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__NEWSECTIONLINK__ <!-- generates a "+"-Tab so we can easily add a new topic -->  
 
__NEWSECTIONLINK__ <!-- generates a "+"-Tab so we can easily add a new topic -->  
 
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
  
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
  
{{disclaimerbox|If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to that article.
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{{disclaimerbox|*If you have a question or suggestion about a ''particular'' article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to ''that'' article.
  
If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ Mediawiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
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*If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
  
If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.
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*If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.}}
 
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}}
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<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. '''three months''' after the last comment in that discussion) that could or should be moved to a [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|talk page]], please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
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* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page
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* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to the policy or expedition discussion page
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* A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
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* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to to where the main discussion took place.
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to '''[[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]]''' and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
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{{WikitravelDoc|collaboration}}
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[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
 
[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
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[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
 
[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
 
[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
 
[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
[[ko:Wikitravel:Travellers' pub]]
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[[ko:Wikitravel:사랑방]]
 
[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
 
[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
 
[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
 
[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
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[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
 
[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
 
[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
 
[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
----
 
  
==API?==
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==Wikitravel Upgrade==
 +
{{disclaimerbox|<big>'''Our site upgraded in June 2016!'''</big>
 +
<br>
 +
We're happy to announce that Wikitravel has been updated to the latest version of mediawiki. We'd appreciate any help to catch and fix any bugs resulting from the update! Simply report bugs [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Category:Tech_requests on our shared site].
  
I've resumed work on my [[Wikitravel:iTravelFree]] Android/iOS app - the next version will include Foursquare data as well as Wikitravel and Wikipedia - and its [http://itravelapp.appspot.com/map Wikitravel maps mash-up], and it occurred to me that some of the server-side stuff I do might be useful to others. In particular, I parse out Wikitravel pages into their constituent sections and listings, work out parent/child relationships using both breadcrumbs and internal links, convert addresses into lat/long coordinates, etc. It wouldn't be ''that'' much work for me to create a API that let developers access not just individual pages but individual sections and listings within pages, and the parent/child relationships between pages.
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Some of the new changes include:
 
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*an updated edit toolbar
But it wouldn't be a trivial job either. And if a bunch of people wanted to use it extensively, the bandwidth costs would quickly become nontrivial. (I'm using Google App Engine, which ain't cheap.) So would anyone out there be interested in such an API? And if so, would it be a Creative Commons terms-of-service violation to charge its users enough to defray my costs for it? [[User:Rezendi|Rezendi]] 16:34, 2 January 2012 (EST)
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*an updated user toolbar
 
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*notifications
: Although I think charging for the service would be entirely possible under the licence, I think the derived information would also be CC-BY-SA.  Arguably, it should be put back into the main guide.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 17:39, 2 January 2012 (EST)
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*table of contents on banners now have dropdowns with sub-sections
 
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*multimedia galleries on every page
==Spelling of [[Odisha]]/Orissa==
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*a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly
 
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*many small performance and efficiency changes
Hi, everyone. User Triseult has been editing every mention of the Indian state formerly known as Orissa to reflect a new official Indian government spelling. I appreciate his/her diligence but have doubts about his/her decision. We have not changed the spelling of [[Bangalore]] to Bengaluru, for example, because the latter spelling is still at least somewhat more common in English.
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}}
 
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I have started a thread in [[Talk:Odisha]] and invite your participation.
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All the best,
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[[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 05:21, 4 January 2012 (EST)
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== Tour listings - rules  ==
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Hello,
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I would like to find solution of one problem. I was trying to edit info about exploring [[Warsaw]] and information about tours was erased according to [http://wikitravel.org/en/Tour#Tour_listings]. I asked [[User:LtPowers]] to change back information because mentioned tours have got "'''value-added activity'''". Warsaw during WWII was destroyed in 90% and many interesting places are covered by modern buildings (eg.last pieces of Ghetto Wall). Whats more there is lack of book which describes Warsaw architecture in English. Thats why Wiki users should have access to erased information.
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: A better place for this discussion would be [[Wikitravel_talk:Activity_listings]], the talk page for the policy in question. Have a look at older discussions there too.
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: Please sign messages by typing four tildes( <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>); that adds date, time & your ID,like this: [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 05:53, 9 January 2012 (EST)
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:: I agree.  Users should have access to the information.  I suggest that you kindly put the information in Wikitravel.  It is a guide, then people will have the information.  We're here to provide open information, accessible and free.  Anyone can then use our free and open information on their site, for their tour, or for their personal information.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 06:32, 9 January 2012 (EST)
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:::Yes, perhaps this should be discussed at [[Wikitravel_talk:Activity_listings]], so please do raise your concerns and inquiry there if you wish. However do consider first if the tours being offered are something that requires the experienced and specialist guidance of someone such as that offered by the tour company. I note you have mentioned there is apparently a lack of readily available information, such as from a book. Please consider if a visitor to Warsaw can go and visit (or 'tour') these sites independently and without the support of guide services. If so then the Tour service is probably precluded from listing in the Wikitravel articles. Also of course have a good read of [[Wikitravel:Activity_listings|Activity listings]]. Consider what it is that the tours is offering. Does it offers something as a supplement to that a person would be able to sufficiently derive from a visit to the location on their own? Also consider if the tour operators are are a requisite to visit a certain area, this would include provisions where a guide is required by law or safety regulations of some kind, or where un-supervised access is denied without an official guide or supervisor.-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 06:38, 9 January 2012 (EST)
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== Outline status for travel topics ==
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I'm a bit confused about the layout requirements and status determination of travel topics. Maybe I'm looking on the wrong page, but it seems to me that travel topic outlines are different from destination outlines, in that they will apparently be deleted if not edited for a year. Looking at [[Wikitravel:Travel_topic_status]], it seems that that warning is the only template outline travel topics can bear. Why is that? In practice, some outline travel topics have been given a "normal" outline template (e.g. [[Rock climbing]]) while others have been tagged "usable" despite being fairly short (e.g. [[Round the world overland]]). I imagine this might also be the result of people trying to get rid of the deletion warning, and indeed it it would be strange to delete these topics.
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Now, I was trying to save [[windsurfing]] from deletion, but I'm unsure what that would require? There doesn't seem to be a set article template for such topics (and I would say that's a good thing), but what would it need to be usable and thus off the hook? Or should I give it just the standard outline status? [[User:Justme|Justme]] 06:39, 13 January 2012 (EST)
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: IMO this is why we have the vfd process.  We won't vote to delete an article that is being developed, or has travel content.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 06:01, 14 January 2012 (EST)
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::I get that, and I'm not worried that windsurfing will be deleted now, but the vfd is meant to evaluate individual cases, judging them based on policy and common practice. In principle, we try to develop articles without making use of the vdf. So that leaves my more general questions about why travel topic outlines are different from destination articles. If there's no explanation, I don't see why we wouldn't replace the "warning-this will be deleted if not edited for a year" template with the "normal" outline template. [[User:Justme|Justme]] 06:30, 14 January 2012 (EST)
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::: You can look at the development of the policy here, [[Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy#Incomplete travel topics and itineraries]].
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::: I kind of see your point.  I see this policy squarely aimed at "Visiting secondary sewage processing plants in Southern Europe with kids", type article, rather than a single sport or such.
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::: Practically, however, the threshold for being "usable" is quite low.  If the article is usable, then apply the usable template.  If it really is an outline (headings, introduction, and no travel content) then it deserves to be considered for vfd after a year.
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::: Despite of some of the comments on the vfd page, I think it is one of the most effective collaborations on the site.  It brings out the strongest arguments in content and policy, regularly rescues articles and images, and leads to policy development.  I don't think I've ever seen a vote that I'd consider removes useful travel content.
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::: Would you have contributed to the windsurfing article if it hadn't been there, or would it have been a content-less disaster for the next decade? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 23:09, 15 January 2012 (EST)
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::::Thank you for that link, Inas, it explains the rationale :-) Although I don't believe it's a proper policy for mainstream travel topics (like windsurfing or any other sport) I can see why it's been developed and how it is useful. When the usable threshold is quite low, it shouldn't be much of a problem. A final question again though (sorry), a writer is in principle free to choose headings, right? There's no template? Thanks! [[User:Justme|Justme]] 08:10, 16 January 2012 (EST)
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::::: Yes, the writer is in principle free to choose headings in a travel topic, however, there is a tendency to reuse existing headings where they fit, and use the imperative phrasing also.
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::::: I think there are an infinite amount of things that could become travel topics, and a finite set of contributors.  We generally don't create a travel topic articles in advance of a contribution.  Unfortunately, in my view, that contribution can be a non-contribution - with no travel content, and we still tend to keep the article.  An equivalent non-contribution in an existing article may well be removed.  I see travel topics as needing curating during their early days if they are going to be successful, and if they are created by a passer-by and no regular contributor steps up, they languish.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 17:09, 16 January 2012 (EST)
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==Navigation at the bottom?==
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Err.. am I the only one not seeing the sidebar, as it's placed all the way at the bottom of the page? [[User:Justme|Justme]] 14:12, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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: Incompatibility between latest firefox and this version of mediawiki.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 16:07, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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::Oh :-( thanks... [[User:Justme|Justme]] 18:42, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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::: I gave an explanation of this failure (Rendering failure with Firefox 9.0.1 above) and a solution some days ago. Nothing was done. The problem is to solved by IB. --[[User:Unger|Unger]] 09:15, 20 January 2012 (EST)
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::::Did you report it on Shared?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:57, 20 January 2012 (EST)
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:::::Appears this issue will resolve with the MW upgrade, which is in progress.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:08, 20 January 2012 (EST)
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Never resolved, but I just updated to Firefox 10.0 and WT appears normal again. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 15:48, 4 February 2012 (EST)
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== Wikitravel sucks ==
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So slow for the past couple of days.  A couple of attempts at editing, and then give up for the day.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 22:40, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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: Everything might be (possibly) fixed by the [[:shared:Tech:Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.17|Mediawiki upgrade]] scheduled for <s>September 2011</s> <s>November 2011</s> some time in 2012/2013.  In the mean time it seems frustration will be rampant... -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 22:56, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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::Investigating the performance issue -- thank you for reporting.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:10, 20 January 2012 (EST)
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:::Please report if there are still performance issues today; we had a bad crawler last week that may have slowed the site.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:04, 23 January 2012 (EST)
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::::I still get frequent delays loading pages, though it usually speeds up as my session goes on.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 16:56, 23 January 2012 (EST)
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== [[Wernigerode]] ==
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Please would someone peer review the [[Wernigerode]] article and let me know what is now essential to get it to guide standard. Many thanks in advance. --[[User:SaxonWarrior|SaxonWarrior]] 11:44, 21 January 2012 (EST)
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:I've upgraded it to usable from outline.  For guide status, the See, Do, Buy, Eat, Drink, and Sleep sections need summaries, and the listings need actual prices.  Drink listings need descriptions, and I'd also like to see the Sleep listings fleshed out more.  Museums should be in "See" rather than "Do".  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:01, 21 January 2012 (EST)
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::Thanks. I'll get to work. --[[User:SaxonWarrior|SaxonWarrior]] 03:32, 22 January 2012 (EST)
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== [[Saxon Ore Mountains]] ==
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The above article name is a bit of a fudge forced to fit the existing country/state hierarchy. The range is known as the Ore Mountains and straddles the German/Czech border, the highest point being on the Czech side. It is a major tourist magnet. IMHO we need an article on the [[Ore Mountains]], but it will be an extra-hierarchical region. Can we cope with that? --[[User:SaxonWarrior|SaxonWarrior]] 02:14, 25 January 2012 (EST)
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:Extra-hierarchical regions are fine, the [[Harz Mountains]] already function as an extra-hierarchical region. --[[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] 03:38, 25 January 2012 (EST)
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== Adequate attribution? ==
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I could swear I posted this here last night, but I can't find any trace of it...
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Anyway, just asking because I'm not sure, but is [http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/01/23/citizen-kane-to-be-shown-at-hearst-castle/ this use of our image] properly attributed? It makes no mention of the creative commons license, etc. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 15:57, 25 January 2012 (EST)
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== Today's outage ==
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We had an unplanned outage for several hours today due to a database malfunction. Site should now be behaving as normal; thank you for being patient while we resolved this.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:45, 25 January 2012 (EST)
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:Are you talking about these kinds of weird error messages, such as this one in the [[Kerch]] guide (the same one that was in the Johor Bahru guide before I did a hard edit to the previous version):
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The database did not find the text of a page that it should have found, named "(fixme, bug)".
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This is usually caused by following an outdated diff or history link to a page that has been deleted.
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If this is not the case, you may have found a bug in the software. Please report this to an administrator, making note of the URL.
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:[[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 04:21, 26 January 2012 (EST)
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::He's probably also referring to the "Wikitravel has a problem, try again in a few minutes" message that I got most of the day, yesterday. For the record, today the site seems to be very slow, but functioning. [[User:Justme|Justme]] 07:18, 26 January 2012 (EST)
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The site appears to have become so slow over the last few days that it is now virtually unusable. It is near impossible to load a page, preview and edit or render an edit upload. Whats happened, rats chewed into the cabling? -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 09:54, 16 February 2012 (EST)
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:::Hey Felix -- I'll have performance check with tech. Would you be interested in participating in the beta testing of the new Mediawiki upgrade?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 15:50, 16 February 2012 (EST)
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::::Hi iBobi, will I need to have any needles stuck into me or take any tablets? If not then let me know the details and lets see if I can assist by participating. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:08, 17 February 2012 (EST)
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:::::Just email me at paul.obrien at internetbrands.com and we'll get you fixed up with testing credentials.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:54, 17 February 2012 (EST)
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==Listings of individuals==
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Hi, everyone. I'd like you to weigh in on this. My understanding has been that we don't allow listings of individuals, such as individual language tutors, trekkers, guides, translators, or drivers. But I'd like to refer you to a discussion taking place in [[Talk:La Paz]] and another that I just started at [[Talk:Banaue]]. I think we need to have a clear and well-thought-through policy on these matters. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 06:20, 28 January 2012 (EST)
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: I think we these things we're guided by the number of potential listings, and the difficulty the traveller has in finding them.  If there is only one elephant driver in a town, and that's the only way to get from the station to the camp site apart from walking, then we list them.  Doesn't matter if they are an individual, or a franchise of Mega-Elephant.  If there are a few elephants, but the traveller needs to be able to contact them, and the method for doing so is not apparent, then may need to maintain a compact list of choices.  Style of listings, capacity of the organisation, traveller recommendations, etc, guide us in choosing who to list, but we'd rather list individuals than Elephant-Back-Travel booking office.  However, if there are many elephants such that they are ubiquitous, then we don't need to list.  A line of prose saying the elephants are outside the station, or some such suffices.
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: The bottom line is the traveller comes first.  We don't need to accept a business owners rationale.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 23:59, 28 January 2012 (EST)
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: The issue has also turned up at [[Talk:Yangshuo#Tour_Guides]]. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 10:10, 29 January 2012 (EST)
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== Cape Town Dive Festival 2012 ==
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Cape Town is hosting a dive festival in August. It is not on the same scale as the football world cup or summer Olympics, but we are hoping for visitors from all over South Africa, and possibly a few internationals. The festival is a co-operative event to be organised, subsidised, and run by most if not all of the local dive shops, charter boats and clubs. If successful, they plan to make it a bi-annual event. I would like to put up a temporary article giving basic details and contact details for booking and a small temporary banner on the following relevant articles:
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*The actual dive sites selected for the festival (about 12)
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*The launch site and base for the festival (one of the local slipways and already a sub-article of the regional dive guide
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*The regional dive guide,
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*The national dive guide
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*Scuba Diving travel topic in the section for South Africa
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*The local regional travel guide (Western Cape)
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*The host city (Cape Town)
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The proposed banner is:
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<div style="width:95%; float:center; border: none; margin: 1em 0 0 1em; padding: 2em;">
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{| cellpadding=5 cellspacing=1 border=0
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|-
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|align=left width=100% style="background-color:#c0ffff; border:4px solid blue; text-align: center; color: navy; padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em" |
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'''[[Cape Town Dive Festival]]'''<br>11th & 12th August, 2012<br>Launching from<br>[[Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Miller's Point slipway|Cape Boat Club, Miller's Point, Simon’s Town]]<br>'''''Festival Dive Site'''''
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|}
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</div>
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Is this acceptable, and are there any suggestions or existing policy to cover this?
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Cheers, &bull; &bull; &bull; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 11:07, 31 January 2012 (EST)
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:I'm reluctant to approve a banner for a national event like this.  This is not a major international event, so it is not going to be driving tourism; instead, it sounds like you want to advertise it via Wikitravel.  There's a big difference between "Looking for information on the 2012 Olympics?  Here's where it's held," and "Looking for something to do in South Africa?  Here's an event."  I don't think the latter is an appropriate use, especially for an event that will only draw minimal participation from outside the host country.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:47, 31 January 2012 (EST)
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:: A standard event listing in the appropriate city/country article would definitely be OK, but too much promotion would be a concern.  That said, given all the great work that [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] has done on dive articles I'd trust his judgement as to whether Wikitravel is a proper platform for promoting an event like this one, but I've got some concerns that it could be a bit of a slippery slope, and the proposed banner definitely looks a bit like an advertisement.
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:: Wikitravel tends to be very conservative, which isn't always a good thing, so this might be a time where some experimentation would be warranted to see how it goes.  In that spirit, I would be OK with adding temporary notices to the relevant dive articles provided they are a bit closer to standard Wikitravel style (for example, something more like [[Template:Infobox]]).  As to a separate page promoting the event, I've also got some concerns about the precedent that would set, but in the interest of encouraging experimentation what about creating an initial page for discussion purposes and seeing how it goes, although the talk page should make it clear that this is just an experiment and not something should be followed as precedent by other events? -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 01:14, 1 February 2012 (EST)
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:::LtPowers, I take your point. It would be a foot in the door for possible spamming, so I will scrap the idea and just link to the pages from the event website.
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:::Ryan, Thanks for the support, but it is a bit of a slippery slope. I have been editing a lot on Wikipedia recently and tend to get policies mixed up between WT and WP. No problem, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. Cheers, &bull; &bull; &bull; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 01:06, 8 February 2012 (EST)
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::::I don't think a banner such as the one for Olympic host cities would be inappropriate on the main page of the South African Diving Sites article though. If someone is looking for Diving in South Africa then it would likely be of interest but not from the South Africa country page. [[User:ChubbyWimbus|ChubbyWimbus]] 10:03, 16 February 2012 (EST)
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==Seeraa, the user and the Chinese website==
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Hi, everyone. I would like you to please read the exchange at [[User_talk:Seeraa]] and also have a look at [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/Seeraa] and [http://www.seeraa.com/]. User Seeraa is some informative edits (unless they are copyvio, and except where they're merely added links to the seeraa portal), and I don't want to chase him/her away, but if the website in question really is in any sense official, why does [http://www.seeraa.com/about-seeraa/] not mention that? How should we handle this situation? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 03:58, 3 February 2012 (EST)
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: Ikan, their homepage say they are a non-profit organisation. I think their [[xl]] linking to diverse places like Lhasa and Hangzhou looks a bit touty for me. I accept if they work in their knowledge into Wikitravel but the linking is to much. Especially in political sensitive cases like Tibet imho their link can't stay. [[User:Jc8136|Jc8136]] 04:06, 3 February 2012 (EST)
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== [[Cameron Highlands]] Tour providers ==
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::I would appreciate a second (or third) opinion on the comments I have left on the [[Cameron Highlands]] [[Talk:Cameron Highlands#Tours in the Do section|discussion]] page. Thanks. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 06:33, 5 February 2012 (EST)
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== General aviation ==
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I'm wondering about [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Atlanta&diff=1826626&oldid=1826621 this edit], which reverts what an anonymous user had added about general aviation airports near Atlanta, with no explanation given. I couldn't find any WT policy on general aviation, but I thought it was generally not excluded. I've certainly seen it mentioned in a lot of other articles. -- [[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 09:43, 10 February 2012 (EST)
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:You'd have to ask [[User:Dguillaime]] to be sure, but looking at the IP's previous edits, it appears the reason for the reversion was to eliminate the spamming of the link to "Jetset Charter", rather than any particular antipathy toward general aviation.  To the larger question, general aviation is certainly a valid topic for our guides, though only the most significant GA airports in a given region should be listed.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 10:13, 10 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:: The company in question has been copying and pasting the same text to numerous articles, so had [[User:Dguillaime]] not done so I would have also reverted them under the [[Wikitravel:Don't tout]] guideline.  There was a similar discussion about listings for private jets in the [[USA]] article at [[Talk:United States of America/Archive 2007#Private jets?]] and the consensus was that it didn't make sense in that article, and I feel that the same holds true for articles like [[Los Angeles]] or [[Atlanta]] where private charters aren't something that's relevant to 99.999% of travelers.  However, for cities with small airports like [[Santa Monica]] where the major airlines do not operate then listing smaller operators might make sense - that assumes that the company in question actually operates the planes and isn't just a booking agent. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 11:12, 10 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::: Yes, the spamming of the company link was why I reverted those.  You'll see more instances of that in the edit history for that IP address, for other cities, and never with any contact information for that company besides the link. -- [[User:Dguillaime|D. Guillaime]] 11:38, 10 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Beta testing Mediawiki 1.17 upgrade ==
+
 
+
Having addressed the first round of bug reports from the Mediawiki upgrade beta test server, we're currently underway on a final round of testing before the new version of Wikitravel goes live in a few weeks. We'd love to have your input, so if you are interested in participating in the beta, email me at paul.obrien at internetbrands.com for testing credentials and instructions. Thanks!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:55, 21 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:Nice to hear that it's coming along :-) Just a question though.. why not upgrade to the latest version? 1.18 has been released a while back already and Wikipedia in fact is deploying even 1.19 this week. Isn't it strange to start with a backlog? [[User:Justme|Justme]] 06:22, 22 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::It would be great to upgrade to the most recent version; but as you can see, they release small updates quite frequently, and upgrading a site as big as WT is a long process -- one that began prior to the release of 1.18 in November -- thus, we're finishing the upgrade to the version that was out at the time, 1.17. At any rate, it will not be as long between upgrades as it has been since the last one.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:40, 22 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==Integrating as a Wikimedia project==
+
This does not seem to have been brought up in a long time. I believe that integrating would be positive for all involved
+
*Would provide a secure funding base and reduce the need for google ads which take up so much of my screen
+
*Potentially increase editors as no google ads
+
*Would make it easier for the two sites to direct people adding content to the better place
+
*Would make Wikitravel better known (lots of great content here in a useful format)
+
*Would thus speed up the development of the project
+
*Potentially increased reliability (I am having trouble viewing this site right now)
+
I cannot really think of any drawbacks. Wikimedia projects are now under the same license is here.
+
--[[User:Doc James|Doc James]] 10:25, 23 February 2012 (EST)
+
: If [[Wikitravel:Internet Brands]] was interested in moving the site to Wikimedia management I suspect many people would be in support, but since they own the trademarks it would be up to them to make that decision (hopefully [[User:IBobi]] or someone from IB can provide their position).  Moving to Wikimedia without their blessing, and without trademarks, would essentially mean forking the project, and while that's entirely legal since all content is CC-SA licensed, using Wikitravel to have that discussion might not be entirely appropriate. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:19, 24 February 2012 (EST)
+
::Furthermore, if ads are an issue, registered users can turn ads off in their site preferences.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:59, 24 February 2012 (EST)
+
:::Yes I realize that those within the Wikimedia movement are free to take all the content here and put it under their own "name" as the content is CC just as those here are free to do the same with Wikipedia. I do not think splitting the editor base however is best for the content in question / open source movement. We already have too much duplication of efforts in other areas. I thought I would post the idea here to see if those here had any interest in collaborating more closely. I sit on the board of Wikimedia Canada and could bring this forwards to the WMF if there was interest. Good to know about the ads Lt.[[User:Doc James|Doc James]] 07:41, 25 February 2012 (EST)
+
::::Internet Brands, which owns the Wikitravel trademark, is a commercial entity looking to make money off this site, and I can't imagine any situation in which they would be supportive of this plan, regardless of potential benefits to the Wikitravel project and community. Otherwise, what Ryan said ;) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 22:08, 25 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Outage ==
+
 
+
Wikitravel was down for a while this morning due to an unscheduled data backup. If you see any unusual performance issues today, please let me know. Thank you --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:11, 23 February 2012 (EST)
+
:Site is going down for a few minutes for DB maintenance. Thanks --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:16, 23 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==Archiving the contents of user talk pages==
+
 
+
Have a look at this history: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:FortMyersResort&action=history
+
 
+
and this discussion: http://wikitravel.org/en/User_talk:Ikan_Kekek#Personal_Talk_Page_Edits
+
 
+
I think the idea that someone can remove all content from their user talk page and put it in an archive, especially when the content is not even a month old, is absurd. What is your opinion about this? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 02:22, 27 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:Why do you feel it is absurd?  Obviously, the archive ought to be linked from the talk page, but as long as that is done, I don't see the problem.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:03, 27 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::First, I didn't see a link. Second, there has to be a minimum amount of time before it makes sense to archive discussion, especially when the discussion consisted of two posts by others telling the user in question not to tout. Do you really think it makes sense to archive discussion in user talk pages that's less than a month old? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 14:05, 27 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:::Plenty of policy discussions about this, without much consensus, but with a fairly strict status quo practice of letting users do almost whatever they want with their own userspace. ''Guidance'' for users is at [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Etiquette]], but etiquette is not something policed. We do have a consensus to [[Wikitravel:Deletion_policy#Deleting_articles_in_personal_namespaces|remove content from non-contributing users talk pages]], and remove some extreme content (especially hate speech, promotion of illegal activities like prostitution, or threats). But we [[Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy|have not been able to build a consensus]] to police users' removal of good faith comments by other Wikitravellers (I think we should). For archiving, though, I think we shouldn't get too much in the business of policing userspace.
+
 
+
:::FWIW, I would support adding a note to the etiquette section, noting that it's best to wait until the page has grown long before archiving, and that such archives be clearly linked from the user's main talk page, so that everything is easy to find.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:55, 28 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Outage today ==
+
 
+
There were a few hours today when the site was flapping up and down; it seems very stable now, but please report if you see any localized outages or ongoing issues with stability or access. Thanks!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:00, 1 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:Seems like it's back to its normal level of suck.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:28, 1 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Booking tool & ad policy discussion ==
+
 
+
Please take a look at the proposed changes to ad policy and the general Booking Tool discussion taking place over the last couple of weeks -- and years -- over on Shared http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Add_booking_tool_to_WT. As we approach implementation time on the booking tool as well as the Mediawiki upgrade, we'll be soliciting more feedback on look and feel as well, etc.
+
 
+
Also, if anyone is interested in participating in the ongoing Beta test of the Mediwiki upgrade, please contact me for credentials. Thank you.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:17, 5 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Maintenance window ==
+
 
+
Hi all: we are going to require a ~30 minute maintenance window for the DB, starting in a few minutes, FYI. Site should be back up shortly thereafter. Thank you,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:51, 6 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Database upgrade complete ==
+
 
+
If you noticed many pages down this morning, it was due to the massive database upgrade we just completed. You should be seeing improved performance along with few to no errors when viewing, editing or posting content to Wikitravel.
+
 
+
If you see site weirdness, pages missing, error messages, or generally anything else that could come from a DB upgrade, please let me know.
+
 
+
Next steps are the MW upgrade and Booking Tool! Thanks,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:18, 7 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Wikitravel suggestion ==
+
 
+
I've been on the search for a good video travel guide and I'm not sure if wikitravel would be for or oppose the idea of making a universal video guide as well. Thoughts?--[[User:themarcophoto]] 04:49, 11 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
: Videos are discouraged per [[:shared:Image policy#Other media|the image policy]].  If you see a strong reason for allowing videos you can make the case on that article's talk page. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 12:45, 11 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Password ==
+
:Query: where do I go when I have forgotten my password?
+
:I will sign with my IP I guess..
+
:--[[User:81.68.73.34|81.68.73.34]] 15:17, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:: Others may know better, but I'm not sure that this version of Mediawiki provides that capability (I don't see anything on [[Special:Specialpages]] and there is no Special:PasswordReset page).  Your best option may be to just create a new account and leave a note on the user page indicating that you're the same user as whatever your old login was.  Alternately, IB will (hopefully) complete a Mediawiki upgrade in the coming month(s) that will enable the password reset page. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 12:55, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::On the login screen, there's a button that will send your password to the e-mail address specified in your preferences.  If you didn't specify an e-mail address, you may be out of luck.  It seems like there ought to be something a bureaucrat could do, but I don't know what that is.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:45, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::If that doesn't work, let me know. I do not have access to passwords, but I may be able to bend tech's ear about it; obviously we want established members to retain access to their existing accounts.
+
 
+
::::Incidentally, the MW upgrade Ryan refers to SHOULD (should) be live this week!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:18, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Outage ==
+
 
+
We were down for about an hour. Back now and all is well.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 14 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== How long to update a revision so it appears in the browser? ==
+
 
+
Having just spent a number of hours revising, correcting, updating, adding or clarifying links for the Quime, Bolivia page I try and load it (after updating in Mozilla and IE) and it has reverted back to the original. I wonder if it just takes awhile for the moderators to approve the revision, if so how long? If it does take awhile for revision approval, maybe it could be posted in the FAQ so revisionists don´t get freaked out. If it  has reverted, well I don´t understand why and am maybe a bit upset having wasted a few hours since IMO I improved and updated the page.
+
 
+
:Look here - http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Quime&curid=80685&diff=1842732&oldid=1825508 - at the editing comment and read the links I provided for you to understand why most of your edits to that page have been deleted. I'm sorry you feel like good work went down the drain. I appreciate your attitude, but you need to read the links I gave, and also [[tour]], which is in part relevant to the reversion of your edits to the "Contact" section. Also, please sign talk pages by typing 4 tildes in a row before pressing the enter key. Thanks. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 19:38, 16 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Lansing ==
+
 
+
Anyone else think [[Lansing (Michigan)]] meets our "much more famous" criterion and ought to be at [[Lansing]]?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 19:30, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: As the capital of Michigan I think it qualifies since [[Lansing (Illinois)]] is just a small village. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 19:37, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Other guide books ==
+
 
+
I was just wondering if we could start adressing physical guide books. We could for example that we just state which books cover that general area etc... Is this something that would be helpful? We could also just say something about wether that book felt up to date or not...
+
 
+
[[User:Ptrk|Ptrk]] 13:36, 22 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: [[Wikitravel:External links]] deals with this topic (short summary: references to other guides, either book or URL, are discouraged).  That article's talk page has lengthy discussions explaining why this was done, proposals for change, etc. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:39, 22 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Amazon wikitravel books ==
+
 
+
See thread here. [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Talk:Copyleft#Violating_books_on_Amazon_.28I_think.29] [[User:81.141.31.216|81.141.31.216]] 17:07, 22 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== iTravelFree is dead; long live WikiSherpa ==
+
 
+
A quick note: I've renamed my Android/iOS Wikitravel app from iTravelFree to [[Wikitravel:WikiSherpa]], mostly due to an irritating trademark dispute (don't ask.) Of greater interest to most is that, thanks to ever-cheapening bandwidth, it's now possible to download a complete offline snapshot of Wikitravel, and all associated Wikipedia pages, on the free version of the app. (The only difference between the free and paid version now is that the latter is ad-free; the income covers my bandwidth and [http://developers.google.com/appengine/ App Engine] costs.) Enjoy! And, as ever, any comments or suggestions are most welcome. [[User:Rezendi|Rezendi]] 08:03, 31 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Cool, I'll check it out and let you know how things are working ;)  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:13, 31 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Thanks for the app, dude, it's really helpful! I'm traveling now in south america and use your app every day. <small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:190.234.100.117|190.234.100.117]] ([[User_talk:190.234.100.117|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/190.234.100.117|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
+
 
+
: Very cool. I was using it on the weekend and being able to read WT while offline (no cell coverage) was very handy. - [[User:Shaund|Shaund]] 20:42, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==Credits?==
+
 
+
At what point did the credits ([http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=N%27Djamena&action=credits example]) cease to be displayed at the bottom of Wikitravel articles? I always thought being able to see who had been working on the article recently was pretty cool (in addition to being an exemplary way of showing attribution). Without this feature—even so much as a link to it—we are no longer keeping our promise to attribute users' real names, for those who have chosen said manner of attribution.
+
 
+
Did we have a discussion about this, or did IB just unilaterally change the way we attribute users' work?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 04:27, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:I'll look into it-- I know it was not a conscious decision, because we'd have discussed it with the community. May just be a glitch. Any idea how long it's been like that?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:OK, here is the 411 on attributions: the feature is recommended "OFF" by Mediawiki. We switched it off (sorry -- this did not come down through channels to me) and that was the major factor in improving the site's performance and speed last month. So, once the MW upgrade is live and stable, we can always try turning it on again, and see how it affects performance & decide if the hit is worth having the attributions.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:23, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::That makes sense, and site performance should be a top priority (It's taking just forever to post this message). I'll note, though, that this really is essential information to discuss with the community. Not even notifying us is a pretty huge misstep (not hurling this at you personally). I do think we should restore at least a link to the credits section of each article, though, e.g., '''Please see the [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers'_pub&action=credits "article credits"] for author attribution.''' And I should point out that that link is generating a database error right now...  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::I wonder if we could use javascript to hide the credits until the reader clicks the "[show]" button.  Or if reducing the number of authors shown by default would improve performance.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 20:11, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
+
:::: We probably could, but What about users who (sensibly in my view) disable javascript for security reasons? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:03, 14 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::: Sadly, I'm not well versed in the technical details, so I don't know if they'd see the credits by default or wouldn't see them at all.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:43, 15 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::: If the goal was to reduce performance impact the credits would not be seen by someone who did not have Javascript/Ajax enabled.  Note, however, that this change would require a custom solution be developed and implemented by IB, so it seems unlikely to happen. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:59, 15 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
Without speaking out of turn, I believe we'd have resources for something like that, as it does not sound like a huge deal. Right now we have two techs working on WM upgrade and the booking tool, and we have them specced to work on WT for quite a while after that's complete. Let's see how the MW update affects performance, turn attributions back on as-designed, and revisit.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 13:32, 16 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:We're working on a solution to get attributions back on the pages with minimal performance impact; however, if we need to turn them back on now we can. It will probably slow edits back down considerably, and maybe reads too. We just want to be as above-board as possible that we're going to resolve this one way or the other, attributions are going to return to and stay on Wikitravel, and our plan is to include them along with performance improvements under the new version of WM. But if the community prefers them to be on now, we can and will oblige without a problem. Fair enough?
+
 
+
== MediaWiki upgrade is in staging and ready for testing ==
+
 
+
There is now a version of WT with the Mediawiki upgrade, live at this URL:
+
 
+
http://staging.wikitravel.org/en/Main_Page
+
 
+
No credentials or password are needed to access this server. Just click through, poke around, and report any issues you find under BETA here:
+
  
http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17
+
== ideas for group travel, family that does not get together much ==
  
Testing this is critical to ensuring that the transition to the full new site is smooth. This will be happening very soon (weeks or sooner) and we're anxious to hear feedback. So please, go look.
+
Hi
 +
What a fabulous project! I cannot believe I never found this before.
 +
Some of my family wants to get together more often and we are trying to organize a group trip, 5 or so days, prepaid food options, lots of activities, and I don't think we care where we go but some need to keep the costs down.
 +
Most of the family is in the north east.
 +
Any one have suggestions about places to go, cruises to try, etc.
  
KNOWN ISSUES:
+
:Hi there! If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Vermont! It's beautiful there and relatively less costly than a lot of places in New England. [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
1. This is NOT the "real" Wikitravel site -- your updates won't carry over to the real site. This is just a testing environment for debugging; it will mimic the look & feel of the new site however.
+
Vermont is a great suggestion - especially during foliage. You can check out activities and tours in different locations at [http://www.placepass.com PlacePass.com] - should help you get inspired!
  
2. The article data you will see on this staging server are several months old. New edits will not appear. Don't panic -- all the data will of course appear when the real site is switched over.
+
:Hello! Ignore having family trips during Spring months March and April because of Spring Breakers. [[Cabo San Lucas]] has many beach hotels with cheap all-inclusive packages and fun water attractions for the kids. [[Puerto Peñasco]] aka Rocky Point has many affordable beach houses to rent. [[Catalina Island]] is chalk full of family visitors and easily noticeable activities all along the beach. I suggest renting a house or condo near the main city of [[Avalon]]. Catalina is my top preference for you because of the darling city and the family-friendly environment. [[User:IBrobin|IBrobin]] ([[User talk:IBrobin|talk]]) 16:12, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
3. Speed will be okay; not as fast as the full site, but not nearly as slow as the previous testing environment.
+
== Re: Appearance of external links / Front-Linked listings ==
  
Thank you,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:43, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
I am a new user and trying to find an answer to what I think is a simple question: What format should external links have? This is one of the most basic things that people would do in the wiki (adding links to sites) and yet I'm seeing an incongruity between formatting and policy. As it stands in the external links help page [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:External_links] we should add labels to web pages and I'm fine with that, but then when I use the code for listings (e.g. " < sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep > " ) it automatically goes back to footnotes and I can't seem to change it.
  
:FYI the staging server is now closed. The next step will be adding the booking tool and internally testing the site, then opening it up again on staging for the community to test before it goes live. This should happen in the next week.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:57, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
+
I would not bring this up if it was a recent issue but people have been talking about this (using / not using footnotes; replacing the number of the footnote with a nice icon [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web.2Femail_format]) since 2007 and yet the code is still doing its same old thing.
  
::Just a reminder—MediaWiki is the name of the software. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:53, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
+
As a new user, trying to add info to the site and then having to spend hours (trying to figure out what's going on with external links and why I can't get them to display in the way that I've been told to display them) seems very counter productive and demotivating. It makes me wonder how many other laymen have tried to make changes to pages and then just end up abandoning the whole thing cause guidelines don't match what's really going on and it all just takes to long to find an answer. Latest discussion I've seen about this, just makes it seem as if nothing is being changed and so what [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:External_links#Question_re:_External_link_format]
  
:::Thanks Peter -- think I reversed my MW and WM a couple times there.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:06, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
+
Similarly, the whole discussion about front linked listings has been going on since before 2005 [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:External_links/Archive#Front-Linked_listings] with no clear resolution in the primary guides (help file) on formatting (from what I can see, correct me if I'm wrong). Whilst I at first preferred front links for their aesthetic and simplicity, reading other people's counterpoints make it clear why front links aren't a good idea: As stated by Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT) [http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web.2Femail_format], he points out how some listings appear worse because they don't have hyperlinks or that having longer hyperlinks (thanks to the hyperlinked name being longer) would make them more likely to be clicked.
  
== The Article Al Riqqa ==
+
If icons were to be used (a nice globe icon, easily recognizable as world wide web) this wouldn't need to be a discussion and the points raised would be resolved, using footnotes does solve the issue but people also complain about the aesthetics of it etc. [[User:Rhetorical|Rhetorical]] ([[User talk:Rhetorical|talk]]) 14:17, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
I was reading through the page articles needing attention and Al Riqqa came across my mind. [[Al riqqa]] is a district in [[Dubai]], I suggest either we delete it and put all the information in Dubai or introduce distritification in the article so that Al Riqqa will be included.
+
  
-[[User:SnappyHip|SnappyHip]] 11:01, 14 April 2012 (PST)
+
== Cannot edit my own user page ==
  
== The way that "table of contents" is displayed ==
+
Hi I am trying to edit my user page while logged in. I have just created an account so that might be the issue.
 +
Error is "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Dark Tower"
 +
Is there anyway this can be fixed?
  
Hi guys.
+
--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 03:51, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
As a sysop of the French Wiktionary, I'm really interrested in the way ''tables of contents'' show up here.
+
: Hi Wandering Roman, thank you for reaching out here. I've added a test message on your user page just now. Seems okay to me. Can you please try again (please blank my test message) now and let us know if you still have this error? Thank you!  --[[User:Binbin|Binbin]] ([[User talk:Binbin|talk]]) 04:19, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
Would any contributor please help me to understand how it works ? --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 14:04, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
::Sorry to say that it is still happening. Though I think there is a problem with the back end of the site. Have a look at the Abuse Log and you will see other people are having similar problems. http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:AbuseLog
 +
::Thanks for your help. Its very fast.
  
:I believe [[User:Evan|Evan]] worked on it. He is no longer very active on this site, so best to contact him via his own website [http://evan.prodromou.name/Contact].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:10, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
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::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 04:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
::Thanks. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 16:40, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
==French Wikitravel==
+
I'm very concerned by the French version of this wiki : it seems that there is not anyone by there to ensure as a basic thing as ensuring that the pages about licenses describes the licence in the footnote. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 16:47, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
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:To my opinion, you should close Wikitravel in French, it is dead in all ways to think about it. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 16:52, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
  
:: There appears to still be active users on French Wikitravel, and [[:fr:User:Joelf]] is still active as an administrator. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 17:08, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
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:::Looking at the log more closely looks like it was miss-configured and that this has been a reoccurring problem since 2012, though in 2012 the problem was occurring under the filter named The Beaver. You may want to contact IBobi, the administrator to look at the filter list as from what I have read it can only be fixed by admin/bureaucrat groups on WikiTravel
:::Sure. In fact, when saying that, I was hoping someone would explain me I was wrong. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 20:42, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
  
==Pure grumbling==
+
:::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 04:52, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
I had the day off, and was looking forward to putting some real work into the New Orleans articles, but was completely unable to load even the main page (timeouts). [[Special:Recentchanges]] makes it clear enough that this wasn't true for everyone. Why does this happen? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 03:58, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
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::::Hi, are you trying to add a certain link to your user page? The filter you are mentioning is blocking certain links, if you just add text you should be ok. Let us know what exactly you are trying to add ok? Thanks! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 05:43, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
:Well it was true for ME for much of the day. We had some firewall issues and an actual fire on the roof of our building that made it impossible for most staff to come to work yesterday and address the other issues. Things are still getting back to normal, but at least WT is up & running. Please report any lingering weirdness that may have begun yesterday. Thanks,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:08, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Sorry, Adzas I am not just trying to post some basic information about my self. There are no internal or external links. Thanks for the help tho.  
  
::FYI you *may* be seeing more of this today; i don't know how performance looks from outside, but there are more network glitches running around today. Sorry about that -- we'll lock it down as soon as we can.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:13, 30 April 2012 (EDT)
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:::::--[[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]] ([[User talk:Wandering Roman|talk]]) 06:20, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
  
== Changing time formats ==
+
::::::I have disabled the Dark Tower abuse filter. Thank you for the heads-up, [[User:Wandering Roman|Wandering Roman]]! [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 15:56, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
  
An anonymous user [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Tokyo&diff=1862930&oldid=1862308 changed all the times] in the [[Tokyo]] article to 24-hour format.  There's some logic behind that, since it's common in Japan to use 24-hour time in most public information displays... but if we were to follow that standard, wouldn't it be better done at a national level?  Whichever way it goes, is this worth reverting?  [[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 09:49, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
+
== Electric vehicle charging stations on Wikitravel/Autonomous vehicles for the future? ==
  
: See [[Wikitravel:Time and date formats]] for the official policy. The talk page for that article also has a fair amount of discussion on the subject. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 11:07, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
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With these types of cars becoming increasingly popular and fully autonomous vehicles quickly becoming reality, should things such as charging stations be listed?  In the future, what about autonomous pickup/dropoff locations as well? --[[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 12:48, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
  
== I have nothing to edit. What can I? ==
+
I for one hate driving with a passion especially in Los Angeles, the traffic hell of the universe. Charging stations wouldn't be useful listed on pages as they need specific address locations and individual city pages are too vague. [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
  
Hello, I'm a new user. I am bored on here. I have nothing to edit. What can I do?
+
:I don´t know how many of those charging stations would be available in a location, I think a mention that charging stations are available would be beneficial, but individual listings I don´t think that would be needed, it would be like posting all petrol stations in a location. Just my thought.... [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:43, 3 June 2016 (EDT)
  
And besides, are you going to comment about my username and signature? [[User:Scambox48 (Blow PMA up)|Pmaistakingthebanhammertobanworld]] 22:35, 28 April 2012 (EDT)
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:: True, posting them all would be indeed too much.  --[[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 17:18, 6 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:If you have nothing to edit, why are you here? If you're only here to publicize your dislike of Pmanderson (who doesn't edit here), we're not really interested.  If you're genuinely interested in becoming a Wikitraveler, I suggest your first step should be to register a better username.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 09:27, 29 April 2012 (EDT)
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::: Did anyone see that news article about the guy taking up three whole charging spots? [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 12:59, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
  
==Vandals getting around blocks==
+
==New Update Today!==
  
How is this vandal that I blocked able to still make edits, as an unregistered user, to a page that I protected from edits by unregistered users? See [[User talk:216.66.167.98]] [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 21:27, 29 April 2012 (EDT)
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Woohoo, hopefully everything goes smooth! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 16:36, 7 June 2016 (EDT)
 +
:'''So far, so good''' I haven't noticed any problems. Has anything been reported so far? [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:42, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
  
: A blocked user can still edit his talk page with the current Mediawiki version.  Similarly, it doesn't appear that protecting a page has any effect unless the page exists - you can create a page with a note indicating why it will be protected and then protect it, and things should work as expected. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 22:00, 29 April 2012 (EDT)
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:Luckily not too many issues with the switch! [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 18:06, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
 +
::Just a bit of spam but not too bad! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
 +
:::I do an edit, and write an edit summary, but when I try to save it a pop-up asks me to write a another, separate edit summary. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 04:45, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
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::::Well, sometimes it does it, but not always. When it happens, the heading of the pop-up is <nowiki>"Publish to {{SITENAME}}"</nowiki>. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 04:47, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
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:::::'''Shared''' This should definitely be posted to the Pub on Shared. That's a serious bug. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
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::::::OK. thanks. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (EDT)
  
== French Wikitravel pages for deletion ==
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==Space travel==
 +
When it becomes available at what price point will you partake in space travel.  Not the near earth orbit/ vomit comet stuff but actually leave the atmosphere to the moon type stuff.  10 thousand? 20 thousand?  [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
  
Hi, could someone speedily delete some of the pages on the [[:fr:Wikitravel:Pages à supprimer|French Wikitravel pages for deletion]]? [[User:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">'''–sumone10154'''</font>]] 14:01, 2 May 2012 (EDT)
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:Honestly, I can't even handle rollercoasters, so I'm not sure how well I'd do when pulling the Gs of space flight. And I mean, there's enough stuff ''on'' the planet I need to see [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 14:02, 9 June 2016 (EDT)
:Done. --[[User:Rein N.|Rein N.]] 19:01, 2 May 2012 (EDT)
+
  
== Ontopic or not? Page gathering information on possibilities to take bicycles on public transport. ==
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:I think once the technology allows the cost to be more reasonable, I'll be willing to spend 1k [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 13:51, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
  
Hi! Over at the (Swedish-language) Facebook group [http://www.facebook.com/groups/45841099287/] and Facebook page [http://www.facebook.com/cykelpatag] we were discussing to create a collection of information somewhere listing the possibilties (and lack-thereof) of taking a bicycle on Swedish trains, buses, etc. I wonder if that would be on-topic on Wikitravel? It would be one page listing for all of Sweden with what companies and on what lines it's possible to take a bicycle and where it's not. If possible we would make a map out of it. A wiki would be useful, we don't have one, and on Wikipedia it would be off-topic I think. What about Wikitravel? Does it fit? --[[User:Gerrit|Gerrit]] 17:08, 3 May 2012 (EDT)
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== If you were stranded alone on any island in the world, which island would you want it would be? ==
*Such an article might be a bit too limited in scope.  It might be better to have an entire [[Bicycle travel in Sweden]] article that covers all aspects of bicycling.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 18:45, 3 May 2012 (EDT)
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== ***RESCHEDULED for next week*** MediaWiki upgrade is scheduled for Monday 5/14/12 ==
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Imagine all islands are now deserted, left only with the remaining amenities left behind by its former dwellers. (think zombie apocalypse) [[User:IBrobin|IBrobin]] ([[User talk:IBrobin|talk]]) 13:39, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
  
Site will be READ-ONLY for up to TWO DAYS while the upgrade is occurring.
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:I'd have to go with the old standard: Hawaii. Lots of rain, lots of sun, great views. I can think of worse places to spend the rest of my life (although hopefully a few other people can stop by, so it's not so lonely haha). [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:14, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
  
If there are edits you'd like to make, please do so over the weekend and on Monday.
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:Judging by google earth, Anuta island (part of the solomon islands) looks pretty cozy! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 19:19, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
  
When the new site comes online, it will be on new hardware as well. Bug reporting is available here:
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:The Americas please!!!!!!  [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]]) 17:45, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
  
http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS
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:: Bora Bora!!! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 11:49, 13 September 2016 (EDT)
  
If for any reason you need to contact me, I can be reached on my Talk page or my email address paul.obrien at internetbrands.com.
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== Banner photographs ==
  
Thank you for hanging in there with us; once this major upgrade is complete we expect to be able to update the site software in a much more timely manner (1.11 to 1.17 is a big jump), and we have development resources to address any technical issues still lingering after the upgrade, as well as to address the next set of feature requests from the community. We're looking forward to the next stage of the project and hope you are too!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:47, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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I just want to ask - what is the criteria for the banner photographs and what they can be of for the articles on Wikitravel? The main thing I noted was a banner photo of the wrong place, as I noted on the talk page! [[User:Wetter88|Wetter88]] ([[User talk:Wetter88|talk]]) 12:17, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
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:'''Banners''' Wetter88, there are no hard and fast rules, except for the size and ratio of the photo. It's best to choose something engaging and illustrative and those can change over time if someone finds a better one. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:00, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
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::I noticed that the banner picture on the [[Woking]] article wasn't in Woking, so I was wondering whether this meant it was invalid as it was the wrong place! [[User:Wetter88|Wetter88]] ([[User talk:Wetter88|talk]]) 02:47, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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:::Hi, you're right, the [[Woking]] banner is wrong. We will create a new corrected one very soon (unless you want to try and create a new one). Thanks, [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 05:02, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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::::'''Accuracy''' It's definitely better to have a photo that really represents the place you're going. Personally, I'm not very hung up on it, especially if the photo is of somewhere nearby or comparable. This example is just a busy train station--honestly, I don't think anyone will be disappointed if he gets to Woking and this scene isn't there. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
  
: I've updated [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice ]] to note the scheduled outage. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 18:36, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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== Fitness Around the World ==
 +
I'm US-based, and (especially in California) we have a major fitness sub-culture. Weightlifting, yoga, running, and the outdoors are all very big here. I was wondering about the fitness cultures of other countries and how those display themselves. Like here, running and physique are definitely the major areas, then probably yoga. What about Europe? Asia? How do different countries express their physicality? [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:51, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
  
::Thank you Ryan.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:59, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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:I like the British way-- http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fitness/2011/01/fitness_for_foreigners.html [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]]) 17:57, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
  
:Might be helpful to list the time in UTC (for the non-US users) in the message that displayed at the top. So: ''A MediaWiki upgrade is scheduled for Tuesday 8-May at 10AM PST (17:00 UTC). The site will be READ-ONLY for up to two days during the upgrade. '' [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 23:38, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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::Interesting article, to be sure! [[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 17:01, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
  
::Done [[User:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">'''–sumone10154'''</font>]] 10:58, 5 May 2012 (EDT)
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==Embassy and consulate listings==
 +
What are your thoughts on having the embassy and consulate listings in the "Cope" sections of the main pages of every city? These listings also include code for the flag icons and add a lot bytes to the size of every page. They are also very distracting in the cases of some cities that have over 100 listings in this section and are rarely useful for the average traveler. I don't think many travelers will rely on wikitravel if they run into trouble or need a visa as most countries have a certain procedure for addressing these issues and travelers will visit the webpage of the applicable embassy via a google search. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 50.195.72.217|50.195.72.217]] ([[User_talk: 50.195.72.217|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/50.195.72.217|contribs]]) </small>
  
THIS HAS BEEN RESCHEDULED FOR 5/15/2012 due to network issues today. As we get closer to the day, I'll post a time -- it is likely to be around 5am PST (12:00 UTC).--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:22, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
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:I agree. I remember in the past we had a discussion about this, let me see what I can find about it. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 05:09, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
  
THIS HAS BEEN RESCHEDULED FOR 5/14/2012. It is still likely to be around 5am PST (12:00 UTC).--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:28, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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::I think that these listings are most useful in the non-capital cities like [[Denver]] or [[Manchester]]. A traveller might be able get a visa needed for later when in such a city, and would probably not have though of looking for a consulate there. Conversely a list is probably not so useful in [[London]] where you would expect almost every country to have an embassy. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 17:14, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
  
: Since the site isn't read-only as of 8AM (Pacific) on 14-May, is there any update on when the upgrade is going to happen? -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 10:56, 14 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::That can be addressed by noting the countries that have embassies/consulates in a single sentence for these smaller cities.
  
::I'm told 2 minutes from now.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 12:58, 14 May 2012 (EDT)
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== Site usage data ==
  
:::I'm following GW Bush's counsel [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:33, 14 May 2012 (EDT)
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Hi Folks,
  
I will update shortly on the upgrade status.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:55, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
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I have a quick question, is it possible to get page view counts for a particular period, from Wikitravel?
 +
For example, could I get a list of the top locations that are searched for on WT and associate a location with them?
 +
Kind of thinking of a heatmap for WT page popularity for london.
  
:<big>Mission Accomplished!</big><small><small><small>?</small></small></small>  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 20:18, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
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Thanks,
 +
Omar
  
== Templated See and Do listings ==
+
: Hi Omar, I'm terribly sorry about the delayed response, but that is a great idea! Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of feature at the moment. However, I will do my best to see if that's something we can implement in the near future. I will most definitely keep you updated and you'll be the first to know! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:04, 9 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Hi there. I'm only a new 'WikiTraveler', but am a seasoned Wiki-editor with many years experience. I am hoping to make some big contributions to this site, but something has been bugging me lately. I find that the See and Do listings on some articles can get very messy and disorganised. I think if we were to organise this information into a template/table, this would be much better for viewers to decipher information from, and also improve the quality of our articles.
+
== Conflict Photojournalism ==
  
This has been proposed many years ago at [[Wikitravel_talk:Attraction_listings]], but with little discussion or progress. It seems many other language WikiTravels do it. [http://wikitravel.org/ja/%E3%83%AB%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%91%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3#.E8.A6.B3.E3.82.8B See here] for a Japanese example. I understand we use WikiCode tags, and it could take a long time to convert ''every'' article to a template format. One option is to keep the WikiCode we use, but change how the system organises the info within the tags; from a jumbled text wall, to an organised table format. This would allow for a total revamp across the board, yet with minimal effort.
+
Hello Everyone,
  
Any other thoughts, ideas or comments? Thanks, [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] 08:56, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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First and foremost I'm aware of the dangers present, please do not convince me not to do this, although you could suggest similar career paths. Lately I've been interested in photographers in poverty/war/conflict stricken areas. I'm not interested in the dangers per se but I am interested how people act in wartime and other dire situations. Let this be a place where we can discuss these things. Is anyone a photojournalist in the first place?
 +
[[User:Misuta trent|Misuta trent]] ([[User talk:Misuta trent|talk]]) 12:51, 29 August 2016 (EDT)Trent
  
: One of the reasons the wikicode tags were used was to add the "edit" links to make it easier for non-technical contributors to add and edit listings. As far as I'm aware there would be no way to achieve similar functionality using templates. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 10:30, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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:Hi Misuta! That sounds like a very interesting career path. It reminds me of HONY (Humans of New York) where he interviewed Syrian refugees  and American veterans affected by PTSD. It's crazy to think that these amazing/sad/inspirational stories are coming from people we see on the streets. What made you want to pursue this particular career path? [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:15, 9 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:: Maybe this is just me... I feel like the Japanese presentation is a bit over the top, but I'd be quite happy just to add a bit more formatting to the current presentation. Just a bit of italics here and there, that kind of stuff. Most English-language print guidebooks do this, and I think it aids readability and makes it easy to spot when a listing is missing a piece of info. --[[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 14:18, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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== External Links Style, two interpretations ==
:::Our listings already use bold and italics.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 18:50, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::We do have a great system for adding listings. This system can easily be kept. What would be changed is where that information goes. There has to be a page somewhere (probably a MediaWiki: page) that organises the listing into the format it currently is, with the bold font, italics, etc. From a glance at this page, it seems [[User:IBobi]] handles the wiki's technical stuff, so maybe he would know how to change it.
+
::::The Japanese format does take it a step overboard with all the colours and pictures. We could always have a much more toned down version. I just feel the way it is now is really messy. Look at the opening times on the [[Dhaka#Buildings|first listing here]]; it's all over the place. A possibility could be just to add more bold/italics/underlines, or even put some information on separate lines or dot points. Does anyone want to have a go at fixing it up? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 04:28, 12 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::: Yes, I know they already use some bold and italics... I was saying I think they could use a little more. --[[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 10:15, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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Hello.
 +
Some time ago i came across 2 different interpretations of external links style policy. Some admins approved the "blue bold clickable“ external link style (avoiding footnotes) and encouraged me to revert footnotes to "blue bold clickable“ style, while some other admins reverted existing "blue bold clickable“ external links back to "footnote“ style. Also deleted some edits by other users who added listings in "blue bold clickable“ style stating it was "bad format“, although it exactly conformed the example presented on WT policy page. Would like to know which interpretation is now valid and correct.
  
:::::Well, to be honest, I wouldn't know how to change them. But a good start would be creating a mockup. [[Wikitravel talk:Listings]] would be a good place to discuss the mockup once you create one. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 19:26, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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And would like to avoid off-topic comments about external links content, formatting and other policy because i ask about external links style. I know WT policy too, no need to redirect me to those pages which i already know well. Those two opposite interpretations coexist in written policy, it‘s like some of those policy texts are slightly incoplete or something, but when it comes to adding useful info which is encouraged by one admin but deleted by other admin, i start to feel as if WT is busy with anything else but not with creating a proper guide. How to be a useful contributor if even to trust admin is risky. Could someone provide a strict statement which external link style must be used, a "blue bold clickable“ one or a "footnote“ one? [[User:Local|Local]]
  
:::::I certainly wouldn't want to see the listings become as colorful and complex as the ones on the Japanese site and I like the tag system we have now, but I think some minor tweaking couldn't hurt - putting the opening hours and the price info in italics, to further distinguish them from the description of the place, would really tidy up the presentation (whether this can actually be done I don't know, but I'm just throwing that out there). I really wouldn't want to see any more bolded text in the listings - as of now only the '''name''' of the place is bolded, and I like that because it highlights it and makes it easier on the eye when you're scanning an article looking for a specific listing. [[User:PerryPlanet|PerryPlanet]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:PerryPlanet|Talk]]</sup></small> 10:31, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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And sorry, but where is a "sign" button after the site was upgraded? [[User:Local|Local]]
  
::::::We could make the phone number blink!  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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: Hi [[User:Local|Local]] thanks for stopping by! I'm one of new hired admins overseeing Wikitravel from Internet Brands. I'm aware that you previously discussed this issue with several admins and it was brought to my attention by Triskelle not too long ago. Despite some confusion, we are allowed to use both the "blue bold clickable" style and the "footnote" style for listings. Upon discussing this with Triskelle, we decided that it was in our best interest to stick to the footnote style for the [[Vilnius]] page. Most listings on this page used a combination of the two formats so I've been fixing it to reflect the footnote style listings. However, the only time footnote styles are not allowed is when a user is trying to link to a source to prove a point or back up a fact. Hope this answers your question! Also you can sign off using "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Let me know if you need more clarifications, I'd be happy to answer them. [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:36, 16 September 2016 (EDT)
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::: Thanks for matter-of-fact answer. Vilnius article or not Vilnius article it's irrelevant to me - can you confirm that previous policy change (March 2013) which made a switch from the "footnote" style to the "blue bold clickable" style is not valid anymore (with that exception you pointed out) and the corresponding policy page will be modified accordingly? Now it is only your "private answer" to my "private question", so to speak, i have no reason not to trust your explanation just don't see (so far) how it reflects on written policy (i.e. it does not reflect now). There was similar confusion back in 2013 but the policy page was quickly modified immediately when agreement among admins was met. As for the Vilnius article, you probably don't know all details, it was a [[Washington, D.C.]] article (a star one) which was taken as an example of how a nice article should look like. And Vilnius article was formatted after it. Discussions about it can be found in corresponding archived talk page. Can you confirm that Washington, D.C. article, in this respect, now can't be taken as such example? (I assume you do confirm). I ask for those details because there are no other confirmations of what you were discussing with that other admin, only those few lines above. I just want to be sure that i understand correctly. Whether it is this style or that style is irrelevant to me, i just want to be sure which one and that it won't be changed soon to the other one again. So thanks so far for your brief clarification, it is useful. And i assume there is no a "sign button" anymore, one have to sign only manually, is that correct? I'm a bit surprised that after the upgrade one have to do more manual work LOL... [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 06:58, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Moving the hours to a separate line could be really useful. I think we could make them more readable:
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::'''MediaWiki help''' In case some of how the site works seems confusing, there is a [https://mediawiki.org/ wiki just about the software] as well. That site may be able to help you but you can also ask for assistance here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 03:14, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
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::: Thanks for that link, at least so far i don‘t see how, why and when to use it (i know how to navigate and edit), but there are many (too many) little confusing things (maybe too little to bother admins with), and one, for example, is about recent upgrade, namely it reads above: "''a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly''". Is it about the option "Upload a picture" – the WT Shared page opens, then it reads "Upload Wizard" but it‘s pending, nothing happens – is it about it? When i open WT Shared and click "Upload a file" – the same good old upload page opens, it seems everything OK, will it work if i decide to upload a picture? I have uploaded many pictures to WT Shared previously so the "procedure" is no problem, and i have a little pile of new pictures i was going to upload later. Judging by how the "Upload a file" option works i will be able to, and judging by how the "Upload a picture" option works i won‘t be able to upload using this option. Is that correct? Because if that is correct, the statement at the top of this page seems misleading, it implies that currently ''any'' upload of pictures is temporalily impossible. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 07:46, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::'''Uploads''' There is an upload wizard that is being deployed (I have no insider information on this) and if it's like at [https://commons.wikimedia.org/ Commons], it will not ''replace'' the standard method but complement it. Are there more things confusing or misleading about this wiki? I'd like to help if I can. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::: Aha, it won't replace the existing method, that's clear then. I know that wizard at Wikimedia Commons, i uploaded many pictures there. Well, i always appreciate any practical help from anyone and so far i have implemented it (all that i've learned from some of admins) in the form of texts or parts of texts, including some listings, here on WT, so some travelers could avoid some misunderstandings or so. Still it looks like a swamp to me.
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::::: By "confusions" i mean things that i encountered from the very beginning when i decided to correct some mistakes, and later to add this and that, and later implementing advices of admins, and later implementing advices of other admins and that's not mentioning conflicting or duplicated expressions (statements) on policy pages. I tell that as a user who was willing to make this guide more usefull. Those little confusions are the actual obstacles. I feel that i will give up, like many other potential contributors that i have encountered. I don't know if this is a proper place to clearify such small things? Two examples of such actual obstacles (it's like anecdotes, actually). First one, banners. It reads: "''If you'd like to update an article's banner with a new image, please post on that article's talk page. Make sure the community and admin team are in agreement that the new image should be featured''." Looks clear, so i, as a newbie, uploaded banner to the article's discussion page. After a while one of admins transfered it to the article itself. So i uploaded several more banners with no problems and no objections. Then i came across that some banners depict other localities, i found out why admins who uploaded them made such mistakes (there were some mistakes made by the Flickr photographers too), understood their way of thinking and understood that they do not know pecularities of location while i do know. Here starts the anecdote: according to banner guidelines, admins can't make mistakes. There is only option "If you'd like to update banner" (a bit sarcastically). Well, i accept that, authorities is authorities, so i wanted to "update" those banners, made the relevant ones and uploaded in corresponding discussion pages, provided brief explanations - and started to wait when "the community and admin team will be in agreement that the new images should be featured". Still waiting. I think, it's more than a year already, so not so long. What else should i do? I can easily replace wrong banners with correct ones, but one of admins made a clever remark to my comment: "you know, the existing banner looks better, i think". So, authorities is authorities, i don't argue. I want to reach agreement untill i make any moves. Because i constantly see how relevant info (including pictures) are deleted or reverted due to the lack of competence. This is not bad, anyone can make mistakes. Me too. I am used to this way to solve such situation: someone makes a mistake, another one points out, and then the one who made the mistake corrects it. This is normal in my business. But WT does not have any guideline that explains how to behave when you see the mistake you can't so simply correct, let alone mistake made by admin. Second anecdote. Say, i need help. Policy pages and guidelines tell "do that", "don't do that", and supposedly there are all answers to all possible questions, and if the question still arise one can post it at the Pub. What if it's silly question, or say, uncomfortable question like mine (just look to the amount of my text above) - it would be useful to receive a sort of "private consultation" or something. No. Don't bother admins, read policy. If you don't understand, learn english. It took several month to discover that polite and formal "Please feel free to contact me..." which is a sort of a private attitude or just a formal expression on admin user's pages, because such legal possibility does not exist in policy. I was reading policy, why should i look at admin's pages? Why stranger who want to learn how to edit properly should look to admins pages? One of admins politely agreed to answer my questions but i suspect finally got annoyed with my ignorance. Can't complain, it was a favour. Do you now offer me similar favour? It's a swamp, i generally tend to obey policy, which is a real swamp and i actually don't understand how it can be advantageous to WT or IB or anyone else to maintain it in current state. If policy had no conflicting and semi-duplicated sections and statemens it would be beneficial to all, and the new (potential) contributors would act in more reasonable way, at least many of them. Let alone misunderstandings between admins and regular users. So, is it a proper place to be helpful? My talk page would be a good place to me but nobody will reply there, and your talk page will be ruined with such ridiculous amount of texts, just look to my reply LOL. Anyway, i'd like to obey policy, i don't want to criticize or edit it, this is not for me. My little questions are endless, i don't dare to post them here. Plus that new admin didn't reply, probably he won't. I'd be glad if that what was mentioned here by me would be solved LOL  [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 18:05, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::::'''Help''' I'd be happy to help, Local. Obviously, if you are willing to put forth this much effort, you are willing to do some work to make this travel guide better. You can always post to my talk if you want or email me directly if you would prefer to not post it on a public forum. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
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::::::: Thanks. Actually i was falling asleep when i was writing all this, so don't know what actual impression it made LOL... I'll have in mind what you say. Now it's not urgent because admin IBkataoka didn't confirm any detail i was asking above, at least so far. So i won't edit now because editing (or adding new info) involves some listings, and those listings have certain style, i.e. 2 possible styles, one of which is described in policy as a "must", while according to opinion of admin one must stick to another style. I don't want to do a double work, let admins do it if they see sense in that. So i'll simply wait and see. I can explain why opinion of admin is not sufficient: there is no any paragraph in written policy about double standards where guidelines are provided with explanation when one must stick to general policy, and when personal opinion of admin applies. So if now i start to write something and use the footnote style - someone else may revert or delete everything (or part), and he will be right because i violate existing policy. But i can see that potentially i may have actual "technical" questions in the future, i almost know what kind of. So i will contact you at your talk page, thanks. But so far i give up, i'm too busy to let me involve into confusions created by others :) [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 09:30, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
  
Current version:
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:::::::: Hey [[User:Local|Local]]! Sorry about the delayed respond, but rest assured I wasn't ignoring you :) I've taken some time to figure out the best answers and options to help clarify policies regarding Wikitravel. I understand your frustration- few policies that exist now can contradict other policies and some even clash with each other. The admins and I are going to work together to re-edit some of the policies to make information more easily understandable. In the amidst of all this confusion, admins do and will make mistakes from time to time and that's okay! Since we are all human, it's pretty inevitable. We do however, try our best to keep mistakes to a minimum though. Also, there is NO such thing as a silly question-ever. We encourage questions and discussions such as these because that's what the Traveller's Pub is all about! And Wikitravel wouldn't be where we are today without the help and keen eye from our wonderful users.
* <see name="International Spy Museum" alt="" address="800 F St NW" directions="" phone="+1 202 393-7798" url="http://spymuseum.org/index.php" hours="9AM-5PM or 9AM-6PM daily, last admission one hour before close" price="Adults: $20, seniors: $15, children (5-11): $15, 4 &amp; under: Free" lat="" long="" email="" fax="">D.C.'s newest hot attraction's principal claim to fame among locals is the extraordinarily long line that usually winds out the doors (not to mention the high price tag). Its popularity, while a bit disproportionate given all the other great free museums in town, is not unwarranted—its exhibits are interesting to anyone even marginally interested in espionage and Cold War history, and it also has a great exhibit tailored specifically to kids.</see>
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Another idea:
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:::::::: Which brings me to the next issue. The sign off button that existed before have temporarily disappeared and the Upload Wizard is currently down, but we're glad you pointed this out to us because we are now working hard to get both back up and running. So thank you for pointing that out to us.  
*'''International Spy Museum''', 800 F St NW, ☎ +1 202 393-7798, [http://spymuseum.org/index.php 1].
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:''9AM-5PM or 9AM-6PM daily, last admission one hour before close.''
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:D.C.'s newest hot attraction's principal claim to fame among locals is the extraordinarily long line that usually winds out the doors (not to mention the high price tag). Its popularity, while a bit disproportionate given all the other great free museums in town, is not unwarranted—its exhibits are interesting to anyone even marginally interested in espionage and Cold War history, and it also has a great exhibit tailored specifically to kids.
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:'''Price''': Adults: $20, seniors: $15, children (5-11): $15, 4 & under: Free.  
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Good idea to take a fresh look at this. We'll have to wait until we have functional tech support, or the ability to do our own tech support, before we can implement this, but it's good to figure out what we want in the meantime. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 15:55, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::: As for the external link style as I have stated before, we are allowed to use both formats. The only time footnotes are not allowed is when someone is trying to support their arguments or prove their information. The listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the [[Wikitravel:Listings |Examples section]] of this policy. Yes, I also understand you are well aware of all the policies but this is the one I strongly urge you to follow. Because of this, many pages will need re-editing, but with the help of the admins and fellow Wikitravelers, we will able to restore the pages accordingly. If you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know! I would love to further discuss them with you and the rest of Wikitravel. Best [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:42, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:That's great, Peter! The separate lines makes it much easier to read the information, instead of it being a jumbled mess. Most travel guides do organise the info how we do it now, (all in one long spiel, rather than spaced out) but that's just because they need to fit all the info into a specific number of pages. We have much more room than books, so it makes sense that we make use of it and make the info easier to read for viewers. I'll do some perusing and see if I can find out how to edit the backend stuff. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 07:05, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::: Oh and one more thing I forgot to add. Banners. Would the best solution be creating a central banner page where users can submit their banners? This would be a page that admins will check everyday. Let me know what you think! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:Excellent suggestion! [[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] 07:15, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::::::: '''No need to be sorry''' ;) . Really appreciate your professional response. And professional approach. So far it was like dealing with kindergarten kids, except Aleksandra who alone obviously couldn't be responsible for all nonsenses of others. Your comments are crystal clear. Your attitude regarding footnote vs blue-bold-clickable style is crystal clear, and even the reason why it is such is clear to me. Also, i think i see the reason why my attitude regarding those styles seems not exactly clear for you, let alone others. So i do not have and didn't have complaints, thus how everything will be solved (this way or that way) is not my business, that is, i don't insist that this or that must be solved in this or that way. So i close my questions - you have answered them, and now i'll simply comment few things, as if responding to your "if you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know!".
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::::::::* Banners. I don't trust admin team and don't care about their competence because i'm perfectly competent myself to judge about technical and aesthetic qualities of banners, pictures, composition of them within text, aesthetics and composition of text with and without graphics, value of templates, how and why templates make impact on general appearance, and how details and specifics of formatting of both text and images make impact on the whole, that is, on general appearance of the page; also what is primary and secondary for the guide and how it fit or don't fit policy and guidelines. So, first of all, criteria provided at banner upload page are pretty sane, or normal if you like. I know that my banners meet all requirements and know why they do, and why there may be some doubts at some points - this is because for some particular places it is very difficult to find a proper source to create the banner, the sources (photos, that is) are scarce and i know that they are scarce and why. I, to be honest, do not need advices in this respect; my questions about banners were triggered by my bad experiences and distrust. Which turned out to be sane tactics. So i don't know - do you experience some confusions with users who make banners? That is, are there cases when they make wrong or inappropriate banners? I can say that initially, when banners were just introduced (not so long ago), i experienced one inconvenience, asked at Pub twice and received the reply of admin once, reply was off-topic and useless. By that time there were only few banners, now there are many but the question is still relevent to some extent: where are they? I don't talk about pages - where are the banners stored? I store my banners among my uploads at WT Shared. The point is that it is very useful to have a possibility to see them all (created by others) at one glance. When you see them all (like google search images, for example) you can judge about both whole and details in all aspects: content, aesthetics, trend. You then can judge yourself what are the requirements, what is considered "nice" and "appropriate". So they must be already approved by admin team. This would be genuinely useful. Maybe it could be just display, while they could be stored where they are now.
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::::::::* Footnote vs blue-bold-clickable styles. You say ''"listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the [[Wikitravel:Listings |Examples section]] of this policy"'' and I know why you do but you don'y know why i stubbornly don't want to accept that. At least i have such impression - do you see where the point is? In chronology and laziness. Did you check chronology and did you take into account human laziness? I now don't ask anything nor complain about something - i simply tell you in playfull manner what one can clearly see if he properly investigates the issue. I take into account that you are a ''new'' admin, i am newbie too so there are not so much differences in some aspects. So, initially there were only footnotes, it was not even a style but simply the "technical solution" or so. One option, one style. And all policy was written accordingly, there were neither confusions nor doubts nor misunderstandings in this respect because external links were supposed to be placed in those footnotes, sorry my english vocabulary is very limited, especially when it comes down to "technical" expressions, so please take that into account. Then, both WT community and admin team, found that the footnot style is visually annoying and practically inconvenient. Arguments were provided. Small discussion took place. No objections were raised. Aleksandra approved - but i have to say that i have no clue whether others were aware about this decision at all, i assume they are obliged to be aware but i think they simply silently accept such things and immediately forget. This is about 2012/2013, i also want to point out that your friend from Russia became admin later. So - i stress that - needful corrections on appropriate policy page were made. They still present. There is some pecularity: everything was designend, especially at "technical" point, that external links can be reached using footnotes, so if you want to make a blue-bold-clickable external link you have to do that manually. I don't know - maybe after recent upgrade this was improved? I don't see much difference, manually or not manually, simply when something works automatically it is more obvious. But this is secondary because the policy is primary. Changes in policy were made and requirements were described extremely clear, citation: ''"No footnotes. Travel guides do not use footnotes!"''. I was and am constantly pointing this requirement of policy because any other opinions are just private opinions and violate WT policy. Create a section of double standards or revert those changes or make other appropriate changes instead. It would be professional. Now it is a kindergarten. So, i continue about external links style. Here laziness comes into force: appropriate changes about style were made, having in mind that this applies to all external links. Now see - all policy is written in footnote style, to edit entire policy is a decent work, to say the least. So it was supposed that if policy has proper description about external link styles, it should be sufficient and everything else goes without saying. So let's see Listings page: humble change was made there too - ''"the URL for the official Web site for this listed entry. To display properly as a working, clickable hyperlink, either http:// or https:// must be included before the rest of the URL! (see external links for more guidelines)"''. Nothing special, one should see what kind of edit was made at 18:27, 15 March 2013 right after changing the Style Policy - very minimal correction, editor had in mind that the new style policy applies and this goes without saying. Isn't all that sufficient and doesn't it go without saying? Now the new admin comes. Indeed, why it should go without saying, all policy is written in footnote style, all articles have footnote styles, so what should here go without saying? In my oppinion, here should go without saying that admin team can't be a kindergarten, and that private opinions are not even secondary - they are nothing. And i indeed lost my temper during that silly conversation with your russian friend. I had idea to improve some articles of RU WT, but now not interested. So I continue. Blue-bold-clicable style was some sort of novelty, having in mind that all articles will be gradually changed from footnote style to blue-bold-clickable style. So both styles coexist, but since all texts are experiencing edits from time to time, it was expected that all footnotes will be smoothly replaced with blue-bold-clickable links. Like you pointed out - "many pages will need re-editing" LOL. Are you aware what you are re-editing and why? If you have professional approach, relax first, make appropriate changes in policy, then act according to the policy. Your choice what and how to edit in policy, but i have to say that if your coworkers didn't explain everything what i have told you here - this is not admin team, it's a kindergarten. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 08:41, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::If anyone wants to have a go searching for how to modify the backend code that configures the layout, [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Allmessages&ot=html here] may be a good start. That's a list of all the technical MediaWiki pages that can be tweaked. Some pages have the prefix "listing", which might be somehow relevant. But don't take my word for it; the page we need might not be there. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 09:02, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::::: Hi [[User:Local|Local]]! Glad you stayed around to discuss this with me further. The admin team is a group of one the hardest working people that I know and although you may disagree, I know that they are doing their best. We may have had some miscommunication here and there, but please don't blame them. I assure you that from here and on we will all be on the same page. I sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for all the stress Wikitravel has caused you so far. As I've stated before, the admin team and I will need to thoroughly re-vist some of the policies and edit them accordingly so please be patient with us :) I will be sure to take your suggestions/comments and keep them at the top of my mind! Especially having the option to view all the banners made by users in one glance (That's a great idea!) I do however, still stand by my external link format that I've stated earlier. I'm glad that you find my reasoning for them crystal clear. Should you choose to accept them, I hope that you will continue to stick around to make contributions and edits to Wikitravel. Best [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 12:42, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::Keep in mind that, despite the prevalence of mobile options in the modern era, making guides that can be easily and cheaply printed out is still one of our [[Wikitravel:Goals and non-goals|explicit goals]][[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 20:17, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::::::As some of the edits that are mentioned above were done so long ago, it is hard to remember all details. I would just like to add something about the changing of banners (and other information). Usually if you see incorrect information, everyone here is entitled to change information, as long as you put a reason in the comment field, so all understand why something was removed/changed. With the banners, many people spent a lot of time finding pictures and uploading them, so just changing a banner because you don´t like a picture we don´t do, we try to discuss first on the discussion page of the article, in order to respect all editors here. Obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion. We always try to answer any questions asked by users, at times questions are not seen due to high amount of spam, some edits are auto patrolled and only seen later etc etc, so if you don´t get an answer somewhere, feel free to send a message to a user or admin directly, that usually works. The external link discussion has been going on for a while, mainly because the "add listing" format comes up with the footnote style and it could not be changed at the time of discussion (tech issue). There were other priorities to focus on, and to be honest, my priority has been content, and when editing a page and I notice something totally against our policies I will change it. That´s why it is so great to have so many editors here, one looks specifically at the policies, one looks at content, another looks at pictures etc etc. Since the latest upgrade there is much less spam so all of us will have more time to look at the details, on the EN version and on the language versions too.  Participating here is not meant to be stressful, enjoy it, we all work together on this great project. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:45, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::: It is entirely possible to change the format for a printed guide, much like we do now for URL formatting. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 20:27, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::::::: Thanks [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] for your matter-of-fact comment, there is nothing to disagree with, it all goes without saying, so to say. You told some totally new things that i didn't know. This guide (WT) is rather widely used, i know that from some travel forums, and from those forums i discovered that source of some misleading info comes from WT (there may be more sources of course). So basically i'm interested in content too, and one of annoying things was that admins revert correct content to outdated content and provide explanations (different in different cases), and those explanations always are statement that this edit is totally against policies. I don't want to focus now on this (it's endless), i'd like to clearify those new to me things in more detail, say, some things about those banners. This is quite handy example. Your statement: ''"obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion."'' . So this is a case, this is what i wanted to do. To me no discussion is needed, just i expect that admin will come and revert it, stating that my "knowledge" is wrong because he knows better (or so, i'm simplifying). So, to prevent that, i posted simple question, something like "this one is wrong" and "let me know if i can replace it with the right one" (actual coment was longer). That is, i wanted and still want to reach agreement before i make any move, no discussion is needed. It was rather long ago indeed, i stopped editing because i don't know how to behave with those wrong banners. Wrong by content, not because i didn't like it. It was admin who didn't like correct one. So, as you see, it's such a simple thing and everyting turns into such a mess because there is no clear guidance what to do in case of mistakes. That option "if you want to update the banner", well, it is more relevant to photos that illustrate the text, while banner is more for representation, but yes, this option is usefull, but it does imply that existing banner is still correct, still represents the article, and may be replaced with simillarly correct one but with more qualities etc. While wrong content, incorrect location is a different thing. I assume it's a rare exception. Maybe even hardly possible. But still. If this is some obscure station (like in other discussion above) i agree that this is not very relevant but why not to replace it if you can make a correct one... and besides, this would be professional approach. But i talk about panoramic landscapes, manors, castles - i agree with you in all details, that is, that such banner should be replaced, but how one can do that if policy does not explain how and whether this is allowed? Once it's absent in policy - it goes without saying that this is not allowed. I assume(d), this is a prerogative of admin team. It would be quite normal. Editing is editing, adding new text or images is still editing, but mistakes left because of lack of knowledge, competence, by mistake, intentionally is a different thing, it's not always clear that and whether this is an actual mistake (otherwise it would not be left). So it would be normal if admin team has prerogative to deal with all obscure mistakes of content that occur. My attempt to clearify that ended in stern silence. Long or not long ago, it's secondary - it could be many more recent misunderstandings that ended in silence, just i got fed up. Now summer ended, i decided to try to clearify some things. So who can correct mistakes, like in case with those banners? Anyone? Or admin team? Or anyone can report to admin team and they will take care? I don't ask to answer, i'd like to see what policy says :) . Maybe there is some explanation, i could miss it, that's quite possible. I just want to add about that what is "obvious", like in your saying about banners with incorrect locations - there were many obvious things to me, but when admin says that for him it's obvious that he's right and i'm wrong and provide arguments that illustrate certain gap in his certain knowledge - what one should do then? This turns your reasonable advice to behave reasonably and sanely into impasse. And that is what wasted majority of my time on WT. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 15:59, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::Is that feature custom to Wikitravel, or a feature of MediaWiki?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 23 May 2012 (EDT)
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'''Admin issues''' Local, I can't speak to any other admins but I am an admin here and I am not affiliated with Internet Brands. If you feel like someone did something wrong or that you simply don't understand, you can of course contact him directly or if you want an outside perspective, you can ask me. I'm glad you're here and have been here for awhile--I hope you want to continue contributing. If you'd like, you can send me an email. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:08, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::: The alternate formatting for printable version is a MediaWiki feature. All it does is use a different (css) stylesheet for formatting. I'm pretty sure MediaWiki allows more of these stylesheets to be configured as preferences too. So in my understanding you could easily have a different style for printing than you have for online display, so we shouldn't let the printing bit constrain our thinking too much. After all, our online display currently has no URLs, so is inherently unsuited for printing. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 19:29, 23 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::Thanks again for your input [[User:Local|Local]]. Sorry you feel your time is wasted here, we appreciate anyone´s input and edits. For future edits, just [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|plunge forward]], also with banners. We are all human, we can all make mistakes, admin on this site too, so as [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] says, if you feel you are not getting a response or the incorrect response or there are doubts, contact an admin directly. We are looking forward to further edits from you! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
:::::::There's been a week of inactivity, so is everyone content with just implementing Peter's version for the time being? There's no colour or pictures, simply a few extra lines and spaces, and it should be possible to keep the Printable version as-is. After implementation, we can re-discuss if there's any issues. I did a little search around to find the code we need to edit, but it's very complicated. It looks like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming) Ajax] and CSS were used, which is only editable by site admins/IB. The Listing Editor's code is [http://files.wikitravel.org/mw/skins/common/ListingEditor.js here]. The formatting of the listing is [http://files.wikitravel.org/mw/skins/common/listing.css here]. Original discussion [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Popup_editing_for_listings_tags here]. While we're at it, we should add the 'email' option to the editor, which has been long missing. I guess we should file a tech-request then? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 23:21, 29 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::: Wait, wait, i assume there is no policy that allows to "contact directly", no? It's a bit anecdotically but i was reading "Plunge forward" policy a minute ago and guessing what does this mean: ''"Ignoring authority....Don't bother asking..."''. Maybe there is no doubts for you, but policy tells quite different... LOL .. I'll better wait for the updated policy version and see. If won't die until that LOL.. [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 17:28, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
::::::::Given the complexity of the change and the expansiveness of its effect, I'd prefer to see more discussion before we go making major changes.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 30 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::: You are always welcome to contact an admin directly as Koavf and Adzas have suggested. But yes! Please do stick around for some updates and we hope it's to your liking :) Cheers! [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 17:41, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
I would also like to see some more discussion on this before making a change. Listings have a variety of completeness and length of information, so depending on what is there, the above proposal could easily produce a very lopsided-looking listing like this:
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:::::: [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]], thanks for your polineness and good will, I appreciate it, but clarity in our "semi-private" conversation is not a policy; i'm now starting to suspect that i was wrong thinking that admin team should act more reasonably - how and why to act reasonably if policy is a mess... LOL [[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 17:53, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
*'''International Butt Museum''', 800 F St NW, ☎ +1 202 393-7798, butt@buttmuseum.org, [http://buttmuseum.org/index.php 1].
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:''9AM-5PM.''
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:Super awesome museum about butts. Great for people who have butts or would like to find out more about butts.
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:'''Price''': Free.
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[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 15:16, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:Is there a code that we could use that would only implement the multiple-line layout when a certain character/word count is reached? Sounds complicated to implement, though. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 05:42, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::This project has been running pretty well since 2003 with the policies/guidelines that are currently in place. Times change so policies/guidelines could be updated where necessary, but I don´t think they are a mess, sorry again you feel that way. As  [[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] says, some updates are looked at so probably best to take it from there. Happy editing! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 18:27, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
  
== Mediawiki upgrade status ==
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== Evil website wants to steal your content ==
  
The planned MW upgrade has been postponed.
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The evil website that started with stolen content wants to steal even more content. I cannot link because of the filter, but you know which website I am talking about.  <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 62.212.73.246| 62.212.73.246]] ([[User_talk:  62.212.73.246|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ 62.212.73.246|contribs]]) </small>
  
During the last 2 days, as you may have noticed, Wikitravel has been in read-only mode for a planned upgrade. Due to unforeseen technical circumstances, we had to re-schedule.
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:'''Fork''' The content forked to another site is totally within the bounds of the license that Evan and Maj chose for this project. 62.212.73.246, there is nothing "evil" about reproducing it (and building upon it as well)--it's part of the purpose of Wikitravel/voyage. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:13, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
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::I wouldn't say duplicating this site is "Evil", just pointless<small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: 109.156.38.138| 109.156.38.138]] ([[User_talk:  109.156.38.138|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ 109.156.38.138|contribs]]) </small>
  
We have been working to transfer the entire site to new hardware while simultaneously migrating it to MW version 1.17 from 1.11.
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== External links to printable PDF maps ==
  
As you can see, the existing version of the site running on 1.11 is back online for read-write access. Our technical department has built testing tools specific to the customized version of MW that runs Wikitravel, and we'll be using them to troubleshoot and log potential causes of the upgrade failure.
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I would like to add links to printable maps I created on Inkatlas ([https://inkatlas.com/map/_ADN4ETM example]), but it seems like this is against the current External Links policy. I think a free, detailed, up to date printable atlas is something that's very useful to travellers. There is no way to include this external content in Wikitravel itself. Are such links, in fact, against the policy? If so, can an exception/change be made? Full disclosure: inkatlas.com is a project I'm working on in my spare time. [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]] ([[User talk:Kontextify|talk]]) 10:57, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
  
As soon as we have it, I will post a new timetable for the switchover to the new site.
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:Hi [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]], thanks for expressing your concern! I agree with you, a map is an important tool to travellers. However, external links such as yours have been reverted because it requires a user to go to your page and download the map in a PDF format. Popular pages such as [[Manhattan]] and [[San Francisco]] already have maps displayed within the pages that users can refer to. We do appreciate you looking out for fellow travelers though! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:21, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
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::I do appreciate the maps already included in articles, but I find they're often too small or not detailed enough to serve as a proper paper map of a place. Would it not be useful to link to a detailed printable map ''in addition'' to having the embedded ones? For example, articles about national parks and similar destinations can have links to printable maps with trails and terrain data (useful for hiking). Unfortunately, there seems to be no way of adding the PDF directly to Wikitravel. [[User:Kontextify|Kontextify]] ([[User talk:Kontextify|talk]]) 10:11, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::'''Adding files''' In fact, these maps are made from [https://openstreetmap.org/ OpenStreetMap] data, which we can add to [[shared:|Shared]]. The licensing is not a problem. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 22:05, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
  
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 20:37, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
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==Destination of the Month==
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The end of the month is right around the corner, which calls for a new Destination of the Month! If you have any suggestions on where it should be for the month of November, be sure to stop by the [[Destination of the Month]] page and nominate a place! Cheers :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:41, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
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:'''North America''' In the United States, it is Thanksgiving season, so something related to our colonial history or the harvest would be appropriate. Additionally, it's autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, so somewhere that has beautiful vistas for seeing the leaves change could be good. Alternately, we could go the exact opposite route and encourage our Northerner readers to hit the beaches of New Zealand or Tuvalu... [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 21:21, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
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::That's a good idea [[User:Koavf|Koavf]]! Do you know of any nice places in particular? --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 16:06, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::[[User:IBkataoka]] Not off-hand. Of course, the trick is that we would need to have a germane destination that ''also'' has high-quality content here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 23:00, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
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:::: Agreed, [[User:Koavf|Koavf]]. I'll have to do some digging and researching then :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:01, 24 October 2016 (EDT)
  
:Hi, this is [[:ja:user:shoestring|Shoestring]], an admin of ja:.
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:I don´t know the area too well, but I remember the beautiful colours of the leaves this time of year in [[New England]], maybe pick a location there? No beautiful leave colours but [[Portugal]] is also still nice to visit in November. More chance of rain but overall still lovely temperatures and sunny days. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 17:17, 30 October 2016 (EDT)
  
:It will be very much helpful if you could kindly leave a brief message about the concrete schedule of the next system maintenance on the [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] of '''shared and en:''', at least prior to a week.
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::Awesome, thanks for your input [[User:Adzas|Adzas]]! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:01, 31 October 2016 (EDT)
  
:Usually ja: users don't check the pubs on en: and shared so frequently, and we have totally no idea what on earth was happening on the site for the last couple of days.--[[User:Shoestring|Shoestring]] 07:22, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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==Upcoming Holiday Travels==
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With some of our favorite holidays coming up, what are some of the best places to visit around Christmas and the New Year? Or maybe even to escape the holidays? I'm open to any suggestions! --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:49, 14 November 2016 (EST)
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:It's usually so expensive to travel during those months but If I had a choice (as a person from california) I would go to Australia to escape the winter weather! [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 14:40, 15 November 2016 (EST)
  
::Out of interest, what are the changes? Is it just performance improvements, or will this bring in new ads? Are we getting upgraded to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vector Vector] skin, because the Monobook is starting to look quite old. I've seen non-Wikimedia sites do it; we should too. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 21:40, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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::If it's to escape the cold weather the in-vogue place to go is definitely Tatooine. Great beaches, awesome bar scene and locals who can get you anything your heart desires. [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]] ([[User talk:Ibrshao|talk]])
  
:Any chance of providing a [[:en:Wikitravel:Database dump|database dump]] for download at the same time?  Please? [[User:Anjocu|Anjocu]] 23:05, 21 May 2012 (EST)
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:::If you like snow: Michigan is great for the holidays. You can have a small town vibe, but with cultured cities all around. If you don't: The Florida Gulf Coast stays toasty throughout the early winter, and is pretty inexpensive.[[User:IBJoel|IBJoel]] ([[User talk:IBJoel|talk]]) 14:46, 15 November 2016 (EST)
  
==www.airport-china.com==
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::::There are beaches in Tatooine [[User:Ibrshao|Ibrshao]]? I must go then. Michigan hmmm sounds a bit too cold for me, but maybe Miami for Christmas or as [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] suggested, Australia! I've always wanted to go to Brisbane. --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:50, 15 November 2016 (EST)
  
A lot of links to this site have been posted in articles about various Chinese cities. I doubt this is an official airport site, but I'm not completely certain. If it's not, all such links should be deleted. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 22:02, 25 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::If you like snow and Europe, the Alps are the best choice. France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, there are dozens of places where you can enjoy skiing surrounded by beautiful mountains. If you want to escape the winter freeze and you still like Europe, I'd say that [[Andalusia]] in Spain or [[Sicily]] in Italy are both great destinations. Many Europeans choose capital cities to celebrate New Year's but they can be very expensive. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 03:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
  
:At the bottom of the page of http://www.airport-china.com are various advertising links to hotel booking sites and tour guides, there is also a statement of "Power by Lutu ltd.", whose own website states that:  
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:::::: [[Hong Kong]] definitely is one of the best places to be in during Christmas/New Year season: awesome parties, all kinds of carnivals/shows, great shopping opportunities, and the food (some of the best food I've ever tasted). You will never forget your New Year vacation there! So, go to [[Hong Kong]] and party hard!  --[[User:Binbin|Binbin]] ([[User talk:Binbin|talk]]) 08:51, 17 November 2016 (EST)
  
:''Lutu Inc. is the one of the domestic company in China, which fully committed in the business of China Hotel Online Booking Service.''
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:::::::Hong Kong sure sounds like fun! Maybe I'll have to plan a trip there. But Switzerland is also great. I've traveled to there before and fell in love with the snow! Decisions, decisions... --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
  
:These links coupled with the .com rather than .cn top level domain suggest a commercial, rather than government, site.
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We should revive/do a piece on the European Christmas markets...? Do a Google search for Wikitravel Christmas Market and a ton of our existing articles show up that we could link to. Maybe create a TOUR that includes the favorites? [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 20:41, 17 November 2016 (EST)
:The Civil Aviation Authority of China has a website at http://www.caac.gov.cn/.[[User:Travelpleb|Travelpleb]] 10:57, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Deletion of user and talk pages ==
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::I was about to mention the Christmas markets, they have great markets in [[Germany]], but here in [[Portugal]] we have some nice ones too, going to one tomorrow, lovely atmosphere, great entertainment for young and old. We have a nice article for [[Christmas Food]], we could use a similar layout for a list of markets? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 13:34, 19 November 2016 (EST)
  
Every time I'm monitoring the Recent Changes, I notice new users creating accounts then pasting some huge advertising spiel on their user/user talk pages. I understand advertising is completely disallowed, but are these pages meant to be outright deleted? If so, it may help if we had a template for 'Speedy deletions'. All the pages with the template would be put into a category where admins would just delete them without discussion, as they are blatant breaches of guidelines. [[Template:Vfd]] seems to only cover deletions that require discussion and consensus. I'll go ahead and create the template in the few days, if there are no objections, but wanted to also notify admins of the idea.
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:::Great! I say we get started on it then :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 18:08, 21 November 2016 (EST)
  
On an unrelated sidenote, I think the pub is definitely in need of a sweep of items that are at least 3 months old. Any objections to that? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup>
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::::I´m happy to start something for the markets, any suggestions on the format or shall I do the food format? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:28, 22 November 2016 (EST)
  
:I've created [[Template:Delete]] and [[:Category:Speedy deletion candidates]]. Please add it to your watchlist/userspace, admins, so you can keep an eye on it. :) <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 08:11, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:::::That'd be great [[User:Adzas|Adzas]]! Any format you think would be best :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 19:49, 22 November 2016 (EST)
  
:: I don't think a separate template is needed as the VFD tag should be sufficient, and if a speedy deletion is warranted the nomination can state as much.  However, for spambot-created pages no nomination is needed unless the page is overlooked - per [[Wikitravel:Deletion policy#Speedy deletion]] obvious candidates don't require a nomination as it adds extra overhead for nominating and archiving discussion (''"New pages that are plainly spam and that qualify for speedy deletion will be deleted as soon as they are noticed by an administrator, and therefore do not need to be listed on the votes for deletion page. If such a page remains for more than 24 hours, add it to the nominations page as a way to ensure that it isn't overlooked."''). -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:15, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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::::::I created [[Christmas Markets]] for now, work in progress. The layout is there, so all can easily add their favourite market and picture. It does not have to be just Europe, but it´s a start, any further input is welcome! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:38, 23 November 2016 (EST)
  
:Yes, such user pages should be deleted, and I delete them whenever I see them. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 18:20, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::Work in progress still, I added some names and locations (tips from friends living in those places). I will add content but obviously feel free to jump in and make changes, add new locations. [[Germany]] is a popular location for those markets, lets see if we can add a few more different countries. Looking for some pictures now, will be uploaded shortly. Thanks all! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 06:38, 1 December 2016 (EST)
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:::::::Sounds great, thank you! I added the info about Switzerland, but I'll continue adding other info as well :) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 10:42, 1 December 2016 (EST)
  
The pub definitely needs more brooms! Please don't simply sweep everything into an archive, though. Discussions should be swept to the most relevant talk page, per the little sweeping guide at the top of this page.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 12:55, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Pamphlet library anyone? ==
  
::I didn't think it was necessary to list advertisement articles on the VfD page because, as Ryan said, it would involve extra nomination processes and archiving when discussion shouldn't be required. I considered letting an admin know on their talk page, but quite a few new pages popped up. Also, I'll sweep some old dust out of the pub later when I get a chance :) <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 03:45, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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Pamphlets, leaflets.. Brochures?!
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Those paper things you find and collect on all travels - you know exactly which ones :)
  
== Introducing the Wikitravel API ==
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I find that these are often more informative than my guidebooks and internet research, mainly because they are focused on one specific area (especially smaller places) and they almost always come with a great map!
  
Hey there. Just wanted to mention that I've gone and created an [http://wiki-sherpa.appspot.com/api API for Wikitravel], for people who want to use Wikitravel data in other projects. It renders pages as hierarchical JSON objects, with wikimarkup rendered into simple HTML, and includes lists of subpages, geocoding of listings with addresses, etc. There's also a search API and the ability to search for pages and listings near a particular latitude and longitude. Please note, however, that it's very much a beta release; any feedback, suggestions, or bug reports would be most welcome! [[User:Rezendi|Rezendi]] 12:48, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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I realise this suggestion has some difficulties, but will it be possible (and is there an interest), to build an online travel pamphlet library here on Wikitravel? It would also be super to be able to download them to a smartphone.  
  
== Mediawiki upgrade scheduled for 06-June-2012 ==
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Foreseen difficulties like storage space and copyright infringement comes to mind - we might have to contact the creators of said pamphlets and ask permission to load it up here.
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What do you guys think? [[User:TheTasteOfEverything|TheTasteOfEverything]] ([[User talk:TheTasteOfEverything|talk]]) 13:01, 10 December 2016 (EST)
  
Site will be READ-ONLY for up to 2 days while the upgrade is occurring.
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Sounds like a reasonable idea, if feasible. I have many Brochures from many places within Thailand, which will certainly be better than buying a guidebook,especially for those adventurous types who like to wander outside the usual tourist areas.
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[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 11.12.2016
  
If there are edits you'd like to make, please do so asap.
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::Nice idea, but as you say, those printed materials are usually copyright protected, they get outdated quickly and on Wikitravel we don´t link to secondary sources, we want the actual original information in our articles. I would rather invite those who have pamphlets like you mention, to see what specific info is on it and to share it (reworded) here in our articles. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 06:54, 11 December 2016 (EST)
  
When the new site comes online, it will be on new hardware as well. Bug reporting is available here:
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Point taken Adzas. I guess this is what I do, rewording what I see - but, we do not see the detail and pics which the brochures provide. And, are they really copyright protected in Thailand? Like, brochures about particular Temples and similar?
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[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]])
  
http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS
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:I agree with Adzas, we should include useful information from the pamphlets, but reworded. I believe they are copyright protected, but perhaps you can check with the people who created them if it's possible :-) --[[User:IBkataoka|IBkataoka]] ([[User talk:IBkataoka|talk]]) 14:07, 12 December 2016 (EST)
  
If for any reason you need to contact me, I can be reached on my Talk page or my email address paul.obrien at internetbrands.com. Thanks!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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Before putting this suggestion here, I emailed the people who did a nice pamphlet for Kumejima and asked whether I can use their photos and maps on Wikitravel. They replied yesterday saying that it would be nice since they find it difficult to advertise to people outside of Japan! So, there's also that angle of us doing them, the travel destinations, a favour ;P But yeah, copyright... We'd have to ask every time and many will say no. It just occurred to me that it probably isn't copyright infringement to give things out for free that is already being given out for free at the source, right, but by putting it on Wikitravel we will be changing the copyright on the pamphlets, opening them up for everyone to use as they please! ... arrr.. I don't want to see errors in my master plan >_< =P Theoretically, we could just put a different license on the pamphlets?     
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Adzas, I don't think the out of date thing will be such an issue - attractions don't change all that often and people will hopefully upload new pamphlets to replace the old ones. People will probably also read the more updated Wikitravel article anyway. [[User:TheTasteOfEverything|TheTasteOfEverything]] ([[User talk:TheTasteOfEverything|talk]]) 03:22, 13 December 2016 (EST)
  
:Delayed until 06-June-2012--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:11, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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::I still think that adding pamphlets defeats the purpose of Wikitravel, where we want original content in our articles, without too many [[Wikitravel:External links|external links]], [[Wikitravel:Image policy|images]] etc. Our own article should be the pamphlet of a certain location I think. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:10, 12 January 2017 (EST)
  
::Upgrade complete. Please report issues at http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 7 June 2012 (EDT)
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==Weather==
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Is there a preferred format for sharing typical weather for a given destination? [[User:Ozymandias|Ozymandias]] ([[User talk:Ozymandias|talk]]) 16:04, 13 December 2016 (EST)
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:{{Ping|Ozymandias}} Not sure what you have in mind but if you use one method of measuring temperature (e.g. Fahrenheit), please also put the other method in parenthesis (i.e. Celsius). [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 23:15, 17 December 2016 (EST)
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::This is a typical temp/weather box that's used here: http://wikitravel.org/en/Chicago#Climate Enjoy! [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 14:35, 9 January 2017 (EST)
  
== Eratic readings since crash at 5. Juni 2012 in German Wikitravel ==
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== Headings ==
  
Seit dem 7. Juni 2012 werden auf der Deutschen Seite von Wikitravel Informationen zu Sehenswürdigkeiten, Gastronomie und Unterkünften nur noch zum Teil angezeigt. Auch die Darstellung am Beginn eines Artikels hat sich zum Nachteil verändert. Die Hauptseite hat einen aktuellen Stand vom 22. Juni 2011, also fast ein Jahr alt. Auch die Artikelinformationen sind veraltet. Interessierte neue Autoren springen sehr schnell ab und gehen zu [http://www.wikivoyage.org/de/Hauptseite Wikivoyage] über. Dort werden sie herzlichst begrüßt und aufgenommen. Bei Wikitravel werden sie von einen nicht mehr aktiven Administrator gefrustet, der ihre Beiträge ohne Begründung löscht, anstatt ihnen Hilfe anzubieten.
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I am brand new to Wiki and created ny page, then somehow my headings lost their se parathion a and all but the first too be ame on line!  I tried pasting in headings from a different site but nothing works!. They are all in a block! I have also lost the Add Listing button?  [[User:Arlingham|Arlingham]] ([[User talk:Arlingham|talk]]) 19:02, 9 January 2017 (EST)
  
Man bekommt den Eindruck Wikitravel ist gestorben und wird nicht mehr gepflegt. Es ist seit Januar 2012 kein aktiver Administrator mehr tätig. Die Wahl für neue Administratoren ist mangels Interesse gescheitert. Wie soll es weitergehen?  
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:Hello and welcome to Wikitravel!  I currently don't see anything on your userpage. Could you provide more details as to what specific page you are trying to edit? [[User:Tyen|Tyen]] ([[User talk:Tyen|talk]]) 19:05, 9 January 2017 (EST)
  
Please answer at the German Travellers' pub-Site. -- Knut [[Special:Contributions/84.58.160.100|84.58.160.100]] 04:32, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
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M page is Arly but I don't think I have puny it yet I somehow lost all the indentation and had to change the headings to make sense but need to format but can't wo ou what to do?I am having trouble replying as I am using an iPhone and can't see what I am writing!  Y page title is Arlingham! [[User:Arlingham|Arlingham]] ([[User talk:Arlingham|talk]]) 19:24, 9 January 2017 (EST)
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:'''[[Arlingham]]''' I fixed it for you. Some of the headings are still non-standard but they are correctly formatted. Thanks for your additions--I know that typing on those things is a real bear. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 19:48, 9 January 2017 (EST)

Latest revision as of 09:58, 7 February 2017

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

  • If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

Wikitravel Upgrade[edit]

Our site upgraded in June 2016!
We're happy to announce that Wikitravel has been updated to the latest version of mediawiki. We'd appreciate any help to catch and fix any bugs resulting from the update! Simply report bugs on our shared site.

Some of the new changes include:

  • an updated edit toolbar
  • an updated user toolbar
  • notifications
  • table of contents on banners now have dropdowns with sub-sections
  • multimedia galleries on every page
  • a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly
  • many small performance and efficiency changes


ideas for group travel, family that does not get together much[edit]

Hi What a fabulous project! I cannot believe I never found this before. Some of my family wants to get together more often and we are trying to organize a group trip, 5 or so days, prepaid food options, lots of activities, and I don't think we care where we go but some need to keep the costs down. Most of the family is in the north east. Any one have suggestions about places to go, cruises to try, etc.

Hi there! If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Vermont! It's beautiful there and relatively less costly than a lot of places in New England. IBJoel (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Vermont is a great suggestion - especially during foliage. You can check out activities and tours in different locations at PlacePass.com - should help you get inspired!

Hello! Ignore having family trips during Spring months March and April because of Spring Breakers. Cabo San Lucas has many beach hotels with cheap all-inclusive packages and fun water attractions for the kids. Puerto Peñasco aka Rocky Point has many affordable beach houses to rent. Catalina Island is chalk full of family visitors and easily noticeable activities all along the beach. I suggest renting a house or condo near the main city of Avalon. Catalina is my top preference for you because of the darling city and the family-friendly environment. IBrobin (talk) 16:12, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Re: Appearance of external links / Front-Linked listings[edit]

I am a new user and trying to find an answer to what I think is a simple question: What format should external links have? This is one of the most basic things that people would do in the wiki (adding links to sites) and yet I'm seeing an incongruity between formatting and policy. As it stands in the external links help page [1] we should add labels to web pages and I'm fine with that, but then when I use the code for listings (e.g. " < sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep > " ) it automatically goes back to footnotes and I can't seem to change it.

I would not bring this up if it was a recent issue but people have been talking about this (using / not using footnotes; replacing the number of the footnote with a nice icon [2]) since 2007 and yet the code is still doing its same old thing.

As a new user, trying to add info to the site and then having to spend hours (trying to figure out what's going on with external links and why I can't get them to display in the way that I've been told to display them) seems very counter productive and demotivating. It makes me wonder how many other laymen have tried to make changes to pages and then just end up abandoning the whole thing cause guidelines don't match what's really going on and it all just takes to long to find an answer. Latest discussion I've seen about this, just makes it seem as if nothing is being changed and so what [3]

Similarly, the whole discussion about front linked listings has been going on since before 2005 [4] with no clear resolution in the primary guides (help file) on formatting (from what I can see, correct me if I'm wrong). Whilst I at first preferred front links for their aesthetic and simplicity, reading other people's counterpoints make it clear why front links aren't a good idea: As stated by Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT) [5], he points out how some listings appear worse because they don't have hyperlinks or that having longer hyperlinks (thanks to the hyperlinked name being longer) would make them more likely to be clicked.

If icons were to be used (a nice globe icon, easily recognizable as world wide web) this wouldn't need to be a discussion and the points raised would be resolved, using footnotes does solve the issue but people also complain about the aesthetics of it etc. Rhetorical (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2016 (EDT)

Cannot edit my own user page[edit]

Hi I am trying to edit my user page while logged in. I have just created an account so that might be the issue. Error is "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Dark Tower" Is there anyway this can be fixed?

--Wandering Roman (talk) 03:51, 26 May 2016 (EDT)

Hi Wandering Roman, thank you for reaching out here. I've added a test message on your user page just now. Seems okay to me. Can you please try again (please blank my test message) now and let us know if you still have this error? Thank you! --Binbin (talk) 04:19, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry to say that it is still happening. Though I think there is a problem with the back end of the site. Have a look at the Abuse Log and you will see other people are having similar problems. http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:AbuseLog
Thanks for your help. Its very fast.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Looking at the log more closely looks like it was miss-configured and that this has been a reoccurring problem since 2012, though in 2012 the problem was occurring under the filter named The Beaver. You may want to contact IBobi, the administrator to look at the filter list as from what I have read it can only be fixed by admin/bureaucrat groups on WikiTravel
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Hi, are you trying to add a certain link to your user page? The filter you are mentioning is blocking certain links, if you just add text you should be ok. Let us know what exactly you are trying to add ok? Thanks! Adzas (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry, Adzas I am not just trying to post some basic information about my self. There are no internal or external links. Thanks for the help tho.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
I have disabled the Dark Tower abuse filter. Thank you for the heads-up, Wandering Roman! IBobi (talk) 15:56, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

Electric vehicle charging stations on Wikitravel/Autonomous vehicles for the future?[edit]

With these types of cars becoming increasingly popular and fully autonomous vehicles quickly becoming reality, should things such as charging stations be listed? In the future, what about autonomous pickup/dropoff locations as well? --Tyen (talk) 12:48, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

I for one hate driving with a passion especially in Los Angeles, the traffic hell of the universe. Charging stations wouldn't be useful listed on pages as they need specific address locations and individual city pages are too vague. Ibrshao (talk)

I don´t know how many of those charging stations would be available in a location, I think a mention that charging stations are available would be beneficial, but individual listings I don´t think that would be needed, it would be like posting all petrol stations in a location. Just my thought.... Adzas (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2016 (EDT)
True, posting them all would be indeed too much. --Tyen (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2016 (EDT)
Did anyone see that news article about the guy taking up three whole charging spots? IBJoel (talk) 12:59, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

New Update Today![edit]

Woohoo, hopefully everything goes smooth! Tyen (talk) 16:36, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

So far, so good I haven't noticed any problems. Has anything been reported so far? Koavf (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Luckily not too many issues with the switch! IBJoel (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Just a bit of spam but not too bad! Tyen (talk) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
I do an edit, and write an edit summary, but when I try to save it a pop-up asks me to write a another, separate edit summary. Nurg (talk) 04:45, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Well, sometimes it does it, but not always. When it happens, the heading of the pop-up is "Publish to {{SITENAME}}". Nurg (talk) 04:47, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Shared This should definitely be posted to the Pub on Shared. That's a serious bug. Koavf (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
OK. thanks. Nurg (talk) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Space travel[edit]

When it becomes available at what price point will you partake in space travel. Not the near earth orbit/ vomit comet stuff but actually leave the atmosphere to the moon type stuff. 10 thousand? 20 thousand? Ibrshao (talk)

Honestly, I can't even handle rollercoasters, so I'm not sure how well I'd do when pulling the Gs of space flight. And I mean, there's enough stuff on the planet I need to see IBJoel (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2016 (EDT)
I think once the technology allows the cost to be more reasonable, I'll be willing to spend 1k Tyen (talk) 13:51, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

If you were stranded alone on any island in the world, which island would you want it would be?[edit]

Imagine all islands are now deserted, left only with the remaining amenities left behind by its former dwellers. (think zombie apocalypse) IBrobin (talk) 13:39, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

I'd have to go with the old standard: Hawaii. Lots of rain, lots of sun, great views. I can think of worse places to spend the rest of my life (although hopefully a few other people can stop by, so it's not so lonely haha). IBJoel (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
Judging by google earth, Anuta island (part of the solomon islands) looks pretty cozy! Tyen (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
The Americas please!!!!!! Ibrshao (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Bora Bora!!! Adzas (talk) 11:49, 13 September 2016 (EDT)

[edit]

I just want to ask - what is the criteria for the banner photographs and what they can be of for the articles on Wikitravel? The main thing I noted was a banner photo of the wrong place, as I noted on the talk page! Wetter88 (talk) 12:17, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

Banners Wetter88, there are no hard and fast rules, except for the size and ratio of the photo. It's best to choose something engaging and illustrative and those can change over time if someone finds a better one. Koavf (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
I noticed that the banner picture on the Woking article wasn't in Woking, so I was wondering whether this meant it was invalid as it was the wrong place! Wetter88 (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Hi, you're right, the Woking banner is wrong. We will create a new corrected one very soon (unless you want to try and create a new one). Thanks, GiulioC (talk) 05:02, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Accuracy It's definitely better to have a photo that really represents the place you're going. Personally, I'm not very hung up on it, especially if the photo is of somewhere nearby or comparable. This example is just a busy train station--honestly, I don't think anyone will be disappointed if he gets to Woking and this scene isn't there. Koavf (talk) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Fitness Around the World[edit]

I'm US-based, and (especially in California) we have a major fitness sub-culture. Weightlifting, yoga, running, and the outdoors are all very big here. I was wondering about the fitness cultures of other countries and how those display themselves. Like here, running and physique are definitely the major areas, then probably yoga. What about Europe? Asia? How do different countries express their physicality? IBJoel (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

I like the British way-- http://www.slate.com/articles/life/fitness/2011/01/fitness_for_foreigners.html Ibrshao (talk) 17:57, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Interesting article, to be sure! IBJoel (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Embassy and consulate listings[edit]

What are your thoughts on having the embassy and consulate listings in the "Cope" sections of the main pages of every city? These listings also include code for the flag icons and add a lot bytes to the size of every page. They are also very distracting in the cases of some cities that have over 100 listings in this section and are rarely useful for the average traveler. I don't think many travelers will rely on wikitravel if they run into trouble or need a visa as most countries have a certain procedure for addressing these issues and travelers will visit the webpage of the applicable embassy via a google search. —The preceding comment was added by 50.195.72.217 (talkcontribs)

I agree. I remember in the past we had a discussion about this, let me see what I can find about it. Adzas (talk) 05:09, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
I think that these listings are most useful in the non-capital cities like Denver or Manchester. A traveller might be able get a visa needed for later when in such a city, and would probably not have though of looking for a consulate there. Conversely a list is probably not so useful in London where you would expect almost every country to have an embassy. AlasdairW (talk) 17:14, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
That can be addressed by noting the countries that have embassies/consulates in a single sentence for these smaller cities.

Site usage data[edit]

Hi Folks,

I have a quick question, is it possible to get page view counts for a particular period, from Wikitravel? For example, could I get a list of the top locations that are searched for on WT and associate a location with them? Kind of thinking of a heatmap for WT page popularity for london.

Thanks, Omar

Hi Omar, I'm terribly sorry about the delayed response, but that is a great idea! Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of feature at the moment. However, I will do my best to see if that's something we can implement in the near future. I will most definitely keep you updated and you'll be the first to know! IBkataoka (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

Conflict Photojournalism[edit]

Hello Everyone,

First and foremost I'm aware of the dangers present, please do not convince me not to do this, although you could suggest similar career paths. Lately I've been interested in photographers in poverty/war/conflict stricken areas. I'm not interested in the dangers per se but I am interested how people act in wartime and other dire situations. Let this be a place where we can discuss these things. Is anyone a photojournalist in the first place? Misuta trent (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2016 (EDT)Trent

Hi Misuta! That sounds like a very interesting career path. It reminds me of HONY (Humans of New York) where he interviewed Syrian refugees and American veterans affected by PTSD. It's crazy to think that these amazing/sad/inspirational stories are coming from people we see on the streets. What made you want to pursue this particular career path? IBkataoka (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

External Links Style, two interpretations[edit]

Hello. Some time ago i came across 2 different interpretations of external links style policy. Some admins approved the "blue bold clickable“ external link style (avoiding footnotes) and encouraged me to revert footnotes to "blue bold clickable“ style, while some other admins reverted existing "blue bold clickable“ external links back to "footnote“ style. Also deleted some edits by other users who added listings in "blue bold clickable“ style stating it was "bad format“, although it exactly conformed the example presented on WT policy page. Would like to know which interpretation is now valid and correct.

And would like to avoid off-topic comments about external links content, formatting and other policy because i ask about external links style. I know WT policy too, no need to redirect me to those pages which i already know well. Those two opposite interpretations coexist in written policy, it‘s like some of those policy texts are slightly incoplete or something, but when it comes to adding useful info which is encouraged by one admin but deleted by other admin, i start to feel as if WT is busy with anything else but not with creating a proper guide. How to be a useful contributor if even to trust admin is risky. Could someone provide a strict statement which external link style must be used, a "blue bold clickable“ one or a "footnote“ one? Local

And sorry, but where is a "sign" button after the site was upgraded? Local

Hi Local thanks for stopping by! I'm one of new hired admins overseeing Wikitravel from Internet Brands. I'm aware that you previously discussed this issue with several admins and it was brought to my attention by Triskelle not too long ago. Despite some confusion, we are allowed to use both the "blue bold clickable" style and the "footnote" style for listings. Upon discussing this with Triskelle, we decided that it was in our best interest to stick to the footnote style for the Vilnius page. Most listings on this page used a combination of the two formats so I've been fixing it to reflect the footnote style listings. However, the only time footnote styles are not allowed is when a user is trying to link to a source to prove a point or back up a fact. Hope this answers your question! Also you can sign off using "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Let me know if you need more clarifications, I'd be happy to answer them. IBkataoka (talk) 19:36, 16 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for matter-of-fact answer. Vilnius article or not Vilnius article it's irrelevant to me - can you confirm that previous policy change (March 2013) which made a switch from the "footnote" style to the "blue bold clickable" style is not valid anymore (with that exception you pointed out) and the corresponding policy page will be modified accordingly? Now it is only your "private answer" to my "private question", so to speak, i have no reason not to trust your explanation just don't see (so far) how it reflects on written policy (i.e. it does not reflect now). There was similar confusion back in 2013 but the policy page was quickly modified immediately when agreement among admins was met. As for the Vilnius article, you probably don't know all details, it was a Washington, D.C. article (a star one) which was taken as an example of how a nice article should look like. And Vilnius article was formatted after it. Discussions about it can be found in corresponding archived talk page. Can you confirm that Washington, D.C. article, in this respect, now can't be taken as such example? (I assume you do confirm). I ask for those details because there are no other confirmations of what you were discussing with that other admin, only those few lines above. I just want to be sure that i understand correctly. Whether it is this style or that style is irrelevant to me, i just want to be sure which one and that it won't be changed soon to the other one again. So thanks so far for your brief clarification, it is useful. And i assume there is no a "sign button" anymore, one have to sign only manually, is that correct? I'm a bit surprised that after the upgrade one have to do more manual work LOL... Local (talk) 06:58, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
MediaWiki help In case some of how the site works seems confusing, there is a wiki just about the software as well. That site may be able to help you but you can also ask for assistance here. Koavf (talk) 03:14, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for that link, at least so far i don‘t see how, why and when to use it (i know how to navigate and edit), but there are many (too many) little confusing things (maybe too little to bother admins with), and one, for example, is about recent upgrade, namely it reads above: "a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly". Is it about the option "Upload a picture" – the WT Shared page opens, then it reads "Upload Wizard" but it‘s pending, nothing happens – is it about it? When i open WT Shared and click "Upload a file" – the same good old upload page opens, it seems everything OK, will it work if i decide to upload a picture? I have uploaded many pictures to WT Shared previously so the "procedure" is no problem, and i have a little pile of new pictures i was going to upload later. Judging by how the "Upload a file" option works i will be able to, and judging by how the "Upload a picture" option works i won‘t be able to upload using this option. Is that correct? Because if that is correct, the statement at the top of this page seems misleading, it implies that currently any upload of pictures is temporalily impossible. Local (talk) 07:46, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Uploads There is an upload wizard that is being deployed (I have no insider information on this) and if it's like at Commons, it will not replace the standard method but complement it. Are there more things confusing or misleading about this wiki? I'd like to help if I can. Koavf (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Aha, it won't replace the existing method, that's clear then. I know that wizard at Wikimedia Commons, i uploaded many pictures there. Well, i always appreciate any practical help from anyone and so far i have implemented it (all that i've learned from some of admins) in the form of texts or parts of texts, including some listings, here on WT, so some travelers could avoid some misunderstandings or so. Still it looks like a swamp to me.
By "confusions" i mean things that i encountered from the very beginning when i decided to correct some mistakes, and later to add this and that, and later implementing advices of admins, and later implementing advices of other admins and that's not mentioning conflicting or duplicated expressions (statements) on policy pages. I tell that as a user who was willing to make this guide more usefull. Those little confusions are the actual obstacles. I feel that i will give up, like many other potential contributors that i have encountered. I don't know if this is a proper place to clearify such small things? Two examples of such actual obstacles (it's like anecdotes, actually). First one, banners. It reads: "If you'd like to update an article's banner with a new image, please post on that article's talk page. Make sure the community and admin team are in agreement that the new image should be featured." Looks clear, so i, as a newbie, uploaded banner to the article's discussion page. After a while one of admins transfered it to the article itself. So i uploaded several more banners with no problems and no objections. Then i came across that some banners depict other localities, i found out why admins who uploaded them made such mistakes (there were some mistakes made by the Flickr photographers too), understood their way of thinking and understood that they do not know pecularities of location while i do know. Here starts the anecdote: according to banner guidelines, admins can't make mistakes. There is only option "If you'd like to update banner" (a bit sarcastically). Well, i accept that, authorities is authorities, so i wanted to "update" those banners, made the relevant ones and uploaded in corresponding discussion pages, provided brief explanations - and started to wait when "the community and admin team will be in agreement that the new images should be featured". Still waiting. I think, it's more than a year already, so not so long. What else should i do? I can easily replace wrong banners with correct ones, but one of admins made a clever remark to my comment: "you know, the existing banner looks better, i think". So, authorities is authorities, i don't argue. I want to reach agreement untill i make any moves. Because i constantly see how relevant info (including pictures) are deleted or reverted due to the lack of competence. This is not bad, anyone can make mistakes. Me too. I am used to this way to solve such situation: someone makes a mistake, another one points out, and then the one who made the mistake corrects it. This is normal in my business. But WT does not have any guideline that explains how to behave when you see the mistake you can't so simply correct, let alone mistake made by admin. Second anecdote. Say, i need help. Policy pages and guidelines tell "do that", "don't do that", and supposedly there are all answers to all possible questions, and if the question still arise one can post it at the Pub. What if it's silly question, or say, uncomfortable question like mine (just look to the amount of my text above) - it would be useful to receive a sort of "private consultation" or something. No. Don't bother admins, read policy. If you don't understand, learn english. It took several month to discover that polite and formal "Please feel free to contact me..." which is a sort of a private attitude or just a formal expression on admin user's pages, because such legal possibility does not exist in policy. I was reading policy, why should i look at admin's pages? Why stranger who want to learn how to edit properly should look to admins pages? One of admins politely agreed to answer my questions but i suspect finally got annoyed with my ignorance. Can't complain, it was a favour. Do you now offer me similar favour? It's a swamp, i generally tend to obey policy, which is a real swamp and i actually don't understand how it can be advantageous to WT or IB or anyone else to maintain it in current state. If policy had no conflicting and semi-duplicated sections and statemens it would be beneficial to all, and the new (potential) contributors would act in more reasonable way, at least many of them. Let alone misunderstandings between admins and regular users. So, is it a proper place to be helpful? My talk page would be a good place to me but nobody will reply there, and your talk page will be ruined with such ridiculous amount of texts, just look to my reply LOL. Anyway, i'd like to obey policy, i don't want to criticize or edit it, this is not for me. My little questions are endless, i don't dare to post them here. Plus that new admin didn't reply, probably he won't. I'd be glad if that what was mentioned here by me would be solved LOL Local (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Help I'd be happy to help, Local. Obviously, if you are willing to put forth this much effort, you are willing to do some work to make this travel guide better. You can always post to my talk if you want or email me directly if you would prefer to not post it on a public forum. Koavf (talk) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks. Actually i was falling asleep when i was writing all this, so don't know what actual impression it made LOL... I'll have in mind what you say. Now it's not urgent because admin IBkataoka didn't confirm any detail i was asking above, at least so far. So i won't edit now because editing (or adding new info) involves some listings, and those listings have certain style, i.e. 2 possible styles, one of which is described in policy as a "must", while according to opinion of admin one must stick to another style. I don't want to do a double work, let admins do it if they see sense in that. So i'll simply wait and see. I can explain why opinion of admin is not sufficient: there is no any paragraph in written policy about double standards where guidelines are provided with explanation when one must stick to general policy, and when personal opinion of admin applies. So if now i start to write something and use the footnote style - someone else may revert or delete everything (or part), and he will be right because i violate existing policy. But i can see that potentially i may have actual "technical" questions in the future, i almost know what kind of. So i will contact you at your talk page, thanks. But so far i give up, i'm too busy to let me involve into confusions created by others :) Local (talk) 09:30, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Hey Local! Sorry about the delayed respond, but rest assured I wasn't ignoring you :) I've taken some time to figure out the best answers and options to help clarify policies regarding Wikitravel. I understand your frustration- few policies that exist now can contradict other policies and some even clash with each other. The admins and I are going to work together to re-edit some of the policies to make information more easily understandable. In the amidst of all this confusion, admins do and will make mistakes from time to time and that's okay! Since we are all human, it's pretty inevitable. We do however, try our best to keep mistakes to a minimum though. Also, there is NO such thing as a silly question-ever. We encourage questions and discussions such as these because that's what the Traveller's Pub is all about! And Wikitravel wouldn't be where we are today without the help and keen eye from our wonderful users.
Which brings me to the next issue. The sign off button that existed before have temporarily disappeared and the Upload Wizard is currently down, but we're glad you pointed this out to us because we are now working hard to get both back up and running. So thank you for pointing that out to us.
As for the external link style as I have stated before, we are allowed to use both formats. The only time footnotes are not allowed is when someone is trying to support their arguments or prove their information. The listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy. Yes, I also understand you are well aware of all the policies but this is the one I strongly urge you to follow. Because of this, many pages will need re-editing, but with the help of the admins and fellow Wikitravelers, we will able to restore the pages accordingly. If you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know! I would love to further discuss them with you and the rest of Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Oh and one more thing I forgot to add. Banners. Would the best solution be creating a central banner page where users can submit their banners? This would be a page that admins will check everyday. Let me know what you think! IBkataoka (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
No need to be sorry ;) . Really appreciate your professional response. And professional approach. So far it was like dealing with kindergarten kids, except Aleksandra who alone obviously couldn't be responsible for all nonsenses of others. Your comments are crystal clear. Your attitude regarding footnote vs blue-bold-clickable style is crystal clear, and even the reason why it is such is clear to me. Also, i think i see the reason why my attitude regarding those styles seems not exactly clear for you, let alone others. So i do not have and didn't have complaints, thus how everything will be solved (this way or that way) is not my business, that is, i don't insist that this or that must be solved in this or that way. So i close my questions - you have answered them, and now i'll simply comment few things, as if responding to your "if you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know!".
  • Banners. I don't trust admin team and don't care about their competence because i'm perfectly competent myself to judge about technical and aesthetic qualities of banners, pictures, composition of them within text, aesthetics and composition of text with and without graphics, value of templates, how and why templates make impact on general appearance, and how details and specifics of formatting of both text and images make impact on the whole, that is, on general appearance of the page; also what is primary and secondary for the guide and how it fit or don't fit policy and guidelines. So, first of all, criteria provided at banner upload page are pretty sane, or normal if you like. I know that my banners meet all requirements and know why they do, and why there may be some doubts at some points - this is because for some particular places it is very difficult to find a proper source to create the banner, the sources (photos, that is) are scarce and i know that they are scarce and why. I, to be honest, do not need advices in this respect; my questions about banners were triggered by my bad experiences and distrust. Which turned out to be sane tactics. So i don't know - do you experience some confusions with users who make banners? That is, are there cases when they make wrong or inappropriate banners? I can say that initially, when banners were just introduced (not so long ago), i experienced one inconvenience, asked at Pub twice and received the reply of admin once, reply was off-topic and useless. By that time there were only few banners, now there are many but the question is still relevent to some extent: where are they? I don't talk about pages - where are the banners stored? I store my banners among my uploads at WT Shared. The point is that it is very useful to have a possibility to see them all (created by others) at one glance. When you see them all (like google search images, for example) you can judge about both whole and details in all aspects: content, aesthetics, trend. You then can judge yourself what are the requirements, what is considered "nice" and "appropriate". So they must be already approved by admin team. This would be genuinely useful. Maybe it could be just display, while they could be stored where they are now.
  • Footnote vs blue-bold-clickable styles. You say "listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy" and I know why you do but you don'y know why i stubbornly don't want to accept that. At least i have such impression - do you see where the point is? In chronology and laziness. Did you check chronology and did you take into account human laziness? I now don't ask anything nor complain about something - i simply tell you in playfull manner what one can clearly see if he properly investigates the issue. I take into account that you are a new admin, i am newbie too so there are not so much differences in some aspects. So, initially there were only footnotes, it was not even a style but simply the "technical solution" or so. One option, one style. And all policy was written accordingly, there were neither confusions nor doubts nor misunderstandings in this respect because external links were supposed to be placed in those footnotes, sorry my english vocabulary is very limited, especially when it comes down to "technical" expressions, so please take that into account. Then, both WT community and admin team, found that the footnot style is visually annoying and practically inconvenient. Arguments were provided. Small discussion took place. No objections were raised. Aleksandra approved - but i have to say that i have no clue whether others were aware about this decision at all, i assume they are obliged to be aware but i think they simply silently accept such things and immediately forget. This is about 2012/2013, i also want to point out that your friend from Russia became admin later. So - i stress that - needful corrections on appropriate policy page were made. They still present. There is some pecularity: everything was designend, especially at "technical" point, that external links can be reached using footnotes, so if you want to make a blue-bold-clickable external link you have to do that manually. I don't know - maybe after recent upgrade this was improved? I don't see much difference, manually or not manually, simply when something works automatically it is more obvious. But this is secondary because the policy is primary. Changes in policy were made and requirements were described extremely clear, citation: "No footnotes. Travel guides do not use footnotes!". I was and am constantly pointing this requirement of policy because any other opinions are just private opinions and violate WT policy. Create a section of double standards or revert those changes or make other appropriate changes instead. It would be professional. Now it is a kindergarten. So, i continue about external links style. Here laziness comes into force: appropriate changes about style were made, having in mind that this applies to all external links. Now see - all policy is written in footnote style, to edit entire policy is a decent work, to say the least. So it was supposed that if policy has proper description about external link styles, it should be sufficient and everything else goes without saying. So let's see Listings page: humble change was made there too - "the URL for the official Web site for this listed entry. To display properly as a working, clickable hyperlink, either http:// or https:// must be included before the rest of the URL! (see external links for more guidelines)". Nothing special, one should see what kind of edit was made at 18:27, 15 March 2013 right after changing the Style Policy - very minimal correction, editor had in mind that the new style policy applies and this goes without saying. Isn't all that sufficient and doesn't it go without saying? Now the new admin comes. Indeed, why it should go without saying, all policy is written in footnote style, all articles have footnote styles, so what should here go without saying? In my oppinion, here should go without saying that admin team can't be a kindergarten, and that private opinions are not even secondary - they are nothing. And i indeed lost my temper during that silly conversation with your russian friend. I had idea to improve some articles of RU WT, but now not interested. So I continue. Blue-bold-clicable style was some sort of novelty, having in mind that all articles will be gradually changed from footnote style to blue-bold-clickable style. So both styles coexist, but since all texts are experiencing edits from time to time, it was expected that all footnotes will be smoothly replaced with blue-bold-clickable links. Like you pointed out - "many pages will need re-editing" LOL. Are you aware what you are re-editing and why? If you have professional approach, relax first, make appropriate changes in policy, then act according to the policy. Your choice what and how to edit in policy, but i have to say that if your coworkers didn't explain everything what i have told you here - this is not admin team, it's a kindergarten. Local (talk) 08:41, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
Hi Local! Glad you stayed around to discuss this with me further. The admin team is a group of one the hardest working people that I know and although you may disagree, I know that they are doing their best. We may have had some miscommunication here and there, but please don't blame them. I assure you that from here and on we will all be on the same page. I sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for all the stress Wikitravel has caused you so far. As I've stated before, the admin team and I will need to thoroughly re-vist some of the policies and edit them accordingly so please be patient with us :) I will be sure to take your suggestions/comments and keep them at the top of my mind! Especially having the option to view all the banners made by users in one glance (That's a great idea!) I do however, still stand by my external link format that I've stated earlier. I'm glad that you find my reasoning for them crystal clear. Should you choose to accept them, I hope that you will continue to stick around to make contributions and edits to Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 12:42, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
As some of the edits that are mentioned above were done so long ago, it is hard to remember all details. I would just like to add something about the changing of banners (and other information). Usually if you see incorrect information, everyone here is entitled to change information, as long as you put a reason in the comment field, so all understand why something was removed/changed. With the banners, many people spent a lot of time finding pictures and uploading them, so just changing a banner because you don´t like a picture we don´t do, we try to discuss first on the discussion page of the article, in order to respect all editors here. Obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion. We always try to answer any questions asked by users, at times questions are not seen due to high amount of spam, some edits are auto patrolled and only seen later etc etc, so if you don´t get an answer somewhere, feel free to send a message to a user or admin directly, that usually works. The external link discussion has been going on for a while, mainly because the "add listing" format comes up with the footnote style and it could not be changed at the time of discussion (tech issue). There were other priorities to focus on, and to be honest, my priority has been content, and when editing a page and I notice something totally against our policies I will change it. That´s why it is so great to have so many editors here, one looks specifically at the policies, one looks at content, another looks at pictures etc etc. Since the latest upgrade there is much less spam so all of us will have more time to look at the details, on the EN version and on the language versions too. Participating here is not meant to be stressful, enjoy it, we all work together on this great project. Adzas (talk) 09:45, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks Adzas for your matter-of-fact comment, there is nothing to disagree with, it all goes without saying, so to say. You told some totally new things that i didn't know. This guide (WT) is rather widely used, i know that from some travel forums, and from those forums i discovered that source of some misleading info comes from WT (there may be more sources of course). So basically i'm interested in content too, and one of annoying things was that admins revert correct content to outdated content and provide explanations (different in different cases), and those explanations always are statement that this edit is totally against policies. I don't want to focus now on this (it's endless), i'd like to clearify those new to me things in more detail, say, some things about those banners. This is quite handy example. Your statement: "obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion." . So this is a case, this is what i wanted to do. To me no discussion is needed, just i expect that admin will come and revert it, stating that my "knowledge" is wrong because he knows better (or so, i'm simplifying). So, to prevent that, i posted simple question, something like "this one is wrong" and "let me know if i can replace it with the right one" (actual coment was longer). That is, i wanted and still want to reach agreement before i make any move, no discussion is needed. It was rather long ago indeed, i stopped editing because i don't know how to behave with those wrong banners. Wrong by content, not because i didn't like it. It was admin who didn't like correct one. So, as you see, it's such a simple thing and everyting turns into such a mess because there is no clear guidance what to do in case of mistakes. That option "if you want to update the banner", well, it is more relevant to photos that illustrate the text, while banner is more for representation, but yes, this option is usefull, but it does imply that existing banner is still correct, still represents the article, and may be replaced with simillarly correct one but with more qualities etc. While wrong content, incorrect location is a different thing. I assume it's a rare exception. Maybe even hardly possible. But still. If this is some obscure station (like in other discussion above) i agree that this is not very relevant but why not to replace it if you can make a correct one... and besides, this would be professional approach. But i talk about panoramic landscapes, manors, castles - i agree with you in all details, that is, that such banner should be replaced, but how one can do that if policy does not explain how and whether this is allowed? Once it's absent in policy - it goes without saying that this is not allowed. I assume(d), this is a prerogative of admin team. It would be quite normal. Editing is editing, adding new text or images is still editing, but mistakes left because of lack of knowledge, competence, by mistake, intentionally is a different thing, it's not always clear that and whether this is an actual mistake (otherwise it would not be left). So it would be normal if admin team has prerogative to deal with all obscure mistakes of content that occur. My attempt to clearify that ended in stern silence. Long or not long ago, it's secondary - it could be many more recent misunderstandings that ended in silence, just i got fed up. Now summer ended, i decided to try to clearify some things. So who can correct mistakes, like in case with those banners? Anyone? Or admin team? Or anyone can report to admin team and they will take care? I don't ask to answer, i'd like to see what policy says :) . Maybe there is some explanation, i could miss it, that's quite possible. I just want to add about that what is "obvious", like in your saying about banners with incorrect locations - there were many obvious things to me, but when admin says that for him it's obvious that he's right and i'm wrong and provide arguments that illustrate certain gap in his certain knowledge - what one should do then? This turns your reasonable advice to behave reasonably and sanely into impasse. And that is what wasted majority of my time on WT. Local (talk) 15:59, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Admin issues Local, I can't speak to any other admins but I am an admin here and I am not affiliated with Internet Brands. If you feel like someone did something wrong or that you simply don't understand, you can of course contact him directly or if you want an outside perspective, you can ask me. I'm glad you're here and have been here for awhile--I hope you want to continue contributing. If you'd like, you can send me an email. Koavf (talk) 16:08, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Thanks again for your input Local. Sorry you feel your time is wasted here, we appreciate anyone´s input and edits. For future edits, just plunge forward, also with banners. We are all human, we can all make mistakes, admin on this site too, so as Koavf says, if you feel you are not getting a response or the incorrect response or there are doubts, contact an admin directly. We are looking forward to further edits from you! Adzas (talk) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Wait, wait, i assume there is no policy that allows to "contact directly", no? It's a bit anecdotically but i was reading "Plunge forward" policy a minute ago and guessing what does this mean: "Ignoring authority....Don't bother asking...". Maybe there is no doubts for you, but policy tells quite different... LOL .. I'll better wait for the updated policy version and see. If won't die until that LOL.. Local (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
You are always welcome to contact an admin directly as Koavf and Adzas have suggested. But yes! Please do stick around for some updates and we hope it's to your liking :) Cheers! IBkataoka (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
IBkataoka, thanks for your polineness and good will, I appreciate it, but clarity in our "semi-private" conversation is not a policy; i'm now starting to suspect that i was wrong thinking that admin team should act more reasonably - how and why to act reasonably if policy is a mess... LOL Local (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
This project has been running pretty well since 2003 with the policies/guidelines that are currently in place. Times change so policies/guidelines could be updated where necessary, but I don´t think they are a mess, sorry again you feel that way. As IBkataoka says, some updates are looked at so probably best to take it from there. Happy editing! Adzas (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Evil website wants to steal your content[edit]

The evil website that started with stolen content wants to steal even more content. I cannot link because of the filter, but you know which website I am talking about. —The preceding comment was added by 62.212.73.246 (talkcontribs)

Fork The content forked to another site is totally within the bounds of the license that Evan and Maj chose for this project. 62.212.73.246, there is nothing "evil" about reproducing it (and building upon it as well)--it's part of the purpose of Wikitravel/voyage. Koavf (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
I wouldn't say duplicating this site is "Evil", just pointless—The preceding comment was added by 109.156.38.138 (talkcontribs)

External links to printable PDF maps[edit]

I would like to add links to printable maps I created on Inkatlas (example), but it seems like this is against the current External Links policy. I think a free, detailed, up to date printable atlas is something that's very useful to travellers. There is no way to include this external content in Wikitravel itself. Are such links, in fact, against the policy? If so, can an exception/change be made? Full disclosure: inkatlas.com is a project I'm working on in my spare time. Kontextify (talk) 10:57, 14 October 2016 (EDT)

Hi Kontextify, thanks for expressing your concern! I agree with you, a map is an important tool to travellers. However, external links such as yours have been reverted because it requires a user to go to your page and download the map in a PDF format. Popular pages such as Manhattan and San Francisco already have maps displayed within the pages that users can refer to. We do appreciate you looking out for fellow travelers though! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:21, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
I do appreciate the maps already included in articles, but I find they're often too small or not detailed enough to serve as a proper paper map of a place. Would it not be useful to link to a detailed printable map in addition to having the embedded ones? For example, articles about national parks and similar destinations can have links to printable maps with trails and terrain data (useful for hiking). Unfortunately, there seems to be no way of adding the PDF directly to Wikitravel. Kontextify (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
Adding files In fact, these maps are made from OpenStreetMap data, which we can add to Shared. The licensing is not a problem. Koavf (talk) 22:05, 17 October 2016 (EDT)

Destination of the Month[edit]

The end of the month is right around the corner, which calls for a new Destination of the Month! If you have any suggestions on where it should be for the month of November, be sure to stop by the Destination of the Month page and nominate a place! Cheers :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 19:41, 20 October 2016 (EDT)

North America In the United States, it is Thanksgiving season, so something related to our colonial history or the harvest would be appropriate. Additionally, it's autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, so somewhere that has beautiful vistas for seeing the leaves change could be good. Alternately, we could go the exact opposite route and encourage our Northerner readers to hit the beaches of New Zealand or Tuvalu... Koavf (talk) 21:21, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
That's a good idea Koavf! Do you know of any nice places in particular? --IBkataoka (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
User:IBkataoka Not off-hand. Of course, the trick is that we would need to have a germane destination that also has high-quality content here. Koavf (talk) 23:00, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
Agreed, Koavf. I'll have to do some digging and researching then :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2016 (EDT)
I don´t know the area too well, but I remember the beautiful colours of the leaves this time of year in New England, maybe pick a location there? No beautiful leave colours but Portugal is also still nice to visit in November. More chance of rain but overall still lovely temperatures and sunny days. Adzas (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2016 (EDT)
Awesome, thanks for your input Adzas! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2016 (EDT)

Upcoming Holiday Travels[edit]

With some of our favorite holidays coming up, what are some of the best places to visit around Christmas and the New Year? Or maybe even to escape the holidays? I'm open to any suggestions! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2016 (EST)

It's usually so expensive to travel during those months but If I had a choice (as a person from california) I would go to Australia to escape the winter weather! Tyen (talk) 14:40, 15 November 2016 (EST)
If it's to escape the cold weather the in-vogue place to go is definitely Tatooine. Great beaches, awesome bar scene and locals who can get you anything your heart desires. Ibrshao (talk)
If you like snow: Michigan is great for the holidays. You can have a small town vibe, but with cultured cities all around. If you don't: The Florida Gulf Coast stays toasty throughout the early winter, and is pretty inexpensive.IBJoel (talk) 14:46, 15 November 2016 (EST)
There are beaches in Tatooine Ibrshao? I must go then. Michigan hmmm sounds a bit too cold for me, but maybe Miami for Christmas or as Tyen suggested, Australia! I've always wanted to go to Brisbane. --IBkataoka (talk) 14:50, 15 November 2016 (EST)
If you like snow and Europe, the Alps are the best choice. France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, there are dozens of places where you can enjoy skiing surrounded by beautiful mountains. If you want to escape the winter freeze and you still like Europe, I'd say that Andalusia in Spain or Sicily in Italy are both great destinations. Many Europeans choose capital cities to celebrate New Year's but they can be very expensive. GiulioC (talk) 03:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)
Hong Kong definitely is one of the best places to be in during Christmas/New Year season: awesome parties, all kinds of carnivals/shows, great shopping opportunities, and the food (some of the best food I've ever tasted). You will never forget your New Year vacation there! So, go to Hong Kong and party hard! --Binbin (talk) 08:51, 17 November 2016 (EST)
Hong Kong sure sounds like fun! Maybe I'll have to plan a trip there. But Switzerland is also great. I've traveled to there before and fell in love with the snow! Decisions, decisions... --IBkataoka (talk) 14:57, 17 November 2016 (EST)

We should revive/do a piece on the European Christmas markets...? Do a Google search for Wikitravel Christmas Market and a ton of our existing articles show up that we could link to. Maybe create a TOUR that includes the favorites? IBobi (talk) 20:41, 17 November 2016 (EST)

I was about to mention the Christmas markets, they have great markets in Germany, but here in Portugal we have some nice ones too, going to one tomorrow, lovely atmosphere, great entertainment for young and old. We have a nice article for Christmas Food, we could use a similar layout for a list of markets? Adzas (talk) 13:34, 19 November 2016 (EST)
Great! I say we get started on it then :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 18:08, 21 November 2016 (EST)
I´m happy to start something for the markets, any suggestions on the format or shall I do the food format? Adzas (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2016 (EST)
That'd be great Adzas! Any format you think would be best :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2016 (EST)
I created Christmas Markets for now, work in progress. The layout is there, so all can easily add their favourite market and picture. It does not have to be just Europe, but it´s a start, any further input is welcome! Adzas (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2016 (EST)
Work in progress still, I added some names and locations (tips from friends living in those places). I will add content but obviously feel free to jump in and make changes, add new locations. Germany is a popular location for those markets, lets see if we can add a few more different countries. Looking for some pictures now, will be uploaded shortly. Thanks all! Adzas (talk) 06:38, 1 December 2016 (EST)
Sounds great, thank you! I added the info about Switzerland, but I'll continue adding other info as well :) --IBkataoka (talk) 10:42, 1 December 2016 (EST)

Pamphlet library anyone?[edit]

Pamphlets, leaflets.. Brochures?! Those paper things you find and collect on all travels - you know exactly which ones :)

I find that these are often more informative than my guidebooks and internet research, mainly because they are focused on one specific area (especially smaller places) and they almost always come with a great map!

I realise this suggestion has some difficulties, but will it be possible (and is there an interest), to build an online travel pamphlet library here on Wikitravel? It would also be super to be able to download them to a smartphone.

Foreseen difficulties like storage space and copyright infringement comes to mind - we might have to contact the creators of said pamphlets and ask permission to load it up here. What do you guys think? TheTasteOfEverything (talk) 13:01, 10 December 2016 (EST)

Sounds like a reasonable idea, if feasible. I have many Brochures from many places within Thailand, which will certainly be better than buying a guidebook,especially for those adventurous types who like to wander outside the usual tourist areas. Avemario (talk) 11.12.2016

Nice idea, but as you say, those printed materials are usually copyright protected, they get outdated quickly and on Wikitravel we don´t link to secondary sources, we want the actual original information in our articles. I would rather invite those who have pamphlets like you mention, to see what specific info is on it and to share it (reworded) here in our articles. Adzas (talk) 06:54, 11 December 2016 (EST)

Point taken Adzas. I guess this is what I do, rewording what I see - but, we do not see the detail and pics which the brochures provide. And, are they really copyright protected in Thailand? Like, brochures about particular Temples and similar? Avemario (talk)

I agree with Adzas, we should include useful information from the pamphlets, but reworded. I believe they are copyright protected, but perhaps you can check with the people who created them if it's possible :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 14:07, 12 December 2016 (EST)

Before putting this suggestion here, I emailed the people who did a nice pamphlet for Kumejima and asked whether I can use their photos and maps on Wikitravel. They replied yesterday saying that it would be nice since they find it difficult to advertise to people outside of Japan! So, there's also that angle of us doing them, the travel destinations, a favour ;P But yeah, copyright... We'd have to ask every time and many will say no. It just occurred to me that it probably isn't copyright infringement to give things out for free that is already being given out for free at the source, right, but by putting it on Wikitravel we will be changing the copyright on the pamphlets, opening them up for everyone to use as they please! ... arrr.. I don't want to see errors in my master plan >_< =P Theoretically, we could just put a different license on the pamphlets? Adzas, I don't think the out of date thing will be such an issue - attractions don't change all that often and people will hopefully upload new pamphlets to replace the old ones. People will probably also read the more updated Wikitravel article anyway. TheTasteOfEverything (talk) 03:22, 13 December 2016 (EST)

I still think that adding pamphlets defeats the purpose of Wikitravel, where we want original content in our articles, without too many external links, images etc. Our own article should be the pamphlet of a certain location I think. Adzas (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2017 (EST)

Weather[edit]

Is there a preferred format for sharing typical weather for a given destination? Ozymandias (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2016 (EST)

Template:Ping Not sure what you have in mind but if you use one method of measuring temperature (e.g. Fahrenheit), please also put the other method in parenthesis (i.e. Celsius). Koavf (talk) 23:15, 17 December 2016 (EST)
This is a typical temp/weather box that's used here: http://wikitravel.org/en/Chicago#Climate Enjoy! IBobi (talk) 14:35, 9 January 2017 (EST)

Headings[edit]

I am brand new to Wiki and created ny page, then somehow my headings lost their se parathion a and all but the first too be ame on line! I tried pasting in headings from a different site but nothing works!. They are all in a block! I have also lost the Add Listing button? Arlingham (talk) 19:02, 9 January 2017 (EST)

Hello and welcome to Wikitravel! I currently don't see anything on your userpage. Could you provide more details as to what specific page you are trying to edit? Tyen (talk) 19:05, 9 January 2017 (EST)

M page is Arly but I don't think I have puny it yet I somehow lost all the indentation and had to change the headings to make sense but need to format but can't wo ou what to do?I am having trouble replying as I am using an iPhone and can't see what I am writing! Y page title is Arlingham! Arlingham (talk) 19:24, 9 January 2017 (EST)

Arlingham I fixed it for you. Some of the headings are still non-standard but they are correctly formatted. Thanks for your additions--I know that typing on those things is a real bear. Koavf (talk) 19:48, 9 January 2017 (EST)