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The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
  
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
  
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{{disclaimerbox|*If you have a question or suggestion about a ''particular'' article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to ''that'' article.
 
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If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.
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<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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*If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
  
Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. '''three months''' after the last comment in that discussion) that could or should be moved to a [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|talk page]], please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
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*If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.}}
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{{disclaimerbox|<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. dormant for a month or more) that could or should be moved to another page, please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
  
* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page
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* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to that article's discussion page
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* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to that policy or expedition discussion page
 
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* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to where the main discussion took place.
  
Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to '''[[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]]''' and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to [[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]] and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, leave it alone—it's better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.}}
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{{WikitravelDoc|collaboration}}
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==Addresses with or without city?==
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The address format specified in [[Wikitravel:Accommodation listings]] states ''Don't repeat the city name unless the "city" is different'', other listings guidelines have very similar rules. However, this was not enforced for a long time and there are now many articles not following this format, showing city names (and ZIP codes) in their listings just as you would in postal addresses. (Regarding the ZIP codes, very few or possibly none of the city articles mention them.) The big question therefore is: what are we gonna do with that? [[User:StenSoft|'''S<small>TEN</small>S<small>OFT</small>''']] <small>([[User talk:StenSoft|talk]])</small> 21:53, 2 September 2014 (EDT)
  
[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
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: Hello there! Well, my opinion is that we should adhere to the guidelines and avoid useless repetitions (and ZIP codes, I'm not sure they can be useful here on Wikitravel). What do you think? Regards, [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 04:00, 3 September 2014 (EDT)
[[de:Wikitravel:Stammtisch]]
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[[eo:Wikitravel:Vojaĝista drinkejo]]
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[[es:Wikitravel:Bar de los viajeros]]
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[[fi:Wikitravel:Kestikievari]]
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[[fr:Wikitravel:Café des Voyageurs]]
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[[he:ויקיטיול:דלפק ייעוץ]]
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[[hi:विकिट्रैवल:यात्री भवन]]
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[[hu:Wikitravel:Kocsmafal]]
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[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
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[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
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[[ko:Wikitravel:Travellers' pub]]
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[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
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[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
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[[pt:Wikitravel:Bar dos viajantes]]
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[[ro:Wikitravel:Hanul călătorilor]]
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[[ru:Wikitravel:Пивная путешественников]]
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[[sv:Wikitravel:Resenärspuben]]
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[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
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[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
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----
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== OpenID still not working==
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::Yesterday I undid a change by [[User:StenSoft|'''S<small>TEN</small>S<small>OFT</small>''']] for this very reason. Apologies! I agree, from now on we should go with the guidelines(just as you both said) and correct all other listings as we come across them. I don't think there's a feature to change all existing listings at once and there are many, many listings with city and zip. Any other ideas?
Also, login on en: using OpenID from fr: and URL ''fr:user:joelf'' doesn't seem to work either. Thanks for your help. joelf
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:Take a look at [[:wts:Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS]].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 14:44, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
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::Still not working yesterday. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:57, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::We will disable. Not a needed function at this time.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:30, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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==[[Archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]==
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:::'''Postal codes''' We definitely ''should'' include postal codes (ZIP or otherwise) because it can make things much easier for machine reading with apps. Imagine an application that could scrape ZIP codes from a guide and then just make listings or an itinerary automatically for a traveller. You can type in "eat at 8:00, museum before noon, eat at 1:00, hiking before 6:00, eat at 7:00: all within three square miles" and an app could do that based on postal codes. It's important to convert listings into machine-readable format for this purpose as well. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 23:42, 20 October 2014 (EDT)
Started a page about [[archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]. Contributions and cross-links are welcome. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 08:58, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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::::That's an interesting perspective that I had not thought about before you brought it up, Koavf.
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::::I think it's covered by the current brief advice at [[Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings#Creating_an_accommodation_listing]] "Postal codes may be used for listings in those countries where they offer useful additional precision {currently Argentina (only 8 character CPA or ''Código Postal Argentino'', Argentine Postal Code), Guernsey, Isle of Man, Jersey, Malta, Netherlands, Portugal and the UK}", but the same advice holds good for other types of listing I would have thought. --[[Special:Contributions/103.9.41.192|103.9.41.192]] 03:33, 27 October 2014 (EDT)
  
: New articles: [[Christian buildings, sites and events]] and [[Muslim buildings, sites and events]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 10:39, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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== New discussion on listings in multiple places ==
  
:: These should link to existing articles such as [[Holy Land]] and [[UNESCO World Heritage List]]. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 20:52, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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Hi Wikitravel admins, I run a social enterprise travel web platform called backstreetacademy.com We allow anyone in developing countries to create a tour experience and list it on our platform to sell it to tourists. We focus on the underprivileged and disadvantaged in creating these experiences. We have physical offices in Kathmandu, Pokhara, Phnom Penh, Siem Reap & Luang Prabang.
  
==Right to vanish policy==
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We have posted our listings on these citys' wikitravel pages, some of the earlier ones are even posted by our guests, but they have all since been removed very consistently and judicously. I subsequently got in touch with one of the admins, username: IBcaldera or Jose and discussed this issue and it boils down to a general rule that wikitravel does not allow multiple listings in different city pages. After our discussion, we believe that there can be exceptions to the rule, and that this rule is preventing the flow of important information to the users and reducing the value of the wikitravel page. Here are the reasons why:
I feel that we lack a right to vanish policy. The meatball version is to be found [http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RightToVanish here]. The Wikipedia version is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Courtesy_vanishing here]. Suggestion: import the current Wikipedia version. [[User:Riggwelter|Riggwelter]] 09:45, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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:*'''Support''' --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 21:16, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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== Many more administrators needed? ==
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1) While websites like ours can be seen as a chain and compared to 'worldwide airlines' and 'hotel chains', i'm sure you can see that while posting the same chains has no value to a user because they already know it to be there and will not be looking for it, they are not aware of this very local business and the information will be of value to them.
  
It's been more than a year since the last Administrator, [[User:Ikan Kekek]], was nominated.
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2) The information we post in each city is different and customized to each city, and the products we offer in each city is also very different, making every post a customized post with again valuable information about activities travelers can do in the city, without which they will not know about on wikitravel, again reducing the value to the users
  
If you believe a Wikitraveller — including yourself — should have [[Wikitravel:Administrators|administrative status]] please verify that they meet the guidelines for becoming an administrator and then add them to the nominations section at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations]]
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3) Choosing one destination to highlight, i guess a common solution prescribed to chains, is not very practical for this as every city is very different, and people who are searching for things to do in Siem Reap for example would obviously not look at the Kathmandu page and would thus miss out on this information.
  
Nominations should also include a sentence or two outlining the nominee's relevant experience and understanding of Wikitravel's policies. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 21:24, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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4) We do have physical locations in each of these cities, not like a virtual website which is just based in one country and selling tours in 100 different cities. In that case they are just replicating listings already on the wikitravel page. All our experiences are however unique and sold exclusively through our website, thus preventing replication of listings and again providing value to users of wikitravel.
  
: The main reason for this problem is that nearly all the current admins have left to start another project. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 22:01, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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5) All the hosts on our platform are people living near the poverty line and would benefit from the support of socially responsible communities such as this, and this exposure would be very helpful for them. A blanket implementation of the rule would really be unnecessarily unfair to them given their non-existent ability to market their services.  
  
::W. Frank is correct -- qualified admins are needed now, and to guide this project going forward. This is an excellent fresh start for Wikitravel :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:29, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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I'm sure there are better ways to implement this rule than to simply delete the listings, thus if there are any recommendations, we will  be happy to engage and implement them in our writing. I'm sure the addition of this listing would be beneficial to users, which is the end goal of wikitravel, and we would do anything we can to help make it so. If there are any other concerns, feel free to discuss, i'm sure we can get to a consensus for the good of all wikitravel users. Thanks and looking forward!  [[User:Jamon919|Jamon919]] ([[User talk:Jamon919|talk]])04:56, 19 September 2014(EDT)
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:'''Touting and multiple listings''' We have policies in place about multiple listings and also [[tout]]ing a good/service/business, etc. because as you pointed out, it is generally the case that a large company or even outright spam will invade and descend upon a free travel guide, thus defeating the purpose of it in the first place. From what you've posted above, your organization is not like that. I feel like this tour would actually be of substantial value to travelers and [[ttcf|he comes first]] in decisions on this site. Although it would be a big change to how this operates, I'm not opposed to it as such. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 01:16, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
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::'''Touting and multiple listings'''. As [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] rightfully pointed out we do have policies to specifically prevent this kind of behavior. Even though [[User:Jamon919|Jamon919]] did make a great point about being eligible for an exception, I, for one, am sorry to say I find this exception a bit of hard to accept. For one thing it's not allowed by our [[Wikitravel:Don't tout#Don't list the same place many times|policies]], and also I think the benefit to the users by this (kind of) exception is exaggerated and the potential difficult situation such an exception will put Wikitravel in is neglected in [[User:Jamon919|Jamon919]]'s argument. It's possible, that we will have many other well-intended business owners/marketers who believe the information about their branches in different cities will benefit Wikitravel users a great deal and post listings here in many different articles, which will enssentially make Wikitravel an advertisement platform. So, even though I find [[User:Jamon919|Jamon919]]'s argument very strong and convincing, I'm still inclined that we stick to the rules. I will also be looking forward to other opinions about this discussion. --[[User:Binbin|Binbin]] ([[User talk:Binbin|talk]]) 02:18, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
  
== Massive spamming ==
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:::Thanks for bringing this up  [[User:Jamon919|Jamon919]] ([[User talk:Jamon919|talk]]). A very tricky subject I think, as not only do you want your listing in multiple articles, the site also offers ''general tour planning'' options, which in general we also don´t allow in our articles. However, looking at the site, if I would be traveling in any of those locations, I would love to try some of the activities you offer, so I feel the information could definitely benefit the traveler. I would rather see a listing like yours, then all those chain hotel and taxi listings. I rather see places mentioned that are "hidden gems" and would make a stay extra special, then the same standard listings that a traveler can easily find on his own. But if we allow your link, many other companies will follow, so this would require clear instructions in our policies and guidelines. It already says in these [[Wikitravel:Activity listings|guidelines]] that if you feel an exception is warranted, to discuss it on the discussion page of the article. So the listing can only be added to the article after a [[Wikitravel:Consensus|consensus]] is reached. If not discussed first, the listing should not be allowed. In your case I would probably vote yes to allow the exception. Again, it is a tricky one, as there are various other listings that I have removed in the past that would probably want their listings added back again, so let´s see what others ('''and also non-admins''') have to say about this. Thanks for your input! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 07:26, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
  
Can the techies improve the captcha or something to cut down on the amount of spam? I've been deleting several pages a day for some time & over a dozen today, and I am not the only admin doing it, but there are lots more. Most involve accounts apparently registered only to spam. Is there a way to prevent spambot registrations? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 01:24, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
 
:Captcha is at its highest level (recaptcha, actually). We're exploring new ways to combat spam accounts, including the Abuse Filter extension. If you notice patterns in the spammers, please let me know. Whether it's coming from a common IP range, always posting the same exact content, similar usernames, etc -- if there's a pattern we can write a rule around, we can set up blocks.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:34, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
 
  
:: One obvious pattern is the dozens of pages with long strings of digits as page names, all with the same content, created by one user. [[Special:Contributions/Русская_месть]]
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:::: I think an important way to discuss this issue isn't to classify it as 'enforce the rules vs making an exception' case. I think that is not the issue here. More importantly at the start of every discussion should be the 'user value test': 'Does this information provide value to a traveler who is traveling to this place?' I think it's clear that a wikitravel user would want to know this option, and by preventing it from being listed, no matter the reason, is a form of censorship which places a cost on the user who is deprived of this information. Why should we be depriving the user of this information? I would believe there is a more urgent need to revisit the interpretation of the rules rather than simply enforcing it. There are many practical usage of a multiple listing, and here are 3 examples i take with reference from the Phnom Penh & Siem Reap pages.
:: Another is use of the <nowiki><br></nowiki> tag, not needed on a wiki but found in many pages whose pattern is "Hello, I'm Bozo McGuffin from Camelot.<nowiki><br><br></nowiki> See my blog:" then some rubbish link. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:33, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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::::1) Handicraft Shop ' Friends & Stuff'
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::::This handicraft shop is listed in both Siem Reap & Phnom Penh. They have physical shops in both places, they are one brand, one company, selling possibly 90% the same products. Should they be classified as multiple listings? There is obvious value for travelers to both cities we cannot assume travelers in one city will definitely travel to the other. And if one listing is deleted, we are depriving the users of that city from knowing about this fabulous shop.
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::::2) Restaurants 'The FCC'
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::::The FCC is both present in Siem Reap and Phnom Penh. Its glaringly obvious that both listings should be present, because they are both star attractions in each city, and each FCC is very different from the other, and even after visiting the one in Phnom Penh, as a traveler i would still want to visit the one in Siem Reap, in fact even more as he must have had a great experience at the FCC Phnom Penh. finding out from wikitravel that there is a FCC in Siem Reap is of great value then for the traveler. Similarly, for Backstreet Academy, each location is quite different from the other, as you might see from the courses offered in each city.  
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::::3) Guesthouses
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::::There are many examples of guesthouses having branches in both Siem Reap and Phnom Penh: Frangipani villas, Velkommen guesthouse etc. Frangipani itself has a number of listings just inside Phnom Penh, and for good reason as each hotel has a slightly different theme to it. Again it's not useful to delete hotel listings for this reason. Each listing has its own value.
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::::From the above examples, i am sure that a flat enforcement of the rules would mean cleaning up all those as well, and how much value would be wiped off wikitravel if that was to happen. Thus its obvious its not a 'enforce the rules vs making an exception' case. It's more of how do we interpret the rules in every case? And in interpreting the rules, the most important consideration would be to consider the value to the users. Since the above examples make sense, i'm pretty sure the backstreet academy example makes sense too, as will many other business listings.[[User:Jamon919|Jamon919]] ([[User talk:Jamon919|talk]])
  
:: Thinking about it, if there was a way to prohibit new users from posting links -- for example just reject any edit to a new user page that includes a link -- that would eliminate most spam. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:51, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
 
  
::: [[User:Пиздец неруси!]] is spamming. Block immediately. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 07:42, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Hey guys, thanks for your input so far! Not trying to step on anyone's toes, but both sides are correct. In fact there is no right or wrong here, only a "how do we approach this." As [[User:Binbin|Binbin]] said we can't allow Wikitravel to become an advertising platform that's certain. It's simply not what we do. Sites like TripAdvisor have cornered the business-oriented travel site space and they do it well. I like to think of Wikitravel in the following manner, "If I were to be planning a trip to a new destination what would I like to know?" Having this in mind, Back Street Academy's services would be an asset, but it has to be handled carefully. Yes, some business have managed to sneak past our eyes onto multiple articles, but with such a popular Wiki, it's difficult to catch every single instance. It's not that we let them through, it's that we didn't catch it. I suggest we try to come up with a new solution in which businesses can list themselves only if the content is catered to that specific location '''''while at the same time''''' observing our current policies on the number of listings per section.
  
::::Yes, he has vandalized hundreds of articles. Blocking him before he vandalizes a few hundred more articles might be a nice idea... <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 08:25, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::::''I'm going to step back from my role as admin for a moment and speak as a traveler now. I don't come to wikitravel.com to find out the best hotel in Paris or the best tour service or the best restaurant. I go to TripAdvisor, Yelp, or any similar site for that kind of information because I can find first person reviews. I come to Wikitravel because it will show me multiple ways to get to Paris, points of interest in the city, local activities, general travel info and regulations that I should keep in mind. The businesses are icing, but they are not why I'm here.''
  
If you feel strongly about this, as I do, then why not suggest other Wikitravellers — including yourself — for [[Wikitravel:Administrators|Administrator status]]?
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:::::I'm proposing an addition to business listing policy - if you can't successfully state how your business is relevant to that destination in your listing, "so long". Under this addendum, Backstreet Academy(and any other business) would be allowed on Wikitravel as long as the business made an expressed interest in proving their relevancy in their listings. Yes there are holes to my idea, holes that we can work together to solve. In the long term, we would cleanse Wikitravel of posts that are spammy and for lack of a better phrase - not up to standard. Thoughts? [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 15:26, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
  
Please verify that they (you?) meet the guidelines for becoming an administrator and then add them to the nominations section at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations]]. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 09:17, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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::::::Let's begin by citing the regulation that prohibits multiple listings for a business on multiple destination pages; the rule cited above prohibits multiple mentions on a SINGLE page (i.e. if a particular hotel also has a bar that's "famous" and could be listed on its own). Next, if a change is proposed, it must be in the form of a regulation that can be applied evenly by all editors. Saying the business must make a case for whether it is "relevant" will only lead to everyone saying they are relevant because they are located in that destination, and it turns the decision into a subjective one; i.e. this is "worthy" and that is not. I don't see that as helping, and I don't see how it keeps the Hilton from being able to add listings for every hotel they own in the world, which we do not want. [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 20:51, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
  
:FYI, we have placed some filters, as well as scripted the mass deletion of the vandalism over the last 2 days. It's not a big deal in the end, just a minor annoyance. Vandalizing a wiki... pointless. Thank you all for you help.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:54, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::Hello guys, what an interesting debate here! I have to say that I understand each one's point of view, but I think we should stick to our guidelines: even though a company such as Backstreet Academy indeed offers a valuable service for tourists (and I would probably use such a service if I travelled in that region) I think that allowing to insert a listing in every page might attract many other businesses claiming to be “valuable” for any reason. That's why I totally agree with [[User:Binbin|Binbin]], we can't allow Wikitravel to become an advertisement platform, it's not WT's purpose. I fear that this could trigger endless discussions here on the Pub or in the articles' talkpages or, worse, edit-wars which is something I'd really hate to see on Wikitravel. If we decide for exceptions (or an addition as suggested by [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] - it's a good idea), then the criteria for these exceptions/additions must be clearly stated on the guidelines or the debate will never end. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 04:58, 21 September 2014 (EDT)
  
::That's great news! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:09, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::: Hi everyone, i see your worries about not sticking to the guidelines, but i think if many of us agree about the value of a listing and how it would help in our own travel planning, then the key should be about how to revise the guideline rather than agreeing something has value and then saying it shouldnt be there because the guidelines say so. Guidelines are here to ensure wikitravel stays relevant and valuable to users, and if we are sticking to it to destroy value, then whats the point?
  
This account [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD_-_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5_%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F_%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5!&limit=500&target=%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD+-+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5+%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F+%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5!] has vandalised thousands of pages. On the software side of things, can making more than "X number of edits in X amount of time" by a new user/IP address be blocked? [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 03:33, 26 September 2012 (EDT) PS:The name translates (Google Translate) as "Stalin-our shared combat". Wonder if it has something to do with those Pro-Communist/Russian nationalist people we've had to deal with on the Russia & Tiraspol pages?
+
Regarding the influx of businesses and chains saying they are of value, i think:
 +
1) This is a slippery slope argument. 1 business doing so doesn't mean all others will also do so. Secondly, it's not for the business to claim value, its for the admins or users to claim value. Of course every business will claim it has value, but it should not be up to them to justify. It should be for you guys to determine. I don't know how you guys decide things, but it probably can be done the same way with an added guideline of how admins should consider value to the community. Again nothing for business owners to decide besides providing more information if it is debatable.
  
:PPS:Looks like several vandalism bots might be those people. За Родину!= For the Motherland!  Слава России!!!=Glory to Russia!  Слава Родине!=Glory to the motherland!  Пиздец неруси!=Nerusi f***ed!  Русская месть=Русская месть  Возмездие= Retaliation Месть русских=Revenge of the Russian That's all the Cyrillic user names that appear in the block log going back through the 14th.
+
2) Big chains like everyone mentions which doesn't have value really don't careabout listing on wikitravel. Hilton like someone mentioned simply isn't going to spend effort doing this or debating about its value. What you are afraid of is not going to happen, in this particular scenario.
  
:The red box being put on pages corresponds with the [http://wikitravel.org/ru/%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA:%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9 page of the user] that has taken over the Russian WT merging former Soviet countries into the "Russia" page. User page translates to: "Слава России! GLORY OF RUSSIA! Glory to the great heroes of the Russian land! Honor, praise, honor and eternal glory to the victorious people! Kudos to you, brave,    GLORY, fearless!        Eternal glory SINGS TO YOU PEOPLE. Valiantly lived,     Death is broken,         MEMORIES OF YOU WILL NEVER DIE! WE - RUSSIAN, God with us!"  Clearly some delusional apparatchik well-versed in Russian nationalist, revisionist history. Can Cyrillic characters be blocked from new user names? Any other ways to deal with this? Seems to me like the people who gave us the headache over on the Russia/Tiraspol pages were likely from Transnistria (which corresponds to the Tiraspol edits & the fact that Transnistria remains stuck in the 1980s with the Communist party in charge). Any way to automatically block (or put restrictions on editing capability) of Moldovan IP addresses? Possible to also add Ukraine, too, because Transnistria borders it and it's possible telecom services might come from Ukraine due to the conflict between Moldova/Transnistria.[[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 04:22, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
+
I'm pretty sure the guideline for an admin to decide if it has value is enough to weed out nonsensical or spammy listings, and as long as a few admins decide that it does have value, then there will be a group of people who would be happy to know about this information. Again, i think the freedom of a wiki, the non-censorship are what embodies such a community, with the exceptions of malicious spammy people who can be blocked, this sort of censorship is really going against the core values of an open source community. Jamon919
  
: Can we make it impossible to register an account on en with a non-ASCII name? There have been at least two accounts with Russian names used for vandalism. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 03:45, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
+
:Actually, Jamon, this happens constantly. Big corporations hire smaller marketing firms to add their listings to Wikitravel for the same reason you want your listing here: to drive sales. [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 19:00, 23 September 2014 (EDT)
 +
::'''Spamming''' IBobi is right--spam is a serious problem here. If we were to allow some exception or change to the rules, it would have to be in a structured or predictable way. As though there were specific affiliates for Wikitravel who were agreed upon by the community. The tricky part about ''that'' is that it opens up the door to the site being less free and objectively helpful to travelers and it risks an endless stream of "Why not this?" exceptions... [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 00:41, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
  
::I see the vandalism and your heroic efforts. I think both those restrictions are on the table and good ideas. Thanks for your heroic efforts in reverting. We'll have to see about a mass revert via username. If the Abuse Filter can handle the x edits/x time restriction, that might do it. Even if we set it to 50/hour, it would have helped here tremendously.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 03:56, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
+
:::As I also said before, a tricky subject....but we can also look at it from a different angle. Instead of debating whether a link should be allowed, why not focus on the main aim of Wikitravel, which is adding valuable information for our travelers. If your business is offering a great experience, why not describe the sights that can be seen in your location, so travelers want to visit the location, and on your user page just add your business name (no advertising, but you can associate yourself with your business on your user page). If a traveler feels your information is helpful he/she may check out your user page, to find out more about you and possibly your business. If they then want to contact you, that is great, and in the meantime we have great valuable information in the article itself. We are not an advertising platform, there are other sites for this, contributors should remember this. Just my thought for the day. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 05:20, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
  
I would strongly deprecate any blocking based on geographical area or Cyrillic alphabet names. We do not want the innocent to suffer because of the guilty. Number of edits allowable per minute (if technically feasible) would not penalise the innocent newbie so much, but set much lower limits eg 1 edit per 2 minutes for 1st 7 days  of a new account, then 1 edit per 1 minute for next 7 days, then 2 edits per 1 minute for next 28 days, then 3 edits per 1 minute for next 90 days, subject to manual override on appeal. -- <strike>[[Special:Contributions/89.242.187.211|89.242.187.211]]</strike> [[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 04:36, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
+
::::After reading everyone's thoughts, I have to agree. The pros don't outweigh the cons. [[User:Jamon919|Jamon919]] thank you for bringing this up, please accept our apologies on our community's decision. We'd be happy to host your listing in what you believe is your flagship location. Please be assured one of our duties as admins is to catch spammers in multiple articles, we are doing the best we can with the info the system shows us! If you need anything at all please feel free to reach out to myself or anyone who participated in this discussion. I personally know they practice some of the best judgement I've come across during my time here! [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 14:30, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
  
:I agree with Frank, we shouldn't discriminate against a certain area or language. Anyways, the vandal could switch to ASCII names, so there's not much point in blocking non-ASCII names. But I'm fine with an edits per minute limit. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 10:23, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
+
== Merging many articles into one? ==
  
:: I am taking out anywhere from two to twenty spam pages every time I visit, and that is just the obvious stuff. I'm not even looking at the dozens that are probably spam, the ones with a three-line intro to a "user" and some irrelevant link. Nor am I patrolling edits other than new pages and some things on my watchlist. I am doing far more deletions now than I used to when there was a whole crew of editors, but I'm also seeing more problems I do not have time for and much less patrolling by other admins.
+
Hello people! I've been recently working on all the city articles for the [[South Bay (Los Angeles County)|South Bay]] and trying to make them into somewhat usable articles. However, it doesn't seem like any one city in this region ''really'' fills up an entire article neither are many of the cities a tourist destination. So I've been playing with the idea of merging all of the two dozen city articles into the one South Bay regional article with sub-regions to preserve all the info from past edits. Some of the articles I've worked on here are big on transportation but small on real substance (like, what to do, where to stay, etc.) Also, it would make it easier for a traveler to find all of the things they want without having to sift through boring city articles. Does that sound like a good idea? [[User:Jrunna runna|Jrunna runna]] ([[User talk:Jrunna runna|talk]]) 04:47, 26 September 2014 (EDT)
 +
: Hi Jrunna runna! The page [[Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy]] mentions something you may find interesting: [[Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy#Other divisions]]. Sounds like a go to me, but please have a look on it and let's see what other people say. Cheers! [[User:PierrB|PierrB]] ([[User talk:PierrB|talk]]) 11:20, 26 September 2014 (EDT)
  
:: If IB want to keep this site alive despite the massive defection of editors, something must be done quite urgently. Either find many new editors or have IB employees doing extensive patrolling. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:48, 14 October 2012 (EDT)
+
==Slowing the spammers' deluge==
 +
I notice that many spammers create accounts only so that they can seed their user page and newly created articles with new external links.
  
::: And the spammers are getting craftier. I believe [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Dajamer&diff=prev&oldid=1941189 this one] created several different "Black Hat" user names to vandalise dozens of pages and then went back using his "White hat" user account to "repair" the damage - but also added a tailored external link to a travel guide each time, hoping it would not be noticed in the pag3 "restoration"!
+
Since few genuine new account creators will think they need to immediately create user pages or new articles with external links, why not institute fail-safe precautions:
:::IBadmins are doing extensive patrolling Monday to Friday but there are patterns in this spamming which could be used to automate reversions.
+
:::Meanwhile, I would hope that we might see some more [[Wikitravel:Administrator_nominations|Administrator nominations here...]] --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 10:08, 15 October 2012 (EDT)
+
  
::::Thank for that alert, guys -- were you in fact seeing that spam piling up on the weekend? We do expect to see less of that as more admins are starting to peck away at night and weekends. We also are in the process of implementing a number of filters that keep vandalism and spam more at bay, but there is only so much Captcha and filtering can do versus NEW pages; no system is going to be able to tell what is a "good" new page and what is not, because there's very little commonality with which to write a rule that prevents them without potentially preventing "good" new pages from being created.
+
Institute a script to immediately and automatically block (with an appropriate message on their talk page but leave open their ability to e-mail)
 +
*a) all new accounts who create an external link on their user page within 30 days
 +
*b) all all new accounts who create a new article with an external link within 30 days
  
::::The good news is, new content continues to be added to WT at a fantastic rate. This site is doing great, and you two are part of the reason. If you have ideas for spam remediation, I am more than happy to implement them!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:24, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
+
The "appropriate message" would point out the reason for the block and explain how it can be appealed. --[[Special:Contributions/92.30.241.130|92.30.241.130]] 20:53, 13 October 2014 (EDT)
 +
:'''True''' But this would require a technical fix from the team at Shared. Also, anyone who's even moderately good at spamming will just set their bots to wait X days before adding links. It ''will'' stop some spam (probably most!) but it's not perfect. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 22:58, 13 October 2014 (EDT)
 +
::Even a 30% reduction would give hard-working admins such as yourself more time to concentrate on more interesting and substantive edits.
 +
::The rules can also be refined - for example, apply the procedures outlined above to those accounts that have made no intervening edits that did ''not'' add external links.  
 +
::Looking at the history of this Travellers' Pub over the last year or so, I do realise that few if any [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel%3ATravellers%27_pub&diff=2203641&oldid=2200394 good suggestions] are ever acted upon. Does that mean that technical support for this website has now ceased? --[[Special:Contributions/92.30.244.53|92.30.244.53]] 09:16, 14 October 2014 (EDT)
 +
:::'''Tech support''' "Ceased" is a bit strong but there are regular complaints about bugs, features, etc. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 14:44, 14 October 2014 (EDT)
 +
::::[http://wikitravel.org/en/Template_talk:Schengen-visalist There is one little change you could make, Koavf]...--[[Special:Contributions/92.30.244.53|92.30.244.53]] 18:59, 18 October 2014 (EDT)
  
:::::I do have one lead that you might want to check out - but since I suspect it might be against (your implicit) policy to mention the source here, I will email you about it. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:44, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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I enjoyed putting the toppings on the pizza and herding sheep, but how are blind folks expected to pass the new (or old) captcha? --[[Special:Contributions/103.9.41.192|103.9.41.192]] 01:58, 5 November 2014 (EST)
  
===Abuse filter===
+
{{WikitravelDoc|collaboration}}
The abuse filter names are singularly unhelpful (they appear to be named after things like Stephen King novels and the like).  When a user gets a message like "A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Lethal Weapon", that doesn't help them make more constructive edits, because it doesn't explain what the problem was.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 16:47, 25 October 2012 (EDT)
+
  
===Legal action?===
+
[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
User [[User:IBlegal]] has made some imprecise and obnoxious threats and IB has actually sued some users and there are countersuits[https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/09/05/wikimedia-foundation-seeks-declaratory-relief-in-response-to-legal-threats-from-internet-brands/].
+
[[de:Wikitravel:Stammtisch]]
 
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[[eo:Wikitravel:Vojaĝista drinkejo]]
Would it not be a better use of legal dep't time to go after the spammers who are actively and persistently damaging the site? I took out 24 rubbish pages today, 19 yesterday, and I'm just doing the obvious ones. Unchecked, these bozos will destroy WT.
+
[[es:Wikitravel:Bar de los viajeros]]
 
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[[fi:Wikitravel:Kestikievari]]
Also, going after spammers would be much better politically, doing something that might help all the other wiki sites out there rather than appearing petulant and aggressive. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 06:09, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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[[fr:Wikitravel:Café des Voyageurs]]
 
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[[he:ויקיטיול:דלפק ייעוץ]]
:You're not wrong! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:01, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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[[hi:विकिट्रैवल:यात्री भवन]]
 
+
[[hu:Wikitravel:Kocsmafal]]
::That was literally months ago. We've moved on.
+
[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
::FYI legal has nothing whatsoever to do with spam. Spam is handled here, by people like you & me. Some of it we can handle technically, a lot of it manually. This is how it is everywhere. It's a neverending battle, but we do very well at it. I saw your edits over the weekend and recently, Pashley, and you're doing an amazing job! For instance: the life of the [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Undelete/Various_Knobs_and_pulls_for_door knob and door] page was... about 3 hours? That's fantastic!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:05, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
:::That's great news if it really is true that Internet Brands have reached an out of court settlement with the Wikimedia foundation and the former contributors to this site that it sued, IBobi. Where can we see the press release and ''then'' move on? --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:23, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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[[ko:Wikitravel:사랑방]]
 
+
[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
::: Good question! [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:02, 15 November 2012 (EST)
+
[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
 
+
[[pt:Wikitravel:Bar dos viajantes]]
Yes, I know that currently "legal has nothing whatsoever to do with spam"; I am suggesting that they should. There are laws in place that make misuse of other people's computers a criminal offense and/or grounds for a lawsuit in many jurisdictions. The site logs have IP addresses for where this rubbish comes from. The spam itself has URLs for advertised pages. I'm both cynical and biased, so my opinion of IB's legal department is remarkably low, but I imagine they could do this. It might even be profitable if they nail the right spammers. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:13, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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[[ro:Wikitravel:Hanul călătorilor]]
:Again, you're not wrong!
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[[ru:Wikitravel:Пивная путешественников]]
:Although, the hard case spammers can use proxy servers and internet cafe's to try and attempt to circumvent these lawsuits, it would be a relatively trivial programming task to block IP edits (as opposed to edits by registered users) from each proxy or IP address as it becomes known for abuse. In this case I would suggest also blocking edits by registered users from each black-listed proxy or IP address until an editor using a black-listed proxy or IP address has made a certain number of good edits - say 15 - so that privacy obsessed and registered "good" editors are not handicapped in any way.
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[[sv:Wikitravel:Resenärspuben]]
:Thanks for continuing your spam removal, Pashley! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 10:15, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
::Ideally I agree with all of this. Internet companies have explored many avenues for actually tracking down spammers who blast their sites. The sad reality is they continue to make enough money doing this that they can afford to employ armies of people in between themselves and the site, masking IPs, and generally making themselves untouchable to anything short of the FBI; and if they're outside the US? No idea. Interpol? We always do as Frank suggested, blocking obvious spam user accounts permanently while also blocking the IP address they come from for a shorter amount of time. It's the best that can be done, and it works. The amount and type of spam we had three months ago was night and day compared to now. As we continue to add admins, it will get even better.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:46, 15 November 2012 (EST)
+
[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
 
+
::: You think the current situation is "better"? Wow! To me, it seems an almost complete disaster.
+
::: Checking recent changes, I find I have nuked 57 garbage pages in the last four days. I am ''only'' checking main article space and only taking out really obvious spam. There are certainly dozens I am missing; I would not be surprised if it were hundreds.
+
::: Moreover, I generally just nuke the page leaving it to others to block the bogus users. I quite often see the page reappear in my watchlist with new spam, indicating that no-one is doing those blocks. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 14:07, 15 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:::::It's definitely better; the measure is not how many spam pages appear, it's how long do they live on the site for. If a spammer/spambot creates a page, we delete the page, block the spam account and block the IP they used, the same spammer can then create the same page using a new account and IP. That's why you may see that happening after you nuke a page; it isn't the same IP or account, it's the same spammer. If I could delete *people* I would ;)
+
:::::By the same token, if you do happen to see the same page reappear after being created by the same user/IP, please let me know. We can always use more tips on how to get it done best. Whenever possible, I use the following technique:
+
:::::1. Locate spam edit. 2. Block user/IP. 3. Protect the spam page to be editable admins only (in the hopes that it won't be able to be recreated). 4. Delete the spam page.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:16, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::::::You talk a good game but, as my neighbours sometimes say in Glasgow [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1952468&oldid=1952345 you seem to be all mouth and nae troosers!].
+
::::::IB: "As we continue to add admins" but [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1953924&oldid=1953816]
+
 
+
Good luck. I took out a dozen rubbish pages today, but I feel like I'm almost alone both as a contributor & as an admin. There are masses of admin work being left undone &mdash; patrolling in general, in particular catching the bogus user pages I mentioned above, blocking the bogus users for pages I've deleted (one spambot whose drivel I removed refilled the page eight times before I got bored & removed it from my watchlist; it is probably still active), appointing new admins (see troosers just above), ...
+
 
+
My editing work now is on other wikis where there's a reasonable community to interact with and admin things actually get done. I'll keep the account here and pop in from time to time to see what's doing, but for now I'm done with even trying to fix the spam problem. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 17:16, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:''Bon voyage'', Sandy!
+
:The dwindling '''real''' community on Wikitravel (as opposed to some PR-speak or Orwellian new definition) certainly have appreciated your erudite contributions and dogged persistence to the bitter end here.
+
 
+
:I'll probably linger on (at least until fired by IBobi or one of his minions) since I hate seeing a good project destroyed by boneheaded stupidity and inaction. I'll message you privately via one of your other projects (since e-mailing is still disabled here) if there is anything cosmic that needs your urgent attention. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 19:35, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:::Very sorry to hear that. In general, this *is* how spam gets removed. I and the other admins here at IB are constantly removing the spam that gets through the Captcha, Spam Blacklist, and Abuse Filters that we are also constantly updating. There will always be people trying to spam the site, and we'll always be here removing it. It's simply not possible to stop it all on the front end, so blocking and deleting is the order of the day. It's a fact of life, and any site that encourages anyone to edit it will have to deal.
+
:::You've been a very valuable admin here, Sandy, and I hope you'll reconsider & stay. Any suggestions you have will be heeded; in particular, if there are persistent spambots, we can block them at the IP level, or even rages of IPs -- there's no reason to continually remove the same content.
+
:::Either way, we'll be seeing you around, and thank you :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:52, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::: Pashley, it's sad to see you giving up. Please know, that everybody here '''highly appreciates your contributions''' and your '''administrative efforts'''. Spam is going to be always happening on sites where the content is generated by users. Actually, right now IB notices way less spam than it used to be. There are more people keeping an eye on the site plus we set up a bunch of abuse filters that help us significantly.
+
:::We would like to  see you here often. Please know that you are always welcomed on Wikitravel! Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 19:54, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Help! ==
+
 
+
I'm trying to remove vandalism on the page [[Midwest (United States of America)]]. But I can't, and I get the message:
+
 
+
This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your edit was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Link spamming by anonymous or recently-registered users
+
 
+
Why is reverting vandalism harmful?! (unsigned by [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/204.45.134.109 204.45.134.109])
+
 
+
:Hi there, It may be that your edit included a link, which is something the system looks for from newly registered or anonymous IP editors (since they are often sources of spam). Sorry about that, it's a protection that helps keep Wikitravel's pages clean and spam-free. I recommend registering an account, and after you've become recognized by the community and the system, your edits can be properly attributed to you, etc. Welcome aboard!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:42, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Also, I have made that revert!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:58, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Ok, I've made an account and I'm trying to revert vandalism on the page [[Mombasa]], but I cant, and I still get the same message! Im only trying to help wikitravel. [[User:Ÿ;;!!!|Ÿ;;!!!]] 09:31, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::I'm sorry, I realize you're helping by editing the page back to where it was before. Please keep making constructive edits -- we're happy to have you!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 03:07, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
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== MVGreenland ==
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User [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/MVGreenland MVGreenland] has been contributing many listings and photos (see WS). What do you think of these contributions? Touting?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:34, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
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:Someone needs to review all the photos to ensure the licensing is correct...someone over on WT Shared needs to check these. Make sure to click the link to the photo. At first I clicked the link to the user stream and saw all the photos were copyrighted. However, when I clicked on the link to the photo ([http://wikitravel.org/shared/File:Raining_Qaqortoq.jpeg on WTS] and [http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilovegreenland/4929429831/ on flickr]) I noticed it was licensed CC-SA 2.5 on WTS & CC-A 2.0 on flickr. As far as edits go, I went through the most recent 100 edits and didn't see anything that goes against our policies. There were a couple photos of businesses added (1-2 hotels & a bookshop), but none of the wording in hotel listings this user has added sound like touting. IMO, the user seems like a very helpful contributor to our Greenland pages. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 00:24, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
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::Thanks for that -- I generally felt the same way, as did IBcash, about the tone of his edits. Skirting the line perhaps but nothing worse than other business owners do.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 01:29, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
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== Selection of Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path for Main Page ==
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Hey current editors! We have changed the Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path sections of the Main Page for October. However, we would value your input and suggestions in the [[Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates|Destination of the Month candidates page]] for following months. Please check it out! [[User:IBcash|IBcash]] 15:38, 2 October 2012 (EDT)
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:Obviously I'd like to feature a New Zealand destination - but first I need to get one to Star status! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 07:50, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
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::Albuquerque has been already featured in the past as a Destination of the Month. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 17:01, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
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::: You're right! It slipped past me. Thanks! Since we changed it early because we didn't have one in September, we could keep it there until the 15th (the actual time when the OTBP would change) and then change it. What do you think? Any suggestions for another October OTBP? [[User:IBcash|IBcash]] 13:59, 4 October 2012 (EDT)
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::::Thanks guys.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:55, 16 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Hello! Are there any suggestions for the '''Destination of the Month''' and '''Off the Beaten Path''' for '''December'''. Please let us know your ideas [[Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates|here]]. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 19:04, 27 November 2012 (EST)
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:::::I think that [[Jacksonville]] would be a good '''Destination Of The Month''' for February or March. What do you think? [[User:Travelgeek]] 12:34, 27 December 2012 (EST)
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== References/footnotes/quoting ==
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Hello everyone,
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Being an experienced Wikipedia editor, but very, '''very''' new to Wikitravel editing (though a somewhat frequent reader of), I - on my very first intended edit - ran into a question.<br />
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In the [[Slovakia#By_car|By car]]-section of the [[Slovakia]] travel guide, I would like to have quoted a part of the [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/europe/slovakia UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office travel advice for Slovakia]: "''The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills).''" In my view it sums it up very brilliantly (having being a driving tourist in Slovakia on several occasions) and I think, that sourcing it would only make it all the more authoritative in this case. While being a reader of Wikitravel I have never pondered over the "lack" of quotes, but I have now looked into both a number of articles as well as various parts of the [[Wikitravel:Manual of style]], the [[Wikitravel:External links]] (could be it had something - it didn't) and [[Wikitravel:Welcome, Wikipedians]]/[[Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia]]/[[shared:How to re-use Wikipedia content]] (Wikipedia is rather anal about quoting and sourcing). Basically I came up empty-handed in all cases. I even found [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Reflist]] indicating that I'm not the only one with this "predicament". So my question is:<br />
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How do I quote and reference it?
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I'm inclined to just insert a statement such as:
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:As the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office put it in their [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/europe/slovakia travel advice for Slovakia]: "The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills)."
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But I would rather do it in the right manner, in case I have missed something very obvious :). In kind regards, Henrik/[[User:Heb|Heb]] 04:01, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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::You could go the short quote route (under the fair dealing copyright provisions) providing a link to the source (that might quickly become outdated) but it might be better just to put that in your own words - especially if you've personal experience of driving in Slovakia. That would mean one less external link - [[Wikitravel:External_links|which we prefer]]. We normally don't reference material here and unless we're (rarely) using a direct quote, don't usually source either. Enjoy your new-found freedom and plunge forward Henrik!--[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 07:55, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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== SVG-files? ==
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Okay, another question from newbie Dane, but please bare with me...<br />
+
I wanted to update the S-train-map in the [[Copenhagen#Get_around|Get around]]-section of the [[Copenhagen]] travel guide. The one currently there is from 2009, and there has been two changes since then. Because I am slightly lazy, I thought of using the [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S-train_diagram_(dec_2011).svg map from Wikimedia Commons], which as far as I read [[shared:Tech:Enable InstantCommons]] should be fairly easy. Unfortunately the simple <nowiki>[[Image:S-train diagram (dec 2011).svg|thumb|420px|Map of S-trains and Metro in the Copenhagen area, with districts marked in the background]]</nowiki> didn't work - and neither did replacing Image: with File:. So I tried including a .png-file from Wikimedia Commons and that actually did work :)<br />
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Then I did a [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search=svg&fulltext=Search&ns6=1&redirs=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext=Advanced+search search for .svg-files on Wikitravel] and there seems to be a lot of them. But none of them works. So I'm guessing there is an issue with SVG-files somewhere. I tried with SVG-files on Wikimedia Commons and there have no problems. What do I do? In kind regards, Henrik/[[User:Heb|Heb]] 04:28, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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:I'm afraid this is beyond my knowledge - but I can confirm it's a real problem - I had to substitute a png file for an svg file in [[Template:Busy|this template]], Henrik. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 17:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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::I will have tech look into this! Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:30, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::OK -- we're seeing that they do in fact work (you have to click all the way through to the actual file, not the thumbnail), they just won't produce thumbnails.
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:::Can you tell me how you're uploading them, and where, step by step, i.e. 1) Go this page 2) Edit 3) Upload this file or reference this file 4) Error?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:50, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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::::Looks like this may be fixed; thumbnails should slowly repopulate as the cache rebuilds over time. Let me know if this is still not working as expected.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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== Travel news ==
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Hello! I would like to call to action all the administrators and contributors on WT.
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For a long time [[Travel news]] have been outdated. It is time to change it and keep the Travel Alerts and Current and upcoming events up-to-date. To achieve that, '''I need your help'''. Who is willing to offer his/her help? Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:54, 29 October 2012 (EDT)
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:I think many of us are waiting for some straight answers [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers%27_pub&oldid=1954973#Clarification here] before we decide whether it's worth the effort in doing anything other than curating the articles that have already been written, Aleksandra. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 19:56, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::It's a pity to hear that, Frank, because I really believe in Wikitravel and I would like to make the site as much updated as possible. I know that with '''yours''' and '''community''' support it will be easier and better. [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 20:27, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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==Edit war: [[Stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]]==
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The [[stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]] (and to some extent [[Sweden]]) is frequently subject to edit conflicts, many of them pushing the opinion that Stockholm would be a dangerous city. Can you give some advice how to solve this disagreement? Thanks in advance. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 09:45, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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:Hello Blist! Thank you for notifying me. I checked it out and I saw that the user with the IP address 84.217.118.107 has made just one change in the [[stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]]. However, I have already contacted him asking to avoid edit wars on [[Stockholm]] page and discuss all the changes he is planning to do on the [[Talk:Stockholm| discussion page]].
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:I am also watching this page so I will keep an eye on this issue. Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:04, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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::The best solution is always to discuss the changes you both are making, using the Discussion page for that article. Sometimes it can be difficult to get an IP user to engage in this way. Try leaving a detailed note in the Edit Summary asking him/her to talk to you.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:43, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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::: POV-pushing continues, by first-time unregistered users. Can anything more be done? Please contribute to [[Talk:Stockholm]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 07:06, 26 November 2012 (EST)
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== Travel booking tool! ==
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Soon, Wikitravellers will have the ability not only to browse and edit travel topics right here on the world's largest and best free travel wiki, but also to *book* travel from the very same page.
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Wikitravel has partnered with Orbitz to bring you a tool that will give you air and hotel booking options on each destination page in our travel guide. If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
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We've worked with the Wikitravel community over the past 2 years to determine exactly what the look and feel of the tool ought to be; please let us know any feedback you have, and we'll make every effort to accommodate changes! Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:34, 19 November 2012 (EST)
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:I think this is a great idea for monetising the site!
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:I also like the way that none of our registered editors will probably ever notice this. After all, you're not wrong when you continually point out that there are millions of visitors to this site who never bother to register and will automatically get a chance to make bookings.
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:So as not to weaken the credibility of the ads, it's even more important to give more people effective janitor tools!
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:However, I still think that you should clarify in writing the community established policies you have changed. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
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::I've switched on the display of Orbitz but still I never see it. What pages is it actually working on, please?
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::Also, Wikitravel has been slow to the point of being unusable today from this Pacific Rim country - the competing Wikimedia site loads more than 100 times faster on identical pages like [[North Korea]]. More than 20 times in succession I get the "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data" message. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 04:07, 22 November 2012 (EST)
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:::Did I miss an important announcement? I still don't see the display of Orbitz travel information but now the option to switch it on has disappeared completely from my preferences. What gives? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 02:54, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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::::At this time, the tool is only available if you are not logged in. We will restore functionality to those who wish to use it while logged in soon.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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Thanks for your prompt response.
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I assume you are still having technical problems since I have just seen the Orbitz tool appear for the first time '''while logged in''' and with my preferences flag '''not''' set to "Show Orbitz Search", as this screenshot clearly shows if you click on it to enlarge: [[Image:WikitravelScreenshot20121201Orbitz-Displays-while-logged-in.png|150px|Screenshot a few moments after IBobi's assertion]] Please feel free to email me if you need help.
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With [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers%27_pub&curid=76403&diff=1961629&oldid=1961571 this edit] you removed another user's comments. Unless there are exceptional reasons, this is frowned upon, so I assume the excision was accidental, yes? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:10, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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:Alice- you have to go to your web browser's options and '''clear cache''' . Then the Orbitz Widget will not show again. I hope it helps. [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:27, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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==[[Southwest (United States of America)]]==
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What happened to this page? Its text is now on [[Southwest United States]] but that page doesn't contain the history. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 22:00, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
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:Bizarre! You might want to check the logs. (IBadmins have recently promoted - without any community discussion or warning - a number of admins that, unlike yourself, have a very limited understanding of the policies and procedures of the English Wikitravel. Equally it might be some new spammer trickery.) --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:57, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
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::Fixed; no biggie. Just re-saved from earlier edit. Happens with MW database on occasion.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 04:58, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
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:::Thanks for your very rapid response.
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:::I have deleted the contents & re-directed: [[Southwest (United States of America)]] since it's a breach of our Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike licence to duplicate a page without duplicating the attribution history.
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:::I'm still baffled as to how (on the face of it) an IP editor managed to duplicate an article and then delete the original (and its edit history) and all without leaving a trace in the logs. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
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::::Without doing extensive research, I'm not sure that's how it went down. Looked to me like a DB error that was easily corrected. At any rate, after verifying that the "new" page redirects also redirected to the "old" page, I went ahead and deleted the "new" page, as it consisted of nothing more than dupe content, which is confusing. We don't want people contributing on one location and not the other, which is just what would happen.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:52, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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===Database error===
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What is this database error? There are many pages missing including [[Ocean City]], [[Sydney/Bondi Beach]], [[Afrikaans phrasebook]]. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 18:27, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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:We're looking into what causes this. Obviously we do not want to wait until a knowledgeable editor like yourself discovers pages that are unusable. Did you find these by browsing to them or by some other method?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:39, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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==[[Wikitravel:Geocoding]] is also broken==
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The article above states: "''It's possible to encode information about the latitude and longitude of a destination into the destination guide itself. This information will then be used to make special HTML tags to show that the page is related to those lat/long coordinates;"..."A "Map" link will also be added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane, which will take users to a Google, Yahoo, or Microsoft map of the location.''"
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I've added the relevant template to our [[Nelson (New Zealand)]] article but the "Map" link was '''not''' added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane! --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 20:37, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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:Hmm. Research shows that there have been problems with this template interfering with formatting. And not being terribly useful besides. We'll have to look into this one. Do you see an example where it is working?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:35, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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::I can't find any page where it is '''not''' currently broken - sorry.
+
  
::It's not terribly useful to save the few keystrokes needed to key "Nelson, New Zealand" into the on-line mapping provider of your choice but
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== Editing ghost trick ==
:#it would enhance the advertising click revenue of Internet Brands to have our relevant article page (with advertising by default) show up on users geocode-enabled smartphones according to their GPS location
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:#it's '''''very''''' useful to find out of the way places (often in third world countries) where names are often incompletely found or differently spelt on maps. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 17:01, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+
  
==ISBN book references are also broken==
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Firstly, I am not sure if I am writing this at the right place so I'll go ahead and say its a technical point I need help with in what is supposed to be a simple edit.
As can be seen if you click on any of the ISBN numbers (in blue) in this section: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Philippines&oldid=1951302#Books
+
  
You are taken to the special page but, although the search box is correctly pre-populated the "Go" search button no longer works. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:26, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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If I can get help elsewhere let me know.
  
:Hmm. I'll queue it; no guarantees on timing as this is the first I've seen of this functionality.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:00, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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I started creating a page about a location I visited recently in Taiwan. I tried to add a link to another wikitravel page and it just won't work. I used the double brackets as per the wiki markup tool but it wont link to the page, which I assure you exists because I checked the title of that page over 20 times.
  
::Appears to be working as designed. It's generating the AMAZON and B&N, etc. links at the bottom of the page. The input box is just to refresh the page and generate those links. Let me know if you have info to the contrary.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:12, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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I am working on [[Fenqihu|this page]] and I am trying to add a link to Alishan National Scenic Area to the understand section, towards the end of the section. A red link is there for now.
 +
I can't even make a wikilink in this post so here is the page I am trying to make a link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alishan_National_Scenic_Area
  
==Clarification==
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Can anybody let me know what I am doing wrong?
Because of the recent [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Pratyeka&diff=prev&oldid=1949763 misunderstanding] of our policies by a long-standing Wikipedia admin, I have clarified and re-emphasised [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel%3AExternal_links&action=historysubmit&diff=1950083&oldid=1896765 our specific policies on linking to (or promoting) other travel sites that use wiki editing software here]. I doubt that many will read it in advance, but at least the clarified policy is now there to be quoted in explanation after a redaction or deletion. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
+
  
'''UPDATE''': My clarifications have now been deleted (twice).
+
I used so many wikitravel pages in the last years, now I just want to help a bit.
  
So we are now back to the hypocrytical situation of having one policy actively enforced and promulgated (at least by some IBadmins) without ever having that policy enunciated on any policy page that I am aware of. I think I'll change my user name to ''George Orwell''. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 18:48, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+
Thx [[User:Lin.wf.22|Lin.wf.22]] ([[User talk:Lin.wf.22|talk]]) 10:45, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
  
:1. WT editors are not to make changes to policies unilaterally. That is why the changes were reverted (at the request of another non-IB editor). 2. The policy in question doesn't really need a change. It's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. And it's almost entirely in the past. Thus there is no reason to amend policy, both because as it stands it is being applied consistently, and because the situation requiring that interpretation was unique and has now passed. It's time to move forward.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:06, 5 November 2012 (EST)
+
On the same topic, I found two pages with the exact same name at the top, how do I know which name to use if I want to refer to one instead of either. I tried looking in the editing mode but couldn't find the spot [[User:Lin.wf.22|Lin.wf.22]] ([[User talk:Lin.wf.22|talk]]) 10:49, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
  
::1) I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you genuinely do not think '''We do not allow (and will attempt to strenuously police and expunge) external links to, or promotion of, ''travel'' websites that are not primary sources - this policy ''includes other wikis'', whether Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licensed or not''' has been our policy for a long time or <s>I'm a Dutchman</s> the policy in question has always existed and doesn't really need a change. Instead it's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. That interpretation needs to be made explicit and prominent to avoid edit wars.
+
:Hi, thank you for your comments. I had a look, and noticed that you are trying to link to a wikipedia article, which is not allowed in our articles, so therefor you would see the red link. I have changed it to [[Alishan]] as we do have an article here at Wikitravel for this location. With regards to the two pages with the same name, can you let me know the name of the page, so I can have a look? Thanks again, and happy editing, we appreciate your efforts! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 17:36, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::2) I do think it completely Orwellian and counter productive not to explicitly warn people that they should not include links to or use the ''naughty names'' of other travel wikis in text - particularly those that have recently started operating from Wikimedia servers. Since I am not an admin I really do need an explicit policy to link to in a terse but precise and authoritative way when I excise ''naughty names or links'' if the (often ''bona fide'' but ignorant-of-our-policy-that-can-not-speak-its-name) editor is not to be left puzzled, frustrated and annoyed by my (to him, incomprehensible) edits. An example of this is where an article discussion section dating back to July 2006 was removed to the [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1951308&oldid=1950874 genuine puzzlement of an IP contributor]. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:51, 7 November 2012 (EST)
+
  
On a related but different topic, I really find it objectionable that no official announcements are being made about new admin appointments.
+
:Hi Adzas, thanks for the precision. I didn't know about this interwiki rule for wikitravel. Now, this same page name issue is related to that. The wikipedia article is much more developed and detailed than the wikitravel one. Should I just copy the stuff from one to the other? Of course adjustment would be necessary to make it traveler friendly, but still.
 +
[[User:Lin.wf.22|Lin.wf.22]] ([[User talk:Lin.wf.22|talk]]) 03:22, 26 October 2014 (EDT)
  
It is bad enough that folks are [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBMaarten&action=historysubmit&diff=1954335&oldid=1954333 arbitrarily being made an admin on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience+nomination+discussion process but secret appointments] are really not my idea of "moving on".
+
::Hello Lin.wf.22! You spotted it correctly: WikiPedia and WikiTravel don't have the same purpose, that's why it would be irrelevant to have to same content within both, wouldn't it? The page [[Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia|Cooperating with Wikipedia]] will explain you better than me; and as you used as a traveller you know it already, what is great with WT is is provides with handy, sharp info you can print and extract from your bagpack when needed. WP... Well, everybody knows you go there for details, and also that you can stick there for hours... So, to sum up, an original sentence on WT is more effective than 1 page copied from WP. Hope I helped you! [[User:PierrB|PierrB]] ([[User talk:PierrB|talk]]) 04:48, 26 October 2014 (EDT)
  
If this character is '''not''' an admin, I really deprecate that this [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3AActiveUsers&limit=50&username=IB naming loophole] has not been plugged weeks ago as I suggested! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:11, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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== [[Ratchaburi]] ==
  
:Unfortunately there's no way I know of to prevent that yet. But since we watch all new user creation, we'll catch it if it happens. Sometimes users are appointed internally as admins. No biggie. I was such a user, and look how great I've turned out :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:21, 15 November 2012 (EST)
+
Hi!
 +
Here I go again!
 +
Looking through this article, it appears to have been updated by a Thai or similar person.
 +
It is extremely difficult to work out much of what is being said, and there is also a first person comment.
 +
Please check out and advise - this is all part of my learning curve!
 +
[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 03:03, 30 October 2014 (EDT)
  
::Has [[User_talk:IBMaarten|IBMaarten]] arbitrarily been made an admin, on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience + nomination + discussion process but as a secret appointment?? Yes or No, please. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:35, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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:Hi, thanks again, well spotted, I removed the part with the first person pronoun, the rest of the article definately needs attention. If you like, feel free to adjust the text so it makes more sense, I will add it to my list as well to check it when I have a chance. You´re great, thanks! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 11:36, 30 October 2014 (EDT)
  
:::I thought I explained it? And the edit that made him an admin was clear: he's administering the Dutch site, and also working on EN. There's nothing secret, Frank. Rejoice: and welcome the new admin!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:50, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Hi Astrid, thanx for the help.
::::No, we have still not had any announcement from you, any other IBadmin or a properly appointed admin, never mind on the proper pages and you have still not answered with a "Yes".
+
Since you have allowed me a little poetic licence, I am thinking that the best bet is for me to go there next time I am in Thailand, which will be in three weeks - I rarely plan in advance, and tend to go where the mood takes me. I can check out the place and see what I can work out about the places and things mentioned, so I can rewrite them.
::::Neither was his admin status on the English language version of Wikitravel showing at: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3AActiveUsers&limit=50&username=IB at the time I posed the question above and at the time I make this edit.(I've taken a screenshot which I can post if you doubt my veracity).
+
Maybe I should delete the ones I cannot confirm or find info on, (or understand enough to rewrite).
:::::We're not mind readers, you know and you really are abusing all of our policies and processes now. As for there being nothing secret, that really is a lie as Alice makes clear above.  
+
Would this be OK?
:::::Would you now make clear (with a properly formatted diff) what exactly  was "the edit that made him an admin", please?
+
Regards
:::::And for the avoidance of doubt, I personally have no objection in principle to admins from other language versions being rapidly promoted to admin status on the EN Wikitravel. But there should be a clear announcement on the proper page(s) each time this happens and you urgently need to revise all those policy pages that you currently keep flouting. To do anything less is to destroy any chance of re-building the community that has been decimated by your autocratic and thoroughly whimsical decisions, never mind poisoning the wholehearted welcome that would otherwise be given to new (and sorely needed) wielders of the mop. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:30, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 02:45, 3 November 2014 (EST)
 +
In addition to the above, I have noted that adjacent provinces Samut Songkhram and Samut Sakhon have the same problem as above.
 +
Maybe I will try to visit all three.
 +
Regards [[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 02:51, 4 November 2014 (EST)
  
::::::I believe you can view [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_patrol_log=1 this page?] Sorry you're unhappy Frank. We're promoting anyone who gets the required community support in the required time period, and shows the best qualities to help the community move forward. Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:46, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::Sounds like you have a great trip ahead of you. It will be great to have updated information in the articles from you once you have visited the places, so yes, feel free to edit as much as you like. Have a great time! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 15:54, 5 November 2014 (EST)
  
:::::::That User rights log is not a page that can be added to anyone's watchlist and neither do I know of a way to find out what pages internally link to it. Do you seriously expect editors to load that page every few hours to find out what admin has been appointed on the English language version of Wikitravel most recently?
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==Systematic copying from another Wiki without attribution==
:::::::I note that you have still not dealt with the most pressing point: '''Explicit Clarification in writing''', on the English language version of Wikitravel, in the obvious places of the new policies and, if they are of only a temporary nature, their expected date of expiry. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:59, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Although it has never been spelt out clearly, my understanding is that IBadmins have instituted procedures that mean it is difficult if not impossible to give here the required attribution to material copied from other travel sites.
  
==Is "formatting according to our [[MoS]]" edit warring?==
+
That is why a close eye should be kept on [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Hong_Kong&diff=2256728&oldid=2256727 edits like this one].
Perhaps appropriately, given its subject matter, [[Wikitravel talk:Edit war|this policy page]] has been constructed by individual editors plunging forward and writing stuff that seemed blindingly obvious to them.
+
  
Rather refreshingly, a brand new IBadmin [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASingapore.Alice&action=historysubmit&diff=1956425&oldid=1956420 has queried] whether making persistent changes to article formatting is "''something that needs to be '''discussed first within the community'''. I'm referring to this [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel%3AEdit_war&action=historysubmit&diff=1956416&oldid=1516343] change.''"
+
I have a strong suspicion that this IP has been doing this for some while and may not realise it is a breach of copyright and potentially actionable in law.
  
Does anybody else think that (for example) when more knowledgeable editors continuously and relentlessly change formatting that does not conform to our [[Manual of Style]] (without good reason) - such as changing "150 Pesos" to the more correct "₱150" - this is edit warring?
+
There are really only two remedies:
 +
#make the required attribution (which I have already stated is difficult verging on impossible with the current settings) or
 +
#expunge the plagiarised material.
  
Who else thinks that in cases of controversy, the style manual should '''not''' trump? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
+
Please don't shoot the messenger! --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 21:41, 31 October 2014 (EDT)
  
:Edit warring is edit warring, regardless of whether one of the parties is "right" and the other party is "wrong".
+
:Please explain how I am plagiarizing if I wrote the material myself and I published it to Wikitravel before publishing it anywhere else. I'd like to know how it is actionable by law. Should I sue myself? <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 50.195.72.217|50.195.72.217]] ([[User_talk: 50.195.72.217|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/50.195.72.217|contribs]]) </small>
  
:If two people are changing the article formatting back and forth, the correct thing to do is to follow the procedure discussed in [[Wikitravel:Edit war]].  [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] 22:11, 21 November 2012 (EST)
+
:: (Edit conflict) It may be that the same IP editor has actually edited both articles at each of the two Wikis to achieve identical prose.
::Replied to you at [[Wikitravel_talk:Edit_war]] since I'm rather baffled by your imputed suggestion that we should scrap at least one of our five [[Wikitravel:Policies_and_guidelines#General_policy| foundation policies]] that: "Text and images should follow style guidelines. With rare exception, text and images should follow our Manual of style. Exceptions should gain wide consensus; in cases of controversy, the style manual trumps."  --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 22:47, 21 November 2012 (EST)
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::The quote you included contains the words "With rare exception."  That's why you need to discuss with the other party instead of edit warring with them to see whether it makes sense for this to be such an exception. Cheers, [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] 19:06, 23 November 2012 (EST)
+
  
==[[Wikitravel:Requested articles]]==
+
::If that is indeed the case, this still raises some difficulties. Trivially, the [[MoS|manuals of style]] for these two different Wiki's are not identical - and neither are the section headings. More importantly, I am not sure that either Wiki wants to be a carbon copy of the other, that certainly would cause confusion for the traveller. 
I boldly started [[Wikitravel:Requested articles]] for listing links to articles that would be useful, but do not yet exist. Would it be useful for the development of Wikitravel? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 13:14, 22 November 2012 (EST)
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:Why not? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 14:27, 22 November 2012 (EST)
+
  
=="add listing" defect==
+
::There's also the difficulty that an anonymous IP editor is just that - anonymous - and it's difficult to be sure that simultaneous edits have indeed been made by the same human being. (That would be ameliorated if you created identically named accounts here and at the other place, but still wouldn't solve the problem of copy-cat articles...) --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 00:53, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings&diff=next&oldid=1251767#Listing_order For a long while] we have had a policy of [[listing]]s being [[alphabet]]ically ordered unless there is a good reason not to.
+
  
Unfortunately this is consistently and automatically buggered by the "add listing" option that appears in blue to the right of our standard section headings of "See", "Do", "Buy", "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" that always adds the new listing to the bottom of that particular section.
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:::'''Copying''' To 50.195.72.217: it's perfectly acceptable licensing-wise to use material on both sites. For instance, I make all of my contributions in the public domain--anyone can copy what I add anywhere at any time for any purpose. There are some problems with identical information at both sites but those problems aren't legal: information that you make is something you own, so you can decide how it gets used (although once you submit it to either wiki, it will then be subject to ''their'' license restrictions). I have done the same thing myself, actually. The practical problem is that if both sites contain identical material, that creates a problem for search engines and optimization. But that's not necessarily your primary concern: [[ttcf|the traveler comes first]]. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 01:12, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
  
Is it time to change the listing order policy or recode the robot so that it understands alphabetic order? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:34, 24 November 2012 (EST)
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: The language on both wikis was the same before I made the edits and it is the same after I made the edits. If there are problems with identical info on both sites, that problem existed before I made the edits. I made the edits to WT first so if anything, the language on WV was copied. The info that I added is very useful and there is no reason to delete it. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 50.195.72.217|50.195.72.217]] ([[User_talk: 50.195.72.217|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/50.195.72.217|contribs]]) </small>
 +
::'''Attribution''' The problem of identical language is not one that necessarily concerns you: you didn't do anything legally or morally wrong by posting the same information at both sites. It's something the two communities should address corporately. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 14:52, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
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:::I remember we had a similar discussion a while ago. If a contributor decides to add his own written content to both Wikitravel and another wiki, he/she can do that, it is his/her own work. But as mentioned above, with an IP editor it is difficult to establish if it is one person who made the edit. And on the other hand, we do want original content on Wikitravel. It would definitely help if a contributor adds on the article talk page that he/she wrote the content and also added it on another wiki, to avoid having it all deleted. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 15:56, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
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::::'''IP editors''' It is no more difficult to ensure that an IP is the same person here and there than it is to ensure that a registered account is. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:09, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
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:::::I hate to disagree, Justin, since you're usually spot on, but I need to raise a quibble with the idea that editing from an IP assures the identity of the author to the same degree as editing while logged on to an account. It is entirely possible for many different humans to either sequentially or simultaneously edit from the same public library or college IP address. However, if their respective account passwords are not compromised, that is not the case when they are logged on to their account.
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:::::Obviously I would prefer it if we were adult about attribution (rather than continuing with Kim Jong Il standards of openness) but, until that happens, Adzas's suggestion is a good one... --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 20:41, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
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::::::'''IPs''' For awhile, all of Singapore had the same IP address, so back in 2005 or so, one anonymous IP had 250,000 edits to the English Wikipedia. All I mean is, if someone has the same user name here and there, we don't know it's the same person. It's a reason to think it but that's actually a good way of hiding it and impersonating someone else. Anyway. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 01:02, 2 November 2014 (EDT)
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:::::::Good point, Justin. Are you "competing with Singapore" yet with edits on WP? Your tally must be getting close (grin)... --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 01:08, 2 November 2014 (EDT)
  
==[[Colombia]]n pesos==
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'''Edits''' Something like that. I can remember back then thinking, "Wow--250,000 edits!" and there were bots that had about that many at the time, too. I was so young back then... [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 01:13, 2 November 2014 (EDT)
There are many countries around the world that use the name "dollar" and the symbol "$" for their currency. Our [[$|usual policy]] is that<br />
+
''Prices should be listed with the currency symbol that travellers will encounter, specifically the local formatting. The currency symbol should always be prefixed. Travellers should be able to assume that symbols used for multiple currencies (like $ or £) apply to the local currency. Do ''not'' use currency codes like "USD", "EUR", or "GBP" if the symbol is established.
+
  
* $100 in [[Detroit]], not US$100, 100 USD or 100 dollars
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:Awesome! You're a star (and also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits##1.E2.80.931000 rather modest]) ! --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 01:22, 2 November 2014 (EDT)
* $100 in [[Vancouver]], not CAD$100, 100 CAD or 100 dollars
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::'''Star?''' I don't know about that: maybe a big fish in a small pond. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 22:33, 2 November 2014 (EST)
* $100 in [[Wellington]], not NZD$100, 100 NZD or 100 dollars
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:::The short answer on attribution from other sources is: we don't allow content from other sources, so no attribution is necessary. We're the original source, they're the copy. Since we don't allow copied content from other sources (and since content written by the same author is not "copied" content, but original content added to more than one site), we shall always be a source of entirely original content. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Also, I think that 99.99% of the time, the idea of multiple users editing anonymously from the same IP AND copying content from another site is an extreme edge-case and we needn't worry ourselves about it. Nice work, everyone. [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 21:17, 4 November 2014 (EST)
* $100 in [[Canberra]], not AUD$100, 100 AUD or 100 dollars''<br />
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::::'''Attribution''' While this is generally true, it's not exclusively true: [[shared:Copyleft#Can_I_copy_text_and_other_content_to_Wikitravel_from_other_sites.3F]]. Plus, we [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Sites_using_InstantCommons use InstantCommons] which potentially embeds tens of millions of pieces of media into our guide. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 23:56, 4 November 2014 (EST)
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:::::I don't know what practical effect Instant Commons has for WT. It's doubtful that it's beneficial to us, so if it turned out to be a licensing issue, we would just turn it off. As to the "generally but not exclusively" part, you're right Justin -- as I said, if a writer wants to add his/her own content to more than one site, it's not copying, and no attribution is necessary. Short anser again is, we don't allow 3rd party content here. Never have. Wikitravel is the original and best free opensource travel guide because we're 100% original, for travelers, by travelers. Other sites are sad, carbon-copy wannabes, and that's fine too. We can continue to ignore them. Just like Google does. [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 19:53, 5 November 2014 (EST)
  
and I propose no change in respect of this.
+
==Remarked out "PRINT" sections==
 +
'''Do we still need them?'''
  
However, the currency of Colombia poses special dangers of inconsistency and confusion as exemplified in our [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Cartagena_%28Colombia%29&action=historysubmit&diff=1959307&oldid=1957758 Cartagena (Colombia)] article.
+
(An example is to be found immediately after [[Chicago#Districts]] and before [[Chicago#Understand]].)
  
Colombia is unusual in having an officially recognised currency symbol of "$" that (unlike Singapore, etc) is '''not''' actually used on their banknotes - where, instead, "pesos" is printed. Since prices in the tourist industry in Colombia are also often quoted in US$, <u>I propose that we use "'''pesos'''" instead of either the $ symbol or COP for Colombia currency.</u>
+
Now that there is no separate company producing a print version, do these hidden sections not contravene advice previously given about [[HTML]]?
  
This is somewhat analogous to the "Baht or ฿" situation adjudicated at [[Wikitravel_talk:Currency]] but differs in that I propose using the plural "'''pesos'''" rather than "peso" since
+
<small>(The [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ MediaWiki] software allows editors to mix in HTML markup along with standard [[Wikitravel:Wiki markup|Wiki markup]]. In general, '''HTML should be avoided''' because HTML is '''hard to edit'''. Wiki markup is designed specifically for editing on-screen in a browser, and to be really easy to edit. HTML is not. It intimidates casual editors and keeps them from making improvements to our content.
#the peso is so minute as to be almost never encountered in the singular
+
#that is the word (in Spanish) that appears on Colombian Banknotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_peso
+
  
Does anyone disagree with my proposal?
+
If HTML must be used for formatting reasons, it's hidden "behind the scenes" with [[Wikitravel:Using Mediawiki templates|Mediawiki templates]] whenever possible.  For example, disclaimers should be added with [[:Template:Disclaimerbox]] and country quickbars with [[:Template:Quickbar]], not by adding raw HTML.  Not only is this more user-friendly, but it allows updating the design of ''all'' boxes or bars in one place.
  
Discuss at [[Wikitravel_talk:Currency#Colombian_pesos]] rather than here, please! --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:21, 26 November 2012 (EST)
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Text enclosed between the special comment characters <nowiki><!-- and --></nowiki> is not displayed. This can be used to leave instructions or warnings visible only when editing the page, but should be used sparingly.)</small>
 +
--[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 17:46, 6 November 2014 (EST)
 +
:'''Print/Web''' As you can see, about a year ago, I [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Chicago&diff=2131709&oldid=2123830 removed the Web template] and also deleted a related print template. Since Wikitravel Press hasn't been functional for years and it was only used on Chicago and Disneyland articles, it seemed pointless. It certainly ''can'' be useful if someone wants to print on a large scale or if we decide that we want to make a push for style sheets and content that are unique to different media but that simply doesn't exist here now. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 19:00, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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::I'll give it a couple of days to allow opposing comments and, if there is no persuasive opposing rationale, I'll remove them on sight thereafter... --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 20:29, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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:::I guess without one the other is not necessary. Still, it's best to see if anyone has an argument against this. If not, please feel free to move forward! [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 22:22, 6 November 2014 (EST)
  
:Nobody has raised any objections so I will now make the necessary policy change. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 18:44, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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==Diving Adverts Khao Lak==
 +
I note that some diving schools advertise in more than one location. There are three in Phang Nga, two of which also advertise in Takua Pa, and in Khao Lak.
 +
They are all actually situated in Khao Lak. 
 +
Certainly they are in PhangNga Province, as is Takua Pa.
  
 +
Should they be listing in multiple sites like this? It would appear that the businesses themselves have posted the articles. Looks like unnecessary clutter to me.
 +
Please advise the rules on this one.
 +
Regards [[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 22:27, 8 November 2014 (EST)
 +
:[[Multiple]]. --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 22:33, 8 November 2014 (EST)
  
== Las Vegas ==
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Thanks for the reference.
 +
I have removed/transferred the diving schools in accordance with the rules. Comments recorded on the relevant discussion pages.
 +
[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 04:36, 10 November 2014 (EST)
  
First of all, I want to apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, but right now I am so frustrated that my head is spinning.
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==Vandalism I can not remedy==
 +
I have insufficient privileges to be able to rollback some of the vandalism of [[Special:Contributions/Pshalanoenttbr|User:Pshalanoenttbr]].
  
When I was originally planning our family vacation to Las Vegas I used the WikiTravel website as a source of research for shows, attractions and places to stay. As a first time visitor to Las Vegas, the website seemed to be a prime resource providing a lot of useful information.  
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Specifically, I get error messages when trying to revert his edit to [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Ch%C3%A2tellerault&action=history Châtellerault] -presumably because of the huge size of the changes required... --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 14:12, 12 November 2014 (EST)
  
We have since returned to Las Vegas several times and I absolutely love this destination and am planning to return many more times.
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:I clicked the previous version in the history, and then pressed Save - it worked. [[User:CheeseCrisps|CheeseCrisps]] ([[User talk:CheeseCrisps|talk]]) 14:49, 12 November 2014 (EST)
  
In anticipation of my return to Sin City in a few months I was going through my Vegas bookmarks and I noticed the Wikitravel entry. I remembered reading a few of the entertainment/shows entries and I realized that a few things didn't jive with what I had experienced in real life.  
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::Thanks! (Perhaps you have much larger cache memory than I...) --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 14:54, 12 November 2014 (EST)
  
When I went back to the website to confirm my suspicions - Sure enough, there they were!
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==City Quickbar==
Numerous inaccuries, for example:
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Hello everybody. It is quite obvious that most of the people like quickbars, and add it on their own to our article pages. As a traveller myself I absolutely enjoy being able to catch quick facts when browsing. Is this place big? What are its features? Or simply, '''where is it'''? Nothing is more talkative than a map, especially the one with regional location and zoom.
  
Blue Man Group at the Venetian (they have since moved their show to the Monte Carlo)
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So, as a traveller, I'll say I'm definitely pro quickbar, and in fact, most of the people I talked to feel the same. So why not let it be? '''However''', and it's the main counterargument, the typical country quickbar is unarguably not adapted.
Bette Midler at Caesars Palace (her residency ended Jan. 2010)
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Lance Burton at the Monte Carlo (his residency ended in Sept. 2010)
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Fab Four Live at the V Theater in Planet Hollywood (the correct title of the show is Beatleshow!)
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Viva Elvis at the Aria (closed in August)
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Human Nature at the Imperial Palace (ended their residency in November, and the Imperial Palace is now know as the Quad)
+
  
nowhere did it mention the residencies of:
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So what I suggest is to '''1)''' stop removing quickbars, as it takes time to make one, and
Elton at Caesars Palace (his residency has since ended but was current at the time)
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'''2)''' define an updated template for city quickbars. After all, we have 3 distinctive templates for cities plus the district one, and all are different from the country template. Also, a middle-sized town is no match to world-class cities such as New York City, Barcelona or Hong Kong. Therefore, I think we should allow ourselves to not copy the entire template each time, I mean to adapt it to the city need. For instance, there is no need to say Chicago uses USD and speaks English, is it? On the other hand, you have Hong Kong, with its unique currency, a distinctive language and a better level of understanding of English. Displaying the time zone for London and Manchester is absurd, but for Quebec and Vancouver, it is not.
Shania Twain at Caesars Palace
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Celine Dion at Caesars Palace
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Rod Stewart at Caesars Palace
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Tim McGraw and Faith Hill at the Venetian
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these are the most glaring ommissions
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in addition:
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Please see below a list of quickbar elements, and my comments about it.
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* '''Map''' One of the most relevant elements, let's keep it.
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* '''Flag''' Often a strong element of the citizen identity, let's keep it.
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* '''Capital''' It's absurd to tell where is the capital of a city, but it's nice to tell this place is the capital of the region, province, or cultural area. I would suggest to rename it "Status", and to use it only when it's needed. (''optional'').
 +
* '''Government''' redunding (see above) Let's cut it.
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* '''Currency''' (''optional''), it should appear only when different from the country it belongs to.
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* '''Population''': More striking than a sentence from the "Understand section", don't you think?
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* '''Language''' see above, (''optional'').
 +
* '''Religion''' (''optional'') Same ase currency and language I guess. For instance, it may worth mentioning a muslim town in India, not to mention Lebanon.
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* '''Area''' relevant.
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* '''Electricity''' (''optional'') Also I don't know any places (apart from HK again) where the plug is different from the rest in the country.
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* '''Time zone''' (''optional'')
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* '''Food, drink or handcraft specialty'''. Don't underestimate "food tourism". Just put the name, a single -word description, and describe it in the relevant section. Of course it is not easy as actually specialty are often (?) more regional than from one unique place, although it does happen.
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* '''Sport team''' Well, how about that? I know not everybody likes sport, but I also know that several people, including myself, had bad experience because confusing 2 football teams, for instance. Of course, only very famous teams should be named  with the related sport. (If possible with their colours?) Best ice-breaker ever in Europe, the US and Latine America...
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* ''' Tags''' Please keep in mind the focus is "'''What's the traveller needs/wants?'''". That's why I think supershort tags like "port:ferry", "student", "beach", "mountain", "archeology", "military", "modern arch."etc.  are a must when you need in a blink to know what you can expect from this place.
  
Comedy Shows had only 2 listings (2 listings?!?!? I couldn't believe this! Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy (the venue has since changed) are the only 2 comedy shows in ALL of Las Vegas???)
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Sooo people, let's see what you think, shall we? --[[User:PierrB|PierrB]] ([[User talk:PierrB|PierrB]]) 02:10, 13 November 2014 (EST) <small>(Timestamp added after the event, later corrected by [[User:Ttcf]] after consulting the edit history of this discussion page)</small>
not listed were: Brad Garrett's Comedy Club, Louie Anderson, George Wallace, Big Al's Comedy Club, The Improv at Harrah's, Wolf's Comedy Den, Riviera Comedy Club etc. etc.
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Tribute Shows did not list:
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:It's not obvious to me "that most of the people like quickbars". All the quickbars that you have reinstated '''in defiance of our existing policy''' were put there in the last few weeks by just '''one''' editor.
Frank Marino's Divas Las Vegas, MJ Live, Legends in Concert, Purple Reign: A Tribute to Prince, Dancing Queen, The Australian Bee Gees, Trent Carlini's the King, The Rat Pack is Back (there are currently over 4 Frank Sinatra and/or Rat Pack shows playing) etc. etc.
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Magic Shows did not list:
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:It really sets a bad precedence if you allow more than one illustrative experiment until and unless a new policy is approved and '''the relevant policy page updated'''.
Jan Rouven, Mike Hammer, Nathan Burton, Seth Grabel, The Amazing Jonathon etc. etc.
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Impressionist/impersonation shows did not list:
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:Certainly many people can waste time endlessly edit warring over whether [[North Korea]] is a "Juche people's democracy" or an "hereditary feudal dictatorship" but usually the fine nuances are best explained (where necessary for a traveller to know) in prose rather than these Wikipedia plagiarisms.
Gordie Brown and veteran impersonator Rich Little!
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You get the picture! The number of ommissions and innaccuracies was-and-is mind-boggling!
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:Also consider our (increasingly numerous) mobile users. By default, all they will first see is the laughable quickbar instead of the informative prose of our first paragraphs.
Considering that Wikitravel's Main Page proclaims that it is a "complete, up-to-date and reliable worldwide travel guide" this is unfathomable!
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At this point I decided to take it upon myself and sign up as a Wikitravel editor with the intention of becoming a "Las Vegas entertainment editor" of sorts and doing a thorough update of the "See" section (that's kind of funny actually).
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:I can illustrate some of the points by referencing [[Shanghai]]
  
Anyway ...
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:Is Shanghai such a different place from the rest of China that (exceptionally) it needs its own quickbar?
  
I spent over a week researching and documenting the current shows as well as the concerts and special events (I'll get to this in a moment) ... and this is no mean feat ...
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:Does it have its own currency?
To verify information required me to consult the venue's website, the performer's website, the authorized ticket agent's website and in some cases some entertainment revue sites. (I subscribe to dozens of Las Vegas tourism and entertainment guides and websites.)
+
  
Once I had compiled all the information, I went about adding the new entries to the appropriate categories and correcting any inaccuracies.
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:Timezone?
  
Once I was finished editing all the regular Las Vegas shows, I decided to tackle the concert listings knowing that this would be a very "hands on" endeavour requiring me to make edits on almost a daily basis.
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:Electricity details radically different from the rest of China?
  
I created a sub-heading titled "Concerts/Special Events" with 2 sub-headings under that titled "1 Night Only" and "Limited Engagement". I then started to populate the lists in chronological order based on all the information I had.
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:Does its religion differ radically from the rest of China?
  
Halfway through listing the events for December I see a notice at the top of my screen saying that "there was a conflict with some of my listings etc. etc". Upon checking my User talk page I see a message that says this:
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:Why can Shanghai's area and population not just be mentioned in prose in the ''Understand'' section, as we do with other cities where they are relevant to travellers?
"I had to delete your contribution on Las Vegas page because we do not post one time events/ attractions in destination articles. Best, IBAlex 20:19, 30 November 2012 (EST)"
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I could not believe what I was seeing!
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:Is it exceptional in China in having Mandarin as its official language?
  
To omit "1 night only" or "limited engagement" concerts/special events from a Las Vegas entertainment listings is a travesty! Las Vegas is truly the entertainment capital of the world and to ignore this by not including these listings is doing the reader a huge dis-service. I personally, would book travel based on several of these events alone and I know this to be true for many others. There has to be an exception made for Vegas ... the concerts, shows and special events are what Las Vegas is all about! That in itself is what makes Las Vegas a travel destination! You can't apply standard rules as there is no place on the planet like this!
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:Does it have its own flag that it is critical for visitors to instantly recognise?
  
This is a partial list of the concerts and special events for the month of December:
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:Why are the emergency phone numbers not listed in its brand new quickbar? (Is it because they are the same as the rest of China or simply because the newbie editor that has been going around sprinkling these redundant and misleading templates is unaware of their syntax & possibilities or just of our laboriously debated policies in general?)
Aerosmith & Cheap Trick, ZZ Top, Megadeth, The Eagles, Red Hot Chili Peppers, The Black Keys, Pitbull, The Killers, The O'Jays, Jerry Seinfeld, the Wayans Brothers, The Eagles, Jeff Dunham, UFC 155, The Ultimate Fighter Finale, The National Rodeo Finals, American Country Awards, Three Dog Night, Restless Heart, Mannheim Steamroller, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Train, Ron White, Bill Engvall, Dennis Miller & Bill O'Reilly, Journey & Loverboy, Merle Haggard, Lonestar, Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Márquez, Charlie Daniels Band, The Oak Ridge Boys, Randy Travis, LeAnn Rimes, 3 Doors Down & Daughtry, Moody Blues, Tanya Tucker, Travis Tritt, The Tragically Hip, Trace Adkins, Social Distortion, Dave Koz and many many more.
+
  
So now, in addition to all the concert/special event listings being deleted, so are all my show updates and inclusions. All of my work is now GONE! Wiped out in one fell swoop by an all-knowing, all-mighty admin.  Hours and hours of work down the toilet!
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:<big>'''Please read the discussion at [[Template_talk:Quickbar#Region_and_town_templates]]'''</big> and add any new points that may have been previously missed when we reached a consensus '''after much debate''' that quickbars should ONLY be used for articles about sovereign countries and their separately-administered territories (generally speaking, places with their own 2-character ISO country code and Internet Top-Level Domain) and that they should '''not''' be used for US states, Canadian provinces, or any other article type such as cities or regions or villages or Disney World...
  
So, as of right now according to the Las Vegas WikiTravel page: Bette Midler, Lance Burton and Viva Elvis are still performing, while Shania Twain, Rod Stewart, Tim McGraw & Faith Hill and Celine Dion are not. Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy are the only 2 comedy shows in town. Dozens and dozens of shows and venues do not exist and there are no concerts playing in town at all whatsoever.
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:Meanwhile, until and unless we come to a new consensus, I'd be grateful if you would either:
  
It's a shame.
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#Revert [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Shanghai&diff=2259560&oldid=2259337 this policy-defiant edit] or
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#Designate the [[Shanghai]] article as experimental and explain the rationale for this experiment at [[Talk:Shanghai]]... --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 03:26, 13 November 2014 (EST)
  
: I restored your edits; IMHO the deletion was bad judgement by an inexperienced admin. On the other hand, she had a point; WT is a travel guide; some of your listings may be too short-term to bother with and should be deleted as unmaintainable. Dicussion should go on the article's talk page. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 20:03, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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:: Dear [[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]], perhaps what was clear in my mind is not on the screen. I specifically mentioned what is wrong with the current quickbar for cities. And as an answer, I'd say for instance that Barcelona is (not yet) separated from [[Spain]], and yet you'll be more than welcome there if you use another language than Spanish. Canton is in mainland, totally under direct Chinese control, yet the language is different from the one used in Shanghai, etc. And yes, when I use my mobile, I like to have quick facts being obvious as long as they are relevant, so I don't need to scroll down to catch the different elements I needed.
  
I have committed myself to maintaining the short term edits. By tomorrow morning the concert listings dated December 1 will have been deleted. And so on and so on. I can appreciate how short-term listings might be termed "unmaintainable" by conventional thinking ... but ... Las Vegas is far from being a "conventional" travel destination. Thank you  [[User:Briank58|Briank58]] 20:17, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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::Wikitravel is not a religion (although even religions evolve, in time), and experimenting is a good idea, but at least let's do it with some relevant material. this is the very purpose of this thread, to determine what are the relevant elements, if any. [[User:PierrB|PierrB]] ([[User talk:PierrB|talk]]) 03:45, 13 November 2014 (EST)
  
 +
:::That Wikitravel is not a religion I can agree with, but at least do us the courtesy of reading what others have written at [[Template_talk:Quickbar#Region_and_town_templates]]'''</big> and add any new points that may have been previously missed '''there'''. You've drawn attention to the issue, but any discussion should be informed by what has been pointed out before rather than forcing me to rehash the powerful arguments made on the proper page.
  
:Briank58- thank you for your notice. I would gladly address this problem. I am here to help users and I am open to any suggestions and discussions.
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:::I know that your first language is not English so I simply can not believe that you have actually read and carefully considered all the arguments made there in the short time that elapsed before you made your response.
:Please know that your contribution on Las Vegas page is highly appreciated. I am glad to see that you understand that Wikitravel does not support short-time listings (especially 1 day listings) because it is difficult to maintain them. We do worry that when users post short-time listings on the site, they will not remove them once the listings become outdated. And this clearly is not beneficial for the site and the users... In this way, the site risks of becoming eventually cluttered with those outdated listings. That is why I removed your listings, leaving a message on your Talk Page to let you know that I did not mean anything bad. I was simply following the conventions.
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:However, when I see that you are willing to upkeep the listings and remove some of them on daily basis, I am fine with keeping them there. Again, your contribution is extremely valuable to Las Vegas site, thank you for that. Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:32, 3 December 2012 (EST)
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== Why are the Orbitz ads appearing on non-logged in users? ==
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:::What I will say here is that it sets a very poor example and precedent to flout policy '''first''' and ''then'' try and change the policy, all the while confusing newbies with non-policy compliant pages that are not clearly marked as experimental.
  
''Disclaimer: I wrote the following without knowing that the feature was supposed to be opt-in''
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:::A better order would be
: Case in point: [[Buenos Aires]], [[Hong Kong]], [[Paris]], and many other cities now have Orbitz banners in the header and the 'Get In' and 'Sleep' sections.
+
  
: I understand the need for more funding, but nobody will ever say "Oh, how convenient, now I can buy plane tickets while in the middle of reading a Wikitravel article". On its current state is useless at the best, and obtrusive at its worst.
+
:::#point out the flaws with existing policy (''on the appropriate page'')
 +
:::#reach a new consensus on a changed policy - or go back to (1)
 +
:::#if a new consensus on a changed policy is reached
 +
:::#change the policy page accordingly (this step should not be skipped!)
 +
:::#consistently implement the new changed policy
  
: Sometimes this is extremely ridiculous: just look at the article on [[Orania]].
+
:::PS: Please go back and sign and date your contributions on discussion  pages. --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 04:07, 13 November 2014 (EST)
  
For those reasons I think anyway that having it as an opt-out is a terrible idea. [[Special:Contributions/190.189.234.13|190.189.234.13]] 22:57, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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::::I think it is great to start this discussion again, thanks to a new user who has been spending quite some time creating new quickbars in various articles recently, at that time not being fully aware of the existing policies. The consensus that is mentioned here all the time was reached back in 2011. That is the great part about a wiki isn´t it, times change, people change so new opinions can be shared. Yes, I do agree that as we do have a policy that says those quickbars should not be in city articles they should be removed until it has been decided if this policy is going to be changed or not. But I also feel that while we are now discussing it again, we could leave the incorrect ones for now, we should also respect the efforts made by a contributor, who is just [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|plunging forward]]. It is more likely for a new contributor to have a look here in the pub then on the talk page of the policy page in question, so we could well have the discussion here, as suggested by [[User:IBcaldera]]. The great thing about Wikitravel is that we have contributors from all over the world. I don´t think a condescending comment about "english not being our first language" is necessary. I support the comments made by [[User:PierrB|PierrB]], let´s see what others have to say about this subject. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 07:56, 13 November 2014 (EST)
:The announcement is in the section above at [[#Travel booking tool!]]. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 23:41, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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::I know. But according to that announcement,
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::::::::I do not think that's fair (or you have misunderstood me too), [[User:Adzas|Adzas]].
:::If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
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::::::::What I actually wrote was "''I know that your first language is not English so I simply can not believe that you have actually read and carefully considered all the arguments made there in the short time that elapsed before you made your response''". That comment was made because it took ''me'' several '''hours''' to read and cogitate on the points that had been made at [[Template_talk:Quickbar]] and the pointers there to discussions elsewhere, whereas [[User:PierrB|PierrB]] had completed his response to me a mere 19 '''minutes''' after I suggested he read the previous discussion about quickbars first and only then comment further. --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 00:44, 16 November 2014 (EST)
::These ads are appearing to me as a non-logged-in user, and the only way I found to disable them is
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to log-in into an account, clearly making it opt-out.
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::Was that change intentional? In that case it's a horrible decision IMO. [[Special:Contributions/190.189.234.13|190.189.234.13]] 11:37, 2 December 2012 (EST)
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:This was discussed about a year ago and is one of the reasons why it is so quiet here. However ignoring question of whether a booking engine should be there, I find the implementation poor.
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:::::I see [[User:PierrB|PierrB]]'s point and I think that our quickbar policy can be rediscussed and changed if consensus is reached. That said, I don't see why we shouldn't add quickbars also in cities/regions articles: as [[User:PierrB|PierrB]] suggested it would be good to adapt the quickbar template to a city/region's unique features (languages spoken are just a good example). I wouldn't keep all the quickbar elements, though: some are essential ('''map'''), some others are not. I support the '''tags''' and '''food, drink or handcraft specialty''' idea, a fast way to describe what you can see/do/eat/drink/buy. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 10:25, 13 November 2014 (EST)
:I tried the booking banner from the [[Aberdeen]] page, trying to find a flight to there from Manchester. The article said that there were direct flights, so that was what I was expecting to be offered, but I was only offered a flight via Amsterdam, requiring an overnight stay and costing $407 return. But at Orbitz's own site, I was offered direct flights on the same dates for $184 return. There is also no easy way of finding out who Orbitz is, or of changing the currency from dollars.
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:Trying it on [[Orania]] gave the suggestion of Alexandria, which is a long distance away - the booking engine must know the correct airport for every page that it appears on.
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:It would be better to have the booking banner on the right hand side, above the adverts. This also gives the possibility of getting local bus and train companies to offer booking. I doubt that I will be looking to book a flight here, but a way of booking the bus from the airport would be useful. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 18:18, 3 December 2012 (EST)
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::Hi Alasdair -- I am looking into why the results are different. I tried the same search and got the same results you did. We're still working the kinks out and hope it can be a very useful tool indeed for our Wikitravelers. Please let me know if you see anything else that is suboptimal. Cheers, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 7 December 2012 (EST)
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::::::I'm all for creating a new set of quickbars for cities. It's already been said quite a bit, but not all cities are perfect reflections of their countries. In regard to mobile display, the quick stats that can be provided by a quickbar are more useful for travelers than a greatly written intro paragraph mainly because of conciseness and utility. [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 14:04, 13 November 2014 (EST)
  
==New administrators nomination==
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:::::::Great initiative [[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) to start a new template ([[Template:Towntips]]). I would suggest to use a different name though, before others start making templates for cities, villages and regions. Just a general Quickfacts or something, so it can be used for different type of locations. Obviously as we are still in the middle of the discussion we should all agree what to add to the template. I like the idea above mentioned about adding a local dish of that location, or a special craft that you can find there. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 12:17, 15 November 2014 (EST)
We have a new nomination for the administrator on Wikitravel. Please have a look at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations|Administrator nominations]]. Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 20:34, 3 December 2012 (EST)
+
  
== Town of Rochester, New York ==
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::::::::Alright so I've started by editing [[Template:Quickbar|the quickbar template]] to open the door for our new templates. Now's the time: How many new quickbars are we developing? [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 15:39, 17 November 2014 (EST)
  
There is Town of Rochester (Ulster County) [http://www.ulstertourism.info/] in New York State which is different from the larger, more familiar City of Rochester (Monroe County) in New York State. How would I add (name) the Town of Rochester here? The two Rochesters are over a hundred miles apart, not related at all. [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 18:10, 8 December 2012 (EST)
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:::::::::I would say just the one for cities/towns/villages and maybe one for regions? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:36, 18 November 2014 (EST)
* Reference: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester,_Ulster_County,_New_York] Wikipedia
+
  
: Hi Gamweb! Thank you for your message. The best way is to create a page for Town of Rochester from the scratch since it doesn't exist here. Please have a look [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Town_of_Rochester&action=edit&redlink=1]. You would need to select the best template and just [[ Wikitravel: Plunge forward| plunge forward]]. Don't worry if you don't know how to fill out all the sections- someone will be along to help with it later! Once the page is created, we would need to create a '''Disambiguation Page''', similar to [[Boston (disambiguation)| this one]] so that nobody will get confused with the destination. Please let me know if there is anything else i can help with. Greetings, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:42, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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::::::::::The Polish and German language versions of this site currently have something similar. For example see [[:de:London]] or [[:pl:Londyn]]. I would suggest that we start by trying quickbars on a few huge cities, as I doubt that much can usefully be given for a village. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 17:44, 18 November 2014 (EST)
  
::There is already a disambiguation page at [[Rochester]]. I would suggest [[Rochester_(Ulster_County)]] might be best, county names are often used when there is more than one place of the same name in a state / country. But it worth asking "what do people say locally?", when buying a bus ticket to the town from the other side of the state, as this may suggest a better name. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 18:47, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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::::::::On the Dutch versions I also found a few nice ones, ex. [[:nl:Calabrië]], (although that one is too large). Agree with above. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 18:06, 18 November 2014 (EST)
  
:::Nice!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:49, 10 December 2012 (EST)
+
==Is translation of articles allowed (or recommended) ?==
 +
May I translate your articles to other language versions (and vice versa) just like in other Wiki sites?  If yes, what procedures are needed for license purposes? [[Special:Contributions/116.80.233.53|116.80.233.53]] 02:49, 16 November 2014 (EST)
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:'''Licensing''' Do you want to have them posted here at Wikitravel or somewhere else? Either way, you need to credit the source and any works that you create from this material need to have the same license: accreditation and freely-reproducable. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 02:50, 16 November 2014 (EST)
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::As usual, Koavf is spot on. http://wikitravel.org/shared/How_to_re-use_Wikitravel_guides might be a good place to start learning more... --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 03:32, 16 November 2014 (EST)
 +
Ok, I have read the guide page. Thanks for quick response[[Special:Contributions/116.80.233.53|116.80.233.53]] 05:19, 16 November 2014 (EST)
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:Our pleasure. Are you wanting to improve the Japanese version of Wikitravel or put them to some other use, please? --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 05:40, 16 November 2014 (EST)
  
== [[Wikitravel:Requested articles| Requested articles]]==
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==Location for listings with a multi-district service area==
User Blist has recently created a [[Wikitravel:Requested articles| page]] with a list of requested articles that still don't exist on Wikitravel. Please [[Wikitravel: Plunge_forward| plunge forward]] and help us grow! Looking forward to your contributions! Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:13, 11 December 2012 (EST)
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How do I list businesses that are located in one area, but have a service area that spans multiple districts? For example, a flower shop or a tour company might service or tour an entire city. A business might also be headquartered in one are, but only provide service to another area, example: Generic Ski Training Company could be located at the city center, but the actual activity takes place in a mountain on the outskirts of town.
  
== New Page - Kerhonkson ==
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Should these listings go in 1. multiple districts 2. the root /CityName wiki page or 3. only in the district where they are headquartered?
  
I just created new page for [[Kerhonkson]], New York. It's been a while since I made a new page. Please look it over to see what's missing. (Auxiliary wikilinks) [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 22:48, 12 December 2012 (EST)
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[[User:Jptastic|Jptastic]] ([[User talk:Jptastic|talk]]) 00:30, 20 November 2014 (EST)
: Great job! Thank you! I needed to change the headline "Go next" to "Get out" because that's still the proper name Wikitravel uses for this section. We would be changing this headline soon throughout all the articles. I'm looking forward to more contributions from you. Thank you again! Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:10, 13 December 2012 (EST)
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::Sorry about that. I was working in "parallel" with another travel site at the same time (enough said). [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 16:04, 13 December 2012 (EST)
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:::No worries. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 16:35, 13 December 2012 (EST)
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* [[Ellenville]], near Kerhonkson. Give it a look over. I still have to add some photos. [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 23:18, 16 December 2012 (EST)
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: Page looks great! Are there any other destinations you are planning to work at? Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 16:39, 17 December 2012 (EST)
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==[[Wikitravel: Usable articles]]==
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:This is an interesting question that comes up a lot less frequently than you might expect. The reasons for its sparse occurrence include:
Here is a list of articles that have been [[Wikitravel:Status rating | rated]] as '''Usable''' and need some attention. Please feel free to [[plunge forward| plunge forward]] and add some information. If you think that some of the articles shouldn't be there, please let us know.  See [[Wikitravel:Article status| this page]] for a description of what qualifies an article for different statuses. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:32, 17 December 2012 (EST)
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:1) "Buy", "Drink", "Eat", "Sleep" and "See" listings invariably go in the relevant destination page where they are physically located.
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:2) Most listings for [[tour]]s are already completely disallowed. Where they're not, they will go in the '''ONE''' destination article that is most appropriate for their scope.
  
== Some and some ==
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:That really just leaves "Do" and "Cope" listings which we probably need to discuss further. (Consulates and Embassies go in the destination article they are physically located in with a mention on the country article page if that's not the capital city.)
  
I already run seahouseswebsite.co.uk for my community.  I made half a dozen or so edits to the Wikitravel page about Seahouses but what now appears on-line includes only '''some''' of those edits - in some cases leaving ungrammatical sentences. What did I do wrong?  Should I try again or is there some reason why my edits were edited?
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:To open the discussion, I'd suggest that if places of worship for a particular sect or religion are so rare that they need to be mentioned at all, they should go in a "root" article.
  
My edits included a reference to the Farne Islands.  No Wikitravel page existed so I've just written one but I'm quite sure it needs proper formatting etc.
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:At the end of the day, this may be one of those policies that are best not spelled out at all (other than at [[multiple]]) but rather best left to ''ad hoc'' decision-making as they arise.
  
Ideally can someone respond to mike@seahouseswebsite.co.uk?
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:For your Ski training example, I would tend towards the root (with possible mentions in relevant ski slope prose). --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 00:52, 20 November 2014 (EST)
[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 09:47, 18 December 2012 (EST)
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:Dear Bonniedougall! Some of the edits you made had to be deleted because you inserted too many external links on [[Seahouses| one page]] (there were 10 links leading to the same domain). Please read our [[Wikitravel:External links| external links policies]] to get more information. A couple of links on a page is ok but it is not our aim on Wikitravel to fill up the articles with external links. Anyone reading [[Seahouses]] article will see the link even if it's only one. I hope you understand.
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::As [[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] already stated, listings generally go in the page where they are located (see [[Multiple]]) and most [[Tour]] listings are simply not allowed. I wouldn't change these policies, we can always discuss exceptions in the talkpages whenever necessary. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 04:52, 20 November 2014 (EST)
: I also noticed that you created [[Farne Islands]] page. We already had a page about Farne Islands, please have a [[The Farne Islands|look]]. That is why I need to ask you to merge the information on the page you created with the existing one. We do not duplicate pages on Wikitravel. Thank you! Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:22, 18 December 2012 (EST)
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OK Alex, I've had another go which should be more compliant. And I'm suggesting that the page entitled THE Farne Islands should be scrapped.[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 06:34, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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==Should we now "recommend"?==
: Bonniedougall- would you mind putting a template on the [[Farne Islands]] page you created? The page would look nicer and more organized. In this way I would be able to delete [[The Farne Islands]]. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 11:35, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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I was perturbed by [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Hoi_An&diff=2262807&oldid=2262741 this recent edit], which restored the phrase "''Some recommended places to go are:''" in the ''Custom made shoes'' section of our [[Hoi An]] destination article.
  
== Lindisfarne ==
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For more than 7 years now we have had a distinct policy '''not to recommend''' any specific "Buy", "Do, "Drink", "Eat" or "sleep" [[listing]]s  (except, perhaps for sun block or malaria prophylactics...)
  
Having mentioned the Holy Island of Lindisfarne on 'my' Seahouses page, and there having been no Holy Island of Lindisfarne page, I have created one - ready for the Lindisfarne folk to develop.  So I have left an email with them, at[http://www.holy-island.info/], drawing their attention to the matter.
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[[wta]] has stated since [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Words_to_avoid&oldid=508721 2007]: "''Recommended by whom? Wikitravel is too big to make recommendations. Simply add descriptive listings."''
[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 08:47, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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: There is a Lindisfarne page aleady. I made yours a redirect to that. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:56, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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If anyone thinks this policy should change, please would they explain why since I think we have enough problems with [[tout]]ing already... --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2014 (EST)
  
==Improvement Ideas==
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:I don´t think this discussion is needed, I already responded to the same question you added to my [[User talk:Adzas|talk page]], a sentence was added by mistake while I was reverting a travel agent listing, that is all. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 19:03, 22 November 2014 (EST)
We are planning to revitalize Wikitravel and our community! In 2013 we would like to improve technicality and usability of the site and we are open to any ideas! Please let us know of any new features you would like to have on WT and share with us your suggestions on how to make Wikitravel better. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 14:20, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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:Please list the appropriate pages to make suggestions. --[[Special:Contributions/118.93.73.30|118.93.73.30]] 03:16, 2 January 2013 (EST)
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==Policy on free-riding tips==
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==[[Listing]] mechanism needs to be improved==
I got some second thoughts about deleting tips on how to evade a station entrance fee in Stockholm-Arlanda Airport: [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Stockholm&action=historysubmit&diff=1972045&oldid=1971916 Link to change log] What is Wikitravel's policy for riding transports, or entering venues, without a proper ticket? Is it a no-no, or are there circumstances when such information is allowed? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 19:12, 23 December 2012 (EST)
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so that
:There is an [[Wikitravel:Illegal_activities_policy]]. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 19:14, 26 December 2012 (EST)
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# it does not produce "footnote style" [[xl|external links]]
:Based on the above policy I'd say it's clear that info should be deleted. It could be argued as acceptable e.g. if there's an official requirement to pay for a ticket but everybody ignores it and it isn't controlled or sanctioned - falling somewhat loosely under "Where police or public corruption mean that the written law of the land differs substantially from the practise of law enforcement." Maaaybe applicable in this case if all local U-30 people do it. [[User:Berserk|Berserk]] 23:36, 26 December 2012 (EST)
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# it displays phone numbers contained within the "phoneextra" tag
:: Related is [[Gävle]], where I saw the need to point out that burning the Gävle Goat is illegal, since the goats have been burnt down by foreign travellers, who were deceived by locals to commit the act, with legal consequences. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 15:50, 27 December 2012 (EST)
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--[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 14:57, 25 November 2014 (EST)
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:'''Listing fixes''' That would be a technical issue for the <nowiki><listing></nowiki> tag, so you should mention this request at Shared. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 00:03, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Latest revision as of 05:07, 26 November 2014

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

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Addresses with or without city?[edit]

The address format specified in Wikitravel:Accommodation listings states Don't repeat the city name unless the "city" is different, other listings guidelines have very similar rules. However, this was not enforced for a long time and there are now many articles not following this format, showing city names (and ZIP codes) in their listings just as you would in postal addresses. (Regarding the ZIP codes, very few or possibly none of the city articles mention them.) The big question therefore is: what are we gonna do with that? STENSOFT (talk) 21:53, 2 September 2014 (EDT)

Hello there! Well, my opinion is that we should adhere to the guidelines and avoid useless repetitions (and ZIP codes, I'm not sure they can be useful here on Wikitravel). What do you think? Regards, GiulioC (talk) 04:00, 3 September 2014 (EDT)
Yesterday I undid a change by STENSOFT for this very reason. Apologies! I agree, from now on we should go with the guidelines(just as you both said) and correct all other listings as we come across them. I don't think there's a feature to change all existing listings at once and there are many, many listings with city and zip. Any other ideas?
Postal codes We definitely should include postal codes (ZIP or otherwise) because it can make things much easier for machine reading with apps. Imagine an application that could scrape ZIP codes from a guide and then just make listings or an itinerary automatically for a traveller. You can type in "eat at 8:00, museum before noon, eat at 1:00, hiking before 6:00, eat at 7:00: all within three square miles" and an app could do that based on postal codes. It's important to convert listings into machine-readable format for this purpose as well. Koavf (talk) 23:42, 20 October 2014 (EDT)
That's an interesting perspective that I had not thought about before you brought it up, Koavf.
I think it's covered by the current brief advice at Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings#Creating_an_accommodation_listing "Postal codes may be used for listings in those countries where they offer useful additional precision {currently Argentina (only 8 character CPA or Código Postal Argentino, Argentine Postal Code), Guernsey, Isle of Man, Jersey, Malta, Netherlands, Portugal and the UK}", but the same advice holds good for other types of listing I would have thought. --103.9.41.192 03:33, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

New discussion on listings in multiple places[edit]

Hi Wikitravel admins, I run a social enterprise travel web platform called backstreetacademy.com We allow anyone in developing countries to create a tour experience and list it on our platform to sell it to tourists. We focus on the underprivileged and disadvantaged in creating these experiences. We have physical offices in Kathmandu, Pokhara, Phnom Penh, Siem Reap & Luang Prabang.

We have posted our listings on these citys' wikitravel pages, some of the earlier ones are even posted by our guests, but they have all since been removed very consistently and judicously. I subsequently got in touch with one of the admins, username: IBcaldera or Jose and discussed this issue and it boils down to a general rule that wikitravel does not allow multiple listings in different city pages. After our discussion, we believe that there can be exceptions to the rule, and that this rule is preventing the flow of important information to the users and reducing the value of the wikitravel page. Here are the reasons why:

1) While websites like ours can be seen as a chain and compared to 'worldwide airlines' and 'hotel chains', i'm sure you can see that while posting the same chains has no value to a user because they already know it to be there and will not be looking for it, they are not aware of this very local business and the information will be of value to them.

2) The information we post in each city is different and customized to each city, and the products we offer in each city is also very different, making every post a customized post with again valuable information about activities travelers can do in the city, without which they will not know about on wikitravel, again reducing the value to the users

3) Choosing one destination to highlight, i guess a common solution prescribed to chains, is not very practical for this as every city is very different, and people who are searching for things to do in Siem Reap for example would obviously not look at the Kathmandu page and would thus miss out on this information.

4) We do have physical locations in each of these cities, not like a virtual website which is just based in one country and selling tours in 100 different cities. In that case they are just replicating listings already on the wikitravel page. All our experiences are however unique and sold exclusively through our website, thus preventing replication of listings and again providing value to users of wikitravel.

5) All the hosts on our platform are people living near the poverty line and would benefit from the support of socially responsible communities such as this, and this exposure would be very helpful for them. A blanket implementation of the rule would really be unnecessarily unfair to them given their non-existent ability to market their services.

I'm sure there are better ways to implement this rule than to simply delete the listings, thus if there are any recommendations, we will be happy to engage and implement them in our writing. I'm sure the addition of this listing would be beneficial to users, which is the end goal of wikitravel, and we would do anything we can to help make it so. If there are any other concerns, feel free to discuss, i'm sure we can get to a consensus for the good of all wikitravel users. Thanks and looking forward! Jamon919 (talk)04:56, 19 September 2014(EDT)

Touting and multiple listings We have policies in place about multiple listings and also touting a good/service/business, etc. because as you pointed out, it is generally the case that a large company or even outright spam will invade and descend upon a free travel guide, thus defeating the purpose of it in the first place. From what you've posted above, your organization is not like that. I feel like this tour would actually be of substantial value to travelers and he comes first in decisions on this site. Although it would be a big change to how this operates, I'm not opposed to it as such. Koavf (talk) 01:16, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
Touting and multiple listings. As Koavf rightfully pointed out we do have policies to specifically prevent this kind of behavior. Even though Jamon919 did make a great point about being eligible for an exception, I, for one, am sorry to say I find this exception a bit of hard to accept. For one thing it's not allowed by our policies, and also I think the benefit to the users by this (kind of) exception is exaggerated and the potential difficult situation such an exception will put Wikitravel in is neglected in Jamon919's argument. It's possible, that we will have many other well-intended business owners/marketers who believe the information about their branches in different cities will benefit Wikitravel users a great deal and post listings here in many different articles, which will enssentially make Wikitravel an advertisement platform. So, even though I find Jamon919's argument very strong and convincing, I'm still inclined that we stick to the rules. I will also be looking forward to other opinions about this discussion. --Binbin (talk) 02:18, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
Thanks for bringing this up Jamon919 (talk). A very tricky subject I think, as not only do you want your listing in multiple articles, the site also offers general tour planning options, which in general we also don´t allow in our articles. However, looking at the site, if I would be traveling in any of those locations, I would love to try some of the activities you offer, so I feel the information could definitely benefit the traveler. I would rather see a listing like yours, then all those chain hotel and taxi listings. I rather see places mentioned that are "hidden gems" and would make a stay extra special, then the same standard listings that a traveler can easily find on his own. But if we allow your link, many other companies will follow, so this would require clear instructions in our policies and guidelines. It already says in these guidelines that if you feel an exception is warranted, to discuss it on the discussion page of the article. So the listing can only be added to the article after a consensus is reached. If not discussed first, the listing should not be allowed. In your case I would probably vote yes to allow the exception. Again, it is a tricky one, as there are various other listings that I have removed in the past that would probably want their listings added back again, so let´s see what others (and also non-admins) have to say about this. Thanks for your input! Adzas (talk) 07:26, 19 September 2014 (EDT)


I think an important way to discuss this issue isn't to classify it as 'enforce the rules vs making an exception' case. I think that is not the issue here. More importantly at the start of every discussion should be the 'user value test': 'Does this information provide value to a traveler who is traveling to this place?' I think it's clear that a wikitravel user would want to know this option, and by preventing it from being listed, no matter the reason, is a form of censorship which places a cost on the user who is deprived of this information. Why should we be depriving the user of this information? I would believe there is a more urgent need to revisit the interpretation of the rules rather than simply enforcing it. There are many practical usage of a multiple listing, and here are 3 examples i take with reference from the Phnom Penh & Siem Reap pages.
1) Handicraft Shop ' Friends & Stuff'
This handicraft shop is listed in both Siem Reap & Phnom Penh. They have physical shops in both places, they are one brand, one company, selling possibly 90% the same products. Should they be classified as multiple listings? There is obvious value for travelers to both cities we cannot assume travelers in one city will definitely travel to the other. And if one listing is deleted, we are depriving the users of that city from knowing about this fabulous shop.
2) Restaurants 'The FCC'
The FCC is both present in Siem Reap and Phnom Penh. Its glaringly obvious that both listings should be present, because they are both star attractions in each city, and each FCC is very different from the other, and even after visiting the one in Phnom Penh, as a traveler i would still want to visit the one in Siem Reap, in fact even more as he must have had a great experience at the FCC Phnom Penh. finding out from wikitravel that there is a FCC in Siem Reap is of great value then for the traveler. Similarly, for Backstreet Academy, each location is quite different from the other, as you might see from the courses offered in each city.
3) Guesthouses
There are many examples of guesthouses having branches in both Siem Reap and Phnom Penh: Frangipani villas, Velkommen guesthouse etc. Frangipani itself has a number of listings just inside Phnom Penh, and for good reason as each hotel has a slightly different theme to it. Again it's not useful to delete hotel listings for this reason. Each listing has its own value.
From the above examples, i am sure that a flat enforcement of the rules would mean cleaning up all those as well, and how much value would be wiped off wikitravel if that was to happen. Thus its obvious its not a 'enforce the rules vs making an exception' case. It's more of how do we interpret the rules in every case? And in interpreting the rules, the most important consideration would be to consider the value to the users. Since the above examples make sense, i'm pretty sure the backstreet academy example makes sense too, as will many other business listings.Jamon919 (talk)


Hey guys, thanks for your input so far! Not trying to step on anyone's toes, but both sides are correct. In fact there is no right or wrong here, only a "how do we approach this." As Binbin said we can't allow Wikitravel to become an advertising platform that's certain. It's simply not what we do. Sites like TripAdvisor have cornered the business-oriented travel site space and they do it well. I like to think of Wikitravel in the following manner, "If I were to be planning a trip to a new destination what would I like to know?" Having this in mind, Back Street Academy's services would be an asset, but it has to be handled carefully. Yes, some business have managed to sneak past our eyes onto multiple articles, but with such a popular Wiki, it's difficult to catch every single instance. It's not that we let them through, it's that we didn't catch it. I suggest we try to come up with a new solution in which businesses can list themselves only if the content is catered to that specific location while at the same time observing our current policies on the number of listings per section.
I'm going to step back from my role as admin for a moment and speak as a traveler now. I don't come to wikitravel.com to find out the best hotel in Paris or the best tour service or the best restaurant. I go to TripAdvisor, Yelp, or any similar site for that kind of information because I can find first person reviews. I come to Wikitravel because it will show me multiple ways to get to Paris, points of interest in the city, local activities, general travel info and regulations that I should keep in mind. The businesses are icing, but they are not why I'm here.
I'm proposing an addition to business listing policy - if you can't successfully state how your business is relevant to that destination in your listing, "so long". Under this addendum, Backstreet Academy(and any other business) would be allowed on Wikitravel as long as the business made an expressed interest in proving their relevancy in their listings. Yes there are holes to my idea, holes that we can work together to solve. In the long term, we would cleanse Wikitravel of posts that are spammy and for lack of a better phrase - not up to standard. Thoughts? IBcaldera (talk) 15:26, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
Let's begin by citing the regulation that prohibits multiple listings for a business on multiple destination pages; the rule cited above prohibits multiple mentions on a SINGLE page (i.e. if a particular hotel also has a bar that's "famous" and could be listed on its own). Next, if a change is proposed, it must be in the form of a regulation that can be applied evenly by all editors. Saying the business must make a case for whether it is "relevant" will only lead to everyone saying they are relevant because they are located in that destination, and it turns the decision into a subjective one; i.e. this is "worthy" and that is not. I don't see that as helping, and I don't see how it keeps the Hilton from being able to add listings for every hotel they own in the world, which we do not want. IBobi (talk) 20:51, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
Hello guys, what an interesting debate here! I have to say that I understand each one's point of view, but I think we should stick to our guidelines: even though a company such as Backstreet Academy indeed offers a valuable service for tourists (and I would probably use such a service if I travelled in that region) I think that allowing to insert a listing in every page might attract many other businesses claiming to be “valuable” for any reason. That's why I totally agree with Binbin, we can't allow Wikitravel to become an advertisement platform, it's not WT's purpose. I fear that this could trigger endless discussions here on the Pub or in the articles' talkpages or, worse, edit-wars which is something I'd really hate to see on Wikitravel. If we decide for exceptions (or an addition as suggested by IBcaldera - it's a good idea), then the criteria for these exceptions/additions must be clearly stated on the guidelines or the debate will never end. GiulioC (talk) 04:58, 21 September 2014 (EDT)
Hi everyone, i see your worries about not sticking to the guidelines, but i think if many of us agree about the value of a listing and how it would help in our own travel planning, then the key should be about how to revise the guideline rather than agreeing something has value and then saying it shouldnt be there because the guidelines say so. Guidelines are here to ensure wikitravel stays relevant and valuable to users, and if we are sticking to it to destroy value, then whats the point?

Regarding the influx of businesses and chains saying they are of value, i think: 1) This is a slippery slope argument. 1 business doing so doesn't mean all others will also do so. Secondly, it's not for the business to claim value, its for the admins or users to claim value. Of course every business will claim it has value, but it should not be up to them to justify. It should be for you guys to determine. I don't know how you guys decide things, but it probably can be done the same way with an added guideline of how admins should consider value to the community. Again nothing for business owners to decide besides providing more information if it is debatable.

2) Big chains like everyone mentions which doesn't have value really don't careabout listing on wikitravel. Hilton like someone mentioned simply isn't going to spend effort doing this or debating about its value. What you are afraid of is not going to happen, in this particular scenario.

I'm pretty sure the guideline for an admin to decide if it has value is enough to weed out nonsensical or spammy listings, and as long as a few admins decide that it does have value, then there will be a group of people who would be happy to know about this information. Again, i think the freedom of a wiki, the non-censorship are what embodies such a community, with the exceptions of malicious spammy people who can be blocked, this sort of censorship is really going against the core values of an open source community. Jamon919

Actually, Jamon, this happens constantly. Big corporations hire smaller marketing firms to add their listings to Wikitravel for the same reason you want your listing here: to drive sales. IBobi (talk) 19:00, 23 September 2014 (EDT)
Spamming IBobi is right--spam is a serious problem here. If we were to allow some exception or change to the rules, it would have to be in a structured or predictable way. As though there were specific affiliates for Wikitravel who were agreed upon by the community. The tricky part about that is that it opens up the door to the site being less free and objectively helpful to travelers and it risks an endless stream of "Why not this?" exceptions... Koavf (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
As I also said before, a tricky subject....but we can also look at it from a different angle. Instead of debating whether a link should be allowed, why not focus on the main aim of Wikitravel, which is adding valuable information for our travelers. If your business is offering a great experience, why not describe the sights that can be seen in your location, so travelers want to visit the location, and on your user page just add your business name (no advertising, but you can associate yourself with your business on your user page). If a traveler feels your information is helpful he/she may check out your user page, to find out more about you and possibly your business. If they then want to contact you, that is great, and in the meantime we have great valuable information in the article itself. We are not an advertising platform, there are other sites for this, contributors should remember this. Just my thought for the day. Adzas (talk) 05:20, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
After reading everyone's thoughts, I have to agree. The pros don't outweigh the cons. Jamon919 thank you for bringing this up, please accept our apologies on our community's decision. We'd be happy to host your listing in what you believe is your flagship location. Please be assured one of our duties as admins is to catch spammers in multiple articles, we are doing the best we can with the info the system shows us! If you need anything at all please feel free to reach out to myself or anyone who participated in this discussion. I personally know they practice some of the best judgement I've come across during my time here! IBcaldera (talk) 14:30, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

Merging many articles into one?[edit]

Hello people! I've been recently working on all the city articles for the South Bay and trying to make them into somewhat usable articles. However, it doesn't seem like any one city in this region really fills up an entire article neither are many of the cities a tourist destination. So I've been playing with the idea of merging all of the two dozen city articles into the one South Bay regional article with sub-regions to preserve all the info from past edits. Some of the articles I've worked on here are big on transportation but small on real substance (like, what to do, where to stay, etc.) Also, it would make it easier for a traveler to find all of the things they want without having to sift through boring city articles. Does that sound like a good idea? Jrunna runna (talk) 04:47, 26 September 2014 (EDT)

Hi Jrunna runna! The page Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy mentions something you may find interesting: Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy#Other divisions. Sounds like a go to me, but please have a look on it and let's see what other people say. Cheers! PierrB (talk) 11:20, 26 September 2014 (EDT)

Slowing the spammers' deluge[edit]

I notice that many spammers create accounts only so that they can seed their user page and newly created articles with new external links.

Since few genuine new account creators will think they need to immediately create user pages or new articles with external links, why not institute fail-safe precautions:

Institute a script to immediately and automatically block (with an appropriate message on their talk page but leave open their ability to e-mail)

  • a) all new accounts who create an external link on their user page within 30 days
  • b) all all new accounts who create a new article with an external link within 30 days

The "appropriate message" would point out the reason for the block and explain how it can be appealed. --92.30.241.130 20:53, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

True But this would require a technical fix from the team at Shared. Also, anyone who's even moderately good at spamming will just set their bots to wait X days before adding links. It will stop some spam (probably most!) but it's not perfect. Koavf (talk) 22:58, 13 October 2014 (EDT)
Even a 30% reduction would give hard-working admins such as yourself more time to concentrate on more interesting and substantive edits.
The rules can also be refined - for example, apply the procedures outlined above to those accounts that have made no intervening edits that did not add external links.
Looking at the history of this Travellers' Pub over the last year or so, I do realise that few if any good suggestions are ever acted upon. Does that mean that technical support for this website has now ceased? --92.30.244.53 09:16, 14 October 2014 (EDT)
Tech support "Ceased" is a bit strong but there are regular complaints about bugs, features, etc. Koavf (talk) 14:44, 14 October 2014 (EDT)
There is one little change you could make, Koavf...--92.30.244.53 18:59, 18 October 2014 (EDT)

I enjoyed putting the toppings on the pizza and herding sheep, but how are blind folks expected to pass the new (or old) captcha? --103.9.41.192 01:58, 5 November 2014 (EST)

Editing ghost trick[edit]

Firstly, I am not sure if I am writing this at the right place so I'll go ahead and say its a technical point I need help with in what is supposed to be a simple edit.

If I can get help elsewhere let me know.

I started creating a page about a location I visited recently in Taiwan. I tried to add a link to another wikitravel page and it just won't work. I used the double brackets as per the wiki markup tool but it wont link to the page, which I assure you exists because I checked the title of that page over 20 times.

I am working on this page and I am trying to add a link to Alishan National Scenic Area to the understand section, towards the end of the section. A red link is there for now. I can't even make a wikilink in this post so here is the page I am trying to make a link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alishan_National_Scenic_Area

Can anybody let me know what I am doing wrong?

I used so many wikitravel pages in the last years, now I just want to help a bit.

Thx Lin.wf.22 (talk) 10:45, 25 October 2014 (EDT)

On the same topic, I found two pages with the exact same name at the top, how do I know which name to use if I want to refer to one instead of either. I tried looking in the editing mode but couldn't find the spot Lin.wf.22 (talk) 10:49, 25 October 2014 (EDT)

Hi, thank you for your comments. I had a look, and noticed that you are trying to link to a wikipedia article, which is not allowed in our articles, so therefor you would see the red link. I have changed it to Alishan as we do have an article here at Wikitravel for this location. With regards to the two pages with the same name, can you let me know the name of the page, so I can have a look? Thanks again, and happy editing, we appreciate your efforts! Adzas (talk) 17:36, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
Hi Adzas, thanks for the precision. I didn't know about this interwiki rule for wikitravel. Now, this same page name issue is related to that. The wikipedia article is much more developed and detailed than the wikitravel one. Should I just copy the stuff from one to the other? Of course adjustment would be necessary to make it traveler friendly, but still.

Lin.wf.22 (talk) 03:22, 26 October 2014 (EDT)

Hello Lin.wf.22! You spotted it correctly: WikiPedia and WikiTravel don't have the same purpose, that's why it would be irrelevant to have to same content within both, wouldn't it? The page Cooperating with Wikipedia will explain you better than me; and as you used as a traveller you know it already, what is great with WT is is provides with handy, sharp info you can print and extract from your bagpack when needed. WP... Well, everybody knows you go there for details, and also that you can stick there for hours... So, to sum up, an original sentence on WT is more effective than 1 page copied from WP. Hope I helped you! PierrB (talk) 04:48, 26 October 2014 (EDT)

Ratchaburi[edit]

Hi! Here I go again! Looking through this article, it appears to have been updated by a Thai or similar person. It is extremely difficult to work out much of what is being said, and there is also a first person comment. Please check out and advise - this is all part of my learning curve! Avemario (talk) 03:03, 30 October 2014 (EDT)

Hi, thanks again, well spotted, I removed the part with the first person pronoun, the rest of the article definately needs attention. If you like, feel free to adjust the text so it makes more sense, I will add it to my list as well to check it when I have a chance. You´re great, thanks! Adzas (talk) 11:36, 30 October 2014 (EDT)

Hi Astrid, thanx for the help. Since you have allowed me a little poetic licence, I am thinking that the best bet is for me to go there next time I am in Thailand, which will be in three weeks - I rarely plan in advance, and tend to go where the mood takes me. I can check out the place and see what I can work out about the places and things mentioned, so I can rewrite them. Maybe I should delete the ones I cannot confirm or find info on, (or understand enough to rewrite). Would this be OK? Regards Avemario (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2014 (EST) In addition to the above, I have noted that adjacent provinces Samut Songkhram and Samut Sakhon have the same problem as above. Maybe I will try to visit all three. Regards Avemario (talk) 02:51, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Sounds like you have a great trip ahead of you. It will be great to have updated information in the articles from you once you have visited the places, so yes, feel free to edit as much as you like. Have a great time! Adzas (talk) 15:54, 5 November 2014 (EST)

Systematic copying from another Wiki without attribution[edit]

Although it has never been spelt out clearly, my understanding is that IBadmins have instituted procedures that mean it is difficult if not impossible to give here the required attribution to material copied from other travel sites.

That is why a close eye should be kept on edits like this one.

I have a strong suspicion that this IP has been doing this for some while and may not realise it is a breach of copyright and potentially actionable in law.

There are really only two remedies:

  1. make the required attribution (which I have already stated is difficult verging on impossible with the current settings) or
  2. expunge the plagiarised material.

Please don't shoot the messenger! --Ttcf (talk) 21:41, 31 October 2014 (EDT)

Please explain how I am plagiarizing if I wrote the material myself and I published it to Wikitravel before publishing it anywhere else. I'd like to know how it is actionable by law. Should I sue myself? —The preceding comment was added by 50.195.72.217 (talkcontribs)
(Edit conflict) It may be that the same IP editor has actually edited both articles at each of the two Wikis to achieve identical prose.
If that is indeed the case, this still raises some difficulties. Trivially, the manuals of style for these two different Wiki's are not identical - and neither are the section headings. More importantly, I am not sure that either Wiki wants to be a carbon copy of the other, that certainly would cause confusion for the traveller.
There's also the difficulty that an anonymous IP editor is just that - anonymous - and it's difficult to be sure that simultaneous edits have indeed been made by the same human being. (That would be ameliorated if you created identically named accounts here and at the other place, but still wouldn't solve the problem of copy-cat articles...) --Ttcf (talk) 00:53, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
Copying To 50.195.72.217: it's perfectly acceptable licensing-wise to use material on both sites. For instance, I make all of my contributions in the public domain--anyone can copy what I add anywhere at any time for any purpose. There are some problems with identical information at both sites but those problems aren't legal: information that you make is something you own, so you can decide how it gets used (although once you submit it to either wiki, it will then be subject to their license restrictions). I have done the same thing myself, actually. The practical problem is that if both sites contain identical material, that creates a problem for search engines and optimization. But that's not necessarily your primary concern: the traveler comes first. Koavf (talk) 01:12, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
The language on both wikis was the same before I made the edits and it is the same after I made the edits. If there are problems with identical info on both sites, that problem existed before I made the edits. I made the edits to WT first so if anything, the language on WV was copied. The info that I added is very useful and there is no reason to delete it. —The preceding comment was added by 50.195.72.217 (talkcontribs)
Attribution The problem of identical language is not one that necessarily concerns you: you didn't do anything legally or morally wrong by posting the same information at both sites. It's something the two communities should address corporately. Koavf (talk) 14:52, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
I remember we had a similar discussion a while ago. If a contributor decides to add his own written content to both Wikitravel and another wiki, he/she can do that, it is his/her own work. But as mentioned above, with an IP editor it is difficult to establish if it is one person who made the edit. And on the other hand, we do want original content on Wikitravel. It would definitely help if a contributor adds on the article talk page that he/she wrote the content and also added it on another wiki, to avoid having it all deleted. Adzas (talk) 15:56, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
IP editors It is no more difficult to ensure that an IP is the same person here and there than it is to ensure that a registered account is. Koavf (talk) 16:09, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
I hate to disagree, Justin, since you're usually spot on, but I need to raise a quibble with the idea that editing from an IP assures the identity of the author to the same degree as editing while logged on to an account. It is entirely possible for many different humans to either sequentially or simultaneously edit from the same public library or college IP address. However, if their respective account passwords are not compromised, that is not the case when they are logged on to their account.
Obviously I would prefer it if we were adult about attribution (rather than continuing with Kim Jong Il standards of openness) but, until that happens, Adzas's suggestion is a good one... --Ttcf (talk) 20:41, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
IPs For awhile, all of Singapore had the same IP address, so back in 2005 or so, one anonymous IP had 250,000 edits to the English Wikipedia. All I mean is, if someone has the same user name here and there, we don't know it's the same person. It's a reason to think it but that's actually a good way of hiding it and impersonating someone else. Anyway. Koavf (talk) 01:02, 2 November 2014 (EDT)
Good point, Justin. Are you "competing with Singapore" yet with edits on WP? Your tally must be getting close (grin)... --Ttcf (talk) 01:08, 2 November 2014 (EDT)

Edits Something like that. I can remember back then thinking, "Wow--250,000 edits!" and there were bots that had about that many at the time, too. I was so young back then... Koavf (talk) 01:13, 2 November 2014 (EDT)

Awesome! You're a star (and also rather modest) ! --Ttcf (talk) 01:22, 2 November 2014 (EDT)
Star? I don't know about that: maybe a big fish in a small pond. Koavf (talk) 22:33, 2 November 2014 (EST)
The short answer on attribution from other sources is: we don't allow content from other sources, so no attribution is necessary. We're the original source, they're the copy. Since we don't allow copied content from other sources (and since content written by the same author is not "copied" content, but original content added to more than one site), we shall always be a source of entirely original content. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Also, I think that 99.99% of the time, the idea of multiple users editing anonymously from the same IP AND copying content from another site is an extreme edge-case and we needn't worry ourselves about it. Nice work, everyone. IBobi (talk) 21:17, 4 November 2014 (EST)
Attribution While this is generally true, it's not exclusively true: shared:Copyleft#Can_I_copy_text_and_other_content_to_Wikitravel_from_other_sites.3F. Plus, we use InstantCommons which potentially embeds tens of millions of pieces of media into our guide. Koavf (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2014 (EST)
I don't know what practical effect Instant Commons has for WT. It's doubtful that it's beneficial to us, so if it turned out to be a licensing issue, we would just turn it off. As to the "generally but not exclusively" part, you're right Justin -- as I said, if a writer wants to add his/her own content to more than one site, it's not copying, and no attribution is necessary. Short anser again is, we don't allow 3rd party content here. Never have. Wikitravel is the original and best free opensource travel guide because we're 100% original, for travelers, by travelers. Other sites are sad, carbon-copy wannabes, and that's fine too. We can continue to ignore them. Just like Google does. IBobi (talk) 19:53, 5 November 2014 (EST)

Remarked out "PRINT" sections[edit]

Do we still need them?

(An example is to be found immediately after Chicago#Districts and before Chicago#Understand.)

Now that there is no separate company producing a print version, do these hidden sections not contravene advice previously given about HTML?

(The MediaWiki software allows editors to mix in HTML markup along with standard Wiki markup. In general, HTML should be avoided because HTML is hard to edit. Wiki markup is designed specifically for editing on-screen in a browser, and to be really easy to edit. HTML is not. It intimidates casual editors and keeps them from making improvements to our content.

If HTML must be used for formatting reasons, it's hidden "behind the scenes" with Mediawiki templates whenever possible. For example, disclaimers should be added with Template:Disclaimerbox and country quickbars with Template:Quickbar, not by adding raw HTML. Not only is this more user-friendly, but it allows updating the design of all boxes or bars in one place.

Text enclosed between the special comment characters <!-- and --> is not displayed. This can be used to leave instructions or warnings visible only when editing the page, but should be used sparingly.) --Ttcf (talk) 17:46, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Print/Web As you can see, about a year ago, I removed the Web template and also deleted a related print template. Since Wikitravel Press hasn't been functional for years and it was only used on Chicago and Disneyland articles, it seemed pointless. It certainly can be useful if someone wants to print on a large scale or if we decide that we want to make a push for style sheets and content that are unique to different media but that simply doesn't exist here now. Koavf (talk) 19:00, 6 November 2014 (EST)
I'll give it a couple of days to allow opposing comments and, if there is no persuasive opposing rationale, I'll remove them on sight thereafter... --Ttcf (talk) 20:29, 6 November 2014 (EST)
I guess without one the other is not necessary. Still, it's best to see if anyone has an argument against this. If not, please feel free to move forward! IBcaldera (talk) 22:22, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Diving Adverts Khao Lak[edit]

I note that some diving schools advertise in more than one location. There are three in Phang Nga, two of which also advertise in Takua Pa, and in Khao Lak. They are all actually situated in Khao Lak. Certainly they are in PhangNga Province, as is Takua Pa.

Should they be listing in multiple sites like this? It would appear that the businesses themselves have posted the articles. Looks like unnecessary clutter to me. Please advise the rules on this one. Regards Avemario (talk) 22:27, 8 November 2014 (EST)

Multiple. --Ttcf (talk) 22:33, 8 November 2014 (EST)

Thanks for the reference. I have removed/transferred the diving schools in accordance with the rules. Comments recorded on the relevant discussion pages. Avemario (talk) 04:36, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Vandalism I can not remedy[edit]

I have insufficient privileges to be able to rollback some of the vandalism of User:Pshalanoenttbr.

Specifically, I get error messages when trying to revert his edit to Châtellerault -presumably because of the huge size of the changes required... --Ttcf (talk) 14:12, 12 November 2014 (EST)

I clicked the previous version in the history, and then pressed Save - it worked. CheeseCrisps (talk) 14:49, 12 November 2014 (EST)
Thanks! (Perhaps you have much larger cache memory than I...) --Ttcf (talk) 14:54, 12 November 2014 (EST)

City Quickbar[edit]

Hello everybody. It is quite obvious that most of the people like quickbars, and add it on their own to our article pages. As a traveller myself I absolutely enjoy being able to catch quick facts when browsing. Is this place big? What are its features? Or simply, where is it? Nothing is more talkative than a map, especially the one with regional location and zoom.

So, as a traveller, I'll say I'm definitely pro quickbar, and in fact, most of the people I talked to feel the same. So why not let it be? However, and it's the main counterargument, the typical country quickbar is unarguably not adapted.

So what I suggest is to 1) stop removing quickbars, as it takes time to make one, and 2) define an updated template for city quickbars. After all, we have 3 distinctive templates for cities plus the district one, and all are different from the country template. Also, a middle-sized town is no match to world-class cities such as New York City, Barcelona or Hong Kong. Therefore, I think we should allow ourselves to not copy the entire template each time, I mean to adapt it to the city need. For instance, there is no need to say Chicago uses USD and speaks English, is it? On the other hand, you have Hong Kong, with its unique currency, a distinctive language and a better level of understanding of English. Displaying the time zone for London and Manchester is absurd, but for Quebec and Vancouver, it is not.

Please see below a list of quickbar elements, and my comments about it.

  • Map One of the most relevant elements, let's keep it.
  • Flag Often a strong element of the citizen identity, let's keep it.
  • Capital It's absurd to tell where is the capital of a city, but it's nice to tell this place is the capital of the region, province, or cultural area. I would suggest to rename it "Status", and to use it only when it's needed. (optional).
  • Government redunding (see above) Let's cut it.
  • Currency (optional), it should appear only when different from the country it belongs to.
  • Population: More striking than a sentence from the "Understand section", don't you think?
  • Language see above, (optional).
  • Religion (optional) Same ase currency and language I guess. For instance, it may worth mentioning a muslim town in India, not to mention Lebanon.
  • Area relevant.
  • Electricity (optional) Also I don't know any places (apart from HK again) where the plug is different from the rest in the country.
  • Time zone (optional)
  • Food, drink or handcraft specialty. Don't underestimate "food tourism". Just put the name, a single -word description, and describe it in the relevant section. Of course it is not easy as actually specialty are often (?) more regional than from one unique place, although it does happen.
  • Sport team Well, how about that? I know not everybody likes sport, but I also know that several people, including myself, had bad experience because confusing 2 football teams, for instance. Of course, only very famous teams should be named with the related sport. (If possible with their colours?) Best ice-breaker ever in Europe, the US and Latine America...
  • Tags Please keep in mind the focus is "What's the traveller needs/wants?". That's why I think supershort tags like "port:ferry", "student", "beach", "mountain", "archeology", "military", "modern arch."etc. are a must when you need in a blink to know what you can expect from this place.

Sooo people, let's see what you think, shall we? --PierrB (PierrB) 02:10, 13 November 2014 (EST) (Timestamp added after the event, later corrected by User:Ttcf after consulting the edit history of this discussion page)

It's not obvious to me "that most of the people like quickbars". All the quickbars that you have reinstated in defiance of our existing policy were put there in the last few weeks by just one editor.
It really sets a bad precedence if you allow more than one illustrative experiment until and unless a new policy is approved and the relevant policy page updated.
Certainly many people can waste time endlessly edit warring over whether North Korea is a "Juche people's democracy" or an "hereditary feudal dictatorship" but usually the fine nuances are best explained (where necessary for a traveller to know) in prose rather than these Wikipedia plagiarisms.
Also consider our (increasingly numerous) mobile users. By default, all they will first see is the laughable quickbar instead of the informative prose of our first paragraphs.
I can illustrate some of the points by referencing Shanghai
Is Shanghai such a different place from the rest of China that (exceptionally) it needs its own quickbar?
Does it have its own currency?
Timezone?
Electricity details radically different from the rest of China?
Does its religion differ radically from the rest of China?
Why can Shanghai's area and population not just be mentioned in prose in the Understand section, as we do with other cities where they are relevant to travellers?
Is it exceptional in China in having Mandarin as its official language?
Does it have its own flag that it is critical for visitors to instantly recognise?
Why are the emergency phone numbers not listed in its brand new quickbar? (Is it because they are the same as the rest of China or simply because the newbie editor that has been going around sprinkling these redundant and misleading templates is unaware of their syntax & possibilities or just of our laboriously debated policies in general?)
Please read the discussion at Template_talk:Quickbar#Region_and_town_templates and add any new points that may have been previously missed when we reached a consensus after much debate that quickbars should ONLY be used for articles about sovereign countries and their separately-administered territories (generally speaking, places with their own 2-character ISO country code and Internet Top-Level Domain) and that they should not be used for US states, Canadian provinces, or any other article type such as cities or regions or villages or Disney World...
Meanwhile, until and unless we come to a new consensus, I'd be grateful if you would either:
  1. Revert this policy-defiant edit or
  2. Designate the Shanghai article as experimental and explain the rationale for this experiment at Talk:Shanghai... --Ttcf (talk) 03:26, 13 November 2014 (EST)
Dear Ttcf, perhaps what was clear in my mind is not on the screen. I specifically mentioned what is wrong with the current quickbar for cities. And as an answer, I'd say for instance that Barcelona is (not yet) separated from Spain, and yet you'll be more than welcome there if you use another language than Spanish. Canton is in mainland, totally under direct Chinese control, yet the language is different from the one used in Shanghai, etc. And yes, when I use my mobile, I like to have quick facts being obvious as long as they are relevant, so I don't need to scroll down to catch the different elements I needed.
Wikitravel is not a religion (although even religions evolve, in time), and experimenting is a good idea, but at least let's do it with some relevant material. this is the very purpose of this thread, to determine what are the relevant elements, if any. PierrB (talk) 03:45, 13 November 2014 (EST)
That Wikitravel is not a religion I can agree with, but at least do us the courtesy of reading what others have written at Template_talk:Quickbar#Region_and_town_templates</big> and add any new points that may have been previously missed there. You've drawn attention to the issue, but any discussion should be informed by what has been pointed out before rather than forcing me to rehash the powerful arguments made on the proper page.
I know that your first language is not English so I simply can not believe that you have actually read and carefully considered all the arguments made there in the short time that elapsed before you made your response.
What I will say here is that it sets a very poor example and precedent to flout policy first and then try and change the policy, all the while confusing newbies with non-policy compliant pages that are not clearly marked as experimental.
A better order would be
  1. point out the flaws with existing policy (on the appropriate page)
  2. reach a new consensus on a changed policy - or go back to (1)
  3. if a new consensus on a changed policy is reached
  4. change the policy page accordingly (this step should not be skipped!)
  5. consistently implement the new changed policy
PS: Please go back and sign and date your contributions on discussion pages. --Ttcf (talk) 04:07, 13 November 2014 (EST)
I think it is great to start this discussion again, thanks to a new user who has been spending quite some time creating new quickbars in various articles recently, at that time not being fully aware of the existing policies. The consensus that is mentioned here all the time was reached back in 2011. That is the great part about a wiki isn´t it, times change, people change so new opinions can be shared. Yes, I do agree that as we do have a policy that says those quickbars should not be in city articles they should be removed until it has been decided if this policy is going to be changed or not. But I also feel that while we are now discussing it again, we could leave the incorrect ones for now, we should also respect the efforts made by a contributor, who is just plunging forward. It is more likely for a new contributor to have a look here in the pub then on the talk page of the policy page in question, so we could well have the discussion here, as suggested by User:IBcaldera. The great thing about Wikitravel is that we have contributors from all over the world. I don´t think a condescending comment about "english not being our first language" is necessary. I support the comments made by PierrB, let´s see what others have to say about this subject. Adzas (talk) 07:56, 13 November 2014 (EST)
I do not think that's fair (or you have misunderstood me too), Adzas.
What I actually wrote was "I know that your first language is not English so I simply can not believe that you have actually read and carefully considered all the arguments made there in the short time that elapsed before you made your response". That comment was made because it took me several hours to read and cogitate on the points that had been made at Template_talk:Quickbar and the pointers there to discussions elsewhere, whereas PierrB had completed his response to me a mere 19 minutes after I suggested he read the previous discussion about quickbars first and only then comment further. --Ttcf (talk) 00:44, 16 November 2014 (EST)
I see PierrB's point and I think that our quickbar policy can be rediscussed and changed if consensus is reached. That said, I don't see why we shouldn't add quickbars also in cities/regions articles: as PierrB suggested it would be good to adapt the quickbar template to a city/region's unique features (languages spoken are just a good example). I wouldn't keep all the quickbar elements, though: some are essential (map), some others are not. I support the tags and food, drink or handcraft specialty idea, a fast way to describe what you can see/do/eat/drink/buy. GiulioC (talk) 10:25, 13 November 2014 (EST)
I'm all for creating a new set of quickbars for cities. It's already been said quite a bit, but not all cities are perfect reflections of their countries. In regard to mobile display, the quick stats that can be provided by a quickbar are more useful for travelers than a greatly written intro paragraph mainly because of conciseness and utility. IBcaldera (talk) 14:04, 13 November 2014 (EST)
Great initiative Ttcf (talk) to start a new template (Template:Towntips). I would suggest to use a different name though, before others start making templates for cities, villages and regions. Just a general Quickfacts or something, so it can be used for different type of locations. Obviously as we are still in the middle of the discussion we should all agree what to add to the template. I like the idea above mentioned about adding a local dish of that location, or a special craft that you can find there. Adzas (talk) 12:17, 15 November 2014 (EST)
Alright so I've started by editing the quickbar template to open the door for our new templates. Now's the time: How many new quickbars are we developing? IBcaldera (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2014 (EST)
I would say just the one for cities/towns/villages and maybe one for regions? Adzas (talk) 09:36, 18 November 2014 (EST)
The Polish and German language versions of this site currently have something similar. For example see de:London or pl:Londyn. I would suggest that we start by trying quickbars on a few huge cities, as I doubt that much can usefully be given for a village. AlasdairW (talk) 17:44, 18 November 2014 (EST)
On the Dutch versions I also found a few nice ones, ex. nl:Calabrië, (although that one is too large). Agree with above. Adzas (talk) 18:06, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Is translation of articles allowed (or recommended) ?[edit]

May I translate your articles to other language versions (and vice versa) just like in other Wiki sites? If yes, what procedures are needed for license purposes? 116.80.233.53 02:49, 16 November 2014 (EST)

Licensing Do you want to have them posted here at Wikitravel or somewhere else? Either way, you need to credit the source and any works that you create from this material need to have the same license: accreditation and freely-reproducable. Koavf (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2014 (EST)
As usual, Koavf is spot on. http://wikitravel.org/shared/How_to_re-use_Wikitravel_guides might be a good place to start learning more... --Ttcf (talk) 03:32, 16 November 2014 (EST)

Ok, I have read the guide page. Thanks for quick response116.80.233.53 05:19, 16 November 2014 (EST)

Our pleasure. Are you wanting to improve the Japanese version of Wikitravel or put them to some other use, please? --Ttcf (talk) 05:40, 16 November 2014 (EST)

Location for listings with a multi-district service area[edit]

How do I list businesses that are located in one area, but have a service area that spans multiple districts? For example, a flower shop or a tour company might service or tour an entire city. A business might also be headquartered in one are, but only provide service to another area, example: Generic Ski Training Company could be located at the city center, but the actual activity takes place in a mountain on the outskirts of town.

Should these listings go in 1. multiple districts 2. the root /CityName wiki page or 3. only in the district where they are headquartered?

Jptastic (talk) 00:30, 20 November 2014 (EST)

This is an interesting question that comes up a lot less frequently than you might expect. The reasons for its sparse occurrence include:
1) "Buy", "Drink", "Eat", "Sleep" and "See" listings invariably go in the relevant destination page where they are physically located.
2) Most listings for tours are already completely disallowed. Where they're not, they will go in the ONE destination article that is most appropriate for their scope.
That really just leaves "Do" and "Cope" listings which we probably need to discuss further. (Consulates and Embassies go in the destination article they are physically located in with a mention on the country article page if that's not the capital city.)
To open the discussion, I'd suggest that if places of worship for a particular sect or religion are so rare that they need to be mentioned at all, they should go in a "root" article.
At the end of the day, this may be one of those policies that are best not spelled out at all (other than at multiple) but rather best left to ad hoc decision-making as they arise.
For your Ski training example, I would tend towards the root (with possible mentions in relevant ski slope prose). --Ttcf (talk) 00:52, 20 November 2014 (EST)
As Ttcf already stated, listings generally go in the page where they are located (see Multiple) and most Tour listings are simply not allowed. I wouldn't change these policies, we can always discuss exceptions in the talkpages whenever necessary. GiulioC (talk) 04:52, 20 November 2014 (EST)

Should we now "recommend"?[edit]

I was perturbed by this recent edit, which restored the phrase "Some recommended places to go are:" in the Custom made shoes section of our Hoi An destination article.

For more than 7 years now we have had a distinct policy not to recommend any specific "Buy", "Do, "Drink", "Eat" or "sleep" listings (except, perhaps for sun block or malaria prophylactics...)

wta has stated since 2007: "Recommended by whom? Wikitravel is too big to make recommendations. Simply add descriptive listings."

If anyone thinks this policy should change, please would they explain why since I think we have enough problems with touting already... --Ttcf (talk) 18:37, 22 November 2014 (EST)

I don´t think this discussion is needed, I already responded to the same question you added to my talk page, a sentence was added by mistake while I was reverting a travel agent listing, that is all. Adzas (talk) 19:03, 22 November 2014 (EST)

Listing mechanism needs to be improved[edit]

so that

  1. it does not produce "footnote style" external links
  2. it displays phone numbers contained within the "phoneextra" tag

--Ttcf (talk) 14:57, 25 November 2014 (EST)

Listing fixes That would be a technical issue for the <listing> tag, so you should mention this request at Shared. Koavf (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2014 (EST)

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