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(Can someone translate Sibiu?)
Line 424: Line 424:
:Well can someone translate the article? There's a lot more about [[Sibiu]] in English than Romanian. -[[User:PierreAbbat|phma]] 21:38, 3 Sep 2004 (EDT)
:Well can someone translate the article? There's a lot more about [[Sibiu]] in English than Romanian. -[[User:PierreAbbat|phma]] 21:38, 3 Sep 2004 (EDT)
::I was the one who wrote the article on [[Sibiu]] in English, so I will translate it in Romanian too on the RO Wikitravel. I have already started doing this. Sorry for not logging in - it seems too cumbersome a process sometimes. The reason why I changed the text and not the picture is because, frankly, I couldn't find a picture of the city and the picture of Prague looked so nice (and, in many ways, similar to how Sibiu is like). In any case, I have found a decent picture from Wikipedia to put, even though I don't particularly like it. Cheers, [[User:Ronline|Ronline]] 22:28, 4 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Revision as of 02:32, 5 September 2004

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'. Also, if you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the Mediawiki software, please post that on the Bug reports page instead.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page, but otherwise plunge forward!



Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

Stuff that's been moved:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for very old discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

I was about to nuke the New User Deluge section when I realized there's no logbook entry. Do you want want before it gets deleted?
Also, New User Deluge seemed more like conversation about events than a discussion about policy. Am I right to think that policy questions should be preserved, but discussions and chatter can be deleted outright once they are done? -- Colin 02:22, 5 May 2004 (EDT)
Alright, I've done a bit of sweeping here. I'm not exactly sure if I'm doing it right, so I'll stop for now and wait to see if anyone has any comments. I just blew away some discussion that haven't had contributions in over a month. For some of them, where it seemed the discussion may be important in the future, I archived them. There are others which still seem relevant or as if they could fit into the FAQ, but I'm not sure where to put them, so I've left them in the pub (even though they're quite old). --Dawnview 17:57, 6 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Hungarian Wikitravel Expedition

I've just started an expedition trying to create a Hungarian language version of Wikitravel. I think that it is time for us to have finally a free, easy to use and detailed travel guide.

Hungarian Wikitravel Expedition

If there are any Hungarians around give me a sign.

Lacisoft 20:08, 24 Apr 2004 (EDT)

BBC Persian

Wikitravel is the featured site of the week on BBC Persian. --Evan 14:25, 27 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Sister project with similar licence starting

Hello, we are starting a another wiki web site. It will be called Wiki Sex Site and should be both an encyclopedia about sex and related topics, and a place to keep wikified sex stories. We would like to use the same CC licence you are ussing here. It would make it much simple for our users. Unfortumately it is not that easy to set up. We are running mediawiki 1.2.4 Does anybody have any idea whichh pages should be changed? How? Also a list of the relevant source code in wikitravel would be really helpful. Many thanks W.s.s. sysop

Separate wiki for Seattle, WA; request for comments

I've been wanting for a while to start a wiki site about Seattle, WA -- a kind of "guide" aimed mostly for Seattle locals. I recently found WikiTravel and at first thought this would do it, but it seems WikiTravel is aimed more to travelers planning trips. Whereas here there is one page only on Seattle, the seattle wiki would be a whole site devoted to it, so I think it's worth pursuing.

That said, I was hoping to be able to "steal" a lot of ideas from WikiTravel, including pages on how the site works, user help, etc. I don't want to replicate effort, but there's a lot of good stuff here that I could use. And the Seattle page could be useful for stub articles to get things started.

I know I can probably do all this because of the CC license, but I wanted to see if Wikitravellers had any input, ideas, or gripes about this idea.

-- Matiasp 21:53, 2 May 2004 (EDT)

Hi, Matias! Yes, Wikitravel is more for travellers than for residents. Where a Wikitravel article might have 20 restaurants for Seattle, a real city guide would have all the restaurants.
One good group that's doing city guides is They've got good software and are probably more what you're looking for. See Cooperating with OpenGuides for Wikitravel's relationship with OG. Good luck -- sounds like a good project! --Evan 01:01, 4 May 2004 (EDT)
Matias - Hi, Earle here, one of the OpenGuides team. Evan's right, that does sound exactly like what we're aiming for! Drop us a line at and we can talk. --Earle 09:54, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies Evan and Earle. Earle, I'll take a look at OpenGuides and email you guys about it soon. -- Matiasp 00:54, 8 May 2004 (EDT)

Prix Ars Electronica

My congratulations to Evan and all of the Wikitravel team for winning an honorary mention in this year's Prix Ars Electronica. --Earle 09:54, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Earle. Just to set the record straight, it was Maj who did most of the hard work applying for the Prix. And, of course, it's the hundreds of Wikitravellers who make this digital community a success. --Evan 09:34, 4 May 2004 (EDT)

Illegal activities policy?

Should we have a policy about listing/promoting Illegal activities? Recently I have noticed a number of article contributions describing illegal or dangerous activities and related inappropriate subjects. Some of these contributions have been removed or changed by others, but we do not have a general policy on this area other than a Sex tourism policy. What is our standard? Where do we draw the line? -- Huttite 20:42, 7 May 2004 (EDT)

I did one of the edits Huttite is talking about -- I removed a reference to marijuana quality from Vancouver. Speaking as a law-abiding non-drug user, I think we should have a policy against mentioning drugs (and other activities) in places where they are illegal. But that is not why I removed the marijuana reference. I felt that saying Vancouver had good pot was a lot like saying it had blue skies -- it's subjective and irrelevant for most travellers.

Are there any illegal activities we do need to mention? When the speed limit was in the US was 55 mph, driving just 55 was unsafe in some areas, and would have been a good thing to mention. Are there any more serious examples of illegal activities that we need to mention? -- Colin 14:10, 8 May 2004 (EDT)
I'm wondering whether pointing out an illegal activity (by the way, isn't pot smoking decriminalized in Canada) is advocating or promoting it. I think there's a fine line to walk. Of course, putting travellers in jeopardy by telling them that it's just fine to do illegal things is wrong. --Evan 12:51, 22 May 2004 (EDT)
I wouldn't say that just simply pointing out an illegal activity is wrong, unless you don't mention that it's illegal (e.g. "Lots of people jaywalk in Taipei."). I agree with your statement: it's irresponsible to suggest that an illegal activity is OK, regardless of how 'accepted' it may be by the locals. If anything the articles should point out (and suggest not engaging in) illegal activities that carry penalties that are heavier than the 'typical' penalty, such as chewing gum in Singapore, smuggling drugs into Thailand, etc.. -- Sohcahtoa 08:43, 2004 May 23 (EDT)
I think there are a number of circumstances where there is a definite need to mention illegal activities. Case in point is hash / dope / opium smoking in Morocco's Rif Mountains and the hill tribes of Laos. Most backpackers in these regions aren't solely drug tourists, but it would be naive to suggest that they don't sample the local 'produce' ... which often plays a large part in regional culture and pratices. A straw poll I took of travellers in Morocco suggests that the majority try some hash at least once on their trip. When you consider that in the Rif mountains dope is the main cash crop and most locals smoke it, this isn't surprising. Given these realities, I think it's important that a travel guide stress that drug possession is illegal, recommend against consumption, but having said that also describe the drug's role in the region and give tips for staying safe. -- Allyak 08:17, Jul 30, 2004 (EDT)


Imagine encoding Wikitravel URLs with this... That'd be a rather nifty way to spread wikitravel information. -- Nils 09:21, 11 May 2004 (EDT)

Shotgun Approach To Sleep

Filling in sections like sleep is a hassle, takes time to research, and is also very helpful. We need more sleep entries. Lots more sleep entries. In the Bay Area where I live, few cities are even begun, and fewer have sleep entries.

So I have an idea: I could go through a selection of Well Known Motel and Hotel chains, find all the ones in my region (San Francisco Bay Area) and then add them to any cities in my area needing extra Sleep entries (creating the city article as needed). This would get a boatload of cities started, and each of them would have sleep entries. And it would be fast and efficient to do.

The bad news of this that I have no basis for judging any of them, and non-chain hotels and motels get the shaft, and that sucks.

So is it worth doing? Or a bad idea? -- Colin 02:59, 28 May 2004 (EDT)

It's a fantastic idea! I've long been an advocate of using on-line research to fill in the sleep listings to the extent possible. In my opinion, as discussed here It's absolutely valid to summarise (but not copy) reviews found on the web and elsewhere. eg:
  • Seaside Hotel, 123 charming lane. +01 555 555 5555. This cheapie gets mostly positive reviews for cleanlyness etc., although it's fair to point out that more than one review found online mentions that although the place is about 4 blocks from the sea there are a lot of buildings in between, and thus no view. starting at 39 Eur. singles
Key ideas to consider for a summary approach:
    • Clearly express that you are writing from a collection of reviews, not first-hand experience.
    • Use more than one source.
    • DO NOT COPY people's words; ideas however, are fair game.
Taking this approach it's possible to list places which aren't chains as well! -- Mark 03:47, 28 May 2004 (EDT)
Maybe I need to clarify, maybe not. My suggestion is to go to a Major Chain's website, and crib a bunch of places in the Bay Area for that one chain. Then go to Major Chain #2's website, rinse and repeat. But your idea is nice in that it also picks up on the non-chains too. Hmm. Maybe one pass through the big chains, then once pass through search sites to pick up some extras and then multi-source the reviews? -- Colin 03:53, 28 May 2004 (EDT)
Yes, exactly. The chains are easy, and from there we find small places that people seem to like to write about. While you're doing chain hotels in the U.S. I would recommend checking out [this chain of midrange boutique hotels.] -- Mark 04:04, 28 May 2004 (EDT)
Okay, I'll start on it. Thanks for the hotel pointer, I'll be sure to include them. I'd like to generate a range of hotels.... I'm thinking Motel6 (cheapest), Best Western (medium), Marriot (more expensive). Anyone have any I need to add to the list, or better lists? -- Colin 04:08, 28 May 2004 (EDT)
I'd be careful with the price ranking. While it's true that in some smaller places like maybe Minot that Marriot, if they have a presence will be the top of the line, in other places like San Francisco or Chicago Mariott will probably have entries in the low mid range as well as low-splurge range, so it's worth checking out. Another cheapie chain is Day's Inn. for mid-range and splurge hotels there´s Hilton, and of course there's also a chain for the very top of the line. -- Mark 04:26, 28 May 2004 (EDT)
Here are some more, cheapie: Best Inns, midrange: Holiday Inn and splurge: Hotel Intercontinental. -- Mark 04:37, 28 May 2004 (EDT)

Travel Stories as Info

I noticed that an entry was needed for Jaipur. I visited it for a few days during an India trip in fall 2002, so i decided to drop some notes on it. I decided the best way to relay my advice on a particular topic i knew about in that city, safety, was to write up a story. Its not short, but i think it conveys an important aspect of Jaipur quite nicely. Is there, or should there be a travel story section, so that maybe i wouldn't need to stuff this in the Jaipur entry (if so please feel free to move the story)? Check it out at - NB 5-28-04

Ok Apparently somebody didn't like the story idea; I admit it was a bit long. I filled in some more traditional travel book info, and am working on getting a couple pictures i took uploaded. Is there a section where a travel story would be appropriate?
Just finished putting up pictures. NB (now Nick)
She only moved the story to Talk:Jaipur, rather than deleting it. We mostly try to stick to a Wikitravel:Manual of style for our guides, and one of the guidelines is to avoid writing in the first person. Sometimes I find this kindof difficult, since it makes it hard to express some ideas. That said it makes sense when you think of each article as a stand-alone guide to the place which somebody can use to find their way around. Meanwhile the talk pages obviously are full of first-person opinions, etc. -- Mark 05:23, 29 May 2004 (EDT)

"Open Maps?"

There's an article on Slashdot about Open Maps. Considering this is one of our big problems on Wikitravel, I think it makes interesting reading. --Evan 18:59, 29 May 2004 (EDT)


Can anybody explain what's the story behind "The Wikitravel Mirror" with the ambingously similar address ? It seems to access the original database and makes deep links onto some pages. The ugly difference between the "mirror" and the original is an additional link collection and an advertising banner on each page. --Hansm 15:17, 2004 Jun 5 (EDT)

I don't know what it is, but comparing its content with some of my contributions it is certainly a good month out of date. Obviously we cannot complain about this site's use of wikitravel content, but I'm personally a bit miffed about the way it is masquarading as a mirror, when clearly it is a very poor mirror, if at all. Chris j wood 19:14, 5 Jun 2004 (EDT)
It looks as if the site's owner tries to make money with confused people that misstype the URL. Follwing the link "My Sites", you are lead to a list of so called "mirrors" that all work the same way: They are a partly outdated copy of free licensed sites, often with some advertising banners added. I think there is at least one point about that we could complain. The "mirror" pretents to be the original and deep links the real wikitravel when you click on the "edit" item. This is a very dirty way of "mirroring". Of course, in the footer there is a short remark that the pages base on, but that does not seem to be enough. For me, it were all right if it would just mirror the content and make obvious that the "edit", "discussion" etc. faetures are done on the original wikitravel site. -- Hansm 05:52, 2004 Jun 6 (EDT)
But unlike the other "mirrors" we dealt with before, this one gives proper credit. There's no "thou shalt not make money off the content" clause in the license. Nor is there a clause "you must be up to date". I really don't see any angle from which you could stop this guy. Hell, they even redirect the "Edit" links to, which is the way it should be. Of course I agree what he's doing is immoral - linking to "directories" as "" is as scummy as they come. -- Nils

World wide emergency numbers

May be useful to incorporate this information into the various country pages. -- Nils

Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club

Where can I object the deletion of Wikitravel:Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club? I don't really understand why it was necessary to do so... It was a very good way to know more about fellow Wikitravellers, and also to have more cooperation between the HC and the Wikitravel project... I really wonder why the things that happened happened... Guaka 12:50, 21 Jun 2004 (EDT)

I have no idea how to restart a discussion about a deleted page. You can find the discussion surrounding the issue in the Page History of Wikitravel:Votes for deletion. That said, I have mixed feelings about bringing up the issue again. On the one hand, you seem to have missed the discussion and it would have been nice to have your participation. On the other hand, in general, re-opening contraversial issues is a worrisome concept. -- Colin 13:37, 21 Jun 2004 (EDT)
So, there are three things you're asking: the first, I think, is to get an explanation for the arguments as to why to delete that particular article. I think that Veit copied the arguments out of the history pages to his user page (see User:Veit#Entire_page_deleted), and there's some more discussion at Wikitravel talk:Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club (although I'm going to list that on v.f.d. now, since I found it. Not much use having a talk page for a page that's been deleted!). Note that the page was deleted according to the Wikitravel:Deletion policy -- it was listed on Wikitravel:votes for deletion for more than 7 days.
The second question I'm hearing is how to object to a deletion after it's happened. I'm guessing you didn't get a chance to do that before, or that you didn't notice it. If you wanted to just post a general objection, I'd guess that here in the pub is a good place, or maybe on Wikitravel talk:votes for deletion.
I think the final implied question is, how do you go about getting that page back? We haven't done that before, and we don't have a process for it. If you wanted to start a discussion about that, Wikitravel talk:deletion policy would be a good place to put it.
As a personal note, I'd ask that you help with Wikitravel:Cooperating with Hospitality Club. You have been a longtime Wikitraveller, and it seems to me that you've got some experience with the Club, so you'd probably be a really good person to give input on that page. I'd like to see some creative ways to make that relationship work -- especially ways that HC can help Wikitravel achieve our goal of making a free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide with a neutral point of view. --Evan 14:36, 21 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Ok. I left some text here and there. I think the deletion policy needs some work. Guaka 08:22, 22 Jun 2004 (EDT)
There's now a Wikitravel:Deletion policy#undeletion procedure, based mostly on your request and input. --Evan 14:08, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Dump available ?


Where are database dumps avaliable ? This is specially important as SQL queries are disabled. With a dump, SQL queries can done at home on my own computer. Yann 09:05, 26 Jun 2004 (EDT)

I've created wik2dict and like to have Wikitravel in the dict format now :) It would be nice if the dump uses the same format as the Wikipedia SQL dump. Otherwise I need to hack some more. Guaka 13:56, 2 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Bugs and requests


There are still bugs with thumbnails (at least on fr:). However this was mentioned long ago, and is corrected in Mediawiki since a long time too. Also I did request some changes / features which have not met any answer (the possibility to change the RC page head among others). Thanks, Yann 09:47, 26 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Hi. So, I'm planning on doing an upgrade of MediaWiki in about a week. Watch this space! --Evan 12:15, 26 Jun 2004 (EDT)
OK, thanks Evan. Yann 18:09, 26 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Are thumbnails available now? What is the syntax? Jpatokal 01:49, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Food pages

I'm planning on writing a page on food in Malaysia and Singapore, covering the cuisines in the region and typical dishes in detail. Questions that I'd like some feedback on:

  1. How should this article in particular be named? There is (AFAIK) no single word that accurately describes it; "Nonya"/"Peranakan" are a specific subtype (Malay-Chinese fusion); while "Malayan", while geographically accurate, is bound to be confused with "Malay".
  2. In general, should articles dedicated to food in region X be called eg. "X food", "X cuisine", or something else?

As a reference point, the only existing article along these lines that I could find is Chinese cuisine in the San Francisco Bay Area. I'll be writing overviews of Japanese and Thai food in the near future as well.

In general there probably shouldn't be pages about the food of a region, but rather than information should be imbedded into the Eat section of the destination page for the region. Check out Wikitravel:What_is_an_article.
I disagree with this (and so does eg. Lonely Planet, which sells entire guides devoted to food). There is no region for Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei, and if I start writing even a brief overview of every significant cuisine in every ASEAN country under South-East Asia#Eat, it'll soon be the longest page in Wikitravel! Jpatokal 02:45, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Generally the rule of thumb is "do you sleep there?". There have been discussions about creating itinerary articles about types of cooking though, so perhaps if you really want to write about food you should create an Itinerary.
As for the article about chinese food in S.F., I'm wondering why it's still around. -- Mark 02:14, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Ugh. Umm, I think Chinese cuisine in the San Francisco Bay Area, as a fairly controversial article, would be a bad model to follow. I'd question whether a full article on this or that cuisine belongs in a travel guide, too. I'm ambiguous on the matter. Would Italian cuisine, say, cover all the food variations that go under that name -- in Asia, North America, Europe, and of course Italy? Or would it simply concentrate on food in Italy -- which I think is what Italy#Eat is for? What do we need to tell a traveller about Italian cuisine?
My general feeling: I'd hate to see [[Foobian cuisine]] take the place of Foo#Eat, since they are two different topics. But I guess I could see some room for experimentation. I'm reminded of the Wikitravel:Cultural Expedition here for some reason... Anyways, excellent questions! --Evan 02:27, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Agree with Evan here. I think Foo#Eat should cover types of eating places, expected costs, etiquette notes and such, while Foobian cuisine should cover the menu of a typical restaurant in Foo (or a Foobian restaurant in Bar). Jpatokal 02:45, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Look at Singapore as an example. Singapore#Eat now tells you about the amenity and price differences between a hawker centre, a coffeeshop and a food court, and these should stay there, while the "Local delicacies" part is what I want to expand on and move into its own page. Jpatokal 02:45, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Well you mentioned an interesting word there-- "local." How do you talk about food with out talking about a place? If you have Malaysian food for example, it's fairly different in say Amsterdam then in Malaysia, so you'll end up with an article by-location anyway, why not just put that in the Eat section for that location? I know LP does Food Guides too, but those are travel-related guides, with itiniraries maps and whatnot, but not the same thing as their travel guides (otherwise they wouldnt be seperate books).
And this is exactly why I want to use separate pages! Look into pretty much any guidebook on (say) Thailand or Japan; they'll almost always have a dedicated set of color pages covering the food on a general level. Jpatokal 22:08, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)
If I want Malaysian food I generally look for it where I am, not plan a trip to Amsterdam to try what they have... It's easier to think about a Singaporian cuisine page than, say, a Chinese or Mexican food page-- things that have versions in just about evevery country (dont get me started about "tacos" in Nepal!)... I think there is room for lots of food info (I'm a big foodie myself) without loosing the destination-centric style we have now... just my 2 pieces of tapas. Majnoona 12:19, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)
But "cuisine" is a larger concept than "destination". Eg. you can find good bak kut teh restaurants in Singapore's West Coast, central Singapore and Kuala Lumpur (just to mention existing articles); does it make any sense to repeat the (fairly extensive...) description of what this is and how to eat it in every article? If there's a good khao soi joint in Bangkok, do I have to link to some restaurant under Chiang Mai#Eat for the description, and have the link break when the restaurant disappears?
Oh well. I'll plow ahead now and draft up Malaysian and Singaporean cuisine, feel free to comment. Jpatokal 22:08, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Here's another idea. Hope it isn't heretical (I believe Evan prefers Wikitravel to be self-standing): Put the cuisine stuff in Wikipedia (there's an article already started that sounds just like what you want to do) and then it can be referenced in Wikitravel whenever and wherever it is appropriate.

Site Guides

When I get some more time (I have a PhD to write.... oh the guilt that I'm even on here....!) I'd like to add quite a bit to the Egypt, Israel and Jordan parts of Wikitravel - parts of the world I'm particularly familar with and fond of. To my mind, part of providing a good travel guide might involve putting up some moderately detailed guides to the various sites within a location. For example, rather than just listing the Temple of Luxor as a site to See in Luxor, it would be great to add some explanation as to history, excavation, a guide to the various components of the temple, what to look out for, etc etc. as a separate article to which users could link. Others might want to do the same for, say, Angkor Wat, Macchu Picchu, the British Museum, etc etc. Problem is, providing additional detail will almost certainly blow out the desirable size of an article. My basic question is: What is the scope for providing concise but detailed guides to various sites within Wikitravel? Any ideas / suggestions / discussion? Pjamescowie 13:21, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)

So, in general, I think we need to have Wikitravel:attraction listings in the page for the city they're in. But I do believe there are rare exceptions where we need to have a full article on an attraction. There's some info on this on Wikitravel:What is an article?, but we might want to be more specific. I think we already have an Angkor Wat article (although it has a more precise name, IIRC).
Anyways: yes, I totally think this is a good idea. --Evan 14:07, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Great! So should we start discussing some general guidelines / formatting for these site guides? In the spirit of independent travel that Wikitravel encourages, my idea would be to focus on those sites / attractions which are difficult to interpret without a local guide (of varying quality and price) and / or where on-site documentation is very thin on the ground.... (Egypt nearly everywhere is a prime example of this problem - I'm sure there are others!) Pjamescowie 14:25, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)

External links in listings

There's a discussion going on on Wikitravel talk:external links about changing the way we format attraction listings, restaurant listings, bar listings, accommodation listings, and the like. Although it may seem kind of trivial, making this change is going to change how our guides look a lot, as well as requiring a lot of work. So it'd be worth it to get your (yes you!) input on the idea before we go ahead with it. --Evan 15:40, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)


Someone in 80.131 (Deutsche Telekom) has been adding links to Kartenkredit with "minor edit" itp. in the summary. He's done it to three pages so far. T changes everyone's IP address each night, so we can't block him or leave a message on his talk page. How do we deal with this? Should we have a "vandalism in progress" page? -phma 10:38, 9 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Maybe post here so that others can have an eye on it... But every vandal will go away eventually. -- Nils 04:27, 17 Jul 2004 (EDT)
FYI: In the same vein, has repeatedly added Iran (a stub) to Main page, and has just now removed Israel from the Middle East country list. IP is in Iran, so this is obviously some messed up fundamentalist. -- Nils 04:37, 18 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, or has been asked before, but I noticed that another collaborative travel project,, is published under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 1.0 license. Does this means that all their content can be posted here and vice versa? I would be grateful if someone could clear that up. Ta. Professorbiscuit 11:50, 28 Jul 2004 (EDT)

All our content could be posted there. I'm dubious about World66's content, since it was originally a GFDL site, and they switched over to by-sa without getting the consent of their contributors. If we copy any of their content here, and somebody reuses it, and one of their contributors who submitted under the GFDL sues our downstream reuser... well, I feel that we've done that reuser a disservice.
It's also worth noting that most of the images at World66 are downloaded from other Web sites through Google images, and aren't submitted by contributors.
So, in general, I'd be really wary about copying info from World 66 here. --Evan 14:38, 28 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Disambig pages vs links

Can I ask for the rationale behind using disambiguation pages instead of links? Often, eg. St. Petersburg, one of the places being disambiguated is much better known and it feels stupid to have to write St.Petersburg every time I want to link to the bigger of the two. I'd prefer the Wikipedia style, where the main page is usually the Big One and has a link up top with "This page is about X, see also Y for the Z in Q". Jpatokal 04:18, 29 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Which city has more English-speaking tourists, the one in Russia or the beach resort in Florida? ;-) Personally, since this is a travel guide I prefer the disambig to make sure we're displaying the page the user wants when they do a search (cause they might skip the see also clause at the top and skim down). Conversely, in an Encylopedia, Moscow (Idaho) is pretty much never what the user wants when they ask for Moscow. (I'm gonna regret this when the other five Fremonts in the US are added) -- Colin 04:43, 29 Jul 2004 (EDT)
The mos does allow the first approach "if one place is so famous that the disambiguation is a hindrance rather than a help", giving examples of Paris and Los Angeles. I think you could probably make a case for St Petersburg under that exemption; although having three different names in the last 100 years certainly doesn't help that cities case.
But that is almost incidental. The vast majority of ambiguously named places are not like that; there is genuine cause for confusion. I live in Reading in England, but I know there is a Reading in Pennsylvania although I know no more than that about it. I guess most of the english speaking world have only vaguely heard of either, if at all. Which is the more important in a Wikitravel context?. I think the only sensible answer is 'it depends on the readers context', in which case disambiguation is the right approach. -- Chris j wood 07:38, 29 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Other Ways of Seeing Travel Hierarchy

I think it would be nice to add a hierarchy for other ways of seeing travel. See my complete proposal at Wikitravel talk:Other ways of seeing travel. I would like some comments on it before I start working on it. I also wonder if somebody can come up with a better name for the top level of the hierarchy than my Travel Planning name. -- Webgeer 01:37, Jul 30, 2004 (EDT)

So, first off, I'd say that the whole point of Wikitravel:other ways of seeing travel is that whatever system of organization we have, there will be stuff outside that system that we should include in our guide. It's the Godel Theorem of Wikitravel.
Second, I don't think that travel topics and itineraries fit into a hierarchical system the way that the Wikitravel:geographical hierarchy works.
Lastly, I think we need to be really careful about travel topics, as they're a slippery slope. We could easily become a "travel encyclopedia" if we over-concentrate on travel topics. But we're making a travel guide -- a practical reference work. --Evan 09:37, 30 Jul 2004 (EDT)
I don't intead that this system would actually contain much real information. It would just be new pointers to the articles in the geographical hierarcy. For example if I wanted to find out where is a good place to go scuba diving, rather than doing a search and sorting through all of the articles that mention scuba diving, I would instead go to the Travel Plannning hierarchy and go down Travel Planning->Participatory sports->Scuba Diving and this would give a list of the best scuba diving destinations in the world. I do not intend that it contain any information about Scuba Diving (except as required to deving catagories). I never intended to include Travel Topics in this hierarcy at all. That already has a hieararcy.
Another way to look at this is as a well edited index. Travel guides often have these types of things at the back of the travel guide.
I like the idea as I think it would make the guides a lot more browsable. -- Webgeer 12:18, Jul 30, 2004 (EDT)
I'm like this idea in the long run once we have a big enough set of stuff in the travel articles. But I'd rather postpone it (and other slopes) until we have a more complete guide. -- Colin 13:22, 30 Jul 2004 (EDT)

3000 articles !

The 3 languages projects together have more than 3000 articles ! Yann 05:47, 30 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Highest Google Position?

I haven't done any research on this myself - yet - but just wanted to pose the question: What's the highest position a Wikitravel article has yet achieved on Google? Anyone got any insights into this one? Would be an interesting indicator for our progress..... Pjamescowie 13:39, 31 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Search for "Geneva travel guide". -- Mark 16:42, 31 Jul 2004 (EDT)

I know Wikipedia is slightly obsessed with Alexa ratings - this is Wikitravels if people are interested: Caroline 16:26, 31 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Gap Year information

A lot of travellers are in the position of taking a "gap year" after studies, for a career break, for a life change, etc...... An increasing focus in these gap years seems to be the chance to do volunteer work, try new experiences, visit exotic locales, etc - witness the recent Guardian writeups in their Travel section. Would it be worthwhile, do you think, for Wikitravel to address this phenomenon with a series of articles offering advice, ideas, suggestions, alternatives, etc? Pjamescowie 07:19, 1 Aug 2004 (EDT)

I think Gap year travel would make an excellent travel topic. I'm not sure it's a big enough topic to have multiple articles about, though. --Evan 18:18, 19 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Wikitravel Expedition? Travellers' Tips? - Health

Another thought: I've just been adding some Egypt-specific info regarding Stay Healthy on the Egypt page.... Was suddenly struck by the thought that a lot of general information could be unnecessarily duplicated in many parts of Wikitravel in the future..... Without taking away the need for country / location-specific health information, would people consider it a worthwhile idea providing general advice and relevant links for a number of common travel ailments - things like dehydration, heat / sunstroke, some of the more obvious diseases, etc......? This could be set up as a Wikitravel Expedition, I think... and we could link to the resulting information from within various other articles. It'd be great if we could get some contributors with a medical background to pitch in..... Although I think we might still have to include some warnings and caveats..... What do others think? Pjamescowie 08:17, 1 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Uniting Wikitravel with Wikipedia, Wikiquote, Wikisource, Wiktionary and Wikibooks?

I think that Wikitravel should be eaten by the Wikimedia foundation, which owns the Wiki projects mentioned above. (I couldn't find an earlier discussion about this.) It seems to me that all Wiki projects, and especially Wikitravel, should benefit from such a strong alliance. Personally I would have heard a lot earlier about Wikitravel if it was already listed under the other Wiki projects. I'm not sure if this is possible by the differences between by-sa and GFDL though. What do you guys think? Georg Muntingh, 2 Aug 2004

No - disagree strongly. One of the reason I came here was because it wasn't run by the Wikimedia foundation and hence was more international etc. Also cc-by-sa is superior to the GFDL and the wikimedia foundation loves fair use images which are not useable outside the US. Apologies if this sounds like a rant. Caroline 14:42, 2 Aug 2004 (EDT)
I dunno. Being "eaten" by Wikimedia doesn't really sound like the most positive experience.
I also think that it's good to have lots of different kinds of wikis hosted by lots of different organizations. A monoculture wouldn't necessarily be the healthiest wiki ecosystem. The SwitchWiki shows some tens of thousands of wikis on the Internet right now. I don't think Wikimedia should, or wants to, host and manage all those projects. --Evan 11:46, 3 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Okay, I see your points. Georg Muntingh 09:11, 4 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Actually, the number of wikis on SwitchWiki is on the order of thousands, not tens of thousands. It's right there on the page I linked to! Sloppy research on my part, but I think the point is still valid. --Evan 18:16, 19 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Italian-language Wikitravel

Based on some requests sent in private email, I've got started an Italian Wikitravel Expedition. Native speakers of Italian should check it out. --Evan 18:06, 9 Aug 2004 (EDT)

How long does an article need to be to lose 'stub' status?

Self-explanatory, really. I was thinking this because articles that are really long (such as Prague, Bratislava and Boston) have stub messages on them. Stub messages, surely, would be more suitable if the article was just 'Whatever is a city in Wherever.'

Do stub messages stay until all the template headings have been filled? It seems a bit odd to have a stub message on a 30k+ article. Would a message along the lines of 'This article is in need of development' be more suitable? Professorbiscuit 13:19, 11 Aug 2004 (EDT)

It's not a matter of length, but completeness. A destination guide is a stub until it would make a useful travel guide. Until then, it's incomplete, i.e., a stub. A useful travel guide should at least have Get in, Get around, Eat, and Sleep stuff available. See Wikitravel:Stub articles for more info. If you disagree with the definition of stubs that's there, which we've used for more than a year, please comment on Wikitravel talk:Stub articles. --Evan 16:43, 11 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Polish Wikitravel?

How did Polish Wikitravel come to exist? There's no expedition for it. Or maybe i've missed out something. 09:44, 12 Aug 2004 (EDT) (Ronline) sorry for not logging in ;-)

I get 404 trying it. What URL did you see a Polish Wikitravel at? -phma 16:07, 14 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Somebody started a page at, based on the interlanguage links for fr: and ro:. It now redirects to the Polish Wikitravel Expedition, and we'll see how that goes. --Evan 17:24, 14 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Sharing images between different language editions of Wikitravel

I was looking to link the photo from the french language article on St Petersburg to the equivalent english language article, but this does not work. It appears that the different language versions have completely seperate sets of images.

One solution is obviously to download the image from the french version, and upload it to the english version. But this is both cumbersome, and it destroys the audit trail. Indeed a strict interpretation of the Wikitravel:Image policy suggests that I need the permission of the original photographer to do this.

Given that photographs are not generally linguistically specific, but other kinds of images like maps are, it would seem much better to have some sort of link mechanism that maintains only one copy of the image on the server. Any thoughts on the best way of going about this. -- Chris j wood 09:49, 13 Aug 2004 (EDT)

David's planning a trip

I'm planning a trip, and naturally the first place I turn to is Wikitravel.

Feel free to ask me to take photos of specific locations in Oklahoma or near my upcoming Europe trip.

--DavidCary 01:49, 21 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Ban on casino-online?

Is it time to make Wikitravel history and edit ban our first idiot, the esteemed 217.132.212.* behind gems such as Mérida, Yucatán? Unfortunately he's on a dynamic IP so we'll have to block the entire subnet... Jpatokal 01:18, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)

(Heh. While I was typing about the same subject...)

Okay, so we're being repeatedly spammed by some idiot who doesn't even format his own spam-links correctly. But Wait! It gets worse! He clearly has a saved list of pages to modify that he goes through in sequence; and it is a human because there are such significant variations in lag between modifications.

I've sent off a complaint to Hopefully they will deal with this so we don't need to block netvision's dialup range. -- Colin 01:25, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)

We are nowhere close to needing to block him. So far we've been able to deal with this non-sense in just a couple of minutes collectively. Blocking is there for when it gets so out of hand that we can't handle it the normal way, like if he starts placing links faster than we can remove them. Until that happens I won't block, especially not a dynamic range.
I hope that the other admins show similar restraint.
Should it get truly out of hand -- as in he's adding bogus casino links faster than you can delete them -- then any admin who is around at the time should block right then and there without discussing it. Blocking is for emergencies in which there is no time for discussion. As soon as the person or bot or whatever stops the block should be removed.
Meanwhile, yes we should definitely take the step of complaining to his ISP, and anything else we can think of without blocking the whole range of IPs. -- Mark 04:49, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)
FYI, he vandalises also fr:Washington (D.C.) every time. Should we send several complains? Yann 07:55, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Absolutely in no way should we ban this IP address. It's very easy to clean this stuff up. --Evan 15:25, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)
If complaining to netvision doesn't work, and he keeps doing this every two or three days, a temp ban may be useful in order to get him to take us off his to-do list. -- Colin 16:21, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Upgrade to Mediawiki 1.3 ?


Should WT be upgraded to Mediawiki 1.3 now that a stable version is released?

  • The new Monobook design is nice;
  • We could use the Categories;
  • The Templates ({{template}}) still do not work.

BTW, this page is over 46 KB. Yann 09:05, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)

I'll see what I can do to fix the templates problem on French Wikitravel. I personally hate the Monobook design, but it'd be good to have an option. And the PHPTal stuff would be good for making a Wikitravel skin.
I see no reason to use categories; in fact, I think they're a really crappy hack. We need much better metadata input than that; I'm working on adding Turtle support so we can add richer metadata. Anyways, I'll probably disable categories until we've got a good plan for them.
1.3 does have the option to add a real name to your user account, and to get attribution on the pages ("This page created by X, Y, and Z"). I'll probably enable those, since it makes it a lot easier for redistributors to comply with our copyleft.
Anyways, I'll probably do a 1.3 upgrade in about 2 weeks (I'll be away next week). I'd like to get the three new language versions going at about the same time, so I only have to do 6 installs instead of 9. I'll post well ahead of time when I'm ready to go. --Evan 15:31, 24 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Personally, I'd like categories because they'd make it so much easier to navigate around geographical areas, instead of relying on region pages being up to date (which they won't be). Jpatokal 07:09, 30 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Thumbnail formatting

Given all the recent hang-wringing over link URLs, I think I need to say that the current (default) thumbnail formatting is butt-ugly. A modest proposal:

  • background from dark gray to white (same color as page itself or just a tiny bit darker)
  • a little more empty space within the thumb border
  • more empty space around thumbs on the left and bottom sides

See also Wikipedia's new thumb appearance, which doesn't look bad at all. (Although I'm fine with the magnifying glass as is.) Jpatokal 07:09, 30 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Vandalism on the Romanian Wikitravel

I think there was some vandalism on the Main Page of the Romanian Wikitravel. I reverted to an earlier version, but my Romanian being quite inexistant, could somebody else check that it's allright. Yann 12:30, 1 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Looks more like someone changed the destination of the month but forgot to change the picture. The same IP has been editing the Romanian Wikitravel for months, and has several pages on top. -phma 22:06, 2 Sep 2004 (EDT)
It was Ronline. Yes the fact that he was not loggued and that he changed the text and not the picture seems curious to me. Yann 12:25, 3 Sep 2004 (EDT)
Ronline often edits without logging in. Maybe he gets tired of being autologged out. -- Colin 13:16, 3 Sep 2004 (EDT)
Well can someone translate the article? There's a lot more about Sibiu in English than Romanian. -phma 21:38, 3 Sep 2004 (EDT)
I was the one who wrote the article on Sibiu in English, so I will translate it in Romanian too on the RO Wikitravel. I have already started doing this. Sorry for not logging in - it seems too cumbersome a process sometimes. The reason why I changed the text and not the picture is because, frankly, I couldn't find a picture of the city and the picture of Prague looked so nice (and, in many ways, similar to how Sibiu is like). In any case, I have found a decent picture from Wikipedia to put, even though I don't particularly like it. Cheers, Ronline 22:28, 4 Sep 2004 (EDT)



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