bit of a stir. I can't imagine third-party ads will be popular – cacahuate talk 21:39, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Reproductions of Copyrighted Materials

So... I'd like to add some of the Canadian provincial highway shields to maps. Unfortunately, many of them are copyrighted. I'm guessing tracing one is off limits (it would be a derivative work of copyrighted material). Does anyone know how to work around this without violating the copyright. A couple of things I thought off are:

  • try to create one that looks the same, but do it free-hand
  • create one that is similar looking but leaves out certain features so it is not an exact replica

Any thoughts? Shaund 19:40, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Would [these] work? --Peter Talk 19:56, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Unfortunately they don't help much (I actually have that page bookmarked already!). Those are the Trans-Canada signs plus two of the provinces. I've found signs I can use for about 5 or 6 of the provinces so far. The big problems are BC and Alberta. Wikipedia/Commons treats all of their highway shields as a non-free logo. It sounds like Ontario is the same, but someone created simplified versions (i.e., my second bullet point) to get around it. I'm leaning towards doing it for those shields I can't find public domain/CC versions of, but would like to see if there are any other options. Shaund 20:34, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Ontario shields, at least the 400-series ones, should be public domain, according to Commons. For any provincial highways whose shields aren't PD, I recommend a generic square or circle design, something like Wikipedia:Commons:Image:MA Route 2.svg or the "generic" default route markers used by some U.S. states (Wikipedia:Commons:Circle_signs). LtPowers 21:23, 10 December 2008 (EST)
Shaund is right, and good for bringing this up. Not so sure of BC, but Shaund knows well so I assume it is, but I guess BC has the problem AB has. Yes we have the TransCanada, Secondary/Non Special Major, and Series 400 Highways, great. But a lot of canadian highways have unique symbols that dont have similarities to others. One example of a major highway that is this is the QEII (Queen Elizabeth highway 2) in Alberta, [26],. which runs from Calgary to Edmonton. There is highway two whcih uses a generic symbol on the highway outside of the leg of Edm-Cal. But that isn't such a major one, and we already have that logo. A few places still use the generic QEII symbol that was used, but that is because it only recently changed.edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 16:07, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Thanks for the comments. I took a closer look at the Ontario shields and they're OK because the copyright expired. I'll use a very generic design for those provinces whose shields are still covered by copyright. At some point, I'll try to summarize the status for all the provinces and put it up on the map making or regional map page. Shaund 01:42, 12 December 2008 (EST)

It could be a new expedition! edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 11:01, 12 December 2008 (EST).


From what I've tried, .svg cannot be shown on Wikitravel? I've found a highway sign on Wikimedia Commons and uploaded it to Shared ([27]), but when trying to put it in an article, it shows up as:
. Any way around this? If not, can I take a screenshot (which would take me 2 seconds) and upload it with the same license, credit, etc...only that it would be in .png format? AHeneen 01:35, 11 December 2008 (EST)
The ideal thing would be to open it in a program that reads SVG files and can save it or export it as a PNG (like Inkscape or Illustrator). If you don't have those programs, what you proposed should be fine, as long as you attribute the source back to the original SVG file (and the image file is compatible with our licensing, which Interstate signs are). Shaund 02:08, 11 December 2008 (EST)
shared:Tech:Render SVG images as PNG images appears to have been the most recent word on the subject. I think it might be worthwhile to discuss turning SVG rendering back on. Mediawiki's rendering is good enough for Wikipedia. LtPowers 10:06, 11 December 2008 (EST)
There's one big potential downside to enabling SVG rendering, one from which I think Wikimedia Commons is really suffering. If we just display SVGs instead of exported PNGs, it becomes necessary to save a separate SVG file for each translated file (like translated maps). This really gets in the way of updating maps and other images, as it would then be necessary to change each SVG file, rather than just modify the one base SVG and then run an exports for each language version. --Peter Talk 17:11, 11 December 2008 (EST)
Oh, right. I thought of that once before and forgot. =) LtPowers 08:22, 12 December 2008 (EST)
Imported into Inkscape, exported as PNG and used the same license/attribution. It is now here and fits nicely in the Interstate 4 article. Thank you both for your comments. AHeneen 10:19, 11 December 2008 (EST)


Feel free to disagree with it but I was thinking, would it be beneficial to have hair and nail and spa places integrated into the guides? It would call for a new template, but for citys it would be great. A lot of people want to go to hair salons and spas when on holidays. What do you think? edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:04, 11 December 2008 (EST).

They would go under "cope." For most Western cities, where there are tons of English speaking hair salons around, I don't think it's terribly useful to list them. But upmarket spas might be a nice thing to include. --Peter Talk 17:14, 11 December 2008 (EST)
Good point. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:57, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Please don't list these. A spa, such as one would find in a place like Palm Springs or Santa Barbara is valuable as people drive hundreds of miles to visit it, but a simple nail salon or barber shop can be found in the yellow pages and doesn't belong in a travel guide. Listing businesses like nail salons, barber shops, gas stations, or grocery stores for cities that have more than a handful of businesses is inappropriate as it becomes a Wikitravel:Slippery slope towards creating a yellow pages guide, which we definitely don't want to do. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:41, 11 December 2008 (EST)
So, only spas? Note - I will only list hair places if it is a salon spa kind of thing, is that okay? Groceries can be useful and I have seen them in a few articles. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:53, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Please re-read what Peter and I wrote. Peter indicated "upmarket spas might be OK" while I indicated that listing a spa is really only appropriate when it's a place that people would travel to visit. To make this simpler, before listing something like a nail salon, gas station, or grocery store make sure it meets one of the following two criteria: 1) the establishment is rare for the area. Example: a visitor to a remote town will want to know if there are gas and groceries in that town, but a visitor to Los Angeles can assume that it will be easy to find both. 2) the establishment is so noteworthy that anyone with any familiarity with the location would recommend it. Example: drug stores aren't notable, but Wall Drug is known internationally. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:01, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I understand. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:04, 11 December 2008 (EST).

PAGENAME function

Is there a function similar to {{PAGENAME}} that doesn't include parentheticals like (city) and doesn't include the hyphen or things before it? i.e. would display "Deep Ellum" instead of "Dallas/Deep Ellum", or "Vernon" instead of "Vernon (Texas)"..? I should think it would be useful if there were but have no idea how to make one. Texugo 19:58, 15 December 2008 (EST)

Thinking a bit more, surely something like this must exist, since the page name fed to the browser window doesn't include these. I was primarily thinking that if there were such a function or if someone could make one, we could plop it into our article templates, and it would eliminate the all-too-frequent occurences of new contributors making an article and forgetting to fill in the blanks, resulting in new pages that literally begin with, for example,
City name is a city in Region name
Texugo 20:09, 15 December 2008 (EST)
SUBPAGENAME should be a start, if does half of what you want. --Inas 21:03, 15 December 2008 (EST)
This doesn't quite work but maybe it'll spark another idea. On a non-subpage, the code [[{{subst:SUBPAGENAME}}|]] should do what you want; only problem is that this will render as a wikilink (although as a wikilink on its own page renders on bold and as that's what you want in the lead sentence, not a big problem); however, on a subpage it'll render as a link to a different page, which is a problem. JYolkowski 22:46, 15 December 2008 (EST)

I couldn't find any MediaWiki magic word that removes disambiguators. It does seem like there must be a function somewhere, though, for the reason you stated. Might want to ask around at the Shared pub where the tech guys hang out. =) LtPowers 21:50, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Good idea. Will do. Texugo 02:14, 17 December 2008 (EST)
What about {{#explode:{{SUBPAGENAME}}|{|0}}, am I getting warmer, or do I still need to refine the spec document? --Inas 23:13, 17 December 2008 (EST)
Just tried that. It doesn't appear to remove parentheticals. Texugo 23:20, 17 December 2008 (EST)
Okay, What about {{#explode:{{SUBPAGENAME}}| (|0}}. See User:Inas/one two three (four) Thanks for your patience. --Inas 23:53, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Maybe a good idea but with districts I think we should still have the city's name, but maybe not a slash. IE: Dallas Deep Elm or Deep Elm , Dallas instead from Dallas/Deep elm. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 00:10, 18 December 2008 (EST).

Might want to rethink that, ee. The first sentence always gives you that information anyway. It's pretty redundant to say "Dallas Deep Ellum is a district of Dallas", not to mention ungrammatical. Texugo 00:14, 18 December 2008 (EST)

I'm going to implement this template inside the header of the routebox template to get rid of the need to manually type the placename in. Thanks again, Inas. Texugo 00:16, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Is it working okay? Should we use the same function in the article template? --Inas 17:59, 23 December 2008 (EST)


So I was browsing YouTube this evening and for some, unwieldy reason, I decided to search for "Wikitravel". I stumbled across one video (I know there's a page somewhere on WT which lists media mentions), and got an idea...since new users have such a hard time figuring out the proper way of adding, what to add, etc. even with all the pages about this, should we make a video? How about an "Introduction to Wikitravel" no more than 2 minutes long which just goes over the basics like how to edit, MoS, don't tout, goals and non-goals, etc? I know we've got a lot of things going on with the new routeboxes and making a video would take someone a bit of time, but would it be worth it? This is just a thought...I'm not intent that we do this, it's just a thought. AHeneen 20:05, 16 December 2008 (EST)

I think it would be a great idea. But I also think we should keep what we got. Just so people could have a visual/hear aid and it would get people revved on editing. Personally, I wouldn't use it because I find vid tutorials have wayyy too small screeen and I can't get anything so I just use word tutorials. But for others, other people seem to like it. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 20:44, 16 December 2008 (EST).
I did not suggest getting rid of the pages...just make a short video to summarize those pages. AHeneen 20:56, 16 December 2008 (EST)
Bud, I am not accusing you, ok? I am not turning it on you. All Imma saying is that we should still have the normal pages along with a vid - I didn't accuse you. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 21:52, 16 December 2008 (EST).

Traveling with pets

I like to travel with my dog (Šelma [28]), but there is almost no info on that topic. I have some ideas:

  • Pet restrictions in counries (guarantees, pet passports, vaccination)
  • Pet restrictions/prices on trains, buses, ...
  • Pet safety (potential diseases like rabies or canina distemper, approarch of locals, ...)

I have started to write something like that in Czech republic article. What do you think about it?Multimotyl 22:50, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Not something I would personally find useful, but I think it's a good idea all the same. I think we should stick to basic info rather than try to get into to much detail about it. Your info on travelling by train with a pet in the Czech Republic is a good example of this. Maybe a subsection of "Cope" would be the relevant place for it, rather than having a wee bit about pets in "Get In", another in "Get Around" and another in "Stay Safe", which I can see might happen? Tarr3n 05:41, 18 December 2008 (EST)
Seems like a great idea to me. - Alingelb 07:56, 18 December 2008 (EST)
Great, hope someone writes something about UK. I feel confused about their policy even after consultation with my vet.
I actually think it would be a great idea and it is often overlooked, but very important. Maybe not a large section, but some basic information so people know what do with their pets. It would be very very helpful. Also, adorable pup. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:22, 23 December 2008 (EST).
Add to Travel topics. Probably very important for those people who have a working animal because they are differently-abled, depend on the animal for their employment or are a sports person/animal team. -- Huttite 06:27, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Bold Tags

I have been working on the California wine country lately and I have been wondering if it is appropriate to put bold tags at the end of listing for example

  • Restaurant Y, xxx Main street. Bla bla bla review. Families romantic or Thai Food

So that people can scan through the article really quick and find something that fits what they need. The type of food or type of location, like good for families or a romantic date.

Any thoughts? Trew 20:02, 18 December 2008 (EST)

I suspect most people will prefer not to use bold tags for that kind of thing as typically bold is used only for really important information (example: "travelers should be aware that there are severe penalties for drug trafficking in Singapore"), but as long as you don't mind people potentially editing your work later you're welcome to see how it works out - if it turns out well and is useful then others may begin following your example. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:36, 18 December 2008 (EST)
I think we need something like this--I tried to use Wikitravel in my trips specifically to find a restaurant of a particular sort, and near me--and 2 or 3 keywords would be really helpful in my experience. So--definitely support. --DenisYurkin 16:38, 20 December 2008 (EST)


I'm de-touting some and reverting those that aren't actually in the correct location, but only for Maryland locations. Someone may want to fix the rest of these. I wouldn't object to a massive revert, since the user seems to be operating in bad faith, but there is some useful information there. --Jonboy 11:19, 22 December 2008 (EST)

I'd prefer not to see a mass revert - while I agree that it's annoying to have people associated with hotel chains plastering promotional material across the site, the hotel info is still valuable and shouldn't be terribly hard to clean up. Ideally, if anyone has any ideas on how to better get the attention of users like this one it would be great to be able to let them know that the information is good but using promotional language and always inserting those listings at the top of the hotel list (instead of alphabetically) is inappropriate. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:36, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Enable live Commons images


Would you enable live images from Commons? That a great feature!$wgForeignFileRepos Thanks, Yann 15:02, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Yeah, just read about it the other day in Wikimedia's annual report - it's a great feature, and I'd love to see it around here too - although I'm not sure if we could bypass the CC vs GFDL issue, if the image is hosted on commons. Seems to be OK for the on-line version, but would it bring us at odds with republished off-line content? But in any case CC licenses seem to be slowly taking over on Commons - at least all the images I've seen recently have all been either CC or dual licensed. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:02, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Launching Routebox navigation

Most everything seems to have come to a consensus regarding the implementation of Routebox navigation. I want to thank everyone who has participated in the discussions so far, contributing great ideas. Now let's please plunge forward and see what we can do. We can still discuss policy changes as needed, but I think it's time that anyone can get their hair wet and see how it goes. Please have a close look at the policy page first, and then try it out yourself! You can also check out the examples which have already been set in the Texas Panhandle/Oklahoma Great Plains region, the Florida region and, for a train network, have a look at Japan, where all high-speed train lines have been completed, as well as a number of the most important regular train lines. Feel free to join in the discussions at Wikitravel talk:Routebox navigation if you have any concerns, suggestions, or questions. Cheers! Texugo 09:41, 23 December 2008 (EST)

Thanks for your work on this. Looking forward to trying it. --Inas 17:28, 23 December 2008 (EST)
Same here, I'll be working on this as soon as I have a good amount of spare time. AHeneen 16:08, 24 December 2008 (EST)

Allentown, Pennsylvania

I notice a few section in the Allentown, Pennsylvania article are not separating as stand-alone sections, even though they appear to be formatted correctly. Could someone look at it? Thanks. PAWiki 15:31, 23 December 2008 (EST)

Can do. - Dguillaime 15:35, 23 December 2008 (EST)
Thanks. What was wrong with it? PAWiki 15:50, 23 December 2008 (EST)
There was a <do> tag missing its matching </do>. - Dguillaime 17:39, 23 December 2008 (EST)

Glædelig Jul

Thought I'd blatantly disregard the rules of off-topic chatter, and wish everyone here at this little corner of the internet a happy and merry Christmas, since we are one of those weird peoples who actually celebrate christmas on the 24th. So Glædelig Jul, Merry christmas, Feliz Navidad, Joyeux Noël, Frohe Weihnachten, Hyvää Joulua, メリークリスマス, С Рождеством Христовым (even though that's a little while off) and whatever it is to the rest of you, and a happy New Year too! --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:11, 24 December 2008 (EST)

Merry Christmas to you too. AHeneen 16:03, 24 December 2008 (EST)

Top Cities by 'Liveability'

So there's probably 100 different ways to rank the "best cities" in the world, but I cam across this article this evening and thought I'd share it with yall. Anyways, I hope everyone who is celebrating holidays (Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus, Boxing Day, Yule, etc.) are enjoying them. AHeneen 01:55, 27 December 2008 (EST)

Problem with Wikipedia link

How do we handle adding a Wikipedia link to Wikitravel when the city names are entered diffently. For instance, how would the Wikitravel link for Coral Gables be added to the Wikipedia page Coral Gables, Florida? I added the link, but the abscence of the state on the Wikitravel page makes the link go to the wrong page. MiamiDolphins3 14:46, 28 December 2008 (EST)

It works now. Just type the name of the city on Wikipedia. Even though the city is called "Coral Gables" here, put a WIkipedia link: [[WikiPedia:Coral Gables, Florida]].
MiamiDolphins is referring to links from Wikipedia to Wikitravel, not from here to there. And I'm not sure how that wp template works. --Peter Talk 16:11, 28 December 2008 (EST)
Exactly. The link on Wikitravel to Wikipedia worked fine from the beginning. The link from Wikipedia to Wikitravel has not worked because the Wikitravel article is named Coral Gables, not Coral Gables, Florida. This is a pretty big issue that needs resolution.MiamiDolphins3 18:53, 28 December 2008 (EST)
The simple solution is to create a redirect on WT for Coral Gables, Florida, pointing to our Coral Gables article; the WP article can then link to the redirect. That is about all you can do on this end, short of proposing a radical change to our whole naming scheme that probably would not fly.
There is likely more you can do on the WP end. Isn't there a way to link to a WT article with a different title? If not, could you propose one? Or just use whatever generic mechanism they have for linking to external sites? Pashley 21:04, 28 December 2008 (EST)
Of course there is, see Wikipedia:Template talk:Wikitravel. The syntax is obvious: {{wikitravel|name-on-Wikitravel}}, so in this case you'd just add {{wikitravel|Coral Gables}}. Jpatokal 00:46, 29 December 2008 (EST)

New template - moreinfo

For the Cairo article, I needed a template to link readers to the Egypt article for visa information, but found nothing suitable. The closest thing was the {{seealso}}, which is not ideal in this case. So, I created a new template: {{moreinfo}} to meet the need.

It works like this:

{{moreinfo|Egypt|visa requirements}}

Will create:

For more information on visa requirements, see the Egypt article.

I added this and the seealso template to Wikitravel:Template index. Please let me know if this new template duplicates anything, or any issues. Otherwise, hope it will be useful for others. Aude 00:22, 31 December 2008 (EST)

Looking at this again, it might be better to omit the "more" and have the template say "For information on ___, see the ___ article". Aude 00:31, 31 December 2008 (EST)
Looks fine to me. We've usually done links like that inline, and there's an existing {{seealso}} template, but that doesn't take arguments. (Maybe it should?) Jpatokal 01:16, 31 December 2008 (EST)
Do we really need this though? Visa info always goes on the country page, Cairo isn't an exception... so if this is to be put into use it would go on all the city articles that have int'l airports? It seems like unnecessary clutter for the pages to me :) – cacahuate talk 19:46, 31 December 2008 (EST)
We don't "really" need it, but the frequency with which people jam visa info onto city pages means that they expect to find it for major gateways like Cairo (the entry point for probably a good 90% of Egypt visitors), so I think a pointer is good. Jpatokal 22:11, 4 January 2009 (EST)

Cache clearing problems not going away

It's been months since IB upgraded the servers and the cache problems are still a major headache. Us experienced users are used to it, because we know our changes are being saved by the DB, but this is almost certainly driving away lots of newbies who just see their hard work "disappear" after saving. Please help vote this up on shared:Top bugs.

As an immediate hack, though, it might be mildly helpful to add a warning to the edit page saying that changes may not show up immediately. Jpatokal 22:09, 4 January 2009 (EST)

I added a note to MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning as a quick fix. It's obviously not copyright-related, but it puts the note in the right place on the edit window. --Peter Talk 22:39, 4 January 2009 (EST)

External Links

Just a quick suggestion that external links open in a new window when clicked. It just seems more natural that way and reduce the possibility that Wikitravel browsers go off on some link and forget about the Wikitravel page they were viewing. AHeneen 01:45, 6 January 2009 (EST)


Just noticed that the quickboxes are inconsistent with information. I noticed this when I gave Russia a quickbox...I copy/paste from Canada (which lacks electric, location, & time zone info), and then noticed that info was on the US quickbox. Browsing Russia's neighbors , it became evident that some lack electrical, time zone, calling code, or location. It's nothing major, but if anyone has some spare time...please go ahead and fix any incomplete quickboxes you find. AHeneen 05:29, 7 January 2009 (EST)

Template_talk:Quickbar#Delete_the_Quickbar --Peter Talk 13:52, 7 January 2009 (EST)


Is there a policy about inserting mailto: tags into listings? It's done fairly often, but I think the policy should be not to use them, because it 1) adds to the impression that Wikitravel is primarily to be used as a web site rather than as printouts, 2) it's not in the template, 3) it looks ugly printed out, 4) such links are formatted inconsistently (e.g. sometimes you see the word "email:" used with the tag, sometimes not), and 5) most people who want to email are going to go to the hotel's web site anyway, where they usually will find a mailto: tag or contact box. Simply having a policy not to use the tags would simplify everything. Sailsetter 19:22, 8 January 2009 (EST)

E-mail addresses appear to be made into mailto: links automatically by the listings tags, as in below:
Seems like a useful feature to me that doesn't take up that much room. -- LtPowers 20:08, 8 January 2009 (EST)
Sailsetter, You make a big assumption that everyone can be contacted via a contact page using their website. What if their web page contact page is not working, or they don't have one? Sure the big hotels have one, but what about the little bed and breakfast places who have a single web page/advert or those strange businesses that have an e-mail address but no website, yet? Also, in many places you can send an internet e-mail for free, but website access costs money. Having the e-mail address is a definite plus. While not using the e-mail tags would siplify things for the editors, it would make things harder for the traveller. A prime directive of Wikitravel is The traveller comes first. Therefore, e-mail addresses should be listed, where they are available to be used. The need is to develop a policy that makes the presentation consistent. The above suggestion by LtPowers seems like a good way to do things to me. -- Huttite 03:02, 17 January 2009 (EST)
Just to be clear, it's not a suggestion; it's the way Wikitravel works right now if you use the "email" field for listings. LtPowers 10:18, 17 January 2009 (EST)
I think two issues are being confused here: whether we ought to give email addresses, and how we should present them. I certainly wasn't suggesting not including email addresses; I was questioning the presentation of email addresses in mailto: format, for the reasons I indicated. Another reason I could mention is that the mailto: function is widely detested on the internet, since if you don't use Outlook Express some other PC-based email system, but instead do all your emailing on a web site mailer like gmail, then it's irritating that whenever you click on a mailto: link, your system freezes while it chugs along bringing up Outlook Express, which you then have to close before you can do anything else. (This often happens because the mailto: tag is hidden behind some link like Contact Us.) It's surprisingly difficult to get your system not to do this, especially with Firefox, and when I say it's widely detested I'm not just claiming that: do a Google search on something like Firefox default email to see how many people are irritated by this and how complicated the suggested solutions are -- and so far I haven't been able to get any of them to work! Anyway, if people are going to use mailto: in Wikitravel, I think they should at least do it right. Put mailto: in the Wikitravel search box to see how ugly it can get. Sailsetter 10:51, 17 January 2009 (EST)
I guess I don't understand your complaint, then. The links are not hidden but are clearly e-mail addresses; anyone clicking on one should know what's going to happen. They should be formatted consistently as long as the listing tags are used correctly. And I have no idea what you mean by "It's not in the template". LtPowers 16:29, 17 January 2009 (EST)
It's not my complaint that the addresses are hidden, and in fact I don't see anything in my above remarks that implies that. My complaint about the appearance is that the addresses often appear on the screen like this:

This is obviously wrong: the email address in question is not, it is What I mean by it's not in the template is that for instance the listing template for hotels (maybe template is the wrong Wikitravel jargon for this, but that's what it really is)has an email input area reading


There's no indication that your email address is going to be turned into a mailto: tag, which I think as one contributor is confusing. Sailsetter 12:01, 18 January 2009 (EST)

Well, there's no indication that the data entered into the URL field will be turned into a link, either, but I guess I don't see that as a problem. We, as Wikitravel, want to show e-mail addresses if they're relevant, and there's no reason not to make them into a link if we're going to show them. As for the "email: mailto:" thing, can you show me an example? LtPowers 16:53, 18 January 2009 (EST)
I gave what I thought were several good reasons not to make them into a mailto: link, most especially that if I click on a URL link, I go to that link, everything ok, but if I click on a mailto: link and I don't want to use Outlook Express, my system goes bonkers. And as for the formatting, I gave an example eight lines above your request for an example, which I found by typing the string mailto: into the Wikitravel search box, as I explained a dozen lines above that. Sailsetter 14:58, 19 January 2009 (EST)
Sorry, by "example" I was hoping you could point to a specific article. I thought your example was just something you typed in. Doing a search, as you suggested, I see that your example comes from a page that isn't even using the listing tags. Someone hardcoded that in the wikitext markup. There's nothing we can do about that except fix it when we find it -- I'm surprised you haven't fixed it yourself, yet.
As for problems with mailto: links, I still don't see the problem. If your system doesn't handle mailto: links well, then don't click on e-mail addresses. LtPowers 18:27, 19 January 2009 (EST)
Before the listings tags existed, we used to type everything out manually, and it was (and technically still is) part of the MoS to build email addresses using the mailto format (though you were supposed to hide the "mail to" text). Emails are still included now in the listings tags if you use the ones in the edit tools box when editing a page... but unfortunately when the "add listings" box was created the person(s) creating it thought they would keep things to a minimum and left some fields off, email being one of them... personally I think that should be changed. I'm in favor of keeping the mailto format however, those who don't like it know how to not click on it, but those of us who do use outlook, etc, appreciate not having to copy-paste – cacahuate talk 19:38, 19 January 2009 (EST)

Strange characters in articles

Hi Folks,

I've noticed the the small phone icon in posts does not display properly.

I think it may be an encoding problem but I'm not sure where to look.

I have the problem in both Firefox 3 and IE 6

An example is here: Montreal/Cotes-des-Neiges#See

any ideas or suggestions?

Redbear 20:48, 12 January 2009 (EST)

Looks normal to me. Can you give a little more detailed description of the problem? Do you not see a phone icon at all? Texugo 20:56, 12 January 2009 (EST)
No phone icon, just a small rectangle with numbers, all the accented characters look ok Redbear
"Small rectangle" is the universal symbol for "my font doesn't have that character." For good or bad, Wikitravel currently uses the "phone symbol" letter rather than a graphical icon. Try installing the rest of the fonts for your system (particularly international fonts) and see if things get better. --
Any suggestion as to which font(s) I need? Redbear
I downloaded Arial Unicode MS it seems to have fixed the problem - Thanks for the help!!

Template or Markup Code for User Page?

Hi all,

I've tried to scrounge about for proper template/code to set up my User Page, and cannot find what I'm looking for. Any suggestions? WineCountryInn 15:31, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Wikitravel:User page help has some information and Wikitravel:Babel explains using the language boxes. There aren't really many templates meant for user pages, so often if you see a user page you like you can just view its source and copy what you like to your own page. If you need help with HTML or other code issues just post a message on an appropriate talk page (such as Wikitravel talk:User page help) and someone will be able to help out. If you have suggestions for creating better guidance for user pages please also share it as it would be great if our policy/help pages could be improved. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:49, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Is this a bug or my browser?

I woke up this morning to find the navigation bars on the left side of the screen occupying the full width of my browser. It means it is almost impossible to log in, read pages or edit. I cannot read any new pages that I have not visited recently, though the Pub is one page I had in my history from last night. But editing is a real mission because I am typing blind. -- Huttite 15:24, 13 January 2009 (EST)

There appear to be some caching / other issues going on today. I've seen the search bar extending full width after marking edits as patrolled, but reloading the page usually fixes the problem. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:45, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Just so you know, it's not just you, I'm having the same problem with all of the navigation bars running the full length of the screen. JYolkowski 18:57, 13 January 2009 (EST)

I have had the similar thing happen. But it only happens with short pages, ie when you patroll edits. Basically when a page is shorter than the length to the search bar the searchbar will go full length. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:07, 13 January 2009 (EST).

Going through my cache, it looks like they've changed main.css. I'll file a bug report as soon as I figure out how to do so. JYolkowski 19:31, 13 January 2009 (EST)
See shared:Tech:Recent change to main.css on en: is causing navigation bars to occupy full width of screen. JYolkowski 19:40, 13 January 2009 (EST)

It's on every page and I cannot do anything at the top of a page because I cannot see anything. I do not know how to fix it - I looked at that link ? ! edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 12:24, 14 January 2009 (EST).

I believe what happens depends on the browser one uses. I use IE6 - for technical reasons - and when I visit a page I can see the page load then it is overlaid by all the navigation pretty stuff. The page is still there, because I can tab into forms, but I cannot see what I am typing until the text is pushed down below the bottom of an overlaying panel. I used a friend's computer which has IE7 and it is not a problem. Seems silly I need to upgrade my web browser to read a website. And if I was at work, where IE6 is company standard because they haven't tested IE7 yet for application compatability, I know the reaction would be not our problem the web site has it's CCS formatting wrong! -- Huttite 15:15, 14 January 2009 (EST)
Problem resolved. I can see WikiTravel pages using my IE6 browser again! Many thanks to all who assisted in resolving this problem. -- Huttite 02:37, 17 January 2009 (EST)

Phrasebook Audio?

I was thinking that it might be helpful to include audio with the phrasebooks. If it is not possible to insert audio, would it be possible to adjust external link policy to add websites at the end of the phrasebook articles? AHeneen 14:34, 19 January 2009 (EST)

If we want to do it, best to host the audio here I think. --Inas 23:59, 20 January 2009 (EST)

Pathfinder Expedition

I was presented with the opportunity to edit the article about Te Kuiti last night. (Coincidentally, I had planned a journey for some of my family members that went through there just the other week.) When I read the article I realised that there was so much more near Te Kuiti that the traveller should know about, but wouldn't, unless some links to other places, that were just up the road, were added to the article. It occurred to me that by concentrating on placing destination articles into a geographic location we may be missing out on the fun part of travel, which is getting there in the first place!

In writing destination articles about what is there, the traveller also need to be informed about what is nearby - this is something that we are not doing well. Perhaps that is because the people doing the writing know where the place they are writing about is because they have been there, or live there. But the traveller is not there, but somewhere else, so needs to know how to get there too - but nobody is explaining how to go there or leave there for somewhere else, a lot of the time.

It is like we have a huge, but rather bare, Christmas tree. It has lots of branches and leaves and some decorations hanging off the ends, but there are no tinsel streamers or strings of fairy lights to light up those destinations and join them together, so that the fairies and christmas elves can climb from branch to branch without needing to go back to the trunk each time.

I am proposing a Wikitravel:Pathfinder Expedition. The purpose of the Pathfinder Expedition is to create paths (wikilinks) between destination articles that mirror the real world. Pathfinders would populate the Get In and Get Out sections of articles with wikilinks to near-by destinations. In essence, paths are laid from one article to the next, as links between destinations, just as the tinsel and fairy lights wiring joins the ends of the Christmas tree branches, or roads join towns together.

In the case of Te Kuiti, which is on Highway 3 between Hamilton and New Plymouth, it is probably important to know that a very popular tourist attraction, the Waitomo glowworm caves are just up the road. This could justify taking a break and staying there, rather than somewere else. - Huttite 05:11, 21 January 2009 (EST)

I proposed a similar idea early last month, and we have already worked this out in your absence. Please have a look at Wikitravel:Routebox navigation. It has thusfar only been implemented for a few areas, such as Northern Texas, Alberta, Japan, and parts of Norway. It would be great to have another contributor to help flesh it out in other areas. Texugo 10:03, 21 January 2009 (EST)
Routebox navigation is definitely part of Pathfinding, but nowhere near all of it. I see Pathfinding as being more general than Routebox navigation, though they are similar and closely related.
While Routeboxes will work in countries that have numbered highways systems that those destinations are on (or have exits to), it doesn't quite work when your destination is off the highway, or there is no highway, or road - which is more the case with Waitomo and a number of other popular New Zealand destinations. Mind you, Routeboxes seem to be a very good idea, though I haven't delved into much of the fine detail, yet.
One potential pothole I can see in the Routeboxes idea is that routes should intersect at, or close to, destination (route nodes). I just wonder how Routeboxes would cope with route intersections or junctions that are between destinations, but not close enough to be in a destination article. For example, some parts of the NZ highway system intersect at road junctions between towns but there is nothing at the junction to justify a destination article - its just a place where two roads meet, nothing else, not even a lay-by with a picnic table.
Pathfinding is about wikilinking Wikitravel articles in a way that reflects the real world. It is about finding paths in Wikitravel that allow the reader to wikitravel (i.e. web-surf) from from one article to the next, in a way that reflects how they might travel in the real world. It may document the real world in some way, as Routebox navigation does. However, it is primarily about how Wikitravel articles are linked together, in (reasonably) logical ways, that is different to the tree-like geographic hierarchy. Perhaps I should (now) mention that my ulterior motives for suggesting pathfinding is to eliminate orphaned and dead-end pages, as well as trying to break down the wiki-walls and untie the wiki-knots that the tree-like geographic hierarchy tends to promote. Pathfinding is about connecting the destination leaf nodes on different branches of the the geographic hierachical tree with wiki-links. Wikipedia call it building the web.
Note: It has been proposeded that there are just 6 degrees of separation between any two people/places. - that suggests it should be possible to get between any two Wikitravel articles by following no more than 6 wikilinks. The goal of the Pathfinder Expedition is to make that a reality. -- Huttite 02:50, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Could you be a little more specific? It sounds like you are proposing that we concentrate on something that we already try to do-- are you just talking about inserting links in the text part? Texugo 07:01, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I too would like to see an example, maybe you can work something up in your userspace? I'm hesitant to support to much of a move towards more boxes etc, I think it tends to be more useful to keep our structure and hierarchy as simple and straight forward as possible, which would be to flesh out some more "get out" sections as good examples of what they should be. But I also don't want to shoot down your idea before you've had a chance to flesh it out and show us what's on your mind :) – cacahuate talk 13:18, 22 January 2009 (EST)
To quote Huttite: "Pathfinders would populate the Get In and Get Out sections of articles with wikilinks to near-by destinations." I don't think he/she is proposing anything radical here. Just an Expedition to help make sure articles are well-connected. LtPowers 20:31, 22 January 2009 (EST)
I can read what Huttite wrote of course, but it is ambiguous-- by "pathfinder" he could be meaning "users who contribute to this expedition" or he could mean a box of some kind or a listing in a particular format. That's why I asked. Texugo 23:52, 22 January 2009 (EST)
Or it could mean, I'm travelling from here to there, what do I need to see on the way. Don't just tell me the way - find me a path.. --Inas 00:08, 23 January 2009 (EST)

Yes I am proposing an Expedition to make sure articles are well connected. Yes, we already do most of this, implicitly. We, are all already users who contribute to this expedition, even though it doesn't exist in any concrete form, yet. What I am trying to do is explicitly articulate the things that we all have learned to do, and not do, distill that knowledge, generate some documentation about it, and that then provides all Wikitravelers with a ready made guidelines about being a (better) Pathfinder. I do not see that we need to change anything that is currently done to link articles. There is no need for special route boxes; I'll leave that to the Route Expedition participants, who are Pathfinders with a special mission. There might be a few new templates to identify articles that need linking, but don't have a good home at the moment. I will take on board the suggestion to work up a draft Expedition brief on my user page over the next week or so. Hopefully this will explain things better. Thanks for your feedback, as it has helped to focus my thinking too. - Huttite 08:06, 31 January 2009 (EST)

OK - Proposal is at User:Huttite/Pathfinder Expedition - Discuss on the talk page. - Huttite 08:34, 2 February 2009 (EST)

Random page in specified country

I'm here to suggest a great new killer feature on wikitravel! Suppose you're in some god-forsaken country and want to have fun. You navigate to the country's wikitravel-page and hit "random site" and *ZAPP* you're in Leh, Ladakh, India. Fantastic! I know it will probably take som pretty thorough revisions of the wiki-media framework, but I'm just releasing the idea into the wild.

Greetings from Aarhus, Denmark. 23.12, 21. january 2009 (CET)

Thanks for your suggestion! We keep all of our feature requests on Wikitravel Shared. You can add a new feature request to the Shared:Category:Open feature requests. LtPowers 19:27, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Spam filter

I'm getting a spam filter block when I try to edit Ireland. Is there any way to know which link is causing the problem? LtPowers 09:02, 26 January 2009 (EST)

I removed an entry listing rates for adult calls. No link, but that seems to have fixed it. --Wandering 16:57, 26 January 2009 (EST)

User CSS customizations

On Wikipedia, I have extensive CSS and JavaScript customizations set (e.g. personal "monobook.css"), along with a different skin. Along with other benefits, this makes it very obvious when I get accidentally logged out on Wikipedia. Here, for some reason, my "p-personal" links ("preferences", "watchlist", etc.) display no different than if I was logged out, including displaying "My page" and "log in/create account". When I go over to Shared, it shows "log out" and "Aude".

1) Why do pages here display as if I'm logged out, even though I'm logged in?

2) I would like to customize my css file, but that feature appears to be disabled along with the alternative skins. Why? Where can a request be made to enable these features?

Aude 13:05, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Caching on Wikitravel is weird. Head on over to Shared and make a tech request. Jpatokal 22:24, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Added: shared:Tech:User css customizations and shared:Tech:Personal links. Though, I see a lot of requests that are not completed yet. Aude 23:02, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Are other people seeing the "log in / create account" link at the top of the page, even when you are logged in? Or is it just me? Aude 23:04, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I had it, it was fixed, and now it's b0rked again *sigh* --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 08:36, 2 February 2009 (EST)

All of a sudden listings pulled

I have been updating my listings for audio walking tours and all of a sudden they are getting pulled because of external link violations. Only thing different that I did was add a link to the mobile site and the android application... Does anyone know if that possibly could be the reason? Thanks 14:58, 3 February 2009 (EST)

See Wikitravel talk:Where you can stick it#Audio Commentary for Walking Tours (Spam?) . -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:13, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Because people here pull stuff that is NOT TOS violations. Sertman is a great example of this practice. He just pulls some lsitings, while leaving others. Apparently, he especially likes to pull listings for small business, many of whom who actually contribute material, while leaving listings for giant corporations. Like any CEOs from fortune 500 companies are contributing anything worthwhile. Wiki needs a better structure, too many petty people with hypocritical standards are huring the site too much. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ACTransport (talkcontribs)

I presume you are referring to the deletion of your limo service (and plenty of others) from Atlantic City? This is a bit of a borderline case, but they certainly don't belong under "See". Jpatokal 00:50, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Try and appreciate what we are trying to do. We are trying to build a travel site that is relevant to traveler. Not to meet the needs of business owners small or large. Feel free to join the many discussions across the site about how to best accomplish that goal, and incorporate business owners listings in the most useful and relevant way. I don't see any evidence here that anyone has an axe to grind with small business owners, or hypocritical standards. Each person is trying their best to follow policy and build a guide as best they can. --Inas 00:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Yeah, thanks for singling me out, sigh, if you'd care to elaborate and give me some specific examples of this practice, I'd be happy to go back and revise such changes. The only business owners I can recall who've actually stayed and contributed this place is User:HotelsCombined and User:WineCountryInn, if I've missed any such user I'd genuinely really like to know. And the notion that I support fortune 500 companies over small businesses is very much wrong, when I travel I always prefer sleeping or dining at small personal businesses, and hence actually prefer seeing them listed here on wikitravel so I have a better chance to find them. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 02:19, 5 February 2009 (EST)
And a great example of what happens if we leave Wikitravel to the whims of business owners look here (Rome), please tell me how a huge pile of listings with little information but links to their website, compare that to a well moderated sleep section like Copenhagen's downtown, I dare you to come up with some convincing arguments that the Rome example is more useful to travellers. Besides I fail to see how you can justify these accusations since all you ever did around here was to add a link to your business. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:00, 5 February 2009 (EST)

"Help translate" tag proposal

I have been doing some serious work on Ouro Preto and Mariana and other Brazilian locations, and I noticed that, unsurprisingly, there are a lot of destinations for which the English site has but a skeleton, while the Portuguese version is pretty fleshed out. I'm sure this is the case for many other locations in various other languages as well. In order to promote better cooperation between language versions, I'd like to propose a tag or set of tags for these cases, to be placed at the bottom of such an article or possibly even at the top, indicating that a more complete article exists in x language, and compelling users that speak that language to help translate the information here on en:. What do you guys think? Texugo 11:49, 4 February 2009 (EST)

I think that is a great idea. Additionally, it may be helpful to place a smaller tag at the bottom of the superior articles, compelling multilingual users to contribute to the language articles with less information. Jtesla16 15:18, 4 February 2009 (EST)
I think putting a tag in the superior articles would have us with a tag in almost every article we have, since there is bound to be at least one language version without much of an article. The number of articles which have a good article elsewhere but not here are bound to be more manageable I think. Any other thoughts? Texugo 23:17, 11 February 2009 (EST)
That's true. Your original idea is probably best then. How do we go about creating such a tag? Do we need permission? Jtesla16 08:44, 12 February 2009 (EST)
We don't need permission and I can create it if we decide on the text of the message, but I'd like to hear from a few more people and get a little broader consensus before we start.Texugo 09:58, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I think this idea is quite worthwhile, and it would be nice to also create a Wikitravel:Article translation page, on which we'd add a link to each page that has the Template:Translate template. To increase the visibility of the translation page, we could insert links into the Babel templates (e.g., [[Wikitravel:Article translation#Spanish|español]]). Language on Template:Translate could be something like "This article exists on the [[:xx:Article|XX language version]] in superior form. Please help us with translation!" --Peter Talk 11:59, 12 February 2009 (EST)

I like the way this is solved at Wikipedia (or Wiktionary?): they "star" the most high-quality language article (in the list which is already under the Toolbox), thus encouraging to improve other language versions from that starred one. --DenisYurkin 18:03, 14 February 2009 (EST)

What's the Deal?

Ok. I've already tried reaching one of the Systems Operator about this but apparently he is not active. I am having an issue with the admins, one in particular. It's a looong story. But the summary is I try to keep editing pages with incorrect info and it keeps being reverted by the original author who happens in these cases to be a bureaucrat. I've asked for a little counselling from Evan but apparently he isn't around anymore. My fear is the admins are finding it difficult to regulate themselves or abiding by their own rules. Perhaps it is I who am not clear about it but the message I'm getting is stating facts about a place are not important to the traveller.

If you want to read more about this I will post the letter I sent to Evan up on my talk page. If anyone's got some constructive advice and isn't worried about towing the company line then please share. I warn you though it's a bit of a bookPaula 01:00, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Can you elaborate on your problem? Where? AHeneen 01:09, 5 February 2009 (EST)
I do believe Paula has a problem with me, and she's referring to the utterly bizarre saga of Talk:Yeongjong Island (plus possibly a few previous headbuttings on Talk:Dokdo). I've said all I have to say about this, so now I'll shut up and let y'all have your turn. Jpatokal 03:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Jani: We do not know each other. I am not taking this personally. I believe you are this way with everyone. I have a problem with your lack of compromise and your tone. When you are "helping" me, it reads like you are scolding me for f.....g up and your way is the only way. I and I'm thinking most have no agenda when contributing to articles. I at least am doing this simply to share accurate and helpful information on an area I am very familiar with. I simply like the idea of Wikitravel. Therefore I don't appreciate being spoken to like a wayward child or an incompetent employee when we are all doing this basically for the fun of it. Understandable?

I think a number of admins have been observing this particular incident from afar. I personally know nothing about the island in question and haven't gotten involved, but one suggestion I might offer is to refrain from questioning motives and character of other editors as it clouds the issue. Asking for someone who "isn't worried about towing the company line" and accusing admins of "finding it difficult to regulate themselves or abiding by their own rules" is neither relevant nor helpful to resolving any issues you might have with the content of an article. In addition, please understand that the goal is consensus, which means that all sides need to make a good faith effort to at least consider the point of view of those who disagree with them. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:14, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Ryan: Excuse me, but I could not disagree more with the first point. When there are principles stated and people given special privileges/responsibilities to uphold them then there is an expectation they will. When a little power is involved among a smaller group of people, there is always a risk of abuse and "fat-head syndrome." I understand it is not helpful to criticise motives when something happens once in a while. But when it is a similar situation that occurs consistently over a lengthy period of time then it is never wrong to question why everyone who belongs to that group happen to have the exact same perspective.

The whole point of this site is so many people from all over can contribute to it. Not one or a few. If that was the goal then this site would be one of many already out there. Therefore with more voices cum more perspectives. Yes, consensus is good. I agree. But how do we reach consensus? By bullying? By having everyone think the same way? No. It's by using reason, doing some research on the facts and compromising.

Evan is not active here for the foreseeable future, besides Evan and Jptokal have been working together pretty closely for a number of years, so I doubt you would find much sympathy on that front, in any case, the way this place works, is if you think an admin is crossing a line, you take it up with one of the other active admins. (you can see a list here). Also, while I know Jptokal's direct style can often leave quite a bit to be desired, you often come across as overly aggressive yourself, which isn't exactly helping things, least of all if you are crying out for backup. Also in this case, reverting to an "edit war" is just about the worst thing you can do in these circumstances.
Now regarding the issue at hand, I think you might have misinterpreted the motives behind the edits, which I suspect would be 1) The traveller comes first 2) We want as simple a structure as possible. Now I've never been north of Gyeongju, and hence not an expert on anything Seoul, but it seems like the only ones that would really be hurt and sad we would call this amalgamated island Yeongjong, would be locals on Yongyu, and they hardly need a travel guide. most maps I could find, identify it as one island anyway (lest one from where the airport was still under construction): [2], [3], [4], [5]. Which leads be to point 2, the amount of content in the guide hardly merits a split. If this is really something you'd loose sleep over, i would suggest either that you fill in so much useful content for Yeongyu, that it make sense to split the article, or that we discuss a rename the whole shabang to "Yeongjong-Yeongyu island", but from my light research on the subject, it does seem pointless as most places refer to the airport as being on Yeongjong, wikipedia even writes "The previously separate Yongyu, Sammok, and Sinbul Islands have been joined to Yeongjong Island by an area of reclaimed land". --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:13, 23 January 2009 (EST)
Ha, Ha. You'd be laughing too if you saw my letter to Evan. What you have written is exactly what I had assumed and predicted the problems are with Wikitravel. You have confirmed to me that the "Old Boys Club" mentality is as pervasive as I feared it was. At least you freely admit the obvious bias that exists within the admins and which you demonstrate yourself. So, you will forgive me if I don't consider your criticism of what you perceive to be my "overly aggressive" ways as credible. Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)
It is not a "cry...for backup" as you put it that I am looking for, it is the observance to the original ideals, objectivity, fairness and the freedom to make legitamite edits, of the site that I was demanding. And when I did not receive that from the people I thought most committed to those principles I was taken aback and responded concurrently.Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)
By the way, I was not the one who had asked for the page to be blocked. I am always willing to compromise and have in the past. And if Evan is not active why has he not been removed on the active list?Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)
No.1: If the traveller comes first shouldn't we be giving them accurate information? Does that not count as being necessary? It's not about, "my pony is prettier than your pony." It's about do these things exist or not. Is this information necessary or not? I don't know about you. I REALLY don't know about you but that's what I understand as the "traveller coming first" to mean. If the facts are not important and you refuse to see them and what you're really interested in is creating your own terms for places and inventing things because it's easier or follows some arbitrary guideline beknownst only to you and your band of bureacrats then PLEASE, PLEASE tell me now. I will be happy to let you have your way so you can play with yourselves. But if you genuinely are interested in accepting accurate information that is helpful to anyone visiting these places then believe you me, my "aggression" will subside.
No.2: Have you actually seen my edits? You would be hard pressed to see a simpler structure in some of them. I would be hurt. Every Korean local I have explained this bizarre argument I'm having with y'all would be hurt. And most importantly, anyone trying to get to the beaches and markets on Yongyu Island would be hurt. The official Incheon tourist map lists it as an island [6], Wikipedia describes the map as Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island [7], the description on the link YOU listed also describes it as Yeongjong and Yongyu Island [8], the airport PR Centre confirms that distinction as well. I mean WTF? Even information you and Jani have listed say exactly what I'm saying. I mean which part is difficult to understand? Every official body acknowledges this. There are 2 islands and the airport is on reclaimed land between them. That's it. Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)Paula 00:48, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Hmmm maybe we have a clash of cultures here, but I was actually trying to mediate, because I feel that if we could reconcile our differences, and come to a mutual understanding, you have the potential to become a good contributor, and hence I was not trying to "gang up", and being active around here for less than year, I hardly think I'd count among any "Old Boys club". Jani suggested that most travellers consider this one island, and I provided some links to maps and wikipedia suggesting he was not alone with this view - when you're trying to work out a compromise, the first thing you should do is trying to appreciate the reverse view. Next I suggested a possible compromise renaming the article to "Yeongjong-Yeongyu islands", this seem reasonable to me, as it is indisputably now one island physically, and travellers arrive smack in the middle of the joint entity, hence I suspect anyone not familiar with Korea, would search information about the "island" he has landed on, unaware that this used to be two islands. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 02:41, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Sertmann: Clash of cultures. How so? I appreciate you trying to explain your message. I believe I have addressed our correspondence in the message above. However, I should point this out for future reference when someone is complaining of being "ganging uped on" it is unnecessary to state that opinion as also being your own.

For the latter point, I also think it is reasonable to use both names for the article. I have never disputed it is physically one island. What is being disputed is whether that physically one island should rightfully be referred to as Yeonjongdo. It should be noted that Coney Island and Long Island in New York are also physically one big island. They too were formerly separate islands that were then stuck together by reclaimed land. And although they are part of New York they are by no means one big Coney Island. I knew watching that Britney Murphy movie would come in handy one of these days.

There is no "old boys' club" here-- most of us have never met each other, and we certainly do not always agree with each other. I don't know much about this particular case but it seems to me that 1) they are now physically one island, regardless of whether part of it is artificial or not, and therefore 2) even if locals still refer to them as separate islands, what is really meant is that they are still distinct, even though have become districts of what is now the same island, and 3) there is not enough information present to warrant splitting this into two articles. I might suggest making it clear in the intro that there are two basic districts here, and I wouldn't mind if the listings told which part they were in as part of the address/directions. Certainly no one is trying to quash listings on the Yongyu side. Sertmann's suggestion may have some merit, although I might suggest leaving "islands" out of the title and just call it "Yeongjong-Yeongyu" to avoid misrepresentation. Even if kept at simply "Yeongjong", I think the "island" part should probably be dropped from the title, since it includes things not on the Yeongjong side-- it's one thing to redirect a neighboring district, admitting that we have done so, but quite another to say that Yeongjong is now the name of the whole she-bang when that may not be quite true. Texugo 06:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Tuxego: "There is no 'old boys' club' here." Says you, old boy;) Latter part sounds reasonable except for the leaving out the island part.

But they are not distinct in any meaningful sense: once you cross the bridge from the mainland, you're on one island, period, and the Korean National Tourism Organization (how much more authoritative can you get?) labels the whole island "Yeongjongdo" [29] [30]. Jpatokal 08:23, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Jani: Thought you said you'd shut up.

I lied. Now, what do you have to say about the KNTO links above? Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Surprise, surprise. I have this to say: [31][32]. It's called different information from the same source. HAH!Paula 03:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
If both names are used locally, however, wouldn't it make sense to include them both? LtPowers 08:59, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Both names are used in the 'Understand' section (though, I'm not sure why 'real' is included). Why not just move the text in the understand section into the lead (since it includes references to both the airport as well as the beaches - useful stuff from the travelers point of view). That way, both names are included and the reader gets a succinct description of the place. --Wandering 10:53, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Above all, please assume good faith. When an issue starts to get you upset, it's a good idea to take a step back, and remember that the way some geographic location is described on some travel wiki is not ultimately that big of a deal. Personally, I don't think you are correct on this matter (this [33] looks pretty clearly like one island to me), but more importantly, this dispute is simply not relevant for travelers, and I think we would all be better served by trying to add travel content (where to go, what to see, etc.) than continuing this dispute. --Peter Talk 14:28, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Y'all: Hmmm. Maybe I should've put this here a lot sooner. Good to see reasonable differing solutions. I've taken in all that's been written, will do some editing and see what happens. Thank you much and peace.Paula 03:53, 6 February 2009 (EST)

I suggest that, instead of editing the page, you list your present concerns with the current content of the article on the Talk page, and we get a third party to change the wording. Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)

. Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Nice try Patakaillo. I think "my concerns" have been more than sufficiently outlined on this page, the Yeongjong do page and my own page. I offer that a third party review the edits I do and if again there is more disagreement then we cross that bridge when we get to it. Paula 03:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)

What would y'all think if I title the article Incheon International Airport and describe its location and surroundings in the subsequent headings? I think it would make more sense to put the focus on the airport itself instead of the islands which would take care of the whole debate.Paula 00:53, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I think that would be misleading, because unlike (eg) Kansai or Chubu airports, there is more on the island(s) than just the airport. Jpatokal 07:53, 10 February 2009 (EST)
THIRD PARTY please!Paula 03:29, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Is there anything else of significant interest on the island than the airport? If there are points of interest then I would stick to the islands name because i would search for the island name instead of the airport. Maybe it would be good to have some add-on like if there are a golf course, spa, posh temple etc. to pass the time while on transit. This would interest me. jan 16:21, 11 February 2009 (EST)
(ec) It is kind of hard for a third party to suggest something, but let me try. It seems that there is stuff to do on the island independently of the airport (ironically, the stuff to do appears to be on Yongyu Island!) suggesting that, for Koreans anyway, the island(s) may be a destination independent of the airport. If that is the case, I suggest leaving it as is, popping the reference to Yongyu and its beaches into the lead (presumably, the Koreans who visit only the beaches will distinguish between the two islands), and leaving it at that. Incheon International Airport as well as Yongyu Island can then redirect to this article. But, I don't know enough (nothing is a better word) to know if this is wise or accurate so this is just a suggestion. --Wandering 16:22, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Sigh — Paula just went ahead and moved the article to Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island, without any discussion. I agree with User:Wandering that including "Yongyu Island" in the lead is OK, but I see no reason to saddle the article with such a verbose name. → Talk:Yeongjong Island Jpatokal 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Wikitravel:Collaboration of the month

Our collaboration(s) of the week/month project has been broken for over a year now, with the collaborations getting little if any attention, and even the collaboration process going without updates on a regular basis. We've tossed around a lot of different ideas to rejuvenate the process, and I'd like to see the latest incarnation get a fighting chance.

Please stop by the Wikitravel:Collaboration of the month page to see what's changed, take a look at the tasks we're hoping to accomplish for this month's collaboration (Mexico City), and try to make a few edits over the rest of this month to our collaboration! I'm sure everyone has the time to make some mos edits to even just one "Mid-range" section of one "Eat" section of one district article. Plunge forward! --Peter Talk 18:12, 5 February 2009 (EST).

Front Page

Along with the Collaborations of Month, we have a few other prominent embarrassments on our front page, the news section and the discover sections...

Wikitravel News Team

I'd like to float the idea of starting a News Team, and while that might sound ambitious for the amount of regulars we have around here, I was merely toying with the thoughts of writing up a couple of user names on a project page somewhere, and set it as a personal goal for these users to come up with two travel related news stories per month, which really shouldn't be all that hard.

Rotating discover

What's the status of that bot, can anyone reprogram it? I was thinking (without knowing anything about the scripting) we could divide these into two categories - a date specific category which shows up once in the relevant time frame, and a rotating category where we add all the old (and any new) general discover items and rotate between them on a daily basis, and use these to fill up where we don't have any date specific items. We should already have so many of these items, that it would be a decent time frame between the individual items showing up. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:12, 5 February 2009 (EST)

I think having an expedition or the like for the news is a good idea and sounds interesting. I definitely agree we could do a better job with the news. I'd be curious to know what the bot's status is too. JYolkowski 21:36, 10 February 2009 (EST)
Same here, having a "News Expedition" sounds like an excellent idea! The news section is rather pathetic as it stands now. PerryPlanet Talk 14:30, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I've created Wikitravel:News Expedition. Anyone who's interested, I'd invite you to visit that page and discuss. Thanks, JYolkowski 22:39, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Problem with right alignment for images

I just noticed something strange about the images on some pages. Sometimes they straddle the right margin, obscuring the advertisements in the margin. Can anyone shed some light on that subject? Jonathan 784 23:44, 7 February 2009 (EST)

Phantom edit errors

I have been editing the article for Hamamatsu, and I have noticed that for certain listings, when I click on the listing's edit button, I get a pop-up error message in red, reading "Listing has been changed by somebody else. Please reload the page and reedit." For an example, try "Nakatajima Sand Dunes" under the See sections, or "Toraya" under budget eat section. Nobody else is actually editing the page, and the problem still exists even after purging the page. Anyone have an idea as to what is going on? Texugo 06:23, 8 February 2009 (EST)

I encountered the same problem when editing a listing on Newfoundland and Labrador. When I tried to edit the Cape Race listing using the edit form I got a red warning message, but no form. I found that if I purged the page cache (first, I think) and edited the listing via the page edit section link then the problem went away. I could then access/edit the listing using the edit listing form again. I suspect what the message means is that the pages in the cache and the database are not synchronised, so purging the cache is needed. The link to purge the page cache is at the bottom of the edit form page. - Huttite 06:55, 8 February 2009 (EST)
As I said, I tried purging the cache, and I did edit the Sand Dunes listing from the section link, but the individual edit link still didn't work afterward...Texugo 06:58, 8 February 2009 (EST)
What I did do was change the URL inside the listing tag. Perhaps it is the content of the listing tag itself that needs to be edited, not just the text after the tag. Perhaps try removing the listing tag then adding it back? Brutal, but ... you never know. - Huttite 07:08, 8 February 2009 (EST)
The listing editor is really buggy, which is a problem, since it's purpose is to make editing easier for new/casual users. --Peter Talk 17:28, 8 February 2009 (EST)

Wikitravel sucks?

You're telling me...

For anyone else? Page loading usually takes an incredible amount of time (~30 seconds per page?), although it occasionally works fine for about 5 minutes. I get logged out randomly, particularly when page loading is really slow. Occasionally I'll be logged in without my logged-in tabs (move, delete, etc.). These problems are occurring for me on Shared & other language versions as well. Am I wallowing alone in this server cesspool? Or is this happening to other users? --Peter Talk 10:44, 9 February 2009 (EST)

I don't seem to be having any trouble here. *crosses fingers* Texugo 10:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Pages are loading very slow already this morning. Now it is a bit better but still slower than normal jan 11:07, 9 February 2009 (EST) ...but the purging isse is back. I could not see the comment of Texugo before i entered my text and purged jan 11:09, 9 February 2009 (EST)
It's very sporadic for me. The site was unusable for most of the morning. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:47, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Very slow this morning. Quite a few too many connection errors. Several connection refused errors. Cached content seems okay, but recent change diffs are so slow as to be effectively unusable. Sucks. --Inas 22:05, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Swings from good to not even loading, like Ryan described. And here I thought it was just my internet connection... PerryPlanet Talk 12:02, 10 February 2009 (EST)
For the most part, the site is simply unusable for me (for editing purposes). It might be worthwhile to try and get IB's attention, but I'll abstain—dealing with them usually dampens my Wikitravel enthusiasm. --Peter Talk 12:27, 10 February 2009 (EST)
Should be better now. KevinSours 15:37, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I emailed IB - here is their response for anyone who is curious:

Hello Ryan!  Thank you for reporting the slowdown.  We made significant
updates to the page caches, et al. and the Wiki should be speedier than


-- Ryan • (talk) • 16:20, 10 February 2009 (EST)

And so it appears --Inas 17:19, 10 February 2009 (EST)
for an hour or so, anyway.. --Inas 22:43, 10 February 2009 (EST)
Is there still a problem? I checked the webservers this morning and everything seems to be fine KevinSours 10:36, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Nevermind, I see it KevinSours 11:04, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Speed is back almost changing between zero & ok with minutes. Worked well for one hour but now i give up for todayjan 16:08, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Scheduled down time for maintenance

Tonight, 2/11, the site will be down for scheduled maintenance for about 3 hours beginning at 10PM PST. Visitors who come to the site during that time will see a "Down for Maintenance" page. We apologize for the inconvenience. JuCo 16:05, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Is it a problem for English version to update MediaWiki:Sitenotice ? -- Tatata 20:55, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I've done that. Admins, please revert my change after the maintenance work is finished. --Peter Talk 22:33, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Thank you for your patience during this week’s maintenance. We upgraded the hardware, the database server got a memory upgrade and we added an additional webserver. This will address the speed and timing out issues and make the site faster and more stable. We will be monitoring the site for any issues. Thanks! JuCo 15:52, 13 February 2009 (EST)
The upgrades are much appreciated. Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:50, 13 February 2009 (EST)

As long as this issue appears every several months--maybe IB can establish an objective and publicly-available metrics of site performance? Percentage of pageviews that took 0-0.1s, 0.1-0.5s, 0.5-2s, 2-5s, 5-10s, 10+ seconds, shown in historical dynamics, would make much easier to understand whether particular user's problem is really a sitewide, or not. --DenisYurkin 22:02, 14 February 2009 (EST)

Watch listing a user

User:The NOW seems to have some pretty adamant ideas about racism and homosexuality in the south, is there any way to watch list registered users so I/we don't accidentally miss some of his (at times rather offensive) edits? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:22, 17 February 2009 (EST)

Yeongjong and Yongyu

Argh. I need help with screw up. Trying to rename the page but for some reason it went to the mispelled one and redirected the correct page to it. Now I can't put the article under the correct heading. Can someone delete Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island? There's nothing there. Thanx.Paula 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)


Wikitravel is mentioned in a xkcd [34] webcomic! --Flip666 writeme! • 09:16, 25 February 2009 (EST)



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