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:: That must be the problem. I'll look into it and see if I can come up with a fix. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 11:42, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)
 
:: That must be the problem. I'll look into it and see if I can come up with a fix. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 11:42, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)
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==Hitchhiking==
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I think we should add a category for city exits and places were you can get out of a city easily under "get out" for citys (at least large citys). Also we should add hitchhiking to the "get around" in contry templates. Any other opinions on that?

Revision as of 14:28, 13 October 2005

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Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see a conversation that could or should be moved to a talk page, please do so, and note the move here.

Stuff that's been moved:

Also, see the Travellers' pub archives for older archived discussions.

Please sweep the pub

So, the TP has been getting kinda crowded and messy. I'd really appreciate if we could all make an effort to clean up a bit by moving discussions to places more appropriate or deleting discussions that have reached their conclusions. It's a tedious job, but like most, it's easier if we do it together. --Evan 16:44, 20 Apr 2004 (EDT)

I was about to nuke the New User Deluge section when I realized there's no logbook entry. Do you want want before it gets deleted?
Also, New User Deluge seemed more like conversation about events than a discussion about policy. Am I right to think that policy questions should be preserved, but discussions and chatter can be deleted outright once they are done? -- Colin 02:22, 5 May 2004 (EDT)
Alright, I've done a bit of sweeping here. I'm not exactly sure if I'm doing it right, so I'll stop for now and wait to see if anyone has any comments. I just blew away some discussion that haven't had contributions in over a month. For some of them, where it seemed the discussion may be important in the future, I archived them. There are others which still seem relevant or as if they could fit into the FAQ, but I'm not sure where to put them, so I've left them in the pub (even though they're quite old). --Dawnview 17:57, 6 Jun 2004 (EDT)

I've done a whole lot more sweeping today, I think it's best to just plunge forward, especially if you're moving rather than deleting discussions. Hypatia 18:47, 16 Dec 2004 (EST)

Categories

According to me, there should be some new categories. Like a "theme park" category and a "capitals" category.

Images

There seems to be a chronic lack of images in wikitravel (at least compared to other printed travel guides I've seen) - I understand that only images licenced with cc-by-sa-1.0 can be used? What are the barriers to the 2.0 being used for images? -- Joolz 10:51, 2 May 2005 (EDT)

Well, Wikitravel:Image policy actually recommends "Minimal use of images ... no more images than are necessary to get across a point or impression should be used", although this has so far been applied with a good deal of common sense (generally only duplicate or utterly pointless images get trimmed). But while anybody can take travel snaps, it's not that easy to get the "guidebook quality" shots that we want here.
And license incompatibility is a biggie, not so much with cc-by-sa v2.0 (not too many of those floating around) but with GFDL, which means that eg. most of Wikimedia Commons is off-limits. Most Wikipedia photographers will, however, gladly dual license on request. Jpatokal 11:03, 2 May 2005 (EDT)
I think many destinations have excellent images. Many especially minor distinations do not have images. One reason is probably that WikiTravel is young and there is a backlog--Some of the contributed material come from memory a couple of years back, but unfortunately we cannot contribute images from memory. We might have old pictures, but they were not made for WikiTravel and are usually polluted by people. In a couple of months a lot of travellers will for the first time go on vacation with a camera and make photos exclusively for WikiTravel. Expect a lot of Italian destination images from me. --elgaard 13:54, 2 May 2005 (EDT)
Does that mean if there are suitable images that are appropriate to use which are licenced with cc-by-sa-2.0, you can use them? (If so, how do you link an image from the commons here?) -- 80.229.143.117 03:39, 3 May 2005 (EDT)
No, unfortunately v2.0 images cannot be used in v1.0. See [1]. 202.176.111.155 07:13, 3 May 2005 (EDT)
Yes, that is unfortunate. I can understand that CC made it so to motivate people to switch to CC2.0 but it is a problem for us especially because we cannot move CC1.0 to CC2.0 without permission of every contributer. If we ask for permission to use a CC2.0 on WikiTravel I think we will get it in most cases. You should not link, download and upload them to WikiTravel. If you use konqueror you can do it in one step, just use the image URL in the upload form. -- elgaard 08:38, 3 May 2005 (EDT)
Why not allow any free license for images, just like Wikipedia does?
Other question that pops up: why is there no effort to start asking permission to move to CC2.0? I think we don't have to ask anonymous contributors, unless we're really anal about it. 196.200.85.103 09:21, 3 May 2005 (EDT)
Because you can't distribute a Wikitravel article with a GFDL picture without handing out copies of the GFDL, or use a fair use image commercially. So that's why only public domain and CC1.0 images are allowed. 203.147.0.44 09:37, 3 May 2005 (EDT)

Active Contributors

Just wondering whether there is some way for the community to be able to get an automatic update (at any time) on the number and names of actual "active contributors" to Wikitravel - maybe define this as anyone who has made at least one edit in the last month....? This would be an interesting and possibly useful guage of interest and activity overall. Ideas? Pjamescowie 02:18, 10 May 2005 (EDT)

You'd have to do some fairly hardcore data crunching Wikipedia style for this — they generate their stats from an SQL dump each week. Jpatokal 13:12, 11 May 2005 (EDT)

Could we use their model to do the same for WikiTravel? Any SQL-savvy volunteers out there? Pjamescowie 05:38, 13 May 2005 (EDT)

I don't think we'd have to -- our database server isn't as crunched as Wikipedia's. Can you explain to me what the point of this is? I'm not sure I like the idea, since it seems to be aimed towards discriminating between "active" and "non-active" contributors. But it's not a hard query and I can drop it in as a Special page if it's really needed. --Evan 08:26, 13 May 2005 (EDT)
Purely as a guage to see how we're developing as a community.... I don't see how any kind of discrimination could creep in, really... People are free to contribute as much or as little, as often or as infrequently as they wish.... So what? If you don't like publicising names, then don't! Maybe just provide the numbers.... Don't see what harm it would / could do - and it'd be interesting to see how our contributions are growing month by month....Pjamescowie 09:42, 15 May 2005 (EDT)

Using images from commons.wikimedia.org

Can we refer to images held at commons.wikimedia.org (like you can from wikipedia)? This would save manually transferring all the images of cities from commons.wikimedia.org to wikitravel.org which is very tedious!!! Refering to wikimedia doesn't seem to work in wikitravel at the moment, although it does work in all languages of wikipedia.

I have copied across a few images already:

Image:StJohnsCambNewCourt.jpg, Image:Cam_colls_from_johns.jpg and Image:Hoan_kiem_hanoi_1999.jpg

I've also noticed that I'm not the only person who has been forced to manually transfer images across from wikimedia:

http://wikitravel.org/en/Image:Florence_italy_duomo.jpg

Rnt20 10:03, 19 May 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel is not a Wikimedia project and it does not use the GFDL license, so Commons images are generally not acceptable here (unless PD or CC-by-SA 1.0) and the Wikimedia foundation is unlikely to look kindly on deep links from us. Fortunately the images you uploaded are PD, so they're OK. Jpatokal 10:31, 19 May 2005 (EDT)
Transferring the images is not that bad. Especially if you use konqueror where you can upload an URL from a third site, ie, you do not have to download the images to your own computer first. -- elgaard 12:59, 19 May 2005 (EDT)

I still worry about that WikiTravel isn't a Wikimedia project. Wouldn't it be fine to get in the family? I'm not up to date with copyright issues but I'm looking forward to integration. As long as this doesn't happen: Shouldn't we start our own commons? It's stupid to waste storage by uploading the same image to different languages. de:Benutzer:Thkoch2001

If storage is a problem, then note that commons.wikipedia.org does not have 100KB limit, in fact they want images in full/origial size. --elgaard 17:07, 3 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Offline version

Is there a friendly way to get an offline version of either all or a part of Wikitravel?

Specificly: I'm in Europe for 3 months with intermitant internet access, and a Eurail pass. I'd absolutely _love_ to be able to browse the Europe pages for whatever country I happen to find myself in at the moment. If there were an easy way to do this for offline viewing I could do it without paying EU$7.00/hour (for an internet cafe) to do so.

More in general: I think that if it were possible to download a tarballed HTML version of Wikitravel (or maybe a contenent or country at a time), travelers could put it on their Palm pilots or laptops and have an excelent guide book to take with them.

See the Wikitravel:Offline Reader Expedition. Right now, we don't have an HTML dump, but it's a priority. I usually just print out the guides I need for where I'm going. --Evan 15:31, 20 May 2005 (EDT)
Last time I did that was last month. When I arrived downtown Toronto, I realized Toronto had been split into districts and I only had only printed out the city page. In July I'll make my way from Rome to Naples, I might go to most destinations south of Rome. It is just to much to do by hand. It should not be to difficult to write a script that follows Regions, Cities, District, and Other Destinations links using mvs, but parsewiki is not quite right.
I would love a cron job that updates a PDF for each country.
If I brought a laptop, I would prefer a dump of Wikitravel, so I could run it locally. --elgaard 18:27, 20 May 2005 (EDT)
I'd probably print where I was going if only I knew. :-) On our trip last week which was intended for Barcelona, we ended up in Millan, Genoa, and some small Italian towns. Untill we got to the Zurich train station and found that the Barcelona train was booked, we didn't know we were headed to Italy.
It's quite fun to have the flexibility to change destinations on the spur of the moment, but it makes being informed (tourist-wise) about where you end up fairly dificult.
-- Michael

Image map

Following up from a point in the discussion about the Caribbean Islands (Talk:Main Page#Caribbean islands) I started experimenting with an image map of the world just to see if it was feasible, but after trying things out in User:Wrh2/Sandbox and searching on Google I can't find a way to actually get the <map> and <area> tags working with Wikimarkup. Does Wikimarkup have any way of allowing a clickable image map? -- Wrh2 02:06, 16 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Templates for User Pages

I just wondered what people would think of creating templates along the lines of the userpage and bable templates as seen in Wikipedia. --Colin Angus Mackay 14:42, 23 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Sounds like a really good application of Mediawiki templates. I think there are a lot of "slots" that would be useful to put into a template: where the user lives now, where they have lived, what places they've visited, where they want to visit, what languages they speak and at what level (I really like the Babel templates). Let's start up Template:Userpage and Template:Babel (or maybe combine them?). --Evan 12:10, 27 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Wiki software upgrade

Hi there, I have seen in the wikipedia that they are busy with a software upgrade from 1.4 to 1.5. Will this have any effect on wikitravel? Felix 27/06/2005, 16:31 (GMT)

Barring any problems we'll probably move up to 1.5 sometime after it's released. Or are you asking whether the 1.5 upgrade at Wikipedia is going to affect us? I'm not sure about that, but I doubt it. --Evan 12:00, 27 Jun 2005 (EDT)
I actually meant, if we are also going to upgrade! Felix

The work of

Hi there, everytime I open an article I notice the message last modified by..., based on work by... and so on. In my opinion this is a very nice idea to give credit to those users who have contributed. But what makes me a bit angry is that after I have written the whole thing and someone just changed a comma and I edit it again, my edit is based on the work of xxx, but it doesn't say anything about the big amount of work I have done before... Maybe it is more fair to add the names of all contributers, including the last (if it's his/her second/third... entry). Felix 14:29, 29 June 2005 (GMT)

Contributions are listed by time (last edit first). It would be quite a challenge, or at least involve a lot more overhead, to start tracking the quantity (much less the quality) of those edits... and even if implemented, would a spammer then get to the top of the list because it adds 50K of "n00d young sheep!!!1111!!!1" to every page? Jpatokal 21:18, 28 Jun 2005 (EDT)
Felix: do you want it to say, "Last modified by Felix, based on the work of Someone Else and Felix"? Would that communicate that you'd done the lion's share of the work? I don't think so. And if you'd made 6 edits, I think it would look kind of funny to say "Last modified by Felix, based on the work of Felix, Felix, Felix, Felix, and Felix".
The credits block aggregates by your last edit, so the most recent edits go up front. The most recent editor is the Licensor per the Wikitravel:copyleft (they made the most recent derivative work), so they are highlighted. --Evan 08:41, 6 Jul 2005 (EDT)
Vanity. Clutter. Get rid of it. At the bottom of this page right this minute I see "Wikitravel user(s) ...Evan, ... Evan, ... Evan, Evan, ... Evan ...". Yes, that's right, 2 of the Evans are beside each other. (Nothing personal at all, Evan, just that Evan was the most repeated.) Just my opinion. Nurg 00:33, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Potential Map ideas...

If you aren't aware already, google has had a map service for a while now (maps.google.com). And it's not half bad (only problem is that it only has US and UK... so far). Even more exciting is that they've released a javascript api: http://www.google.com/apis/maps/. I've already seen a few hacks and they look very promising. Maybe someone with more technical experience could look into it. It looks like something to potentially add to the mapmaking expedition. --Comrade009 14:23, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

(Rude outsiders interjection) - Just thought you might like to know that we've just quietly launched Placeopedia.com, a site for easily connecting Wikipedia articles to places. Tourism and local history are the two main aims of this, and I just wanted to let you Travellers know that it's out there.
But we cannot use Google maps on Wikitral. Planiglobe seems more promising. They are CC-by-sa-2.5. So close :-( --elgaard 15:27, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)
Are there any legal experts on this? Seems to me that having to worry about license versions is rather counter to the goal of the cc licenses. Does "share alike" imply shared using the exact same licence, or using a license which protects the same rights. Not being a legal expert, but having had it drilled into me that legal systems which derive from britain (including the US) all use the principle of what the "reasonable man" would do, and at least to me, it seems perfectly reasonable to interchange license versions which protect the exact same rights.
This seems to put all sorts of things that people may be more than happy to share with us out of our reach unless we can reach the copyright holder directly. Case in point that I've recently become aware of is if we want to borrow some photos from flickr. People there have the option of choosing one (or none) of several cc licenses for their works, but the cc-by-sa is 2.0, and to do anything different would require adding something to the comments of every photo, instead of just setting a default rule. --Neil 07:08, 6 Jul 2005 (EDT)
Yes, there are lots of things we can't include unless we get copyright holder permission. Fortunately, there are hundreds of thousands of travelers out there with ideas, photos, and energy to make this project work. We don't need to leech from those who don't want to share with us.
As for the licenses: I'd like to get an expedition in motion to upgrade our license version. However, I think the 3.0 licenses will be more worth the trouble. Maybe we should start a Wikitravel:License Upgrade Expedition? --Evan 08:35, 6 Jul 2005 (EDT)
We don't need to leech from those who don't want to share with us. My point wasn't about people who don't want to share with us, just about people who want their material to be shared (hence using a by-sa license), but who didn't initially and specifically put their material on wikitravel. Upgrading the license seems like a good idea if it's feasible, but doesn't that require contacting every single contibuter?...at that, do they have to specifically agree, or simply not reply back to say no? And how do anonymous contributions fit into that?--Neil 15:10, 6 Jul 2005 (EDT)
I agree that it's going to be hard to upgrade the license. The big problem is that the 1.0 CC license suite didn't have an "or any later license" clause; 2.0 and later do. So if we get bumped up to 2.5 or 3.0 or whatever, we can "automatically" upgrade later. As for how it has to be done: I've got some ideas, but, yes, we do need the consent of contributors. As for including stuff under other licenses: I think that's gonna be hard. Possible, but hard. --Evan 16:19, 6 Jul 2005 (EDT)
It would be great to go to CC 2.X. Please put your ideas on Wikitravel:License Upgrade Expedition --elgaard 19:43, 6 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Edirectory.com

There is a lot of material from edirectory.com http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=210.214.89.130 As there is also a lot of references to edirectory (against ext guide policy) the anon user just might be the copyrigtholder, but I doubt it. Also he renames Learn to Money, etc. --elgaard 10:19, 4 Jul 2005 (EDT)

That's a clear-cut case for reversion. He has to actually say he's the copyright holder in order to do this. It could always be recovered if he says he's the copyright holder. -- Colin 13:20, 4 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel book

I made a PDF for all of Italy (I think). See more on my user page --elgaard 18:28, 15 Jul 2005 (EDT)

That's great! I think I'd like to put together some mechanisms for making print books using print-on-demand technologies so you could assemble a bunch of Wikitravel Web pages and then send them off to a service to be printed, bound, and shipped to you. --Evan 20:03, 15 Jul 2005 (EDT)
I posted som thoughts made while travelling on User:Elgaard/bookproject --Elgaard (cant find tilde on it keyboard)

Towns or Cities

I changed a lot of Town, Towns/Cities, Small Town etc sections to Cities according to our templates. Seems not everyone is happy about that. I just think we should stick to the templates or change the templates. I realized this sloppynes when I tried to parse som Italian region with my wtbook script. --elgaard 19:49, 15 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Yeah, it's a continuing sticking point, but I was glad to see that you'd done it. It's never a mistake to edit articles towards the MOS. --Evan 20:04, 15 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Men, beware those seed-pods!

Every now and then I stumble across a little nugget of localised travel wisdom on Wikitravel that makes me laugh out loud, and have a little more faith in the project's reason for being. I refer in particular to the observation made by user User:62.255.32.11 on the Fez page, under the heading "Berber Pharmacy". How many other guidebooks can offer advice that detailed! Allyak 05:44, 26 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Printable TravelGuides and Levels of Information in Contributions

On wikipedia there are now many readers on different topics. Would that be possible for wikitravel, too? I have in mind a complete pdf-guide for e.g. a country, a region, or also a big city (similar to traditional Lonely Planet guides, e.g.). For those to be compiled automatically, there should be different levels of information in the single contributions (e.g. if there would be a Travel Guide to London it should contain much more detailed info on London - possibly also from wikipedia itself - than in a guidebook on the UK). E.g. putting tags on different sections of articles on cities that would go into a (e.g.) Europe, Western Europe, France, Burgundy or City-Guide (e.g.). Did I make clear what I mean? E.g. in a Europe Guidebook you would probably only include like 5 pubs in Munich, but in a Guidebook on Bavaria, you would include 20. So it would be nice to be able to (internally) mark this on the respective Munich page, in order to be able to automatically create Travel Guides. Are there any plans regarding such issues.

I've been thinking about this too, and I think Wikitravel will need to adopt the Mediawiki Category system at some point to make this possible. Further discussion here please: [2] Jpatokal 09:35, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Events

I was working on an entry that involved annual events for a particular city. I wasn't sure if they should go under See or Do since events often fall under both.

I would like to propose adding Event section to the templates, especially for cities.

Comments? Epolk 17:22, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Where you can stick it decrees that festivals go under Do. I'm not too sure why, but it's the de facto standard already... I would not be averse to adding a "Events" subsection under Do though, and you can do this on an ad hoc basis already. Jpatokal 09:33, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I recently added a bunch of events to the Basel page (subheading under Do), and I was thinking that it would be nice if there were some guidelines on how to list events, in terms of formatting. Dates, locations, a descriptive blurb, etc. --kenliu

Airport Codes?

I was just editing the Miami Beach entry and noted that neither local international airport was linked from its airport code, nor had any article at all. I would like to suggest that stub articles be added for at least all major international airports, as these definitely constitute places of interest to travelers.

In our guidelines for deciding what is an article, airports don't usually get articles because they are not destinations, and should be folded into the content of their containing city or region. Some airports are complex enough that they do get articles though. If you want to write an article about a particular airport, you might want to raise the issue at Wikitravel talk:What is an article? and generate a discussion about whether the airport really should have its own article. -- Colin 20:19, 23 Aug 2005 (EDT)

It would be nice to have a stub page on each airport, if only for the purpose looking at reverse links. I guess a search might accomplish the same purpose, though.

Show changes

Could we add "Show changes" button to the edit page, like wikipedia has? I find it helpful if I make several changes in one edit and don't remember them all, to make sure I haven't made typos and such before I commit them and check the "show changes" equivalent in history (Compare selected versions). TransUtopian 03:09, 2 Sep 2005 (EDT)

That's a feature of the MediaWiki 1.5 software, which is currently in beta (see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Download#Testing). When a stable version is released Wikitravel will most likely update, and the show changes button will then be available. -- Wrh2 03:19, 2 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Thanks, Wrh2! And nice job on the sweeping. -- TransUtopian 09:07, 2 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Icons for kid-friendly attractions

I really like how Fodor's has the little duck symbol next to kid-friendly attractions. Could we do the same thing? We could indicate recommendations (as mentioned above in "lists versus recommendations"), photo-op points, and maybe a few other things. This could be easily done by linking to a standard image, or perhaps creating a WM macro.

We need suggested itineraries

Thought: Wikitravel should be a useful guide for someone who wants to look up a country, and answer the question, "What should I DO AND SEE if I travel there?" Right now, the information on countries and regions/states is somewhat dry doesn't live up to this. Moreover, the templates don't have a section where you would write about this.

My suggestion: We should add to the templates for countries and regions a section "Suggested Itineraries". As usual, anyone could add to this section. So you might see a number of links for different users' suggestions, like:

- <link>2 week itinerary</link>: Travel from Cochin to Trivandrum, taking in hill stations and backwaters along the way. - <link>3 days on Mt Rainier</link>: A 3-day, 2-night hike on Mt Rainier that takes you away from the crowds. - etc.

I'm sure there are more things to consider in implementing this... for example, how do we add such a section to all the existing countries and states? It won't get added by luck. Thoughts? -- Jeremy_S

Do you mean like this? --Ravikiran 14:10, 11 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Exactly! That's beautiful. My concern is that I don't think such a thing will automatically spread unless there's some encouragement. E.g. Including "Itineraries" in the templates, and actually updating many of the existing travel pages to have such a section (even if it's blank). Jeremy_S 15 Sept 2005
I agree! This is a great idea. This kind of info is hugely helpful and remarkably scarce. 15 Sep 2005
There is a section for See and Do in region articles, which might also help. --Evan 09:28, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)
If anything is to come out of this discussion, it will involve extensions of article templates (among other things). So I've copied this discussion into Wikitravel talk: Article templates#We need suggested itineraries. Folks can suggest changes there, and if there is a consensus, we can go ahead and make the changes -- Ravikiran 09:47, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Google Blog Search

So cool. Google Blog Search. Type in 'wikitravel' and see what the bloggers say. Nzpcmad 17:31, 14 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Another useful feature: When you do the search, click on "Sorted by date" at the top on the RHS and then scroll down to the bottom. You'll see "Subscribe: Atom (10 results - 100 results) RSS (10 results - 100 results)". Pick the one you want and paste the link as a subscription into your favourite RSS reader. That way anytime someone blogs about Wikitravel you'll get a notification. --Nzpcmad 15:22, 25 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Dedicated pages for hotels and restaurants

Where can I put a REALLY detailed information about a hotel? I have spent some effort in collecting travellers-oriented info on the hotels I recently stayed at. Each hotel worth at least a separate page with multiple sections each -- how is it better to contribute it? I'm sure the information would be helpful for those planning their trip careful enough to know details normally not available through hotel web sites or even reviews. And I would be happy to help Wikitravel.org to become a place to find such kind details next to overviews.

Same question for restaurants: I visited a dozen and ready to share some feedback, both overall and on specific dishes, recommended and not. I can publish a content for one of them if the idea doesn't look counter to Wikitravel goals at this stage.

-- DenisYurkin 19:01, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel isn't really designed for incredibly detailed reviews, so you should try to compress the data into a single paragraph.
That said, one of the things I'd like to see in the future is a link to a detailed review page for each attraction, where travellers can contribute their personal opinions. Jpatokal 21:13, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Agreed here; interested in the personal opinions idea, but it's going to be a delicate operation. I think that about a paragraph per hotel is the most we can accommodate reasonably. At the outside, for "destination" hotels -- ones that are a site in and of themselves -- I could see doing a sub-section format like we do for attraction listings. But I think that'd be a rare exception. --Evan 11:08, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Could you detail what do you mean by a delicate operation? I'm ready to write a single paragraph about each, but I wouldn't want to throw away my experiences that I believe valuable for other travellers, but too detailed to find space in that paragraph. Is it ok that I start with a single paragraph, then try to create a separate page for hotel or two? What are the chances the content will survive, and efforts will be not wasted? --DenisYurkin 14:34, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
A paragraph is plenty. The last person to re-write it can pretty much do whatever they want to it. If there's dissagreement then it can be taken to the talk page. There's no reason to have a separate page per listing. That will just make our guides seem really empty and useless, basically turning us into another World 66 or worse. -- Mark 15:15, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
> one of the things I'd like to see in the future is a link to a detailed review page for each attraction, where travellers can contribute their personal opinions.
Why wait for a future? Encouraging people to just share their opinions -- even from a single visit -- would become another source of information for compressed, one-paragraph summary. After all, most travellers visit every place one or two times per trip -- why loosing their insight? I am not too experienced in Wikitravel realities, but from my personal experiences, experts in the region are rare and, normally, well-paid -- while amateurs are many, and it's them who are willing to share with others. --DenisYurkin 13:49, 26 Sep 2005 (EDT)
The reason I'm filing this in the Mysterious Future is that Mediawiki doesn't currently allow any easy way to automatically insert "See reviews"/"Add reviews" buttons that would allow inserting and maintaining one-person reviews, not the usual collective editing. Manually maintaining these would be a massive headache. Jpatokal 06:15, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I think I can easily make it reality with MediaWiki templates -- are we ready to give a try? Promise the page won't be deleted (as it happened with GreekWines) if it works? SeeReviews / AddReview can be achieved easily. The only thing I'm not sure about is signing each review automatically with user name and timestamp. However, I believe we can start with existing Wikitravellers -- and they are smart enough to sign their opinions. What do you think?
As I said in the thread above, I can propose some structure for hotel pages -- providing place both for objective, factual info, and subjective opinions. Chances effort won't be wasted? --DenisYurkin 14:34, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)


I'm really not so much into this idea I'm afraid. I think it has the potential to make our articles really lopsided and to disperse effort away from our destination guides. Meanwhile if you have additional comments for or against one of the restaurants/bars/hotels on a given destination guide it seems to me that the destination's talk page is pretty much the perfect place to put it. We do not need, nor does it serve our goals to have pages per listing. -- Mark 15:09, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Non-goals: Yellow pages

Think of a friend from out of town asking you where they should go -- you wouldn't list all 200 possibilities, but 2-5 options for a particular type, budget, or part of town.

How are the recommendations selected? What is good for one type of travellers is not for another. How are those FEW hotels selected for a country? Is it about targeting a specific audience of travellers for each budget level? Or is it edit war that drives the decision on which recommendation survives?

It's not that I'm asking for a detailed procedure on dealing with overloaded listings (I can expect the project is too young for such issues). What is important at this stage is whether Wikitravel ideologists consider helpful to have several selections of places to stay / visit within a budget range once it can help to some travellers to make a more educated choice.

Sorry if this was covered somewhere in FAQs -- it did not meet my eye.

-- DenisYurkin 19:49, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

There is no formal process as such, travellers just write up the places they like. We definitely want more than one place in each category, it's just that a single Wikitraveller usually only stays in one place per trip!
If you want to highlight your favorite things to see, do and eat in a big destination, I suggest you write up your own itinerary for it. See Tokyo for a few examples. Jpatokal 21:13, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
"Your own" is probably a bad term here, though. Just like any other article on Wikitravel, itineraries can be edited by anyone. --Evan 11:02, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Denis: absolutely. I think the numbers we look for are about 5-10 listings per listing type (Eat, Do, Sleep); after that point, we want to either break them down into sub-categories (by price (budget, mid-price, splurge), by style (museums, Mexican restaurants, B&B's, hostels)) or do a geographical breakdown (dividing a big city into districts, for example). I don't think we've had a case yet where we've removed a slew of restaurants because there were "too many". The point of that non-goal is that a travel guide doesn't have the same responsibility for comprehensive listings that a city guide (viz. http://openguides.org/) or a yellow pages Web site does. --Evan 11:02, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Then it's not the number of listings to matter, but personal experiences with a specific place. Why making restrictions you're ready to remove once the number of otherwise-suitable listings is reached? --DenisYurkin 13:42, 26 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Also: I've updated that non-goal to use a more reasonable number (5-10) rather than 2-5 from before. --Evan 11:06, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Nth largest city in the world / Nth largest city in the US

Some city articles mention their relative size and/or population. Is that tidbit of information helpful to the traveler? If so, perhaps we should have a central page somewhere that lists all the cities in Wikipedia, ranked by size. (Perhaps wikify a list like such as "Large Cities in the World" lists all cities with population of more than 100,000 in the world. There are about 3400 cities in this list. Then cities we don't yet have an article on would show up in bright red). --DavidCary 10:34, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

There are a lot of lists like this. I'm pretty copyright-paranoid, and I know that collections of data can be copyrighted. So I'd like to make sure that we either a) do our own research and glom a bunch of lists together or b) find a public-domain resource (like a US State Department list?). Otherwise, I think this is a great idea, and a good way to find holes in our coverage. --Evan 10:50, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I don't really see the relevance to travel — are there many people out there who choose their destination by its ranking in a list of population? Wikipedia already has plenty of lists, most of them hotly debated and subject to non-stop flamewars, so why reinvent a broken wheel? Jpatokal 11:13, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Actually, I'm less interested in the ranking (agreed, the petty fights on ranking are more distraction than they're worth) than I am in the lists of cities. Although population of a city and its value to travellers aren't always directly proportional, it can be a good gauge of where we need some fill-in coverage. The main source of this data, as far as I can tell, is the Demographic Yearbook 2002 from the United Nations. They've got stats on Population of capital cities and cities of 100,000 and more inhabitants, and it can be downloaded in Excel format here. I think a United Nations list of cities with 100,000 or more inhabitants might be a good place to put this info. --Evan 11:32, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Does the Copyright prohibit our use of this? -- Colin 14:52, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)


Towns or Cities, again

We are having a little discussion on South Coast (New South Wales), Talk:South Coast (New South Wales) about Towns vs Cities. Could we settle it here? --elgaard 20:26, 26 Sep 2005 (EDT)

The right place for this discussion is Wikitravel talk:Region article template#Cities. Jpatokal 06:09, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

T-shirts

I got impatient waiting for T-shirts. So I make a CafePress shop. Everyone can order a Wikitravel T-shirt. The markup is 0. I hope someone can make a better design. But I will order my first Wikitravel T-shirt in a week. I had hoped to come up with a more eye-catching back, maybe using some of the more spectacular photos on wikitravel, but that is hard and a lot of work. --elgaard 20:39, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Good start, but the logo font on the back is not the right one, and is all that explanation text really necessary? I'd go more for a bare-bones just-the-logo-ma'am model, and would be happy if a few bucks of markup went to Evan's (currently non-existent) donation box. Jpatokal 21:50, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)
FWIW: If the font is wrong then that's not really the logo. -- Mark 12:02, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I'm sorry that you got tired of waiting, but I can't say I'm happy about the situation. Elgaard, is there at least a way for you to make a note that that's not an "official" T-shirt, and that the money paid doesn't support the Wikitravel project? --Evan 08:08, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Of course. Don't be sorry, I just wanted to get a T-shirt project going. I will order a T-shirt next week because I will be going to north America so shipping will be less. I hope we can come up with a much better, official Wikitravel design. Then I will order another T-shirt and close my Cafepress test-shop or hand it over. I added some text, hope you are more happy about that. --elgaard 11:56, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Could we start a T-Shirt design contest page, like the logo contest page? --elgaard 12:04, 30 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I don't really see the point of a t-shirt competition; a logo somewhere on the shirt should suffice. Probably the thing that was bothering Evan wasn't the design so much as the possibility that people might think they were buying official Wikitravel merch'.
That said you should probably switch the logo on your shirt to the actual logo Image:Wikitravel logo bigtext.svg. This has the text converted to outlines so that you don't have to have the right font. The shape of the letters by the way is considered part of a logo. It's not the same without it. -- Mark 09:11, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Mayby I put too much text on it. But a logo is not enough. I want people to see it, get interested, start using Wikitravel and contributing. This means that there should at least be a URL. The URL can be guessed or googled but if we do not print it on the T-shirt, many will not be looking on the internet for wikitravel. I would also like somthing on the back, simple like WikiPedia. Maybe "Edit this destination"?. And should we have Official Wikitravel merch? --elgaard 10:06, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Fine, but please at least fix the logo. -- Mark 10:09, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I fixed the logo, and made a simpler design with only the logo on the front. --elgaard 19:42, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Prices

What is the best way to list prices for Hong Kong? Some parts of the articles use HK $, other just $ (HK being implied). Or should we be using HKD, HK$ or other variant? Hkpatv 03:24, 7 Oct 2005 (EDT)

6500 articles?

The statistics page says that we have more than 6500 articles. Considering that it was hovering around 5500 on saturday, it looks like a bug to me, unless someone really dedicated added over a thousand while the spam attack was going on. I would of course be happy to learn that the earlier numbers were wrong and we really do have that many articles. --Ravikiran 04:00, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)

You're right, Wikitravel:Multilingual statistics says it was still 55xx on Friday. On the Japanese version, we noticed that it now counts redirects as articles for some reason, has the same happened in English for some odd reason? Jpatokal 05:30, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)
That must be the problem. I'll look into it and see if I can come up with a fix. --Evan 11:42, 11 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Hitchhiking

I think we should add a category for city exits and places were you can get out of a city easily under "get out" for citys (at least large citys). Also we should add hitchhiking to the "get around" in contry templates. Any other opinions on that?

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