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Difference between revisions of "Wikitravel:Travellers' pub"

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The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
  
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
  
{{disclaimerbox|If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to that article.
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{{disclaimerbox|*If you have a question or suggestion about a ''particular'' article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to ''that'' article.
  
If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ Mediawiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
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*If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
  
If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.
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*If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.}}
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{{disclaimerbox|<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. dormant for a month or more) that could or should be moved to another page, please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
  
}}
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* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to that article's discussion page
 
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* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to that policy or expedition discussion page
<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. '''three months''' after the last comment in that discussion) that could or should be moved to a [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|talk page]], please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
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* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page
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* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to the policy or expedition discussion page
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* A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
 
* A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to to where the main discussion took place.
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* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to where the main discussion took place.
 
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to '''[[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]]''' and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
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{{WikitravelDoc|collaboration}}
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[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
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[[de:Wikitravel:Stammtisch]]
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[[eo:Wikitravel:Vojaĝista drinkejo]]
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[[es:Wikitravel:Bar de los viajeros]]
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[[fi:Wikitravel:Kestikievari]]
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[[fr:Wikitravel:Café des Voyageurs]]
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[[he:ויקיטיול:דלפק ייעוץ]]
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[[hi:विकिट्रैवल:यात्री भवन]]
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[[hu:Wikitravel:Kocsmafal]]
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[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
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[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
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[[ko:Wikitravel:Travellers' pub]]
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[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
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[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
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[[pt:Wikitravel:Bar dos viajantes]]
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[[ro:Wikitravel:Hanul călătorilor]]
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[[ru:Wikitravel:Пивная путешественников]]
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[[sv:Wikitravel:Resenärspuben]]
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[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
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[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
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----
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== OpenID still not working==
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Also, login on en: using OpenID from fr: and URL ''fr:user:joelf'' doesn't seem to work either. Thanks for your help. joelf
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:Take a look at [[:wts:Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS]].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 14:44, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
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::Still not working yesterday. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:57, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::We will disable. Not a needed function at this time.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:30, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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==[[Archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]==
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Started a page about [[archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]. Contributions and cross-links are welcome. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 08:58, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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: New articles: [[Christian buildings, sites and events]] and [[Muslim buildings, sites and events]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 10:39, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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:: These should link to existing articles such as [[Holy Land]] and [[UNESCO World Heritage List]]. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 20:52, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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==Right to vanish policy==
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I feel that we lack a right to vanish policy. The meatball version is to be found [http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RightToVanish here]. The Wikipedia version is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Courtesy_vanishing here]. Suggestion: import the current Wikipedia version. [[User:Riggwelter|Riggwelter]] 09:45, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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:*'''Support''' --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 21:16, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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== Many more administrators needed? ==
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It's been more than a year since the last Administrator, [[User:Ikan Kekek]], was nominated.
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If you believe a Wikitraveller — including yourself — should have [[Wikitravel:Administrators|administrative status]] please verify that they meet the guidelines for becoming an administrator and then add them to the nominations section at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations]]
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Nominations should also include a sentence or two outlining the nominee's relevant experience and understanding of Wikitravel's policies. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 21:24, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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: The main reason for this problem is that nearly all the current admins have left to start another project. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 22:01, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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::W. Frank is correct -- qualified admins are needed now, and to guide this project going forward. This is an excellent fresh start for Wikitravel :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:29, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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== Massive spamming ==
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Can the techies improve the captcha or something to cut down on the amount of spam? I've been deleting several pages a day for some time & over a dozen today, and I am not the only admin doing it, but there are lots more. Most involve accounts apparently registered only to spam. Is there a way to prevent spambot registrations? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 01:24, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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:Captcha is at its highest level (recaptcha, actually). We're exploring new ways to combat spam accounts, including the Abuse Filter extension. If you notice patterns in the spammers, please let me know. Whether it's coming from a common IP range, always posting the same exact content, similar usernames, etc -- if there's a pattern we can write a rule around, we can set up blocks.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:34, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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:: One obvious pattern is the dozens of pages with long strings of digits as page names, all with the same content, created by one user. [[Special:Contributions/Русская_месть]]
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:: Another is use of the <nowiki><br></nowiki> tag, not needed on a wiki but found in many pages whose pattern is "Hello, I'm Bozo McGuffin from Camelot.<nowiki><br><br></nowiki> See my blog:" then some rubbish link. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:33, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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:: Thinking about it, if there was a way to prohibit new users from posting links -- for example just reject any edit to a new user page that includes a link -- that would eliminate most spam. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:51, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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::: [[User:Пиздец неруси!]] is spamming. Block immediately. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 07:42, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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::::Yes, he has vandalized hundreds of articles. Blocking him before he vandalizes a few hundred more articles might be a nice idea... <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 08:25, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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If you feel strongly about this, as I do, then why not suggest other Wikitravellers — including yourself — for [[Wikitravel:Administrators|Administrator status]]?
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Please verify that they (you?) meet the guidelines for becoming an administrator and then add them to the nominations section at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations]]. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 09:17, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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:FYI, we have placed some filters, as well as scripted the mass deletion of the vandalism over the last 2 days. It's not a big deal in the end, just a minor annoyance. Vandalizing a wiki... pointless. Thank you all for you help.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:54, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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::That's great news! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:09, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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This account [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD_-_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5_%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F_%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5!&limit=500&target=%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD+-+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5+%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F+%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5!] has vandalised thousands of pages. On the software side of things, can making more than "X number of edits in X amount of time" by a new user/IP address be blocked? [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 03:33, 26 September 2012 (EDT) PS:The name translates (Google Translate) as "Stalin-our shared combat". Wonder if it has something to do with those Pro-Communist/Russian nationalist people we've had to deal with on the Russia & Tiraspol pages?
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:PPS:Looks like several vandalism bots might be those people.  За Родину!= For the Motherland!  Слава России!!!=Glory to Russia!  Слава Родине!=Glory to the motherland!  Пиздец неруси!=Nerusi f***ed!  Русская месть=Русская месть  Возмездие= Retaliation Месть русских=Revenge of the Russian That's all the Cyrillic user names that appear in the block log going back through the 14th.
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:The red box being put on pages corresponds with the [http://wikitravel.org/ru/%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA:%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9 page of the user] that has taken over the Russian WT merging former Soviet countries into the "Russia" page. User page translates to: "Слава России! GLORY OF RUSSIA! Glory to the great heroes of the Russian land! Honor, praise, honor and eternal glory to the victorious people! Kudos to you, brave,    GLORY, fearless!        Eternal glory SINGS TO YOU PEOPLE. Valiantly lived,    Death is broken,        MEMORIES OF YOU WILL NEVER DIE! WE - RUSSIAN, God with us!"  Clearly some delusional apparatchik well-versed in Russian nationalist, revisionist history. Can Cyrillic characters be blocked from new user names? Any other ways to deal with this? Seems to me like the people who gave us the headache over on the Russia/Tiraspol pages were likely from Transnistria (which corresponds to the Tiraspol edits & the fact that Transnistria remains stuck in the 1980s with the Communist party in charge). Any way to automatically block (or put restrictions on editing capability) of Moldovan IP addresses? Possible to also add Ukraine, too, because Transnistria borders it and it's possible telecom services might come from Ukraine due to the conflict between Moldova/Transnistria.[[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 04:22, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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: Can we make it impossible to register an account on en with a non-ASCII name? There have been at least two accounts with Russian names used for vandalism. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 03:45, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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::I see the vandalism and your heroic efforts. I think both those restrictions are on the table and good ideas.  Thanks for your heroic efforts in reverting. We'll have to see about a mass revert via username. If the Abuse Filter can handle the x edits/x time restriction, that might do it. Even if we set it to 50/hour, it would have helped here tremendously.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 03:56, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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I would strongly deprecate any blocking based on geographical area or Cyrillic alphabet names. We do not want the innocent to suffer because of the guilty. Number of edits allowable per minute (if technically feasible) would not penalise the innocent newbie so much, but set much lower limits eg 1 edit per 2 minutes for 1st 7 days  of a new account, then 1 edit per 1 minute for next 7 days, then 2 edits per 1 minute for next 28 days, then 3 edits per 1 minute for next 90 days, subject to manual override on appeal. -- <strike>[[Special:Contributions/89.242.187.211|89.242.187.211]]</strike> [[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 04:36, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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:I agree with Frank, we shouldn't discriminate against a certain area or language. Anyways, the vandal could switch to ASCII names, so there's not much point in blocking non-ASCII names. But I'm fine with an edits per minute limit. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 10:23, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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:: I am taking out anywhere from two to twenty spam pages every time I visit, and that is just the obvious stuff. I'm not even looking at the dozens that are probably spam, the ones with a three-line intro to a "user" and some irrelevant link. Nor am I patrolling edits other than new pages and some things on my watchlist. I am doing far more deletions now than I used to when there was a whole crew of editors, but I'm also seeing more problems I do not have time for and much less patrolling by other admins.
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:: If IB want to keep this site alive despite the massive defection of editors, something must be done quite urgently. Either find many new editors or have IB employees doing extensive patrolling. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:48, 14 October 2012 (EDT)
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::: And the spammers are getting craftier. I believe [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Dajamer&diff=prev&oldid=1941189 this one] created several different "Black Hat" user names to vandalise dozens of pages and then went back using his "White hat" user account to "repair" the damage - but also added a tailored external link to a travel guide each time, hoping it would not be noticed in the pag3 "restoration"!
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:::IBadmins are doing extensive patrolling Monday to Friday but there are patterns in this spamming which could be used to automate reversions.
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:::Meanwhile, I would hope that we might see some more [[Wikitravel:Administrator_nominations|Administrator nominations here...]] --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 10:08, 15 October 2012 (EDT)
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::::Thank for that alert, guys -- were you in fact seeing that spam piling up on the weekend? We do expect to see less of that as more admins are starting to peck away at night and weekends. We also are in the process of implementing a number of filters that keep vandalism and spam more at bay, but there is only so much Captcha and filtering can do versus NEW pages; no system is going to be able to tell what is a "good" new page and what is not, because there's very little commonality with which to write a rule that prevents them without potentially preventing "good" new pages from being created.
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::::The good news is, new content continues to be added to WT at a fantastic rate. This site is doing great, and you two are part of the reason. If you have ideas for spam remediation, I am more than happy to implement them!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:24, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::::I do have one lead that you might want to check out - but since I suspect it might be against (your implicit) policy to mention the source here, I will email you about it. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:44, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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===Abuse filter===
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The abuse filter names are singularly unhelpful (they appear to be named after things like Stephen King novels and the like).  When a user gets a message like "A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Lethal Weapon", that doesn't help them make more constructive edits, because it doesn't explain what the problem was.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 16:47, 25 October 2012 (EDT)
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===Legal action?===
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User [[User:IBlegal]] has made some imprecise and obnoxious threats and IB has actually sued some users and there are countersuits[https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/09/05/wikimedia-foundation-seeks-declaratory-relief-in-response-to-legal-threats-from-internet-brands/].
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Would it not be a better use of legal dep't time to go after the spammers who are actively and persistently damaging the site? I took out 24 rubbish pages today, 19 yesterday, and I'm just doing the obvious ones. Unchecked, these bozos will destroy WT.
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Also, going after spammers would be much better politically, doing something that might help all the other wiki sites out there rather than appearing petulant and aggressive. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 06:09, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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:You're not wrong! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:01, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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::That was literally months ago. We've moved on.
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::FYI legal has nothing whatsoever to do with spam. Spam is handled here, by people like you & me. Some of it we can handle technically, a lot of it manually. This is how it is everywhere. It's a neverending battle, but we do very well at it. I saw your edits over the weekend and recently, Pashley, and you're doing an amazing job! For instance: the life of the [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Undelete/Various_Knobs_and_pulls_for_door knob and door] page was... about 3 hours? That's fantastic!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:05, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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:::That's great news if it really is true that Internet Brands have reached an out of court settlement with the Wikimedia foundation and the former contributors to this site that it sued, IBobi. Where can we see the press release and ''then'' move on? --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:23, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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::: Good question! [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:02, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Yes, I know that currently "legal has nothing whatsoever to do with spam"; I am suggesting that they should. There are laws in place that make misuse of other people's computers a criminal offense and/or grounds for a lawsuit in many jurisdictions. The site logs have IP addresses for where this rubbish comes from. The spam itself has URLs for advertised pages. I'm both cynical and biased, so my opinion of IB's legal department is remarkably low, but I imagine they could do this. It might even be profitable if they nail the right spammers. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:13, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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:Again, you're not wrong!
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:Although, the hard case spammers can use proxy servers and internet cafe's to try and attempt to circumvent these lawsuits, it would be a relatively trivial programming task to block IP edits (as opposed to edits by registered users) from each proxy or IP address as it becomes known for abuse. In this case I would suggest also blocking edits by registered users from each black-listed proxy or IP address until an editor using a black-listed proxy or IP address has made a certain number of good edits - say 15 - so that privacy obsessed and registered "good" editors are not handicapped in any way.
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:Thanks for continuing your spam removal, Pashley! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 10:15, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::Ideally I agree with all of this. Internet companies have explored many avenues for actually tracking down spammers who blast their sites. The sad reality is they continue to make enough money doing this that they can afford to employ armies of people in between themselves and the site, masking IPs, and generally making themselves untouchable to anything short of the FBI; and if they're outside the US? No idea. Interpol? We always do as Frank suggested, blocking obvious spam user accounts permanently while also blocking the IP address they come from for a shorter amount of time. It's the best that can be done, and it works. The amount and type of spam we had three months ago was night and day compared to now. As we continue to add admins, it will get even better.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:46, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::: You think the current situation is "better"? Wow! To me, it seems an almost complete disaster.
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::: Checking recent changes, I find I have nuked 57 garbage pages in the last four days. I am ''only'' checking main article space and only taking out really obvious spam. There are certainly dozens I am missing; I would not be surprised if it were hundreds.
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::: Moreover, I generally just nuke the page leaving it to others to block the bogus users. I quite often see the page reappear in my watchlist with new spam, indicating that no-one is doing those blocks. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 14:07, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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:::::It's definitely better; the measure is not how many spam pages appear, it's how long do they live on the site for. If a spammer/spambot creates a page, we delete the page, block the spam account and block the IP they used, the same spammer can then create the same page using a new account and IP. That's why you may see that happening after you nuke a page; it isn't the same IP or account, it's the same spammer. If I could delete *people* I would ;)
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:::::By the same token, if you do happen to see the same page reappear after being created by the same user/IP, please let me know. We can always use more tips on how to get it done best. Whenever possible, I use the following technique:
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:::::1. Locate spam edit. 2. Block user/IP. 3. Protect the spam page to be editable admins only (in the hopes that it won't be able to be recreated). 4. Delete the spam page.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:16, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::::::You talk a good game but, as my neighbours sometimes say in Glasgow [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1952468&oldid=1952345 you seem to be all mouth and nae troosers!].
+
::::::IB: "As we continue to add admins" but [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1953924&oldid=1953816]
+
 
+
Good luck. I took out a dozen rubbish pages today, but I feel like I'm almost alone both as a contributor & as an admin. There are masses of admin work being left undone &mdash; patrolling in general, in particular catching the bogus user pages I mentioned above, blocking the bogus users for pages I've deleted (one spambot whose drivel I removed refilled the page eight times before I got bored & removed it from my watchlist; it is probably still active), appointing new admins (see troosers just above), ...
+
 
+
My editing work now is on other wikis where there's a reasonable community to interact with and admin things actually get done. I'll keep the account here and pop in from time to time to see what's doing, but for now I'm done with even trying to fix the spam problem. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 17:16, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:''Bon voyage'', Sandy!
+
:The dwindling '''real''' community on Wikitravel (as opposed to some PR-speak or Orwellian new definition) certainly have appreciated your erudite contributions and dogged persistence to the bitter end here.
+
 
+
:I'll probably linger on (at least until fired by IBobi or one of his minions) since I hate seeing a good project destroyed by boneheaded stupidity and inaction. I'll message you privately via one of your other projects (since e-mailing is still disabled here) if there is anything cosmic that needs your urgent attention. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 19:35, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:::Very sorry to hear that. In general, this *is* how spam gets removed. I and the other admins here at IB are constantly removing the spam that gets through the Captcha, Spam Blacklist, and Abuse Filters that we are also constantly updating. There will always be people trying to spam the site, and we'll always be here removing it. It's simply not possible to stop it all on the front end, so blocking and deleting is the order of the day. It's a fact of life, and any site that encourages anyone to edit it will have to deal.
+
:::You've been a very valuable admin here, Sandy, and I hope you'll reconsider & stay. Any suggestions you have will be heeded; in particular, if there are persistent spambots, we can block them at the IP level, or even rages of IPs -- there's no reason to continually remove the same content.
+
:::Either way, we'll be seeing you around, and thank you :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:52, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::: Pashley, it's sad to see you giving up. Please know, that everybody here '''highly appreciates your contributions''' and your '''administrative efforts'''. Spam is going to be always happening on sites where the content is generated by users. Actually, right now IB notices way less spam than it used to be. There are more people keeping an eye on the site plus we set up a bunch of abuse filters that help us significantly.
+
:::We would like to  see you here often. Please know that you are always welcomed on Wikitravel! Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 19:54, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Help! ==
+
 
+
I'm trying to remove vandalism on the page [[Midwest (United States of America)]]. But I can't, and I get the message:
+
 
+
This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your edit was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Link spamming by anonymous or recently-registered users
+
 
+
Why is reverting vandalism harmful?! (unsigned by [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/204.45.134.109 204.45.134.109])
+
 
+
:Hi there, It may be that your edit included a link, which is something the system looks for from newly registered or anonymous IP editors (since they are often sources of spam). Sorry about that, it's a protection that helps keep Wikitravel's pages clean and spam-free. I recommend registering an account, and after you've become recognized by the community and the system, your edits can be properly attributed to you, etc. Welcome aboard!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:42, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Also, I have made that revert!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:58, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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+
::Ok, I've made an account and I'm trying to revert vandalism on the page [[Mombasa]], but I cant, and I still get the same message! Im only trying to help wikitravel. [[User:Ÿ;;!!!|Ÿ;;!!!]] 09:31, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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+
:::I'm sorry, I realize you're helping by editing the page back to where it was before. Please keep making constructive edits -- we're happy to have you!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 03:07, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== MVGreenland ==
+
 
+
User [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/MVGreenland MVGreenland] has been contributing many listings and photos (see WS). What do you think of these contributions? Touting?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:34, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
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+
:Someone needs to review all the photos to ensure the licensing is correct...someone over on WT Shared needs to check these. Make sure to click the link to the photo. At first I clicked the link to the user stream and saw all the photos were copyrighted. However, when I clicked on the link to the photo ([http://wikitravel.org/shared/File:Raining_Qaqortoq.jpeg on WTS] and [http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilovegreenland/4929429831/ on flickr]) I noticed it was licensed CC-SA 2.5 on WTS & CC-A 2.0 on flickr. As far as edits go, I went through the most recent 100 edits and didn't see anything that goes against our policies. There were a couple photos of businesses added (1-2 hotels & a bookshop), but none of the wording in hotel listings this user has added sound like touting. IMO, the user seems like a very helpful contributor to our Greenland pages. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 00:24, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Thanks for that -- I generally felt the same way, as did IBcash, about the tone of his edits. Skirting the line perhaps but nothing worse than other business owners do.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 01:29, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Selection of Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path for Main Page ==
+
 
+
Hey current editors! We have changed the Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path sections of the Main Page for October. However, we would value your input and suggestions in the [[Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates|Destination of the Month candidates page]] for following months. Please check it out! [[User:IBcash|IBcash]] 15:38, 2 October 2012 (EDT)
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+
:Obviously I'd like to feature a New Zealand destination - but first I need to get one to Star status! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 07:50, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
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+
::Albuquerque has been already featured in the past as a Destination of the Month. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 17:01, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
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::: You're right! It slipped past me. Thanks! Since we changed it early because we didn't have one in September, we could keep it there until the 15th (the actual time when the OTBP would change) and then change it. What do you think? Any suggestions for another October OTBP? [[User:IBcash|IBcash]] 13:59, 4 October 2012 (EDT)
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+
::::Thanks guys.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:55, 16 October 2012 (EDT)
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+
:::::Hello! Are there any suggestions for the '''Destination of the Month''' and '''Off the Beaten Path''' for '''December'''. Please let us know your ideas [[Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates|here]]. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 19:04, 27 November 2012 (EST)
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:::::I think that [[Jacksonville]] would be a good '''Destination Of The Month''' for February or March. What do you think? [[User:Travelgeek]] 12:34, 27 December 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== References/footnotes/quoting ==
+
 
+
Hello everyone,
+
 
+
Being an experienced Wikipedia editor, but very, '''very''' new to Wikitravel editing (though a somewhat frequent reader of), I - on my very first intended edit - ran into a question.<br />
+
In the [[Slovakia#By_car|By car]]-section of the [[Slovakia]] travel guide, I would like to have quoted a part of the [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/europe/slovakia UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office travel advice for Slovakia]: "''The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills).''" In my view it sums it up very brilliantly (having being a driving tourist in Slovakia on several occasions) and I think, that sourcing it would only make it all the more authoritative in this case. While being a reader of Wikitravel I have never pondered over the "lack" of quotes, but I have now looked into both a number of articles as well as various parts of the [[Wikitravel:Manual of style]], the [[Wikitravel:External links]] (could be it had something - it didn't) and [[Wikitravel:Welcome, Wikipedians]]/[[Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia]]/[[shared:How to re-use Wikipedia content]] (Wikipedia is rather anal about quoting and sourcing). Basically I came up empty-handed in all cases. I even found [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Reflist]] indicating that I'm not the only one with this "predicament". So my question is:<br />
+
How do I quote and reference it?
+
I'm inclined to just insert a statement such as:
+
:As the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office put it in their [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/europe/slovakia travel advice for Slovakia]: "The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills)."
+
But I would rather do it in the right manner, in case I have missed something very obvious :). In kind regards, Henrik/[[User:Heb|Heb]] 04:01, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
+
::You could go the short quote route (under the fair dealing copyright provisions) providing a link to the source (that might quickly become outdated) but it might be better just to put that in your own words - especially if you've personal experience of driving in Slovakia. That would mean one less external link - [[Wikitravel:External_links|which we prefer]]. We normally don't reference material here and unless we're (rarely) using a direct quote, don't usually source either. Enjoy your new-found freedom and plunge forward Henrik!--[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 07:55, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== SVG-files? ==
+
 
+
Okay, another question from newbie Dane, but please bare with me...<br />
+
I wanted to update the S-train-map in the [[Copenhagen#Get_around|Get around]]-section of the [[Copenhagen]] travel guide. The one currently there is from 2009, and there has been two changes since then. Because I am slightly lazy, I thought of using the [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S-train_diagram_(dec_2011).svg map from Wikimedia Commons], which as far as I read [[shared:Tech:Enable InstantCommons]] should be fairly easy. Unfortunately the simple <nowiki>[[Image:S-train diagram (dec 2011).svg|thumb|420px|Map of S-trains and Metro in the Copenhagen area, with districts marked in the background]]</nowiki> didn't work - and neither did replacing Image: with File:. So I tried including a .png-file from Wikimedia Commons and that actually did work :)<br />
+
Then I did a [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search=svg&fulltext=Search&ns6=1&redirs=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext=Advanced+search search for .svg-files on Wikitravel] and there seems to be a lot of them. But none of them works. So I'm guessing there is an issue with SVG-files somewhere. I tried with SVG-files on Wikimedia Commons and there have no problems. What do I do? In kind regards, Henrik/[[User:Heb|Heb]] 04:28, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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:I'm afraid this is beyond my knowledge - but I can confirm it's a real problem - I had to substitute a png file for an svg file in [[Template:Busy|this template]], Henrik. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 17:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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::I will have tech look into this! Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:30, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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+
:::OK -- we're seeing that they do in fact work (you have to click all the way through to the actual file, not the thumbnail), they just won't produce thumbnails.
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:::Can you tell me how you're uploading them, and where, step by step, i.e. 1) Go this page 2) Edit 3) Upload this file or reference this file 4) Error?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:50, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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+
::::Looks like this may be fixed; thumbnails should slowly repopulate as the cache rebuilds over time. Let me know if this is still not working as expected.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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+
 
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== Travel news ==
+
Hello! I would like to call to action all the administrators and contributors on WT.
+
For a long time [[Travel news]] have been outdated. It is time to change it and keep the Travel Alerts and Current and upcoming events up-to-date. To achieve that, '''I need your help'''. Who is willing to offer his/her help? Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:54, 29 October 2012 (EDT)
+
:I think many of us are waiting for some straight answers [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers%27_pub&oldid=1954973#Clarification here] before we decide whether it's worth the effort in doing anything other than curating the articles that have already been written, Aleksandra. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 19:56, 15 November 2012 (EST)
+
::It's a pity to hear that, Frank, because I really believe in Wikitravel and I would like to make the site as much updated as possible. I know that with '''yours''' and '''community''' support it will be easier and better. [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 20:27, 15 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==Edit war: [[Stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]]==
+
The [[stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]] (and to some extent [[Sweden]]) is frequently subject to edit conflicts, many of them pushing the opinion that Stockholm would be a dangerous city. Can you give some advice how to solve this disagreement? Thanks in advance. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 09:45, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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:Hello Blist! Thank you for notifying me. I checked it out and I saw that the user with the IP address 84.217.118.107 has made just one change in the [[stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]]. However, I have already contacted him asking to avoid edit wars on [[Stockholm]] page and discuss all the changes he is planning to do on the [[Talk:Stockholm| discussion page]].
+
:I am also watching this page so I will keep an eye on this issue. Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:04, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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+
::The best solution is always to discuss the changes you both are making, using the Discussion page for that article. Sometimes it can be difficult to get an IP user to engage in this way. Try leaving a detailed note in the Edit Summary asking him/her to talk to you.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:43, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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::: POV-pushing continues, by first-time unregistered users. Can anything more be done? Please contribute to [[Talk:Stockholm]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 07:06, 26 November 2012 (EST)
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+
== Travel booking tool! ==
+
Soon, Wikitravellers will have the ability not only to browse and edit travel topics right here on the world's largest and best free travel wiki, but also to *book* travel from the very same page.
+
 
+
Wikitravel has partnered with Orbitz to bring you a tool that will give you air and hotel booking options on each destination page in our travel guide. If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
+
 
+
We've worked with the Wikitravel community over the past 2 years to determine exactly what the look and feel of the tool ought to be; please let us know any feedback you have, and we'll make every effort to accommodate changes! Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:34, 19 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:I think this is a great idea for monetising the site!
+
:I also like the way that none of our registered editors will probably ever notice this. After all, you're not wrong when you continually point out that there are millions of visitors to this site who never bother to register and will automatically get a chance to make bookings.
+
:So as not to weaken the credibility of the ads, it's even more important to give more people effective janitor tools!
+
:However, I still think that you should clarify in writing the community established policies you have changed. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
+
::I've switched on the display of Orbitz but still I never see it. What pages is it actually working on, please?
+
::Also, Wikitravel has been slow to the point of being unusable today from this Pacific Rim country - the competing Wikimedia site loads more than 100 times faster on identical pages like [[North Korea]]. More than 20 times in succession I get the "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data" message. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 04:07, 22 November 2012 (EST)
+
:::Did I miss an important announcement? I still don't see the display of Orbitz travel information but now the option to switch it on has disappeared completely from my preferences. What gives? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 02:54, 30 November 2012 (EST)
+
::::At this time, the tool is only available if you are not logged in. We will restore functionality to those who wish to use it while logged in soon.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 30 November 2012 (EST)
+
Thanks for your prompt response.
+
 
+
I assume you are still having technical problems since I have just seen the Orbitz tool appear for the first time '''while logged in''' and with my preferences flag '''not''' set to "Show Orbitz Search", as this screenshot clearly shows if you click on it to enlarge: [[Image:WikitravelScreenshot20121201Orbitz-Displays-while-logged-in.png|150px|Screenshot a few moments after IBobi's assertion]] Please feel free to email me if you need help.
+
 
+
With [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers%27_pub&curid=76403&diff=1961629&oldid=1961571 this edit] you removed another user's comments. Unless there are exceptional reasons, this is frowned upon, so I assume the excision was accidental, yes? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:10, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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+
:Alice- you have to go to your web browser's options and '''clear cache''' . Then the Orbitz Widget will not show again. I hope it helps. [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:27, 30 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==[[Southwest (United States of America)]]==
+
What happened to this page? Its text is now on [[Southwest United States]] but that page doesn't contain the history. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 22:00, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
+
:Bizarre! You might want to check the logs. (IBadmins have recently promoted - without any community discussion or warning - a number of admins that, unlike yourself, have a very limited understanding of the policies and procedures of the English Wikitravel. Equally it might be some new spammer trickery.) --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:57, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
+
::Fixed; no biggie. Just re-saved from earlier edit. Happens with MW database on occasion.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 04:58, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
+
:::Thanks for your very rapid response.
+
:::I have deleted the contents & re-directed: [[Southwest (United States of America)]] since it's a breach of our Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike licence to duplicate a page without duplicating the attribution history.
+
:::I'm still baffled as to how (on the face of it) an IP editor managed to duplicate an article and then delete the original (and its edit history) and all without leaving a trace in the logs. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
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+
::::Without doing extensive research, I'm not sure that's how it went down. Looked to me like a DB error that was easily corrected. At any rate, after verifying that the "new" page redirects also redirected to the "old" page, I went ahead and deleted the "new" page, as it consisted of nothing more than dupe content, which is confusing. We don't want people contributing on one location and not the other, which is just what would happen.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:52, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
===Database error===
+
What is this database error? There are many pages missing including [[Ocean City]], [[Sydney/Bondi Beach]], [[Afrikaans phrasebook]]. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 18:27, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+
:We're looking into what causes this. Obviously we do not want to wait until a knowledgeable editor like yourself discovers pages that are unusable. Did you find these by browsing to them or by some other method?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:39, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==[[Wikitravel:Geocoding]] is also broken==
+
The article above states: "''It's possible to encode information about the latitude and longitude of a destination into the destination guide itself. This information will then be used to make special HTML tags to show that the page is related to those lat/long coordinates;"..."A "Map" link will also be added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane, which will take users to a Google, Yahoo, or Microsoft map of the location.''"
+
 
+
I've added the relevant template to our [[Nelson (New Zealand)]] article but the "Map" link was '''not''' added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane! --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 20:37, 6 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:Hmm. Research shows that there have been problems with this template interfering with formatting. And not being terribly useful besides. We'll have to look into this one. Do you see an example where it is working?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:35, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::I can't find any page where it is '''not''' currently broken - sorry.
+
 
+
::It's not terribly useful to save the few keystrokes needed to key "Nelson, New Zealand" into the on-line mapping provider of your choice but
+
:#it would enhance the advertising click revenue of Internet Brands to have our relevant article page (with advertising by default) show up on users geocode-enabled smartphones according to their GPS location
+
:#it's '''''very''''' useful to find out of the way places (often in third world countries) where names are often incompletely found or differently spelt on maps. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 17:01, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==ISBN book references are also broken==
+
As can be seen if you click on any of the ISBN numbers (in blue) in this section: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Philippines&oldid=1951302#Books
+
 
+
You are taken to the special page but, although the search box is correctly pre-populated the "Go" search button no longer works. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:26, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:Hmm. I'll queue it; no guarantees on timing as this is the first I've seen of this functionality.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:00, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::Appears to be working as designed. It's generating the AMAZON and B&N, etc. links at the bottom of the page. The input box is just to refresh the page and generate those links. Let me know if you have info to the contrary.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:12, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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+
==Clarification==
+
Because of the recent [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Pratyeka&diff=prev&oldid=1949763 misunderstanding] of our policies by a long-standing Wikipedia admin, I have clarified and re-emphasised [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel%3AExternal_links&action=historysubmit&diff=1950083&oldid=1896765 our specific policies on linking to (or promoting) other travel sites that use wiki editing software here]. I doubt that many will read it in advance, but at least the clarified policy is now there to be quoted in explanation after a redaction or deletion. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
'''UPDATE''': My clarifications have now been deleted (twice).
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+
So we are now back to the hypocrytical situation of having one policy actively enforced and promulgated (at least by some IBadmins) without ever having that policy enunciated on any policy page that I am aware of. I think I'll change my user name to ''George Orwell''. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 18:48, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+
  
:1. WT editors are not to make changes to policies unilaterally. That is why the changes were reverted (at the request of another non-IB editor). 2. The policy in question doesn't really need a change. It's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. And it's almost entirely in the past. Thus there is no reason to amend policy, both because as it stands it is being applied consistently, and because the situation requiring that interpretation was unique and has now passed. It's time to move forward.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:06, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to [[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]] and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, leave it alone—it's better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.}}
  
::1) I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you genuinely do not think '''We do not allow (and will attempt to strenuously police and expunge) external links to, or promotion of, ''travel'' websites that are not primary sources - this policy ''includes other wikis'', whether Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licensed or not''' has been our policy for a long time or <s>I'm a Dutchman</s> the policy in question has always existed and doesn't really need a change. Instead it's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. That interpretation needs to be made explicit and prominent to avoid edit wars.
 
::2) I do think it completely Orwellian and counter productive not to explicitly warn people that they should not include links to or use the ''naughty names'' of other travel wikis in text - particularly those that have recently started operating from Wikimedia servers. Since I am not an admin I really do need an explicit policy to link to in a terse but precise and authoritative way when I excise ''naughty names or links'' if the (often ''bona fide'' but ignorant-of-our-policy-that-can-not-speak-its-name) editor is not to be left puzzled, frustrated and annoyed by my (to him, incomprehensible) edits. An example of this is where an article discussion section dating back to July 2006 was removed to the [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1951308&oldid=1950874 genuine puzzlement of an IP contributor]. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:51, 7 November 2012 (EST)
 
  
On a related but different topic, I really find it objectionable that no official announcements are being made about new admin appointments.
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__TOC__
  
It is bad enough that folks are [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBMaarten&action=historysubmit&diff=1954335&oldid=1954333 arbitrarily being made an admin on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience+nomination+discussion process but secret appointments] are really not my idea of "moving on".
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==Country's official name and type of government==
 +
It seems that I and [[User:Ttcf]] have reached an impasse. Ttcf argues that adding the correct type of government to the infobox and adding the official name of a country in the article will make Wikitravel more like a inferior version of Wikipedia. While I argue that it will not, and if so, what about the infobox? If adding the official name and correct type of government will make Wikitravel more like Wikipedia, than the infobox shouldn't be in the articles about countries. And then the official name, adding the countries actual name like say adding ''officialy, Nation of Brunei, the Abode of Peace'' to the article about Brunei will make WT more like WP? It's not like I'm adding the countries leader(s) or defence budget to the article. [[User:Seqqis|Seqqis]] ([[User talk:Seqqis|talk]]) 18:19, 30 November 2014 (EST)
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:I think that this may well boil down to a question of [[tone]].
 +
:I see that you [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Seqqis are very active and experienced at Wikipedia] but that encourages dry, encyclopaedic writing.
 +
:We're a Travel Guide and should write our articles from the point of view of the traveller. We're enjoined to ""''Be conversational and informal when writing articles''", and told that "''Lively writing is welcome. The requirement of being fair should not be taken to mean that all writing must be bland and encyclopaedic. Wikitravel should celebrate travel, and you should feel free to share the adventure and excitement of the journey and the destination through your writing. For example, North Korea's human rights situation can and should be summed up as an "Orwellian nightmare", as opposed to noting that "some organizations have expressed concern about less than full compliance to international human rights standards, a charge vigorously denied by the Foreign Ministry."''"
 +
:I do indeed think that
 +
:a) it's impossible to encapsulate most country's governmental systems in a few short words appropriate to our quickbar
 +
:b) trying to do so leads to endless unproductive tussles
 +
:c} most travellers are sincerely and resolutely uninterested in whether France is [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=France&diff=2265458&oldid=2265456 a "Unitary semi-presidential constitutional republic"] rather than just a common or garden variety republic. (Is there any governement that claims to operate a "''non''-constitutional republic"?) For those that are interested we can add the information lower down in the "Understand" section.
 +
:d) we should remove the "governement" category from the quickbar (and perhaps replace it with something succinct and factual and possibly of more interest to the traveller such as the number of murders per 100,000 residents per year or the number of overseas visitors per year or just shorten the length of the quickbar altogether by leaving one less entry...)
 +
:None of the information you keep adding to various articles is being expunged. It's just that some of the stuff about the legal drinking age for alcohol or soliciting prostitutes or screwing the locals or whether France is currently on it's Fifth Republic, deserves a different prominence lower down in the body of the article rather than as the first thing that socks you in the eye when you start reading. (And please remember that the quickbar is all you get to read in the Mobile version unless you open other headings!)
 +
:While I have this opportunity, I also sincerely doubt that most practical travellers give a hoot about what languages are [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=New_Zealand&diff=next&oldid=2249883 "'''Official'''"] (Māori is the name of a people and not their language) and which are not -they just want to know what to expect. While it may be amusing to know that England and the US have no official language (no, not even their respective versions of English) and that New Zealand has Te Reo as an official language, what's really important in a travel guide is that English should get you by in all three. These kind of interesting tidbits about quirks of language and constitutional arrangements belong in the body text - not usually in the opening paragraphs (technically our H1 heading, and what search engines give most importance to).
 +
:Do you really think that an opening of  
 +
:::'''France''' (Officialy the ''French Republic'')  is a country located in Western [[Europe]]. Clockwise from the north, France borders [[Belgium]], [[Luxembourg]] and [[Germany]] to the northeast, [[Switzerland]] to the east, [[Italy]] to the south-east and [[Spain]] to the south-west, across the Pyrenees mountain range (the small country of [[Andorra]] lies in between the two countries). The Mediterranean Sea lies to the south of France, with the [[Monaco|Principality of Monaco]] forming a small enclave. To the west, France has a long Atlantic Ocean coastline, while to the north lies the English Channel, across which lies the last of France's neighbours, [[England]] (part of the [[United Kingdom]]). In the Carribean, France borders the [[Netherlands]] via the French territory of [[Saint-Martin]] which borders the Dutch territory of [[Sint Maarten]]. Five oversea regions also form part of France: [[Martinique]] and [[Guadeloupe]] in the [[Caribbean]], [[French Guiana]] in [[South America]], and [[Reunion]] and [[Mayotte]], both off the coast of [[Madagascar]]. Numerous French oversea territories also exist around the Earth with varying status.
 +
:(complete with '''TWO''' spelling mistakes) is better for a travel guide than
 +
:::'''France''' is the country that more people enjoy visiting than any other.
 +
:::France is geographically one of the most diverse countries in Europe. Its cities contain some of the greatest treasures in Europe, its countryside is prosperous and well tended and it boasts dozens of major tourist attractions, like Paris, the French Riviera, the Atlantic beaches, the winter sport resorts of the French Alps, the castles of the Loire Valley, Brittany and Normandy. France is renowned for its gastronomy (particularly wines and cheeses), history, culture and fashion.
 +
:when the "missing" information about France bordering the Netherlands and Madagascar can still be found further down the page?
 +
:Please remember that most of our country pages were seeded by material being imported from the ''CIA Fact Book'', and in many of them that US centric, what's-important-for-preserving-diplomatic-relations-or-for-invasion purpose still shows - right down to the formulaic and often imprecise "''the country''" scattered throughout many articles. The lead paragraphs for most countries are well overdue a complete re-write. --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 19:04, 30 November 2014 (EST)
 +
::The govt info line should be deleted from the quickbar template. We can't do it well in just a word or two and attempting the impossible just leads to edit wars - we should leave that sort of stuff to Wikipedia - especially since all of our country articles are already linked to the relevant Wikipedia article. --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 07:18, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
If this character is '''not''' an admin, I really deprecate that this [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3AActiveUsers&limit=50&username=IB naming loophole] has not been plugged weeks ago as I suggested! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:11, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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==Additional information  for images==
 +
Is there a suggested maximum length for a caption?
  
:Unfortunately there's no way I know of to prevent that yet. But since we watch all new user creation, we'll catch it if it happens. Sometimes users are appointed internally as admins. No biggie. I was such a user, and look how great I've turned out :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:21, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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If the caption says it all, should the description repeat the caption or be left blank?
  
::Has [[User_talk:IBMaarten|IBMaarten]] arbitrarily been made an admin, on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience + nomination + discussion process but as a secret appointment?? Yes or No, please. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:35, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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If the credit and the source would be identical should the source repeat the credit or be left blank?
  
:::I thought I explained it? And the edit that made him an admin was clear: he's administering the Dutch site, and also working on EN. There's nothing secret, Frank. Rejoice: and welcome the new admin!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:50, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Should credit be to Wikitravel ID or full name of photographer? Assuming work is being uploaded by the photographer. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: MichaelRpdx|MichaelRpdx]] ([[User_talk: MichaelRpdx|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/MichaelRpdx|contribs]]) </small>
::::No, we have still not had any announcement from you, any other IBadmin or a properly appointed admin, never mind on the proper pages and you have still not answered with a "Yes".
+
:'''Photos''' It may seem pedantic but [[ttcf|the traveller comes first]]: is the caption you want to write more useful than blank space? There is no technical limit on photo captions as far as I'm aware but more than a few dozen words would probably not be useful. A caption shouldn't replace a listing and there will definitely be information that a caption would never include (like a fax number). Sourcing a photo shouldn't necessarily be the same as the credit but if they are, it's fine to put the same info. As far as credits ''in'' the caption of an article, it's probably irrelevant to most travellers ''who'' took a photo, so you could probably omit that. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 12:08, 19 January 2015 (EST)
::::Neither was his admin status on the English language version of Wikitravel showing at: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3AActiveUsers&limit=50&username=IB at the time I posed the question above and at the time I make this edit.(I've taken a screenshot which I can post if you doubt my veracity).
+
:::::We're not mind readers, you know and you really are abusing all of our policies and processes now. As for there being nothing secret, that really is a lie as Alice makes clear above.
+
:::::Would you now make clear (with a properly formatted diff) what exactly  was "the edit that made him an admin", please?
+
:::::And for the avoidance of doubt, I personally have no objection in principle to admins from other language versions being rapidly promoted to admin status on the EN Wikitravel. But there should be a clear announcement on the proper page(s) each time this happens and you urgently need to revise all those policy pages that you currently keep flouting. To do anything less is to destroy any chance of re-building the community that has been decimated by your autocratic and thoroughly whimsical decisions, never mind poisoning the wholehearted welcome that would otherwise be given to new (and sorely needed) wielders of the mop. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:30, 15 November 2012 (EST)
+
  
::::::I believe you can view [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_patrol_log=1 this page?] Sorry you're unhappy Frank. We're promoting anyone who gets the required community support in the required time period, and shows the best qualities to help the community move forward. Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:46, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Right, OK, that clarifies the length of caption question. To clarify my question, it refers to the fields of the template one fills out when uploading an image.
 +
:'''Captions''' I don't want to be dismissive, so please don't read it this way but go for it: just try out whatever you think is best and let us know if it won't display properly or if it seems like it might be a problem. For what it's worth, I think you're doing a great job so far and you can always ask any question you want here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 12:26, 19 January 2015 (EST)
 +
::Hi, I also just left you a message on [http://wikitravel.org/shared/User_talk:MichaelRpdx Wikitravel Shared], happy to help further if needed. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 12:40, 19 January 2015 (EST)
  
:::::::That User rights log is not a page that can be added to anyone's watchlist and neither do I know of a way to find out what pages internally link to it. Do you seriously expect editors to load that page every few hours to find out what admin has been appointed on the English language version of Wikitravel most recently?
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:Koavf, understood, you did not come across as dismissive at all. This falls into the "but my English isn't so good" realm. Do what you think fits  and other people will come in and adjust as needed.<small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: MichaelRpdx|MichaelRpdx]] ([[User_talk: MichaelRpdx|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelRpdx|contribs]]) </small>
:::::::I note that you have still not dealt with the most pressing point: '''Explicit Clarification in writing''', on the English language version of Wikitravel, in the obvious places of the new policies and, if they are of only a temporary nature, their expected date of expiry. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:59, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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==Is "formatting according to our [[MoS]]" edit warring?==
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==Misuse of [[Template:Warningbox]]==
Perhaps appropriately, given its subject matter, [[Wikitravel talk:Edit war|this policy page]] has been constructed by individual editors plunging forward and writing stuff that seemed blindingly obvious to them.
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THere is an increasing tendency to misuse this template and cry Wolf too often and in too many places.
  
Rather refreshingly, a brand new IBadmin [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASingapore.Alice&action=historysubmit&diff=1956425&oldid=1956420 has queried] whether making persistent changes to article formatting is "''something that needs to be '''discussed first within the community'''. I'm referring to this [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel%3AEdit_war&action=historysubmit&diff=1956416&oldid=1516343] change.''"
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This is hardly surprising since both the strategic and practical advice about how to include governmental advisories at [[Template:Warningbox/doc]] is NOT linked or displayed on the actual template page itself!
  
Does anybody else think that (for example) when more knowledgeable editors continuously and relentlessly change formatting that does not conform to our [[Manual of Style]] (without good reason) - such as changing "150 Pesos" to the more correct "₱150" - this is edit warring?
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I would edit the template myself - except that it has been locked so that only admins can edit it. --[[Special:Contributions/222.127.76.207|222.127.76.207]] 00:02, 24 January 2015 (EST)
  
Who else thinks that in cases of controversy, the style manual should '''not''' trump? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
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'''BUMP'''! --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 00:04, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
:Edit warring is edit warring, regardless of whether one of the parties is "right" and the other party is "wrong".
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:I´m not sure what exactly you want to add to the template, as both the template page and the doc page seem to have the same information? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:40, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
:If two people are changing the article formatting back and forth, the correct thing to do is to follow the procedure discussed in [[Wikitravel:Edit war]].  [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] 22:11, 21 November 2012 (EST)
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::I [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Template:Warningbox&oldid=2207616 currently see] this when I look at <code>Template:Warningbox</code> :
::Replied to you at [[Wikitravel_talk:Edit_war]] since I'm rather baffled by your imputed suggestion that we should scrap at least one of our five [[Wikitravel:Policies_and_guidelines#General_policy| foundation policies]] that: "Text and images should follow style guidelines. With rare exception, text and images should follow our Manual of style. Exceptions should gain wide consensus; in cases of controversy, the style manual trumps."  --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 22:47, 21 November 2012 (EST)
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::The quote you included contains the words "With rare exception."  That's why you need to discuss with the other party instead of edit warring with them to see whether it makes sense for this to be such an exception.  Cheers, [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] 19:06, 23 November 2012 (EST)
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==[[Wikitravel:Requested articles]]==
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This template is meant for '''non-obvious dangers to life and limb''', and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:
I boldly started [[Wikitravel:Requested articles]] for listing links to articles that would be useful, but do not yet exist. Would it be useful for the development of Wikitravel? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 13:14, 22 November 2012 (EST)
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:Why not? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 14:27, 22 November 2012 (EST)
+
  
=="add listing" defect==
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* "civil war in this region"
[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings&diff=next&oldid=1251767#Listing_order For a long while] we have had a policy of [[listing]]s being [[alphabet]]ically ordered unless there is a good reason not to.
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* "devastated by earthquake last week"
 +
* "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
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* "death penalty for marijuana possession"
  
Unfortunately this is consistently and automatically buggered by the "add listing" option that appears in blue to the right of our standard section headings of "See", "Do", "Buy", "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" that always adds the new listing to the bottom of that particular section.
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Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).
  
Is it time to change the listing order policy or recode the robot so that it understands alphabetic order? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:34, 24 November 2012 (EST)
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Do ''not'' use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").
  
==[[Colombia]]n pesos==
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If the danger affects ''the entire region'', the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localized or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".
There are many countries around the world that use the name "dollar" and the symbol "$" for their currency. Our [[$|usual policy]] is that<br />
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''Prices should be listed with the currency symbol that travellers will encounter, specifically the local formatting. The currency symbol should always be prefixed. Travellers should be able to assume that symbols used for multiple currencies (like $ or £) apply to the local currency. Do ''not'' use currency codes like "USD", "EUR", or "GBP" if the symbol is established.
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* $100 in [[Detroit]], not US$100, 100 USD or 100 dollars
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:Whereas if the documentation at <code>Template:Warningbox/doc</code> was being properly included and displayed, I would see much more, ie:
* $100 in [[Vancouver]], not CAD$100, 100 CAD or 100 dollars
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* $100 in [[Wellington]], not NZD$100, 100 NZD or 100 dollars
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* $100 in [[Canberra]], not AUD$100, 100 AUD or 100 dollars''<br />
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and I propose no change in respect of this.
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===When to use===
 +
This template is meant for '''non-obvious dangers to life and limb''', and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:
 +
* "civil war in this region"
 +
* "devastated by earthquake last week"
 +
* "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
 +
* "death penalty for marijuana possession"
  
However, the currency of Colombia poses special dangers of inconsistency and confusion as exemplified in our [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Cartagena_%28Colombia%29&action=historysubmit&diff=1959307&oldid=1957758 Cartagena (Colombia)] article.
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Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).
  
Colombia is unusual in having an officially recognised currency symbol of "$" that (unlike Singapore, etc) is '''not''' actually used on their banknotes - where, instead, "pesos" is printed. Since prices in the tourist industry in Colombia are also often quoted in US$, <u>I propose that we use "'''pesos'''" instead of either the $ symbol or COP for Colombia currency.</u>
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Do ''not'' use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").
  
This is somewhat analogous to the "Baht or ฿" situation adjudicated at [[Wikitravel_talk:Currency]] but differs in that I propose using the plural "'''pesos'''" rather than "peso" since
+
===How to use===
#the peso is so minute as to be almost never encountered in the singular
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If the danger affects ''the entire region'', the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localised or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".
#that is the word (in Spanish) that appears on Colombian Banknotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_peso
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Does anyone disagree with my proposal?
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The warning message should be placed after the {{!}} in the template.
  
Discuss at [[Wikitravel_talk:Currency#Colombian_pesos]] rather than here, please! --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:21, 26 November 2012 (EST)
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To add advisories, insert the full and direct URLs of a particular government's country-specific information into the available country parameters: <code>australia, canada, india, ireland, nz, southafrica, uk, us</code>
  
:Nobody has raised any objections so I will now make the necessary policy change. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 18:44, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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'''Example:'''
 +
<code><nowiki>{{warningbox|March 2013: a large number of strikes and protests took place across the country in response to the trials of alleged war criminals. Both supporters and detractors of the accused are in civil disobedience campaigns. Strikes frequently turned violent, with over 60 people killed. Monitor local news for updates and try to avoid large crowds and protests.
 +
|australia=http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Bangladesh
 +
|canada=http://travel.gc.ca/destinations/bangladesh
 +
|ireland=http://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/a-z-list-of-countries/bangladesh/
 +
|nz=http://www.safetravel.govt.nz/destinations/bangladesh.shtml
 +
|uk=http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/bangladesh
 +
|us=http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html
 +
}}</nowiki></code>
  
 +
===Travel advisories===
 +
This template allows the addition of Government travel advisories. The following links may help find URLs of official advisories:
 +
* '''Australia''': See [http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Index Smartraveller]
 +
* '''Canada''': See [http://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories Travel.gc.ca]
 +
* '''India''': ''unknown''
 +
* '''Ireland''': see [http://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/ Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade]
 +
* '''New Zealand''': See [http://www.safetravel.govt.nz/advisories/index.shtml Safetravel.govt.nz]
 +
* '''South Africa''': ''unknown''
 +
* '''United Kingdom''': See [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/ Foreign & Commonwealth Office]
 +
* '''United States''': See [http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_4965.html Travel.state.gov]
  
== Las Vegas ==
+
--[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 20:26, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
First of all, I want to apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, but right now I am so frustrated that my head is spinning.
+
==Recommendation that [[tout]] be blocked for 1 day==
 +
Despite several warnings at [[User talk:Candyline]], this hotel marketeer has neither replied nor modified their touting behaviour. I recommend they be blocked for 24h as a "heads-up" not to [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Jakarta&curid=4575&diff=2282797&oldid=2276645 ignore] established and clear written policy on [[no-ref-code|marketing campaign codes in URLs]]]. --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 23:08, 3 February 2015 (EST)
  
When I was originally planning our family vacation to Las Vegas I used the WikiTravel website as a source of research for shows, attractions and places to stay. As a first time visitor to Las Vegas, the website seemed to be a prime resource providing a lot of useful information.  
+
:[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3ACandyline Thanks, Binbin]! --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 06:58, 4 February 2015 (EST)
  
We have since returned to Las Vegas several times and I absolutely love this destination and am planning to return many more times.
+
==Cebu City==
 +
Please would someone with admin privileges delete the blocking re-direct and move the page name to the most common name in the English language ((and the name already in use in many of our articles): '''Cebu City'''. --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 23:50, 3 February 2015 (EST)
  
In anticipation of my return to Sin City in a few months I was going through my Vegas bookmarks and I noticed the Wikitravel entry. I remembered reading a few of the entertainment/shows entries and I realized that a few things didn't jive with what I had experienced in real life.  
+
:Have a look now, I removed a re-direct which seemed double, let me know if I missed anything that you wanted done. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:45, 4 February 2015 (EST)
  
When I went back to the website to confirm my suspicions - Sure enough, there they were!  
+
::[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=move&user=&page=Cebu+%28city%29&year=&month=-1&tagfilter= Thanks], Adzas! --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 00:00, 5 February 2015 (EST)
Numerous inaccuries, for example:  
+
  
Blue Man Group at the Venetian (they have since moved their show to the Monte Carlo)
+
==Listings Being Removed==
Bette Midler at Caesars Palace (her residency ended Jan. 2010)
+
Hello,  
Lance Burton at the Monte Carlo (his residency ended in Sept. 2010)
+
Fab Four Live at the V Theater in Planet Hollywood (the correct title of the show is Beatleshow!)
+
Viva Elvis at the Aria (closed in August)
+
Human Nature at the Imperial Palace (ended their residency in November, and the Imperial Palace is now know as the Quad)
+
  
nowhere did it mention the residencies of:
+
I have tried to add multiple hotel listings to this site and majority of them are being removed. I can give several examples if needed but I am not sure why some listings are staying while others are being removed. We follow the same pattern for each listing so it does not make sense that some are added while others are removed. All the contributor says is our listing was removed for not following the guidelines. We have read through your guidelines to make sure we follow what is outlined. Further, the site welcomes business owners to add their listing as outlined here - http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Welcome,_business_owners
Elton at Caesars Palace (his residency has since ended but was current at the time)
+
Shania Twain at Caesars Palace
+
I work at the Corporate offices so I have a team of individuals that are working to
Celine Dion at Caesars Palace
+
1) Clean up listings since we've changed URLs to many of our hotels. We have consolidated much of our properties into one site so that is the reason our URLs have changed. 
Rod Stewart at Caesars Palace
+
2) Work with individual hotel owners to make sure properties are up-to-date and help them out by offering support in certain areas such as what we are doing here.
Tim McGraw and Faith Hill at the Venetian
+
these are the most glaring ommissions
+
  
in addition:
+
If you link to an individual hotel owners site then we leave the link as is. If the hotel is not listed on the page, we then move forward adding a listing. This is our process. Any insights into why a lot of our listings are being removed would be appreciated. Thank you. <small>—The preceding [[Wikitravel:Using_discussion_pages#Discussion_page_formatting|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Buash|Buash]] ([[User_talk:Buash|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Buash|contribs]]) 18:58, 5 February 2015 (EST)</small>
  
Comedy Shows had only 2 listings (2 listings?!?!? I couldn't believe this! Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy (the venue has since changed) are the only 2 comedy shows in ALL of Las Vegas???)
+
:Thank you for reading the business guidelines and trying to be a good contributor. You may find that this is not the right venue for you, however. At its heart, Wikitravel is a resource by travelers for travelers - not by businesses for travelers. As such, we take a much wider view of what looks like "spam," and when a company or its marketing firm seeks to inundate our community-written pages with listing after listing that seeks to benefit itself rather than the community, you will find your listings get speedily deleted. The rules you read are a guideline. The spirit of the site is as I have stated. Hope that helps. [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 19:32, 5 February 2015 (EST)
not listed were: Brad Garrett's Comedy Club, Louie Anderson, George Wallace, Big Al's Comedy Club, The Improv at Harrah's, Wolf's Comedy Den, Riviera Comedy Club etc. etc.
+
:For what it's worth, I also would have deleted [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2283078 your] badly [[format]]ted listings (including [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2282349 the ones where you did not bother to log in]) that did not include [[pricing]] information.
 +
:IBobi is the boss here and what he says goes, but many ordinary contributors like myself like to adopt a carrot and stick approach: if you bother to actually read our [[MOS|Manual of Style]] (and other advice hyperlinked in blue) and to reply to messages left on your talk page (where it would have been perhaps more appropriate to post this), then it's human nature that editors may give you a bit more rope, eh? Let's be clear about this, there can be some synergy and mutual benefit, but the [[ttcf|traveller comes first]] and you need to do some serious reading - including how to add your signature to your posts on article discussion and talk pages such as this one ... --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 20:17, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
Tribute Shows did not list:
+
Thanks for the reply. I fully understand that travelers take precedence however, I doubt I am the first business to add a listing to the site. For example, on the page you pointed out [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2283078 your] badly [[format]]ted listings (including [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2282349 I noticed that all of the hotels listed in the Mid-Range section are linking to bitly links which go to hotelscombined.com. This is fully against your guidelines. Plus, they use bitly links which are usually used by SEO spammers. Anyways, I thank you for not removing my business owners hotel listing. Moving forward I will let business owners add there own listings to this site and hope you will allow them to add them. Thanks. --[[User:Buash]] ([[User talk:Buash|talk]]) 0940, 6 February 2015 (EST)
Frank Marino's Divas Las Vegas, MJ Live, Legends in Concert, Purple Reign: A Tribute to Prince, Dancing Queen, The Australian Bee Gees, Trent Carlini's the King, The Rat Pack is Back (there are currently over 4 Frank Sinatra and/or Rat Pack shows playing) etc. etc.
+
: Thank you for noticing the bitly links. I just removed them as they breach our [[External links]] policies. Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] ([[User talk:IBAlex|talk]]) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (EST)
  
Magic Shows did not list:
+
== Embassy policy ==
Jan Rouven, Mike Hammer, Nathan Burton, Seth Grabel, The Amazing Jonathon etc. etc.
+
  
Impressionist/impersonation shows did not list:
+
Including the list of embassies in the guide to a capital city of a large counties has not been thought through. For Washington and Beijing, there are far too many embassies. What are they doing there? Embassies serve the whole country, not the city. If I need an embassy, then I am not likely to already be in Washington or Beijing. What if I am in Nevada? I may need to go to a consulate, but where is the nearest consulate? Some will be in California and will be missed. For most countries no change is necessary as the capital is the only major city. For large countries, we should consider the traveller may be in real need of urgent consular assistance and unless they are already in the capital city, they will find the current system difficult.
Gordie Brown and veteran impersonator Rich Little!
+
  
You get the picture! The number of ommissions and innaccuracies was-and-is mind-boggling!
+
The other reason for change, is that the capital cities are mostly enormous cities already. These capital city articles do not need to be made longer by having pages of embassy information added to them. Also what about embassy districts? Would we repeat all the information and make it difficult to maintain? Let's make it easier to visit major capital cities.
Considering that Wikitravel's Main Page proclaims that it is a "complete, up-to-date and reliable worldwide travel guide" this is unfathomable!
+
  
At this point I decided to take it upon myself and sign up as a Wikitravel editor with the intention of becoming a "Las Vegas entertainment editor" of sorts and doing a thorough update of the "See" section (that's kind of funny actually).  
+
The appropriate policy for large countries (with more than 100 embassies) is as follows:
 +
  1.  Put all the embassies and consulate details of one country on a single page, and keep that page maintained.
 +
  2.  Provide a link to that page, from the country page, the capital city page, any city with consulates and any other page where a reader may look for consular assistance.
 +
  3.  Provide only non-consular information about embassies on the capital city and district pages. An embassy or an embassy district would be discussed as worth visiting for non-consular reasons, such as cultural centre or interesting architecture.
  
Anyway ...  
+
Ideally, this should developed into a policy.  
 +
[[User:Lawe|Lawe]] ([[User talk:Lawe|talk]]) 01:49, 10 February 2015 (EST)
  
I spent over a week researching and documenting the current shows as well as the concerts and special events (I'll get to this in a moment) ... and this is no mean feat ...
+
:This topic seems to be a bit overlooked which is a pity since it can lead to a valuable change in our pages and policies. I agree with [[User:Lawe|Lawe]], huge lists of embassies/consulates in a city's article aren't that useful and an "Embassy district" (or whatever we decide to call it) may be a good choice as well as having embassies/consulates pages for countries. I hope other users and Admins will join the discussion and share ideas. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 15:17, 23 February 2015 (EST)
To verify information required me to consult the venue's website, the performer's website, the authorized ticket agent's website and in some cases some entertainment revue sites. (I subscribe to dozens of Las Vegas tourism and entertainment guides and websites.)
+
  
Once I had compiled all the information, I went about adding the new entries to the appropriate categories and correcting any inaccuracies.  
+
::I totally agree with above, huge lists are not useful, so great [[User:Lawe|Lawe]] brought this up. However, I´m not sure yet what the value would be of different pages for each country with just lists of embassies, as we always say we don´t want wikitravel to become like the yellow pages. Many countries have a general link that lists embassies in that country, why not just add that one link (example http://www.government.nl/issues/embassies-consulates-and-other-representations), and just remove those long lists out of the articles? Either way, a change is definitely needed. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 18:15, 23 February 2015 (EST)
  
Once I was finished editing all the regular Las Vegas shows, I decided to tackle the concert listings knowing that this would be a very "hands on" endeavour requiring me to make edits on almost a daily basis.  
+
:::In some cities, embassies may be a tourist attraction. In [[Canberra]], countries use traditional architectures. In [[Beijing]], embassies must be in designated embassy districts. In [[Paris]], some embassies had cultural centres attached. [[User:Lawe|Lawe]] ([[User talk:Lawe|talk]]) 00:42, 24 February 2015 (EST)
  
I created a sub-heading titled "Concerts/Special Events" with 2 sub-headings under that titled "1 Night Only" and "Limited Engagement". I then started to populate the lists in chronological order based on all the information I had.
+
== Re: Wikitravel page User talk:VeritasVera has been created by IBilkka ==
  
Halfway through listing the events for December I see a notice at the top of my screen saying that "there was a conflict with some of my listings etc. etc". Upon checking my User talk page I see a message that says this:
+
Hello Wikitravel,
"I had to delete your contribution on Las Vegas page because we do not post one time events/ attractions in destination articles. Best, IBAlex 20:19, 30 November 2012 (EST)"
+
A few weeks ago I got an email from user IBilkka
 +
about me editing some text on the Kampala page..
 +
<nowiki>==========================================================================</nowiki>
  
I could not believe what I was seeing!
+
Hi VeritasVera! Welcome to Wikitravel. I adjusted your edit on the Kampala page (just formatting), but can you double check the url of the Consulate you added, it does not seem to work. To help you further contributing, we've created a quick contribution guide and a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. --
  
To omit "1 night only" or "limited engagement" concerts/special events from a Las Vegas entertainment listings is a travesty! Las Vegas is truly the entertainment capital of the world and to ignore this by not including these listings is doing the reader a huge dis-service. I personally, would book travel based on several of these events alone and I know this to be true for many others. There has to be an exception made for Vegas ... the concerts, shows and special events are what Las Vegas is all about! That in itself is what makes Las Vegas a travel destination! You can't apply standard rules as there is no place on the planet like this!
+
IBilkka (talk) 18:55, 18 January 2015 (EST)
 +
<nowiki>===========================================================================</nowiki>
  
This is a partial list of the concerts and special events for the month of December:
+
But the truth be said: I have never edited anything on this page.
Aerosmith & Cheap Trick, ZZ Top, Megadeth, The Eagles, Red Hot Chili Peppers, The Black Keys, Pitbull, The Killers, The O'Jays, Jerry Seinfeld, the Wayans Brothers, The Eagles, Jeff Dunham, UFC 155, The Ultimate Fighter Finale, The National Rodeo Finals, American Country Awards, Three Dog Night, Restless Heart, Mannheim Steamroller, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Train, Ron White, Bill Engvall, Dennis Miller & Bill O'Reilly, Journey & Loverboy, Merle Haggard, Lonestar, Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Márquez, Charlie Daniels Band, The Oak Ridge Boys, Randy Travis, LeAnn Rimes, 3 Doors Down & Daughtry, Moody Blues, Tanya Tucker, Travis Tritt, The Tragically Hip, Trace Adkins, Social Distortion, Dave Koz and many many more.
+
My only aditing was on the page with Bosnian Common Phrases.
  
So now, in addition to all the concert/special event listings being deleted, so are all my show updates and inclusions. All of my work is now GONE! Wiped out in one fell swoop by an all-knowing, all-mighty admin.  Hours and hours of work down the toilet!
+
Thanks.
 +
Kind regards to all!
 +
Veritas Vera
  
So, as of right now according to the Las Vegas WikiTravel page: Bette Midler, Lance Burton and Viva Elvis are still performing, while Shania Twain, Rod Stewart, Tim McGraw & Faith Hill and Celine Dion are not. Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy are the only 2 comedy shows in town. Dozens and dozens of shows and venues do not exist and there are no concerts playing in town at all whatsoever.
+
== Making Wikitravel Easier for Translators ==
  
It's a shame.
+
Hi all,
  
: I restored your edits; IMHO the deletion was bad judgement by an inexperienced admin. On the other hand, she had a point; WT is a travel guide; some of your listings may be too short-term to bother with and should be deleted as unmaintainable. Dicussion should go on the article's talk page. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 20:03, 1 December 2012 (EST)
+
I'm an amateur translator, with a few years of translation experience, mainly Japanese -> English, and I'm looking to fill in the gaps in some of the Wikitravel articles by translating them from better articles written in the local language. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and maybe everyone has been really efficient or something, because it's really difficult to find articles which need translating. I like to believe there are lots of articles out there written in someone's native language which would benefit more travellers by being translated to English, is there any way we can make an index for us translators?
  
I have committed myself to maintaining the short term edits. By tomorrow morning the concert listings dated December 1 will have been deleted. And so on and so on. I can appreciate how short-term listings might be termed "unmaintainable" by conventional thinking ... but ... Las Vegas is far from being a "conventional" travel destination. Thank you  [[User:Briank58|Briank58]] 20:17, 1 December 2012 (EST)
+
I would be willing to translate Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Russian or Spanish to English, but all the work needed to contribute this technical expertise is really daunting. Thanks! <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: HandsomeBoh|HandsomeBoh]] ([[User_talk: HandsomeBoh|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HandsomeBoh|contribs]]) </small>
  
 +
: Hello HandsomeBoh! Help is always welcome! We do have one tool that may meet your expectations, the http://wikitravel.org/en/Category:Articles_needing_translation page! Hope this will help, otherwise, feel free to ask! Happy translation! [[User:PierrB|PierrB]] ([[User talk:PierrB|talk]]) 22:17, 21 February 2015 (EST)
  
:Briank58- thank you for your notice. I would gladly address this problem. I am here to help users and I am open to any suggestions and discussions.
+
: I have seen that page, but it seems to have very few articles which need translating. Are you sure there aren't any others haha? <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: HandsomeBoh|HandsomeBoh]] ([[User_talk: HandsomeBoh|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HandsomeBoh|contribs]]) </small>
:Please know that your contribution on Las Vegas page is highly appreciated. I am glad to see that you understand that Wikitravel does not support short-time listings (especially 1 day listings) because it is difficult to maintain them. We do worry that when users post short-time listings on the site, they will not remove them once the listings become outdated. And this clearly is not beneficial for the site and the users... In this way, the site risks of becoming eventually cluttered with those outdated listings. That is why I removed your listings, leaving a message on your Talk Page to let you know that I did not mean anything bad. I was simply following the conventions.
+
:However, when I see that you are willing to upkeep the listings and remove some of them on daily basis, I am fine with keeping them there. Again, your contribution is extremely valuable to Las Vegas site, thank you for that. Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:32, 3 December 2012 (EST)
+
  
== Why are the Orbitz ads appearing on non-logged in users? ==
+
::Hi, great that you want to help with the articles! We don´t really work with a list at the moment of articles to translate, we just [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|plunge forward]] where we feel an article needs attention or needs translating. I am working on the dutch version where we just discuss with the users there and work on articles, and if I see a great article on the dutch version which is not yet complete on the english version, I would just work on that. Our main focus has been to improve existing articles so go ahead and jump in! Greatly appreciated! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 06:27, 22 February 2015 (EST)
  
''Disclaimer: I wrote the following without knowing that the feature was supposed to be opt-in''
 
: Case in point: [[Buenos Aires]], [[Hong Kong]], [[Paris]], and many other cities now have Orbitz banners in the header and the 'Get In' and 'Sleep' sections.
 
  
: I understand the need for more funding, but nobody will ever say "Oh, how convenient, now I can buy plane tickets while in the middle of reading a Wikitravel article". On its current state is useless at the best, and obtrusive at its worst.
+
== Inquiry about name change of article ==
  
: Sometimes this is extremely ridiculous: just look at the article on [[Orania]].
+
Hello,
  
For those reasons I think anyway that having it as an opt-out is a terrible idea. [[Special:Contributions/190.189.234.13|190.189.234.13]] 22:57, 1 December 2012 (EST)
+
I hope I'm doing this well. I would like an advice. I made a wiki page about my town Kaštela. Now I'm thinking if it's going to be a problem for people trying to find it, as the letter š is not really in use. So I would like to make it that if somebody searches for Kastela also arrives to Kaštela page. Any help?
:The announcement is in the section above at [[#Travel booking tool!]]. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 23:41, 1 December 2012 (EST)
+
  
::I know. But according to that announcement,
+
Thank you,  
:::If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
+
Gandor <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: Gandor|Gandor]] ([[User_talk: Gandor|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gandor|contribs]]) </small>
::These ads are appearing to me as a non-logged-in user, and the only way I found to disable them is
+
to log-in into an account, clearly making it opt-out.
+
::Was that change intentional? In that case it's a horrible decision IMO. [[Special:Contributions/190.189.234.13|190.189.234.13]] 11:37, 2 December 2012 (EST)
+
  
:This was discussed about a year ago and is one of the reasons why it is so quiet here. However ignoring question of whether a booking engine should be there, I find the implementation poor.
+
:'''Names''' If you want to know more about how this software works, you can check [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki's homepage] to get all the documentation. The quick answer is that anyone can easily make a redirect from [[Kastela]] to [[Kaštela]]. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 03:27, 24 February 2015 (EST)
:I tried the booking banner from the [[Aberdeen]] page, trying to find a flight to there from Manchester. The article said that there were direct flights, so that was what I was expecting to be offered, but I was only offered a flight via Amsterdam, requiring an overnight stay and costing $407 return. But at Orbitz's own site, I was offered direct flights on the same dates for $184 return. There is also no easy way of finding out who Orbitz is, or of changing the currency from dollars.
+
:Trying it on [[Orania]] gave the suggestion of Alexandria, which is a long distance away - the booking engine must know the correct airport for every page that it appears on.
+
:It would be better to have the booking banner on the right hand side, above the adverts. This also gives the possibility of getting local bus and train companies to offer booking. I doubt that I will be looking to book a flight here, but a way of booking the bus from the airport would be useful. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 18:18, 3 December 2012 (EST)
+
  
::Hi Alasdair -- I am looking into why the results are different. I tried the same search and got the same results you did. We're still working the kinks out and hope it can be a very useful tool indeed for our Wikitravelers. Please let me know if you see anything else that is suboptimal. Cheers, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 7 December 2012 (EST)
 
  
==New administrators nomination==
+
: Thank you very much Koavf. I don't know a lot about changing that stuff. I'm amateur. I really appreciate your help. :)
We have a new nomination for the administrator on Wikitravel. Please have a look at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations|Administrator nominations]]. Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 20:34, 3 December 2012 (EST)
+
Thank you once again,
 +
Gandor <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: Gandor|Gandor]] ([[User_talk: Gandor|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gandor|contribs]]) </small>
  
== Town of Rochester, New York ==
+
::It looks like Koavf already made a re-direct, so all will be able to find your town. Thanks for your contributions! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:48, 24 February 2015 (EST)
  
There is Town of Rochester (Ulster County) [http://www.ulstertourism.info/] in New York State which is different from the larger, more familiar City of Rochester (Monroe County) in New York State. How would I add (name) the Town of Rochester here? The two Rochesters are over a hundred miles apart, not related at all. [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 18:10, 8 December 2012 (EST)
+
==Banners are coming to every article!==
* Reference: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester,_Ulster_County,_New_York] Wikipedia
+
The Wikitravel team has been hard at work with the newest addition to the site, banner images on every page! The banners provide two major benefits:
 +
#They streamline the positioning of the table of contents on every article while respecting the various screen resolutions that are in use today.
 +
#They provide a beautiful hero image to kick off every article.
 +
We encourage all travelers to [[Wikitravel:Banner guidelines#Banner image guidelines|create new banners]] on articles that are still missing one and to [[Wikitravel:Banner guidelines#Updating an existing banner|suggest image updates]] on articles that do.
  
: Hi Gamweb! Thank you for your message. The best way is to create a page for Town of Rochester from the scratch since it doesn't exist here. Please have a look [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Town_of_Rochester&action=edit&redlink=1]. You would need to select the best template and just [[ Wikitravel: Plunge forward| plunge forward]]. Don't worry if you don't know how to fill out all the sections- someone will be along to help with it later! Once the page is created, we would need to create a '''Disambiguation Page''', similar to [[Boston (disambiguation)| this one]] so that nobody will get confused with the destination. Please let me know if there is anything else i can help with. Greetings, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:42, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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We hope you enjoy and as always please feel free to provide feedback below! [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 16:57, 5 March 2015 (EST)
  
::There is already a disambiguation page at [[Rochester]]. I would suggest [[Rochester_(Ulster_County)]] might be best, county names are often used when there is more than one place of the same name in a state / country. But it worth asking "what do people say locally?", when buying a bus ticket to the town from the other side of the state, as this may suggest a better name. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 18:47, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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: The team may indeed have been hard at work but the idea came from that Other Wiki and so did the actual template, withour proper attribution. You (specifically [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] who uploaded it) need to either add attribution to comply with the CC-by-SA license or delete the file. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 05:02, 6 March 2015 (EST)
  
:::Nice!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:49, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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::::I do not know of any legal jurisdiction where ''ideas'' (as opposed to their novel implementation) are legally protected intellectual property. You're correct that copying the ''code'' of a WikiMedia Foundation template without proper attribution is a copyright infringement in most material jurisdictions. However, IBcaldera may have a plea in mitigation that appropriate attribution is mechanically prevented here by the various filters that are in place.
 +
::::To me what is more important is that the banners have been implemented in an even worse way than at that ''other place''.
 +
::::There's certainly an argument to be had that large images at the top of every article give a fresh and brighter feel to our guide (the downside being that there is no switch for logged in users who are on slow or expensive connections to turn them off - as they can do with the adverts).
 +
::::However, it's pretty stupid to then go and uglify them by plonking a (defective and deficient) horizontal mini table of contents in their lower part.
 +
::::(Was this a conscious decision or just the inadvertent result of unthinking plagiarism?)
 +
::::It's then adding insult to injury to configure the template so that it irredeemably prevents a proper multi-level ToC from being displayed even if the magic word of <code><nowiki>__TOC__</nowiki></code> is used to try and force the display of the multilevel table of contents that is often needed for effective copyediting or efficient use. [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 07:57, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
  
== [[Wikitravel:Requested articles| Requested articles]]==
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::Hello. Encouragement to create banners is interesting to me - but how can i look at the existing banners, other than on corresponding articles? Eg, i have checked  [http://wikitravel.org/shared/File:Lithuania_Banner.jpg this one] and it has no its location (directory) on WT Shared. It looks like pending somewhere in the space. It is relevant to look at the existing banners before starting to create new or replace existing ones. Or did i miss something? And if i create the new one for some article - i assume i have to upload it to WT Shared, so do i need it to post on that article's talk page to make it available for admin review? I'm not entirely confident that my banner will be 100% suitable, at least technically, so i'd like to show it to admin first. Once i uploaded it to WT Shared i can show it. Isn't it enough, should i upload it to talk page too? I'm a regular user and am quite ignoramus, all i'm asking about is probably supposed to go without saying, but how i'm supposed to know those things if nobody tells them? :) . Most of the problems I face here is that i don't know almost all things that go without saying. --[[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 05:00, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
User Blist has recently created a [[Wikitravel:Requested articles| page]] with a list of requested articles that still don't exist on Wikitravel. Please [[Wikitravel: Plunge_forward| plunge forward]] and help us grow! Looking forward to your contributions! Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:13, 11 December 2012 (EST)
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== New Page - Kerhonkson ==
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== Banners! ==
 +
Hi!
 +
Your banners are really nice, but regrettably, there can be errors.
 +
If you look at Surat Thani in Thailand, and Surat in India you will find that both have the same banner!!!!!!
 +
Please rectify!
 +
[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 06:40, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
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:Hey, Avemarino! Thanks for the feedback! I've updated the banners on [[Surat Thani]] and [[Surat]] now. [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 15:59, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
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::"Beautiful banners are coming to every article" - but is it worth the collateral damage of losing the table of contents in Country articles? [[Special:Contributions/118.101.50.144|118.101.50.144]] 20:17, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
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:::Absolutely Not! See what happens to itineraries: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=One_week_in_Sydney&oldid=2313525. It's ridiculous.
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:::By all means have a standout, panorama style image at the top of some articles, but keep a working table of contents! [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 14:54, 16 May 2015 (EDT)
  
I just created new page for [[Kerhonkson]], New York. It's been a while since I made a new page. Please look it over to see what's missing. (Auxiliary wikilinks) [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 22:48, 12 December 2012 (EST)
 
: Great job! Thank you! I needed to change the headline "Go next" to "Get out" because that's still the proper name Wikitravel uses for this section. We would be changing this headline soon throughout all the articles. I'm looking forward to more contributions from you. Thank you again! Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:10, 13 December 2012 (EST)
 
::Sorry about that. I was working in "parallel" with another travel site at the same time (enough said). [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 16:04, 13 December 2012 (EST)
 
:::No worries. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 16:35, 13 December 2012 (EST)
 
* [[Ellenville]], near Kerhonkson. Give it a look over. I still have to add some photos. [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 23:18, 16 December 2012 (EST)
 
: Page looks great! Are there any other destinations you are planning to work at? Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 16:39, 17 December 2012 (EST)
 
  
==[[Wikitravel: Usable articles]]==
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==Linkspam==
Here is a list of articles that have been [[Wikitravel:Status rating | rated]] as '''Usable''' and need some attention. Please feel free to [[plunge forward| plunge forward]] and add some information. If you think that some of the articles shouldn't be there, please let us know.  See [[Wikitravel:Article status| this page]] for a description of what qualifies an article for different statuses. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:32, 17 December 2012 (EST)
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Please would someone who has the relevant tools revert the self-serving  [[Special:Contributions/77.107.90.82|recent '''edits from the IP address of 77.107.90.82''']]?<br /> [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 11:57, 18 May 2015 (EDT)
  
== Some and some ==
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:Mmmm, does nobody with admin privileges read here or wish to respond?
 +
:Surely this page should be on their watch lists - or is there another page that they read? [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 12:20, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
  
I already run seahouseswebsite.co.uk for my community.  I made half a dozen or so edits to the Wikitravel page about Seahouses but what now appears on-line includes only '''some''' of those edits - in some cases leaving ungrammatical sentences.  What did I do wrong?  Should I try again or is there some reason why my edits were edited?
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:: Hi! Thanks for your message! Edits from this user have been removed yesterday and IP 77.107.90.82 has been blocked yesterday as well by our admin IBcaldera. Thanks again for keeping an eye on edits in this community! Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] ([[User talk:IBAlex|talk]]) 13:57, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
  
My edits included a reference to the Farne Islands.  No Wikitravel page existed so I've just written one but I'm quite sure it needs proper formatting etc.
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::Hey there, forgot to reply - handled it yesterday. Thanks for the heads up! [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 14:06, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
  
Ideally can someone respond to mike@seahouseswebsite.co.uk?
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:::Thanks for your response and effective action.
[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 09:47, 18 December 2012 (EST)
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:::Is this the best place for these kind of alerts to be made, please? [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 20:21, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
 +
::::'''Spamming''' I didn't respond because IBcaldera had already reverted it and blocked the IP--I figured that addressed your concern. Please feel free to post here. Thanks. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 00:43, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
 +
:::::Thanks for your reply [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Koavf Justin] - I'll assume it means that there is no "''admins' noticeboard''" or similar on this Wiki and, unfortunately, this is the best place for these kind of alerts to be made. [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 06:26, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
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::::::Yep! I'd say this is the best place. It was definitely just my goof to not come back to confirm the changes were reverted/deleted. [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 14:03, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
  
:Dear Bonniedougall! Some of the edits you made had to be deleted because you inserted too many external links on [[Seahouses| one page]] (there were 10 links leading to the same domain). Please read our [[Wikitravel:External links| external links policies]] to get more information. A couple of links on a page is ok but it is not our aim on Wikitravel to fill up the articles with external links. Anyone reading [[Seahouses]] article will see the link even if it's only one. I hope you understand.
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==Any guidelines on including names and emails of people?==
: I also noticed that you created [[Farne Islands]] page. We already had a page about Farne Islands, please have a [[The Farne Islands|look]]. That is why I need to ask you to merge the information on the page you created with the existing one. We do not duplicate pages on Wikitravel. Thank you! Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:22, 18 December 2012 (EST)
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OK Alex, I've had another go which should be more compliant.  And I'm suggesting that the page entitled THE Farne Islands should be scrapped.[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 06:34, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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Hello Wikitravelers,
: Bonniedougall- would you mind putting a template on the [[Farne Islands]] page you created? The page would look nicer and more organized. In this way I would be able to delete [[The Farne Islands]]. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 11:35, 20 December 2012 (EST)
+
  
== Lindisfarne ==
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I added a Volunteer section under [[Auroville]] yesterday, since there were a bunch of projects we discovered when we went there last year. But I'm not sure if I should be adding people's names and email ids there. If it's alright to add the email ids, should we put it in text form or as a mailto link on the person's name?
  
Having mentioned the Holy Island of Lindisfarne on 'my' Seahouses page, and there having been no Holy Island of Lindisfarne page, I have created one - ready for the Lindisfarne folk to develop.  So I have left an email with them, at[http://www.holy-island.info/], drawing their attention to the matter.
+
Thanks!
[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 08:47, 20 December 2012 (EST)
+
  
: There is a Lindisfarne page aleady. I made yours a redirect to that. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:56, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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:Sounds like a nice section and I don't believe there would be an issue(we officially allow listings to include email addresses). But I would avoid placing both first '''and''' last names just for identification purposes. Maybe just first name is enough? [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 14:35, 13 August 2015 (EDT)
  
==Improvement Ideas==
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:Best to avoid the "mailto"  syntax since it doesn't work for some and annoys others. --[[Special:Contributions/46.208.252.202|46.208.252.202]] 09:19, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
We are planning to revitalize Wikitravel and our community! In 2013 we would like to improve technicality and usability of the site and we are open to any ideas! Please let us know of any new features you would like to have on WT and share with us your suggestions on how to make Wikitravel better. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 14:20, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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:Please list the appropriate pages to make suggestions. --[[Special:Contributions/118.93.73.30|118.93.73.30]] 03:16, 2 January 2013 (EST)
+
  
==Policy on free-riding tips==
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::Personal emails are usually removed from the articles, keep that in mind, we usually allow listings of official businesses and emails, that are located in the respective location, but don´t include personal contact details. If a person wants to be found contact info can be added to the User page of that person, as long as it is not just meant for advertising purposes. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 15:50, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
I got some second thoughts about deleting tips on how to evade a station entrance fee in Stockholm-Arlanda Airport: [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Stockholm&action=historysubmit&diff=1972045&oldid=1971916 Link to change log] What is Wikitravel's policy for riding transports, or entering venues, without a proper ticket? Is it a no-no, or are there circumstances when such information is allowed? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 19:12, 23 December 2012 (EST)
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:There is an [[Wikitravel:Illegal_activities_policy]]. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 19:14, 26 December 2012 (EST)
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:Based on the above policy I'd say it's clear that info should be deleted. It could be argued as acceptable e.g. if there's an official requirement to pay for a ticket but everybody ignores it and it isn't controlled or sanctioned - falling somewhat loosely under "Where police or public corruption mean that the written law of the land differs substantially from the practise of law enforcement." Maaaybe applicable in this case if all local U-30 people do it. [[User:Berserk|Berserk]] 23:36, 26 December 2012 (EST)
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:: Related is [[Gävle]], where I saw the need to point out that burning the Gävle Goat is illegal, since the goats have been burnt down by foreign travellers, who were deceived by locals to commit the act, with legal consequences. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 15:50, 27 December 2012 (EST)
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Latest revision as of 19:54, 16 August 2015

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

  • If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

Please sweep the pub Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. dormant for a month or more) that could or should be moved to another page, please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.

  • A question regarding a destination article should be swept to that article's discussion page
  • A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to that policy or expedition discussion page
  • A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
  • A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old. Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to where the main discussion took place.

Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, leave it alone—it's better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.



Country's official name and type of government[edit]

It seems that I and User:Ttcf have reached an impasse. Ttcf argues that adding the correct type of government to the infobox and adding the official name of a country in the article will make Wikitravel more like a inferior version of Wikipedia. While I argue that it will not, and if so, what about the infobox? If adding the official name and correct type of government will make Wikitravel more like Wikipedia, than the infobox shouldn't be in the articles about countries. And then the official name, adding the countries actual name like say adding officialy, Nation of Brunei, the Abode of Peace to the article about Brunei will make WT more like WP? It's not like I'm adding the countries leader(s) or defence budget to the article. Seqqis (talk) 18:19, 30 November 2014 (EST)

I think that this may well boil down to a question of tone.
I see that you are very active and experienced at Wikipedia but that encourages dry, encyclopaedic writing.
We're a Travel Guide and should write our articles from the point of view of the traveller. We're enjoined to ""Be conversational and informal when writing articles", and told that "Lively writing is welcome. The requirement of being fair should not be taken to mean that all writing must be bland and encyclopaedic. Wikitravel should celebrate travel, and you should feel free to share the adventure and excitement of the journey and the destination through your writing. For example, North Korea's human rights situation can and should be summed up as an "Orwellian nightmare", as opposed to noting that "some organizations have expressed concern about less than full compliance to international human rights standards, a charge vigorously denied by the Foreign Ministry.""
I do indeed think that
a) it's impossible to encapsulate most country's governmental systems in a few short words appropriate to our quickbar
b) trying to do so leads to endless unproductive tussles
c} most travellers are sincerely and resolutely uninterested in whether France is a "Unitary semi-presidential constitutional republic" rather than just a common or garden variety republic. (Is there any governement that claims to operate a "non-constitutional republic"?) For those that are interested we can add the information lower down in the "Understand" section.
d) we should remove the "governement" category from the quickbar (and perhaps replace it with something succinct and factual and possibly of more interest to the traveller such as the number of murders per 100,000 residents per year or the number of overseas visitors per year or just shorten the length of the quickbar altogether by leaving one less entry...)
None of the information you keep adding to various articles is being expunged. It's just that some of the stuff about the legal drinking age for alcohol or soliciting prostitutes or screwing the locals or whether France is currently on it's Fifth Republic, deserves a different prominence lower down in the body of the article rather than as the first thing that socks you in the eye when you start reading. (And please remember that the quickbar is all you get to read in the Mobile version unless you open other headings!)
While I have this opportunity, I also sincerely doubt that most practical travellers give a hoot about what languages are "Official" (Māori is the name of a people and not their language) and which are not -they just want to know what to expect. While it may be amusing to know that England and the US have no official language (no, not even their respective versions of English) and that New Zealand has Te Reo as an official language, what's really important in a travel guide is that English should get you by in all three. These kind of interesting tidbits about quirks of language and constitutional arrangements belong in the body text - not usually in the opening paragraphs (technically our H1 heading, and what search engines give most importance to).
Do you really think that an opening of
France (Officialy the French Republic) is a country located in Western Europe. Clockwise from the north, France borders Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany to the northeast, Switzerland to the east, Italy to the south-east and Spain to the south-west, across the Pyrenees mountain range (the small country of Andorra lies in between the two countries). The Mediterranean Sea lies to the south of France, with the Principality of Monaco forming a small enclave. To the west, France has a long Atlantic Ocean coastline, while to the north lies the English Channel, across which lies the last of France's neighbours, England (part of the United Kingdom). In the Carribean, France borders the Netherlands via the French territory of Saint-Martin which borders the Dutch territory of Sint Maarten. Five oversea regions also form part of France: Martinique and Guadeloupe in the Caribbean, French Guiana in South America, and Reunion and Mayotte, both off the coast of Madagascar. Numerous French oversea territories also exist around the Earth with varying status.
(complete with TWO spelling mistakes) is better for a travel guide than
France is the country that more people enjoy visiting than any other.
France is geographically one of the most diverse countries in Europe. Its cities contain some of the greatest treasures in Europe, its countryside is prosperous and well tended and it boasts dozens of major tourist attractions, like Paris, the French Riviera, the Atlantic beaches, the winter sport resorts of the French Alps, the castles of the Loire Valley, Brittany and Normandy. France is renowned for its gastronomy (particularly wines and cheeses), history, culture and fashion.
when the "missing" information about France bordering the Netherlands and Madagascar can still be found further down the page?
Please remember that most of our country pages were seeded by material being imported from the CIA Fact Book, and in many of them that US centric, what's-important-for-preserving-diplomatic-relations-or-for-invasion purpose still shows - right down to the formulaic and often imprecise "the country" scattered throughout many articles. The lead paragraphs for most countries are well overdue a complete re-write. --Ttcf (talk) 19:04, 30 November 2014 (EST)
The govt info line should be deleted from the quickbar template. We can't do it well in just a word or two and attempting the impossible just leads to edit wars - we should leave that sort of stuff to Wikipedia - especially since all of our country articles are already linked to the relevant Wikipedia article. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 07:18, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Additional information for images[edit]

Is there a suggested maximum length for a caption?

If the caption says it all, should the description repeat the caption or be left blank?

If the credit and the source would be identical should the source repeat the credit or be left blank?

Should credit be to Wikitravel ID or full name of photographer? Assuming work is being uploaded by the photographer. —The preceding comment was added by MichaelRpdx (talkcontribs)

Photos It may seem pedantic but the traveller comes first: is the caption you want to write more useful than blank space? There is no technical limit on photo captions as far as I'm aware but more than a few dozen words would probably not be useful. A caption shouldn't replace a listing and there will definitely be information that a caption would never include (like a fax number). Sourcing a photo shouldn't necessarily be the same as the credit but if they are, it's fine to put the same info. As far as credits in the caption of an article, it's probably irrelevant to most travellers who took a photo, so you could probably omit that. Koavf (talk) 12:08, 19 January 2015 (EST)

Right, OK, that clarifies the length of caption question. To clarify my question, it refers to the fields of the template one fills out when uploading an image.

Captions I don't want to be dismissive, so please don't read it this way but go for it: just try out whatever you think is best and let us know if it won't display properly or if it seems like it might be a problem. For what it's worth, I think you're doing a great job so far and you can always ask any question you want here. Koavf (talk) 12:26, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Hi, I also just left you a message on Wikitravel Shared, happy to help further if needed. Adzas (talk) 12:40, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Koavf, understood, you did not come across as dismissive at all. This falls into the "but my English isn't so good" realm. Do what you think fits and other people will come in and adjust as needed.—The preceding comment was added by MichaelRpdx (talkcontribs)

Misuse of Template:Warningbox[edit]

THere is an increasing tendency to misuse this template and cry Wolf too often and in too many places.

This is hardly surprising since both the strategic and practical advice about how to include governmental advisories at Template:Warningbox/doc is NOT linked or displayed on the actual template page itself!

I would edit the template myself - except that it has been locked so that only admins can edit it. --222.127.76.207 00:02, 24 January 2015 (EST)

BUMP! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2015 (EST)

I´m not sure what exactly you want to add to the template, as both the template page and the doc page seem to have the same information? Adzas (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2015 (EST)
I currently see this when I look at Template:Warningbox :

This template is meant for non-obvious dangers to life and limb, and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:

  • "civil war in this region"
  • "devastated by earthquake last week"
  • "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
  • "death penalty for marijuana possession"

Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).

Do not use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").

If the danger affects the entire region, the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localized or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".

Whereas if the documentation at Template:Warningbox/doc was being properly included and displayed, I would see much more, ie:

When to use[edit]

This template is meant for non-obvious dangers to life and limb, and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:

  • "civil war in this region"
  • "devastated by earthquake last week"
  • "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
  • "death penalty for marijuana possession"

Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).

Do not use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").

How to use[edit]

If the danger affects the entire region, the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localised or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".

The warning message should be placed after the | in the template.

To add advisories, insert the full and direct URLs of a particular government's country-specific information into the available country parameters: australia, canada, india, ireland, nz, southafrica, uk, us

Example: {{warningbox|March 2013: a large number of strikes and protests took place across the country in response to the trials of alleged war criminals. Both supporters and detractors of the accused are in civil disobedience campaigns. Strikes frequently turned violent, with over 60 people killed. Monitor local news for updates and try to avoid large crowds and protests. |australia=http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Bangladesh |canada=http://travel.gc.ca/destinations/bangladesh |ireland=http://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/a-z-list-of-countries/bangladesh/ |nz=http://www.safetravel.govt.nz/destinations/bangladesh.shtml |uk=http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/bangladesh |us=http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html }}

Travel advisories[edit]

This template allows the addition of Government travel advisories. The following links may help find URLs of official advisories:

--Babaying balikbayan (talk) 20:26, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Recommendation that tout be blocked for 1 day[edit]

Despite several warnings at User talk:Candyline, this hotel marketeer has neither replied nor modified their touting behaviour. I recommend they be blocked for 24h as a "heads-up" not to ignore established and clear written policy on marketing campaign codes in URLs]. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 23:08, 3 February 2015 (EST)

Thanks, Binbin! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 06:58, 4 February 2015 (EST)

Cebu City[edit]

Please would someone with admin privileges delete the blocking re-direct and move the page name to the most common name in the English language ((and the name already in use in many of our articles): Cebu City. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2015 (EST)

Have a look now, I removed a re-direct which seemed double, let me know if I missed anything that you wanted done. Adzas (talk) 09:45, 4 February 2015 (EST)
Thanks, Adzas! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Listings Being Removed[edit]

Hello,

I have tried to add multiple hotel listings to this site and majority of them are being removed. I can give several examples if needed but I am not sure why some listings are staying while others are being removed. We follow the same pattern for each listing so it does not make sense that some are added while others are removed. All the contributor says is our listing was removed for not following the guidelines. We have read through your guidelines to make sure we follow what is outlined. Further, the site welcomes business owners to add their listing as outlined here - http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Welcome,_business_owners

I work at the Corporate offices so I have a team of individuals that are working to 1) Clean up listings since we've changed URLs to many of our hotels. We have consolidated much of our properties into one site so that is the reason our URLs have changed. 2) Work with individual hotel owners to make sure properties are up-to-date and help them out by offering support in certain areas such as what we are doing here.

If you link to an individual hotel owners site then we leave the link as is. If the hotel is not listed on the page, we then move forward adding a listing. This is our process. Any insights into why a lot of our listings are being removed would be appreciated. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buash (talkcontribs) 18:58, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Thank you for reading the business guidelines and trying to be a good contributor. You may find that this is not the right venue for you, however. At its heart, Wikitravel is a resource by travelers for travelers - not by businesses for travelers. As such, we take a much wider view of what looks like "spam," and when a company or its marketing firm seeks to inundate our community-written pages with listing after listing that seeks to benefit itself rather than the community, you will find your listings get speedily deleted. The rules you read are a guideline. The spirit of the site is as I have stated. Hope that helps. IBobi (talk) 19:32, 5 February 2015 (EST)
For what it's worth, I also would have deleted your badly formatted listings (including the ones where you did not bother to log in) that did not include pricing information.
IBobi is the boss here and what he says goes, but many ordinary contributors like myself like to adopt a carrot and stick approach: if you bother to actually read our Manual of Style (and other advice hyperlinked in blue) and to reply to messages left on your talk page (where it would have been perhaps more appropriate to post this), then it's human nature that editors may give you a bit more rope, eh? Let's be clear about this, there can be some synergy and mutual benefit, but the traveller comes first and you need to do some serious reading - including how to add your signature to your posts on article discussion and talk pages such as this one ... --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Thanks for the reply. I fully understand that travelers take precedence however, I doubt I am the first business to add a listing to the site. For example, on the page you pointed out your badly formatted listings (including [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2282349 I noticed that all of the hotels listed in the Mid-Range section are linking to bitly links which go to hotelscombined.com. This is fully against your guidelines. Plus, they use bitly links which are usually used by SEO spammers. Anyways, I thank you for not removing my business owners hotel listing. Moving forward I will let business owners add there own listings to this site and hope you will allow them to add them. Thanks. --User:Buash (talk) 0940, 6 February 2015 (EST)

Thank you for noticing the bitly links. I just removed them as they breach our External links policies. Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (EST)

Embassy policy[edit]

Including the list of embassies in the guide to a capital city of a large counties has not been thought through. For Washington and Beijing, there are far too many embassies. What are they doing there? Embassies serve the whole country, not the city. If I need an embassy, then I am not likely to already be in Washington or Beijing. What if I am in Nevada? I may need to go to a consulate, but where is the nearest consulate? Some will be in California and will be missed. For most countries no change is necessary as the capital is the only major city. For large countries, we should consider the traveller may be in real need of urgent consular assistance and unless they are already in the capital city, they will find the current system difficult.

The other reason for change, is that the capital cities are mostly enormous cities already. These capital city articles do not need to be made longer by having pages of embassy information added to them. Also what about embassy districts? Would we repeat all the information and make it difficult to maintain? Let's make it easier to visit major capital cities.

The appropriate policy for large countries (with more than 100 embassies) is as follows:

  1.  Put all the embassies and consulate details of one country on a single page, and keep that page maintained.
  2.  Provide a link to that page, from the country page, the capital city page, any city with consulates and any other page where a reader may look for consular assistance.
  3.  Provide only non-consular information about embassies on the capital city and district pages. An embassy or an embassy district would be discussed as worth visiting for non-consular reasons, such as cultural centre or interesting architecture.

Ideally, this should developed into a policy. Lawe (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2015 (EST)

This topic seems to be a bit overlooked which is a pity since it can lead to a valuable change in our pages and policies. I agree with Lawe, huge lists of embassies/consulates in a city's article aren't that useful and an "Embassy district" (or whatever we decide to call it) may be a good choice as well as having embassies/consulates pages for countries. I hope other users and Admins will join the discussion and share ideas. GiulioC (talk) 15:17, 23 February 2015 (EST)
I totally agree with above, huge lists are not useful, so great Lawe brought this up. However, I´m not sure yet what the value would be of different pages for each country with just lists of embassies, as we always say we don´t want wikitravel to become like the yellow pages. Many countries have a general link that lists embassies in that country, why not just add that one link (example http://www.government.nl/issues/embassies-consulates-and-other-representations), and just remove those long lists out of the articles? Either way, a change is definitely needed. Adzas (talk) 18:15, 23 February 2015 (EST)
In some cities, embassies may be a tourist attraction. In Canberra, countries use traditional architectures. In Beijing, embassies must be in designated embassy districts. In Paris, some embassies had cultural centres attached. Lawe (talk) 00:42, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Re: Wikitravel page User talk:VeritasVera has been created by IBilkka[edit]

Hello Wikitravel, A few weeks ago I got an email from user IBilkka about me editing some text on the Kampala page... ==========================================================================

Hi VeritasVera! Welcome to Wikitravel. I adjusted your edit on the Kampala page (just formatting), but can you double check the url of the Consulate you added, it does not seem to work. To help you further contributing, we've created a quick contribution guide and a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. --

IBilkka (talk) 18:55, 18 January 2015 (EST) ===========================================================================

But the truth be said: I have never edited anything on this page. My only aditing was on the page with Bosnian Common Phrases.

Thanks. Kind regards to all! Veritas Vera

Making Wikitravel Easier for Translators[edit]

Hi all,

I'm an amateur translator, with a few years of translation experience, mainly Japanese -> English, and I'm looking to fill in the gaps in some of the Wikitravel articles by translating them from better articles written in the local language. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and maybe everyone has been really efficient or something, because it's really difficult to find articles which need translating. I like to believe there are lots of articles out there written in someone's native language which would benefit more travellers by being translated to English, is there any way we can make an index for us translators?

I would be willing to translate Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Russian or Spanish to English, but all the work needed to contribute this technical expertise is really daunting. Thanks! —The preceding comment was added by HandsomeBoh (talkcontribs)

Hello HandsomeBoh! Help is always welcome! We do have one tool that may meet your expectations, the http://wikitravel.org/en/Category:Articles_needing_translation page! Hope this will help, otherwise, feel free to ask! Happy translation! PierrB (talk) 22:17, 21 February 2015 (EST)
I have seen that page, but it seems to have very few articles which need translating. Are you sure there aren't any others haha? —The preceding comment was added by HandsomeBoh (talkcontribs)
Hi, great that you want to help with the articles! We don´t really work with a list at the moment of articles to translate, we just plunge forward where we feel an article needs attention or needs translating. I am working on the dutch version where we just discuss with the users there and work on articles, and if I see a great article on the dutch version which is not yet complete on the english version, I would just work on that. Our main focus has been to improve existing articles so go ahead and jump in! Greatly appreciated! Adzas (talk) 06:27, 22 February 2015 (EST)


Inquiry about name change of article[edit]

Hello,

I hope I'm doing this well. I would like an advice. I made a wiki page about my town Kaštela. Now I'm thinking if it's going to be a problem for people trying to find it, as the letter š is not really in use. So I would like to make it that if somebody searches for Kastela also arrives to Kaštela page. Any help?

Thank you, Gandor —The preceding comment was added by Gandor (talkcontribs)

Names If you want to know more about how this software works, you can check MediaWiki's homepage to get all the documentation. The quick answer is that anyone can easily make a redirect from Kastela to Kaštela. Koavf (talk) 03:27, 24 February 2015 (EST)


Thank you very much Koavf. I don't know a lot about changing that stuff. I'm amateur. I really appreciate your help. :)

Thank you once again, Gandor —The preceding comment was added by Gandor (talkcontribs)

It looks like Koavf already made a re-direct, so all will be able to find your town. Thanks for your contributions! Adzas (talk) 09:48, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Banners are coming to every article![edit]

The Wikitravel team has been hard at work with the newest addition to the site, banner images on every page! The banners provide two major benefits:

  1. They streamline the positioning of the table of contents on every article while respecting the various screen resolutions that are in use today.
  2. They provide a beautiful hero image to kick off every article.

We encourage all travelers to create new banners on articles that are still missing one and to suggest image updates on articles that do.

We hope you enjoy and as always please feel free to provide feedback below! IBcaldera (talk) 16:57, 5 March 2015 (EST)

The team may indeed have been hard at work but the idea came from that Other Wiki and so did the actual template, withour proper attribution. You (specifically IBcaldera who uploaded it) need to either add attribution to comply with the CC-by-SA license or delete the file. Pashley (talk) 05:02, 6 March 2015 (EST)
I do not know of any legal jurisdiction where ideas (as opposed to their novel implementation) are legally protected intellectual property. You're correct that copying the code of a WikiMedia Foundation template without proper attribution is a copyright infringement in most material jurisdictions. However, IBcaldera may have a plea in mitigation that appropriate attribution is mechanically prevented here by the various filters that are in place.
To me what is more important is that the banners have been implemented in an even worse way than at that other place.
There's certainly an argument to be had that large images at the top of every article give a fresh and brighter feel to our guide (the downside being that there is no switch for logged in users who are on slow or expensive connections to turn them off - as they can do with the adverts).
However, it's pretty stupid to then go and uglify them by plonking a (defective and deficient) horizontal mini table of contents in their lower part.
(Was this a conscious decision or just the inadvertent result of unthinking plagiarism?)
It's then adding insult to injury to configure the template so that it irredeemably prevents a proper multi-level ToC from being displayed even if the magic word of __TOC__ is used to try and force the display of the multilevel table of contents that is often needed for effective copyediting or efficient use. 78.151.195.227 07:57, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Hello. Encouragement to create banners is interesting to me - but how can i look at the existing banners, other than on corresponding articles? Eg, i have checked this one and it has no its location (directory) on WT Shared. It looks like pending somewhere in the space. It is relevant to look at the existing banners before starting to create new or replace existing ones. Or did i miss something? And if i create the new one for some article - i assume i have to upload it to WT Shared, so do i need it to post on that article's talk page to make it available for admin review? I'm not entirely confident that my banner will be 100% suitable, at least technically, so i'd like to show it to admin first. Once i uploaded it to WT Shared i can show it. Isn't it enough, should i upload it to talk page too? I'm a regular user and am quite ignoramus, all i'm asking about is probably supposed to go without saying, but how i'm supposed to know those things if nobody tells them? :) . Most of the problems I face here is that i don't know almost all things that go without saying. --Local (talk) 05:00, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

Banners![edit]

Hi! Your banners are really nice, but regrettably, there can be errors. If you look at Surat Thani in Thailand, and Surat in India you will find that both have the same banner!!!!!! Please rectify! Avemario (talk) 06:40, 28 April 2015 (EDT)

Hey, Avemarino! Thanks for the feedback! I've updated the banners on Surat Thani and Surat now. IBcaldera (talk) 15:59, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
"Beautiful banners are coming to every article" - but is it worth the collateral damage of losing the table of contents in Country articles? 118.101.50.144 20:17, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
Absolutely Not! See what happens to itineraries: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=One_week_in_Sydney&oldid=2313525. It's ridiculous.
By all means have a standout, panorama style image at the top of some articles, but keep a working table of contents! 78.151.195.227 14:54, 16 May 2015 (EDT)


Linkspam[edit]

Please would someone who has the relevant tools revert the self-serving recent edits from the IP address of 77.107.90.82?
78.151.195.227 11:57, 18 May 2015 (EDT)

Mmmm, does nobody with admin privileges read here or wish to respond?
Surely this page should be on their watch lists - or is there another page that they read? 78.151.195.227 12:20, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Hi! Thanks for your message! Edits from this user have been removed yesterday and IP 77.107.90.82 has been blocked yesterday as well by our admin IBcaldera. Thanks again for keeping an eye on edits in this community! Warm regards, IBAlex (talk) 13:57, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Hey there, forgot to reply - handled it yesterday. Thanks for the heads up! IBcaldera (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Thanks for your response and effective action.
Is this the best place for these kind of alerts to be made, please? 78.151.195.227 20:21, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Spamming I didn't respond because IBcaldera had already reverted it and blocked the IP--I figured that addressed your concern. Please feel free to post here. Thanks. Koavf (talk) 00:43, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Thanks for your reply Justin - I'll assume it means that there is no "admins' noticeboard" or similar on this Wiki and, unfortunately, this is the best place for these kind of alerts to be made. 78.151.195.227 06:26, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Yep! I'd say this is the best place. It was definitely just my goof to not come back to confirm the changes were reverted/deleted. IBcaldera (talk) 14:03, 20 May 2015 (EDT)

Any guidelines on including names and emails of people?[edit]

Hello Wikitravelers,

I added a Volunteer section under Auroville yesterday, since there were a bunch of projects we discovered when we went there last year. But I'm not sure if I should be adding people's names and email ids there. If it's alright to add the email ids, should we put it in text form or as a mailto link on the person's name?

Thanks!

Sounds like a nice section and I don't believe there would be an issue(we officially allow listings to include email addresses). But I would avoid placing both first and last names just for identification purposes. Maybe just first name is enough? IBcaldera (talk) 14:35, 13 August 2015 (EDT)
Best to avoid the "mailto" syntax since it doesn't work for some and annoys others. --46.208.252.202 09:19, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
Personal emails are usually removed from the articles, keep that in mind, we usually allow listings of official businesses and emails, that are located in the respective location, but don´t include personal contact details. If a person wants to be found contact info can be added to the User page of that person, as long as it is not just meant for advertising purposes. Adzas (talk) 15:50, 16 August 2015 (EDT)

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