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The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
  
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
  
{{disclaimerbox|If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to that article.
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{{disclaimerbox|*If you have a question or suggestion about a ''particular'' article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to ''that'' article.
  
If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ Mediawiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
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*If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
  
If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.
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*If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.}}
 
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}}
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<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. '''three months''' after the last comment in that discussion) that could or should be moved to a [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|talk page]], please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
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* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page
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* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to the policy or expedition discussion page
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* A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
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* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to to where the main discussion took place.
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to '''[[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]]''' and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
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{{WikitravelDoc|collaboration}}
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[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
 
[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
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[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
 
[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
 
[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
 
[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
[[ko:Wikitravel:Travellers' pub]]
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[[ko:Wikitravel:사랑방]]
 
[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
 
[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
 
[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
 
[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
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[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
 
[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
 
[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
 
[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
----
 
  
== OpenID still not working==
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==Wikitravel Upgrade==
Also, login on en: using OpenID from fr: and URL ''fr:user:joelf'' doesn't seem to work either. Thanks for your help. joelf
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{{disclaimerbox|<big>'''Our site upgraded in June 2016!'''</big>
:Take a look at [[:wts:Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS]].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 14:44, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
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<br>
::Still not working yesterday. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:57, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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We're happy to announce that Wikitravel has been updated to the latest version of mediawiki. We'd appreciate any help to catch and fix any bugs resulting from the update! Simply report bugs [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Category:Tech_requests on our shared site].
:::We will disable. Not a needed function at this time.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:30, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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==[[Archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]==
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Some of the new changes include:
Started a page about [[archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]. Contributions and cross-links are welcome. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 08:58, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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*an updated edit toolbar
 
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*an updated user toolbar
: New articles: [[Christian buildings, sites and events]] and [[Muslim buildings, sites and events]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 10:39, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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*notifications
 
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*table of contents on banners now have dropdowns with sub-sections
:: These should link to existing articles such as [[Holy Land]] and [[UNESCO World Heritage List]]. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 20:52, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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*multimedia galleries on every page
 
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*a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly
==Right to vanish policy==
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*many small performance and efficiency changes
I feel that we lack a right to vanish policy. The meatball version is to be found [http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RightToVanish here]. The Wikipedia version is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Courtesy_vanishing here]. Suggestion: import the current Wikipedia version. [[User:Riggwelter|Riggwelter]] 09:45, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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}}
:*'''Support''' --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 21:16, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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== Many more administrators needed? ==
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It's been more than a year since the last Administrator, [[User:Ikan Kekek]], was nominated.
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If you believe a Wikitraveller — including yourself — should have [[Wikitravel:Administrators|administrative status]] please verify that they meet the guidelines for becoming an administrator and then add them to the nominations section at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations]]
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Nominations should also include a sentence or two outlining the nominee's relevant experience and understanding of Wikitravel's policies. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 21:24, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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: The main reason for this problem is that nearly all the current admins have left to start another project. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 22:01, 23 September 2012 (EDT)
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::W. Frank is correct -- qualified admins are needed now, and to guide this project going forward. This is an excellent fresh start for Wikitravel :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:29, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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== Massive spamming ==
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Can the techies improve the captcha or something to cut down on the amount of spam? I've been deleting several pages a day for some time & over a dozen today, and I am not the only admin doing it, but there are lots more. Most involve accounts apparently registered only to spam. Is there a way to prevent spambot registrations? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 01:24, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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:Captcha is at its highest level (recaptcha, actually). We're exploring new ways to combat spam accounts, including the Abuse Filter extension. If you notice patterns in the spammers, please let me know. Whether it's coming from a common IP range, always posting the same exact content, similar usernames, etc -- if there's a pattern we can write a rule around, we can set up blocks.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:34, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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:: One obvious pattern is the dozens of pages with long strings of digits as page names, all with the same content, created by one user. [[Special:Contributions/Русская_месть]]
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:: Another is use of the <nowiki><br></nowiki> tag, not needed on a wiki but found in many pages whose pattern is "Hello, I'm Bozo McGuffin from Camelot.<nowiki><br><br></nowiki> See my blog:" then some rubbish link. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:33, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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:: Thinking about it, if there was a way to prohibit new users from posting links -- for example just reject any edit to a new user page that includes a link -- that would eliminate most spam. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:51, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
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::: [[User:Пиздец неруси!]] is spamming. Block immediately. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 07:42, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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::::Yes, he has vandalized hundreds of articles. Blocking him before he vandalizes a few hundred more articles might be a nice idea... <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 08:25, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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If you feel strongly about this, as I do, then why not suggest other Wikitravellers — including yourself — for [[Wikitravel:Administrators|Administrator status]]?
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Please verify that they (you?) meet the guidelines for becoming an administrator and then add them to the nominations section at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations]]. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 09:17, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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:FYI, we have placed some filters, as well as scripted the mass deletion of the vandalism over the last 2 days. It's not a big deal in the end, just a minor annoyance. Vandalizing a wiki... pointless. Thank you all for you help.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:54, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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::That's great news! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:09, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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This account [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD_-_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5_%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F_%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5!&limit=500&target=%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD+-+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5+%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%8F+%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5!] has vandalised thousands of pages. On the software side of things, can making more than "X number of edits in X amount of time" by a new user/IP address be blocked? [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 03:33, 26 September 2012 (EDT) PS:The name translates (Google Translate) as "Stalin-our shared combat". Wonder if it has something to do with those Pro-Communist/Russian nationalist people we've had to deal with on the Russia & Tiraspol pages?
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:PPS:Looks like several vandalism bots might be those people.  За Родину!= For the Motherland!  Слава России!!!=Glory to Russia!  Слава Родине!=Glory to the motherland!  Пиздец неруси!=Nerusi f***ed!  Русская месть=Русская месть  Возмездие= Retaliation Месть русских=Revenge of the Russian That's all the Cyrillic user names that appear in the block log going back through the 14th.
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:The red box being put on pages corresponds with the [http://wikitravel.org/ru/%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA:%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9 page of the user] that has taken over the Russian WT merging former Soviet countries into the "Russia" page. User page translates to: "Слава России! GLORY OF RUSSIA! Glory to the great heroes of the Russian land! Honor, praise, honor and eternal glory to the victorious people! Kudos to you, brave,    GLORY, fearless!        Eternal glory SINGS TO YOU PEOPLE. Valiantly lived,    Death is broken,        MEMORIES OF YOU WILL NEVER DIE! WE - RUSSIAN, God with us!"  Clearly some delusional apparatchik well-versed in Russian nationalist, revisionist history. Can Cyrillic characters be blocked from new user names? Any other ways to deal with this? Seems to me like the people who gave us the headache over on the Russia/Tiraspol pages were likely from Transnistria (which corresponds to the Tiraspol edits & the fact that Transnistria remains stuck in the 1980s with the Communist party in charge). Any way to automatically block (or put restrictions on editing capability) of Moldovan IP addresses? Possible to also add Ukraine, too, because Transnistria borders it and it's possible telecom services might come from Ukraine due to the conflict between Moldova/Transnistria.[[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 04:22, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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: Can we make it impossible to register an account on en with a non-ASCII name? There have been at least two accounts with Russian names used for vandalism. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 03:45, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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::I see the vandalism and your heroic efforts. I think both those restrictions are on the table and good ideas.  Thanks for your heroic efforts in reverting. We'll have to see about a mass revert via username. If the Abuse Filter can handle the x edits/x time restriction, that might do it. Even if we set it to 50/hour, it would have helped here tremendously.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 03:56, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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I would strongly deprecate any blocking based on geographical area or Cyrillic alphabet names. We do not want the innocent to suffer because of the guilty. Number of edits allowable per minute (if technically feasible) would not penalise the innocent newbie so much, but set much lower limits eg 1 edit per 2 minutes for 1st 7 days  of a new account, then 1 edit per 1 minute for next 7 days, then 2 edits per 1 minute for next 28 days, then 3 edits per 1 minute for next 90 days, subject to manual override on appeal. -- <strike>[[Special:Contributions/89.242.187.211|89.242.187.211]]</strike> [[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 04:36, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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:I agree with Frank, we shouldn't discriminate against a certain area or language. Anyways, the vandal could switch to ASCII names, so there's not much point in blocking non-ASCII names. But I'm fine with an edits per minute limit. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 10:23, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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:: I am taking out anywhere from two to twenty spam pages every time I visit, and that is just the obvious stuff. I'm not even looking at the dozens that are probably spam, the ones with a three-line intro to a "user" and some irrelevant link. Nor am I patrolling edits other than new pages and some things on my watchlist. I am doing far more deletions now than I used to when there was a whole crew of editors, but I'm also seeing more problems I do not have time for and much less patrolling by other admins.
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:: If IB want to keep this site alive despite the massive defection of editors, something must be done quite urgently. Either find many new editors or have IB employees doing extensive patrolling. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:48, 14 October 2012 (EDT)
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::: And the spammers are getting craftier. I believe [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Dajamer&diff=prev&oldid=1941189 this one] created several different "Black Hat" user names to vandalise dozens of pages and then went back using his "White hat" user account to "repair" the damage - but also added a tailored external link to a travel guide each time, hoping it would not be noticed in the pag3 "restoration"!
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:::IBadmins are doing extensive patrolling Monday to Friday but there are patterns in this spamming which could be used to automate reversions.
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:::Meanwhile, I would hope that we might see some more [[Wikitravel:Administrator_nominations|Administrator nominations here...]] --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 10:08, 15 October 2012 (EDT)
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::::Thank for that alert, guys -- were you in fact seeing that spam piling up on the weekend? We do expect to see less of that as more admins are starting to peck away at night and weekends. We also are in the process of implementing a number of filters that keep vandalism and spam more at bay, but there is only so much Captcha and filtering can do versus NEW pages; no system is going to be able to tell what is a "good" new page and what is not, because there's very little commonality with which to write a rule that prevents them without potentially preventing "good" new pages from being created.
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::::The good news is, new content continues to be added to WT at a fantastic rate. This site is doing great, and you two are part of the reason. If you have ideas for spam remediation, I am more than happy to implement them!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:24, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::::I do have one lead that you might want to check out - but since I suspect it might be against (your implicit) policy to mention the source here, I will email you about it. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:44, 18 October 2012 (EDT)
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===Abuse filter===
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The abuse filter names are singularly unhelpful (they appear to be named after things like Stephen King novels and the like).  When a user gets a message like "A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Lethal Weapon", that doesn't help them make more constructive edits, because it doesn't explain what the problem was.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 16:47, 25 October 2012 (EDT)
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===Legal action?===
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User [[User:IBlegal]] has made some imprecise and obnoxious threats and IB has actually sued some users and there are countersuits[https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/09/05/wikimedia-foundation-seeks-declaratory-relief-in-response-to-legal-threats-from-internet-brands/].
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Would it not be a better use of legal dep't time to go after the spammers who are actively and persistently damaging the site? I took out 24 rubbish pages today, 19 yesterday, and I'm just doing the obvious ones. Unchecked, these bozos will destroy WT.
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Also, going after spammers would be much better politically, doing something that might help all the other wiki sites out there rather than appearing petulant and aggressive. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 06:09, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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:You're not wrong! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 15:01, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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::That was literally months ago. We've moved on.
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::FYI legal has nothing whatsoever to do with spam. Spam is handled here, by people like you & me. Some of it we can handle technically, a lot of it manually. This is how it is everywhere. It's a neverending battle, but we do very well at it. I saw your edits over the weekend and recently, Pashley, and you're doing an amazing job! For instance: the life of the [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Undelete/Various_Knobs_and_pulls_for_door knob and door] page was... about 3 hours? That's fantastic!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:05, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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:::That's great news if it really is true that Internet Brands have reached an out of court settlement with the Wikimedia foundation and the former contributors to this site that it sued, IBobi. Where can we see the press release and ''then'' move on? --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:23, 13 November 2012 (EST)
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::: Good question! [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:02, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Yes, I know that currently "legal has nothing whatsoever to do with spam"; I am suggesting that they should. There are laws in place that make misuse of other people's computers a criminal offense and/or grounds for a lawsuit in many jurisdictions. The site logs have IP addresses for where this rubbish comes from. The spam itself has URLs for advertised pages. I'm both cynical and biased, so my opinion of IB's legal department is remarkably low, but I imagine they could do this. It might even be profitable if they nail the right spammers. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:13, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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:Again, you're not wrong!
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:Although, the hard case spammers can use proxy servers and internet cafe's to try and attempt to circumvent these lawsuits, it would be a relatively trivial programming task to block IP edits (as opposed to edits by registered users) from each proxy or IP address as it becomes known for abuse. In this case I would suggest also blocking edits by registered users from each black-listed proxy or IP address until an editor using a black-listed proxy or IP address has made a certain number of good edits - say 15 - so that privacy obsessed and registered "good" editors are not handicapped in any way.
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:Thanks for continuing your spam removal, Pashley! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 10:15, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::Ideally I agree with all of this. Internet companies have explored many avenues for actually tracking down spammers who blast their sites. The sad reality is they continue to make enough money doing this that they can afford to employ armies of people in between themselves and the site, masking IPs, and generally making themselves untouchable to anything short of the FBI; and if they're outside the US? No idea. Interpol? We always do as Frank suggested, blocking obvious spam user accounts permanently while also blocking the IP address they come from for a shorter amount of time. It's the best that can be done, and it works. The amount and type of spam we had three months ago was night and day compared to now. As we continue to add admins, it will get even better.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:46, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::: You think the current situation is "better"? Wow! To me, it seems an almost complete disaster.
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::: Checking recent changes, I find I have nuked 57 garbage pages in the last four days. I am ''only'' checking main article space and only taking out really obvious spam. There are certainly dozens I am missing; I would not be surprised if it were hundreds.
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::: Moreover, I generally just nuke the page leaving it to others to block the bogus users. I quite often see the page reappear in my watchlist with new spam, indicating that no-one is doing those blocks. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 14:07, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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:::::It's definitely better; the measure is not how many spam pages appear, it's how long do they live on the site for. If a spammer/spambot creates a page, we delete the page, block the spam account and block the IP they used, the same spammer can then create the same page using a new account and IP. That's why you may see that happening after you nuke a page; it isn't the same IP or account, it's the same spammer. If I could delete *people* I would ;)
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:::::By the same token, if you do happen to see the same page reappear after being created by the same user/IP, please let me know. We can always use more tips on how to get it done best. Whenever possible, I use the following technique:
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:::::1. Locate spam edit. 2. Block user/IP. 3. Protect the spam page to be editable admins only (in the hopes that it won't be able to be recreated). 4. Delete the spam page.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:16, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::::::You talk a good game but, as my neighbours sometimes say in Glasgow [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1952468&oldid=1952345 you seem to be all mouth and nae troosers!].
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::::::IB: "As we continue to add admins" but [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1953924&oldid=1953816]
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Good luck. I took out a dozen rubbish pages today, but I feel like I'm almost alone both as a contributor & as an admin. There are masses of admin work being left undone &mdash; patrolling in general, in particular catching the bogus user pages I mentioned above, blocking the bogus users for pages I've deleted (one spambot whose drivel I removed refilled the page eight times before I got bored & removed it from my watchlist; it is probably still active), appointing new admins (see troosers just above), ...
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My editing work now is on other wikis where there's a reasonable community to interact with and admin things actually get done. I'll keep the account here and pop in from time to time to see what's doing, but for now I'm done with even trying to fix the spam problem. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 17:16, 29 November 2012 (EST)
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:''Bon voyage'', Sandy!
+
:The dwindling '''real''' community on Wikitravel (as opposed to some PR-speak or Orwellian new definition) certainly have appreciated your erudite contributions and dogged persistence to the bitter end here.
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+
:I'll probably linger on (at least until fired by IBobi or one of his minions) since I hate seeing a good project destroyed by boneheaded stupidity and inaction. I'll message you privately via one of your other projects (since e-mailing is still disabled here) if there is anything cosmic that needs your urgent attention. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 19:35, 29 November 2012 (EST)
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+
:::Very sorry to hear that. In general, this *is* how spam gets removed. I and the other admins here at IB are constantly removing the spam that gets through the Captcha, Spam Blacklist, and Abuse Filters that we are also constantly updating. There will always be people trying to spam the site, and we'll always be here removing it. It's simply not possible to stop it all on the front end, so blocking and deleting is the order of the day. It's a fact of life, and any site that encourages anyone to edit it will have to deal.
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:::You've been a very valuable admin here, Sandy, and I hope you'll reconsider & stay. Any suggestions you have will be heeded; in particular, if there are persistent spambots, we can block them at the IP level, or even rages of IPs -- there's no reason to continually remove the same content.
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:::Either way, we'll be seeing you around, and thank you :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:52, 29 November 2012 (EST)
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::: Pashley, it's sad to see you giving up. Please know, that everybody here '''highly appreciates your contributions''' and your '''administrative efforts'''. Spam is going to be always happening on sites where the content is generated by users. Actually, right now IB notices way less spam than it used to be. There are more people keeping an eye on the site plus we set up a bunch of abuse filters that help us significantly.
+
:::We would like to  see you here often. Please know that you are always welcomed on Wikitravel! Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 19:54, 29 November 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Help! ==
+
 
+
I'm trying to remove vandalism on the page [[Midwest (United States of America)]]. But I can't, and I get the message:
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This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your edit was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Link spamming by anonymous or recently-registered users
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Why is reverting vandalism harmful?! (unsigned by [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/204.45.134.109 204.45.134.109])
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+
:Hi there, It may be that your edit included a link, which is something the system looks for from newly registered or anonymous IP editors (since they are often sources of spam). Sorry about that, it's a protection that helps keep Wikitravel's pages clean and spam-free. I recommend registering an account, and after you've become recognized by the community and the system, your edits can be properly attributed to you, etc. Welcome aboard!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:42, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
+
 
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:Also, I have made that revert!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:58, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
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::Ok, I've made an account and I'm trying to revert vandalism on the page [[Mombasa]], but I cant, and I still get the same message! Im only trying to help wikitravel. [[User:Ÿ;;!!!|Ÿ;;!!!]] 09:31, 26 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::I'm sorry, I realize you're helping by editing the page back to where it was before. Please keep making constructive edits -- we're happy to have you!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 03:07, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
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== MVGreenland ==
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+
User [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/MVGreenland MVGreenland] has been contributing many listings and photos (see WS). What do you think of these contributions? Touting?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:34, 27 September 2012 (EDT)
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:Someone needs to review all the photos to ensure the licensing is correct...someone over on WT Shared needs to check these. Make sure to click the link to the photo. At first I clicked the link to the user stream and saw all the photos were copyrighted. However, when I clicked on the link to the photo ([http://wikitravel.org/shared/File:Raining_Qaqortoq.jpeg on WTS] and [http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilovegreenland/4929429831/ on flickr]) I noticed it was licensed CC-SA 2.5 on WTS & CC-A 2.0 on flickr. As far as edits go, I went through the most recent 100 edits and didn't see anything that goes against our policies. There were a couple photos of businesses added (1-2 hotels & a bookshop), but none of the wording in hotel listings this user has added sound like touting. IMO, the user seems like a very helpful contributor to our Greenland pages. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 00:24, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
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::Thanks for that -- I generally felt the same way, as did IBcash, about the tone of his edits. Skirting the line perhaps but nothing worse than other business owners do.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 01:29, 28 September 2012 (EDT)
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== Selection of Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path for Main Page ==
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Hey current editors! We have changed the Destination of the Month and Off the Beaten Path sections of the Main Page for October. However, we would value your input and suggestions in the [[Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates|Destination of the Month candidates page]] for following months. Please check it out! [[User:IBcash|IBcash]] 15:38, 2 October 2012 (EDT)
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:Obviously I'd like to feature a New Zealand destination - but first I need to get one to Star status! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 07:50, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
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::Albuquerque has been already featured in the past as a Destination of the Month. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 17:01, 3 October 2012 (EDT)
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::: You're right! It slipped past me. Thanks! Since we changed it early because we didn't have one in September, we could keep it there until the 15th (the actual time when the OTBP would change) and then change it. What do you think? Any suggestions for another October OTBP? [[User:IBcash|IBcash]] 13:59, 4 October 2012 (EDT)
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::::Thanks guys.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:55, 16 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Hello! Are there any suggestions for the '''Destination of the Month''' and '''Off the Beaten Path''' for '''December'''. Please let us know your ideas [[Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates|here]]. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 19:04, 27 November 2012 (EST)
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:::::I think that [[Jacksonville]] would be a good '''Destination Of The Month''' for February or March. What do you think? [[User:Travelgeek]] 12:34, 27 December 2012 (EST)
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== References/footnotes/quoting ==
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Hello everyone,
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+
Being an experienced Wikipedia editor, but very, '''very''' new to Wikitravel editing (though a somewhat frequent reader of), I - on my very first intended edit - ran into a question.<br />
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In the [[Slovakia#By_car|By car]]-section of the [[Slovakia]] travel guide, I would like to have quoted a part of the [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/europe/slovakia UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office travel advice for Slovakia]: "''The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills).''" In my view it sums it up very brilliantly (having being a driving tourist in Slovakia on several occasions) and I think, that sourcing it would only make it all the more authoritative in this case. While being a reader of Wikitravel I have never pondered over the "lack" of quotes, but I have now looked into both a number of articles as well as various parts of the [[Wikitravel:Manual of style]], the [[Wikitravel:External links]] (could be it had something - it didn't) and [[Wikitravel:Welcome, Wikipedians]]/[[Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia]]/[[shared:How to re-use Wikipedia content]] (Wikipedia is rather anal about quoting and sourcing). Basically I came up empty-handed in all cases. I even found [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Reflist]] indicating that I'm not the only one with this "predicament". So my question is:<br />
+
How do I quote and reference it?
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I'm inclined to just insert a statement such as:
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:As the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office put it in their [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/europe/slovakia travel advice for Slovakia]: "The standard of driving is not high and can be aggressive. Specifically, beware of oncoming cars overtaking on your side of the road (particularly on bends and hills)."
+
But I would rather do it in the right manner, in case I have missed something very obvious :). In kind regards, Henrik/[[User:Heb|Heb]] 04:01, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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::You could go the short quote route (under the fair dealing copyright provisions) providing a link to the source (that might quickly become outdated) but it might be better just to put that in your own words - especially if you've personal experience of driving in Slovakia. That would mean one less external link - [[Wikitravel:External_links|which we prefer]]. We normally don't reference material here and unless we're (rarely) using a direct quote, don't usually source either. Enjoy your new-found freedom and plunge forward Henrik!--[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 07:55, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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== SVG-files? ==
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Okay, another question from newbie Dane, but please bare with me...<br />
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I wanted to update the S-train-map in the [[Copenhagen#Get_around|Get around]]-section of the [[Copenhagen]] travel guide. The one currently there is from 2009, and there has been two changes since then. Because I am slightly lazy, I thought of using the [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S-train_diagram_(dec_2011).svg map from Wikimedia Commons], which as far as I read [[shared:Tech:Enable InstantCommons]] should be fairly easy. Unfortunately the simple <nowiki>[[Image:S-train diagram (dec 2011).svg|thumb|420px|Map of S-trains and Metro in the Copenhagen area, with districts marked in the background]]</nowiki> didn't work - and neither did replacing Image: with File:. So I tried including a .png-file from Wikimedia Commons and that actually did work :)<br />
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Then I did a [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search=svg&fulltext=Search&ns6=1&redirs=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext=Advanced+search search for .svg-files on Wikitravel] and there seems to be a lot of them. But none of them works. So I'm guessing there is an issue with SVG-files somewhere. I tried with SVG-files on Wikimedia Commons and there have no problems. What do I do? In kind regards, Henrik/[[User:Heb|Heb]] 04:28, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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:I'm afraid this is beyond my knowledge - but I can confirm it's a real problem - I had to substitute a png file for an svg file in [[Template:Busy|this template]], Henrik. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 17:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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::I will have tech look into this! Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:30, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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:::OK -- we're seeing that they do in fact work (you have to click all the way through to the actual file, not the thumbnail), they just won't produce thumbnails.
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:::Can you tell me how you're uploading them, and where, step by step, i.e. 1) Go this page 2) Edit 3) Upload this file or reference this file 4) Error?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:50, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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::::Looks like this may be fixed; thumbnails should slowly repopulate as the cache rebuilds over time. Let me know if this is still not working as expected.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:16, 17 October 2012 (EDT)
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 +
== ideas for group travel, family that does not get together much ==
  
== Travel news ==
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Hi
Hello! I would like to call to action all the administrators and contributors on WT.
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What a fabulous project! I cannot believe I never found this before.
For a long time [[Travel news]] have been outdated. It is time to change it and keep the Travel Alerts and Current and upcoming events up-to-date. To achieve that, '''I need your help'''. Who is willing to offer his/her help? Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:54, 29 October 2012 (EDT)
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Some of my family wants to get together more often and we are trying to organize a group trip, 5 or so days, prepaid food options, lots of activities, and I don't think we care where we go but some need to keep the costs down.
:I think many of us are waiting for some straight answers [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers%27_pub&oldid=1954973#Clarification here] before we decide whether it's worth the effort in doing anything other than curating the articles that have already been written, Aleksandra. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 19:56, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Most of the family is in the north east.
::It's a pity to hear that, Frank, because I really believe in Wikitravel and I would like to make the site as much updated as possible. I know that with '''yours''' and '''community''' support it will be easier and better. [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 20:27, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Any one have suggestions about places to go, cruises to try, etc.
  
==Edit war: [[Stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]]==
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:Hi there! If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Vermont! It's beautiful there and relatively less costly than a lot of places in New England. [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
The [[stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]] (and to some extent [[Sweden]]) is frequently subject to edit conflicts, many of them pushing the opinion that Stockholm would be a dangerous city. Can you give some advice how to solve this disagreement? Thanks in advance. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 09:45, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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:Hello Blist! Thank you for notifying me. I checked it out and I saw that the user with the IP address 84.217.118.107 has made just one change in the [[stay safe]] section in [[Stockholm]]. However, I have already contacted him asking to avoid edit wars on [[Stockholm]] page and discuss all the changes he is planning to do on the [[Talk:Stockholm| discussion page]].  
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Vermont is a great suggestion - especially during foliage. You can check out activities and tours in different locations at [http://www.placepass.com PlacePass.com] - should help you get inspired!
:I am also watching this page so I will keep an eye on this issue. Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:04, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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::The best solution is always to discuss the changes you both are making, using the Discussion page for that article. Sometimes it can be difficult to get an IP user to engage in this way. Try leaving a detailed note in the Edit Summary asking him/her to talk to you.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:43, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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:Hello! Ignore having family trips during Spring months March and April because of Spring Breakers. [[Cabo San Lucas]] has many beach hotels with cheap all-inclusive packages and fun water attractions for the kids. [[Puerto Peñasco]] aka Rocky Point has many affordable beach houses to rent. [[Catalina Island]] is chalk full of family visitors and easily noticeable activities all along the beach. I suggest renting a house or condo near the main city of [[Avalon]]. Catalina is my top preference for you because of the darling city and the family-friendly environment. [[User:IBrobin|IBrobin]] ([[User talk:IBrobin|talk]]) 16:12, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
::: POV-pushing continues, by first-time unregistered users. Can anything more be done? Please contribute to [[Talk:Stockholm]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 07:06, 26 November 2012 (EST)
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== Re: Appearance of external links / Front-Linked listings ==
  
== Travel booking tool! ==
+
I am a new user and trying to find an answer to what I think is a simple question: What format should external links have? This is one of the most basic things that people would do in the wiki (adding links to sites) and yet I'm seeing an incongruity between formatting and policy. As it stands in the external links help page [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:External_links] we should add labels to web pages and I'm fine with that, but then when I use the code for listings (e.g. " < sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep > " ) it automatically goes back to footnotes and I can't seem to change it.
Soon, Wikitravellers will have the ability not only to browse and edit travel topics right here on the world's largest and best free travel wiki, but also to *book* travel from the very same page.  
+
  
Wikitravel has partnered with Orbitz to bring you a tool that will give you air and hotel booking options on each destination page in our travel guide. If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
+
I would not bring this up if it was a recent issue but people have been talking about this (using / not using footnotes; replacing the number of the footnote with a nice icon [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web.2Femail_format]) since 2007 and yet the code is still doing its same old thing.  
  
We've worked with the Wikitravel community over the past 2 years to determine exactly what the look and feel of the tool ought to be; please let us know any feedback you have, and we'll make every effort to accommodate changes! Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:34, 19 November 2012 (EST)
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As a new user, trying to add info to the site and then having to spend hours (trying to figure out what's going on with external links and why I can't get them to display in the way that I've been told to display them) seems very counter productive and demotivating. It makes me wonder how many other laymen have tried to make changes to pages and then just end up abandoning the whole thing cause guidelines don't match what's really going on and it all just takes to long to find an answer. Latest discussion I've seen about this, just makes it seem as if nothing is being changed and so what [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:External_links#Question_re:_External_link_format]
  
:I think this is a great idea for monetising the site!
+
Similarly, the whole discussion about front linked listings has been going on since before 2005 [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:External_links/Archive#Front-Linked_listings] with no clear resolution in the primary guides (help file) on formatting (from what I can see, correct me if I'm wrong). Whilst I at first preferred front links for their aesthetic and simplicity, reading other people's counterpoints make it clear why front links aren't a good idea: As stated by Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT) [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web.2Femail_format], he points out how some listings appear worse because they don't have hyperlinks or that having longer hyperlinks (thanks to the hyperlinked name being longer) would make them more likely to be clicked.
:I also like the way that none of our registered editors will probably ever notice this. After all, you're not wrong when you continually point out that there are millions of visitors to this site who never bother to register and will automatically get a chance to make bookings.
+
:So as not to weaken the credibility of the ads, it's even more important to give more people effective janitor tools!
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:However, I still think that you should clarify in writing the community established policies you have changed. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
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::I've switched on the display of Orbitz but still I never see it. What pages is it actually working on, please?
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::Also, Wikitravel has been slow to the point of being unusable today from this Pacific Rim country - the competing Wikimedia site loads more than 100 times faster on identical pages like [[North Korea]]. More than 20 times in succession I get the "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data" message. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 04:07, 22 November 2012 (EST)
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:::Did I miss an important announcement? I still don't see the display of Orbitz travel information but now the option to switch it on has disappeared completely from my preferences. What gives? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 02:54, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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::::At this time, the tool is only available if you are not logged in. We will restore functionality to those who wish to use it while logged in soon.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 30 November 2012 (EST)
+
Thanks for your prompt response.
+
  
I assume you are still having technical problems since I have just seen the Orbitz tool appear for the first time '''while logged in''' and with my preferences flag '''not''' set to "Show Orbitz Search", as this screenshot clearly shows if you click on it to enlarge: [[Image:WikitravelScreenshot20121201Orbitz-Displays-while-logged-in.png|150px|Screenshot a few moments after IBobi's assertion]] Please feel free to email me if you need help.
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If icons were to be used (a nice globe icon, easily recognizable as world wide web) this wouldn't need to be a discussion and the points raised would be resolved, using footnotes does solve the issue but people also complain about the aesthetics of it etc. [[User:Rhetorical|Rhetorical]] ([[User talk:Rhetorical|talk]]) 14:17, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
  
With [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers%27_pub&curid=76403&diff=1961629&oldid=1961571 this edit] you removed another user's comments. Unless there are exceptional reasons, this is frowned upon, so I assume the excision was accidental, yes? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:10, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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== Cannot edit my own user page ==
  
:Alice- you have to go to your web browser's options and '''clear cache''' . Then the Orbitz Widget will not show again. I hope it helps. [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:27, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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Hi I am trying to edit my user page while logged in. I have just created an account so that might be the issue.
 +
Error is "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Dark Tower"
 +
Is there anyway this can be fixed?
  
==[[Southwest (United States of America)]]==
+
--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 03:51, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
What happened to this page? Its text is now on [[Southwest United States]] but that page doesn't contain the history. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 22:00, 31 October 2012 (EDT)
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:Bizarre! You might want to check the logs. (IBadmins have recently promoted - without any community discussion or warning - a number of admins that, unlike yourself, have a very limited understanding of the policies and procedures of the English Wikitravel. Equally it might be some new spammer trickery.) --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:57, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
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::Fixed; no biggie. Just re-saved from earlier edit. Happens with MW database on occasion.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 04:58, 1 November 2012 (EDT)
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:::Thanks for your very rapid response.
+
:::I have deleted the contents & re-directed: [[Southwest (United States of America)]] since it's a breach of our Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike licence to duplicate a page without duplicating the attribution history.
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:::I'm still baffled as to how (on the face of it) an IP editor managed to duplicate an article and then delete the original (and its edit history) and all without leaving a trace in the logs. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
+
  
::::Without doing extensive research, I'm not sure that's how it went down. Looked to me like a DB error that was easily corrected. At any rate, after verifying that the "new" page redirects also redirected to the "old" page, I went ahead and deleted the "new" page, as it consisted of nothing more than dupe content, which is confusing. We don't want people contributing on one location and not the other, which is just what would happen.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:52, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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: Hi Wandering Roman, thank you for reaching out here. I've added a test message on your user page just now. Seems okay to me. Can you please try again (please blank my test message) now and let us know if you still have this error? Thank you!  --[[User:Binbin|Binbin]] ([[User talk:Binbin|talk]]) 04:19, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
===Database error===
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::Sorry to say that it is still happening. Though I think there is a problem with the back end of the site. Have a look at the Abuse Log and you will see other people are having similar problems. http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:AbuseLog
What is this database error? There are many pages missing including [[Ocean City]], [[Sydney/Bondi Beach]], [[Afrikaans phrasebook]]. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 18:27, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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::Thanks for your help. Its very fast.
:We're looking into what causes this. Obviously we do not want to wait until a knowledgeable editor like yourself discovers pages that are unusable. Did you find these by browsing to them or by some other method?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:39, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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==[[Wikitravel:Geocoding]] is also broken==
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::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 04:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
The article above states: "''It's possible to encode information about the latitude and longitude of a destination into the destination guide itself. This information will then be used to make special HTML tags to show that the page is related to those lat/long coordinates;"..."A "Map" link will also be added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane, which will take users to a Google, Yahoo, or Microsoft map of the location.''"
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I've added the relevant template to our [[Nelson (New Zealand)]] article but the "Map" link was '''not''' added to the "Toolbox" in the left pane! --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 20:37, 6 November 2012 (EST)
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:::Looking at the log more closely looks like it was miss-configured and that this has been a reoccurring problem since 2012, though in 2012 the problem was occurring under the filter named The Beaver. You may want to contact IBobi, the administrator to look at the filter list as from what I have read it can only be fixed by admin/bureaucrat groups on WikiTravel
  
:Hmm. Research shows that there have been problems with this template interfering with formatting. And not being terribly useful besides. We'll have to look into this one. Do you see an example where it is working?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:35, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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:::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 04:52, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
::I can't find any page where it is '''not''' currently broken - sorry.  
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::::Hi, are you trying to add a certain link to your user page? The filter you are mentioning is blocking certain links, if you just add text you should be ok. Let us know what exactly you are trying to add ok? Thanks! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 05:43, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
::It's not terribly useful to save the few keystrokes needed to key "Nelson, New Zealand" into the on-line mapping provider of your choice but
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:::::Sorry, Adzas I am not just trying to post some basic information about my self. There are no internal or external links. Thanks for the help tho.  
:#it would enhance the advertising click revenue of Internet Brands to have our relevant article page (with advertising by default) show up on users geocode-enabled smartphones according to their GPS location
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:#it's '''''very''''' useful to find out of the way places (often in third world countries) where names are often incompletely found or differently spelt on maps. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 17:01, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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==ISBN book references are also broken==
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:::::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 06:20, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
As can be seen if you click on any of the ISBN numbers (in blue) in this section: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Philippines&oldid=1951302#Books
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You are taken to the special page but, although the search box is correctly pre-populated the "Go" search button no longer works. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:26, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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::::::I have disabled the Dark Tower abuse filter. Thank you for the heads-up, [[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]]! [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 15:56, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:Hmm. I'll queue it; no guarantees on timing as this is the first I've seen of this functionality.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:00, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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== Electric vehicle charging stations on Wikitravel/Autonomous vehicles for the future? ==
  
::Appears to be working as designed. It's generating the AMAZON and B&N, etc. links at the bottom of the page. The input box is just to refresh the page and generate those links. Let me know if you have info to the contrary.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:12, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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With these types of cars becoming increasingly popular and fully autonomous vehicles quickly becoming reality, should things such as charging stations be listed?  In the future, what about autonomous pickup/dropoff locations as well?  --[[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 12:48, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
  
==Clarification==
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I for one hate driving with a passion especially in Los Angeles, the traffic hell of the universe. Charging stations wouldn't be useful listed on pages as they need specific address locations and individual city pages are too vague. [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
Because of the recent [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Pratyeka&diff=prev&oldid=1949763 misunderstanding] of our policies by a long-standing Wikipedia admin, I have clarified and re-emphasised [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel%3AExternal_links&action=historysubmit&diff=1950083&oldid=1896765 our specific policies on linking to (or promoting) other travel sites that use wiki editing software here]. I doubt that many will read it in advance, but at least the clarified policy is now there to be quoted in explanation after a redaction or deletion. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 00:36, 4 November 2012 (EDT)
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'''UPDATE''': My clarifications have now been deleted (twice).
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:I don´t know how many of those charging stations would be available in a location, I think a mention that charging stations are available would be beneficial, but individual listings I don´t think that would be needed, it would be like posting all petrol stations in a location. Just my thought.... [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:43, 3 June 2016 (EDT)
  
So we are now back to the hypocrytical situation of having one policy actively enforced and promulgated (at least by some IBadmins) without ever having that policy enunciated on any policy page that I am aware of. I think I'll change my user name to ''George Orwell''. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 18:48, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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:: True, posting them all would be indeed too much. --[[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 17:18, 6 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:1. WT editors are not to make changes to policies unilaterally. That is why the changes were reverted (at the request of another non-IB editor). 2. The policy in question doesn't really need a change. It's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. And it's almost entirely in the past. Thus there is no reason to amend policy, both because as it stands it is being applied consistently, and because the situation requiring that interpretation was unique and has now passed. It's time to move forward.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:06, 5 November 2012 (EST)
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::: Did anyone see that news article about the guy taking up three whole charging spots? [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 12:59, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
  
::1) I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you genuinely do not think '''We do not allow (and will attempt to strenuously police and expunge) external links to, or promotion of, ''travel'' websites that are not primary sources - this policy ''includes other wikis'', whether Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licensed or not''' has been our policy for a long time or <s>I'm a Dutchman</s> the policy in question has always existed and doesn't really need a change. Instead it's being interpreted internally in a way that it hasn't been interpreted before, due to a situation that has not arisen before. That interpretation needs to be made explicit and prominent to avoid edit wars.
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==New Update Today!==
::2) I do think it completely Orwellian and counter productive not to explicitly warn people that they should not include links to or use the ''naughty names'' of other travel wikis in text - particularly those that have recently started operating from Wikimedia servers. Since I am not an admin I really do need an explicit policy to link to in a terse but precise and authoritative way when I excise ''naughty names or links'' if the (often ''bona fide'' but ignorant-of-our-policy-that-can-not-speak-its-name) editor is not to be left puzzled, frustrated and annoyed by my (to him, incomprehensible) edits. An example of this is where an article discussion section dating back to July 2006 was removed to the [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBAlex&action=historysubmit&diff=1951308&oldid=1950874 genuine puzzlement of an IP contributor]. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:51, 7 November 2012 (EST)
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On a related but different topic, I really find it objectionable that no official announcements are being made about new admin appointments.
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Woohoo, hopefully everything goes smooth! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 16:36, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
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:'''So far, so good''' I haven't noticed any problems. Has anything been reported so far? [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:42, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
  
It is bad enough that folks are [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIBMaarten&action=historysubmit&diff=1954335&oldid=1954333 arbitrarily being made an admin on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience+nomination+discussion process but secret appointments] are really not my idea of "moving on".
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:Luckily not too many issues with the switch! [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 18:06, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
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::Just a bit of spam but not too bad! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
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:::I do an edit, and write an edit summary, but when I try to save it a pop-up asks me to write a another, separate edit summary. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 04:45, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
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::::Well, sometimes it does it, but not always. When it happens, the heading of the pop-up is <nowiki>"Publish to {{SITENAME}}"</nowiki>. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 04:47, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
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:::::'''Shared''' This should definitely be posted to the Pub on Shared. That's a serious bug. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
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::::::OK. thanks. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
If this character is '''not''' an admin, I really deprecate that this [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3AActiveUsers&limit=50&username=IB naming loophole] has not been plugged weeks ago as I suggested! --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:11, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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==Space travel==
 +
When it becomes available at what price point will you partake in space travel. Not the near earth orbit/ vomit comet stuff but actually leave the atmosphere to the moon type stuff. 10 thousand? 20 thousand?  [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
  
:Unfortunately there's no way I know of to prevent that yet. But since we watch all new user creation, we'll catch it if it happens. Sometimes users are appointed internally as admins. No biggie. I was such a user, and look how great I've turned out :) --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:21, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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:Honestly, I can't even handle rollercoasters, so I'm not sure how well I'd do when pulling the Gs of space flight. And I mean, there's enough stuff ''on'' the planet I need to see [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 14:02, 9 June 2016 (EDT)
  
::Has [[User_talk:IBMaarten|IBMaarten]] arbitrarily been made an admin, on the English language version of Wikitravel, without the usual experience + nomination + discussion process but as a secret appointment?? Yes or No, please. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 16:35, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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:I think once the technology allows the cost to be more reasonable, I'll be willing to spend 1k [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 13:51, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:::I thought I explained it? And the edit that made him an admin was clear: he's administering the Dutch site, and also working on EN. There's nothing secret, Frank. Rejoice: and welcome the new admin!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:50, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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== If you were stranded alone on any island in the world, which island would you want it would be? ==
::::No, we have still not had any announcement from you, any other IBadmin or a properly appointed admin, never mind on the proper pages and you have still not answered with a "Yes".
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::::Neither was his admin status on the English language version of Wikitravel showing at: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3AActiveUsers&limit=50&username=IB at the time I posed the question above and at the time I make this edit.(I've taken a screenshot which I can post if you doubt my veracity).
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:::::We're not mind readers, you know and you really are abusing all of our policies and processes now. As for there being nothing secret, that really is a lie as Alice makes clear above.
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:::::Would you now make clear (with a properly formatted diff) what exactly  was "the edit that made him an admin", please?
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:::::And for the avoidance of doubt, I personally have no objection in principle to admins from other language versions being rapidly promoted to admin status on the EN Wikitravel. But there should be a clear announcement on the proper page(s) each time this happens and you urgently need to revise all those policy pages that you currently keep flouting. To do anything less is to destroy any chance of re-building the community that has been decimated by your autocratic and thoroughly whimsical decisions, never mind poisoning the wholehearted welcome that would otherwise be given to new (and sorely needed) wielders of the mop. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:30, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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::::::I believe you can view [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_patrol_log=1 this page?] Sorry you're unhappy Frank. We're promoting anyone who gets the required community support in the required time period, and shows the best qualities to help the community move forward. Thank you, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:46, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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Imagine all islands are now deserted, left only with the remaining amenities left behind by its former dwellers. (think zombie apocalypse) [[User:IBrobin|IBrobin]] ([[User talk:IBrobin|talk]]) 13:39, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::::That User rights log is not a page that can be added to anyone's watchlist and neither do I know of a way to find out what pages internally link to it. Do you seriously expect editors to load that page every few hours to find out what admin has been appointed on the English language version of Wikitravel most recently?
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:I'd have to go with the old standard: Hawaii. Lots of rain, lots of sun, great views. I can think of worse places to spend the rest of my life (although hopefully a few other people can stop by, so it's not so lonely haha). [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:14, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::::I note that you have still not dealt with the most pressing point: '''Explicit Clarification in writing''', on the English language version of Wikitravel, in the obvious places of the new policies and, if they are of only a temporary nature, their expected date of expiry. --[[User:W. Frank|W.&nbsp;'''Frank''']]<sup>[[Special:EmailUser/W. Frank|<font color="green">e-mail</font>]]</sup><sub>[[User talk:W. Frank|<font color="red">talk</font>]]</sub> 18:59, 15 November 2012 (EST)
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==Is "formatting according to our [[MoS]]" edit warring?==
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:Judging by google earth, Anuta island (part of the solomon islands) looks pretty cozy! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 19:19, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
Perhaps appropriately, given its subject matter, [[Wikitravel talk:Edit war|this policy page]] has been constructed by individual editors plunging forward and writing stuff that seemed blindingly obvious to them.
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Rather refreshingly, a brand new IBadmin [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASingapore.Alice&action=historysubmit&diff=1956425&oldid=1956420 has queried] whether making persistent changes to article formatting is "''something that needs to be '''discussed first within the community'''. I'm referring to this [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel%3AEdit_war&action=historysubmit&diff=1956416&oldid=1516343] change.''"
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:The Americas please!!!!!!  [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]]) 17:45, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
  
Does anybody else think that (for example) when more knowledgeable editors continuously and relentlessly change formatting that does not conform to our [[Manual of Style]] (without good reason) - such as changing "150 Pesos" to the more correct "₱150" - this is edit warring?
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:: Bora Bora!!! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 11:49, 13 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Who else thinks that in cases of controversy, the style manual should '''not''' trump? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:05, 19 November 2012 (EST)
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== Banner photographs ==
  
:Edit warring is edit warring, regardless of whether one of the parties is "right" and the other party is "wrong".
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I just want to ask - what is the criteria for the banner photographs and what they can be of for the articles on Wikitravel? The main thing I noted was a banner photo of the wrong place, as I noted on the talk page! [[User:Wetter88|Wetter88]] ([[User talk:Wetter88|talk]]) 12:17, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
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:'''Banners''' Wetter88, there are no hard and fast rules, except for the size and ratio of the photo. It's best to choose something engaging and illustrative and those can change over time if someone finds a better one. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:00, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
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::I noticed that the banner picture on the [[Woking]] article wasn't in Woking, so I was wondering whether this meant it was invalid as it was the wrong place! [[User:Wetter88|Wetter88]] ([[User talk:Wetter88|talk]]) 02:47, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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:::Hi, you're right, the [[Woking]] banner is wrong. We will create a new corrected one very soon (unless you want to try and create a new one). Thanks, [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 05:02, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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::::'''Accuracy''' It's definitely better to have a photo that really represents the place you're going. Personally, I'm not very hung up on it, especially if the photo is of somewhere nearby or comparable. This example is just a busy train station--honestly, I don't think anyone will be disappointed if he gets to Woking and this scene isn't there. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:If two people are changing the article formatting back and forth, the correct thing to do is to follow the procedure discussed in [[Wikitravel:Edit war]].  [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] 22:11, 21 November 2012 (EST)
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== Fitness Around the World ==
::Replied to you at [[Wikitravel_talk:Edit_war]] since I'm rather baffled by your imputed suggestion that we should scrap at least one of our five [[Wikitravel:Policies_and_guidelines#General_policy| foundation policies]] that: "Text and images should follow style guidelines. With rare exception, text and images should follow our Manual of style. Exceptions should gain wide consensus; in cases of controversy, the style manual trumps."  --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 22:47, 21 November 2012 (EST)
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I'm US-based, and (especially in California) we have a major fitness sub-culture. Weightlifting, yoga, running, and the outdoors are all very big here. I was wondering about the fitness cultures of other countries and how those display themselves. Like here, running and physique are definitely the major areas, then probably yoga. What about Europe? Asia? How do different countries express their physicality? [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:51, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
::The quote you included contains the words "With rare exception."  That's why you need to discuss with the other party instead of edit warring with them to see whether it makes sense for this to be such an exception.  Cheers, [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] 19:06, 23 November 2012 (EST)
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==[[Wikitravel:Requested articles]]==
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:I like the British way-- http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fitness/2011/01/fitness_for_foreigners.html [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]]) 17:57, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
I boldly started [[Wikitravel:Requested articles]] for listing links to articles that would be useful, but do not yet exist. Would it be useful for the development of Wikitravel? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 13:14, 22 November 2012 (EST)
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:Why not? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 14:27, 22 November 2012 (EST)
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=="add listing" defect==
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::Interesting article, to be sure! [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:01, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings&diff=next&oldid=1251767#Listing_order For a long while] we have had a policy of [[listing]]s being [[alphabet]]ically ordered unless there is a good reason not to.
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Unfortunately this is consistently and automatically buggered by the "add listing" option that appears in blue to the right of our standard section headings of "See", "Do", "Buy", "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" that always adds the new listing to the bottom of that particular section.
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==Embassy and consulate listings==
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What are your thoughts on having the embassy and consulate listings in the "Cope" sections of the main pages of every city? These listings also include code for the flag icons and add a lot bytes to the size of every page. They are also very distracting in the cases of some cities that have over 100 listings in this section and are rarely useful for the average traveler. I don't think many travelers will rely on wikitravel if they run into trouble or need a visa as most countries have a certain procedure for addressing these issues and travelers will visit the webpage of the applicable embassy via a google search. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 50.195.72.217|50.195.72.217]] ([[User_talk: 50.195.72.217|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/50.195.72.217|contribs]]) </small>
  
Is it time to change the listing order policy or recode the robot so that it understands alphabetic order? --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 16:34, 24 November 2012 (EST)
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:I agree. I remember in the past we had a discussion about this, let me see what I can find about it. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 05:09, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
  
==[[Colombia]]n pesos==
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::I think that these listings are most useful in the non-capital cities like [[Denver]] or [[Manchester]]. A traveller might be able get a visa needed for later when in such a city, and would probably not have though of looking for a consulate there. Conversely a list is probably not so useful in [[London]] where you would expect almost every country to have an embassy. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 17:14, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
There are many countries around the world that use the name "dollar" and the symbol "$" for their currency. Our [[$|usual policy]] is that<br />
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''Prices should be listed with the currency symbol that travellers will encounter, specifically the local formatting. The currency symbol should always be prefixed. Travellers should be able to assume that symbols used for multiple currencies (like $ or £) apply to the local currency. Do ''not'' use currency codes like "USD", "EUR", or "GBP" if the symbol is established.
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* $100 in [[Detroit]], not US$100, 100 USD or 100 dollars
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:::That can be addressed by noting the countries that have embassies/consulates in a single sentence for these smaller cities.
* $100 in [[Vancouver]], not CAD$100, 100 CAD or 100 dollars
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* $100 in [[Wellington]], not NZD$100, 100 NZD or 100 dollars
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* $100 in [[Canberra]], not AUD$100, 100 AUD or 100 dollars''<br />
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and I propose no change in respect of this.
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== Site usage data ==
  
However, the currency of Colombia poses special dangers of inconsistency and confusion as exemplified in our [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Cartagena_%28Colombia%29&action=historysubmit&diff=1959307&oldid=1957758 Cartagena (Colombia)] article.
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Hi Folks,
  
Colombia is unusual in having an officially recognised currency symbol of "$" that (unlike Singapore, etc) is '''not''' actually used on their banknotes - where, instead, "pesos" is printed. Since prices in the tourist industry in Colombia are also often quoted in US$, <u>I propose that we use "'''pesos'''" instead of either the $ symbol or COP for Colombia currency.</u>
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I have a quick question, is it possible to get page view counts for a particular period, from Wikitravel?
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For example, could I get a list of the top locations that are searched for on WT and associate a location with them?
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Kind of thinking of a heatmap for WT page popularity for london.
  
This is somewhat analogous to the "Baht or ฿" situation adjudicated at [[Wikitravel_talk:Currency]] but differs in that I propose using the plural "'''pesos'''" rather than "peso" since
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Thanks,
#the peso is so minute as to be almost never encountered in the singular
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Omar
#that is the word (in Spanish) that appears on Colombian Banknotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_peso
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Does anyone disagree with my proposal?
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: Hi Omar, I'm terribly sorry about the delayed response, but that is a great idea! Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of feature at the moment. However, I will do my best to see if that's something we can implement in the near future. I will most definitely keep you updated and you'll be the first to know! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:04, 9 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Discuss at [[Wikitravel_talk:Currency#Colombian_pesos]] rather than here, please! --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 15:21, 26 November 2012 (EST)
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== Conflict Photojournalism ==
  
:Nobody has raised any objections so I will now make the necessary policy change. --<sub>singapore</sub>[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|<b><font color="#0000DD">A</font><font color="#0066FF">l</font><font color="#0099FF">i</font><font color="#00CCFF">c</font><font color="#00EEFF">e</font></b>]] 18:44, 30 November 2012 (EST)
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Hello Everyone,
  
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First and foremost I'm aware of the dangers present, please do not convince me not to do this, although you could suggest similar career paths. Lately I've been interested in photographers in poverty/war/conflict stricken areas. I'm not interested in the dangers per se but I am interested how people act in wartime and other dire situations. Let this be a place where we can discuss these things. Is anyone a photojournalist in the first place?
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[[User:Misuta trent|Misuta trent]] ([[User talk:Misuta trent|talk]]) 12:51, 29 August 2016 (EDT)Trent
  
== Las Vegas ==
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:Hi Misuta! That sounds like a very interesting career path. It reminds me of HONY (Humans of New York) where he interviewed Syrian refugees  and American veterans affected by PTSD. It's crazy to think that these amazing/sad/inspirational stories are coming from people we see on the streets. What made you want to pursue this particular career path? [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:15, 9 September 2016 (EDT)
  
First of all, I want to apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, but right now I am so frustrated that my head is spinning.
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== External Links Style, two interpretations ==
  
When I was originally planning our family vacation to Las Vegas I used the WikiTravel website as a source of research for shows, attractions and places to stay. As a first time visitor to Las Vegas, the website seemed to be a prime resource providing a lot of useful information.  
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Hello.
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Some time ago i came across 2 different interpretations of external links style policy. Some admins approved the "blue bold clickable“ external link style (avoiding footnotes) and encouraged me to revert footnotes to "blue bold clickable“ style, while some other admins reverted existing "blue bold clickable“ external links back to "footnote“ style. Also deleted some edits by other users who added listings in "blue bold clickable“ style stating it was "bad format“, although it exactly conformed the example presented on WT policy page. Would like to know which interpretation is now valid and correct.
  
We have since returned to Las Vegas several times and I absolutely love this destination and am planning to return many more times.
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And would like to avoid off-topic comments about external links content, formatting and other policy because i ask about external links style. I know WT policy too, no need to redirect me to those pages which i already know well. Those two opposite interpretations coexist in written policy, it‘s like some of those policy texts are slightly incoplete or something, but when it comes to adding useful info which is encouraged by one admin but deleted by other admin, i start to feel as if WT is busy with anything else but not with creating a proper guide. How to be a useful contributor if even to trust admin is risky. Could someone provide a strict statement which external link style must be used, a "blue bold clickable“ one or a "footnote“ one? [[User:Local|Local]]
  
In anticipation of my return to Sin City in a few months I was going through my Vegas bookmarks and I noticed the Wikitravel entry. I remembered reading a few of the entertainment/shows entries and I realized that a few things didn't jive with what I had experienced in real life.
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And sorry, but where is a "sign" button after the site was upgraded? [[User:Local|Local]]
  
When I went back to the website to confirm my suspicions - Sure enough, there they were!
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: Hi [[User:Local|Local]] thanks for stopping by! I'm one of new hired admins overseeing Wikitravel from Internet Brands. I'm aware that you previously discussed this issue with several admins and it was brought to my attention by Triskelle not too long ago. Despite some confusion, we are allowed to use both the "blue bold clickable" style and the "footnote" style for listings. Upon discussing this with Triskelle, we decided that it was in our best interest to stick to the footnote style for the [[Vilnius]] page. Most listings on this page used a combination of the two formats so I've been fixing it to reflect the footnote style listings. However, the only time footnote styles are not allowed is when a user is trying to link to a source to prove a point or back up a fact. Hope this answers your question! Also you can sign off using "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Let me know if you need more clarifications, I'd be happy to answer them. [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:36, 16 September 2016 (EDT)
Numerous inaccuries, for example:  
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::: Thanks for matter-of-fact answer. Vilnius article or not Vilnius article it's irrelevant to me - can you confirm that previous policy change (March 2013) which made a switch from the "footnote" style to the "blue bold clickable" style is not valid anymore (with that exception you pointed out) and the corresponding policy page will be modified accordingly? Now it is only your "private answer" to my "private question", so to speak, i have no reason not to trust your explanation just don't see (so far) how it reflects on written policy (i.e. it does not reflect now). There was similar confusion back in 2013 but the policy page was quickly modified immediately when agreement among admins was met. As for the Vilnius article, you probably don't know all details, it was a [[Washington, D.C.]] article (a star one) which was taken as an example of how a nice article should look like. And Vilnius article was formatted after it. Discussions about it can be found in corresponding archived talk page. Can you confirm that Washington, D.C. article, in this respect, now can't be taken as such example? (I assume you do confirm). I ask for those details because there are no other confirmations of what you were discussing with that other admin, only those few lines above. I just want to be sure that i understand correctly. Whether it is this style or that style is irrelevant to me, i just want to be sure which one and that it won't be changed soon to the other one again. So thanks so far for your brief clarification, it is useful. And i assume there is no a "sign button" anymore, one have to sign only manually, is that correct? I'm a bit surprised that after the upgrade one have to do more manual work LOL... [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 06:58, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Blue Man Group at the Venetian (they have since moved their show to the Monte Carlo)
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::'''MediaWiki help''' In case some of how the site works seems confusing, there is a [https://mediawiki.org/ wiki just about the software] as well. That site may be able to help you but you can also ask for assistance here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 03:14, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Bette Midler at Caesars Palace (her residency ended Jan. 2010)
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::: Thanks for that link, at least so far i don‘t see how, why and when to use it (i know how to navigate and edit), but there are many (too many) little confusing things (maybe too little to bother admins with), and one, for example, is about recent upgrade, namely it reads above: "''a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly''". Is it about the option "Upload a picture" – the WT Shared page opens, then it reads "Upload Wizard" but it‘s pending, nothing happens – is it about it? When i open WT Shared and click "Upload a file" – the same good old upload page opens, it seems everything OK, will it work if i decide to upload a picture? I have uploaded many pictures to WT Shared previously so the "procedure" is no problem, and i have a little pile of new pictures i was going to upload later. Judging by how the "Upload a file" option works i will be able to, and judging by how the "Upload a picture" option works i won‘t be able to upload using this option. Is that correct? Because if that is correct, the statement at the top of this page seems misleading, it implies that currently ''any'' upload of pictures is temporalily impossible. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 07:46, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Lance Burton at the Monte Carlo (his residency ended in Sept. 2010)
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::::'''Uploads''' There is an upload wizard that is being deployed (I have no insider information on this) and if it's like at [https://commons.wikimedia.org/ Commons], it will not ''replace'' the standard method but complement it. Are there more things confusing or misleading about this wiki? I'd like to help if I can. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Fab Four Live at the V Theater in Planet Hollywood (the correct title of the show is Beatleshow!)
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::::: Aha, it won't replace the existing method, that's clear then. I know that wizard at Wikimedia Commons, i uploaded many pictures there. Well, i always appreciate any practical help from anyone and so far i have implemented it (all that i've learned from some of admins) in the form of texts or parts of texts, including some listings, here on WT, so some travelers could avoid some misunderstandings or so. Still it looks like a swamp to me.  
Viva Elvis at the Aria (closed in August)
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::::: By "confusions" i mean things that i encountered from the very beginning when i decided to correct some mistakes, and later to add this and that, and later implementing advices of admins, and later implementing advices of other admins and that's not mentioning conflicting or duplicated expressions (statements) on policy pages. I tell that as a user who was willing to make this guide more usefull. Those little confusions are the actual obstacles. I feel that i will give up, like many other potential contributors that i have encountered. I don't know if this is a proper place to clearify such small things? Two examples of such actual obstacles (it's like anecdotes, actually). First one, banners. It reads: "''If you'd like to update an article's banner with a new image, please post on that article's talk page. Make sure the community and admin team are in agreement that the new image should be featured''." Looks clear, so i, as a newbie, uploaded banner to the article's discussion page. After a while one of admins transfered it to the article itself. So i uploaded several more banners with no problems and no objections. Then i came across that some banners depict other localities, i found out why admins who uploaded them made such mistakes (there were some mistakes made by the Flickr photographers too), understood their way of thinking and understood that they do not know pecularities of location while i do know. Here starts the anecdote: according to banner guidelines, admins can't make mistakes. There is only option "If you'd like to update banner" (a bit sarcastically). Well, i accept that, authorities is authorities, so i wanted to "update" those banners, made the relevant ones and uploaded in corresponding discussion pages, provided brief explanations - and started to wait when "the community and admin team will be in agreement that the new images should be featured". Still waiting. I think, it's more than a year already, so not so long. What else should i do? I can easily replace wrong banners with correct ones, but one of admins made a clever remark to my comment: "you know, the existing banner looks better, i think". So, authorities is authorities, i don't argue. I want to reach agreement untill i make any moves. Because i constantly see how relevant info (including pictures) are deleted or reverted due to the lack of competence. This is not bad, anyone can make mistakes. Me too. I am used to this way to solve such situation: someone makes a mistake, another one points out, and then the one who made the mistake corrects it. This is normal in my business. But WT does not have any guideline that explains how to behave when you see the mistake you can't so simply correct, let alone mistake made by admin. Second anecdote. Say, i need help. Policy pages and guidelines tell "do that", "don't do that", and supposedly there are all answers to all possible questions, and if the question still arise one can post it at the Pub. What if it's silly question, or say, uncomfortable question like mine (just look to the amount of my text above) - it would be useful to receive a sort of "private consultation" or something. No. Don't bother admins, read policy. If you don't understand, learn english. It took several month to discover that polite and formal "Please feel free to contact me..." which is a sort of a private attitude or just a formal expression on admin user's pages, because such legal possibility does not exist in policy. I was reading policy, why should i look at admin's pages? Why stranger who want to learn how to edit properly should look to admins pages? One of admins politely agreed to answer my questions but i suspect finally got annoyed with my ignorance. Can't complain, it was a favour. Do you now offer me similar favour? It's a swamp, i generally tend to obey policy, which is a real swamp and i actually don't understand how it can be advantageous to WT or IB or anyone else to maintain it in current state. If policy had no conflicting and semi-duplicated sections and statemens it would be beneficial to all, and the new (potential) contributors would act in more reasonable way, at least many of them. Let alone misunderstandings between admins and regular users. So, is it a proper place to be helpful? My talk page would be a good place to me but nobody will reply there, and your talk page will be ruined with such ridiculous amount of texts, just look to my reply LOL. Anyway, i'd like to obey policy, i don't want to criticize or edit it, this is not for me. My little questions are endless, i don't dare to post them here. Plus that new admin didn't reply, probably he won't. I'd be glad if that what was mentioned here by me would be solved LOL  [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 18:05, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Human Nature at the Imperial Palace (ended their residency in November, and the Imperial Palace is now know as the Quad)
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::::::'''Help''' I'd be happy to help, Local. Obviously, if you are willing to put forth this much effort, you are willing to do some work to make this travel guide better. You can always post to my talk if you want or email me directly if you would prefer to not post it on a public forum. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::::: Thanks. Actually i was falling asleep when i was writing all this, so don't know what actual impression it made LOL... I'll have in mind what you say. Now it's not urgent because admin IBkataoka didn't confirm any detail i was asking above, at least so far. So i won't edit now because editing (or adding new info) involves some listings, and those listings have certain style, i.e. 2 possible styles, one of which is described in policy as a "must", while according to opinion of admin one must stick to another style. I don't want to do a double work, let admins do it if they see sense in that. So i'll simply wait and see. I can explain why opinion of admin is not sufficient: there is no any paragraph in written policy about double standards where guidelines are provided with explanation when one must stick to general policy, and when personal opinion of admin applies. So if now i start to write something and use the footnote style - someone else may revert or delete everything (or part), and he will be right because i violate existing policy. But i can see that potentially i may have actual "technical" questions in the future, i almost know what kind of. So i will contact you at your talk page, thanks. But so far i give up, i'm too busy to let me involve into confusions created by others :) [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 09:30, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
  
nowhere did it mention the residencies of:
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:::::::: Hey [[User:Local|Local]]! Sorry about the delayed respond, but rest assured I wasn't ignoring you :) I've taken some time to figure out the best answers and options to help clarify policies regarding Wikitravel. I understand your frustration- few policies that exist now can contradict other policies and some even clash with each other. The admins and I are going to work together to re-edit some of the policies to make information more easily understandable. In the amidst of all this confusion, admins do and will make mistakes from time to time and that's okay! Since we are all human, it's pretty inevitable. We do however, try our best to keep mistakes to a minimum though. Also, there is NO such thing as a silly question-ever. We encourage questions and discussions such as these because that's what the Traveller's Pub is all about! And Wikitravel wouldn't be where we are today without the help and keen eye from our wonderful users.
Elton at Caesars Palace (his residency has since ended but was current at the time)  
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Shania Twain at Caesars Palace
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Celine Dion at Caesars Palace
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Rod Stewart at Caesars Palace
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Tim McGraw and Faith Hill at the Venetian
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these are the most glaring ommissions
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in addition:
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:::::::: Which brings me to the next issue. The sign off button that existed before have temporarily disappeared and the Upload Wizard is currently down, but we're glad you pointed this out to us because we are now working hard to get both back up and running. So thank you for pointing that out to us.
  
Comedy Shows had only 2 listings (2 listings?!?!? I couldn't believe this! Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy (the venue has since changed) are the only 2 comedy shows in ALL of Las Vegas???)
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:::::::: As for the external link style as I have stated before, we are allowed to use both formats. The only time footnotes are not allowed is when someone is trying to support their arguments or prove their information. The listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the [[Wikitravel:Listings |Examples section]] of this policy. Yes, I also understand you are well aware of all the policies but this is the one I strongly urge you to follow. Because of this, many pages will need re-editing, but with the help of the admins and fellow Wikitravelers, we will able to restore the pages accordingly. If you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know! I would love to further discuss them with you and the rest of Wikitravel. Best [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:42, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
not listed were: Brad Garrett's Comedy Club, Louie Anderson, George Wallace, Big Al's Comedy Club, The Improv at Harrah's, Wolf's Comedy Den, Riviera Comedy Club etc. etc.
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Tribute Shows did not list:
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:::::::: Oh and one more thing I forgot to add. Banners. Would the best solution be creating a central banner page where users can submit their banners? This would be a page that admins will check everyday. Let me know what you think! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Frank Marino's Divas Las Vegas, MJ Live, Legends in Concert, Purple Reign: A Tribute to Prince, Dancing Queen, The Australian Bee Gees, Trent Carlini's the King, The Rat Pack is Back (there are currently over 4 Frank Sinatra and/or Rat Pack shows playing) etc. etc.
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Magic Shows did not list:
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::::::::: '''No need to be sorry''' ;) . Really appreciate your professional response. And professional approach. So far it was like dealing with kindergarten kids, except Aleksandra who alone obviously couldn't be responsible for all nonsenses of others. Your comments are crystal clear. Your attitude regarding footnote vs blue-bold-clickable style is crystal clear, and even the reason why it is such is clear to me. Also, i think i see the reason why my attitude regarding those styles seems not exactly clear for you, let alone others. So i do not have and didn't have complaints, thus how everything will be solved (this way or that way) is not my business, that is, i don't insist that this or that must be solved in this or that way. So i close my questions - you have answered them, and now i'll simply comment few things, as if responding to your "if you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know!".
Jan Rouven, Mike Hammer, Nathan Burton, Seth Grabel, The Amazing Jonathon etc. etc.
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::::::::* Banners. I don't trust admin team and don't care about their competence because i'm perfectly competent myself to judge about technical and aesthetic qualities of banners, pictures, composition of them within text, aesthetics and composition of text with and without graphics, value of templates, how and why templates make impact on general appearance, and how details and specifics of formatting of both text and images make impact on the whole, that is, on general appearance of the page; also what is primary and secondary for the guide and how it fit or don't fit policy and guidelines. So, first of all, criteria provided at banner upload page are pretty sane, or normal if you like. I know that my banners meet all requirements and know why they do, and why there may be some doubts at some points - this is because for some particular places it is very difficult to find a proper source to create the banner, the sources (photos, that is) are scarce and i know that they are scarce and why. I, to be honest, do not need advices in this respect; my questions about banners were triggered by my bad experiences and distrust. Which turned out to be sane tactics. So i don't know - do you experience some confusions with users who make banners? That is, are there cases when they make wrong or inappropriate banners? I can say that initially, when banners were just introduced (not so long ago), i experienced one inconvenience, asked at Pub twice and received the reply of admin once, reply was off-topic and useless. By that time there were only few banners, now there are many but the question is still relevent to some extent: where are they? I don't talk about pages - where are the banners stored? I store my banners among my uploads at WT Shared. The point is that it is very useful to have a possibility to see them all (created by others) at one glance. When you see them all (like google search images, for example) you can judge about both whole and details in all aspects: content, aesthetics, trend. You then can judge yourself what are the requirements, what is considered "nice" and "appropriate". So they must be already approved by admin team. This would be genuinely useful. Maybe it could be just display, while they could be stored where they are now.
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::::::::* Footnote vs blue-bold-clickable styles. You say ''"listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the [[Wikitravel:Listings |Examples section]] of this policy"'' and I know why you do but you don'y know why i stubbornly don't want to accept that. At least i have such impression - do you see where the point is? In chronology and laziness. Did you check chronology and did you take into account human laziness? I now don't ask anything nor complain about something - i simply tell you in playfull manner what one can clearly see if he properly investigates the issue. I take into account that you are a ''new'' admin, i am newbie too so there are not so much differences in some aspects. So, initially there were only footnotes, it was not even a style but simply the "technical solution" or so. One option, one style. And all policy was written accordingly, there were neither confusions nor doubts nor misunderstandings in this respect because external links were supposed to be placed in those footnotes, sorry my english vocabulary is very limited, especially when it comes down to "technical" expressions, so please take that into account. Then, both WT community and admin team, found that the footnot style is visually annoying and practically inconvenient. Arguments were provided. Small discussion took place. No objections were raised. Aleksandra approved - but i have to say that i have no clue whether others were aware about this decision at all, i assume they are obliged to be aware but i think they simply silently accept such things and immediately forget. This is about 2012/2013, i also want to point out that your friend from Russia became admin later. So - i stress that - needful corrections on appropriate policy page were made. They still present. There is some pecularity: everything was designend, especially at "technical" point, that external links can be reached using footnotes, so if you want to make a blue-bold-clickable external link you have to do that manually. I don't know - maybe after recent upgrade this was improved? I don't see much difference, manually or not manually, simply when something works automatically it is more obvious. But this is secondary because the policy is primary. Changes in policy were made and requirements were described extremely clear, citation: ''"No footnotes. Travel guides do not use footnotes!"''. I was and am constantly pointing this requirement of policy because any other opinions are just private opinions and violate WT policy. Create a section of double standards or revert those changes or make other appropriate changes instead. It would be professional. Now it is a kindergarten. So, i continue about external links style. Here laziness comes into force: appropriate changes about style were made, having in mind that this applies to all external links. Now see - all policy is written in footnote style, to edit entire policy is a decent work, to say the least. So it was supposed that if policy has proper description about external link styles, it should be sufficient and everything else goes without saying. So let's see Listings page: humble change was made there too - ''"the URL for the official Web site for this listed entry. To display properly as a working, clickable hyperlink, either http:// or https:// must be included before the rest of the URL! (see external links for more guidelines)"''. Nothing special, one should see what kind of edit was made at 18:27, 15 March 2013 right after changing the Style Policy - very minimal correction, editor had in mind that the new style policy applies and this goes without saying. Isn't all that sufficient and doesn't it go without saying? Now the new admin comes. Indeed, why it should go without saying, all policy is written in footnote style, all articles have footnote styles, so what should here go without saying? In my oppinion, here should go without saying that admin team can't be a kindergarten, and that private opinions are not even secondary - they are nothing. And i indeed lost my temper during that silly conversation with your russian friend. I had idea to improve some articles of RU WT, but now not interested. So I continue. Blue-bold-clicable style was some sort of novelty, having in mind that all articles will be gradually changed from footnote style to blue-bold-clickable style. So both styles coexist, but since all texts are experiencing edits from time to time, it was expected that all footnotes will be smoothly replaced with blue-bold-clickable links. Like you pointed out - "many pages will need re-editing" LOL. Are you aware what you are re-editing and why? If you have professional approach, relax first, make appropriate changes in policy, then act according to the policy. Your choice what and how to edit in policy, but i have to say that if your coworkers didn't explain everything what i have told you here - this is not admin team, it's a kindergarten. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 08:41, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Impressionist/impersonation shows did not list:
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:::::::::: Hi [[User:Local|Local]]! Glad you stayed around to discuss this with me further. The admin team is a group of one the hardest working people that I know and although you may disagree, I know that they are doing their best. We may have had some miscommunication here and there, but please don't blame them. I assure you that from here and on we will all be on the same page. I sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for all the stress Wikitravel has caused you so far. As I've stated before, the admin team and I will need to thoroughly re-vist some of the policies and edit them accordingly so please be patient with us :) I will be sure to take your suggestions/comments and keep them at the top of my mind! Especially having the option to view all the banners made by users in one glance (That's a great idea!) I do however, still stand by my external link format that I've stated earlier. I'm glad that you find my reasoning for them crystal clear. Should you choose to accept them, I hope that you will continue to stick around to make contributions and edits to Wikitravel. Best [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 12:42, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
Gordie Brown and veteran impersonator Rich Little!
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You get the picture! The number of ommissions and innaccuracies was-and-is mind-boggling!
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:::::::::::As some of the edits that are mentioned above were done so long ago, it is hard to remember all details. I would just like to add something about the changing of banners (and other information). Usually if you see incorrect information, everyone here is entitled to change information, as long as you put a reason in the comment field, so all understand why something was removed/changed. With the banners, many people spent a lot of time finding pictures and uploading them, so just changing a banner because you don´t like a picture we don´t do, we try to discuss first on the discussion page of the article, in order to respect all editors here. Obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion. We always try to answer any questions asked by users, at times questions are not seen due to high amount of spam, some edits are auto patrolled and only seen later etc etc, so if you don´t get an answer somewhere, feel free to send a message to a user or admin directly, that usually works. The external link discussion has been going on for a while, mainly because the "add listing" format comes up with the footnote style and it could not be changed at the time of discussion (tech issue). There were other priorities to focus on, and to be honest, my priority has been content, and when editing a page and I notice something totally against our policies I will change it. That´s why it is so great to have so many editors here, one looks specifically at the policies, one looks at content, another looks at pictures etc etc. Since the latest upgrade there is much less spam so all of us will have more time to look at the details, on the EN version and on the language versions too.  Participating here is not meant to be stressful, enjoy it, we all work together on this great project. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:45, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Considering that Wikitravel's Main Page proclaims that it is a "complete, up-to-date and reliable worldwide travel guide" this is unfathomable!
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At this point I decided to take it upon myself and sign up as a Wikitravel editor with the intention of becoming a "Las Vegas entertainment editor" of sorts and doing a thorough update of the "See" section (that's kind of funny actually).  
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:::::::::::: Thanks [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] for your matter-of-fact comment, there is nothing to disagree with, it all goes without saying, so to say. You told some totally new things that i didn't know. This guide (WT) is rather widely used, i know that from some travel forums, and from those forums i discovered that source of some misleading info comes from WT (there may be more sources of course). So basically i'm interested in content too, and one of annoying things was that admins revert correct content to outdated content and provide explanations (different in different cases), and those explanations always are statement that this edit is totally against policies. I don't want to focus now on this (it's endless), i'd like to clearify those new to me things in more detail, say, some things about those banners. This is quite handy example. Your statement: ''"obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion."'' . So this is a case, this is what i wanted to do. To me no discussion is needed, just i expect that admin will come and revert it, stating that my "knowledge" is wrong because he knows better (or so, i'm simplifying). So, to prevent that, i posted simple question, something like "this one is wrong" and "let me know if i can replace it with the right one" (actual coment was longer). That is, i wanted and still want to reach agreement before i make any move, no discussion is needed. It was rather long ago indeed, i stopped editing because i don't know how to behave with those wrong banners. Wrong by content, not because i didn't like it. It was admin who didn't like correct one. So, as you see, it's such a simple thing and everyting turns into such a mess because there is no clear guidance what to do in case of mistakes. That option "if you want to update the banner", well, it is more relevant to photos that illustrate the text, while banner is more for representation, but yes, this option is usefull, but it does imply that existing banner is still correct, still represents the article, and may be replaced with simillarly correct one but with more qualities etc. While wrong content, incorrect location is a different thing. I assume it's a rare exception. Maybe even hardly possible. But still. If this is some obscure station (like in other discussion above) i agree that this is not very relevant but why not to replace it if you can make a correct one... and besides, this would be professional approach. But i talk about panoramic landscapes, manors, castles - i agree with you in all details, that is, that such banner should be replaced, but how one can do that if policy does not explain how and whether this is allowed? Once it's absent in policy - it goes without saying that this is not allowed. I assume(d), this is a prerogative of admin team. It would be quite normal. Editing is editing, adding new text or images is still editing, but mistakes left because of lack of knowledge, competence, by mistake, intentionally is a different thing, it's not always clear that and whether this is an actual mistake (otherwise it would not be left). So it would be normal if admin team has prerogative to deal with all obscure mistakes of content that occur. My attempt to clearify that ended in stern silence. Long or not long ago, it's secondary - it could be many more recent misunderstandings that ended in silence, just i got fed up. Now summer ended, i decided to try to clearify some things. So who can correct mistakes, like in case with those banners? Anyone? Or admin team? Or anyone can report to admin team and they will take care? I don't ask to answer, i'd like to see what policy says :) . Maybe there is some explanation, i could miss it, that's quite possible. I just want to add about that what is "obvious", like in your saying about banners with incorrect locations - there were many obvious things to me, but when admin says that for him it's obvious that he's right and i'm wrong and provide arguments that illustrate certain gap in his certain knowledge - what one should do then? This turns your reasonable advice to behave reasonably and sanely into impasse. And that is what wasted majority of my time on WT. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 15:59, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Anyway ...  
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'''Admin issues''' Local, I can't speak to any other admins but I am an admin here and I am not affiliated with Internet Brands. If you feel like someone did something wrong or that you simply don't understand, you can of course contact him directly or if you want an outside perspective, you can ask me. I'm glad you're here and have been here for awhile--I hope you want to continue contributing. If you'd like, you can send me an email. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:08, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
I spent over a week researching and documenting the current shows as well as the concerts and special events (I'll get to this in a moment) ... and this is no mean feat ...
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:::Thanks again for your input [[User:Local|Local]]. Sorry you feel your time is wasted here, we appreciate anyone´s input and edits. For future edits, just [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|plunge forward]], also with banners. We are all human, we can all make mistakes, admin on this site too, so as [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] says, if you feel you are not getting a response or the incorrect response or there are doubts, contact an admin directly. We are looking forward to further edits from you! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
To verify information required me to consult the venue's website, the performer's website, the authorized ticket agent's website and in some cases some entertainment revue sites. (I subscribe to dozens of Las Vegas tourism and entertainment guides and websites.)
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Once I had compiled all the information, I went about adding the new entries to the appropriate categories and correcting any inaccuracies.  
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:::: Wait, wait, i assume there is no policy that allows to "contact directly", no? It's a bit anecdotically but i was reading "Plunge forward" policy a minute ago and guessing what does this mean: ''"Ignoring authority....Don't bother asking..."''. Maybe there is no doubts for you, but policy tells quite different... LOL .. I'll better wait for the updated policy version and see. If won't die until that LOL.. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 17:28, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Once I was finished editing all the regular Las Vegas shows, I decided to tackle the concert listings knowing that this would be a very "hands on" endeavour requiring me to make edits on almost a daily basis.  
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::::: You are always welcome to contact an admin directly as Koavf and Adzas have suggested. But yes! Please do stick around for some updates and we hope it's to your liking :) Cheers! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 17:41, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
I created a sub-heading titled "Concerts/Special Events" with 2 sub-headings under that titled "1 Night Only" and "Limited Engagement". I then started to populate the lists in chronological order based on all the information I had.  
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:::::: [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]], thanks for your polineness and good will, I appreciate it, but clarity in our "semi-private" conversation is not a policy; i'm now starting to suspect that i was wrong thinking that admin team should act more reasonably - how and why to act reasonably if policy is a mess... LOL [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 17:53, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Halfway through listing the events for December I see a notice at the top of my screen saying that "there was a conflict with some of my listings etc. etc". Upon checking my User talk page I see a message that says this:
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:::::::This project has been running pretty well since 2003 with the policies/guidelines that are currently in place. Times change so policies/guidelines could be updated where necessary, but I don´t think they are a mess, sorry again you feel that way. As  [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] says, some updates are looked at so probably best to take it from there. Happy editing! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 18:27, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
"I had to delete your contribution on Las Vegas page because we do not post one time events/ attractions in destination articles. Best, IBAlex 20:19, 30 November 2012 (EST)"
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I could not believe what I was seeing!
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== Evil website wants to steal your content ==
  
To omit "1 night only" or "limited engagement" concerts/special events from a Las Vegas entertainment listings is a travesty! Las Vegas is truly the entertainment capital of the world and to ignore this by not including these listings is doing the reader a huge dis-service. I personally, would book travel based on several of these events alone and I know this to be true for many others. There has to be an exception made for Vegas ... the concerts, shows and special events are what Las Vegas is all about! That in itself is what makes Las Vegas a travel destination! You can't apply standard rules as there is no place on the planet like this!
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The evil website that started with stolen content wants to steal even more content. I cannot link because of the filter, but you know which website I am talking about. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 62.212.73.246| 62.212.73.246]] ([[User_talk:  62.212.73.246|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ 62.212.73.246|contribs]]) </small>
  
This is a partial list of the concerts and special events for the month of December:
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:'''Fork''' The content forked to another site is totally within the bounds of the license that Evan and Maj chose for this project. 62.212.73.246, there is nothing "evil" about reproducing it (and building upon it as well)--it's part of the purpose of Wikitravel/voyage. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:13, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
Aerosmith & Cheap Trick, ZZ Top, Megadeth, The Eagles, Red Hot Chili Peppers, The Black Keys, Pitbull, The Killers, The O'Jays, Jerry Seinfeld, the Wayans Brothers, The Eagles, Jeff Dunham, UFC 155, The Ultimate Fighter Finale, The National Rodeo Finals, American Country Awards, Three Dog Night, Restless Heart, Mannheim Steamroller, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Train, Ron White, Bill Engvall, Dennis Miller & Bill O'Reilly, Journey & Loverboy, Merle Haggard, Lonestar, Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Márquez, Charlie Daniels Band, The Oak Ridge Boys, Randy Travis, LeAnn Rimes, 3 Doors Down & Daughtry, Moody Blues, Tanya Tucker, Travis Tritt, The Tragically Hip, Trace Adkins, Social Distortion, Dave Koz and many many more.
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::I wouldn't say duplicating this site is "Evil", just pointless<small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 109.156.38.138| 109.156.38.138]] ([[User_talk:  109.156.38.138|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ 109.156.38.138|contribs]]) </small>
  
So now, in addition to all the concert/special event listings being deleted, so are all my show updates and inclusions. All of my work is now GONE! Wiped out in one fell swoop by an all-knowing, all-mighty admin.  Hours and hours of work down the toilet!
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== External links to printable PDF maps ==
  
So, as of right now according to the Las Vegas WikiTravel page: Bette Midler, Lance Burton and Viva Elvis are still performing, while Shania Twain, Rod Stewart, Tim McGraw & Faith Hill and Celine Dion are not. Carrot Top and Sin City Comedy are the only 2 comedy shows in town. Dozens and dozens of shows and venues do not exist and there are no concerts playing in town at all whatsoever.
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I would like to add links to printable maps I created on Inkatlas ([https://inkatlas.com/map/_ADN4ETM example]), but it seems like this is against the current External Links policy. I think a free, detailed, up to date printable atlas is something that's very useful to travellers. There is no way to include this external content in Wikitravel itself. Are such links, in fact, against the policy? If so, can an exception/change be made? Full disclosure: inkatlas.com is a project I'm working on in my spare time. [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]] ([[User talk:Kontextify|talk]]) 10:57, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
  
It's a shame.
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:Hi [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]], thanks for expressing your concern! I agree with you, a map is an important tool to travellers. However, external links such as yours have been reverted because it requires a user to go to your page and download the map in a PDF format. Popular pages such as [[Manhattan]] and [[San Francisco]] already have maps displayed within the pages that users can refer to. We do appreciate you looking out for fellow travelers though! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:21, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
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::I do appreciate the maps already included in articles, but I find they're often too small or not detailed enough to serve as a proper paper map of a place. Would it not be useful to link to a detailed printable map ''in addition'' to having the embedded ones? For example, articles about national parks and similar destinations can have links to printable maps with trails and terrain data (useful for hiking). Unfortunately, there seems to be no way of adding the PDF directly to Wikitravel. [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]] ([[User talk:Kontextify|talk]]) 10:11, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::'''Adding files''' In fact, these maps are made from [https://openstreetmap.org/ OpenStreetMap] data, which we can add to [[shared:|Shared]]. The licensing is not a problem. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 22:05, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
  
: I restored your edits; IMHO the deletion was bad judgement by an inexperienced admin. On the other hand, she had a point; WT is a travel guide; some of your listings may be too short-term to bother with and should be deleted as unmaintainable. Dicussion should go on the article's talk page. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 20:03, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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==Destination of the Month==
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The end of the month is right around the corner, which calls for a new Destination of the Month! If you have any suggestions on where it should be for the month of November, be sure to stop by the [[Destination of the Month]] page and nominate a place! Cheers :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:41, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
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:'''North America''' In the United States, it is Thanksgiving season, so something related to our colonial history or the harvest would be appropriate. Additionally, it's autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, so somewhere that has beautiful vistas for seeing the leaves change could be good. Alternately, we could go the exact opposite route and encourage our Northerner readers to hit the beaches of New Zealand or Tuvalu... [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 21:21, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
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::That's a good idea [[User:Koavf|Koavf]]! Do you know of any nice places in particular? --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 16:06, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::[[User:IBkataoka]] Not off-hand. Of course, the trick is that we would need to have a germane destination that ''also'' has high-quality content here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 23:00, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::: Agreed, [[User:Koavf|Koavf]]. I'll have to do some digging and researching then :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:01, 24 October 2016 (EDT)
  
I have committed myself to maintaining the short term edits. By tomorrow morning the concert listings dated December 1 will have been deleted. And so on and so on. I can appreciate how short-term listings might be termed "unmaintainable" by conventional thinking ... but ... Las Vegas is far from being a "conventional" travel destination. Thank you  [[User:Briank58|Briank58]] 20:17, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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:I don´t know the area too well, but I remember the beautiful colours of the leaves this time of year in [[New England]], maybe pick a location there? No beautiful leave colours but [[Portugal]] is also still nice to visit in November. More chance of rain but overall still lovely temperatures and sunny days. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 17:17, 30 October 2016 (EDT)
  
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::Awesome, thanks for your input [[User:Adzas|Adzas]]! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:01, 31 October 2016 (EDT)
  
:Briank58- thank you for your notice. I would gladly address this problem. I am here to help users and I am open to any suggestions and discussions.
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==Upcoming Holiday Travels==
:Please know that your contribution on Las Vegas page is highly appreciated. I am glad to see that you understand that Wikitravel does not support short-time listings (especially 1 day listings) because it is difficult to maintain them. We do worry that when users post short-time listings on the site, they will not remove them once the listings become outdated. And this clearly is not beneficial for the site and the users... In this way, the site risks of becoming eventually cluttered with those outdated listings. That is why I removed your listings, leaving a message on your Talk Page to let you know that I did not mean anything bad. I was simply following the conventions.
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With some of our favorite holidays coming up, what are some of the best places to visit around Christmas and the New Year? Or maybe even to escape the holidays? I'm open to any suggestions! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:49, 14 November 2016 (EST)
:However, when I see that you are willing to upkeep the listings and remove some of them on daily basis, I am fine with keeping them there. Again, your contribution is extremely valuable to Las Vegas site, thank you for that. Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:32, 3 December 2012 (EST)
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:It's usually so expensive to travel during those months but If I had a choice (as a person from california) I would go to Australia to escape the winter weather! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 14:40, 15 November 2016 (EST)
  
== Why are the Orbitz ads appearing on non-logged in users? ==
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::If it's to escape the cold weather the in-vogue place to go is definitely Tatooine.  Great beaches, awesome bar scene and locals who can get you anything your heart desires. [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
  
''Disclaimer: I wrote the following without knowing that the feature was supposed to be opt-in''
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:::If you like snow: Michigan is great for the holidays. You can have a small town vibe, but with cultured cities all around. If you don't: The Florida Gulf Coast stays toasty throughout the early winter, and is pretty inexpensive.[[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 14:46, 15 November 2016 (EST)
: Case in point: [[Buenos Aires]], [[Hong Kong]], [[Paris]], and many other cities now have Orbitz banners in the header and the 'Get In' and 'Sleep' sections.
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: I understand the need for more funding, but nobody will ever say "Oh, how convenient, now I can buy plane tickets while in the middle of reading a Wikitravel article". On its current state is useless at the best, and obtrusive at its worst.
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::::There are beaches in Tatooine [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]]? I must go then. Michigan hmmm sounds a bit too cold for me, but maybe Miami for Christmas or as [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] suggested, Australia! I've always wanted to go to Brisbane. --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:50, 15 November 2016 (EST)
  
: Sometimes this is extremely ridiculous: just look at the article on [[Orania]].
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:::::If you like snow and Europe, the Alps are the best choice. France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, there are dozens of places where you can enjoy skiing surrounded by beautiful mountains. If you want to escape the winter freeze and you still like Europe, I'd say that [[Andalusia]] in Spain or [[Sicily]] in Italy are both great destinations. Many Europeans choose capital cities to celebrate New Year's but they can be very expensive. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 03:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
  
For those reasons I think anyway that having it as an opt-out is a terrible idea. [[Special:Contributions/190.189.234.13|190.189.234.13]] 22:57, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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:::::: [[Hong Kong]] definitely is one of the best places to be in during Christmas/New Year season: awesome parties, all kinds of carnivals/shows, great shopping opportunities, and the food (some of the best food I've ever tasted). You will never forget your New Year vacation there! So, go to [[Hong Kong]] and party hard!  --[[User:Binbin|Binbin]] ([[User talk:Binbin|talk]]) 08:51, 17 November 2016 (EST)
:The announcement is in the section above at [[#Travel booking tool!]]. <font color="#339989">–[[User:Sumone10154|'''<font color="#339989">sumone10154</font>''']]<sup>([[User talk:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">talk</font>]])</sup></font> 23:41, 1 December 2012 (EST)
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::I know. But according to that announcement,
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:::::::Hong Kong sure sounds like fun! Maybe I'll have to plan a trip there. But Switzerland is also great. I've traveled to there before and fell in love with the snow! Decisions, decisions... --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
:::If you log in to your Wikitravel account, you will need to go to your *preferences* in order to turn on this booking tool -- you will not see it at all unless you turn it on.
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::These ads are appearing to me as a non-logged-in user, and the only way I found to disable them is
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to log-in into an account, clearly making it opt-out.
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::Was that change intentional? In that case it's a horrible decision IMO. [[Special:Contributions/190.189.234.13|190.189.234.13]] 11:37, 2 December 2012 (EST)
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:This was discussed about a year ago and is one of the reasons why it is so quiet here. However ignoring question of whether a booking engine should be there, I find the implementation poor.
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We should revive/do a piece on the European Christmas markets...? Do a Google search for Wikitravel Christmas Market and a ton of our existing articles show up that we could link to. Maybe create a TOUR that includes the favorites? [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 20:41, 17 November 2016 (EST)
:I tried the booking banner from the [[Aberdeen]] page, trying to find a flight to there from Manchester. The article said that there were direct flights, so that was what I was expecting to be offered, but I was only offered a flight via Amsterdam, requiring an overnight stay and costing $407 return. But at Orbitz's own site, I was offered direct flights on the same dates for $184 return. There is also no easy way of finding out who Orbitz is, or of changing the currency from dollars.
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:Trying it on [[Orania]] gave the suggestion of Alexandria, which is a long distance away - the booking engine must know the correct airport for every page that it appears on.
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:It would be better to have the booking banner on the right hand side, above the adverts. This also gives the possibility of getting local bus and train companies to offer booking. I doubt that I will be looking to book a flight here, but a way of booking the bus from the airport would be useful. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 18:18, 3 December 2012 (EST)
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::Hi Alasdair -- I am looking into why the results are different. I tried the same search and got the same results you did. We're still working the kinks out and hope it can be a very useful tool indeed for our Wikitravelers. Please let me know if you see anything else that is suboptimal. Cheers, --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 7 December 2012 (EST)
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::I was about to mention the Christmas markets, they have great markets in [[Germany]], but here in [[Portugal]] we have some nice ones too, going to one tomorrow, lovely atmosphere, great entertainment for young and old. We have a nice article for [[Christmas Food]], we could use a similar layout for a list of markets? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 13:34, 19 November 2016 (EST)
  
==New administrators nomination==
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:::Great! I say we get started on it then :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 18:08, 21 November 2016 (EST)
We have a new nomination for the administrator on Wikitravel. Please have a look at [[Wikitravel:Administrator nominations|Administrator nominations]]. Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 20:34, 3 December 2012 (EST)
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== Town of Rochester, New York ==
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::::I´m happy to start something for the markets, any suggestions on the format or shall I do the food format? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:28, 22 November 2016 (EST)
  
There is Town of Rochester (Ulster County) [http://www.ulstertourism.info/] in New York State which is different from the larger, more familiar City of Rochester (Monroe County) in New York State. How would I add (name) the Town of Rochester here? The two Rochesters are over a hundred miles apart, not related at all. [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 18:10, 8 December 2012 (EST)
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:::::That'd be great [[User:Adzas|Adzas]]! Any format you think would be best :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:49, 22 November 2016 (EST)
* Reference: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester,_Ulster_County,_New_York] Wikipedia
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: Hi Gamweb! Thank you for your message. The best way is to create a page for Town of Rochester from the scratch since it doesn't exist here. Please have a look [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Town_of_Rochester&action=edit&redlink=1]. You would need to select the best template and just [[ Wikitravel: Plunge forward| plunge forward]]. Don't worry if you don't know how to fill out all the sections- someone will be along to help with it later! Once the page is created, we would need to create a '''Disambiguation Page''', similar to [[Boston (disambiguation)| this one]] so that nobody will get confused with the destination. Please let me know if there is anything else i can help with. Greetings, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 13:42, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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::::::I created [[Christmas Markets]] for now, work in progress. The layout is there, so all can easily add their favourite market and picture. It does not have to be just Europe, but it´s a start, any further input is welcome! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:38, 23 November 2016 (EST)
  
::There is already a disambiguation page at [[Rochester]]. I would suggest [[Rochester_(Ulster_County)]] might be best, county names are often used when there is more than one place of the same name in a state / country. But it worth asking "what do people say locally?", when buying a bus ticket to the town from the other side of the state, as this may suggest a better name. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 18:47, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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:::::::Work in progress still, I added some names and locations (tips from friends living in those places). I will add content but obviously feel free to jump in and make changes, add new locations. [[Germany]] is a popular location for those markets, lets see if we can add a few more different countries. Looking for some pictures now, will be uploaded shortly. Thanks all! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 06:38, 1 December 2016 (EST)
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:::::::Sounds great, thank you! I added the info about Switzerland, but I'll continue adding other info as well :) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 10:42, 1 December 2016 (EST)
  
:::Nice!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:49, 10 December 2012 (EST)
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== Pamphlet library anyone? ==
  
== [[Wikitravel:Requested articles| Requested articles]]==
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Pamphlets, leaflets.. Brochures?!
User Blist has recently created a [[Wikitravel:Requested articles| page]] with a list of requested articles that still don't exist on Wikitravel. Please [[Wikitravel: Plunge_forward| plunge forward]] and help us grow! Looking forward to your contributions! Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:13, 11 December 2012 (EST)
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Those paper things you find and collect on all travels - you know exactly which ones :)
  
== New Page - Kerhonkson ==
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I find that these are often more informative than my guidebooks and internet research, mainly because they are focused on one specific area (especially smaller places) and they almost always come with a great map!
  
I just created new page for [[Kerhonkson]], New York. It's been a while since I made a new page. Please look it over to see what's missing. (Auxiliary wikilinks) [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 22:48, 12 December 2012 (EST)
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I realise this suggestion has some difficulties, but will it be possible (and is there an interest), to build an online travel pamphlet library here on Wikitravel? It would also be super to be able to download them to a smartphone.  
: Great job! Thank you! I needed to change the headline "Go next" to "Get out" because that's still the proper name Wikitravel uses for this section. We would be changing this headline soon throughout all the articles. I'm looking forward to more contributions from you. Thank you again! Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 15:10, 13 December 2012 (EST)
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::Sorry about that. I was working in "parallel" with another travel site at the same time (enough said). [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 16:04, 13 December 2012 (EST)
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:::No worries. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 16:35, 13 December 2012 (EST)
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* [[Ellenville]], near Kerhonkson. Give it a look over. I still have to add some photos. [[User:Gamweb|gamweb]] 23:18, 16 December 2012 (EST)
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: Page looks great! Are there any other destinations you are planning to work at? Best, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 16:39, 17 December 2012 (EST)
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==[[Wikitravel: Usable articles]]==
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Foreseen difficulties like storage space and copyright infringement comes to mind - we might have to contact the creators of said pamphlets and ask permission to load it up here.  
Here is a list of articles that have been [[Wikitravel:Status rating | rated]] as '''Usable''' and need some attention. Please feel free to [[plunge forward| plunge forward]] and add some information. If you think that some of the articles shouldn't be there, please let us know.  See [[Wikitravel:Article status| this page]] for a description of what qualifies an article for different statuses. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:32, 17 December 2012 (EST)
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What do you guys think? [[User:TheTasteOfEverything|TheTasteOfEverything]] ([[User talk:TheTasteOfEverything|talk]]) 13:01, 10 December 2016 (EST)
  
== Some and some ==
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Sounds like a reasonable idea, if feasible. I have many Brochures from many places within Thailand, which will certainly be better than buying a guidebook,especially for those adventurous types who like to wander outside the usual tourist areas.
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[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 11.12.2016
  
I already run seahouseswebsite.co.uk for my community.  I made half a dozen or so edits to the Wikitravel page about Seahouses but what now appears on-line includes only '''some''' of those edits - in some cases leaving ungrammatical sentences. What did I do wrong?  Should I try again or is there some reason why my edits were edited?
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::Nice idea, but as you say, those printed materials are usually copyright protected, they get outdated quickly and on Wikitravel we don´t link to secondary sources, we want the actual original information in our articles. I would rather invite those who have pamphlets like you mention, to see what specific info is on it and to share it (reworded) here in our articles. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 06:54, 11 December 2016 (EST)
  
My edits included a reference to the Farne Islands. No Wikitravel page existed so I've just written one but I'm quite sure it needs proper formatting etc.
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Point taken Adzas. I guess this is what I do, rewording what I see - but, we do not see the detail and pics which the brochures provide. And, are they really copyright protected in Thailand? Like, brochures about particular Temples and similar?
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[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]])
  
Ideally can someone respond to mike@seahouseswebsite.co.uk?
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:I agree with Adzas, we should include useful information from the pamphlets, but reworded. I believe they are copyright protected, but perhaps you can check with the people who created them if it's possible :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:07, 12 December 2016 (EST)
[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 09:47, 18 December 2012 (EST)
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:Dear Bonniedougall! Some of the edits you made had to be deleted because you inserted too many external links on [[Seahouses| one page]] (there were 10 links leading to the same domain). Please read our [[Wikitravel:External links| external links policies]] to get more information. A couple of links on a page is ok but it is not our aim on Wikitravel to fill up the articles with external links. Anyone reading [[Seahouses]] article will see the link even if it's only one. I hope you understand.
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Before putting this suggestion here, I emailed the people who did a nice pamphlet for Kumejima and asked whether I can use their photos and maps on Wikitravel. They replied yesterday saying that it would be nice since they find it difficult to advertise to people outside of Japan! So, there's also that angle of us doing them, the travel destinations, a favour ;P But yeah, copyright... We'd have to ask every time and many will say no. It just occurred to me that it probably isn't copyright infringement to give things out for free that is already being given out for free at the source, right, but by putting it on Wikitravel we will be changing the copyright on the pamphlets, opening them up for everyone to use as they please! ... arrr.. I don't want to see errors in my master plan >_< =P Theoretically, we could just put a different license on the pamphlets?     
: I also noticed that you created [[Farne Islands]] page. We already had a page about Farne Islands, please have a [[The Farne Islands|look]]. That is why I need to ask you to merge the information on the page you created with the existing one. We do not duplicate pages on Wikitravel. Thank you! Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 18:22, 18 December 2012 (EST)
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Adzas, I don't think the out of date thing will be such an issue - attractions don't change all that often and people will hopefully upload new pamphlets to replace the old ones. People will probably also read the more updated Wikitravel article anyway. [[User:TheTasteOfEverything|TheTasteOfEverything]] ([[User talk:TheTasteOfEverything|talk]]) 03:22, 13 December 2016 (EST)
  
OK Alex, I've had another go which should be more compliant.  And I'm suggesting that the page entitled THE Farne Islands should be scrapped.[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 06:34, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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::I still think that adding pamphlets defeats the purpose of Wikitravel, where we want original content in our articles, without too many [[Wikitravel:External links|external links]], [[Wikitravel:Image policy|images]] etc. Our own article should be the pamphlet of a certain location I think. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:10, 12 January 2017 (EST)
: Bonniedougall- would you mind putting a template on the [[Farne Islands]] page you created? The page would look nicer and more organized. In this way I would be able to delete [[The Farne Islands]]. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 11:35, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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== Lindisfarne ==
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==Weather==
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Is there a preferred format for sharing typical weather for a given destination? [[User:Ozymandias|Ozymandias]] ([[User talk:Ozymandias|talk]]) 16:04, 13 December 2016 (EST)
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:{{Ping|Ozymandias}} Not sure what you have in mind but if you use one method of measuring temperature (e.g. Fahrenheit), please also put the other method in parenthesis (i.e. Celsius). [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 23:15, 17 December 2016 (EST)
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::This is a typical temp/weather box that's used here: http://wikitravel.org/en/Chicago#Climate Enjoy! [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 14:35, 9 January 2017 (EST)
  
Having mentioned the Holy Island of Lindisfarne on 'my' Seahouses page, and there having been no Holy Island of Lindisfarne page, I have created one - ready for the Lindisfarne folk to develop.  So I have left an email with them, at[http://www.holy-island.info/], drawing their attention to the matter.
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== Headings ==
[[User:Bonniedougall|Bonniedougall]] 08:47, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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: There is a Lindisfarne page aleady. I made yours a redirect to that. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 08:56, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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I am brand new to Wiki and created ny page, then somehow my headings lost their se parathion a and all but the first too be ame on line!  I tried pasting in headings from a different site but nothing works!. They are all in a block! I have also lost the Add Listing button?  [[User:Arlingham|Arlingham]] ([[User talk:Arlingham|talk]]) 19:02, 9 January 2017 (EST)
  
==Improvement Ideas==
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:Hello and welcome to Wikitravel! I currently don't see anything on your userpage. Could you provide more details as to what specific page you are trying to edit? [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 19:05, 9 January 2017 (EST)
We are planning to revitalize Wikitravel and our community! In 2013 we would like to improve technicality and usability of the site and we are open to any ideas! Please let us know of any new features you would like to have on WT and share with us your suggestions on how to make Wikitravel better. Thank you! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] 14:20, 20 December 2012 (EST)
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:Please list the appropriate pages to make suggestions. --[[Special:Contributions/118.93.73.30|118.93.73.30]] 03:16, 2 January 2013 (EST)
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==Policy on free-riding tips==
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M page is Arly but I don't think I have puny it yet I somehow lost all the indentation and had to change the headings to make sense but need to format but can't wo ou what to do?I am having trouble replying as I am using an iPhone and can't see what I am writing!  Y page title is Arlingham! [[User:Arlingham|Arlingham]] ([[User talk:Arlingham|talk]]) 19:24, 9 January 2017 (EST)
I got some second thoughts about deleting tips on how to evade a station entrance fee in Stockholm-Arlanda Airport: [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Stockholm&action=historysubmit&diff=1972045&oldid=1971916 Link to change log] What is Wikitravel's policy for riding transports, or entering venues, without a proper ticket? Is it a no-no, or are there circumstances when such information is allowed? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 19:12, 23 December 2012 (EST)
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:'''[[Arlingham]]''' I fixed it for you. Some of the headings are still non-standard but they are correctly formatted. Thanks for your additions--I know that typing on those things is a real bear. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 19:48, 9 January 2017 (EST)
:There is an [[Wikitravel:Illegal_activities_policy]]. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 19:14, 26 December 2012 (EST)
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:Based on the above policy I'd say it's clear that info should be deleted. It could be argued as acceptable e.g. if there's an official requirement to pay for a ticket but everybody ignores it and it isn't controlled or sanctioned - falling somewhat loosely under "Where police or public corruption mean that the written law of the land differs substantially from the practise of law enforcement." Maaaybe applicable in this case if all local U-30 people do it. [[User:Berserk|Berserk]] 23:36, 26 December 2012 (EST)
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:: Related is [[Gävle]], where I saw the need to point out that burning the Gävle Goat is illegal, since the goats have been burnt down by foreign travellers, who were deceived by locals to commit the act, with legal consequences. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 15:50, 27 December 2012 (EST)
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Latest revision as of 09:58, 7 February 2017

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

  • If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

Wikitravel Upgrade[edit]

Our site upgraded in June 2016!
We're happy to announce that Wikitravel has been updated to the latest version of mediawiki. We'd appreciate any help to catch and fix any bugs resulting from the update! Simply report bugs on our shared site.

Some of the new changes include:

  • an updated edit toolbar
  • an updated user toolbar
  • notifications
  • table of contents on banners now have dropdowns with sub-sections
  • multimedia galleries on every page
  • a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly
  • many small performance and efficiency changes


ideas for group travel, family that does not get together much[edit]

Hi What a fabulous project! I cannot believe I never found this before. Some of my family wants to get together more often and we are trying to organize a group trip, 5 or so days, prepaid food options, lots of activities, and I don't think we care where we go but some need to keep the costs down. Most of the family is in the north east. Any one have suggestions about places to go, cruises to try, etc.

Hi there! If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Vermont! It's beautiful there and relatively less costly than a lot of places in New England. IBJoel (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Vermont is a great suggestion - especially during foliage. You can check out activities and tours in different locations at PlacePass.com - should help you get inspired!

Hello! Ignore having family trips during Spring months March and April because of Spring Breakers. Cabo San Lucas has many beach hotels with cheap all-inclusive packages and fun water attractions for the kids. Puerto Peñasco aka Rocky Point has many affordable beach houses to rent. Catalina Island is chalk full of family visitors and easily noticeable activities all along the beach. I suggest renting a house or condo near the main city of Avalon. Catalina is my top preference for you because of the darling city and the family-friendly environment. IBrobin (talk) 16:12, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Re: Appearance of external links / Front-Linked listings[edit]

I am a new user and trying to find an answer to what I think is a simple question: What format should external links have? This is one of the most basic things that people would do in the wiki (adding links to sites) and yet I'm seeing an incongruity between formatting and policy. As it stands in the external links help page [1] we should add labels to web pages and I'm fine with that, but then when I use the code for listings (e.g. " < sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep > " ) it automatically goes back to footnotes and I can't seem to change it.

I would not bring this up if it was a recent issue but people have been talking about this (using / not using footnotes; replacing the number of the footnote with a nice icon [2]) since 2007 and yet the code is still doing its same old thing.

As a new user, trying to add info to the site and then having to spend hours (trying to figure out what's going on with external links and why I can't get them to display in the way that I've been told to display them) seems very counter productive and demotivating. It makes me wonder how many other laymen have tried to make changes to pages and then just end up abandoning the whole thing cause guidelines don't match what's really going on and it all just takes to long to find an answer. Latest discussion I've seen about this, just makes it seem as if nothing is being changed and so what [3]

Similarly, the whole discussion about front linked listings has been going on since before 2005 [4] with no clear resolution in the primary guides (help file) on formatting (from what I can see, correct me if I'm wrong). Whilst I at first preferred front links for their aesthetic and simplicity, reading other people's counterpoints make it clear why front links aren't a good idea: As stated by Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT) [5], he points out how some listings appear worse because they don't have hyperlinks or that having longer hyperlinks (thanks to the hyperlinked name being longer) would make them more likely to be clicked.

If icons were to be used (a nice globe icon, easily recognizable as world wide web) this wouldn't need to be a discussion and the points raised would be resolved, using footnotes does solve the issue but people also complain about the aesthetics of it etc. Rhetorical (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2016 (EDT)

Cannot edit my own user page[edit]

Hi I am trying to edit my user page while logged in. I have just created an account so that might be the issue. Error is "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Dark Tower" Is there anyway this can be fixed?

--Wandering Roman (talk) 03:51, 26 May 2016 (EDT)

Hi Wandering Roman, thank you for reaching out here. I've added a test message on your user page just now. Seems okay to me. Can you please try again (please blank my test message) now and let us know if you still have this error? Thank you! --Binbin (talk) 04:19, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry to say that it is still happening. Though I think there is a problem with the back end of the site. Have a look at the Abuse Log and you will see other people are having similar problems. http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:AbuseLog
Thanks for your help. Its very fast.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Looking at the log more closely looks like it was miss-configured and that this has been a reoccurring problem since 2012, though in 2012 the problem was occurring under the filter named The Beaver. You may want to contact IBobi, the administrator to look at the filter list as from what I have read it can only be fixed by admin/bureaucrat groups on WikiTravel
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Hi, are you trying to add a certain link to your user page? The filter you are mentioning is blocking certain links, if you just add text you should be ok. Let us know what exactly you are trying to add ok? Thanks! Adzas (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry, Adzas I am not just trying to post some basic information about my self. There are no internal or external links. Thanks for the help tho.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
I have disabled the Dark Tower abuse filter. Thank you for the heads-up, Wandering Roman! IBobi (talk) 15:56, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

Electric vehicle charging stations on Wikitravel/Autonomous vehicles for the future?[edit]

With these types of cars becoming increasingly popular and fully autonomous vehicles quickly becoming reality, should things such as charging stations be listed? In the future, what about autonomous pickup/dropoff locations as well? --Tyen (talk) 12:48, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

I for one hate driving with a passion especially in Los Angeles, the traffic hell of the universe. Charging stations wouldn't be useful listed on pages as they need specific address locations and individual city pages are too vague. Ibrshao (talk)

I don´t know how many of those charging stations would be available in a location, I think a mention that charging stations are available would be beneficial, but individual listings I don´t think that would be needed, it would be like posting all petrol stations in a location. Just my thought.... Adzas (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2016 (EDT)
True, posting them all would be indeed too much. --Tyen (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2016 (EDT)
Did anyone see that news article about the guy taking up three whole charging spots? IBJoel (talk) 12:59, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

New Update Today![edit]

Woohoo, hopefully everything goes smooth! Tyen (talk) 16:36, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

So far, so good I haven't noticed any problems. Has anything been reported so far? Koavf (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Luckily not too many issues with the switch! IBJoel (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Just a bit of spam but not too bad! Tyen (talk) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
I do an edit, and write an edit summary, but when I try to save it a pop-up asks me to write a another, separate edit summary. Nurg (talk) 04:45, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Well, sometimes it does it, but not always. When it happens, the heading of the pop-up is "Publish to {{SITENAME}}". Nurg (talk) 04:47, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Shared This should definitely be posted to the Pub on Shared. That's a serious bug. Koavf (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
OK. thanks. Nurg (talk) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Space travel[edit]

When it becomes available at what price point will you partake in space travel. Not the near earth orbit/ vomit comet stuff but actually leave the atmosphere to the moon type stuff. 10 thousand? 20 thousand? Ibrshao (talk)

Honestly, I can't even handle rollercoasters, so I'm not sure how well I'd do when pulling the Gs of space flight. And I mean, there's enough stuff on the planet I need to see IBJoel (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2016 (EDT)
I think once the technology allows the cost to be more reasonable, I'll be willing to spend 1k Tyen (talk) 13:51, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

If you were stranded alone on any island in the world, which island would you want it would be?[edit]

Imagine all islands are now deserted, left only with the remaining amenities left behind by its former dwellers. (think zombie apocalypse) IBrobin (talk) 13:39, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

I'd have to go with the old standard: Hawaii. Lots of rain, lots of sun, great views. I can think of worse places to spend the rest of my life (although hopefully a few other people can stop by, so it's not so lonely haha). IBJoel (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
Judging by google earth, Anuta island (part of the solomon islands) looks pretty cozy! Tyen (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
The Americas please!!!!!! Ibrshao (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Bora Bora!!! Adzas (talk) 11:49, 13 September 2016 (EDT)

[edit]

I just want to ask - what is the criteria for the banner photographs and what they can be of for the articles on Wikitravel? The main thing I noted was a banner photo of the wrong place, as I noted on the talk page! Wetter88 (talk) 12:17, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

Banners Wetter88, there are no hard and fast rules, except for the size and ratio of the photo. It's best to choose something engaging and illustrative and those can change over time if someone finds a better one. Koavf (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
I noticed that the banner picture on the Woking article wasn't in Woking, so I was wondering whether this meant it was invalid as it was the wrong place! Wetter88 (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Hi, you're right, the Woking banner is wrong. We will create a new corrected one very soon (unless you want to try and create a new one). Thanks, GiulioC (talk) 05:02, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Accuracy It's definitely better to have a photo that really represents the place you're going. Personally, I'm not very hung up on it, especially if the photo is of somewhere nearby or comparable. This example is just a busy train station--honestly, I don't think anyone will be disappointed if he gets to Woking and this scene isn't there. Koavf (talk) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Fitness Around the World[edit]

I'm US-based, and (especially in California) we have a major fitness sub-culture. Weightlifting, yoga, running, and the outdoors are all very big here. I was wondering about the fitness cultures of other countries and how those display themselves. Like here, running and physique are definitely the major areas, then probably yoga. What about Europe? Asia? How do different countries express their physicality? IBJoel (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

I like the British way-- http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fitness/2011/01/fitness_for_foreigners.html Ibrshao (talk) 17:57, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Interesting article, to be sure! IBJoel (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Embassy and consulate listings[edit]

What are your thoughts on having the embassy and consulate listings in the "Cope" sections of the main pages of every city? These listings also include code for the flag icons and add a lot bytes to the size of every page. They are also very distracting in the cases of some cities that have over 100 listings in this section and are rarely useful for the average traveler. I don't think many travelers will rely on wikitravel if they run into trouble or need a visa as most countries have a certain procedure for addressing these issues and travelers will visit the webpage of the applicable embassy via a google search. —The preceding comment was added by 50.195.72.217 (talkcontribs)

I agree. I remember in the past we had a discussion about this, let me see what I can find about it. Adzas (talk) 05:09, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
I think that these listings are most useful in the non-capital cities like Denver or Manchester. A traveller might be able get a visa needed for later when in such a city, and would probably not have though of looking for a consulate there. Conversely a list is probably not so useful in London where you would expect almost every country to have an embassy. AlasdairW (talk) 17:14, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
That can be addressed by noting the countries that have embassies/consulates in a single sentence for these smaller cities.

Site usage data[edit]

Hi Folks,

I have a quick question, is it possible to get page view counts for a particular period, from Wikitravel? For example, could I get a list of the top locations that are searched for on WT and associate a location with them? Kind of thinking of a heatmap for WT page popularity for london.

Thanks, Omar

Hi Omar, I'm terribly sorry about the delayed response, but that is a great idea! Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of feature at the moment. However, I will do my best to see if that's something we can implement in the near future. I will most definitely keep you updated and you'll be the first to know! IBkataoka (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

Conflict Photojournalism[edit]

Hello Everyone,

First and foremost I'm aware of the dangers present, please do not convince me not to do this, although you could suggest similar career paths. Lately I've been interested in photographers in poverty/war/conflict stricken areas. I'm not interested in the dangers per se but I am interested how people act in wartime and other dire situations. Let this be a place where we can discuss these things. Is anyone a photojournalist in the first place? Misuta trent (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2016 (EDT)Trent

Hi Misuta! That sounds like a very interesting career path. It reminds me of HONY (Humans of New York) where he interviewed Syrian refugees and American veterans affected by PTSD. It's crazy to think that these amazing/sad/inspirational stories are coming from people we see on the streets. What made you want to pursue this particular career path? IBkataoka (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

External Links Style, two interpretations[edit]

Hello. Some time ago i came across 2 different interpretations of external links style policy. Some admins approved the "blue bold clickable“ external link style (avoiding footnotes) and encouraged me to revert footnotes to "blue bold clickable“ style, while some other admins reverted existing "blue bold clickable“ external links back to "footnote“ style. Also deleted some edits by other users who added listings in "blue bold clickable“ style stating it was "bad format“, although it exactly conformed the example presented on WT policy page. Would like to know which interpretation is now valid and correct.

And would like to avoid off-topic comments about external links content, formatting and other policy because i ask about external links style. I know WT policy too, no need to redirect me to those pages which i already know well. Those two opposite interpretations coexist in written policy, it‘s like some of those policy texts are slightly incoplete or something, but when it comes to adding useful info which is encouraged by one admin but deleted by other admin, i start to feel as if WT is busy with anything else but not with creating a proper guide. How to be a useful contributor if even to trust admin is risky. Could someone provide a strict statement which external link style must be used, a "blue bold clickable“ one or a "footnote“ one? Local

And sorry, but where is a "sign" button after the site was upgraded? Local

Hi Local thanks for stopping by! I'm one of new hired admins overseeing Wikitravel from Internet Brands. I'm aware that you previously discussed this issue with several admins and it was brought to my attention by Triskelle not too long ago. Despite some confusion, we are allowed to use both the "blue bold clickable" style and the "footnote" style for listings. Upon discussing this with Triskelle, we decided that it was in our best interest to stick to the footnote style for the Vilnius page. Most listings on this page used a combination of the two formats so I've been fixing it to reflect the footnote style listings. However, the only time footnote styles are not allowed is when a user is trying to link to a source to prove a point or back up a fact. Hope this answers your question! Also you can sign off using "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Let me know if you need more clarifications, I'd be happy to answer them. IBkataoka (talk) 19:36, 16 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for matter-of-fact answer. Vilnius article or not Vilnius article it's irrelevant to me - can you confirm that previous policy change (March 2013) which made a switch from the "footnote" style to the "blue bold clickable" style is not valid anymore (with that exception you pointed out) and the corresponding policy page will be modified accordingly? Now it is only your "private answer" to my "private question", so to speak, i have no reason not to trust your explanation just don't see (so far) how it reflects on written policy (i.e. it does not reflect now). There was similar confusion back in 2013 but the policy page was quickly modified immediately when agreement among admins was met. As for the Vilnius article, you probably don't know all details, it was a Washington, D.C. article (a star one) which was taken as an example of how a nice article should look like. And Vilnius article was formatted after it. Discussions about it can be found in corresponding archived talk page. Can you confirm that Washington, D.C. article, in this respect, now can't be taken as such example? (I assume you do confirm). I ask for those details because there are no other confirmations of what you were discussing with that other admin, only those few lines above. I just want to be sure that i understand correctly. Whether it is this style or that style is irrelevant to me, i just want to be sure which one and that it won't be changed soon to the other one again. So thanks so far for your brief clarification, it is useful. And i assume there is no a "sign button" anymore, one have to sign only manually, is that correct? I'm a bit surprised that after the upgrade one have to do more manual work LOL... Local (talk) 06:58, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
MediaWiki help In case some of how the site works seems confusing, there is a wiki just about the software as well. That site may be able to help you but you can also ask for assistance here. Koavf (talk) 03:14, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for that link, at least so far i don‘t see how, why and when to use it (i know how to navigate and edit), but there are many (too many) little confusing things (maybe too little to bother admins with), and one, for example, is about recent upgrade, namely it reads above: "a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly". Is it about the option "Upload a picture" – the WT Shared page opens, then it reads "Upload Wizard" but it‘s pending, nothing happens – is it about it? When i open WT Shared and click "Upload a file" – the same good old upload page opens, it seems everything OK, will it work if i decide to upload a picture? I have uploaded many pictures to WT Shared previously so the "procedure" is no problem, and i have a little pile of new pictures i was going to upload later. Judging by how the "Upload a file" option works i will be able to, and judging by how the "Upload a picture" option works i won‘t be able to upload using this option. Is that correct? Because if that is correct, the statement at the top of this page seems misleading, it implies that currently any upload of pictures is temporalily impossible. Local (talk) 07:46, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Uploads There is an upload wizard that is being deployed (I have no insider information on this) and if it's like at Commons, it will not replace the standard method but complement it. Are there more things confusing or misleading about this wiki? I'd like to help if I can. Koavf (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Aha, it won't replace the existing method, that's clear then. I know that wizard at Wikimedia Commons, i uploaded many pictures there. Well, i always appreciate any practical help from anyone and so far i have implemented it (all that i've learned from some of admins) in the form of texts or parts of texts, including some listings, here on WT, so some travelers could avoid some misunderstandings or so. Still it looks like a swamp to me.
By "confusions" i mean things that i encountered from the very beginning when i decided to correct some mistakes, and later to add this and that, and later implementing advices of admins, and later implementing advices of other admins and that's not mentioning conflicting or duplicated expressions (statements) on policy pages. I tell that as a user who was willing to make this guide more usefull. Those little confusions are the actual obstacles. I feel that i will give up, like many other potential contributors that i have encountered. I don't know if this is a proper place to clearify such small things? Two examples of such actual obstacles (it's like anecdotes, actually). First one, banners. It reads: "If you'd like to update an article's banner with a new image, please post on that article's talk page. Make sure the community and admin team are in agreement that the new image should be featured." Looks clear, so i, as a newbie, uploaded banner to the article's discussion page. After a while one of admins transfered it to the article itself. So i uploaded several more banners with no problems and no objections. Then i came across that some banners depict other localities, i found out why admins who uploaded them made such mistakes (there were some mistakes made by the Flickr photographers too), understood their way of thinking and understood that they do not know pecularities of location while i do know. Here starts the anecdote: according to banner guidelines, admins can't make mistakes. There is only option "If you'd like to update banner" (a bit sarcastically). Well, i accept that, authorities is authorities, so i wanted to "update" those banners, made the relevant ones and uploaded in corresponding discussion pages, provided brief explanations - and started to wait when "the community and admin team will be in agreement that the new images should be featured". Still waiting. I think, it's more than a year already, so not so long. What else should i do? I can easily replace wrong banners with correct ones, but one of admins made a clever remark to my comment: "you know, the existing banner looks better, i think". So, authorities is authorities, i don't argue. I want to reach agreement untill i make any moves. Because i constantly see how relevant info (including pictures) are deleted or reverted due to the lack of competence. This is not bad, anyone can make mistakes. Me too. I am used to this way to solve such situation: someone makes a mistake, another one points out, and then the one who made the mistake corrects it. This is normal in my business. But WT does not have any guideline that explains how to behave when you see the mistake you can't so simply correct, let alone mistake made by admin. Second anecdote. Say, i need help. Policy pages and guidelines tell "do that", "don't do that", and supposedly there are all answers to all possible questions, and if the question still arise one can post it at the Pub. What if it's silly question, or say, uncomfortable question like mine (just look to the amount of my text above) - it would be useful to receive a sort of "private consultation" or something. No. Don't bother admins, read policy. If you don't understand, learn english. It took several month to discover that polite and formal "Please feel free to contact me..." which is a sort of a private attitude or just a formal expression on admin user's pages, because such legal possibility does not exist in policy. I was reading policy, why should i look at admin's pages? Why stranger who want to learn how to edit properly should look to admins pages? One of admins politely agreed to answer my questions but i suspect finally got annoyed with my ignorance. Can't complain, it was a favour. Do you now offer me similar favour? It's a swamp, i generally tend to obey policy, which is a real swamp and i actually don't understand how it can be advantageous to WT or IB or anyone else to maintain it in current state. If policy had no conflicting and semi-duplicated sections and statemens it would be beneficial to all, and the new (potential) contributors would act in more reasonable way, at least many of them. Let alone misunderstandings between admins and regular users. So, is it a proper place to be helpful? My talk page would be a good place to me but nobody will reply there, and your talk page will be ruined with such ridiculous amount of texts, just look to my reply LOL. Anyway, i'd like to obey policy, i don't want to criticize or edit it, this is not for me. My little questions are endless, i don't dare to post them here. Plus that new admin didn't reply, probably he won't. I'd be glad if that what was mentioned here by me would be solved LOL Local (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Help I'd be happy to help, Local. Obviously, if you are willing to put forth this much effort, you are willing to do some work to make this travel guide better. You can always post to my talk if you want or email me directly if you would prefer to not post it on a public forum. Koavf (talk) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks. Actually i was falling asleep when i was writing all this, so don't know what actual impression it made LOL... I'll have in mind what you say. Now it's not urgent because admin IBkataoka didn't confirm any detail i was asking above, at least so far. So i won't edit now because editing (or adding new info) involves some listings, and those listings have certain style, i.e. 2 possible styles, one of which is described in policy as a "must", while according to opinion of admin one must stick to another style. I don't want to do a double work, let admins do it if they see sense in that. So i'll simply wait and see. I can explain why opinion of admin is not sufficient: there is no any paragraph in written policy about double standards where guidelines are provided with explanation when one must stick to general policy, and when personal opinion of admin applies. So if now i start to write something and use the footnote style - someone else may revert or delete everything (or part), and he will be right because i violate existing policy. But i can see that potentially i may have actual "technical" questions in the future, i almost know what kind of. So i will contact you at your talk page, thanks. But so far i give up, i'm too busy to let me involve into confusions created by others :) Local (talk) 09:30, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Hey Local! Sorry about the delayed respond, but rest assured I wasn't ignoring you :) I've taken some time to figure out the best answers and options to help clarify policies regarding Wikitravel. I understand your frustration- few policies that exist now can contradict other policies and some even clash with each other. The admins and I are going to work together to re-edit some of the policies to make information more easily understandable. In the amidst of all this confusion, admins do and will make mistakes from time to time and that's okay! Since we are all human, it's pretty inevitable. We do however, try our best to keep mistakes to a minimum though. Also, there is NO such thing as a silly question-ever. We encourage questions and discussions such as these because that's what the Traveller's Pub is all about! And Wikitravel wouldn't be where we are today without the help and keen eye from our wonderful users.
Which brings me to the next issue. The sign off button that existed before have temporarily disappeared and the Upload Wizard is currently down, but we're glad you pointed this out to us because we are now working hard to get both back up and running. So thank you for pointing that out to us.
As for the external link style as I have stated before, we are allowed to use both formats. The only time footnotes are not allowed is when someone is trying to support their arguments or prove their information. The listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy. Yes, I also understand you are well aware of all the policies but this is the one I strongly urge you to follow. Because of this, many pages will need re-editing, but with the help of the admins and fellow Wikitravelers, we will able to restore the pages accordingly. If you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know! I would love to further discuss them with you and the rest of Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Oh and one more thing I forgot to add. Banners. Would the best solution be creating a central banner page where users can submit their banners? This would be a page that admins will check everyday. Let me know what you think! IBkataoka (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
No need to be sorry ;) . Really appreciate your professional response. And professional approach. So far it was like dealing with kindergarten kids, except Aleksandra who alone obviously couldn't be responsible for all nonsenses of others. Your comments are crystal clear. Your attitude regarding footnote vs blue-bold-clickable style is crystal clear, and even the reason why it is such is clear to me. Also, i think i see the reason why my attitude regarding those styles seems not exactly clear for you, let alone others. So i do not have and didn't have complaints, thus how everything will be solved (this way or that way) is not my business, that is, i don't insist that this or that must be solved in this or that way. So i close my questions - you have answered them, and now i'll simply comment few things, as if responding to your "if you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know!".
  • Banners. I don't trust admin team and don't care about their competence because i'm perfectly competent myself to judge about technical and aesthetic qualities of banners, pictures, composition of them within text, aesthetics and composition of text with and without graphics, value of templates, how and why templates make impact on general appearance, and how details and specifics of formatting of both text and images make impact on the whole, that is, on general appearance of the page; also what is primary and secondary for the guide and how it fit or don't fit policy and guidelines. So, first of all, criteria provided at banner upload page are pretty sane, or normal if you like. I know that my banners meet all requirements and know why they do, and why there may be some doubts at some points - this is because for some particular places it is very difficult to find a proper source to create the banner, the sources (photos, that is) are scarce and i know that they are scarce and why. I, to be honest, do not need advices in this respect; my questions about banners were triggered by my bad experiences and distrust. Which turned out to be sane tactics. So i don't know - do you experience some confusions with users who make banners? That is, are there cases when they make wrong or inappropriate banners? I can say that initially, when banners were just introduced (not so long ago), i experienced one inconvenience, asked at Pub twice and received the reply of admin once, reply was off-topic and useless. By that time there were only few banners, now there are many but the question is still relevent to some extent: where are they? I don't talk about pages - where are the banners stored? I store my banners among my uploads at WT Shared. The point is that it is very useful to have a possibility to see them all (created by others) at one glance. When you see them all (like google search images, for example) you can judge about both whole and details in all aspects: content, aesthetics, trend. You then can judge yourself what are the requirements, what is considered "nice" and "appropriate". So they must be already approved by admin team. This would be genuinely useful. Maybe it could be just display, while they could be stored where they are now.
  • Footnote vs blue-bold-clickable styles. You say "listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy" and I know why you do but you don'y know why i stubbornly don't want to accept that. At least i have such impression - do you see where the point is? In chronology and laziness. Did you check chronology and did you take into account human laziness? I now don't ask anything nor complain about something - i simply tell you in playfull manner what one can clearly see if he properly investigates the issue. I take into account that you are a new admin, i am newbie too so there are not so much differences in some aspects. So, initially there were only footnotes, it was not even a style but simply the "technical solution" or so. One option, one style. And all policy was written accordingly, there were neither confusions nor doubts nor misunderstandings in this respect because external links were supposed to be placed in those footnotes, sorry my english vocabulary is very limited, especially when it comes down to "technical" expressions, so please take that into account. Then, both WT community and admin team, found that the footnot style is visually annoying and practically inconvenient. Arguments were provided. Small discussion took place. No objections were raised. Aleksandra approved - but i have to say that i have no clue whether others were aware about this decision at all, i assume they are obliged to be aware but i think they simply silently accept such things and immediately forget. This is about 2012/2013, i also want to point out that your friend from Russia became admin later. So - i stress that - needful corrections on appropriate policy page were made. They still present. There is some pecularity: everything was designend, especially at "technical" point, that external links can be reached using footnotes, so if you want to make a blue-bold-clickable external link you have to do that manually. I don't know - maybe after recent upgrade this was improved? I don't see much difference, manually or not manually, simply when something works automatically it is more obvious. But this is secondary because the policy is primary. Changes in policy were made and requirements were described extremely clear, citation: "No footnotes. Travel guides do not use footnotes!". I was and am constantly pointing this requirement of policy because any other opinions are just private opinions and violate WT policy. Create a section of double standards or revert those changes or make other appropriate changes instead. It would be professional. Now it is a kindergarten. So, i continue about external links style. Here laziness comes into force: appropriate changes about style were made, having in mind that this applies to all external links. Now see - all policy is written in footnote style, to edit entire policy is a decent work, to say the least. So it was supposed that if policy has proper description about external link styles, it should be sufficient and everything else goes without saying. So let's see Listings page: humble change was made there too - "the URL for the official Web site for this listed entry. To display properly as a working, clickable hyperlink, either http:// or https:// must be included before the rest of the URL! (see external links for more guidelines)". Nothing special, one should see what kind of edit was made at 18:27, 15 March 2013 right after changing the Style Policy - very minimal correction, editor had in mind that the new style policy applies and this goes without saying. Isn't all that sufficient and doesn't it go without saying? Now the new admin comes. Indeed, why it should go without saying, all policy is written in footnote style, all articles have footnote styles, so what should here go without saying? In my oppinion, here should go without saying that admin team can't be a kindergarten, and that private opinions are not even secondary - they are nothing. And i indeed lost my temper during that silly conversation with your russian friend. I had idea to improve some articles of RU WT, but now not interested. So I continue. Blue-bold-clicable style was some sort of novelty, having in mind that all articles will be gradually changed from footnote style to blue-bold-clickable style. So both styles coexist, but since all texts are experiencing edits from time to time, it was expected that all footnotes will be smoothly replaced with blue-bold-clickable links. Like you pointed out - "many pages will need re-editing" LOL. Are you aware what you are re-editing and why? If you have professional approach, relax first, make appropriate changes in policy, then act according to the policy. Your choice what and how to edit in policy, but i have to say that if your coworkers didn't explain everything what i have told you here - this is not admin team, it's a kindergarten. Local (talk) 08:41, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
Hi Local! Glad you stayed around to discuss this with me further. The admin team is a group of one the hardest working people that I know and although you may disagree, I know that they are doing their best. We may have had some miscommunication here and there, but please don't blame them. I assure you that from here and on we will all be on the same page. I sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for all the stress Wikitravel has caused you so far. As I've stated before, the admin team and I will need to thoroughly re-vist some of the policies and edit them accordingly so please be patient with us :) I will be sure to take your suggestions/comments and keep them at the top of my mind! Especially having the option to view all the banners made by users in one glance (That's a great idea!) I do however, still stand by my external link format that I've stated earlier. I'm glad that you find my reasoning for them crystal clear. Should you choose to accept them, I hope that you will continue to stick around to make contributions and edits to Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 12:42, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
As some of the edits that are mentioned above were done so long ago, it is hard to remember all details. I would just like to add something about the changing of banners (and other information). Usually if you see incorrect information, everyone here is entitled to change information, as long as you put a reason in the comment field, so all understand why something was removed/changed. With the banners, many people spent a lot of time finding pictures and uploading them, so just changing a banner because you don´t like a picture we don´t do, we try to discuss first on the discussion page of the article, in order to respect all editors here. Obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion. We always try to answer any questions asked by users, at times questions are not seen due to high amount of spam, some edits are auto patrolled and only seen later etc etc, so if you don´t get an answer somewhere, feel free to send a message to a user or admin directly, that usually works. The external link discussion has been going on for a while, mainly because the "add listing" format comes up with the footnote style and it could not be changed at the time of discussion (tech issue). There were other priorities to focus on, and to be honest, my priority has been content, and when editing a page and I notice something totally against our policies I will change it. That´s why it is so great to have so many editors here, one looks specifically at the policies, one looks at content, another looks at pictures etc etc. Since the latest upgrade there is much less spam so all of us will have more time to look at the details, on the EN version and on the language versions too. Participating here is not meant to be stressful, enjoy it, we all work together on this great project. Adzas (talk) 09:45, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks Adzas for your matter-of-fact comment, there is nothing to disagree with, it all goes without saying, so to say. You told some totally new things that i didn't know. This guide (WT) is rather widely used, i know that from some travel forums, and from those forums i discovered that source of some misleading info comes from WT (there may be more sources of course). So basically i'm interested in content too, and one of annoying things was that admins revert correct content to outdated content and provide explanations (different in different cases), and those explanations always are statement that this edit is totally against policies. I don't want to focus now on this (it's endless), i'd like to clearify those new to me things in more detail, say, some things about those banners. This is quite handy example. Your statement: "obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion." . So this is a case, this is what i wanted to do. To me no discussion is needed, just i expect that admin will come and revert it, stating that my "knowledge" is wrong because he knows better (or so, i'm simplifying). So, to prevent that, i posted simple question, something like "this one is wrong" and "let me know if i can replace it with the right one" (actual coment was longer). That is, i wanted and still want to reach agreement before i make any move, no discussion is needed. It was rather long ago indeed, i stopped editing because i don't know how to behave with those wrong banners. Wrong by content, not because i didn't like it. It was admin who didn't like correct one. So, as you see, it's such a simple thing and everyting turns into such a mess because there is no clear guidance what to do in case of mistakes. That option "if you want to update the banner", well, it is more relevant to photos that illustrate the text, while banner is more for representation, but yes, this option is usefull, but it does imply that existing banner is still correct, still represents the article, and may be replaced with simillarly correct one but with more qualities etc. While wrong content, incorrect location is a different thing. I assume it's a rare exception. Maybe even hardly possible. But still. If this is some obscure station (like in other discussion above) i agree that this is not very relevant but why not to replace it if you can make a correct one... and besides, this would be professional approach. But i talk about panoramic landscapes, manors, castles - i agree with you in all details, that is, that such banner should be replaced, but how one can do that if policy does not explain how and whether this is allowed? Once it's absent in policy - it goes without saying that this is not allowed. I assume(d), this is a prerogative of admin team. It would be quite normal. Editing is editing, adding new text or images is still editing, but mistakes left because of lack of knowledge, competence, by mistake, intentionally is a different thing, it's not always clear that and whether this is an actual mistake (otherwise it would not be left). So it would be normal if admin team has prerogative to deal with all obscure mistakes of content that occur. My attempt to clearify that ended in stern silence. Long or not long ago, it's secondary - it could be many more recent misunderstandings that ended in silence, just i got fed up. Now summer ended, i decided to try to clearify some things. So who can correct mistakes, like in case with those banners? Anyone? Or admin team? Or anyone can report to admin team and they will take care? I don't ask to answer, i'd like to see what policy says :) . Maybe there is some explanation, i could miss it, that's quite possible. I just want to add about that what is "obvious", like in your saying about banners with incorrect locations - there were many obvious things to me, but when admin says that for him it's obvious that he's right and i'm wrong and provide arguments that illustrate certain gap in his certain knowledge - what one should do then? This turns your reasonable advice to behave reasonably and sanely into impasse. And that is what wasted majority of my time on WT. Local (talk) 15:59, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Admin issues Local, I can't speak to any other admins but I am an admin here and I am not affiliated with Internet Brands. If you feel like someone did something wrong or that you simply don't understand, you can of course contact him directly or if you want an outside perspective, you can ask me. I'm glad you're here and have been here for awhile--I hope you want to continue contributing. If you'd like, you can send me an email. Koavf (talk) 16:08, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Thanks again for your input Local. Sorry you feel your time is wasted here, we appreciate anyone´s input and edits. For future edits, just plunge forward, also with banners. We are all human, we can all make mistakes, admin on this site too, so as Koavf says, if you feel you are not getting a response or the incorrect response or there are doubts, contact an admin directly. We are looking forward to further edits from you! Adzas (talk) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Wait, wait, i assume there is no policy that allows to "contact directly", no? It's a bit anecdotically but i was reading "Plunge forward" policy a minute ago and guessing what does this mean: "Ignoring authority....Don't bother asking...". Maybe there is no doubts for you, but policy tells quite different... LOL .. I'll better wait for the updated policy version and see. If won't die until that LOL.. Local (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
You are always welcome to contact an admin directly as Koavf and Adzas have suggested. But yes! Please do stick around for some updates and we hope it's to your liking :) Cheers! IBkataoka (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
IBkataoka, thanks for your polineness and good will, I appreciate it, but clarity in our "semi-private" conversation is not a policy; i'm now starting to suspect that i was wrong thinking that admin team should act more reasonably - how and why to act reasonably if policy is a mess... LOL Local (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
This project has been running pretty well since 2003 with the policies/guidelines that are currently in place. Times change so policies/guidelines could be updated where necessary, but I don´t think they are a mess, sorry again you feel that way. As IBkataoka says, some updates are looked at so probably best to take it from there. Happy editing! Adzas (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Evil website wants to steal your content[edit]

The evil website that started with stolen content wants to steal even more content. I cannot link because of the filter, but you know which website I am talking about. —The preceding comment was added by 62.212.73.246 (talkcontribs)

Fork The content forked to another site is totally within the bounds of the license that Evan and Maj chose for this project. 62.212.73.246, there is nothing "evil" about reproducing it (and building upon it as well)--it's part of the purpose of Wikitravel/voyage. Koavf (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
I wouldn't say duplicating this site is "Evil", just pointless—The preceding comment was added by 109.156.38.138 (talkcontribs)

External links to printable PDF maps[edit]

I would like to add links to printable maps I created on Inkatlas (example), but it seems like this is against the current External Links policy. I think a free, detailed, up to date printable atlas is something that's very useful to travellers. There is no way to include this external content in Wikitravel itself. Are such links, in fact, against the policy? If so, can an exception/change be made? Full disclosure: inkatlas.com is a project I'm working on in my spare time. Kontextify (talk) 10:57, 14 October 2016 (EDT)

Hi Kontextify, thanks for expressing your concern! I agree with you, a map is an important tool to travellers. However, external links such as yours have been reverted because it requires a user to go to your page and download the map in a PDF format. Popular pages such as Manhattan and San Francisco already have maps displayed within the pages that users can refer to. We do appreciate you looking out for fellow travelers though! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:21, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
I do appreciate the maps already included in articles, but I find they're often too small or not detailed enough to serve as a proper paper map of a place. Would it not be useful to link to a detailed printable map in addition to having the embedded ones? For example, articles about national parks and similar destinations can have links to printable maps with trails and terrain data (useful for hiking). Unfortunately, there seems to be no way of adding the PDF directly to Wikitravel. Kontextify (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
Adding files In fact, these maps are made from OpenStreetMap data, which we can add to Shared. The licensing is not a problem. Koavf (talk) 22:05, 17 October 2016 (EDT)

Destination of the Month[edit]

The end of the month is right around the corner, which calls for a new Destination of the Month! If you have any suggestions on where it should be for the month of November, be sure to stop by the Destination of the Month page and nominate a place! Cheers :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 19:41, 20 October 2016 (EDT)

North America In the United States, it is Thanksgiving season, so something related to our colonial history or the harvest would be appropriate. Additionally, it's autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, so somewhere that has beautiful vistas for seeing the leaves change could be good. Alternately, we could go the exact opposite route and encourage our Northerner readers to hit the beaches of New Zealand or Tuvalu... Koavf (talk) 21:21, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
That's a good idea Koavf! Do you know of any nice places in particular? --IBkataoka (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
User:IBkataoka Not off-hand. Of course, the trick is that we would need to have a germane destination that also has high-quality content here. Koavf (talk) 23:00, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
Agreed, Koavf. I'll have to do some digging and researching then :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2016 (EDT)
I don´t know the area too well, but I remember the beautiful colours of the leaves this time of year in New England, maybe pick a location there? No beautiful leave colours but Portugal is also still nice to visit in November. More chance of rain but overall still lovely temperatures and sunny days. Adzas (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2016 (EDT)
Awesome, thanks for your input Adzas! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2016 (EDT)

Upcoming Holiday Travels[edit]

With some of our favorite holidays coming up, what are some of the best places to visit around Christmas and the New Year? Or maybe even to escape the holidays? I'm open to any suggestions! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2016 (EST)

It's usually so expensive to travel during those months but If I had a choice (as a person from california) I would go to Australia to escape the winter weather! Tyen (talk) 14:40, 15 November 2016 (EST)
If it's to escape the cold weather the in-vogue place to go is definitely Tatooine. Great beaches, awesome bar scene and locals who can get you anything your heart desires. Ibrshao (talk)
If you like snow: Michigan is great for the holidays. You can have a small town vibe, but with cultured cities all around. If you don't: The Florida Gulf Coast stays toasty throughout the early winter, and is pretty inexpensive.IBJoel (talk) 14:46, 15 November 2016 (EST)
There are beaches in Tatooine Ibrshao? I must go then. Michigan hmmm sounds a bit too cold for me, but maybe Miami for Christmas or as Tyen suggested, Australia! I've always wanted to go to Brisbane. --IBkataoka (talk) 14:50, 15 November 2016 (EST)
If you like snow and Europe, the Alps are the best choice. France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, there are dozens of places where you can enjoy skiing surrounded by beautiful mountains. If you want to escape the winter freeze and you still like Europe, I'd say that Andalusia in Spain or Sicily in Italy are both great destinations. Many Europeans choose capital cities to celebrate New Year's but they can be very expensive. GiulioC (talk) 03:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
Hong Kong definitely is one of the best places to be in during Christmas/New Year season: awesome parties, all kinds of carnivals/shows, great shopping opportunities, and the food (some of the best food I've ever tasted). You will never forget your New Year vacation there! So, go to Hong Kong and party hard! --Binbin (talk) 08:51, 17 November 2016 (EST)
Hong Kong sure sounds like fun! Maybe I'll have to plan a trip there. But Switzerland is also great. I've traveled to there before and fell in love with the snow! Decisions, decisions... --IBkataoka (talk) 14:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)

We should revive/do a piece on the European Christmas markets...? Do a Google search for Wikitravel Christmas Market and a ton of our existing articles show up that we could link to. Maybe create a TOUR that includes the favorites? IBobi (talk) 20:41, 17 November 2016 (EST)

I was about to mention the Christmas markets, they have great markets in Germany, but here in Portugal we have some nice ones too, going to one tomorrow, lovely atmosphere, great entertainment for young and old. We have a nice article for Christmas Food, we could use a similar layout for a list of markets? Adzas (talk) 13:34, 19 November 2016 (EST)
Great! I say we get started on it then :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 18:08, 21 November 2016 (EST)
I´m happy to start something for the markets, any suggestions on the format or shall I do the food format? Adzas (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2016 (EST)
That'd be great Adzas! Any format you think would be best :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2016 (EST)
I created Christmas Markets for now, work in progress. The layout is there, so all can easily add their favourite market and picture. It does not have to be just Europe, but it´s a start, any further input is welcome! Adzas (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2016 (EST)
Work in progress still, I added some names and locations (tips from friends living in those places). I will add content but obviously feel free to jump in and make changes, add new locations. Germany is a popular location for those markets, lets see if we can add a few more different countries. Looking for some pictures now, will be uploaded shortly. Thanks all! Adzas (talk) 06:38, 1 December 2016 (EST)
Sounds great, thank you! I added the info about Switzerland, but I'll continue adding other info as well :) --IBkataoka (talk) 10:42, 1 December 2016 (EST)

Pamphlet library anyone?[edit]

Pamphlets, leaflets.. Brochures?! Those paper things you find and collect on all travels - you know exactly which ones :)

I find that these are often more informative than my guidebooks and internet research, mainly because they are focused on one specific area (especially smaller places) and they almost always come with a great map!

I realise this suggestion has some difficulties, but will it be possible (and is there an interest), to build an online travel pamphlet library here on Wikitravel? It would also be super to be able to download them to a smartphone.

Foreseen difficulties like storage space and copyright infringement comes to mind - we might have to contact the creators of said pamphlets and ask permission to load it up here. What do you guys think? TheTasteOfEverything (talk) 13:01, 10 December 2016 (EST)

Sounds like a reasonable idea, if feasible. I have many Brochures from many places within Thailand, which will certainly be better than buying a guidebook,especially for those adventurous types who like to wander outside the usual tourist areas. Avemario (talk) 11.12.2016

Nice idea, but as you say, those printed materials are usually copyright protected, they get outdated quickly and on Wikitravel we don´t link to secondary sources, we want the actual original information in our articles. I would rather invite those who have pamphlets like you mention, to see what specific info is on it and to share it (reworded) here in our articles. Adzas (talk) 06:54, 11 December 2016 (EST)

Point taken Adzas. I guess this is what I do, rewording what I see - but, we do not see the detail and pics which the brochures provide. And, are they really copyright protected in Thailand? Like, brochures about particular Temples and similar? Avemario (talk)

I agree with Adzas, we should include useful information from the pamphlets, but reworded. I believe they are copyright protected, but perhaps you can check with the people who created them if it's possible :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 14:07, 12 December 2016 (EST)

Before putting this suggestion here, I emailed the people who did a nice pamphlet for Kumejima and asked whether I can use their photos and maps on Wikitravel. They replied yesterday saying that it would be nice since they find it difficult to advertise to people outside of Japan! So, there's also that angle of us doing them, the travel destinations, a favour ;P But yeah, copyright... We'd have to ask every time and many will say no. It just occurred to me that it probably isn't copyright infringement to give things out for free that is already being given out for free at the source, right, but by putting it on Wikitravel we will be changing the copyright on the pamphlets, opening them up for everyone to use as they please! ... arrr.. I don't want to see errors in my master plan >_< =P Theoretically, we could just put a different license on the pamphlets? Adzas, I don't think the out of date thing will be such an issue - attractions don't change all that often and people will hopefully upload new pamphlets to replace the old ones. People will probably also read the more updated Wikitravel article anyway. TheTasteOfEverything (talk) 03:22, 13 December 2016 (EST)

I still think that adding pamphlets defeats the purpose of Wikitravel, where we want original content in our articles, without too many external links, images etc. Our own article should be the pamphlet of a certain location I think. Adzas (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2017 (EST)

Weather[edit]

Is there a preferred format for sharing typical weather for a given destination? Ozymandias (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2016 (EST)

Template:Ping Not sure what you have in mind but if you use one method of measuring temperature (e.g. Fahrenheit), please also put the other method in parenthesis (i.e. Celsius). Koavf (talk) 23:15, 17 December 2016 (EST)
This is a typical temp/weather box that's used here: http://wikitravel.org/en/Chicago#Climate Enjoy! IBobi (talk) 14:35, 9 January 2017 (EST)

Headings[edit]

I am brand new to Wiki and created ny page, then somehow my headings lost their se parathion a and all but the first too be ame on line! I tried pasting in headings from a different site but nothing works!. They are all in a block! I have also lost the Add Listing button? Arlingham (talk) 19:02, 9 January 2017 (EST)

Hello and welcome to Wikitravel! I currently don't see anything on your userpage. Could you provide more details as to what specific page you are trying to edit? Tyen (talk) 19:05, 9 January 2017 (EST)

M page is Arly but I don't think I have puny it yet I somehow lost all the indentation and had to change the headings to make sense but need to format but can't wo ou what to do?I am having trouble replying as I am using an iPhone and can't see what I am writing! Y page title is Arlingham! Arlingham (talk) 19:24, 9 January 2017 (EST)

Arlingham I fixed it for you. Some of the headings are still non-standard but they are correctly formatted. Thanks for your additions--I know that typing on those things is a real bear. Koavf (talk) 19:48, 9 January 2017 (EST)