Difference between revisions of "Wikitravel:Travellers' pub"

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The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
  
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
  
{{disclaimerbox|If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to that article.
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{{disclaimerbox|*If you have a question or suggestion about a ''particular'' article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to ''that'' article.
  
If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ Mediawiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
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*If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
  
If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.
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*If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.}}
 
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}}
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<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. '''three months''' after the last comment in that discussion) that could or should be moved to a [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|talk page]], please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
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* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page
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* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to the policy or expedition discussion page
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* A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
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* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to to where the main discussion took place.
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to '''[[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]]''' and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
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{{WikitravelDoc|collaboration}}
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[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
 
[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
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[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
 
[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
 
[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
 
[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
[[ko:Wikitravel:Travellers' pub]]
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[[ko:Wikitravel:사랑방]]
 
[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
 
[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
 
[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
 
[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
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[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
 
[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
 
[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
 
[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
----
 
  
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==Wikitravel Upgrade==
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{{disclaimerbox|<big>'''Our site upgraded in June 2016!'''</big>
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<br>
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We're happy to announce that Wikitravel has been updated to the latest version of mediawiki. We'd appreciate any help to catch and fix any bugs resulting from the update! Simply report bugs [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Category:Tech_requests on our shared site].
  
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Some of the new changes include:
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*an updated edit toolbar
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*an updated user toolbar
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*notifications
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*table of contents on banners now have dropdowns with sub-sections
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*multimedia galleries on every page
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*a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly
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*many small performance and efficiency changes
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}}
  
== Templated See and Do listings ==
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== ideas for group travel, family that does not get together much ==
 
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Hi there. I'm only a new 'WikiTraveler', but am a seasoned Wiki-editor with many years experience. I am hoping to make some big contributions to this site, but something has been bugging me lately. I find that the See and Do listings on some articles can get very messy and disorganised. I think if we were to organise this information into a template/table, this would be much better for viewers to decipher information from, and also improve the quality of our articles.
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This has been proposed many years ago at [[Wikitravel_talk:Attraction_listings]], but with little discussion or progress. It seems many other language WikiTravels do it. [http://wikitravel.org/ja/%E3%83%AB%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%91%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3#.E8.A6.B3.E3.82.8B See here] for a Japanese example. I understand we use WikiCode tags, and it could take a long time to convert ''every'' article to a template format. One option is to keep the WikiCode we use, but change how the system organises the info within the tags; from a jumbled text wall, to an organised table format. This would allow for a total revamp across the board, yet with minimal effort.
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Any other thoughts, ideas or comments? Thanks, [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] 08:56, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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: One of the reasons the wikicode tags were used was to add the "edit" links to make it easier for non-technical contributors to add and edit listings.  As far as I'm aware there would be no way to achieve similar functionality using templates. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 10:30, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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:: Maybe this is just me... I feel like the Japanese presentation is a bit over the top, but I'd be quite happy just to add a bit more formatting to the current presentation. Just a bit of italics here and there, that kind of stuff. Most English-language print guidebooks do this, and I think it aids readability and makes it easy to spot when a listing is missing a piece of info. --[[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 14:18, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::Our listings already use bold and italics.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 18:50, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::We do have a great system for adding listings. This system can easily be kept. What would be changed is where that information goes. There has to be a page somewhere (probably a MediaWiki: page) that organises the listing into the format it currently is, with the bold font, italics, etc. From a glance at this page, it seems [[User:IBobi]] handles the wiki's technical stuff, so maybe he would know how to change it.
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::::The Japanese format does take it a step overboard with all the colours and pictures. We could always have a much more toned down version. I just feel the way it is now is really messy. Look at the opening times on the [[Dhaka#Buildings|first listing here]]; it's all over the place. A possibility could be just to add more bold/italics/underlines, or even put some information on separate lines or dot points. Does anyone want to have a go at fixing it up? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 04:28, 12 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::: Yes, I know they already use some bold and italics... I was saying I think they could use a little more. --[[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 10:15, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Well, to be honest, I wouldn't know how to change them.  But a good start would be creating a mockup.  [[Wikitravel talk:Listings]] would be a good place to discuss the mockup once you create one.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 19:26, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::I certainly wouldn't want to see the listings become as colorful and complex as the ones on the Japanese site and I like the tag system we have now, but I think some minor tweaking couldn't hurt - putting the opening hours and the price info in italics, to further distinguish them from the description of the place, would really tidy up the presentation (whether this can actually be done I don't know, but I'm just throwing that out there). I really wouldn't want to see any more bolded text in the listings - as of now only the '''name''' of the place is bolded, and I like that because it highlights it and makes it easier on the eye when you're scanning an article looking for a specific listing. [[User:PerryPlanet|PerryPlanet]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:PerryPlanet|Talk]]</sup></small> 10:31, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::::We could make the phone number blink!  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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Moving the hours to a separate line could be really useful. I think we could make them more readable:
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Current version:
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* <see name="International Spy Museum" alt="" address="800 F St NW" directions="" phone="+1 202 393-7798" url="http://spymuseum.org/index.php" hours="9AM-5PM or 9AM-6PM daily, last admission one hour before close" price="Adults: $20, seniors: $15, children (5-11): $15, 4 &amp; under: Free" lat="" long="" email="" fax="">D.C.'s newest hot attraction's principal claim to fame among locals is the extraordinarily long line that usually winds out the doors (not to mention the high price tag). Its popularity, while a bit disproportionate given all the other great free museums in town, is not unwarranted—its exhibits are interesting to anyone even marginally interested in espionage and Cold War history, and it also has a great exhibit tailored specifically to kids.</see>
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Another idea:
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*'''International Spy Museum''', 800 F St NW, ☎ +1 202 393-7798, [http://spymuseum.org/index.php 1].
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:''9AM-5PM or 9AM-6PM daily, last admission one hour before close.''
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:D.C.'s newest hot attraction's principal claim to fame among locals is the extraordinarily long line that usually winds out the doors (not to mention the high price tag). Its popularity, while a bit disproportionate given all the other great free museums in town, is not unwarranted—its exhibits are interesting to anyone even marginally interested in espionage and Cold War history, and it also has a great exhibit tailored specifically to kids.
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:'''Price''': Adults: $20, seniors: $15, children (5-11): $15, 4 & under: Free.
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Good idea to take a fresh look at this. We'll have to wait until we have functional tech support, or the ability to do our own tech support, before we can implement this, but it's good to figure out what we want in the meantime.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 15:55, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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:That's great, Peter! The separate lines makes it much easier to read the information, instead of it being a jumbled mess. Most travel guides do organise the info how we do it now, (all in one long spiel, rather than spaced out) but that's just because they need to fit all the info into a specific number of pages. We have much more room than books, so it makes sense that we make use of it and make the info easier to read for viewers. I'll do some perusing and see if I can find out how to edit the backend stuff. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 07:05, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:Excellent suggestion! [[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] 07:15, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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::If anyone wants to have a go searching for how to modify the backend code that configures the layout, [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Allmessages&ot=html here] may be a good start. That's a list of all the technical MediaWiki pages that can be tweaked. Some pages have the prefix "listing", which might be somehow relevant. But don't take my word for it; the page we need might not be there. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 09:02, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::Keep in mind that, despite the prevalence of mobile options in the modern era, making guides that can be easily and cheaply printed out is still one of our [[Wikitravel:Goals and non-goals|explicit goals]].  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 20:17, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::: It is entirely possible to change the format for a printed guide, much like we do now for URL formatting.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 20:27, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Is that feature custom to Wikitravel, or a feature of MediaWiki?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 23 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::: The alternate formatting for printable version is a MediaWiki feature.  All it does is use a different (css) stylesheet for formatting.  I'm pretty sure MediaWiki allows more of these stylesheets to be configured as preferences too.  So in my understanding you could easily have a different style for printing than you have for online display, so we shouldn't let the printing bit constrain our thinking too much. After all, our online display currently has no URLs, so is inherently unsuited for printing. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 19:29, 23 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::There's been a week of inactivity, so is everyone content with just implementing Peter's version for the time being? There's no colour or pictures, simply a few extra lines and spaces, and it should be possible to keep the Printable version as-is. After implementation, we can re-discuss if there's any issues. I did a little search around to find the code we need to edit, but it's very complicated. It looks like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming) Ajax] and CSS were used, which is only editable by site admins/IB. The Listing Editor's code is [http://files.wikitravel.org/mw/skins/common/ListingEditor.js here]. The formatting of the listing is [http://files.wikitravel.org/mw/skins/common/listing.css here]. Original discussion [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Popup_editing_for_listings_tags here]. While we're at it, we should add the 'email' option to the editor, which has been long missing. I guess we should file a tech-request then? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 23:21, 29 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::::::Given the complexity of the change and the expansiveness of its effect, I'd prefer to see more discussion before we go making major changes.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 30 May 2012 (EDT)
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I would also like to see some more discussion on this before making a change. Listings have a variety of completeness and length of information, so depending on what is there, the above proposal could easily produce a very lopsided-looking listing like this:
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*'''International Butt Museum''', 800 F St NW, ☎ +1 202 393-7798, butt@buttmuseum.org, [http://buttmuseum.org/index.php 1].
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:''9AM-5PM.''
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:Super awesome museum about butts. Great for people who have butts or would like to find out more about butts.
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:'''Price''': Free.
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[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 15:16, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:Is there a code that we could use that would only implement the multiple-line layout when a certain character/word count is reached? Sounds complicated to implement, though. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 05:42, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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::That would result in an ugly (I think) situation with listings appearing in a random combination of the two formats. I think we would have to either go whole-hog, as ja: has done, or just leave it alone.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 12:53, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
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==www.airport-china.com==
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A lot of links to this site have been posted in articles about various Chinese cities. I doubt this is an official airport site, but I'm not completely certain. If it's not, all such links should be deleted. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 22:02, 25 May 2012 (EDT)
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:At the bottom of the page of http://www.airport-china.com are various advertising links to hotel booking sites and tour guides, there is also a statement of "Power by Lutu ltd.", whose own website states that:
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:''Lutu Inc. is the one of the domestic company in China, which fully committed in the business of China Hotel Online Booking Service.''
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:These links coupled with the .com rather than .cn top level domain suggest a commercial, rather than government, site.
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:The Civil Aviation Authority of China has a website at http://www.caac.gov.cn/.[[User:Travelpleb|Travelpleb]] 10:57, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Deletion of user and talk pages ==
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Every time I'm monitoring the Recent Changes, I notice new users creating accounts then pasting some huge advertising spiel on their user/user talk pages. I understand advertising is completely disallowed, but are these pages meant to be outright deleted? If so, it may help if we had a template for 'Speedy deletions'. All the pages with the template would be put into a category where admins would just delete them without discussion, as they are blatant breaches of guidelines. [[Template:Vfd]] seems to only cover deletions that require discussion and consensus. I'll go ahead and create the template in the few days, if there are no objections, but wanted to also notify admins of the idea.
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On an unrelated sidenote, I think the pub is definitely in need of a sweep of items that are at least 3 months old. Any objections to that? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup>
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:I've created [[Template:Delete]] and [[:Category:Speedy deletion candidates]]. Please add it to your watchlist/userspace, admins, so you can keep an eye on it. :) <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 08:11, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:: I don't think a separate template is needed as the VFD tag should be sufficient, and if a speedy deletion is warranted the nomination can state as much.  However, for spambot-created pages no nomination is needed unless the page is overlooked - per [[Wikitravel:Deletion policy#Speedy deletion]] obvious candidates don't require a nomination as it adds extra overhead for nominating and archiving discussion (''"New pages that are plainly spam and that qualify for speedy deletion will be deleted as soon as they are noticed by an administrator, and therefore do not need to be listed on the votes for deletion page. If such a page remains for more than 24 hours, add it to the nominations page as a way to ensure that it isn't overlooked."''). -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:15, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:Yes, such user pages should be deleted, and I delete them whenever I see them. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 18:20, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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The pub definitely needs more brooms! Please don't simply sweep everything into an archive, though. Discussions should be swept to the most relevant talk page, per the little sweeping guide at the top of this page.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 12:55, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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::I didn't think it was necessary to list advertisement articles on the VfD page because, as Ryan said, it would involve extra nomination processes and archiving when discussion shouldn't be required. I considered letting an admin know on their talk page, but quite a few new pages popped up. Also, I'll sweep some old dust out of the pub later when I get a chance :) <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 03:45, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Introducing the Wikitravel API ==
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Hey there. Just wanted to mention that I've gone and created an [http://wiki-sherpa.appspot.com/api API for Wikitravel], for people who want to use Wikitravel data in other projects. It renders pages as hierarchical JSON objects, with wikimarkup rendered into simple HTML, and includes lists of subpages, geocoding of listings with addresses, etc. There's also a search API and the ability to search for pages and listings near a particular latitude and longitude. Please note, however, that it's very much a beta release; any feedback, suggestions, or bug reports would be most welcome! [[User:Rezendi|Rezendi]] 12:48, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Mediawiki upgrade scheduled for 06-June-2012 ==
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Site will be READ-ONLY for up to 2 days while the upgrade is occurring.
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If there are edits you'd like to make, please do so asap.
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When the new site comes online, it will be on new hardware as well. Bug reporting is available here:
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http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS
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If for any reason you need to contact me, I can be reached on my Talk page or my email address paul.obrien at internetbrands.com. Thanks!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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:Delayed until 06-June-2012--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:11, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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::Upgrade complete. Please report issues at http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 7 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Eratic readings since crash at 5. Juni 2012 in German Wikitravel ==
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Seit dem 7. Juni 2012 werden auf der Deutschen Seite von Wikitravel Informationen zu Sehenswürdigkeiten, Gastronomie und Unterkünften nur noch zum Teil angezeigt. Auch die Darstellung am Beginn eines Artikels hat sich zum Nachteil verändert. Die Hauptseite hat einen aktuellen Stand vom 22. Juni 2011, also fast ein Jahr alt. Auch die Artikelinformationen sind veraltet. Interessierte neue Autoren springen sehr schnell ab und gehen zu [http://www.wikivoyage.org/de/Hauptseite Wikivoyage] über. Dort werden sie herzlichst begrüßt und aufgenommen. Bei Wikitravel werden sie von einen nicht mehr aktiven Administrator gefrustet, der ihre Beiträge ohne Begründung löscht, anstatt ihnen Hilfe anzubieten.
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Man bekommt den Eindruck Wikitravel ist gestorben und wird nicht mehr gepflegt. Es ist seit Januar 2012 kein aktiver Administrator mehr tätig. Die Wahl für neue Administratoren ist mangels Interesse gescheitert. Wie soll es weitergehen?
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Please answer at the German Travellers' pub-Site. -- Knut [[Special:Contributions/84.58.160.100|84.58.160.100]] 04:32, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Upgrade to 1.17 complete ==
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Hi all,
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As you can see, we have completed the initial stage of the upgrade of the MediWiki software to v1.17, the most current version available when the upgrade began in November. 
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This has been an enormously complex endeavor, due to the huge size of the Wikitravel database and high level of visitor activity, as well as Wikitravel’s highly customized MediWiki version, consisting of a great many plugins.
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The next phase is now in progress: bug reports and fixes. Inevitably in an upgrade of this size and complexity there will be bugs. They’ll be addressed as they are reported; the process started this morning.
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Once we are convinced the new site is stable and fully functional, we’ll be able to tackle feature requests and bugs that were reported previously but that we could not address before the completion of the upgrade, and new feature requests that are just now available with this version of the software, such as InstantCommons. And now that the upgrade past 1.15 has been completed, future upgrades to 1.19 and beyond can and will be done in a far more efficient and timely manner.
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Wikitravel is now running on a completely new hardware platform. When the cacheing process is complete, we expect significant increases in performance and stability compared to the previous version of the site. We also have a larger and more experienced technical team to address the needs of the site.
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What this amounts to is a Wikitravel that is dramatically improved from a technical standpoint than it has been for the last few years. Coupled with the renewed community engagement between members and Wikitravel’s steward, Internet Brands, we have a recipe for longterm success with the technical aspects of the site, the ability of administrators to patrol edits, bug reporting and resolution, ease of contribution by writers, and above all usability for travelers around the globe.
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Wikitravel would not be possible without the dedicated community of administrators and writers whose content and curation have made it the preeminent travel destination anywhere. We are very happy to have completed this hardware and software upgrade, and look forward to continuing to evolve the site, in partnership with this community, in the years to come.
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We appreciate your patience and support during these last few months, as we have renewed our efforts to improve the site and energize the Wikitravel community. And we thank you for all you have done, both before and during Internet Brands’ stewardship. With nearly 2 million edits to almost 80,000 pages; over 70,000 registered users; and 7 million monthly visitors, there has never been a travel resource like Wiktravel. It is massive. It is unique. And it’s getting better by the day.
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--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 21:36, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
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:I sincerely hope at least the bugs that affect security will be fixed within a few hours. If you don't have a safe new version of the software, isn't it better to prevent editing until you do? Yes, performance is a huge issue, but the inability to block spammers is untenable. If I can suggest something for the next upgrade: You need software that recognizes obvious spam, because depending on volunteers to manually delete spam and block spammers is not likely to withstand the efforts of more and more spambots. Thanks, and sorry if I sound peeved, but spammers have been operated unblocked for several days now. All the best, [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 05:29, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Hi Ikan, I am told the first round of bug fixes will be deployed in the next 24 hours. We've been working on site stability over the days since the update, and I am working hard to ensure that spam remediation -- including blocking users -- is prioritized.  We know the manual removal of new spam accounts is arduous in the wake of this upgrade, and it is much, much appreciated by everyone. If I hear anything sooner, I will update here. Thank you,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 13:09, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Does anyone else have an opinion on locking edits until the user blocking feature can be restored?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 15:06, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::: I think we've been able to keep up with the spambots thus far, but it should definitely be a priority to get user blocking working again before the end of the day - at present we would have limited ability to deal with high-volume vandals, for example, and it's inevitable that they'll show before long. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 15:48, 11 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: Any update on bug fixes?  It's been five days since the upgrade went live, so any info on when (for example) user blocking will again be working would be very useful. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 12:10, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::When the far more serious issues such as those above have been dealt with it would be good to see a longer edit summary window return, that new short one is quite frustrating. cheers -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 13:14, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::I think that is user-selectable, Felix?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 15:26, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::::*Hi iBobi, I cannot find any setting in the user prefs, is it somewhere else? -- cheers [[User:Felix505|felix]] 22:38, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::First set of bug fixes are coming tomorrow a.m. (June 14), and will include blocking. Thanks for your patience and greater efforts at patrolling edits necessitated by this week-long tool outage!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 15:26, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::Lots of fake Ikan Kekek usernames just created: [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Log/newusers]. Time to prevent all edits by new users, or just shut down Wikitravel, period, right now. We won't like the results of allowing unblockable spammers and vandals to continue to run rampant, and we can wait till tomorrow (or whenever your bug fixes are actually operational) to start editing again. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 20:50, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::::*If this sort of thing is going to continue unabated then lock down editing access completely until proper administrative functionality is restored. The world will not stop turning if editing functions are missing for a while, it might irritate or alienate a few new or casual editors who might run up against an editing block, but that is better than having the whole thing turned into a time consuming spam riddled and vandalised mess.--[[User:Felix505|felix]] 22:38, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
+
en: has been unbelievably slow the last couple of days, far more than other language versions.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 11:02, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:<strike>I agree that IB should lock editing on :en, except perhaps for admins, until blocking functionality is restored.  That this hasn't been fixed yet is troubling, and it cannot wait.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 11:15, 14 June 2012 (EDT)</strike>  Looks like blocking functionality is back, although I haven't tested other language versions. Loading the block page is slow as a Ghanaian cook, though.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 11:44, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::Over on pt:, I'm starting to think that the spam blacklist isn't doing its job-- I put some domains in the list the other day, and I see today that they are still being allowed to be posted. Has anyone checked this here on en:? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 11:22, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
+
:::Blocking has started working on pt: too. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 12:30, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::It works on ru:, but many other things still do not-((( [[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] 15:33, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
===Patrolling problems===
+
I still am not able to mark many articles as patrolled. This is a problem that seems to randomly apply to some articles and not others, but it's been consistently a problem with perhaps 1/2 of unpatrolled articles at any given time since the update. What happens is that the articles show up in the "Recent changes" list as needing patrolling, but when I open them, there is no button to patrol them. That's not because anyone else has patrolled them: When I refresh the list, they still show up as unpatrolled. And if I edit them, the resulting version also shows up as unpatrolled in the "Recent changes" list but generally still does not have a patrol button when I open it. I am using Firefox 13.0.1 in a Windows XP environment, if that matters. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 18:25, 24 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Same thing here. I believe the "Mark as patrolled" button doesn't appear when there is more than one edit to the article. Opera 12 on XP. [[User:Jjtk|Jjtk]] 04:21, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::At least for administrators (but I thought for all registered users?), it should, and used to before the upgrade. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 04:40, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::It did, it broke after the upgrade. [[User:Jjtk|Jjtk]] 04:53, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::I haven't had any problem patrolling edits.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 11:42, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::: Using "enhanced recent changes" from the preferences (which consolidates edits to the same article) I'm also unable to mark multiple edits as patrolled, although they can be patrolled singly. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 11:49, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::::I've been using those enhanced changes. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 17:51, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
This is [[:wts:Tech:Grouped edits not patrollable|now fixed]], so we can get back to the beat.  I have noticed that, on occasion, the marked as patrolled link is hiding at the bottom right of the page (as with new pages).  I don't know why, but it shouldn't be a big deal, if people know about it.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:55, 6 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Breadcrumb Navigation not working on fr: ==
+
Hi, thanks for the upgrade. However the breadcrumb navigation on fr: seems broken. It works on en: and nl: and I don't see any modification in [[Template:IsPartOf]]. Any idea? joelf
+
: It seems fixed now. Thanks IB people! Joelf
+
 
+
== OpenID not working==
+
Also, login on en: using OpenID from fr: and URL ''fr:user:joelf'' doesn't seem to work either. Thanks for your help. joelf
+
 
+
:Take a look at [[:wts:Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS]].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 14:44, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== cannot reach Shared ==
+
 
+
Shared seems to be completely down or something. I cannot reach it at all... [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 10:23, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:And now I get this message when I try to reach an image page on Shared:
+
::''A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:''
+
::''(SQL query hidden)''
+
::''from within function "LocalFile::upgradeRow". Database returned error "1205: Lock wait timeout exceeded; try restarting transaction (wikitraveldb1-new)".''
+
:[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 10:40, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::No problems here.  Maybe it's fixed?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:16, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::Now I can get to the Shared main page, after a considerable wait, but I still can't reach the page I want to change: [[http://wikitravel.org/en/File:Cambodia_Rail_Northern.png]]. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 13:50, 18 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Amtrak logo for routeboxes - fair use? ==
+
 
+
I would like to integrate American rail travel into our routebox navigation, but first I need to come up with some 100x25 route icons to use. Obviously I could come up with some generic train symbol to use, but ideal would be to use Amtrak's wave symbol on the left with the route name on the right. The Amtrak logo is trademarked, and I do not know if this would constitute fair use, or if not, whether it would be desirable enough to attempt to get permission to create such derivative icons. Does anyone have an informed opinion on this? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 10:29, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:I definitely think it would be permitted under Fair Use, per [[:wikipedia:File:Amtrak_Logo.svg|usage at Wikipedia]]. The problem is, though, that we [[:wts:How_to_upload_files#Specify_licensing.21|don't allow]] copyrighted images under Fair Use ;) I agree, though, that it would be a shame not to use it—maybe we could come up with some other justification?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 10:37, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Hmmm.. Do you have any ideas on that? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 11:20, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::None at present ;) In the meantime, how does this look? [[File:AMTRAK Vermonter icon.png|right]]
+
 
+
:::--[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 11:30, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::::Looks good enough for now. Can you toss me an .svg file so I can change the text for other lines? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 12:00, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::[[:wts:File:Amtrak icons.svg|Voila]]  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 12:27, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:We would need to modify policy in order to make use of the copyrighted logo.  One option might be to use Amtrak's old logo ([[:wikipedia:File:AmtrakLogo.png]]), which I would argue is uncopyrightable.  Other than that, just stick with the wordmark in appropriate colors, as Peter did.  On another note, how do we work train routes with routeboxes?  Do we link all destinations, or only those at which the train actually stops?  (Tangentially, I would suggest creating a combined icon for routes with a lot of overlap like Empire Service/Maple Leaf.)  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:56, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
OK, thanks. I took what you did and made a mock-up icon for each train line they have. I just updated the same .svg you uploaded. Please have a look and tell me what you think! [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 22:49, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
:LtPowers, that's a good idea about making combined icons for routes with overlap-- can you suggest exactly which ones might need that?
+
:We should only link the destinations at which it stops-- it does no good for a traveller to know that some train passes through without stopping where they are. We have already implemented the main train lines pretty well for our Japan articles. You might want to have a look. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 22:55, 19 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::It wouldn't do me much good to look at Japan because I'm not familiar with the geography of the area.  =)  I also don't know exactly which routes overlap; I know that Empire Service and Maple Leaf are the same except for Maple Leaf going to Toronto, but beyond that I'm clueless.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:09, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
+
:::By the way, I re-exported your Northeast Express icon from the SVG to fix some font sizing issues, but I'm having trouble forcing the thumbnails to regenerate.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:24, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::::In the northeast corridor, it would probably be useful to have combined icons for Vermonter/Acela/Northeast Regional. The Vermonter and Northeast Regional share all the same stops (I believe) from D.C. through NYC before splitting. The Acela follows the same route as the Northeast Regional (and hence the Vermonter through NYC), but makes fewer stops.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:27, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
I don't understand why we would see using the Amtrak logo as ideal.  Surely that sends us down a slope of wanting to use each railway system logo around the world.  There are literally hundreds of these, and some are going to want to enforce their trademarks.  Stick to generic, I say.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 00:52, 22 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Problems with the search/go function ==
+
 
+
There seems to be something wrong with the search function. No matter what I type in there the search result is always the same:
+
 
+
"No such special page
+
You have requested an invalid special page.
+
A list of valid special pages can be found at Special pages.
+
Return to Main Page."
+
 
+
Has it something to do with the software update?
+
+
[[User:Ypsilon|Ypsilon]] 05:18, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
:Ypsilon, you beat me on time ;-) I have the same problem and can't search for articles. [[User:Jc8136|Jc8136]] 05:27, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::I just had that problem while looking for UNESCO World Heritage Sites. Of course, when I clicked the list of Special pages, it wasn't there, yet I found it by going to an off-site web search. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 05:39, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::I emailed [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] and started a bug report at [[Shared:Tech:Search/Go not working on en:]]. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 10:24, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::Go was working fine (that is, if you typed an article name exactly) until recently; I suspect they broke it when they were trying to fix Search.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 10:25, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::This is too important a problem to let readers sit in the dark about, so I have updated the SiteNotice to direct people to... Google.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 12:39, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::::Nice move. I can't believe they won't even respond for something so important. Oh, wait.. yes, I can. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 12:48, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::::I've reported this to our tech team. Please keep in mind that we are on the US West Coast and will generally be able to respond to issues according to that time zone difference; it's just morning here. Thank you,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 13:22, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::::: Now it's working again. Thanks! [[User:Ypsilon|Ypsilon]] 07:18, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
Let's be clear. ''Go'' is working, but ''Search'' is still not working properly. Currently it does perform a search, but it spews forth every resulting page in its entirety in raw text form. Try searching for "New York" and see what I mean. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 10:12, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:What's the desired result for a search?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 13:43, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::It should return a list of results with only a 2-3 line excerpt of the article content (not including wiki markup) from the beginning of each result's article.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 13:52, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::My understanding is that this is the way MW 1.17 handles search results; it is fundamentally different from the old 1.11 version.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 15:44, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::OK, so we have altered the way search displays so that it is a small 2-3 line digest of each result; the raw code as part of the results is a different matter, and we're looking into it.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:12, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::FYI once we change this for all users, you can still go to your settings and go to the default setting if you want to see the full article in your search results.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:32, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::Can anyone verify that wiki markup ("raw text") was not displaying in the search results of the old version before the upgrade? Apparently the appearance of this markup is a bug with the MW software that they are aware of http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:SphinxSearch/Archive/2012#Search_Results_without_Wikicode.2FWiki_markup --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:34, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::I may be mistaken about the part about not showing raw text. Another thing though, I do think that the search used to default to content pages only, not everything all mixed with talk pages, user pages, etc. Please compare with the search on pt:, where everything seems to be working as it did before. I cannot really imagine a situation in which a user would find it useful for the entire article to appear on the results page in one giant block like that. It's ugly and often requires one to scroll quite a bit between result listings.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 18:00, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== POTALA INN, LITANG Sichuan China, DON'T GO! ==
+
 
+
<removed by LtPowers>
+
 
+
: Please add your information to the [[Litang]] travel article (click on the link, as the search function seems to be broken) because future travelers to the town will look for it there, not here. You should also boil it down to a few sentences. [[User:Ypsilon|Ypsilon]] 08:10, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::No, that is improper advice.  [[Wikitravel:Avoid negative reviews]].  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 10:23, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::: Yes, but I looked at the entry for the guesthouse out of curiosity and they weren't the first ones to complain about the service and the cleanliness. Googling the place gives even more negative reviews...  And I guess there aren't very many places to choose from in the town, and according to the description it's centrally located too. So IMO this is one of the cases where travelers should be [[tcf|warned]]. [[User:Ypsilon|Ypsilon]] 08:09, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::::I removed the positive listing from the article. I would think that if they are using the internet to find accommodation, and they come here and aren't satisfied with any of the other 6 options we do list, then they would be fairly likely to look elsewhere online and encounter said negative reviews. You won't find commercial printed wasting space with such negative reviews either.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 11:55, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==InstantCommons now enabled==
+
 
+
Here's a bit of a bright spot in our messy upgrade: InstantCommons is enabled! This means you can add images from Commons to Wikitravel articles without having to re-upload them here. All you need do is add a thumbnail as usual (e.g., <nowiki>[[File:Wreaths at Arlington National Cemetery.jpg|thumb|270px|Wreaths at Arlington National Cemetery]]</nowiki>). It will then show up properly in the article, and will have a shadow page of sorts here (e.g., [[:File:Wreaths at Arlington National Cemetery.jpg]]), analogous to how our software handles images from Shared.
+
 
+
To see this in action, check out [[Arlington (Virginia)]], to which I just added 10 Commons images, without the huge amount of work that used to entail!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 23:05, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
:Awesome, super useful. Now, what is it that we don't have that allows one to directly display an .svg file on WP? If we had that functionality too, we could more easily import route icons without having to open them in Inkscape, save a .png, and upload it to Shared. Is that something we can get enabled here? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 23:27, 26 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Ooh, good point about route icons. (It will still be important to export maps to PNG, for the purpose of allowing translation layers within SVGs.)  Yes, we have the capability, provided we can get IB to add two lines to the config file... The '''instructions are here''' [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Image_Administration#SVG], and I assume the renderer to use would be '''rsvg''', as that is what the WMF projects all use.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 00:35, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::Let me see what I can do.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 13:46, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::Should be done guys -- can you test?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 13:31, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
::::I'm not seeing any difference. When an .svg is put in an image tag, it simply shows the filename as a link, e.g. [[Image:Eden Center map.svg|100px]]. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 14:20, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
:Well color me surprised!  I assume our image use policies will not change as a result?  It might make it more difficult to enforce, though.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 09:01, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::I suppose the main policies that will see changes are just about which files should be uploaded to Shared, and which to Commons. I think it is probably worth keeping our maps hierarchy separate. There also may be cases in which we want to use files locally that Commons doesn't consider free enough for global use (pictures of statues, for example).  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 11:12, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
I just tried to add the coat of arms of [[Zeeland]] to the province article, but unfortunately, they forgot to turn on svg support. I hope they fix that soon! :-) --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 01:28, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Are we using <nowiki>__TOC__ <div> </div> __TOC__ <div> </div></nowiki> ==
+
 
+
I have seen this mark-up in a couple of articles today, are we using this image floating mark up here? -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 01:34, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: It's a bug with the listing editor, introduced some time today.  See [[:shared:Tech:Listing editor adds TOC tag]]. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 02:54, 27 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Edited 1.17 upgrade bug reports to reflect fixes ==
+
 
+
I have edited the http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS to reflect what's been fixed & what's pending, as well as a number of clarifications that are needed for tech.
+
 
+
You'll also notice a parenthetical number next to many of them e.g. "(175)" -- this refers to the internal technical problem report assigned to each and will help us track them.
+
 
+
If you see "Fixed" next to an issue you reported, please test it; if it's resolved, remove your bug from the list. If it is unresolved, please explain.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 15:22, 28 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:We have addressed and fixed all bugs reported since the 1.17 upgrade. Please review any you have reported and if they are still occurring, report them on the upgrade page (and unmark them as "resolved" or "fixed") and we'll readress them.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:44, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Shared down? ==
+
 
+
I currently can't seem to reach much of anything on Shared except the main page. Recent changes, the pub, random images, etc. all either time out or return a SQL error. What is going on there? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 15:43, 29 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: Something is wrong.  I got the database error ([[:shared:Tech:Database lock timeout]]) on the recent changes page a few minutes ago, but it seems to be working now.  The spider I run that attempts to keep a backup of images has been getting error responses on nearly every request (after ten minutes of waiting) since late last night. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 16:06, 29 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::I have been editing Shared all day with no issues. There was a minor access blip on Shared and the regular site for a few minutes early this morning, but it's been fine since.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:08, 29 June 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== semi-problem logging in ==
+
 
+
I seem to be able to log in, and when editing my changes are saved under my name, but while navigating it keeps saying "Log in / create account" in the upper right corner, instead of "Justme - My talk - My preferences" etc. As soon as I start editing I do see all those account-related options. Does anyone know why that is? [[User:Justme|Justme]] 12:09, 1 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Yup, chronic problems with caching. This particular problem has been around for, yikes, something like 5-6 years, but is rearing its ugly head a little extra post upgrade. IB claims to be looking into it, as you'll see [[:wts:Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#Most_Urgent_bugs|here]].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:38, 1 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Oh, I see. Hadn't encountered this specific bug yet. Thanks for the quick reply. [[User:Justme|Justme]] 14:12, 1 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Get Out is on the way out ==
+
 
+
Hi folks... if you haven't seen it, we've got a poll on options to change the name of our "Get out" sections to something less confusing.  This will be a widespread change, so we want as much input as possible on it.
+
 
+
The discussion is at [[Wikitravel talk:Article templates#Get out, again]].  After you read the discussion, check out the poll at [[Wikitravel talk:Article templates#Approval vote]].  For each of the options listed in the table, if you would be willing to accept that option, sign just your name with three tildes (<nowiki>~~~</nowiki>) in the second column, and increment the vote total in the rightmost column.  If you are not willing to accept an option, simply don't sign in that row.
+
 
+
As of right now, "Go next" is acceptable to seven of the nine people who've voted, followed by "Move on" and "Onward" at five each.
+
 
+
-- [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 15:07, 1 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
As a somewhat minor contributor, have no objection to changing the section title to something better.  Would suggest the new title consider that the section may be used by folks also looking for nearby sites to visit on day-trips while using the main locale as a base.  [[User:Hennejohn|Hennejohn]] 18:01, 5 August 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Wikitravel still glacially slow? ==
+
 
+
Does anyone else feel that the site is basically just as slow as before the MediaWiki upgrade? This is the one thing that I most hoped the upgrade would fix, but it seems to me that things load just as slowly as before, especially here on en:, where I get to wait 15 seconds or more for even important pages like Recent Changes. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 12:16, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
: It took just over a minute to load the diff of your edit from the recent changes page for me.  While the slowness could be due to any number of reasons, there was some suspect editing activity earlier today (see [[User talk:Pranavk]]) and there has been a known Linux issue affecting many, many servers since 30-June - see http://lwn.net/Articles/504657/ (that issue affected my home server and slowed it down massively).  No clue whether either of those issues have any relevance to the current problems on Wikitravel, but something has definitely made things significantly slower lately. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 18:39, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
::WT is running on a brand new set of servers, one of which was replaced shortly after the upgrade was complete. Today the replacement machine was down for a short period of time but all is well now. What sorts of read/edot speeds are you experiencing yourself?
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+
::Also FYI on Thursday 7/5/2012 we are switching to a new cacheing service that ought to result in improved overall performance (read & edit) and several bug fixes.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:14, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
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:::WT remains slow espcially when loading pages or initally starting to access WT. It's better compared to yesterday but still pretty slow compared to history.[[User:Jc8136|Jc8136]] 09:10, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
:::: Things have been faster for me by a factor of about ten since late yesterday afternoon.  Prior to that I was seeing page load times of up to a minute and occasional timeouts. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 11:35, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Wikitravel is operating just as quickly, if not moreso, than Wikipedia for me.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 10:29, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
+
::Agreed. Seems to have returned to normal here too. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 14:12, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
== A project for anyone who wants to help ==
+
 
+
I've been playing with [[Special:LinkSearch]], which I assume to be a new feature since the upgrade, since I've never noticed it before. At any rate, it makes it pretty easy to spot hundreds of links which are not permitted in the main namespace by our [[Wikitravel:External links|external links policy]]. After eliminating a few dozen of them, I decided to appeal for help from anyone looking for something to do. Here are a few of the searches I tried:
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.facebook.com&namespace=0 Facebook] (social networking sites)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.tripadvisor.com&namespace=0 Tripadvisor] (rival travel guides)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.google.com&namespace=0 Google] (maps and search results)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.blogspot.com&namespace=0 Blogspot] (blogs)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.wikipedia.org&namespace=0 Wikipedia] (non-page-topic links)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.yahoo.com&namespace=0 Yahoo] (maps and search results)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.myspace.com&namespace=0 MySpace] (social networking sites)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.youtube.com&namespace=0 YouTube] (video sites)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.vimeo.com&namespace=0 Vimeo] (video sites)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.cnn.com&namespace=0 CNN] (news articles)
+
* [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.wordpress.com&namespace=0 Wordpress] (blogs)
+
Anyone bored? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 23:19, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
+
: tex, not today but i have a conference upcoming, where i'm going to be definitely need to look busy ;-) [[User:Jc8136|Jc8136]] 03:15, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
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::Tex, it ain't easy to find the links. I tried [[Yerevan]] and i see Troll Pub but it has not ext.link. The search for Facebook results nothing. [[User:Jc8136|Jc8136]] 03:21, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
:::Nifty tool!  Several of the above searches might turn up legitimate links, though.  Facebook, MySpace, and even Wordpress are more commonly used as websites for obscure little guesthouses than you might think.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 03:31, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::Agreed. I think we should alter slightly the [[Xl#What_not_to_link_to|policy]] to include the possibility of a blog or fb page being allowed when they are the only official web presence of a business.  [[User:Jjtk|Jjtk]] 03:50, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== What if the future looked like this? ==
+
Three separate discussions about [[Wikitravel_talk:External_links#Facebook|allowing Facebook links]],
+
[[Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web/email_format|web/email format]], and [[Wikitravel:Travellers'_pub#Templated_See_and_Do_listings|redesigning our templated listings format]] have got me thinking how we can update or modernize the way we present our information, and I've come up with a tentative proposal. It's really less a proposal and more just me throwing some ideas around, so I'm open to debate on any of the multiple points this will introduce, but I think the general idea is worth considering. Before I lay out the proposed changes though, I'd like to make some points and detail some reasoning behind the proposal.
+
* '''Social networking as contact information''' - Since WT started, social networking has grown drastically in importance as a means of communication, in some cases being now more important than phone numbers or emails, and surely in all cases more relevant than <strike>telegram</strike> fax.
+
** '''Facebook''' - As the [[Wikitravel_talk:External_links#Facebook|Facebook]] discussion points out, many establishments have only Facebook as their web presence, and consensus seems to be leaning towards allowing them in such cases. Even for those who have also a normal website, Facebook may provide a more convenient way of contact for travellers, since a huge portion of our users also have Facebook accounts.
+
** '''Twitter''' - Hasn't been discussed, but since Wikitravel has started, Twitter has taken over the web, and many many establishments have a twitter account, many users are bound to have accounts, and Twitter makes a more convenient avenue of communication for some than phone calls, full emails, etc. Twitter is especially popular with smaller accommodation owners, local restaurants, bars, music venues, and recreational activity providers, and even many mainstream attractions such as museums and festivals have an account.
+
** '''Skype''' - Many smaller restaurants and accommodations (e.g. hostels) have Skype accounts which would provide travellers with a free international phone call or text consultation. I know that I, for one, would be far more likely to call via Skype to book a room at a foreign destination than I would to call international long-distance via landline.
+
* '''Grouping all contact information''' - Within a listing, contact information should all be grouped together. As an aside, I will throw in the bold assumption that fax info can be eliminated as a now-outdated mode of communication unlikely to be used by travellers. For the purposes of this proposal, then, contact information will be taken to mean:
+
** '''Address''', including directions, if any
+
** '''Phone number'''
+
** '''Official website'''
+
** '''Email'''
+
** '''Facebook business page'''
+
** '''Twitter'''
+
** '''Skype'''
+
Accepting the above definitions as reasonable and assuming we can set up the templates to do what we want, the tentative proposition is simply this:
+
* We separate all the contact information, either into a separate column on the right or on a fresh line under the rest, leaving the lead to go directly from the name into the description, followed by hours and price.
+
* In the contact info part, the address and phone number are written out. Everything else gets just a small linked icon unless you print the page.
+
Template fiddling, spacing, which icon to use, how images are incorporated into such sections, etc. can all be worked out later, but I made mock-ups of a couple of layout ideas. I tried to include examples with an assortment of information quantities to approximate how it would look with the completeness of an average article.
+
Anyway, I'd like to call for your general comments and opinions, so... '''what if the future looked like this'''? :
+
* '''[[User:Texugo/Mock layout|Mock layout 1]]'''
+
* '''[[User:Texugo/Mock layout 2|Mock layout 2]]'''
+
* '''[[User:Texugo/Mock layout 3|Mock layout 3]]'''
+
[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 17:39, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
+
:I don't know how to artificially display our standard bullet points and cannot make functioning icon links, so please use your imagination. Also, if you know how, feel free to mess around with the messily-coded mock-ups and/or make new ones, but please do so on a different page so these will be here for others to look at.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 17:54, 4 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::I think these are some good ideas. I'd support the removal of 'fax', but I notice you've also removed 'alt' phone. A lot of Asian/African countries have multiple phone numbers, due to unpredictable landline connections. Some smaller businesses also give the option of mobile or landline; whichever is cheaper, or working. Therefore, I think that should stay. Facebook, Twitter and Skype accounts are a good idea, but we'd need to be careful about linking to "official" accounts, and not someone's fanpage. I'm leaning towards something along the lines of Mock layout 1, as it separates the information into where it belongs, whereas the others shove things like trading hours, price and descriptions. Mock layout 3 could be good if the left column was widened. One option could be automatic column width, so that if the left column gets a lot of text from things like directions, it would be wide, whereas if all it had was titles, it'd be narrow. But very nice work overall. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 06:45, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
:::FWIW, I didn't intentionally leave out alt phone numbers. I just didn't think of them because they're are very rare in the vast majority of articles.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 08:42, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
::::I made a similar proposal at Wikivoyage/de at our [http://www.wikivoyage.org/de/Wikivoyage:Lounge lounge]. Of course we implemented do, see and eat tags, but we use mainly a template named [http://www.wikivoyage.org/de/Vorlage:VCard vCard]. A template is more flexible and could easily be changed without programming. We use a template master to make the data entry simple but I hope that new Mediawiki versions will have its own graphical tool. By the way I prefer the first variant. --[[User:Unger|Unger]] 01:41, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
:::::I agree with your assessment of the third mock up and have widened the left column somewhat. I also think that one would look slightly better if both the telephone number and the icons were on the same line but with the number left-aligned and the icons right-aligned (but still in the first column), instead of taking up two separate lines. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 11:39, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
::::::I cannot speak to the prevalence of fax as means of communication in certain areas; it seems like it might still be used in some places, but I can't say for sure.  Is there any harm in leaving it?  Phoneextra is also useful for TDD/TTY numbers, though those are also going by the wayside.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 12:26, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
:::::::The only harm it does is to work against economy of space. I just have a hard time imagining that more than the rarest of travellers would even consider sending a fax to make a dinner reservation or inquire about hotel vacancies these days, especially to/in a foreign country. Even in Asian countries where they are still more common, I think they are mostly used for inter-business purposes.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 13:13, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
:::::::: I work in many countries.  Fax really has died over the last 5 years, so I do not think it is a problem to drop it completely.  If absolutely necessary somewhere, it could be put in as part of the text.  I like mock up 3!  However, I am not convinced of the value of adding Twitter.  There is a risk of too many icons littering a page.[[User:Davidbstanley|Davidbstanley]] 11:27, 6 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
[de-indenting]<br>
+
For fax (along with alt, checkin/checkout, and several other tags), I think we should just nix it from the listings editor, but keep it available if someone in the know wants to add it, for the relatively rare exceptions that would see them as useful.
+
 
+
I think adding facebook/twitter information is the right way to go, as businesses put out a lot of really useful information through both.  Hopefully we could create something more generic, though, to include other microblogs and personal social networking page sites.  (Evan [http://identi.ca] hasn't yet dethroned Twitter, but I'm bullish on destroying Facebook [http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-05-10/on-diasporas-social-network-you-own-your-data].)  I can't comment on skype—haven't yet worked it into my travel bag of tricks.
+
 
+
Texugo, I ''really'' like your first mockup—awesome stuff!  It would be good to make the hours stand out even more, though, as they are arguably the most important reference information we include.  Maybe italics?  Or color?
+
 
+
Unger, does your template work with the listings editor?  Keeping the listings editor will be crucial if we ever do launch into the yesteryear age of online editing...  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:04, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:I'm poking around clker.com (PD icons), and found some that either would be great looking imported as is, or which I could edit a bit.  For urls, [http://www.clker.com/clipart-applications-internet.html] is pretty nice.  I could fix up one of these to make it look a little tweetier [http://www.clker.com/clipart-inetrnet-group-chat.html]  [http://www.clker.com/clipart-jovenez-1.html], and could ''try'' to fix one of these for social networking profiles [http://www.clker.com/clipart-social-network.html]  [http://www.clker.com/clipart-network-5.html].  Our email icon is fine, but these are a bit snappier [http://www.clker.com/clipart-mail-reply-sender.html] [http://www.clker.com/clipart-15038.html].  Adding an hours icon (basically any clock) could be another good way to highlight the ever-important hours field.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:20, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
::I'm also partial to mock-up 1, and I totally agree about italicizing the hours. I've gone ahead and done that on the mock-up, and it works well to set that info apart from the description. As to icons, I'll get back to you on that, but I was basically just shooting to find ones that have the same background shape (couldn't find one for Skype). I'm leaning toward making the icons for facebook, twitter, and skype clearly indicate what they are though and wouldn't really like to use a generic that doesn't at least indicate something similar to their own icon. I like the idea for a clock icon, and I considered using one to replace our little phone symbol. It would be nice to mock up some stylistically matching sets of all the necessary icons since they'd always be sitting next to each other in random combinations. Anyway, choosing specific icons would be its own discussion if consensus gets behind this idea.[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 16:53, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::One thing I'm noticing is that the price info can get a little lost at the end of the hours line (which can vary wildly in length).  Perhaps move it back to the end of the description, and bold it?  Or we could have the price range follow a more eye-catching dollar icon?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:49, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::I like the layouts, Mock Layout 3 makes the address easy to find in a list of places, which is good in larger cities where maybe I am looking for somewhere to eat in the North side of the city. However I am not so sure about generally adding Facebook and Twitter links. If a business uses Facebook as its main internet presence then this can just go in place of a web address. I would not expect to look at Twitter as my first contact with a business, more as a way of staying in touch with somewhere that I already use. There may be the odd exception like an airport that tweets departure information, but then I think that we should take the trouble to say what is being tweeted. Unless devices are common that can only look at Facebook / Twitter and not web pages, then I think that the traveller should be directed to whatever is the best first point of contact and can then find other links from there (which helps to avoid getting fan pages added).[[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] 18:54, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
Here's a bored half hour's worth of icon work from someone who probably isn't too good at this kind of thing...  Anyway, they are of even width & height, and conform in a very loose way to our usual color scheme!
+
 
+
[[File:Mouseworldicon.png|24px]] [[File:Atsignemailicon.png|24px]] [[File:Thisisnotatweeticon.png|24px]] [[File:Socialnetworkicon.png|24px]] [[File:Thisisnotaskypeicon.png|24px]]
+
 
+
Like 'em?  FTS?  Suggestions?  Anyone want an SVG of this?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:13, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
:I appreciate the effort, Peter, but I gotta admit the icons don't mean anything to me.  A couple I can figure out with some concentration, but icons like these need to be immediately recognizable to be useful.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 22:24, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::I'd disagree with that sentiment, if not the criticism of the icons, since you can always just hover your mouse over an icon to see what it's about.  In any rate, our current footnote looking things aren't immediately recognizable!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 23:22, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
::::Case in point! [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Pokhara&curid=5019&diff=1903243&oldid=1901873&rcid=1926127]  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 00:56, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::*'''Facebook''' I am concerned about the concept of Facebook linking. To include Facebook potentially opens a quite large can of worms in regard to patrolling. We have had plenty enough problems with @yahoo.com, @hotmail.com and @gmail.com email addresses. Especially in the 3rd world many providers use [http://www.zemskov.net/free-email-domains.html common domain] email addresses, or use them as a back up secondary email address.<br>In some regions (especially the Indian sub-continent) every time someone changes one of these addresses they need to be checked to ensure it is not a hijack attempt. This phenomena is particularly common in the Indian articles but appears elsewhere as well. It has occasionally been suggested we should eliminate these common domain email addresses from the articles. This is not practical as many quite legitimate and substantial providers use them. It would be unfair to a large body of providers and disadvantageous to travellers to eliminate them. Unless the provider is well known to the patrolling editor, or the common domain email address is published on the providers website or another authoritative source then it is often difficult and time consuming to determine legitimacy. Sometimes an extensive examination of edit histories is required to determine the bona-fides of the editor changing or adding the common domain contact.
+
::::☯To add Facebook listings to this mix seems to be asking for more trouble. Though it is of course understood that many traders do use Facebook accounts I have noted many Facebook accounts appear to be ''name holders'', similar in a way to registering a common domain name email address, or a domain name similar to that of a trader or product, and then sitting on it either to block use of it or to gain some advantage by selling it or using it to divert business to someone other than the principal business.
+
::::☯Perhaps we need to consider if FB is really even accepted as a formal communication vehicle, or is it more one of tagging and maintaining existing customer connection through often vacuous self promotion. I have also noticed that for many small operators a common domain email address and a Facebook account is their only web presence. Anecdotally it appears that Facebook does not work well for many third world tourism providers. Many small operators tell me they do not believe it provides them any tangible business opportunity and it is email, SMS, Telephone, Skype and positive Tripadvisor recommendations and referral that are far more important to their activities
+
::::☯The previous discussions concerning FB seem to have hovered over the idea of 'business' Facebook accounts being linked. For those who might use a Facebook account in replacement of a business website we must consider if they are really likely to use a revenue account with FB, it seems unlikely, therefore we are setting ourselves a near impossible task of assessing the 'commercial' relevance of individual FB accounts that may be associated with a business operator. There is also the issue of inactive FB accounts. Some people tire of the medium and neglect it, so if we link to an account such as this we are potentially adding a dead end contact.
+
::::☯Perhaps our endeavours would be better applied to ensuring the existing contact methods are accurate rather having our efforts diverted into an added burden of further account verification demands arising from FB and Twitter accounts and the questionable virtues of supporting a commercial opportunity for either IB, Facebook or Twitter arising from providing such links in the articles and then patrolling them for consistency and legitimacy.
+
::::☯I am unconvinced of the benefit to the project and not at all keen to commit my own time toward refining a potential revenue stream derived from FB clicks or the data mining and correlation models operated by FB and Twitter.
+
::::☯I am raising this here as I note the [[Wikitravel:External links]] guideline on this has been modified recently. Perhaps this requires a little more scrutiny, especially in regard to the potential outcomes in regions with a history of contact hijacking and also in regard to our own participation in developing the Facebook and Twitter commercial models by facilitating WT linking.
+
:::*'''Twitter''' seems to be reliant upon an always-on connectivity, this is irrelevant to much of the world, I think we should be wary of viewing the world through a lens narrowed by the hype of always-on connectivity. Also I wonder why we are allowing these 3rd party commercial links into the body of the article, we should not forget the core function of enterprises such as FB, it is to collect, collate, control and commercially disseminate data for commercial gain, it is not a benign vehicle of communication.
+
:::*'''Skype''' linking is a different thing, I thoroughly support that and it would be good to see a listing field added to the standard format asap. As for adding an icon for that, great idea. Skype is a service commonly used and very popular with travellers.
+
:::*'''Alt phone''' this should stay as it is essential to list more than one phone contact in some regions and PABX systems are rare in many 3rd world environments, I don't think it requires an icon though.
+
:::*'''Fax''' is difficult, some still use it for payment authorities and many banks and insurance companies will insist on faxing documents and will not accept email communications, having the number readily at hand in a WT article may assist the traveller in circumstances such as these so maybe it should remain as listing text detail, but not have an icon. --[[User:Felix505|felix]] 23:41, 6 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::I certainly agree with negative sentiments regarding Facebook. ''But'', small businesses—even those that have a real webpage—often update their personal facebook page with important information more frequently. In my endless search for details belonging in listings, I often cannot find hours information for small boutique restaurants, or current event listings for nightclubs or rock venues without looking into their Facebook page. Microblogs, such as those on Twitter, are a similar deal for finding current events.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 12:36, 7 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Shared repository message ==
+
 
+
When you visit an image page on en: for a file hosted on shared, you get a message that "This file is from a shared repository. Visit it's file description page.." etc. When did that message turn into a hot pink eyesore? Can we change it do something a little less jolting? [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 23:35, 5 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Yes, that was my handiwork at [[MediaWiki:Sharedupload-desc-there]] ;)
+
 
+
:It should be at least a little jolting, though.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 00:18, 6 July 2012 (EDT)  '''''→''' It should be better now 00:34, 6 July 2012 (EDT)''
+
 
+
::What's really interesting, though, is that Commons images are getting a different message (example: [[:File:Rosslyn Panorama 00092.jpg]]), which copies the image licensing and attribution information!  That message is [[MediaWiki:sharedupload-desc-here]].  Now how do we get that functionality for our own shared repository...?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 00:20, 6 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==It's quiet, a little ''too'' quiet==
+
 
+
Did I miss a holiday today or something? The only time I've seen so few edits in recentchanges has been on Christmas!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 23:05, 7 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: Some of the more [[Special:Contributions/Ikan_Kekek|prodigious]] [[Special:Contributions/Eco84|editors]] seem to be missing today.  And the number of contributions seem to generally have been lower since the upgrade - some folks probably wandered off temporarily due to various upgrade bugs and should return as things stabilize. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 23:28, 7 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Maybe. It's weird though—I just patrolled the entire day's edits in 15 minutes.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 23:45, 7 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::I suspect I'm not the only one who sees little point in working on WT while we wait for [[#Moving_to_Wikimedia|the hammer to drop]]... [[User:Jpatokal|jpatokal]] 22:55, 9 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::Regardless of outcomes, I still want things in good shape here. The fact that I cannot block bots or delete pages right now frustrates that desire.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 01:48, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::Am I the only one then, who repeatedly could not reach Wikitravel, today and yesterday? I got the "Wikitravel has a problem" message. Maybe others had the same. [[User:Justme|Justme]] 08:39, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::::There were scattered outages yesterday due to the cacheing change reported on Shared. Are you still having trouble editing? I made an edit with no issue.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:53, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::::I can edit with Chromium on the same PC, and Firefox on a different pc (same IP, different Firefox version), so I guess the issue is with Firefox 3.6.24?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:01, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::::::Sounds likely. I'm on FF 13.0.1, so it's just possible some new updates left your ancient version behind finally?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:06, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
Peter, tech recommends you remove ALL cookies and hard refresh; it may have cached something wonky. They're looking into potential conflicts with that FF version.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:26, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:I'm able to edit as normally as of this evening EST!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 18:42, 12 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Suggestion: Guidelines for Accommodations (price) ==
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+
During my trip to (Southeast-)Asia I experienced often the situation that the budget and mid-range section where totally mixed up. Maybe it would be good to have a rough guideline for each place to sort the accommodations according to the price. <small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:Askingcat|Askingcat]] ([[User_talk:Askingcat|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Askingcat|contribs]]) </small>
+
:Every Sleep section should have a [[Template:Sleeppricerange]] nearby.  If one is missing, maybe you can [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|add it]]!  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 09:12, 8 July 2012 (EDT)
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::Is that true? Should every sleep (and eat) section have one? Because most of our star articles don't, I think.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 10:49, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
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:::Well, every bottom-level (leaf-node) article.  At least, that's what I thought.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:03, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Coordinates ==
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+
Hi! I'm new to Wikitravel (in the meaning of adding information). I would like to make suggestion, although probably it was discussed before on this page. I think it will be very convenient to have GPS coordinates near titles of places, especially in the See section. When I go to new place, usually I print relevant Wikitravel page and having coordinates there will be very helpful. Also it could very helpful to have linked appropriate Google map to the article, but probably it is out of scope of the project.
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+
While I understand the nobody is able to add magically coordinates in the one moment, it would be nice to mention this somewhere in guidelines (if it is not yet) --[[User:DixonD|DixonD]] 10:27, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:You can find more information on the topic at [[Wikitravel:Geocoding]].  If you have ideas as to how those coordinates can best be displayed and utilized, please leave a message on the talk page!  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:05, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Also see [[Wikitravel:Geographical data and metadata]]. For adding geo data to listings, that's actually pretty easy, so long as they are properly formatted with our [[Wikitravel:Listings|listings tags]]. For a completely random example, look at [[Slough#See]] and click on the edit link at the end of the listing. In the listing editor that comes up, you can enter the coordinates into the lat and long fields.
+
 
+
::We used to have the ability to use [[special:mapstraction]] to pull up a Google Maps view of the article destination, but that doesn't seem to be functional now. In any rate, it wasn't that helpful, and probably just distracts from our mapmaking goals, which stress keeping the maps on-site, so that articles are easy to print and use on the go. In the not-yet-foreseeable future, one of our goals is to auto-generate maps of our listings on maps imported from OpenStreetMap, which shares our [[:wts:Copyleft|CC license]].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:30, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Bugs, feature requests, and the future of Wikitravel ==
+
 
+
Please view and comment on this section on Shared [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Wikitravel_Shared:Travellers%27_pub#Bugs.2C_feature_requests.2C_and_the_future_of_Wikitravel Bugs, feature requests, and the future of Wikitravel].--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 20:46, 10 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
Thank you. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 12:43, 21 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==Lost discussion==
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+
I can't for the life of me find the discussion in which we were talking about having the ability to up/down-vote and to mark-as-correct listings, with a trusted class of reviewers and editors. Does anyone know what happened to it?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:25, 11 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
: I think that was [[Wikitravel:Business listings reliability Expedition]].  The discussions are mostly on the talk page. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 16:33, 11 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Support for email notification? ==
+
 
+
Please see [[Shared:Tech:Enable_Email_Verification_and_Notification|Enable Email Verification and Notification]] and add your X to the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Roadmap|Roadmap]] if you like it.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:58, 12 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
Today, email notifications have been enabled. The feature defaults to "off" so you will not receive any until you switch it on and confirm your email in your User Profile.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:45, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:FYI for those not following Shared, this changed basically has disabled email without notice for all users who registered prior to 27 July 2012. To re-enable yours, use [[Special:ConfirmEmail]] and be sure to update your [[special:preferences|email preferences]] to enable only those notifications that you actually want.
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+
:This is a big problem, though, in that the vast majority of our past and present users are not following pub discussions, and will not know that their Wikitravel email functionality has been disabled.  Please also see [[:wts:Tech:Enable Email Verification and Notification]].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 18:54, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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+
::It looks as though this issue has been fixed, and that email is working fine once more.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 23:55, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Spam Page ==
+
I'm moving a discussion from my talk page here to see if anyone else has seen these error messages or experience the same problem. Ryan also posted this to [[Wikitravel talk:How to handle unwanted edits#Important - blocking spambots]].
+
-------------------------------------------
+
You're shown as the author of [[User:Chen47vk7]], which is a spambot page.  Any idea what's going on?  Is this another upgrade bug? -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 16:09, 14 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
:When I tried logging in earlier, I got a message that (I think) said something about being prevented from logging in to prevent account being compromised or something like that. The time of those edits is about the time I logged in (or tried to). I'm on a public wi-fi network...maybe that has something to do with that? [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 16:15, 14 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
:: You're the second "normal" account I've seen today that had a spambot page created.  It may be an upgrade bug, but if you see that message again can you copy it and add it to this thread? -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 17:01, 14 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
[[Image:Login_error.JPG|thumb|300px|Screenshot 1]]
+
Today after clicking the "log in" in the upper right, then entering my username & password and hitting enter, I got the screen at right. I think what I did on the 14th was re-enter my password at this screen, after which I got the message I mentioned about being compromised or something like that. This time I clicked the WT image in the top right to return to the homepage, where I was still "logged in" as this spambot (?). I just closed the window (my Firefox setting is to clear cookies when exiting) and came back to WT to log in...without incident. These two instances are the only two times I've ever seen this message...my browser should accept cookies. Using my home internet this time. Maybe this is a bug. (BTW:Message is in a grey box because I highlighted it to copy/paste, but then decided to capture a screenshot with the message still highlighted). [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 05:49, 16 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
[[Image:Login_error2.JPG|thumb|300px|Screenshot 2]]
+
:I got the log in error message in the second screenshot when I tried to log in today...the same one I got the first time. Happened in the same way as the last two times: clicked on "log in" from WT homepage, entered by username & password on the following page and hit enter. Again, notice that I appear to be logged in as a spambot. This time I entered my password on this page and clicked "log in", but checking my "user contributions" it doesn't look like any spam edits have been made by my account. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 22:39, 16 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:: There was a bug fixed in Mediawiki 1.17.2 that apparently would allow a script running on your machine to "steal" session information - if you're on Windows, do you run a virus scanner?  Otherwise you might want to try clearing cookies and see if the problem goes away.  Alternately, it's possible that a malicious Google ad or something similar could be stealing session info via the aforementioned bug.  For what it's worth I reported the problem to IB and requested that they upgrade to the latest bugfix release. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 22:58, 16 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
[[Image:LoginError3.JPG|thumb|300px|Screenshot 3]]
+
:::I was adding another comment when you added yours. I do run a virus scanner and like I said in the first post, my browser setting are set to delete cookies when the browser is closed (just double-checked this). Should this be moved to the pub for others to comment on? ''So after making the last comment, I went to my watchlist to patrol recent edits and got the message shown in the third screenshot while making a couple edits. After logging back in, I checked my contributions, but no spam edits made by my account. Since the upgrade, I seem to get logged out of my account anywhere from 15-45 minutes after logging in (a rough guess) and this happened 20 minutes after logging in (based on difference between timestamps on the images' metadata).'' [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 23:04, 16 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::: It probably wouldn't hurt to give this issue wider exposure in the [[Pub]] since it hasn't just been your account - I just deleted a spambot page credited to [[User:AndreCarrotflower]].  I've also raised this issue at [[Wikitravel talk:How to handle unwanted edits#Important - blocking spambots]]. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 00:15, 17 July 2012 (EDT)
+
---------------------------------------
+
So has anyone else seen this or seen these error messages? [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 01:28, 17 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Yes, I was receiving them after last Monday's caching server upgrade (at least I think that's what it was), and received them July 9th-12th. I only received them in one browser on one computer (Firefox 3, Ubuntu 10.04). On the 13th I was able to edit again as normally. I didn't report on site because it was too much of a pain to edit!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 00:43, 18 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::I've been getting these messages every time I've logged in since the 14th. Upgraded from Firefox 13 to 14.0.1 today (on Windows 7 SP1, for what it's worth), but that hasn't changed anything. Only the first time this happened were spam edits "made" by my account. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 02:12, 18 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
:::I got it today for the first time.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:53, 18 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::We are working to implement a security patch this week. Thank you all.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:10, 18 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::No hurry, [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User%3AIphones2q&action=historysubmit&diff=1902158&oldid=1902106 since you're a spambot yourself now].  (Oh, the irony!) [[User:Jpatokal|jpatokal]] 09:34, 24 July 2012 (EDT)
+
::::::Jani, just placed the irony on IBobi's talk page. It would be ironic if it wouldn't kill Wikitravel rather soon. It's really sad to see the project unfold on its own. If anyone needs arguments against IB, then we show this discussion. [[User:Jc8136|Jc8136]] 09:41, 24 July 2012 (EDT)
+
The MW 1.17.2 patch was deployed early this morning Pacific time. Please let me know as soon as possible if it has not addressed the spambot issue and the deletion problem.
+
If earnest attention to and resolution of a MW software bug is an "argument against" the host, Jc, I really don't know what to tell you. A patch this size cannot be deployed hastily, lest the functionality of the site itself be jeopardized.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:20, 24 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
:When we have big problems affecting the integrity of the site, I think Wikitravellers' patience with IB's business hours wanes. We work around the clock, around the globe to maintain some semblance of wikidignity on a site that is hard for me to even edit, still. It took around 5 minutes to load this page's history and then the diffs since my last visit just right now.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 18:00, 24 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Sorry it's been slow today, Peter; as I mentioned in earlier notes regarding the upgrade that occurred today, site speed will be slow because it's a patch to the entire site, which then requires some time for the cache to rebuild. This is a huge site, and there's no way around it. Upgrading takes a temporary toll on site speed -- it has nothing at all to do with it being IB that made the upgrade. It's a software bug with MediaWiki that we needed to resolve.
+
 
+
::Some things just take time. It wasn't business hours that caused the week delay; it's our care in ensuring that the upgrade would be done well and would not compromise the site. We go from investigating the issue, to investigating a solution, to putting the solution on a staging server, testing it there, then putting it into production on the live site here. Hopefully you understand, and thank you for your help in reporting and resolving this.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:12, 24 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
::: According to recent changes "I" have just created a new account called User:Rdidonato41... one of many probable spam accounts. And as I said on shared before, I still need to reload almost every page (half of the time not even that works, I have to go back one page and forwards again to get the page.) /insert swearing word of your choice/ [[User:Ypsilon|Ypsilon]] 02:20, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
Cache was fully cleared yesterday (as you could see from slowness); this should have propagated all changes made since the patch last week. Please report if spambot spooling issue persists.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 18:09, 31 July 2012 (EDT)
+
---------------------------------------
+
Was my account taken over? In the morning I couldn't edit and got a message that I was blocked for spamming.  [[User:Jjtk|Jjtk]] 07:54, 1 August 2012 (EDT)
+
:Same thing happened to me yesterday. I also noticed that Travellers' Pub was missing from the nav bar, and when I tried to edit a page, I got the message below...
+
You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:
+
Your IP address has been automatically blocked because it was used by another user, who was blocked by Ikan Kekek. The reason given is this:
+
Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Hdfs9f2qb".
+
The reason given for Hdfs9f2qb's block is: "Spambot"
+
• Start of block: 08:49, 2 August 2012
+
• Expiry of block: 08:49, 3 August 2012
+
• Intended blockee: 10.17.32.138
+
You may contact Ikan Kekek or one of the other administrators to discuss the block.
+
Note that you may not use the "e-mail this user" feature unless you have a valid e-mail address registered in your user preferences and you have not been blocked from using it.
+
Your current IP address is 10.17.32.138, and the block ID is #10618. Please include all above details in any queries you make.
+
:I was unable to email [[User:Ikan Kekek]] because my email address was no longer registered. When I tried to re-register, I got the following message...
+
Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.
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:Good news is that I was allowed in again today, and able to re-register my email. [[User:Jnich99|Jnich99]] 01:32, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
We have a solution we'd like to implement on the spambot spooling accounts issue; please see [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Spambots Spambots] and the comments from Ryan and myself. Weigh in if you have any information or opinion. We'd like to do this soon.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:24, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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+
:Spambots are doing more than just creating accounts from existing non-spambot accounts. They look to be making edits with others' accounts too. See [[Special:Contributions/Faust38]] and his/her user log [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Faust38], who has a good, normal edit, plus a spam edit for insurance accompanied by a user creation for a spam insurance account.
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+
:This is so awful, and isn't getting fixed. I'm starting to feel like it's time to make a final back up of data (or use the last one and manually integrate the good changes since) and to pack our bags.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 11:05, 9 August 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Editting on iOS? ==
+
 
+
I can't seem to edit pages when using my iOS device. Am I missing something? It seems to work fine when using Android... -- [[User:Tsandell|Tim]]  08:25, 17 July 2012 (EDT)
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+
:What issues are you having specifically? Have you been able to edit on iOS in the past, and only having the problem recently? It could be related to the recent MediaWiki upgrade. Personally, I can edit using my phone (HTC Windows Phone) <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 08:30, 17 July 2012 (EDT)
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::I've not tried editing on iOS before so I'm not sure if it's a new thing or not. When viewing any page on either Safari or Chrome, after clicking to see normal versions of the pages (as opposed to mobile versions) it will show up the "edit" links - but then if I click on it, I get the edit page but back in the mobile version, but the wiki code isn't in a text box which you can edit. Hope that makes sense... -- [[User:Tsandell|Tim]]  09:01, 17 July 2012 (EDT)
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::: Okay, so now it's kinda working now. I'm using Chrome on iOS and when trying to edit it still takes me back to the mobile version which is formatted differently and can't be edited. But with Chrome there's a "request desktop version" option which shows the normal desktop version of the page and allows you to edit as normal. It's still a bit of a hassle though. -- [[User:Tsandell|Tim]]  15:38, 17 July 2012 (EDT)
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:::: I have the same problem on Android as well.  If you want to edit, you can't let the site know you are on a mobile device, otherwise it keeps flicking back to it.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 21:47, 17 July 2012 (EDT)
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== User page exists but user account not registered ==
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I was going to blank and protect a User page that has been subject to numerous spam edits and deletions. When I went to edit it though, I got the following message:
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"User account "xxxxx" is not registered. Please check if you want to edit/create this page."
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Has anyone seen this message before? It seems odd that it recognizes the page as a user account but the account is not registered (and that my editing would register it). - [[User:Shaund|Shaund]] 10:42, 21 July 2012 (EDT)
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:Editing the page would not register the user account; the warning is there because it is usually not desirable to create a page in the User: namespace without an attached account.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:21, 21 July 2012 (EDT)
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== How do I move pages? ==
+
How are pages moved? I tried to move [[Sigtuna]] to [[Sigtuna and Stockholm-Arlanda Airport]], without result. Thanks in advance. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 20:14, 22 July 2012 (EDT)
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: Moving pages appears to be broken at the moment, please see [[:shared:Tech:Move feature not working on en:]].  However, in that specific case, I would not move the page, as airports [[wiaa|usually do not get their own articles]]; you could set up a redirect from ''Stockholm Airport'' or ''Stockholm-Arlanda Airport'' to [[Sigtuna]] instead.  — [[User:Dguillaime|D. Guillaime]] 20:26, 22 July 2012 (EDT)
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:: That's a thing to discuss at [[Talk:Stockholm]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 14:10, 23 July 2012 (EDT)
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::: So, is there any hope that the bug will get fixed? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 19:13, 25 July 2012 (EDT)
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::::The ability to move pages seems to have been restored as of July 31. [[User:Eco84|Eco84]] 14:51, 31 July 2012 (EDT)
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:::::That redirect would be entirely out of bounds. Sigtuna is a town and thus a perfectly normal title for a travel guide. Stockholm-Arlanda Airport is an airport which happens to be situated in the county of Sigtuna. [[User:Riggwelter|Riggwelter]] 10:14, 23 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::: Does [[Stockholm-Arlanda Airport]] justify an article on its own? [[Wikitravel:What is an article?]] is unclear; the examples provided are larger than Arlanda. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 20:41, 24 August 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Itinerary advice - Erie Canal ==
+
 
+
I'm currently writing the [[Erie Canal]] itinerary article, and I'd appreciate some input regarding whether I'm on the right track or not.  I've never written an itinerary article before and I want to make sure it's starting out okay before I get too far into it.  Please comment on the article's talk page.  Thanks!  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 20:31, 25 July 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==Nowiki tag broken?==
+
Tried to use the nowiki tag in [[Wikitravel:Currency]] without desired result. Is there an alternative? /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 08:41, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
+
:It works on wiki markup and HTML tags, but it seems it's not working on HTML entities like &amp;nbsp; and &amp;ndash;.  I don't know if this is a bug or expected behavior.  Fortunately, there's an easy workaround; the &amp;amp; entity produces an ampersand, which you can use to write out the entity without having the character display.  (See the source code for this paragraph for examples.)  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 12:06, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
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::[[:wikipedia:Help:Wiki markup#Nowiki]] indicates that this is expected behavior of the <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki> tag.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 12:13, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
+
  
==[[Arctic]] and [[Traveling in cold weather]]==
+
HI
Started two new topics. I would appreciate contributions and cross-links. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 14:53, 29 July 2012 (EDT)
+
What a fabulous project! I cannot believe I never found this before.
 +
Some of my family wants to get together more often and we are trying to organize a group trip, 5 or so days, prepaid food options, lots of activities, and I don't think we care where we go but some need to keep the costs down.
 +
Most of the family is in the north east.
 +
Any one have suggestions about places to go, cruises to try, etc.
  
== Cache rebuilding today ==
+
:Hi there! If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Vermont! It's beautiful there and relatively less costly than a lot of places in New England. [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
We have deployed a code update that will require the site's cache to rebuild today, slowing performance until the cache is again whole. Usually this takes a day, give or take, with performance steadily increasing to pre-update levels. Early in this process, it's possible you will see a 503 error. Thank you--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:35, 30 July 2012 (EDT)
+
Vermont is a great suggestion - especially during foliage. You can check out activities and tours in different locations at [http://www.placepass.com PlacePass.com] - should help you get inspired!
  
:Not only have I seen a lot of 503 errors; I also keep getting the following error message when attempting to save text I wrote in a user's talk page that previously was empty:
+
:Hello! Ignore having family trips during Spring months March and April because of Spring Breakers. [[Cabo San Lucas]] has many beach hotels with cheap all-inclusive packages and fun water attractions for the kids. [[Puerto Peñasco]] aka Rocky Point has many affordable beach houses to rent. [[Catalina Island]] is chalk full of family visitors and easily noticeable activities all along the beach. I suggest renting a house or condo near the main city of [[Avalon]]. Catalina is my top preference for you because of the darling city and the family-friendly environment. [[User:IBrobin|IBrobin]] ([[User talk:IBrobin|talk]]) 16:12, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:Internal error
+
== Re: Appearance of external links / Front-Linked listings ==
  
:Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.
+
I am a new user and trying to find an answer to what I think is a simple question: What format should external links have? This is one of the most basic things that people would do in the wiki (adding links to sites) and yet I'm seeing an incongruity between formatting and policy. As it stands in the external links help page [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:External_links] we should add labels to web pages and I'm fine with that, but then when I use the code for listings (e.g. " < sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep > " ) it automatically goes back to footnotes and I can't seem to change it.
  
:What is that junk, and why is that message being shown? The site is also slower than I've ever experienced other than times when it was impossible to edit at all. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 04:41, 1 August 2012 (EDT)
+
I would not bring this up if it was a recent issue but people have been talking about this (using / not using footnotes; replacing the number of the footnote with a nice icon [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web.2Femail_format]) since 2007 and yet the code is still doing its same old thing.
  
::Which user page are you trying to write on? I can take a look and see if it can be reproduced; but today I am seeing site speed beginning to approach page loads of 3-4 seconds, and I have not seen that particular error.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:32, 1 August 2012 (EDT)
+
As a new user, trying to add info to the site and then having to spend hours (trying to figure out what's going on with external links and why I can't get them to display in the way that I've been told to display them) seems very counter productive and demotivating. It makes me wonder how many other laymen have tried to make changes to pages and then just end up abandoning the whole thing cause guidelines don't match what's really going on and it all just takes to long to find an answer. Latest discussion I've seen about this, just makes it seem as if nothing is being changed and so what [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:External_links#Question_re:_External_link_format]
  
:::[[User talk:Danielfeihu]], for example, but I got that message repeatedly while trying to edit the Travellers' Pub, too; other user talk pages; and when trying to delete a spam user page. And the site is still almost unbearably slow. Are you using various different browsers, or only IE? For the record, I use Firefox 14.0.1[[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 04:54, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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Similarly, the whole discussion about front linked listings has been going on since before 2005 [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:External_links/Archive#Front-Linked_listings] with no clear resolution in the primary guides (help file) on formatting (from what I can see, correct me if I'm wrong). Whilst I at first preferred front links for their aesthetic and simplicity, reading other people's counterpoints make it clear why front links aren't a good idea: As stated by Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT) [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web.2Femail_format], he points out how some listings appear worse because they don't have hyperlinks or that having longer hyperlinks (thanks to the hyperlinked name being longer) would make them more likely to be clicked.
  
:::: OK, now I've logged out, deleted _all_ of my cookies, cleared my cache, logged back in, and _Still_ get this same error message when I try to edit a user talk page, such as [[User talk:Edralin]]. This is very annoying, because it's important to inform touters of why and how they're running afoul of Wikitravel rules and guidelines. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 05:29, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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If icons were to be used (a nice globe icon, easily recognizable as world wide web) this wouldn't need to be a discussion and the points raised would be resolved, using footnotes does solve the issue but people also complain about the aesthetics of it etc. [[User:Rhetorical|Rhetorical]] ([[User talk:Rhetorical|talk]]) 14:17, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
  
::::: Do you see interwiki links and the link at the top of the page to [[Wikitravel:Votes for deletion]] on [[Special:RecentChanges]]?  I was seeing that behavior yesterday until clearing all cookies, cache, etc.  One guess as to why some people are having issues is that IB has at least one bad server in their cluster, and if you have the bad luck to hit it then the site behaves poorly (note that most modern clusters will try to keep users on the same server, so if you hit it once you're stuck on it until you force your way off). -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 11:09, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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== Cannot edit my own user page ==
  
:::::: I do now, but I didn't yesterday. My last edit to this page, below, took, but I got an "internal error" message after hitting "enter" to post it. Very strange goings-on on this site, quite a lot of them, and it's been going on on and off for a long time now. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 16:10, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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Hi I am trying to edit my user page while logged in. I have just created an account so that might be the issue.
 +
Error is "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Dark Tower"
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Is there anyway this can be fixed?
  
Servers are being rechecked. If there's any slowness in one of them we'll pull it from the cluster and replace it. Note that I'm not seeing error reports from other users at this time.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:41, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 03:51, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
:Please read the following discussion in my user talk page: [http://wikitravel.org/en/User_talk:Ikan_Kekek#Block_ID_.2310618]. How is it that blocking spambots is causing so many innocent users to be blocked? This is _really bad_! [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 16:06, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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: Hi Wandering Roman, thank you for reaching out here. I've added a test message on your user page just now. Seems okay to me. Can you please try again (please blank my test message) now and let us know if you still have this error? Thank you! --[[User:Binbin|Binbin]] ([[User talk:Binbin|talk]]) 04:19, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
::RE: performance issue, we did find a couple of servers running slower than the rest, and those have been fixed. We should see a site performance boost as well as the reported missing links issue resolution.
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::Sorry to say that it is still happening. Though I think there is a problem with the back end of the site. Have a look at the Abuse Log and you will see other people are having similar problems. http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:AbuseLog
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::Thanks for your help. Its very fast.
  
::I replied to the blocking issue on your page.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:50, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 04:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
:::And I replied to you.
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:::Looking at the log more closely looks like it was miss-configured and that this has been a reoccurring problem since 2012, though in 2012 the problem was occurring under the filter named The Beaver. You may want to contact IBobi, the administrator to look at the filter list as from what I have read it can only be fixed by admin/bureaucrat groups on WikiTravel
  
:::I continue to be unable to put text onto currently empty user talk pages. I get the "internal error" and then have been able to confirm that no text was added. (At least when I post to the Travellers' Pub, despite the "internal error" message, my edits are currently showing up.) Are you working on that bug? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 17:05, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 04:52, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
::::Wikitravel's speed is finally back to normal, but I continue to be unable to add text to currently-empty user talk pages. For example, when I tried to add a welcome/thanks message to [[User talk:Nicho Pratama]], I got the same damn "internal error" message, and I have confirmed that my edit did not go up. Do you understand why this annoying bug is happening? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 16:41, 4 August 2012 (EDT)
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::::Hi, are you trying to add a certain link to your user page? The filter you are mentioning is blocking certain links, if you just add text you should be ok. Let us know what exactly you are trying to add ok? Thanks! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 05:43, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::And I got the "internal error" when posting the reply above, but at least the text I added showed up here. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 16:45, 4 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Sorry, Adzas I am not just trying to post some basic information about my self. There are no internal or external links. Thanks for the help tho.  
  
::::::This site has gone feral, I just made an edit, entered it in under the last appearing contribution from Ikan ( [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 05:29, 3 August 2012 (EDT)). Then after several attempts to get the newly edited page to load I cannot see my recent edit, then noticing the content looked different I found it way up the page, I have now moved it down. Note the time line incongruous date stamps to illustrate this anomaly in caching behaviour. It is rather frustrating having to click away for at a page an extended time to get it to load. When I loaded the edit again it did the same thing again, everything below Ikan's earlier edit, including my subsequent 2 edits had again vanished requiring a further forced page reload to bypass the caching. Very messy! -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 13:49, 5 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 06:20, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::(''the moved edit)'' Last few editing sessions I have to make multiple attempts to load an article page in standard (read) view. Generally an entirely empty page is displayed, Anyone know what this is all about? -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 13:40, 5 August 2012 (EDT)
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::::::: Yeah... since over a week it's more of a rule than an exception to get a blank page. Reloading doesn't help but going one page back and one forward to the page you wanted to open seems to do. XP  [[User:Ypsilon|Ypsilon]] 00:42, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
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Over the weekend, tech has been looking into whether this is a cacheing issue or a problem with a particular type of edit. They're still working, and I'll update as I get more information. Thank you,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:00, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
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::::::I have disabled the Dark Tower abuse filter. Thank you for the heads-up, [[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]]! [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 15:56, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:Can someone create an actual bug report (or reports) of the issues mentioned here? We'd like a central repository, rather than some remarks on the Pub, some on various Talk pages, that the technicians can refer to and respond. A great place to link the new bug page(s) is [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Top_bugs Top Bugs].--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:02, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
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== Electric vehicle charging stations on Wikitravel/Autonomous vehicles for the future? ==
  
::I added [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Spambots Spambots]. Other issues I see reported here that need bug reports added to [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Top_bugs Top Bugs] are:
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With these types of cars becoming increasingly popular and fully autonomous vehicles quickly becoming reality, should things such as charging stations be listed?  In the future, what about autonomous pickup/dropoff locations as well?  --[[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 12:48, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:::1. Internal Error/Inability to put text into empty Talk pages, reported by Ikan
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I for one hate driving with a passion especially in Los Angeles, the traffic hell of the universe. Charging stations wouldn't be useful listed on pages as they need specific address locations and individual city pages are too vague. [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
:::2. Edits appearing out of sequence (?), reported by felix
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:::3. Last few editing sessions I have to make multiple attempts to load an article page in standard (read) view. Generally an entirely empty page is displayed. Reloading doesn't help but going one page back and one forward to the page you wanted to open seems to, reported by felix and Ypsilon
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:Any others? And is anyone else seeing these behaviors, or just the one individual who's posting them?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:51, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
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:I don´t know how many of those charging stations would be available in a location, I think a mention that charging stations are available would be beneficial, but individual listings I don´t think that would be needed, it would be like posting all petrol stations in a location. Just my thought.... [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:43, 3 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:: I don't see see it on English, but almost every edit I make on shared reports "Internal error" with the message "Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information."The edits have been saved every time, but this sounds like the same issue others are reporting. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 23:21, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
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:: True, posting them all would be indeed too much.  --[[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 17:18, 6 June 2016 (EDT)
  
::: I spoke too soon - the same error just occurred on English Wikitravel while trying to save the above edit. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 23:21, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
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::: Did anyone see that news article about the guy taking up three whole charging spots? [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 12:59, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
  
::::I just got this error when trying to post a new section in the pub. I got the internal error, so went back and resubmitted, only to find the section was saved twice with a duplicate. This is particularly bothersome. ...And now as I try to make this post and correct the duplicate, I've encountered a 503 about 10 times and very slow loading times. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 05:56, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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==New Update Today!==
  
:::::Still happening for me, I never get error messages but do need to 'reload' pages, it occurs both when viewing and when editing/previewing.--[[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:11, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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Woohoo, hopefully everything goes smooth! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 16:36, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
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:'''So far, so good''' I haven't noticed any problems. Has anything been reported so far? [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:42, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::: Hmm, I spoke too soon. I clicked on <nowiki>[Save page]</nowiki> for the edit above and while it ground away trying to upload that edit I went off to another page I had got bored with previously whilst waiting for it to load, there I found this instead of the anticipated page at [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Bangalore&curid=3186&diff=1906854&oldid=1906627  [[Bangalore]] Latest revision as of 20:02, 6 August 2012]<br>
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:Luckily not too many issues with the switch! [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 18:06, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::: Error 503 Service Unavailable<br>
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::Just a bit of spam but not too bad! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::: Service Unavailable<br>
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:::I do an edit, and write an edit summary, but when I try to save it a pop-up asks me to write a another, separate edit summary. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 04:45, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::: Guru Meditation:<br>
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::::Well, sometimes it does it, but not always. When it happens, the heading of the pop-up is <nowiki>"Publish to {{SITENAME}}"</nowiki>. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 04:47, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::: XID: 1096408257<br>
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:::::'''Shared''' This should definitely be posted to the Pub on Shared. That's a serious bug. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::: Varnish cache server<br>
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::::::OK. thanks. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::: So I copied the error message and came back here to make this enthralling discovery known to others, and clicked again on the edit link for this section of the now loaded Pub page. But I was thwarted, my recent edit I had just seen with my own eyes on the displayed ''Pub'' page was not in the edit pane, the last edit viewable there was that of <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 05:56, 7 August 2012 (EDT). <br>
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==Space travel==
:::::: So I reloaded the page again then again clicked to edit, this time the copy and markup was there, so here I am to share this astounding information and there (above) is the Error 505 message. So I guess that indicates I am also now getting error messages as well as blank pages on page read, and page edits and edit previews. And all this has probably taken more time than to patrol a day of 'watched' articles.--- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:33, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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When it becomes available at what price point will you partake in space travel. Not the near earth orbit/ vomit comet stuff but actually leave the atmosphere to the moon type stuff. 10 thousand? 20 thousand?  [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
:::::::Also I might add I have seen paint dry faster than it takes a page to load here--[[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:38, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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::::::::Editing here is like trying to grab smoke with your hands, it is almost impossible and now I am also getting "''Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try again. If it still does not work, try logging out and logging back in.''". I am giving up.--[[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:25, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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Ryan, JamesA, felix, ypsilon, Ikan: since you are all reporting some version of a cacheing error -- or at least an inability to edit/getting a message when editing -- can you report the exact behavior you are engaging in when these errors occur? Also, where geographically you are? Our error logs are not showing the errors you are reporting. Nor has anyone (including me, who makes many edits per day on WT) internally seen these errors lately. So, any information you can provide so that we can troubleshoot this would be helpful. Thank you!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 17:36, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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:Honestly, I can't even handle rollercoasters, so I'm not sure how well I'd do when pulling the Gs of space flight. And I mean, there's enough stuff ''on'' the planet I need to see [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 14:02, 9 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:I am using an Indonesian ISP (PT Telkom Indonesia) 125.167.XXX.XXX. The problems are occurring on loading a read page, an editing preview and an edit. I somewhat tired of editing after the "''Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data''" message repeated a few times. I did log out and logged back in and completed that edit. Following that I continued with an other edit on a different article, the article's read page loaded after my edit but registered no change to the article and no record of the edit available on the history page. I then back-paged to the previous edit pane view page (this then re-displaying the unresolved edit content again), clicked on <nowiki>[Save page]</nowiki> again and the edit subsequently resolved correctly. Now I will no doubt have to endure another trip on the mystery tour when I attempt to resolve this note on the Pub page. Also when logging in it takes me three page load attempts to get the login to occur. I just clicked on the side bar link for the Main page whilst in the read view of the Pub page, it took 5 reload prompts (from the address line) before the page started to load. The cache and cookies had been cleared and the browser 'reset' since the previous session reported in the posts above. (Postscript - Yes as I suspected I am repeating the experience and this edit is also requiring some revisits to get it to happen)..-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:32, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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:I think once the technology allows the cost to be more reasonable, I'll be willing to spend 1k [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 13:51, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:I'm in Melbourne, Australia. I got the 503 about ten times, and it took me about 20 minutes to ''save'' the above post. The page loaded forever, and would timeout to a 503. Eventually it finally did save the edit, but my screen went blank and there was no confirmation. Like felix, it's getting to the point where I'm not going to bother editing and posting here because it's far too much of an effort. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 02:16, 8 August 2012 (EDT)
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== If you were stranded alone on any island in the world, which island would you want it would be? ==
  
::Cacheing issues should now be resolved. You should no longer see any 503 errore. Please report if you see any *other* errors though.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:19, 8 August 2012 (EDT)
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Imagine all islands are now deserted, left only with the remaining amenities left behind by its former dwellers. (think zombie apocalypse) [[User:IBrobin|IBrobin]] ([[User talk:IBrobin|talk]]) 13:39, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:::It took 4 page reloads to log in from WT:Recentchanges page. Still broken from where I am looking at it. I am not going to try any edits in addition to this one, it was maddening the last time I was here and a complete time suck. Maybe when it is fixed I will try again.I am not going to tempt fate looking to see if the 503 error is still going to pop up on my screen, oh, here something new ... clicking on the tides at, or any other html shortcuts on the editing page makes the page move up to the top, no effect on the edit pane content, nothing appears there, just the 'jump' upwards of the page display--guess I will just type in the 4 tides. --  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:42, 8 August 2012 (EDT)
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:I'd have to go with the old standard: Hawaii. Lots of rain, lots of sun, great views. I can think of worse places to spend the rest of my life (although hopefully a few other people can stop by, so it's not so lonely haha). [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:14, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
:::* Oh, so that was fun, the Save page click gave this "''Internal error Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.''" -- type the tides again as the shortcut is still inactive --[[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:42, 8 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::*That gave "''Edit conflict: Wikitravel:Travellers' pub''" . I will try again. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:42, 8 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::*Well that didn't work either, lost all the content then then backed to a page that displayed it, but the Save page button was inexplicably missing from under the edit content pane, trying again...this is a bit like yesterday, glad I am remembering to copy the page edit content each time  ...-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:42, 8 August 2012 (EDT)
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That is very strange! I'm wondering if you are having some local browser issue too? Which browser & version are you running felix?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 20:18, 8 August 2012 (EDT)
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:Judging by google earth, Anuta island (part of the solomon islands) looks pretty cozy! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 19:19, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
  
: I just encountered the Internal Error/wgShowExceptionDetails error as well when editing on Shared, under Firefox 13.0, as well as when first saving this comment on :en. [[User:Dguillaime|D. Guillaime]] 00:41, 9 August 2012 (EDT)
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:The Americas please!!!!!! [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]]) 17:45, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:: Hi iBobi, just logged on so I could leave this note, 4 page reloads got that done. I am using Safari browser for mac, Version 5.1.7 (6534.57.2). I can now click on the <nowiki>Sign your name: ~~~~ (on talk pages only)</nowiki> link again, and also the nonwiki markup short cut (as per this edit content.-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:07, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:: Bora Bora!!! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 11:49, 13 September 2016 (EDT)
::* The edit did not resolve, after a drawn out period this message appeared:<br>
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::  "''Internal error''"
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::  "''Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.''"
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::  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:16, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::* Next attempt failed (Edit conflict) -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:16, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::* Then back paged, added the detail above, got another edit conflict, clicked on the EDIT link at the page head, trying again. --
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::  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:16, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::: I then logged out and came back using FireFox and a German proxy server and viewed the edited Discussion page.
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== Banner photographs ==
-+-
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::: Still using Firefox 14.0.1 (mac) and a US based proxy server 96.44.189.101 I then uploaded this edit. Page loads took a very long time as can be seen by the time stamps. --
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::: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:32, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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Thank you, felix -- all of that specific info is enormously helpful, and I am making sure tech sees all of it. Please keep updating us on your progress; dramatic changes have been made to cacheing, and we continue to work at it.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:31, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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I just want to ask - what is the criteria for the banner photographs and what they can be of for the articles on Wikitravel? The main thing I noted was a banner photo of the wrong place, as I noted on the talk page! [[User:Wetter88|Wetter88]] ([[User talk:Wetter88|talk]]) 12:17, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
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:'''Banners''' Wetter88, there are no hard and fast rules, except for the size and ratio of the photo. It's best to choose something engaging and illustrative and those can change over time if someone finds a better one. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:00, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
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::I noticed that the banner picture on the [[Woking]] article wasn't in Woking, so I was wondering whether this meant it was invalid as it was the wrong place! [[User:Wetter88|Wetter88]] ([[User talk:Wetter88|talk]]) 02:47, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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:::Hi, you're right, the [[Woking]] banner is wrong. We will create a new corrected one very soon (unless you want to try and create a new one). Thanks, [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 05:02, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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::::'''Accuracy''' It's definitely better to have a photo that really represents the place you're going. Personally, I'm not very hung up on it, especially if the photo is of somewhere nearby or comparable. This example is just a busy train station--honestly, I don't think anyone will be disappointed if he gets to Woking and this scene isn't there. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
  
: Well now that edit finally loaded I am able to view the page, and see my edits, and Ibobi's recent addition. However a very odd standout feature of all my (recent) edits is that they all have the same time stamp, even though I used different browsers and came at WT from from two entirely different IPs seperated by a lot of ocean. The edits from the Firefox browser and the US based proxy IP were incredibly slow, much slower then would be anticipated merely from proxy relaying, and of course certainly did not occure at the same time as the prior edits, that is decidedly strange (using Firefox and IP 212.84.206.250 in Germany for this edit
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== Fitness Around the World ==
: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:43, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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I'm US-based, and (especially in California) we have a major fitness sub-culture. Weightlifting, yoga, running, and the outdoors are all very big here. I was wondering about the fitness cultures of other countries and how those display themselves. Like here, running and physique are definitely the major areas, then probably yoga. What about Europe? Asia? How do different countries express their physicality? [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:51, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
:* It is notable that the error messages and the edit conflicts are not occurring, the edit conflict occuring earlier when using Safari (mac) and an Indonesian IP apparently arising from the WT server accepting the edit but providing an instruction to the browser to display and error message, that provided and a subsequent edit being made it is then not recognised as a new edit but is seen as an 'Edit conflict" even when the content is changed. This edit is from Firefox and IP 212.84.206.250, significant delays can be attributed to proxy relaying, but not entirely to that alone. --
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::  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:54, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::* So then I reviewed my recent edits an thought I might fix a couple of typos and comment further on the time stamps. But whilst still using the Firefox browser and a French IP I got this error message:
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::  "''The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.''"
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::  "''Please contact the website owners to inform them of this problem.''"
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:: So still using the Firefox browser (mac) and after a long page load and edit pane load I am back. Please note my last edit ( felix 15:32, 10 August 2012 (EDT) ) in the series of edits with a 15:32 time stamp. When that resolved I logged out and waited for the page to reload. Having viewed it and gained assurance I was indeed logged out I then opened my Firefox browser and set out to load the WT page using a proxy server, I viewed the page, then logged in, having logged in I loaded up an edit page, this all took a nice long time, then I wrote my edit and clicked on the EDIT button, that took also tokk a noticable extended time to resolve to a displayed page. Yet astoundingly the result of that edit had the same time stamp (felix 15:32, 10 August 2012 (EDT)) as the previous edit using a different browser, and a different IP and at a much earlier time. The WT/IB server appears to be applying time and date stamps appropriate to a US east coast setting, ie 12 hours behind my own physical location. So this is not an anomaly arising at my end, is IB using mirror servers that are perhaps experiencing a time setting conflict between each other and then having difficulties resolving page loads and edits.--
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:: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:46, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::  ''"The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.''"
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::  "''Please contact the website owners to inform them of this problem.''"
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:* I am going to try with a different IP to upload this edit.
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:* Please note the non-sequential time stamps in my edits above. The multiple edits with the same date and time are explained by my pasting the previously un-resolved edit (saved to my computer) into the new edit attempt with an additional later edit content appended below. However they are not sequential, at least one edit displays a time stamp prior to the ones above it. iBobi, perhaps check that all the (IB) servers are running on the same clock and calender time. Those were the earlier edits from just the one single IP in Indonesia and whilst using the Safari (mac) browser. Uploading this edit from a Swedish IP 83.209.239.207.--
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::  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:24, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
+
  
:: So still using the Firefox browser (mac) and after a long page load and edit pane load I am back. Please note my last edit ( felix 15:32, 10 August 2012 (EDT) ) in the series of edits with a 15:32 time stamp. When that resolved I logged out and waited for the page to reload. Having viewed it and gained assurance I was indeed logged out I then opened my Firefox browser and set out to load the WT page using a proxy server, I viewed the page, then logged in, having logged in I loaded up an edit page, this all took a nice long time, then I wrote my edit and clicked on the EDIT button, that took also took a noticeable extended time to resolve to a displayed page. Yet astoundingly the result of that edit had the same time stamp (felix 15:32, 10 August 2012 (EDT)) as the previous edit using a different browser, and a different IP and at a much earlier time. The WT/IB server appears to be applying time and date stamps appropriate to a US east coast setting, ie 12 hours behind my own physical location. So this is not an anomaly arising at my end, is IB using mirror servers that are perhaps experiencing a time setting conflict between each other and then having difficulties resolving page loads and edits.--
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:I like the British way-- http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fitness/2011/01/fitness_for_foreigners.html [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]]) 17:57, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
:: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:42, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::* Came straight back to correct a typo, no server error, so that means only the "Content encoding" error has happened with the Firefox browse. Uploading and logging out of this browser now. --
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:::  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:46, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::Back again after logging in using the Safari browser (mac). No problem logging in or loading view page or edit section page. Bit slow but consistent with previous performance, however seemed a bit quicker. Now lets see if the times are progressive and if the edit will take.--
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:::[[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:52, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
+
+
:::* ^^^^ Well I got an error message and an edit conflict -- below is a cut and paste of what should have displayed after the edit above, not this edit point should be following the copy ''"click section edit etc..."'' --
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::: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:02, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
+
  
:::Back again after logging in using the Safari browser (mac). No problem logging in or loading view page or edit section page. Bit slow but consistent with previous performance, however seemed a bit quicker. Now lets see if the times are progressive and if the edit will take.--[[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:02, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::Interesting article, to be sure! [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:01, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
:::*Well it did not work, I got this:
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:::  "''Internal error''"
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:::  "''Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.''"
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:::*So I will try again after copying all this to my clip board as no doubt I will need to come back in from a page view, click section edit etc...--
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::::  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:02, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
+
  
:::*  As per detail shown at ^^^^ the edit did not work and has been pasted in above, being rather tired of this I am now going to drive a crowbar through one of my feet for some fun as just about anything would be better than this time wasting nonsense. I really do hope the IB IT people are paying some attention and I have not just been wasting my time doing this. --
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==Embassy and consulate listings==
:::: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:02, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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What are your thoughts on having the embassy and consulate listings in the "Cope" sections of the main pages of every city? These listings also include code for the flag icons and add a lot bytes to the size of every page. They are also very distracting in the cases of some cities that have over 100 listings in this section and are rarely useful for the average traveler. I don't think many travelers will rely on wikitravel if they run into trouble or need a visa as most countries have a certain procedure for addressing these issues and travelers will visit the webpage of the applicable embassy via a google search. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 50.195.72.217|50.195.72.217]] ([[User_talk: 50.195.72.217|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/50.195.72.217|contribs]]) </small>
:::* That one worked without complication, just really slow. Logging out now--
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:::: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:05, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::  Look at the time stamps on the edits displayed on the page and compare with the editing history page list of edits, the time stamps there are sequential but display different time stamps to individual edit's own signature time and date stamps. Left hand is maybe not talking to the right hand?? --
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:::  [[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:22, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::: More of the same:
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:::: "''Internal error''"
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:::: "''Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.''"
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:::: Further edit conflicts/cache anomalies
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:::: [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:36, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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Is this perhaps a new editing enhancement, if so it is unappealing... From an attempt to edit an article :
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:I agree. I remember in the past we had a discussion about this, let me see what I can find about it. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 05:09, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
*"Session failure"
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*"There seems to be a problem with your login session; this action has been canceled as a precaution against session hijacking. Go back to the previous page, reload that page and then try again".
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*"Return to Main Page".  -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:40, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
+
  
:This was then followed by the error below when trying to upload the edit above...
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::I think that these listings are most useful in the non-capital cities like [[Denver]] or [[Manchester]]. A traveller might be able get a visa needed for later when in such a city, and would probably not have though of looking for a consulate there. Conversely a list is probably not so useful in [[London]] where you would expect almost every country to have an embassy. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 17:14, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
:*"Internal error"
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:*"Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information"
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:* Followed by an Edit conflict page.
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:: So I guess the problem is ongoing, I had to reload over 10 times yesterday to get a page to load. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 17:48, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
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:If I click on the "patrolled" [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Mandarmani&action=markpatrolled&rcid=1933955&token=a9f2ad5c33225cbfc9888a176d7fd79e%2B%5C&rcid2=0 Mandarmani&action=markpatrolled] link it loads:  
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:::That can be addressed by noting the countries that have embassies/consulates in a single sentence for these smaller cities.
*Session failure"
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*"There seems to be a problem with your login session; this action has been canceled as a precaution against session hijacking. Go back to the previous page, reload that page and then try again".
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*Return to Main Page".
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:*To 'Undo' and 'Edit' frequently requires multiple reloads of the page. Multiple attempts, edit conflicts and other anomalies are plentiful. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:12, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
+
  
::::::Hi felix -- did you mean to post these repetitive remarks? There seem to be 3 sections you just posted with somewhat different content, but beginning essentially the same way. I just want to be sure to accurately report what you're experiencing.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:06, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
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== Site usage data ==
  
::::::Hi iBobi, well I guess that illustrates the problem in a way. When I went to read your own recent addition I could not see either your content, or my own from earlier today. When I force reloaded the page I could.  What appears to be happening with some of the edits is they actually do upload, but either do not or cannot be loaded into a viewable page. These (repeated content) edits are arising from the ones that have generated the ''Session failure'' errors and ''Internal error'' pages. When the new content fails then the edit is attempted again. The outcome is often an ''Edit conflict''. This is apparently being generated in the instances when the edit has actually loaded into the system, yet still cannot be viewed, no doubt due to a caching problem. So, I cannot see it, I have an error message suggesting it has most likely failed and hence try it again, then arriving at an "Edit conflict". What you are seeing on the page is the outcome of my saving the edit in anticipation of it not uploading and the content becoming 'lost' and then when the edit fails I have reloaded the edit page, still cannot see the previously edited content in the edit pane and so have pasted it back into the edit pane from my clipboard. Then later I find repeats, yesterday I cleaned some of them out afterwards and replaced that removed content with a 'marker', this can be reviewed in the Histories if you are interested. I am not going to give myself a case of the head-spins going back through the histories again and trying to work out exactly which edit has done what , it is just too confusing. I tried yesterday thinking I could use the edit history page time stamps as a guide, then I saw they were seemingly entirely different to the time and date stamps appended to the displayed text. I makes editing a very tiresome process and it is difficult to ensure that edits are uploaded. --- if it looks odd it is because it is '''odd'' and highly frustrating. As it has started to fill up the page it might be an idea to archive it now. I am going to remove the repeated block so it is representing the error messages in the sequence, the messy version can be viewed in the histories if anyone wants to look at it.-- I hope this helps as it is both frustrating and time consuming, it is also filing the page with rubbish edits. Really I should have been writing a log of the entire thing offline as trying to describe it in sequential edits is impossible due to the problem itself. It is really quite maddening.If there is repetition in what still displays above it is because the problem repeats and I am documenting it, look carefully, one describes the outcome of editing on the [[Mandarmani]] article, another is the effort to report that here, and then a subsequent one attempts to report the failure of that edit, and onward. No doubt when I try to upload this there will be more. I am not going to log them though it is like banging my head on a wall.-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 21:16, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
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Hi Folks,
  
:Understood. We are only seeing this reported for you and one other (above), so we're considering if this is possibly geo-related. We'll keep plugging away at it, and thank you for your efforts here, they're invaluable. I'm just sorry this has been so frustrating for you.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 21:31, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
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I have a quick question, is it possible to get page view counts for a particular period, from Wikitravel?
 +
For example, could I get a list of the top locations that are searched for on WT and associate a location with them?
 +
Kind of thinking of a heatmap for WT page popularity for london.
  
::I, and others, have stopped reporting bugs because there are too many, it makes my head hurt to think about them further, the "work" you guys do to fix them seems to just involve either ineffectually turning off really important, basic functionality like... email, API, etc., or just creating new bugs for us to report. Progress is only towards the abyss. I've given up editing.
+
Thanks,
 +
Omar
  
::It is disappointing, though, that I am unable to email [[User:Cayla]], who is our [[Wikitravel:Docents|docent]] for [[Winnipeg]], since I had questions for Cayla about an upcoming trip. It's (one of) the same problem(s) that Felix reports: submit on the emailuser form generates ''Internal error. Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.''  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 03:53, 15 August 2012 (EDT)
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: Hi Omar, I'm terribly sorry about the delayed response, but that is a great idea! Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of feature at the moment. However, I will do my best to see if that's something we can implement in the near future. I will most definitely keep you updated and you'll be the first to know! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:04, 9 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::Ha! I get the message when I submit these edits as well. But at least they go through, unlike my email.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 03:54, 15 August 2012 (EDT)
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== Conflict Photojournalism ==
  
::::Hi iBobi, I do appreciate that there is a lot to sort out at the moment, and that is a rather arcane series of edits above, but if you look back through them you will note the following:
+
Hello Everyone,
::::1. ''I have encountered the same problem using entirely different browsers''
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::::2. ''Others are reporting the same error messages and are to the best of my knowledge in entirely different parts of the world''
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::::3. ''Inorder to clarify the ''geo'' issue I accessed WT through a proxy server system and thereby attempted a series of edits using entirely different IPs to access WT, from different countries''
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::::4. ''The time stamps showing appended to the edits on the Pub page and the Pub History page are in variance, apparently there is more than one clock and the clocks are set on different times in relationship to GMT (UTC)''.
+
::::5. ''This problem endures and I also note it effects the WT email facility''.
+
::::I  have been aboard vessels in distress at sea on a couple of occasions and know how worrying it can become when the decks appear to take longer and longer to clear with each new wave that comes across them.  I have often found myself in the engine room at times like that as inevitably something always seems to go wrong in there at the worst possible time. It can also be one of the hardest places to get back out of if the deck becomes permanently wet. I will be just quietly sitting this one out at the rails now.-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 15:29, 15 August 2012 (EDT)
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::::: How wonderful! I managed to log in... as Vietnam.visum or something like that with the Safari browser and cannot logout - I get just blank pages, even when trying to load the main page. With Camino I get that red error message box when I try to log in. I have pretty much the same to say as felix above except that I don't get that many error messages but instead empty/blank pages. We're obviously both Mac users if that may help. [[User:Vietnam visum|Vietnam visum]] 07:45, 16 August 2012 (EDT) (Ypsilon)
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:::::: This is ridiculous. It seems like I'm "Vietnam visum" when using Camino as well. [[User:Vietnam visum|Vietnam visum]] 07:48, 16 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::Are you saying you have logged in as yourself, but are actually logged in as a different user? That can't really happen. I wonder if you have two accounts, or are sharing a computer with another user, and you actually logged into their account.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:56, 16 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::: Yes. And it is not the first time but fourth or fifth that I'm logged in as someone else. For the last couple of weeks when I log in with my user name and password I usually get just an empty page when I hit "login" (or sometimes I get the red error box).  When I then reload the Main page it usually looks like I'm normally logged in (with my real user name) but this time the text in the upper right corner said "Vietnam visum". The first time this thing happened - a month ago - I wrote about it on Shared's Travellers pub [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Wikitravel_Shared:Travellers%27_pub#Wikitravel_has_some_alarming_problems_aka._WTF.21.3F] and saw that AHeneen also had experienced the same problem.  For me Wikitravel worked quite well before last month's update but after that it hasn't. And no, I have just one account and I'm not sharing the computer with anybody else. Might it be that you have a bug in the part of the new Mediawiki software that handles the login requests and matches user name and password or in the database where the passwords and user names are stored? (I'm not an expert on this stuff). And I'd like to ask Ltpowers, Ryan and other regular users: have you experienced anything like this or is it just us WT users outside the USA?  [[Special:Contributions/80.222.249.95|80.222.249.95]] 02:16, 17 August 2012 (EDT) (Ypsilon)
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==Spammers and other weirdness==
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First and foremost I'm aware of the dangers present, please do not convince me not to do this, although you could suggest similar career paths. Lately I've been interested in photographers in poverty/war/conflict stricken areas. I'm not interested in the dangers per se but I am interested how people act in wartime and other dire situations. Let this be a place where we can discuss these things. Is anyone a photojournalist in the first place?
 +
[[User:Misuta trent|Misuta trent]] ([[User talk:Misuta trent|talk]]) 12:51, 29 August 2016 (EDT)Trent
  
These look like the same user: [[User:Riyas786]], [[User talk:Riyas Ahamed]], and in fact, they are currently the sole contributions of [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/117.197.189.166]. Shall we block that IP? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 05:36, 6 August 2012 (EDT)
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:Hi Misuta! That sounds like a very interesting career path. It reminds me of HONY (Humans of New York) where he interviewed Syrian refugees  and American veterans affected by PTSD. It's crazy to think that these amazing/sad/inspirational stories are coming from people we see on the streets. What made you want to pursue this particular career path? [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:15, 9 September 2016 (EDT)
  
== Geographical hierarchy advice ==
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== External Links Style, two interpretations ==
  
I'm working on improving all the articles related to [[Bangladesh]], beginning first with major tourist sites. However, I'm having issues categorising specific sights into articles. Say for example, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somapura_Mahavihara Somapura Mahavihara], ruins of a Buddhist temple. According to UNESCO, it is in the tiny village of Paharpur. That village is probably too small for an article, so I could put it in a "Badalgachhi Upazila" article (upazila means county), but again, it'd probably be the only attraction. The next level up is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naogaon Naogaon District], which could easily get a few sights and attractions, and have hotels/restaurants dotted all over the place. But then does the administrative capital of the district, "Naogaon", get its own article? I'm finding it all very confusing, and want a clear-cut idea of how to subdivide the country so I can filter the information well. Thanks guys, <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 05:38, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
+
Hello.  
 +
Some time ago i came across 2 different interpretations of external links style policy. Some admins approved the "blue bold clickable“ external link style (avoiding footnotes) and encouraged me to revert footnotes to "blue bold clickable“ style, while some other admins reverted existing "blue bold clickable“ external links back to "footnote“ style. Also deleted some edits by other users who added listings in "blue bold clickable“ style stating it was "bad format“, although it exactly conformed the example presented on WT policy page. Would like to know which interpretation is now valid and correct.
  
:My thought is that [[Wikitravel: The traveller comes first|the traveller comes first]], so you should deal with this in whatever way you think will be most helpful to a visitor. If a decision is made later to change things, fine; at least you will have put up the information. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 06:45, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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And would like to avoid off-topic comments about external links content, formatting and other policy because i ask about external links style. I know WT policy too, no need to redirect me to those pages which i already know well. Those two opposite interpretations coexist in written policy, it‘s like some of those policy texts are slightly incoplete or something, but when it comes to adding useful info which is encouraged by one admin but deleted by other admin, i start to feel as if WT is busy with anything else but not with creating a proper guide. How to be a useful contributor if even to trust admin is risky. Could someone provide a strict statement which external link style must be used, a "blue bold clickable“ one or a "footnote“ one? [[User:Local|Local]]
  
::The real answer is simply that it ''is'' confusing. The destinations that we have best figured out how to break down and organize are huge cities, for example, [[Chicago]], which have districts for small, dense, and commonly understood regions like [[Chicago/Loop|the Loop]] as well as large, less dense areas that we have decided here to group together for convenience, like [[Chicago/Southwest Side]]. I think that we would ideally apply this same logic to basically everywhere, leaving no gap and no overlap at the bottom level of the hierarchy.
+
And sorry, but where is a "sign" button after the site was upgraded? [[User:Local|Local]]
  
::In your example, I might guess that a [[Rural Naogaon District]] article and a [[Naogaon]] (city) article would suffice to cover the whole area? Those would then be linkable from [[Rajshahi Division]]. That might look a little unusual, but that's a consequence resulting from the fact that Wikitravel hasn't figured this part out very well yet. I did something sort of similar at [[Montgomery County (Maryland)]] as a potential exemplar, although it has considerably more subdivisions than what I just recommended—you'll know the particulars of this situation better. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:02, 7 August 2012 (EDT)
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: Hi [[User:Local|Local]] thanks for stopping by! I'm one of new hired admins overseeing Wikitravel from Internet Brands. I'm aware that you previously discussed this issue with several admins and it was brought to my attention by Triskelle not too long ago. Despite some confusion, we are allowed to use both the "blue bold clickable" style and the "footnote" style for listings. Upon discussing this with Triskelle, we decided that it was in our best interest to stick to the footnote style for the [[Vilnius]] page. Most listings on this page used a combination of the two formats so I've been fixing it to reflect the footnote style listings. However, the only time footnote styles are not allowed is when a user is trying to link to a source to prove a point or back up a fact. Hope this answers your question! Also you can sign off using "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Let me know if you need more clarifications, I'd be happy to answer them. [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:36, 16 September 2016 (EDT)
 +
::: Thanks for matter-of-fact answer. Vilnius article or not Vilnius article it's irrelevant to me - can you confirm that previous policy change (March 2013) which made a switch from the "footnote" style to the "blue bold clickable" style is not valid anymore (with that exception you pointed out) and the corresponding policy page will be modified accordingly? Now it is only your "private answer" to my "private question", so to speak, i have no reason not to trust your explanation just don't see (so far) how it reflects on written policy (i.e. it does not reflect now). There was similar confusion back in 2013 but the policy page was quickly modified immediately when agreement among admins was met. As for the Vilnius article, you probably don't know all details, it was a [[Washington, D.C.]] article (a star one) which was taken as an example of how a nice article should look like. And Vilnius article was formatted after it. Discussions about it can be found in corresponding archived talk page. Can you confirm that Washington, D.C. article, in this respect, now can't be taken as such example? (I assume you do confirm). I ask for those details because there are no other confirmations of what you were discussing with that other admin, only those few lines above. I just want to be sure that i understand correctly. Whether it is this style or that style is irrelevant to me, i just want to be sure which one and that it won't be changed soon to the other one again. So thanks so far for your brief clarification, it is useful. And i assume there is no a "sign button" anymore, one have to sign only manually, is that correct? I'm a bit surprised that after the upgrade one have to do more manual work LOL... [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 06:58, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
  
== MediaWiki API not working ==
+
::'''MediaWiki help''' In case some of how the site works seems confusing, there is a [https://mediawiki.org/ wiki just about the software] as well. That site may be able to help you but you can also ask for assistance here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 03:14, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
 +
::: Thanks for that link, at least so far i don‘t see how, why and when to use it (i know how to navigate and edit), but there are many (too many) little confusing things (maybe too little to bother admins with), and one, for example, is about recent upgrade, namely it reads above: "''a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly''". Is it about the option "Upload a picture" – the WT Shared page opens, then it reads "Upload Wizard" but it‘s pending, nothing happens – is it about it? When i open WT Shared and click "Upload a file" – the same good old upload page opens, it seems everything OK, will it work if i decide to upload a picture? I have uploaded many pictures to WT Shared previously so the "procedure" is no problem, and i have a little pile of new pictures i was going to upload later. Judging by how the "Upload a file" option works i will be able to, and judging by how the "Upload a picture" option works i won‘t be able to upload using this option. Is that correct? Because if that is correct, the statement at the top of this page seems misleading, it implies that currently ''any'' upload of pictures is temporalily impossible. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 07:46, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::'''Uploads''' There is an upload wizard that is being deployed (I have no insider information on this) and if it's like at [https://commons.wikimedia.org/ Commons], it will not ''replace'' the standard method but complement it. Are there more things confusing or misleading about this wiki? I'd like to help if I can. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::: Aha, it won't replace the existing method, that's clear then. I know that wizard at Wikimedia Commons, i uploaded many pictures there. Well, i always appreciate any practical help from anyone and so far i have implemented it (all that i've learned from some of admins) in the form of texts or parts of texts, including some listings, here on WT, so some travelers could avoid some misunderstandings or so. Still it looks like a swamp to me.
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::::: By "confusions" i mean things that i encountered from the very beginning when i decided to correct some mistakes, and later to add this and that, and later implementing advices of admins, and later implementing advices of other admins and that's not mentioning conflicting or duplicated expressions (statements) on policy pages. I tell that as a user who was willing to make this guide more usefull. Those little confusions are the actual obstacles. I feel that i will give up, like many other potential contributors that i have encountered. I don't know if this is a proper place to clearify such small things? Two examples of such actual obstacles (it's like anecdotes, actually). First one, banners. It reads: "''If you'd like to update an article's banner with a new image, please post on that article's talk page. Make sure the community and admin team are in agreement that the new image should be featured''." Looks clear, so i, as a newbie, uploaded banner to the article's discussion page. After a while one of admins transfered it to the article itself. So i uploaded several more banners with no problems and no objections. Then i came across that some banners depict other localities, i found out why admins who uploaded them made such mistakes (there were some mistakes made by the Flickr photographers too), understood their way of thinking and understood that they do not know pecularities of location while i do know. Here starts the anecdote: according to banner guidelines, admins can't make mistakes. There is only option "If you'd like to update banner" (a bit sarcastically). Well, i accept that, authorities is authorities, so i wanted to "update" those banners, made the relevant ones and uploaded in corresponding discussion pages, provided brief explanations - and started to wait when "the community and admin team will be in agreement that the new images should be featured". Still waiting. I think, it's more than a year already, so not so long. What else should i do? I can easily replace wrong banners with correct ones, but one of admins made a clever remark to my comment: "you know, the existing banner looks better, i think". So, authorities is authorities, i don't argue. I want to reach agreement untill i make any moves. Because i constantly see how relevant info (including pictures) are deleted or reverted due to the lack of competence. This is not bad, anyone can make mistakes. Me too. I am used to this way to solve such situation: someone makes a mistake, another one points out, and then the one who made the mistake corrects it. This is normal in my business. But WT does not have any guideline that explains how to behave when you see the mistake you can't so simply correct, let alone mistake made by admin. Second anecdote. Say, i need help. Policy pages and guidelines tell "do that", "don't do that", and supposedly there are all answers to all possible questions, and if the question still arise one can post it at the Pub. What if it's silly question, or say, uncomfortable question like mine (just look to the amount of my text above) - it would be useful to receive a sort of "private consultation" or something. No. Don't bother admins, read policy. If you don't understand, learn english. It took several month to discover that polite and formal "Please feel free to contact me..." which is a sort of a private attitude or just a formal expression on admin user's pages, because such legal possibility does not exist in policy. I was reading policy, why should i look at admin's pages? Why stranger who want to learn how to edit properly should look to admins pages? One of admins politely agreed to answer my questions but i suspect finally got annoyed with my ignorance. Can't complain, it was a favour. Do you now offer me similar favour? It's a swamp, i generally tend to obey policy, which is a real swamp and i actually don't understand how it can be advantageous to WT or IB or anyone else to maintain it in current state. If policy had no conflicting and semi-duplicated sections and statemens it would be beneficial to all, and the new (potential) contributors would act in more reasonable way, at least many of them. Let alone misunderstandings between admins and regular users. So, is it a proper place to be helpful? My talk page would be a good place to me but nobody will reply there, and your talk page will be ruined with such ridiculous amount of texts, just look to my reply LOL. Anyway, i'd like to obey policy, i don't want to criticize or edit it, this is not for me. My little questions are endless, i don't dare to post them here. Plus that new admin didn't reply, probably he won't. I'd be glad if that what was mentioned here by me would be solved LOL  [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 18:05, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::::'''Help''' I'd be happy to help, Local. Obviously, if you are willing to put forth this much effort, you are willing to do some work to make this travel guide better. You can always post to my talk if you want or email me directly if you would prefer to not post it on a public forum. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::::: Thanks. Actually i was falling asleep when i was writing all this, so don't know what actual impression it made LOL... I'll have in mind what you say. Now it's not urgent because admin IBkataoka didn't confirm any detail i was asking above, at least so far. So i won't edit now because editing (or adding new info) involves some listings, and those listings have certain style, i.e. 2 possible styles, one of which is described in policy as a "must", while according to opinion of admin one must stick to another style. I don't want to do a double work, let admins do it if they see sense in that. So i'll simply wait and see. I can explain why opinion of admin is not sufficient: there is no any paragraph in written policy about double standards where guidelines are provided with explanation when one must stick to general policy, and when personal opinion of admin applies. So if now i start to write something and use the footnote style - someone else may revert or delete everything (or part), and he will be right because i violate existing policy. But i can see that potentially i may have actual "technical" questions in the future, i almost know what kind of. So i will contact you at your talk page, thanks. But so far i give up, i'm too busy to let me involve into confusions created by others :) [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 09:30, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Not sure if it's intentional or some side effect of recent upgrade, but http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/api.php gives me:
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:::::::: Hey [[User:Local|Local]]! Sorry about the delayed respond, but rest assured I wasn't ignoring you :) I've taken some time to figure out the best answers and options to help clarify policies regarding Wikitravel. I understand your frustration- few policies that exist now can contradict other policies and some even clash with each other. The admins and I are going to work together to re-edit some of the policies to make information more easily understandable. In the amidst of all this confusion, admins do and will make mistakes from time to time and that's okay! Since we are all human, it's pretty inevitable. We do however, try our best to keep mistakes to a minimum though. Also, there is NO such thing as a silly question-ever. We encourage questions and discussions such as these because that's what the Traveller's Pub is all about! And Wikitravel wouldn't be where we are today without the help and keen eye from our wonderful users.
  
MediaWiki API is not enabled for this site. Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php
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:::::::: Which brings me to the next issue. The sign off button that existed before have temporarily disappeared and the Upload Wizard is currently down, but we're glad you pointed this out to us because we are now working hard to get both back up and running. So thank you for pointing that out to us.  
  
'''$wgEnableAPI=true;'''
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:::::::: As for the external link style as I have stated before, we are allowed to use both formats. The only time footnotes are not allowed is when someone is trying to support their arguments or prove their information. The listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the [[Wikitravel:Listings |Examples section]] of this policy. Yes, I also understand you are well aware of all the policies but this is the one I strongly urge you to follow. Because of this, many pages will need re-editing, but with the help of the admins and fellow Wikitravelers, we will able to restore the pages accordingly. If you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know! I would love to further discuss them with you and the rest of Wikitravel. Best [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:42, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
  
If it's intentional, [[:shared:How to re-use Wikitravel guides]] should be updated. If not, can someone fix it? Thank you
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:::::::: Oh and one more thing I forgot to add. Banners. Would the best solution be creating a central banner page where users can submit their banners? This would be a page that admins will check everyday. Let me know what you think! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
03:43, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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: See also [[:shared:Tech:Mediawiki API Disabled‎]]. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 10:42, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::::::::: '''No need to be sorry''' ;) . Really appreciate your professional response. And professional approach. So far it was like dealing with kindergarten kids, except Aleksandra who alone obviously couldn't be responsible for all nonsenses of others. Your comments are crystal clear. Your attitude regarding footnote vs blue-bold-clickable style is crystal clear, and even the reason why it is such is clear to me. Also, i think i see the reason why my attitude regarding those styles seems not exactly clear for you, let alone others. So i do not have and didn't have complaints, thus how everything will be solved (this way or that way) is not my business, that is, i don't insist that this or that must be solved in this or that way. So i close my questions - you have answered them, and now i'll simply comment few things, as if responding to your "if you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know!".
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::::::::* Banners. I don't trust admin team and don't care about their competence because i'm perfectly competent myself to judge about technical and aesthetic qualities of banners, pictures, composition of them within text, aesthetics and composition of text with and without graphics, value of templates, how and why templates make impact on general appearance, and how details and specifics of formatting of both text and images make impact on the whole, that is, on general appearance of the page; also what is primary and secondary for the guide and how it fit or don't fit policy and guidelines. So, first of all, criteria provided at banner upload page are pretty sane, or normal if you like. I know that my banners meet all requirements and know why they do, and why there may be some doubts at some points - this is because for some particular places it is very difficult to find a proper source to create the banner, the sources (photos, that is) are scarce and i know that they are scarce and why. I, to be honest, do not need advices in this respect; my questions about banners were triggered by my bad experiences and distrust. Which turned out to be sane tactics. So i don't know - do you experience some confusions with users who make banners? That is, are there cases when they make wrong or inappropriate banners? I can say that initially, when banners were just introduced (not so long ago), i experienced one inconvenience, asked at Pub twice and received the reply of admin once, reply was off-topic and useless. By that time there were only few banners, now there are many but the question is still relevent to some extent: where are they? I don't talk about pages - where are the banners stored? I store my banners among my uploads at WT Shared. The point is that it is very useful to have a possibility to see them all (created by others) at one glance. When you see them all (like google search images, for example) you can judge about both whole and details in all aspects: content, aesthetics, trend. You then can judge yourself what are the requirements, what is considered "nice" and "appropriate". So they must be already approved by admin team. This would be genuinely useful. Maybe it could be just display, while they could be stored where they are now.
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::::::::* Footnote vs blue-bold-clickable styles. You say ''"listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the [[Wikitravel:Listings |Examples section]] of this policy"'' and I know why you do but you don'y know why i stubbornly don't want to accept that. At least i have such impression - do you see where the point is? In chronology and laziness. Did you check chronology and did you take into account human laziness? I now don't ask anything nor complain about something - i simply tell you in playfull manner what one can clearly see if he properly investigates the issue. I take into account that you are a ''new'' admin, i am newbie too so there are not so much differences in some aspects. So, initially there were only footnotes, it was not even a style but simply the "technical solution" or so. One option, one style. And all policy was written accordingly, there were neither confusions nor doubts nor misunderstandings in this respect because external links were supposed to be placed in those footnotes, sorry my english vocabulary is very limited, especially when it comes down to "technical" expressions, so please take that into account. Then, both WT community and admin team, found that the footnot style is visually annoying and practically inconvenient. Arguments were provided. Small discussion took place. No objections were raised. Aleksandra approved - but i have to say that i have no clue whether others were aware about this decision at all, i assume they are obliged to be aware but i think they simply silently accept such things and immediately forget. This is about 2012/2013, i also want to point out that your friend from Russia became admin later. So - i stress that - needful corrections on appropriate policy page were made. They still present. There is some pecularity: everything was designend, especially at "technical" point, that external links can be reached using footnotes, so if you want to make a blue-bold-clickable external link you have to do that manually. I don't know - maybe after recent upgrade this was improved? I don't see much difference, manually or not manually, simply when something works automatically it is more obvious. But this is secondary because the policy is primary. Changes in policy were made and requirements were described extremely clear, citation: ''"No footnotes. Travel guides do not use footnotes!"''. I was and am constantly pointing this requirement of policy because any other opinions are just private opinions and violate WT policy. Create a section of double standards or revert those changes or make other appropriate changes instead. It would be professional. Now it is a kindergarten. So, i continue about external links style. Here laziness comes into force: appropriate changes about style were made, having in mind that this applies to all external links. Now see - all policy is written in footnote style, to edit entire policy is a decent work, to say the least. So it was supposed that if policy has proper description about external link styles, it should be sufficient and everything else goes without saying. So let's see Listings page: humble change was made there too - ''"the URL for the official Web site for this listed entry. To display properly as a working, clickable hyperlink, either http:// or https:// must be included before the rest of the URL! (see external links for more guidelines)"''. Nothing special, one should see what kind of edit was made at 18:27, 15 March 2013 right after changing the Style Policy - very minimal correction, editor had in mind that the new style policy applies and this goes without saying. Isn't all that sufficient and doesn't it go without saying? Now the new admin comes. Indeed, why it should go without saying, all policy is written in footnote style, all articles have footnote styles, so what should here go without saying? In my oppinion, here should go without saying that admin team can't be a kindergarten, and that private opinions are not even secondary - they are nothing. And i indeed lost my temper during that silly conversation with your russian friend. I had idea to improve some articles of RU WT, but now not interested. So I continue. Blue-bold-clicable style was some sort of novelty, having in mind that all articles will be gradually changed from footnote style to blue-bold-clickable style. So both styles coexist, but since all texts are experiencing edits from time to time, it was expected that all footnotes will be smoothly replaced with blue-bold-clickable links. Like you pointed out - "many pages will need re-editing" LOL. Are you aware what you are re-editing and why? If you have professional approach, relax first, make appropriate changes in policy, then act according to the policy. Your choice what and how to edit in policy, but i have to say that if your coworkers didn't explain everything what i have told you here - this is not admin team, it's a kindergarten. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 08:41, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::Let me look into it; what's it used for?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:28, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::::: Hi [[User:Local|Local]]! Glad you stayed around to discuss this with me further. The admin team is a group of one the hardest working people that I know and although you may disagree, I know that they are doing their best. We may have had some miscommunication here and there, but please don't blame them. I assure you that from here and on we will all be on the same page. I sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for all the stress Wikitravel has caused you so far. As I've stated before, the admin team and I will need to thoroughly re-vist some of the policies and edit them accordingly so please be patient with us :) I will be sure to take your suggestions/comments and keep them at the top of my mind! Especially having the option to view all the banners made by users in one glance (That's a great idea!) I do however, still stand by my external link format that I've stated earlier. I'm glad that you find my reasoning for them crystal clear. Should you choose to accept them, I hope that you will continue to stick around to make contributions and edits to Wikitravel. Best [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 12:42, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::: See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Main_page. The Mediawiki API is a tool for people to programmatically access the site. The benefit to end-users is that it's easier to use the API instead of parsing HTML pages, and the benefit to IB is that the API is far less resource-intensive than full page generation would beI'm sure spambots are probably exploiting the API (as they exploit anything available to them), but it's a tremendously useful tool for non-spammers, too. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:39, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::::::As some of the edits that are mentioned above were done so long ago, it is hard to remember all details. I would just like to add something about the changing of banners (and other information). Usually if you see incorrect information, everyone here is entitled to change information, as long as you put a reason in the comment field, so all understand why something was removed/changed. With the banners, many people spent a lot of time finding pictures and uploading them, so just changing a banner because you don´t like a picture we don´t do, we try to discuss first on the discussion page of the article, in order to respect all editors here. Obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion. We always try to answer any questions asked by users, at times questions are not seen due to high amount of spam, some edits are auto patrolled and only seen later etc etc, so if you don´t get an answer somewhere, feel free to send a message to a user or admin directly, that usually works. The external link discussion has been going on for a while, mainly because the "add listing" format comes up with the footnote style and it could not be changed at the time of discussion (tech issue). There were other priorities to focus on, and to be honest, my priority has been content, and when editing a page and I notice something totally against our policies I will change it. That´s why it is so great to have so many editors here, one looks specifically at the policies, one looks at content, another looks at pictures etc etc. Since the latest upgrade there is much less spam so all of us will have more time to look at the details, on the EN version and on the language versions tooParticipating here is not meant to be stressful, enjoy it, we all work together on this great project. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:45, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::::If it is being used by the spammers, I'm not sure how much luck we'll have getting it re-enabled right now if this was part fo the anti-spambot effort.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 13:44, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::::::: Thanks [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] for your matter-of-fact comment, there is nothing to disagree with, it all goes without saying, so to say. You told some totally new things that i didn't know. This guide (WT) is rather widely used, i know that from some travel forums, and from those forums i discovered that source of some misleading info comes from WT (there may be more sources of course). So basically i'm interested in content too, and one of annoying things was that admins revert correct content to outdated content and provide explanations (different in different cases), and those explanations always are statement that this edit is totally against policies. I don't want to focus now on this (it's endless), i'd like to clearify those new to me things in more detail, say, some things about those banners. This is quite handy example. Your statement: ''"obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion."'' . So this is a case, this is what i wanted to do. To me no discussion is needed, just i expect that admin will come and revert it, stating that my "knowledge" is wrong because he knows better (or so, i'm simplifying). So, to prevent that, i posted simple question, something like "this one is wrong" and "let me know if i can replace it with the right one" (actual coment was longer). That is, i wanted and still want to reach agreement before i make any move, no discussion is needed. It was rather long ago indeed, i stopped editing because i don't know how to behave with those wrong banners. Wrong by content, not because i didn't like it. It was admin who didn't like correct one. So, as you see, it's such a simple thing and everyting turns into such a mess because there is no clear guidance what to do in case of mistakes. That option "if you want to update the banner", well, it is more relevant to photos that illustrate the text, while banner is more for representation, but yes, this option is usefull, but it does imply that existing banner is still correct, still represents the article, and may be replaced with simillarly correct one but with more qualities etc. While wrong content, incorrect location is a different thing. I assume it's a rare exception. Maybe even hardly possible. But still. If this is some obscure station (like in other discussion above) i agree that this is not very relevant but why not to replace it if you can make a correct one... and besides, this would be professional approach. But i talk about panoramic landscapes, manors, castles - i agree with you in all details, that is, that such banner should be replaced, but how one can do that if policy does not explain how and whether this is allowed? Once it's absent in policy - it goes without saying that this is not allowed. I assume(d), this is a prerogative of admin team. It would be quite normal. Editing is editing, adding new text or images is still editing, but mistakes left because of lack of knowledge, competence, by mistake, intentionally is a different thing, it's not always clear that and whether this is an actual mistake (otherwise it would not be left). So it would be normal if admin team has prerogative to deal with all obscure mistakes of content that occur. My attempt to clearify that ended in stern silence. Long or not long ago, it's secondary - it could be many more recent misunderstandings that ended in silence, just i got fed up. Now summer ended, i decided to try to clearify some things. So who can correct mistakes, like in case with those banners? Anyone? Or admin team? Or anyone can report to admin team and they will take care? I don't ask to answer, i'd like to see what policy says :) . Maybe there is some explanation, i could miss it, that's quite possible. I just want to add about that what is "obvious", like in your saying about banners with incorrect locations - there were many obvious things to me, but when admin says that for him it's obvious that he's right and i'm wrong and provide arguments that illustrate certain gap in his certain knowledge - what one should do then? This turns your reasonable advice to behave reasonably and sanely into impasse. And that is what wasted majority of my time on WT. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 15:59, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::::: Not having this functionality is a dealbreaker for me in terms of contributing to Wikitravel - I use it to keep a mirror of the site.  I understand that there is concern about spam, but the API was enabled until yesterday, and disabling it has had little impact on spam volume. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 14:04, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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'''Admin issues''' Local, I can't speak to any other admins but I am an admin here and I am not affiliated with Internet Brands. If you feel like someone did something wrong or that you simply don't understand, you can of course contact him directly or if you want an outside perspective, you can ask me. I'm glad you're here and have been here for awhile--I hope you want to continue contributing. If you'd like, you can send me an email. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:08, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::::::I understand that it is decreased functionality, but there are two spam issues we're trying to lock down. One is the volume of spambots being created, which is something I'm not sure there is a solution to within MediaWiki -- the openness of creating user accounts without email verification, the ability to make anon edits, etc. Other than manually deleting them, how do you handle that? The second issue is the reason Peter keeps blocking himself: he thinks spambots are exploiting MW to use existing accounts to spoof new spambot accounts. O think I see evidence that it has happened in the past, and that's what we're trying to address right now, and I'm guessing is the reason the API was changed. If that's the way to fix this, I don't know what other option we have. Do you have a suggestion?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 14:17, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::Thanks again for your input [[User:Local|Local]]. Sorry you feel your time is wasted here, we appreciate anyone´s input and edits. For future edits, just [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|plunge forward]], also with banners. We are all human, we can all make mistakes, admin on this site too, so as [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] says, if you feel you are not getting a response or the incorrect response or there are doubts, contact an admin directly. We are looking forward to further edits from you! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::::::: Please check with your tech team to find out if disabling the API is permanent - I assumed it was just a test, but if that's not the case I'd like to know as soon as possible. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 14:30, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::: Wait, wait, i assume there is no policy that allows to "contact directly", no? It's a bit anecdotically but i was reading "Plunge forward" policy a minute ago and guessing what does this mean: ''"Ignoring authority....Don't bother asking..."''. Maybe there is no doubts for you, but policy tells quite different... LOL .. I'll better wait for the updated policy version and see. If won't die until that LOL.. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 17:28, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::::: It should be possible to make API read only - http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgEnableWriteAPI &bull; 15:01, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
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::::: You are always welcome to contact an admin directly as Koavf and Adzas have suggested. But yes! Please do stick around for some updates and we hope it's to your liking :) Cheers! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 17:41, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::::::This is following a very distressing pattern of "fixing" problems by creating bigger ones... without even fixing the original problem.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 00:01, 11 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::: [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]], thanks for your polineness and good will, I appreciate it, but clarity in our "semi-private" conversation is not a policy; i'm now starting to suspect that i was wrong thinking that admin team should act more reasonably - how and why to act reasonably if policy is a mess... LOL [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 17:53, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::::::::::The spambot deluge continues, seemingly worse every day. Now we also edit with the knowledge that our work is no longer being backed up by anyone other than IB, whom honestly no one trusts to preserve the data if they decide it no longer suits them to do so. I have no idea why I should continue contributing here--[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 09:25, 11 August 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::This project has been running pretty well since 2003 with the policies/guidelines that are currently in place. Times change so policies/guidelines could be updated where necessary, but I don´t think they are a mess, sorry again you feel that way. As [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] says, some updates are looked at so probably best to take it from there. Happy editing! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 18:27, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
We're working to resolve the spam issues that you and other admins have reported, Peter, and this is one method to try to diagnose what is happening and resolve the issue. I know you're not suggesting we do nothing? This API has only existed for a month or two, so it seems unlikely that it's a make or break feature, right? As to your commentary on some sort of need to preserve data outside of WT (?), or an implied motive to lose data (?), not sure what that means, but I can assure you no data has been lost, nor could I even conceive of a reason to deliberately do so. Can you explain? --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 16:47, 12 August 2012 (EDT)
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== Evil website wants to steal your content ==
  
:: The MediaWiki API was introduced in v 1.8.0 and set by default "working" ($wgEnableAPI=true;). The API was working also in times of Wikitravel v 1.11. The statement "This API has only existed for a month or two" is incorrect because this option is default. A lot of services use the API including search engines. The most important feature are the autocomplete search suggestions ($wgEnableMWSuggest=true; default false) which are only usable with enabled API ($wgEnableAPI=true;) and enabled AJAX ($wgUseAjax = true;). This feature is used by all modern mediawiki sites. Disabling this API feature did not solve configuration failures. At least it is possible to set the read only flag. --[[User:Unger|Unger]] 09:46, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
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The evil website that started with stolen content wants to steal even more content. I cannot link because of the filter, but you know which website I am talking about. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 62.212.73.246| 62.212.73.246]] ([[User_talk:  62.212.73.246|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ 62.212.73.246|contribs]]) </small>
  
:Look at all the spam user pages in "Recent changes." I'm calling uncle! I simply refuse to waste my time deleting previously-deleted spam pages for free. Fix your damn problem. Your software needs to block spammers, period. Maybe I'll come back if things get better after a while, but so far, I vote No Confidence in you and whoever is allegedly working with you to ostensibly fix the security problems here. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 07:41, 14 August 2012 (EDT)
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:'''Fork''' The content forked to another site is totally within the bounds of the license that Evan and Maj chose for this project. 62.212.73.246, there is nothing "evil" about reproducing it (and building upon it as well)--it's part of the purpose of Wikitravel/voyage. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:13, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
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::I wouldn't say duplicating this site is "Evil", just pointless<small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 109.156.38.138| 109.156.38.138]] ([[User_talk:  109.156.38.138|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ 109.156.38.138|contribs]]) </small>
  
== Is this page relevant? Where would it go? ==
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== External links to printable PDF maps ==
  
I'm working with a group of people who need a place to keep a shared list of meditation retreat locations. We are having trouble finding a centralized non-sectarian site for it, so I thought I'd ask if this would this appropriate content for a single page on Wikitravel? There will be fewer than a few dozen locations listed, and doesn't really seem to be appropriate to hide the locations on individual country-pages, since seekers of this page will enjoy seeing all available locations in once place. Where might the page go, and be linked from? Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/92.41.251.237|92.41.251.237]] 10:20, 17 August 2012 (EDT)
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I would like to add links to printable maps I created on Inkatlas ([https://inkatlas.com/map/_ADN4ETM example]), but it seems like this is against the current External Links policy. I think a free, detailed, up to date printable atlas is something that's very useful to travellers. There is no way to include this external content in Wikitravel itself. Are such links, in fact, against the policy? If so, can an exception/change be made? Full disclosure: inkatlas.com is a project I'm working on in my spare time. [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]] ([[User talk:Kontextify|talk]]) 10:57, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
  
: You could start an articel for [[meditation retreat]], and have it listed in [[travel topics]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 15:41, 18 August 2012 (EDT)
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:Hi [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]], thanks for expressing your concern! I agree with you, a map is an important tool to travellers. However, external links such as yours have been reverted because it requires a user to go to your page and download the map in a PDF format. Popular pages such as [[Manhattan]] and [[San Francisco]] already have maps displayed within the pages that users can refer to. We do appreciate you looking out for fellow travelers though! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:21, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
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::I do appreciate the maps already included in articles, but I find they're often too small or not detailed enough to serve as a proper paper map of a place. Would it not be useful to link to a detailed printable map ''in addition'' to having the embedded ones? For example, articles about national parks and similar destinations can have links to printable maps with trails and terrain data (useful for hiking). Unfortunately, there seems to be no way of adding the PDF directly to Wikitravel. [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]] ([[User talk:Kontextify|talk]]) 10:11, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::'''Adding files''' In fact, these maps are made from [https://openstreetmap.org/ OpenStreetMap] data, which we can add to [[shared:|Shared]]. The licensing is not a problem. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 22:05, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
  
== Database Error ==
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==Destination of the Month==
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The end of the month is right around the corner, which calls for a new Destination of the Month! If you have any suggestions on where it should be for the month of November, be sure to stop by the [[Destination of the Month]] page and nominate a place! Cheers :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:41, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
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:'''North America''' In the United States, it is Thanksgiving season, so something related to our colonial history or the harvest would be appropriate. Additionally, it's autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, so somewhere that has beautiful vistas for seeing the leaves change could be good. Alternately, we could go the exact opposite route and encourage our Northerner readers to hit the beaches of New Zealand or Tuvalu... [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 21:21, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
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::That's a good idea [[User:Koavf|Koavf]]! Do you know of any nice places in particular? --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 16:06, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::[[User:IBkataoka]] Not off-hand. Of course, the trick is that we would need to have a germane destination that ''also'' has high-quality content here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 23:00, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::: Agreed, [[User:Koavf|Koavf]]. I'll have to do some digging and researching then :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:01, 24 October 2016 (EDT)
  
Seemingly every article comes up with "Database Error", and the following text:
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:I don´t know the area too well, but I remember the beautiful colours of the leaves this time of year in [[New England]], maybe pick a location there? No beautiful leave colours but [[Portugal]] is also still nice to visit in November. More chance of rain but overall still lovely temperatures and sunny days. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 17:17, 30 October 2016 (EDT)
  
''A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "LocalRepo::getArticleID". Database returned error "1146: Table wikitravel_org_-_shared.page doesn't exist (wikitraveldb1-new)".''
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::Awesome, thanks for your input [[User:Adzas|Adzas]]! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:01, 31 October 2016 (EDT)
  
It was working earlier today; glitch, or apocalypse? [[Special:Contributions/87.115.180.185|87.115.180.185]] 19:44, 28 August 2012 (EDT)
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==Upcoming Holiday Travels==
:When did you get that error? Is it still happening now? We did a cache update which may have caused a short error period earlier today. Also, did that happen when you were reading or editing?
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With some of our favorite holidays coming up, what are some of the best places to visit around Christmas and the New Year? Or maybe even to escape the holidays? I'm open to any suggestions! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:49, 14 November 2016 (EST)
:If you refresh the page you're working on/viewing, it should disappear.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 19:57, 28 August 2012 (EDT)
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:It's usually so expensive to travel during those months but If I had a choice (as a person from california) I would go to Australia to escape the winter weather! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 14:40, 15 November 2016 (EST)
  
 +
::If it's to escape the cold weather the in-vogue place to go is definitely Tatooine.  Great beaches, awesome bar scene and locals who can get you anything your heart desires. [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
  
== Copyright violation ==
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:::If you like snow: Michigan is great for the holidays. You can have a small town vibe, but with cultured cities all around. If you don't: The Florida Gulf Coast stays toasty throughout the early winter, and is pretty inexpensive.[[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 14:46, 15 November 2016 (EST)
User Adigax91 has been adding a lot of info recently in the "Buy" sections of many countries. Such an awful lot of content seems suspicious, and when these additions verbatim online, the search results sometimes come up with multiple sites all claiming copyright on their site's content, so it's not clear who the original owner of the content is. The top result that seems to be the source of the offending content is worldtravelguide.net. I'd do more searching, but it's late and I don't feel like spending the necessary time to research and delete all inappropriate content. Even if this came from an open source like Wikipedia, there's no attribution. I've written on Adigax91's wall to give him/her a chance to respond, but all offending content needs to be deleted ASAP. Checking a handful of examples:
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Turkmenistan
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::::There are beaches in Tatooine [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]]? I must go then. Michigan hmmm sounds a bit too cold for me, but maybe Miami for Christmas or as [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] suggested, Australia! I've always wanted to go to Brisbane. --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:50, 15 November 2016 (EST)
*[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Turkmenistan&curid=846&diff=1920325&oldid=1918575 edit]
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*[http://www.worldtravelguide.net/turkmenistan/shopping-nightlife] match
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Botswana
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:::::If you like snow and Europe, the Alps are the best choice. France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, there are dozens of places where you can enjoy skiing surrounded by beautiful mountains. If you want to escape the winter freeze and you still like Europe, I'd say that [[Andalusia]] in Spain or [[Sicily]] in Italy are both great destinations. Many Europeans choose capital cities to celebrate New Year's but they can be very expensive. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 03:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
*[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Botswana&curid=220&diff=1920047&oldid=1910087 edit]
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*[http://www.worldtravelguide.net/botswana/shopping-nightlife] match
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*[http://www.pearllinguistics.com/resources/botswana] match
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Uzbekistan
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:::::: [[Hong Kong]] definitely is one of the best places to be in during Christmas/New Year season: awesome parties, all kinds of carnivals/shows, great shopping opportunities, and the food (some of the best food I've ever tasted). You will never forget your New Year vacation there! So, go to [[Hong Kong]] and party hard!  --[[User:Binbin|Binbin]] ([[User talk:Binbin|talk]]) 08:51, 17 November 2016 (EST)
*[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Uzbekistan&curid=870&diff=1920326&oldid=1913103 edit]
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*[http://www.worldtravelguide.net/uzbekistan/things-to-do-old] match
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I'm sure if you search the rest of Adigax91's recent additions, you'll find they're all copyright vio's. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 02:54, 9 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::Hong Kong sure sounds like fun! Maybe I'll have to plan a trip there. But Switzerland is also great. I've traveled to there before and fell in love with the snow! Decisions, decisions... --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
  
:I have reverted everything the user has done this month. Thank you, Aheneen -- sharp eye!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] [[User talk:IBobi|talk]] [[Special:EmailUser/IBobi|email]] 15:37, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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We should revive/do a piece on the European Christmas markets...? Do a Google search for Wikitravel Christmas Market and a ton of our existing articles show up that we could link to. Maybe create a TOUR that includes the favorites? [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 20:41, 17 November 2016 (EST)
  
== Wikitravel in the New York Times ==
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::I was about to mention the Christmas markets, they have great markets in [[Germany]], but here in [[Portugal]] we have some nice ones too, going to one tomorrow, lovely atmosphere, great entertainment for young and old. We have a nice article for [[Christmas Food]], we could use a similar layout for a list of markets? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 13:34, 19 November 2016 (EST)
  
See [[Wikitravel:Press coverage#2012]]. [[User:Jpatokal|jpatokal]] 07:59, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::Great! I say we get started on it then :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 18:08, 21 November 2016 (EST)
  
==[[Archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]==
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::::I´m happy to start something for the markets, any suggestions on the format or shall I do the food format? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:28, 22 November 2016 (EST)
Started a page about [[archaeological sites]] and [[Old Towns]]. Contributions and cross-links are welcome. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 08:58, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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: New articles: [[Christian buildings, sites and events]] and [[Muslim buildings, sites and events]]. /[[User:Blist|Blist]] 10:39, 10 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::::That'd be great [[User:Adzas|Adzas]]! Any format you think would be best :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:49, 22 November 2016 (EST)
  
:: These should link to existing articles such as [[Holy Land]] and [[UNESCO World Heritage List]]. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 20:52, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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::::::I created [[Christmas Markets]] for now, work in progress. The layout is there, so all can easily add their favourite market and picture. It does not have to be just Europe, but it´s a start, any further input is welcome! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:38, 23 November 2016 (EST)
  
==Right to vanish policy==
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:::::::Work in progress still, I added some names and locations (tips from friends living in those places). I will add content but obviously feel free to jump in and make changes, add new locations. [[Germany]] is a popular location for those markets, lets see if we can add a few more different countries. Looking for some pictures now, will be uploaded shortly. Thanks all! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 06:38, 1 December 2016 (EST)
I feel that we lack a right to vanish policy. The meatball version is to be found [http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RightToVanish here]. The Wikipedia version is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Courtesy_vanishing here]. Suggestion: import the current Wikipedia version. [[User:Riggwelter|Riggwelter]] 09:45, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::Sounds great, thank you! I added the info about Switzerland, but I'll continue adding other info as well :) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 10:42, 1 December 2016 (EST)

Latest revision as of 15:46, 1 December 2016

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

  • If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

Wikitravel Upgrade[edit]

Our site upgraded in June 2016!
We're happy to announce that Wikitravel has been updated to the latest version of mediawiki. We'd appreciate any help to catch and fix any bugs resulting from the update! Simply report bugs on our shared site.

Some of the new changes include:

  • an updated edit toolbar
  • an updated user toolbar
  • notifications
  • table of contents on banners now have dropdowns with sub-sections
  • multimedia galleries on every page
  • a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly
  • many small performance and efficiency changes


ideas for group travel, family that does not get together much[edit]

HI What a fabulous project! I cannot believe I never found this before. Some of my family wants to get together more often and we are trying to organize a group trip, 5 or so days, prepaid food options, lots of activities, and I don't think we care where we go but some need to keep the costs down. Most of the family is in the north east. Any one have suggestions about places to go, cruises to try, etc.

Hi there! If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Vermont! It's beautiful there and relatively less costly than a lot of places in New England. IBJoel (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Vermont is a great suggestion - especially during foliage. You can check out activities and tours in different locations at PlacePass.com - should help you get inspired!

Hello! Ignore having family trips during Spring months March and April because of Spring Breakers. Cabo San Lucas has many beach hotels with cheap all-inclusive packages and fun water attractions for the kids. Puerto Peñasco aka Rocky Point has many affordable beach houses to rent. Catalina Island is chalk full of family visitors and easily noticeable activities all along the beach. I suggest renting a house or condo near the main city of Avalon. Catalina is my top preference for you because of the darling city and the family-friendly environment. IBrobin (talk) 16:12, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Re: Appearance of external links / Front-Linked listings[edit]

I am a new user and trying to find an answer to what I think is a simple question: What format should external links have? This is one of the most basic things that people would do in the wiki (adding links to sites) and yet I'm seeing an incongruity between formatting and policy. As it stands in the external links help page [1] we should add labels to web pages and I'm fine with that, but then when I use the code for listings (e.g. " < sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep > " ) it automatically goes back to footnotes and I can't seem to change it.

I would not bring this up if it was a recent issue but people have been talking about this (using / not using footnotes; replacing the number of the footnote with a nice icon [2]) since 2007 and yet the code is still doing its same old thing.

As a new user, trying to add info to the site and then having to spend hours (trying to figure out what's going on with external links and why I can't get them to display in the way that I've been told to display them) seems very counter productive and demotivating. It makes me wonder how many other laymen have tried to make changes to pages and then just end up abandoning the whole thing cause guidelines don't match what's really going on and it all just takes to long to find an answer. Latest discussion I've seen about this, just makes it seem as if nothing is being changed and so what [3]

Similarly, the whole discussion about front linked listings has been going on since before 2005 [4] with no clear resolution in the primary guides (help file) on formatting (from what I can see, correct me if I'm wrong). Whilst I at first preferred front links for their aesthetic and simplicity, reading other people's counterpoints make it clear why front links aren't a good idea: As stated by Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT) [5], he points out how some listings appear worse because they don't have hyperlinks or that having longer hyperlinks (thanks to the hyperlinked name being longer) would make them more likely to be clicked.

If icons were to be used (a nice globe icon, easily recognizable as world wide web) this wouldn't need to be a discussion and the points raised would be resolved, using footnotes does solve the issue but people also complain about the aesthetics of it etc. Rhetorical (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2016 (EDT)

Cannot edit my own user page[edit]

Hi I am trying to edit my user page while logged in. I have just created an account so that might be the issue. Error is "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Dark Tower" Is there anyway this can be fixed?

--Wandering Roman (talk) 03:51, 26 May 2016 (EDT)

Hi Wandering Roman, thank you for reaching out here. I've added a test message on your user page just now. Seems okay to me. Can you please try again (please blank my test message) now and let us know if you still have this error? Thank you! --Binbin (talk) 04:19, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry to say that it is still happening. Though I think there is a problem with the back end of the site. Have a look at the Abuse Log and you will see other people are having similar problems. http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:AbuseLog
Thanks for your help. Its very fast.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Looking at the log more closely looks like it was miss-configured and that this has been a reoccurring problem since 2012, though in 2012 the problem was occurring under the filter named The Beaver. You may want to contact IBobi, the administrator to look at the filter list as from what I have read it can only be fixed by admin/bureaucrat groups on WikiTravel
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Hi, are you trying to add a certain link to your user page? The filter you are mentioning is blocking certain links, if you just add text you should be ok. Let us know what exactly you are trying to add ok? Thanks! Adzas (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry, Adzas I am not just trying to post some basic information about my self. There are no internal or external links. Thanks for the help tho.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
I have disabled the Dark Tower abuse filter. Thank you for the heads-up, Wandering Roman! IBobi (talk) 15:56, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

Electric vehicle charging stations on Wikitravel/Autonomous vehicles for the future?[edit]

With these types of cars becoming increasingly popular and fully autonomous vehicles quickly becoming reality, should things such as charging stations be listed? In the future, what about autonomous pickup/dropoff locations as well? --Tyen (talk) 12:48, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

I for one hate driving with a passion especially in Los Angeles, the traffic hell of the universe. Charging stations wouldn't be useful listed on pages as they need specific address locations and individual city pages are too vague. Ibrshao (talk)

I don´t know how many of those charging stations would be available in a location, I think a mention that charging stations are available would be beneficial, but individual listings I don´t think that would be needed, it would be like posting all petrol stations in a location. Just my thought.... Adzas (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2016 (EDT)
True, posting them all would be indeed too much. --Tyen (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2016 (EDT)
Did anyone see that news article about the guy taking up three whole charging spots? IBJoel (talk) 12:59, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

New Update Today![edit]

Woohoo, hopefully everything goes smooth! Tyen (talk) 16:36, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

So far, so good I haven't noticed any problems. Has anything been reported so far? Koavf (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Luckily not too many issues with the switch! IBJoel (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Just a bit of spam but not too bad! Tyen (talk) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
I do an edit, and write an edit summary, but when I try to save it a pop-up asks me to write a another, separate edit summary. Nurg (talk) 04:45, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Well, sometimes it does it, but not always. When it happens, the heading of the pop-up is "Publish to {{SITENAME}}". Nurg (talk) 04:47, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Shared This should definitely be posted to the Pub on Shared. That's a serious bug. Koavf (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
OK. thanks. Nurg (talk) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Space travel[edit]

When it becomes available at what price point will you partake in space travel. Not the near earth orbit/ vomit comet stuff but actually leave the atmosphere to the moon type stuff. 10 thousand? 20 thousand? Ibrshao (talk)

Honestly, I can't even handle rollercoasters, so I'm not sure how well I'd do when pulling the Gs of space flight. And I mean, there's enough stuff on the planet I need to see IBJoel (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2016 (EDT)
I think once the technology allows the cost to be more reasonable, I'll be willing to spend 1k Tyen (talk) 13:51, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

If you were stranded alone on any island in the world, which island would you want it would be?[edit]

Imagine all islands are now deserted, left only with the remaining amenities left behind by its former dwellers. (think zombie apocalypse) IBrobin (talk) 13:39, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

I'd have to go with the old standard: Hawaii. Lots of rain, lots of sun, great views. I can think of worse places to spend the rest of my life (although hopefully a few other people can stop by, so it's not so lonely haha). IBJoel (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
Judging by google earth, Anuta island (part of the solomon islands) looks pretty cozy! Tyen (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
The Americas please!!!!!! Ibrshao (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Bora Bora!!! Adzas (talk) 11:49, 13 September 2016 (EDT)

[edit]

I just want to ask - what is the criteria for the banner photographs and what they can be of for the articles on Wikitravel? The main thing I noted was a banner photo of the wrong place, as I noted on the talk page! Wetter88 (talk) 12:17, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

Banners Wetter88, there are no hard and fast rules, except for the size and ratio of the photo. It's best to choose something engaging and illustrative and those can change over time if someone finds a better one. Koavf (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
I noticed that the banner picture on the Woking article wasn't in Woking, so I was wondering whether this meant it was invalid as it was the wrong place! Wetter88 (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Hi, you're right, the Woking banner is wrong. We will create a new corrected one very soon (unless you want to try and create a new one). Thanks, GiulioC (talk) 05:02, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Accuracy It's definitely better to have a photo that really represents the place you're going. Personally, I'm not very hung up on it, especially if the photo is of somewhere nearby or comparable. This example is just a busy train station--honestly, I don't think anyone will be disappointed if he gets to Woking and this scene isn't there. Koavf (talk) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Fitness Around the World[edit]

I'm US-based, and (especially in California) we have a major fitness sub-culture. Weightlifting, yoga, running, and the outdoors are all very big here. I was wondering about the fitness cultures of other countries and how those display themselves. Like here, running and physique are definitely the major areas, then probably yoga. What about Europe? Asia? How do different countries express their physicality? IBJoel (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

I like the British way-- http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fitness/2011/01/fitness_for_foreigners.html Ibrshao (talk) 17:57, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Interesting article, to be sure! IBJoel (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Embassy and consulate listings[edit]

What are your thoughts on having the embassy and consulate listings in the "Cope" sections of the main pages of every city? These listings also include code for the flag icons and add a lot bytes to the size of every page. They are also very distracting in the cases of some cities that have over 100 listings in this section and are rarely useful for the average traveler. I don't think many travelers will rely on wikitravel if they run into trouble or need a visa as most countries have a certain procedure for addressing these issues and travelers will visit the webpage of the applicable embassy via a google search. —The preceding comment was added by 50.195.72.217 (talkcontribs)

I agree. I remember in the past we had a discussion about this, let me see what I can find about it. Adzas (talk) 05:09, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
I think that these listings are most useful in the non-capital cities like Denver or Manchester. A traveller might be able get a visa needed for later when in such a city, and would probably not have though of looking for a consulate there. Conversely a list is probably not so useful in London where you would expect almost every country to have an embassy. AlasdairW (talk) 17:14, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
That can be addressed by noting the countries that have embassies/consulates in a single sentence for these smaller cities.

Site usage data[edit]

Hi Folks,

I have a quick question, is it possible to get page view counts for a particular period, from Wikitravel? For example, could I get a list of the top locations that are searched for on WT and associate a location with them? Kind of thinking of a heatmap for WT page popularity for london.

Thanks, Omar

Hi Omar, I'm terribly sorry about the delayed response, but that is a great idea! Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of feature at the moment. However, I will do my best to see if that's something we can implement in the near future. I will most definitely keep you updated and you'll be the first to know! IBkataoka (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

Conflict Photojournalism[edit]

Hello Everyone,

First and foremost I'm aware of the dangers present, please do not convince me not to do this, although you could suggest similar career paths. Lately I've been interested in photographers in poverty/war/conflict stricken areas. I'm not interested in the dangers per se but I am interested how people act in wartime and other dire situations. Let this be a place where we can discuss these things. Is anyone a photojournalist in the first place? Misuta trent (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2016 (EDT)Trent

Hi Misuta! That sounds like a very interesting career path. It reminds me of HONY (Humans of New York) where he interviewed Syrian refugees and American veterans affected by PTSD. It's crazy to think that these amazing/sad/inspirational stories are coming from people we see on the streets. What made you want to pursue this particular career path? IBkataoka (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

External Links Style, two interpretations[edit]

Hello. Some time ago i came across 2 different interpretations of external links style policy. Some admins approved the "blue bold clickable“ external link style (avoiding footnotes) and encouraged me to revert footnotes to "blue bold clickable“ style, while some other admins reverted existing "blue bold clickable“ external links back to "footnote“ style. Also deleted some edits by other users who added listings in "blue bold clickable“ style stating it was "bad format“, although it exactly conformed the example presented on WT policy page. Would like to know which interpretation is now valid and correct.

And would like to avoid off-topic comments about external links content, formatting and other policy because i ask about external links style. I know WT policy too, no need to redirect me to those pages which i already know well. Those two opposite interpretations coexist in written policy, it‘s like some of those policy texts are slightly incoplete or something, but when it comes to adding useful info which is encouraged by one admin but deleted by other admin, i start to feel as if WT is busy with anything else but not with creating a proper guide. How to be a useful contributor if even to trust admin is risky. Could someone provide a strict statement which external link style must be used, a "blue bold clickable“ one or a "footnote“ one? Local

And sorry, but where is a "sign" button after the site was upgraded? Local

Hi Local thanks for stopping by! I'm one of new hired admins overseeing Wikitravel from Internet Brands. I'm aware that you previously discussed this issue with several admins and it was brought to my attention by Triskelle not too long ago. Despite some confusion, we are allowed to use both the "blue bold clickable" style and the "footnote" style for listings. Upon discussing this with Triskelle, we decided that it was in our best interest to stick to the footnote style for the Vilnius page. Most listings on this page used a combination of the two formats so I've been fixing it to reflect the footnote style listings. However, the only time footnote styles are not allowed is when a user is trying to link to a source to prove a point or back up a fact. Hope this answers your question! Also you can sign off using "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Let me know if you need more clarifications, I'd be happy to answer them. IBkataoka (talk) 19:36, 16 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for matter-of-fact answer. Vilnius article or not Vilnius article it's irrelevant to me - can you confirm that previous policy change (March 2013) which made a switch from the "footnote" style to the "blue bold clickable" style is not valid anymore (with that exception you pointed out) and the corresponding policy page will be modified accordingly? Now it is only your "private answer" to my "private question", so to speak, i have no reason not to trust your explanation just don't see (so far) how it reflects on written policy (i.e. it does not reflect now). There was similar confusion back in 2013 but the policy page was quickly modified immediately when agreement among admins was met. As for the Vilnius article, you probably don't know all details, it was a Washington, D.C. article (a star one) which was taken as an example of how a nice article should look like. And Vilnius article was formatted after it. Discussions about it can be found in corresponding archived talk page. Can you confirm that Washington, D.C. article, in this respect, now can't be taken as such example? (I assume you do confirm). I ask for those details because there are no other confirmations of what you were discussing with that other admin, only those few lines above. I just want to be sure that i understand correctly. Whether it is this style or that style is irrelevant to me, i just want to be sure which one and that it won't be changed soon to the other one again. So thanks so far for your brief clarification, it is useful. And i assume there is no a "sign button" anymore, one have to sign only manually, is that correct? I'm a bit surprised that after the upgrade one have to do more manual work LOL... Local (talk) 06:58, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
MediaWiki help In case some of how the site works seems confusing, there is a wiki just about the software as well. That site may be able to help you but you can also ask for assistance here. Koavf (talk) 03:14, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for that link, at least so far i don‘t see how, why and when to use it (i know how to navigate and edit), but there are many (too many) little confusing things (maybe too little to bother admins with), and one, for example, is about recent upgrade, namely it reads above: "a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly". Is it about the option "Upload a picture" – the WT Shared page opens, then it reads "Upload Wizard" but it‘s pending, nothing happens – is it about it? When i open WT Shared and click "Upload a file" – the same good old upload page opens, it seems everything OK, will it work if i decide to upload a picture? I have uploaded many pictures to WT Shared previously so the "procedure" is no problem, and i have a little pile of new pictures i was going to upload later. Judging by how the "Upload a file" option works i will be able to, and judging by how the "Upload a picture" option works i won‘t be able to upload using this option. Is that correct? Because if that is correct, the statement at the top of this page seems misleading, it implies that currently any upload of pictures is temporalily impossible. Local (talk) 07:46, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Uploads There is an upload wizard that is being deployed (I have no insider information on this) and if it's like at Commons, it will not replace the standard method but complement it. Are there more things confusing or misleading about this wiki? I'd like to help if I can. Koavf (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Aha, it won't replace the existing method, that's clear then. I know that wizard at Wikimedia Commons, i uploaded many pictures there. Well, i always appreciate any practical help from anyone and so far i have implemented it (all that i've learned from some of admins) in the form of texts or parts of texts, including some listings, here on WT, so some travelers could avoid some misunderstandings or so. Still it looks like a swamp to me.
By "confusions" i mean things that i encountered from the very beginning when i decided to correct some mistakes, and later to add this and that, and later implementing advices of admins, and later implementing advices of other admins and that's not mentioning conflicting or duplicated expressions (statements) on policy pages. I tell that as a user who was willing to make this guide more usefull. Those little confusions are the actual obstacles. I feel that i will give up, like many other potential contributors that i have encountered. I don't know if this is a proper place to clearify such small things? Two examples of such actual obstacles (it's like anecdotes, actually). First one, banners. It reads: "If you'd like to update an article's banner with a new image, please post on that article's talk page. Make sure the community and admin team are in agreement that the new image should be featured." Looks clear, so i, as a newbie, uploaded banner to the article's discussion page. After a while one of admins transfered it to the article itself. So i uploaded several more banners with no problems and no objections. Then i came across that some banners depict other localities, i found out why admins who uploaded them made such mistakes (there were some mistakes made by the Flickr photographers too), understood their way of thinking and understood that they do not know pecularities of location while i do know. Here starts the anecdote: according to banner guidelines, admins can't make mistakes. There is only option "If you'd like to update banner" (a bit sarcastically). Well, i accept that, authorities is authorities, so i wanted to "update" those banners, made the relevant ones and uploaded in corresponding discussion pages, provided brief explanations - and started to wait when "the community and admin team will be in agreement that the new images should be featured". Still waiting. I think, it's more than a year already, so not so long. What else should i do? I can easily replace wrong banners with correct ones, but one of admins made a clever remark to my comment: "you know, the existing banner looks better, i think". So, authorities is authorities, i don't argue. I want to reach agreement untill i make any moves. Because i constantly see how relevant info (including pictures) are deleted or reverted due to the lack of competence. This is not bad, anyone can make mistakes. Me too. I am used to this way to solve such situation: someone makes a mistake, another one points out, and then the one who made the mistake corrects it. This is normal in my business. But WT does not have any guideline that explains how to behave when you see the mistake you can't so simply correct, let alone mistake made by admin. Second anecdote. Say, i need help. Policy pages and guidelines tell "do that", "don't do that", and supposedly there are all answers to all possible questions, and if the question still arise one can post it at the Pub. What if it's silly question, or say, uncomfortable question like mine (just look to the amount of my text above) - it would be useful to receive a sort of "private consultation" or something. No. Don't bother admins, read policy. If you don't understand, learn english. It took several month to discover that polite and formal "Please feel free to contact me..." which is a sort of a private attitude or just a formal expression on admin user's pages, because such legal possibility does not exist in policy. I was reading policy, why should i look at admin's pages? Why stranger who want to learn how to edit properly should look to admins pages? One of admins politely agreed to answer my questions but i suspect finally got annoyed with my ignorance. Can't complain, it was a favour. Do you now offer me similar favour? It's a swamp, i generally tend to obey policy, which is a real swamp and i actually don't understand how it can be advantageous to WT or IB or anyone else to maintain it in current state. If policy had no conflicting and semi-duplicated sections and statemens it would be beneficial to all, and the new (potential) contributors would act in more reasonable way, at least many of them. Let alone misunderstandings between admins and regular users. So, is it a proper place to be helpful? My talk page would be a good place to me but nobody will reply there, and your talk page will be ruined with such ridiculous amount of texts, just look to my reply LOL. Anyway, i'd like to obey policy, i don't want to criticize or edit it, this is not for me. My little questions are endless, i don't dare to post them here. Plus that new admin didn't reply, probably he won't. I'd be glad if that what was mentioned here by me would be solved LOL Local (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Help I'd be happy to help, Local. Obviously, if you are willing to put forth this much effort, you are willing to do some work to make this travel guide better. You can always post to my talk if you want or email me directly if you would prefer to not post it on a public forum. Koavf (talk) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks. Actually i was falling asleep when i was writing all this, so don't know what actual impression it made LOL... I'll have in mind what you say. Now it's not urgent because admin IBkataoka didn't confirm any detail i was asking above, at least so far. So i won't edit now because editing (or adding new info) involves some listings, and those listings have certain style, i.e. 2 possible styles, one of which is described in policy as a "must", while according to opinion of admin one must stick to another style. I don't want to do a double work, let admins do it if they see sense in that. So i'll simply wait and see. I can explain why opinion of admin is not sufficient: there is no any paragraph in written policy about double standards where guidelines are provided with explanation when one must stick to general policy, and when personal opinion of admin applies. So if now i start to write something and use the footnote style - someone else may revert or delete everything (or part), and he will be right because i violate existing policy. But i can see that potentially i may have actual "technical" questions in the future, i almost know what kind of. So i will contact you at your talk page, thanks. But so far i give up, i'm too busy to let me involve into confusions created by others :) Local (talk) 09:30, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Hey Local! Sorry about the delayed respond, but rest assured I wasn't ignoring you :) I've taken some time to figure out the best answers and options to help clarify policies regarding Wikitravel. I understand your frustration- few policies that exist now can contradict other policies and some even clash with each other. The admins and I are going to work together to re-edit some of the policies to make information more easily understandable. In the amidst of all this confusion, admins do and will make mistakes from time to time and that's okay! Since we are all human, it's pretty inevitable. We do however, try our best to keep mistakes to a minimum though. Also, there is NO such thing as a silly question-ever. We encourage questions and discussions such as these because that's what the Traveller's Pub is all about! And Wikitravel wouldn't be where we are today without the help and keen eye from our wonderful users.
Which brings me to the next issue. The sign off button that existed before have temporarily disappeared and the Upload Wizard is currently down, but we're glad you pointed this out to us because we are now working hard to get both back up and running. So thank you for pointing that out to us.
As for the external link style as I have stated before, we are allowed to use both formats. The only time footnotes are not allowed is when someone is trying to support their arguments or prove their information. The listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy. Yes, I also understand you are well aware of all the policies but this is the one I strongly urge you to follow. Because of this, many pages will need re-editing, but with the help of the admins and fellow Wikitravelers, we will able to restore the pages accordingly. If you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know! I would love to further discuss them with you and the rest of Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Oh and one more thing I forgot to add. Banners. Would the best solution be creating a central banner page where users can submit their banners? This would be a page that admins will check everyday. Let me know what you think! IBkataoka (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
No need to be sorry ;) . Really appreciate your professional response. And professional approach. So far it was like dealing with kindergarten kids, except Aleksandra who alone obviously couldn't be responsible for all nonsenses of others. Your comments are crystal clear. Your attitude regarding footnote vs blue-bold-clickable style is crystal clear, and even the reason why it is such is clear to me. Also, i think i see the reason why my attitude regarding those styles seems not exactly clear for you, let alone others. So i do not have and didn't have complaints, thus how everything will be solved (this way or that way) is not my business, that is, i don't insist that this or that must be solved in this or that way. So i close my questions - you have answered them, and now i'll simply comment few things, as if responding to your "if you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know!".
  • Banners. I don't trust admin team and don't care about their competence because i'm perfectly competent myself to judge about technical and aesthetic qualities of banners, pictures, composition of them within text, aesthetics and composition of text with and without graphics, value of templates, how and why templates make impact on general appearance, and how details and specifics of formatting of both text and images make impact on the whole, that is, on general appearance of the page; also what is primary and secondary for the guide and how it fit or don't fit policy and guidelines. So, first of all, criteria provided at banner upload page are pretty sane, or normal if you like. I know that my banners meet all requirements and know why they do, and why there may be some doubts at some points - this is because for some particular places it is very difficult to find a proper source to create the banner, the sources (photos, that is) are scarce and i know that they are scarce and why. I, to be honest, do not need advices in this respect; my questions about banners were triggered by my bad experiences and distrust. Which turned out to be sane tactics. So i don't know - do you experience some confusions with users who make banners? That is, are there cases when they make wrong or inappropriate banners? I can say that initially, when banners were just introduced (not so long ago), i experienced one inconvenience, asked at Pub twice and received the reply of admin once, reply was off-topic and useless. By that time there were only few banners, now there are many but the question is still relevent to some extent: where are they? I don't talk about pages - where are the banners stored? I store my banners among my uploads at WT Shared. The point is that it is very useful to have a possibility to see them all (created by others) at one glance. When you see them all (like google search images, for example) you can judge about both whole and details in all aspects: content, aesthetics, trend. You then can judge yourself what are the requirements, what is considered "nice" and "appropriate". So they must be already approved by admin team. This would be genuinely useful. Maybe it could be just display, while they could be stored where they are now.
  • Footnote vs blue-bold-clickable styles. You say "listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy" and I know why you do but you don'y know why i stubbornly don't want to accept that. At least i have such impression - do you see where the point is? In chronology and laziness. Did you check chronology and did you take into account human laziness? I now don't ask anything nor complain about something - i simply tell you in playfull manner what one can clearly see if he properly investigates the issue. I take into account that you are a new admin, i am newbie too so there are not so much differences in some aspects. So, initially there were only footnotes, it was not even a style but simply the "technical solution" or so. One option, one style. And all policy was written accordingly, there were neither confusions nor doubts nor misunderstandings in this respect because external links were supposed to be placed in those footnotes, sorry my english vocabulary is very limited, especially when it comes down to "technical" expressions, so please take that into account. Then, both WT community and admin team, found that the footnot style is visually annoying and practically inconvenient. Arguments were provided. Small discussion took place. No objections were raised. Aleksandra approved - but i have to say that i have no clue whether others were aware about this decision at all, i assume they are obliged to be aware but i think they simply silently accept such things and immediately forget. This is about 2012/2013, i also want to point out that your friend from Russia became admin later. So - i stress that - needful corrections on appropriate policy page were made. They still present. There is some pecularity: everything was designend, especially at "technical" point, that external links can be reached using footnotes, so if you want to make a blue-bold-clickable external link you have to do that manually. I don't know - maybe after recent upgrade this was improved? I don't see much difference, manually or not manually, simply when something works automatically it is more obvious. But this is secondary because the policy is primary. Changes in policy were made and requirements were described extremely clear, citation: "No footnotes. Travel guides do not use footnotes!". I was and am constantly pointing this requirement of policy because any other opinions are just private opinions and violate WT policy. Create a section of double standards or revert those changes or make other appropriate changes instead. It would be professional. Now it is a kindergarten. So, i continue about external links style. Here laziness comes into force: appropriate changes about style were made, having in mind that this applies to all external links. Now see - all policy is written in footnote style, to edit entire policy is a decent work, to say the least. So it was supposed that if policy has proper description about external link styles, it should be sufficient and everything else goes without saying. So let's see Listings page: humble change was made there too - "the URL for the official Web site for this listed entry. To display properly as a working, clickable hyperlink, either http:// or https:// must be included before the rest of the URL! (see external links for more guidelines)". Nothing special, one should see what kind of edit was made at 18:27, 15 March 2013 right after changing the Style Policy - very minimal correction, editor had in mind that the new style policy applies and this goes without saying. Isn't all that sufficient and doesn't it go without saying? Now the new admin comes. Indeed, why it should go without saying, all policy is written in footnote style, all articles have footnote styles, so what should here go without saying? In my oppinion, here should go without saying that admin team can't be a kindergarten, and that private opinions are not even secondary - they are nothing. And i indeed lost my temper during that silly conversation with your russian friend. I had idea to improve some articles of RU WT, but now not interested. So I continue. Blue-bold-clicable style was some sort of novelty, having in mind that all articles will be gradually changed from footnote style to blue-bold-clickable style. So both styles coexist, but since all texts are experiencing edits from time to time, it was expected that all footnotes will be smoothly replaced with blue-bold-clickable links. Like you pointed out - "many pages will need re-editing" LOL. Are you aware what you are re-editing and why? If you have professional approach, relax first, make appropriate changes in policy, then act according to the policy. Your choice what and how to edit in policy, but i have to say that if your coworkers didn't explain everything what i have told you here - this is not admin team, it's a kindergarten. Local (talk) 08:41, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
Hi Local! Glad you stayed around to discuss this with me further. The admin team is a group of one the hardest working people that I know and although you may disagree, I know that they are doing their best. We may have had some miscommunication here and there, but please don't blame them. I assure you that from here and on we will all be on the same page. I sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for all the stress Wikitravel has caused you so far. As I've stated before, the admin team and I will need to thoroughly re-vist some of the policies and edit them accordingly so please be patient with us :) I will be sure to take your suggestions/comments and keep them at the top of my mind! Especially having the option to view all the banners made by users in one glance (That's a great idea!) I do however, still stand by my external link format that I've stated earlier. I'm glad that you find my reasoning for them crystal clear. Should you choose to accept them, I hope that you will continue to stick around to make contributions and edits to Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 12:42, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
As some of the edits that are mentioned above were done so long ago, it is hard to remember all details. I would just like to add something about the changing of banners (and other information). Usually if you see incorrect information, everyone here is entitled to change information, as long as you put a reason in the comment field, so all understand why something was removed/changed. With the banners, many people spent a lot of time finding pictures and uploading them, so just changing a banner because you don´t like a picture we don´t do, we try to discuss first on the discussion page of the article, in order to respect all editors here. Obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion. We always try to answer any questions asked by users, at times questions are not seen due to high amount of spam, some edits are auto patrolled and only seen later etc etc, so if you don´t get an answer somewhere, feel free to send a message to a user or admin directly, that usually works. The external link discussion has been going on for a while, mainly because the "add listing" format comes up with the footnote style and it could not be changed at the time of discussion (tech issue). There were other priorities to focus on, and to be honest, my priority has been content, and when editing a page and I notice something totally against our policies I will change it. That´s why it is so great to have so many editors here, one looks specifically at the policies, one looks at content, another looks at pictures etc etc. Since the latest upgrade there is much less spam so all of us will have more time to look at the details, on the EN version and on the language versions too. Participating here is not meant to be stressful, enjoy it, we all work together on this great project. Adzas (talk) 09:45, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks Adzas for your matter-of-fact comment, there is nothing to disagree with, it all goes without saying, so to say. You told some totally new things that i didn't know. This guide (WT) is rather widely used, i know that from some travel forums, and from those forums i discovered that source of some misleading info comes from WT (there may be more sources of course). So basically i'm interested in content too, and one of annoying things was that admins revert correct content to outdated content and provide explanations (different in different cases), and those explanations always are statement that this edit is totally against policies. I don't want to focus now on this (it's endless), i'd like to clearify those new to me things in more detail, say, some things about those banners. This is quite handy example. Your statement: "obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion." . So this is a case, this is what i wanted to do. To me no discussion is needed, just i expect that admin will come and revert it, stating that my "knowledge" is wrong because he knows better (or so, i'm simplifying). So, to prevent that, i posted simple question, something like "this one is wrong" and "let me know if i can replace it with the right one" (actual coment was longer). That is, i wanted and still want to reach agreement before i make any move, no discussion is needed. It was rather long ago indeed, i stopped editing because i don't know how to behave with those wrong banners. Wrong by content, not because i didn't like it. It was admin who didn't like correct one. So, as you see, it's such a simple thing and everyting turns into such a mess because there is no clear guidance what to do in case of mistakes. That option "if you want to update the banner", well, it is more relevant to photos that illustrate the text, while banner is more for representation, but yes, this option is usefull, but it does imply that existing banner is still correct, still represents the article, and may be replaced with simillarly correct one but with more qualities etc. While wrong content, incorrect location is a different thing. I assume it's a rare exception. Maybe even hardly possible. But still. If this is some obscure station (like in other discussion above) i agree that this is not very relevant but why not to replace it if you can make a correct one... and besides, this would be professional approach. But i talk about panoramic landscapes, manors, castles - i agree with you in all details, that is, that such banner should be replaced, but how one can do that if policy does not explain how and whether this is allowed? Once it's absent in policy - it goes without saying that this is not allowed. I assume(d), this is a prerogative of admin team. It would be quite normal. Editing is editing, adding new text or images is still editing, but mistakes left because of lack of knowledge, competence, by mistake, intentionally is a different thing, it's not always clear that and whether this is an actual mistake (otherwise it would not be left). So it would be normal if admin team has prerogative to deal with all obscure mistakes of content that occur. My attempt to clearify that ended in stern silence. Long or not long ago, it's secondary - it could be many more recent misunderstandings that ended in silence, just i got fed up. Now summer ended, i decided to try to clearify some things. So who can correct mistakes, like in case with those banners? Anyone? Or admin team? Or anyone can report to admin team and they will take care? I don't ask to answer, i'd like to see what policy says :) . Maybe there is some explanation, i could miss it, that's quite possible. I just want to add about that what is "obvious", like in your saying about banners with incorrect locations - there were many obvious things to me, but when admin says that for him it's obvious that he's right and i'm wrong and provide arguments that illustrate certain gap in his certain knowledge - what one should do then? This turns your reasonable advice to behave reasonably and sanely into impasse. And that is what wasted majority of my time on WT. Local (talk) 15:59, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Admin issues Local, I can't speak to any other admins but I am an admin here and I am not affiliated with Internet Brands. If you feel like someone did something wrong or that you simply don't understand, you can of course contact him directly or if you want an outside perspective, you can ask me. I'm glad you're here and have been here for awhile--I hope you want to continue contributing. If you'd like, you can send me an email. Koavf (talk) 16:08, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Thanks again for your input Local. Sorry you feel your time is wasted here, we appreciate anyone´s input and edits. For future edits, just plunge forward, also with banners. We are all human, we can all make mistakes, admin on this site too, so as Koavf says, if you feel you are not getting a response or the incorrect response or there are doubts, contact an admin directly. We are looking forward to further edits from you! Adzas (talk) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Wait, wait, i assume there is no policy that allows to "contact directly", no? It's a bit anecdotically but i was reading "Plunge forward" policy a minute ago and guessing what does this mean: "Ignoring authority....Don't bother asking...". Maybe there is no doubts for you, but policy tells quite different... LOL .. I'll better wait for the updated policy version and see. If won't die until that LOL.. Local (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
You are always welcome to contact an admin directly as Koavf and Adzas have suggested. But yes! Please do stick around for some updates and we hope it's to your liking :) Cheers! IBkataoka (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
IBkataoka, thanks for your polineness and good will, I appreciate it, but clarity in our "semi-private" conversation is not a policy; i'm now starting to suspect that i was wrong thinking that admin team should act more reasonably - how and why to act reasonably if policy is a mess... LOL Local (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
This project has been running pretty well since 2003 with the policies/guidelines that are currently in place. Times change so policies/guidelines could be updated where necessary, but I don´t think they are a mess, sorry again you feel that way. As IBkataoka says, some updates are looked at so probably best to take it from there. Happy editing! Adzas (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Evil website wants to steal your content[edit]

The evil website that started with stolen content wants to steal even more content. I cannot link because of the filter, but you know which website I am talking about. —The preceding comment was added by 62.212.73.246 (talkcontribs)

Fork The content forked to another site is totally within the bounds of the license that Evan and Maj chose for this project. 62.212.73.246, there is nothing "evil" about reproducing it (and building upon it as well)--it's part of the purpose of Wikitravel/voyage. Koavf (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
I wouldn't say duplicating this site is "Evil", just pointless—The preceding comment was added by 109.156.38.138 (talkcontribs)

External links to printable PDF maps[edit]

I would like to add links to printable maps I created on Inkatlas (example), but it seems like this is against the current External Links policy. I think a free, detailed, up to date printable atlas is something that's very useful to travellers. There is no way to include this external content in Wikitravel itself. Are such links, in fact, against the policy? If so, can an exception/change be made? Full disclosure: inkatlas.com is a project I'm working on in my spare time. Kontextify (talk) 10:57, 14 October 2016 (EDT)

Hi Kontextify, thanks for expressing your concern! I agree with you, a map is an important tool to travellers. However, external links such as yours have been reverted because it requires a user to go to your page and download the map in a PDF format. Popular pages such as Manhattan and San Francisco already have maps displayed within the pages that users can refer to. We do appreciate you looking out for fellow travelers though! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:21, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
I do appreciate the maps already included in articles, but I find they're often too small or not detailed enough to serve as a proper paper map of a place. Would it not be useful to link to a detailed printable map in addition to having the embedded ones? For example, articles about national parks and similar destinations can have links to printable maps with trails and terrain data (useful for hiking). Unfortunately, there seems to be no way of adding the PDF directly to Wikitravel. Kontextify (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
Adding files In fact, these maps are made from OpenStreetMap data, which we can add to Shared. The licensing is not a problem. Koavf (talk) 22:05, 17 October 2016 (EDT)

Destination of the Month[edit]

The end of the month is right around the corner, which calls for a new Destination of the Month! If you have any suggestions on where it should be for the month of November, be sure to stop by the Destination of the Month page and nominate a place! Cheers :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 19:41, 20 October 2016 (EDT)

North America In the United States, it is Thanksgiving season, so something related to our colonial history or the harvest would be appropriate. Additionally, it's autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, so somewhere that has beautiful vistas for seeing the leaves change could be good. Alternately, we could go the exact opposite route and encourage our Northerner readers to hit the beaches of New Zealand or Tuvalu... Koavf (talk) 21:21, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
That's a good idea Koavf! Do you know of any nice places in particular? --IBkataoka (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
User:IBkataoka Not off-hand. Of course, the trick is that we would need to have a germane destination that also has high-quality content here. Koavf (talk) 23:00, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
Agreed, Koavf. I'll have to do some digging and researching then :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2016 (EDT)
I don´t know the area too well, but I remember the beautiful colours of the leaves this time of year in New England, maybe pick a location there? No beautiful leave colours but Portugal is also still nice to visit in November. More chance of rain but overall still lovely temperatures and sunny days. Adzas (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2016 (EDT)
Awesome, thanks for your input Adzas! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2016 (EDT)

Upcoming Holiday Travels[edit]

With some of our favorite holidays coming up, what are some of the best places to visit around Christmas and the New Year? Or maybe even to escape the holidays? I'm open to any suggestions! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2016 (EST)

It's usually so expensive to travel during those months but If I had a choice (as a person from california) I would go to Australia to escape the winter weather! Tyen (talk) 14:40, 15 November 2016 (EST)
If it's to escape the cold weather the in-vogue place to go is definitely Tatooine. Great beaches, awesome bar scene and locals who can get you anything your heart desires. Ibrshao (talk)
If you like snow: Michigan is great for the holidays. You can have a small town vibe, but with cultured cities all around. If you don't: The Florida Gulf Coast stays toasty throughout the early winter, and is pretty inexpensive.IBJoel (talk) 14:46, 15 November 2016 (EST)
There are beaches in Tatooine Ibrshao? I must go then. Michigan hmmm sounds a bit too cold for me, but maybe Miami for Christmas or as Tyen suggested, Australia! I've always wanted to go to Brisbane. --IBkataoka (talk) 14:50, 15 November 2016 (EST)
If you like snow and Europe, the Alps are the best choice. France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, there are dozens of places where you can enjoy skiing surrounded by beautiful mountains. If you want to escape the winter freeze and you still like Europe, I'd say that Andalusia in Spain or Sicily in Italy are both great destinations. Many Europeans choose capital cities to celebrate New Year's but they can be very expensive. GiulioC (talk) 03:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
Hong Kong definitely is one of the best places to be in during Christmas/New Year season: awesome parties, all kinds of carnivals/shows, great shopping opportunities, and the food (some of the best food I've ever tasted). You will never forget your New Year vacation there! So, go to Hong Kong and party hard! --Binbin (talk) 08:51, 17 November 2016 (EST)
Hong Kong sure sounds like fun! Maybe I'll have to plan a trip there. But Switzerland is also great. I've traveled to there before and fell in love with the snow! Decisions, decisions... --IBkataoka (talk) 14:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)

We should revive/do a piece on the European Christmas markets...? Do a Google search for Wikitravel Christmas Market and a ton of our existing articles show up that we could link to. Maybe create a TOUR that includes the favorites? IBobi (talk) 20:41, 17 November 2016 (EST)

I was about to mention the Christmas markets, they have great markets in Germany, but here in Portugal we have some nice ones too, going to one tomorrow, lovely atmosphere, great entertainment for young and old. We have a nice article for Christmas Food, we could use a similar layout for a list of markets? Adzas (talk) 13:34, 19 November 2016 (EST)
Great! I say we get started on it then :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 18:08, 21 November 2016 (EST)
I´m happy to start something for the markets, any suggestions on the format or shall I do the food format? Adzas (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2016 (EST)
That'd be great Adzas! Any format you think would be best :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2016 (EST)
I created Christmas Markets for now, work in progress. The layout is there, so all can easily add their favourite market and picture. It does not have to be just Europe, but it´s a start, any further input is welcome! Adzas (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2016 (EST)
Work in progress still, I added some names and locations (tips from friends living in those places). I will add content but obviously feel free to jump in and make changes, add new locations. Germany is a popular location for those markets, lets see if we can add a few more different countries. Looking for some pictures now, will be uploaded shortly. Thanks all! Adzas (talk) 06:38, 1 December 2016 (EST)
Sounds great, thank you! I added the info about Switzerland, but I'll continue adding other info as well :) --IBkataoka (talk) 10:42, 1 December 2016 (EST)