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Difference between revisions of "Wikitravel:Travellers' pub"

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__NEWSECTIONLINK__ <!-- generates a "+"-Tab so we can easily add a new topic -->  
 
__NEWSECTIONLINK__ <!-- generates a "+"-Tab so we can easily add a new topic -->  
 
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
 
The '''Travellers' pub''' is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the [[Wikitravel:FAQ|FAQ]] and [[Wikitravel:Help|Help]] page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.  
  
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
 
Please add new questions '''at the bottom''' of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to it, but otherwise [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]]!
  
{{disclaimerbox|If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to that article.
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{{disclaimerbox|*If you have a question or suggestion about a ''particular'' article, try [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|using talk pages]] to keep the discussion specific to ''that'' article.
 
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If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ Mediawiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
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If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.
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}}
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<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
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*If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki software], please post that on the [[:shared:Wikitravel Shared:Technical requests|Technical requests]] page on [[:shared:Main Page|Wikitravel Shared]] instead.
  
Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. '''three months''' after the last comment in that discussion) that could or should be moved to a [[Wikitravel:using talk pages|talk page]], please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
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*If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikitravel by yourself or others, [[Wikitravel:Celebrate a contribution]] may be the place you are looking for.}}
 +
{{disclaimerbox|<big>'''Please sweep the pub'''</big>
 +
Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. dormant for a month or more) that could or should be moved to another page, please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.
  
* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to the article discussion page
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* A question regarding a destination article should be swept to that article's discussion page
* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to the policy or expedition discussion page
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* A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to that policy or expedition discussion page
 
* A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
 
* A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to to where the main discussion took place.
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* A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old.  Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to where the main discussion took place.
  
Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to '''[[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]]''' and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to [[Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives]] and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, leave it alone—it's better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.}}
  
{{WikitravelDoc|collaboration}}
 
  
[[ca:Wikitravel:Bar dels viatgers]]
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__TOC__
[[de:Wikitravel:Stammtisch]]
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[[eo:Wikitravel:Vojaĝista drinkejo]]
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[[es:Wikitravel:Bar de los viajeros]]
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[[fi:Wikitravel:Kestikievari]]
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[[fr:Wikitravel:Café des Voyageurs]]
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[[he:ויקיטיול:דלפק ייעוץ]]
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[[hi:विकिट्रैवल:यात्री भवन]]
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[[hu:Wikitravel:Kocsmafal]]
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[[it:Wikitravel:Bar dei viaggiatori]]
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[[ja:Wikitravel:旅人の居酒屋]]
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[[ko:Wikitravel:Travellers' pub]]
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[[nl:Wikitravel:Reizigerscafé]]
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[[pl:Wikitravel:Pub podróżnika]]
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[[pt:Wikitravel:Bar dos viajantes]]
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[[ro:Wikitravel:Hanul călătorilor]]
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[[ru:Wikitravel:Пивная путешественников]]
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[[sv:Wikitravel:Resenärspuben]]
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[[zh:Wikitravel:旅行者茶馆]]
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[[wts:Wikitravel Shared:Travellers' pub]]
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----
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==API?==
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==Country's official name and type of government==
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It seems that I and [[User:Ttcf]] have reached a impass. Ttcf argues that adding the correct type of government to the infobox and adding the official name of a country in the article will make Wikitravel more like a inferior version of Wikipedia. While I argue that it will not, and if so, what about the infobox? If adding the official name and correct type of government will make Wikitravel more like Wikipedia, than the infobox shouldn't be in the articles about countries. And then the official name, adding the countries actual name like say adding ''officialy, Nation of Brunei, the Abode of Peace'' to the article about Brunei will make WT more like WP? It's not like I'm adding the countries leader(s) or defence budget to the article. [[User:Seqqis|Seqqis]] ([[User talk:Seqqis|talk]]) 18:19, 30 November 2014 (EST)
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:I think that this may well boil down to a question of [[tone]].
 +
:I see that you [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Seqqis are very active and experienced at Wikipedia] but that encourages dry, encyclopaedic writing.
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:We're a Travel Guide and should write our articles from the point of view of the traveller. We're enjoined to ""''Be conversational and informal when writing articles''", and told that "''Lively writing is welcome. The requirement of being fair should not be taken to mean that all writing must be bland and encyclopaedic. Wikitravel should celebrate travel, and you should feel free to share the adventure and excitement of the journey and the destination through your writing. For example, North Korea's human rights situation can and should be summed up as an "Orwellian nightmare", as opposed to noting that "some organizations have expressed concern about less than full compliance to international human rights standards, a charge vigorously denied by the Foreign Ministry."''"
 +
:I do indeed think that
 +
:a) it's impossible to encapsulate most country's governmental systems in a few short words appropriate to our quickbar
 +
:b) trying to do so leads to endless unproductive tussles
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:c} most travellers are sincerely and resolutely uninterested in whether France is [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=France&diff=2265458&oldid=2265456 a "Unitary semi-presidential constitutional republic"] rather than just a common or garden variety republic. (Is there any governement that claims to operate a "''non''-constitutional republic"?) For those that are interested we can add the information lower down in the "Understand" section.
 +
:d) we should remove the "governement" category from the quickbar (and perhaps replace it with something succinct and factual and possibly of more interest to the traveller such as the number of murders per 100,000 residents per year or the number of overseas visitors per year or just shorten the length of the quickbar altogether by leaving one less entry...)
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:None of the information you keep adding to various articles is being expunged. It's just that some of the stuff about the legal drinking age for alcohol or soliciting prostitutes or screwing the locals or whether France is currently on it's Fifth Republic, deserves a different prominence lower down in the body of the article rather than as the first thing that socks you in the eye when you start reading. (And please remember that the quickbar is all you get to read in the Mobile version unless you open other headings!)
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:While I have this opportunity, I also sincerely doubt that most practical travellers give a hoot about what languages are [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=New_Zealand&diff=next&oldid=2249883 "'''Official'''"] (Māori is the name of a people and not their language) and which are not -they just want to know what to expect. While it may be amusing to know that England and the US have no official language (no, not even their respective versions of English) and that New Zealand has Te Reo as an official language, what's really important in a travel guide is that English should get you by in all three. These kind of interesting tidbits about quirks of language and constitutional arrangements belong in the body text - not usually in the opening paragraphs (technically our H1 heading, and what search engines give most importance to).
 +
:Do you really think that an opening of
 +
:::'''France''' (Officialy the ''French Republic'')  is a country located in Western [[Europe]]. Clockwise from the north, France borders [[Belgium]], [[Luxembourg]] and [[Germany]] to the northeast, [[Switzerland]] to the east, [[Italy]] to the south-east and [[Spain]] to the south-west, across the Pyrenees mountain range (the small country of [[Andorra]] lies in between the two countries). The Mediterranean Sea lies to the south of France, with the [[Monaco|Principality of Monaco]] forming a small enclave. To the west, France has a long Atlantic Ocean coastline, while to the north lies the English Channel, across which lies the last of France's neighbours, [[England]] (part of the [[United Kingdom]]). In the Carribean, France borders the [[Netherlands]] via the French territory of [[Saint-Martin]] which borders the Dutch territory of [[Sint Maarten]]. Five oversea regions also form part of France: [[Martinique]] and [[Guadeloupe]] in the [[Caribbean]], [[French Guiana]] in [[South America]], and [[Reunion]] and [[Mayotte]], both off the coast of [[Madagascar]]. Numerous French oversea territories also exist around the Earth with varying status.
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:(complete with '''TWO''' spelling mistakes) is better for a travel guide than
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:::'''France''' is the country that more people enjoy visiting than any other.
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:::France is geographically one of the most diverse countries in Europe. Its cities contain some of the greatest treasures in Europe, its countryside is prosperous and well tended and it boasts dozens of major tourist attractions, like Paris, the French Riviera, the Atlantic beaches, the winter sport resorts of the French Alps, the castles of the Loire Valley, Brittany and Normandy. France is renowned for its gastronomy (particularly wines and cheeses), history, culture and fashion.
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:when the "missing" information about France bordering the Netherlands and Madagascar can still be found further down the page?
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:Please remember that most of our country pages were seeded by material being imported from the ''CIA Fact Book'', and in many of them that US centric, what's-important-for-preserving-diplomatic-relations-or-for-invasion purpose still shows - right down to the formulaic and often imprecise "''the country''" scattered throughout many articles. The lead paragraphs for most countries are well overdue a complete re-write. --[[User:Ttcf|Ttcf]] ([[User talk:Ttcf|talk]]) 19:04, 30 November 2014 (EST)
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::The govt info line should be deleted from the quickbar template. We can't do it well in just a word or two and attempting the impossible just leads to edit wars - we should leave that sort of stuff to Wikipedia - especially since all of our country articles are already linked to the relevant Wikipedia article. --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 07:18, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
I've resumed work on my [[Wikitravel:iTravelFree]] Android/iOS app - the next version will include Foursquare data as well as Wikitravel and Wikipedia - and its [http://itravelapp.appspot.com/map Wikitravel maps mash-up], and it occurred to me that some of the server-side stuff I do might be useful to others. In particular, I parse out Wikitravel pages into their constituent sections and listings, work out parent/child relationships using both breadcrumbs and internal links, convert addresses into lat/long coordinates, etc. It wouldn't be ''that'' much work for me to create a API that let developers access not just individual pages but individual sections and listings within pages, and the parent/child relationships between pages.
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==Additional information  for images==
 +
Is there a suggested maximum length for a caption?
  
But it wouldn't be a trivial job either. And if a bunch of people wanted to use it extensively, the bandwidth costs would quickly become nontrivial. (I'm using Google App Engine, which ain't cheap.) So would anyone out there be interested in such an API? And if so, would it be a Creative Commons terms-of-service violation to charge its users enough to defray my costs for it? [[User:Rezendi|Rezendi]] 16:34, 2 January 2012 (EST)
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If the caption says it all, should the description repeat the caption or be left blank?
  
: Although I think charging for the service would be entirely possible under the licence, I think the derived information would also be CC-BY-SA.  Arguably, it should be put back into the main guide.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 17:39, 2 January 2012 (EST)
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If the credit and the source would be identical should the source repeat the credit or be left blank?
  
==Spelling of [[Odisha]]/Orissa==
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Should credit be to Wikitravel ID or full name of photographer?  Assuming work is being uploaded by the photographer. <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: MichaelRpdx|MichaelRpdx]] ([[User_talk: MichaelRpdx|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelRpdx|contribs]]) </small>
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:'''Photos''' It may seem pedantic but [[ttcf|the traveller comes first]]: is the caption you want to write more useful than blank space? There is no technical limit on photo captions as far as I'm aware but more than a few dozen words would probably not be useful. A caption shouldn't replace a listing and there will definitely be information that a caption would never include (like a fax number). Sourcing a photo shouldn't necessarily be the same as the credit but if they are, it's fine to put the same info. As far as credits ''in'' the caption of an article, it's probably irrelevant to most travellers ''who'' took a photo, so you could probably omit that. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 12:08, 19 January 2015 (EST)
  
Hi, everyone. User Triseult has been editing every mention of the Indian state formerly known as Orissa to reflect a new official Indian government spelling. I appreciate his/her diligence but have doubts about his/her decision. We have not changed the spelling of [[Bangalore]] to Bengaluru, for example, because the latter spelling is still at least somewhat more common in English.
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Right, OK, that clarifies the length of caption question. To clarify my question, it refers to the fields of the template one fills out when uploading an image.
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:'''Captions''' I don't want to be dismissive, so please don't read it this way but go for it: just try out whatever you think is best and let us know if it won't display properly or if it seems like it might be a problem. For what it's worth, I think you're doing a great job so far and you can always ask any question you want here. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 12:26, 19 January 2015 (EST)
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::Hi, I also just left you a message on [http://wikitravel.org/shared/User_talk:MichaelRpdx Wikitravel Shared], happy to help further if needed. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 12:40, 19 January 2015 (EST)
  
I have started a thread in [[Talk:Odisha]] and invite your participation.
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:Koavf, understood, you did not come across as dismissive at all. This falls into the "but my English isn't so good" realm. Do what you think fits  and other people will come in and adjust as needed.<small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: MichaelRpdx|MichaelRpdx]] ([[User_talk: MichaelRpdx|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelRpdx|contribs]]) </small>
  
All the best,
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==Misuse of [[Template:Warningbox]]==
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THere is an increasing tendency to misuse this template and cry Wolf too often and in too many places.
  
[[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 05:21, 4 January 2012 (EST)
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This is hardly surprising since both the strategic and practical advice about how to include governmental advisories at [[Template:Warningbox/doc]] is NOT linked or displayed on the actual template page itself!
  
== Tour listings - rules  ==
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I would edit the template myself - except that it has been locked so that only admins can edit it. --[[Special:Contributions/222.127.76.207|222.127.76.207]] 00:02, 24 January 2015 (EST)
  
Hello,
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'''BUMP'''! --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 00:04, 5 February 2015 (EST)
I would like to find solution of one problem. I was trying to edit info about exploring [[Warsaw]] and information about tours was erased according to [http://wikitravel.org/en/Tour#Tour_listings]. I asked [[User:LtPowers]] to change back information because mentioned tours have got "'''value-added activity'''". Warsaw during WWII was destroyed in 90% and many interesting places are covered by modern buildings (eg.last pieces of Ghetto Wall). Whats more there is lack of book which describes Warsaw architecture in English. Thats why Wiki users should have access to erased information.
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: A better place for this discussion would be [[Wikitravel_talk:Activity_listings]], the talk page for the policy in question. Have a look at older discussions there too.
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:I´m not sure what exactly you want to add to the template, as both the template page and the doc page seem to have the same information? [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 10:40, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
: Please sign messages by typing four tildes( <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>); that adds date, time & your ID,like this: [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 05:53, 9 January 2012 (EST)
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::I [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Template:Warningbox&oldid=2207616 currently see] this when I look at <code>Template:Warningbox</code> :
  
:: I agree.  Users should have access to the information.  I suggest that you kindly put the information in Wikitravel.  It is a guide, then people will have the information.  We're here to provide open information, accessible and free. Anyone can then use our free and open information on their site, for their tour, or for their personal information.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 06:32, 9 January 2012 (EST)
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This template is meant for '''non-obvious dangers to life and limb''', and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:
  
:::Yes, perhaps this should be discussed at [[Wikitravel_talk:Activity_listings]], so please do raise your concerns and inquiry there if you wish. However do consider first if the tours being offered are something that requires the experienced and specialist guidance of someone such as that offered by the tour company. I note you have mentioned there is apparently a lack of readily available information, such as from a book. Please consider if a visitor to Warsaw can go and visit (or 'tour') these sites independently and without the support of guide services. If so then the Tour service is probably precluded from listing in the Wikitravel articles. Also of course have a good read of [[Wikitravel:Activity_listings|Activity listings]]. Consider what it is that the tours is offering. Does it offers something as a supplement to that a person would be able to sufficiently derive from a visit to the location on their own? Also consider if the tour operators are are a requisite to visit a certain area, this would include provisions where a guide is required by law or safety regulations of some kind, or where un-supervised access is denied without an official guide or supervisor.-- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 06:38, 9 January 2012 (EST)
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* "civil war in this region"
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* "devastated by earthquake last week"
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* "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
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* "death penalty for marijuana possession"
  
== Outline status for travel topics ==
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Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).
  
I'm a bit confused about the layout requirements and status determination of travel topics. Maybe I'm looking on the wrong page, but it seems to me that travel topic outlines are different from destination outlines, in that they will apparently be deleted if not edited for a year. Looking at [[Wikitravel:Travel_topic_status]], it seems that that warning is the only template outline travel topics can bear. Why is that? In practice, some outline travel topics have been given a "normal" outline template (e.g. [[Rock climbing]]) while others have been tagged "usable" despite being fairly short (e.g. [[Round the world overland]]). I imagine this might also be the result of people trying to get rid of the deletion warning, and indeed it it would be strange to delete these topics.  
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Do ''not'' use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").
  
Now, I was trying to save [[windsurfing]] from deletion, but I'm unsure what that would require? There doesn't seem to be a set article template for such topics (and I would say that's a good thing), but what would it need to be usable and thus off the hook? Or should I give it just the standard outline status? [[User:Justme|Justme]] 06:39, 13 January 2012 (EST)
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If the danger affects ''the entire region'', the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article.  If the danger is localized or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".
  
: IMO this is why we have the vfd process.  We won't vote to delete an article that is being developed, or has travel content.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 06:01, 14 January 2012 (EST)
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:Whereas if the documentation at <code>Template:Warningbox/doc</code> was being properly included and displayed, I would see much more, ie:
  
::I get that, and I'm not worried that windsurfing will be deleted now, but the vfd is meant to evaluate individual cases, judging them based on policy and common practice. In principle, we try to develop articles without making use of the vdf. So that leaves my more general questions about why travel topic outlines are different from destination articles. If there's no explanation, I don't see why we wouldn't replace the "warning-this will be deleted if not edited for a year" template with the "normal" outline template. [[User:Justme|Justme]] 06:30, 14 January 2012 (EST)
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===When to use===
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This template is meant for '''non-obvious dangers to life and limb''', and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:
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* "civil war in this region"
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* "devastated by earthquake last week"
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* "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
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* "death penalty for marijuana possession"
  
::: You can look at the development of the policy here, [[Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy#Incomplete travel topics and itineraries]].
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Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).
::: I kind of see your point.  I see this policy squarely aimed at "Visiting secondary sewage processing plants in Southern Europe with kids", type article, rather than a single sport or such.
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::: Practically, however, the threshold for being "usable" is quite low.  If the article is usable, then apply the usable template.  If it really is an outline (headings, introduction, and no travel content) then it deserves to be considered for vfd after a year.  
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::: Despite of some of the comments on the vfd page, I think it is one of the most effective collaborations on the site.  It brings out the strongest arguments in content and policy, regularly rescues articles and images, and leads to policy development.  I don't think I've ever seen a vote that I'd consider removes useful travel content.
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::: Would you have contributed to the windsurfing article if it hadn't been there, or would it have been a content-less disaster for the next decade? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 23:09, 15 January 2012 (EST)
+
  
::::Thank you for that link, Inas, it explains the rationale :-) Although I don't believe it's a proper policy for mainstream travel topics (like windsurfing or any other sport) I can see why it's been developed and how it is useful. When the usable threshold is quite low, it shouldn't be much of a problem. A final question again though (sorry), a writer is in principle free to choose headings, right? There's no template? Thanks! [[User:Justme|Justme]] 08:10, 16 January 2012 (EST)
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Do ''not'' use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").
  
::::: Yes, the writer is in principle free to choose headings in a travel topic, however, there is a tendency to reuse existing headings where they fit, and use the imperative phrasing also.
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===How to use===
::::: I think there are an infinite amount of things that could become travel topics, and a finite set of contributors.  We generally don't create a travel topic articles in advance of a contribution.  Unfortunately, in my view, that contribution can be a non-contribution - with no travel content, and we still tend to keep the article.  An equivalent non-contribution in an existing article may well be removed.  I see travel topics as needing curating during their early days if they are going to be successful, and if they are created by a passer-by and no regular contributor steps up, they languish.   --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 17:09, 16 January 2012 (EST)
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If the danger affects ''the entire region'', the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article.  If the danger is localised or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".
  
 +
The warning message should be placed after the {{!}} in the template.
  
==Navigation at the bottom?==
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To add advisories, insert the full and direct URLs of a particular government's country-specific information into the available country parameters: <code>australia, canada, india, ireland, nz, southafrica, uk, us</code>
Err.. am I the only one not seeing the sidebar, as it's placed all the way at the bottom of the page? [[User:Justme|Justme]] 14:12, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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: Incompatibility between latest firefox and this version of mediawiki.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 16:07, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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::Oh :-( thanks... [[User:Justme|Justme]] 18:42, 19 January 2012 (EST)
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::: I gave an explanation of this failure (Rendering failure with Firefox 9.0.1 above) and a solution some days ago. Nothing was done. The problem is to solved by IB. --[[User:Unger|Unger]] 09:15, 20 January 2012 (EST)
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::::Did you report it on Shared?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:57, 20 January 2012 (EST)
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:::::Appears this issue will resolve with the MW upgrade, which is in progress.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:08, 20 January 2012 (EST)
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Never resolved, but I just updated to Firefox 10.0 and WT appears normal again. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 15:48, 4 February 2012 (EST)
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'''Example:'''
 +
<code><nowiki>{{warningbox|March 2013: a large number of strikes and protests took place across the country in response to the trials of alleged war criminals. Both supporters and detractors of the accused are in civil disobedience campaigns. Strikes frequently turned violent, with over 60 people killed. Monitor local news for updates and try to avoid large crowds and protests.
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|australia=http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Bangladesh
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|canada=http://travel.gc.ca/destinations/bangladesh
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|ireland=http://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/a-z-list-of-countries/bangladesh/
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|nz=http://www.safetravel.govt.nz/destinations/bangladesh.shtml
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|uk=http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/bangladesh
 +
|us=http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html
 +
}}</nowiki></code>
  
== Wikitravel sucks ==
+
===Travel advisories===
 +
This template allows the addition of Government travel advisories. The following links may help find URLs of official advisories:
 +
* '''Australia''': See [http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Index Smartraveller]
 +
* '''Canada''': See [http://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories Travel.gc.ca]
 +
* '''India''': ''unknown''
 +
* '''Ireland''': see [http://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/ Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade]
 +
* '''New Zealand''': See [http://www.safetravel.govt.nz/advisories/index.shtml Safetravel.govt.nz]
 +
* '''South Africa''': ''unknown''
 +
* '''United Kingdom''': See [http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/ Foreign & Commonwealth Office]
 +
* '''United States''': See [http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_4965.html Travel.state.gov]
  
So slow for the past couple of days.  A couple of attempts at editing, and then give up for the day.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 22:40, 19 January 2012 (EST)
+
--[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 20:26, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
: Everything might be (possibly) fixed by the [[:shared:Tech:Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.17|Mediawiki upgrade]] scheduled for <s>September 2011</s> <s>November 2011</s> some time in 2012/2013.  In the mean time it seems frustration will be rampant... -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 22:56, 19 January 2012 (EST)
+
==Recommendation that [[tout]] be blocked for 1 day==
::Investigating the performance issue -- thank you for reporting.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:10, 20 January 2012 (EST)
+
Despite several warnings at [[User talk:Candyline]], this hotel marketeer has neither replied nor modified their touting behaviour. I recommend they be blocked for 24h as a "heads-up" not to [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Jakarta&curid=4575&diff=2282797&oldid=2276645 ignore] established and clear written policy on [[no-ref-code|marketing campaign codes in URLs]]]. --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 23:08, 3 February 2015 (EST)
:::Please report if there are still performance issues today; we had a bad crawler last week that may have slowed the site.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:04, 23 January 2012 (EST)
+
::::I still get frequent delays loading pages, though it usually speeds up as my session goes on.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 16:56, 23 January 2012 (EST)
+
  
== [[Wernigerode]] ==
+
:[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3ACandyline Thanks, Binbin]! --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 06:58, 4 February 2015 (EST)
  
Please would someone peer review the [[Wernigerode]] article and let me know what is now essential to get it to guide standard. Many thanks in advance. --[[User:SaxonWarrior|SaxonWarrior]] 11:44, 21 January 2012 (EST)
+
==Cebu City==
:I've upgraded it to usable from outline.  For guide status, the See, Do, Buy, Eat, Drink, and Sleep sections need summaries, and the listings need actual prices.  Drink listings need descriptions, and I'd also like to see the Sleep listings fleshed out more. Museums should be in "See" rather than "Do".  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:01, 21 January 2012 (EST)
+
Please would someone with admin privileges delete the blocking re-direct and move the page name to the most common name in the English language ((and the name already in use in many of our articles): '''Cebu City'''. --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 23:50, 3 February 2015 (EST)
::Thanks. I'll get to work. --[[User:SaxonWarrior|SaxonWarrior]] 03:32, 22 January 2012 (EST)
+
  
== [[Saxon Ore Mountains]] ==
+
:Have a look now, I removed a re-direct which seemed double, let me know if I missed anything that you wanted done. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:45, 4 February 2015 (EST)
  
The above article name is a bit of a fudge forced to fit the existing country/state hierarchy. The range is known as the Ore Mountains and straddles the German/Czech border, the highest point being on the Czech side. It is a major tourist magnet. IMHO we need an article on the [[Ore Mountains]], but it will be an extra-hierarchical region. Can we cope with that? --[[User:SaxonWarrior|SaxonWarrior]] 02:14, 25 January 2012 (EST)
+
::[http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=move&user=&page=Cebu+%28city%29&year=&month=-1&tagfilter= Thanks], Adzas! --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 00:00, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
:Extra-hierarchical regions are fine, the [[Harz Mountains]] already function as an extra-hierarchical region. --[[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] 03:38, 25 January 2012 (EST)
+
==Listings Being Removed==
 +
Hello,  
  
== Adequate attribution? ==
+
I have tried to add multiple hotel listings to this site and majority of them are being removed. I can give several examples if needed but I am not sure why some listings are staying while others are being removed. We follow the same pattern for each listing so it does not make sense that some are added while others are removed. All the contributor says is our listing was removed for not following the guidelines. We have read through your guidelines to make sure we follow what is outlined. Further, the site welcomes business owners to add their listing as outlined here - http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Welcome,_business_owners
I could swear I posted this here last night, but I can't find any trace of it...
+
 +
I work at the Corporate offices so I have a team of individuals that are working to
 +
1) Clean up listings since we've changed URLs to many of our hotels. We have consolidated much of our properties into one site so that is the reason our URLs have changed.
 +
2) Work with individual hotel owners to make sure properties are up-to-date and help them out by offering support in certain areas such as what we are doing here.  
  
Anyway, just asking because I'm not sure, but is [http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/01/23/citizen-kane-to-be-shown-at-hearst-castle/ this use of our image] properly attributed? It makes no mention of the creative commons license, etc. [[User:Texugo|texugo]] 15:57, 25 January 2012 (EST)
+
If you link to an individual hotel owners site then we leave the link as is. If the hotel is not listed on the page, we then move forward adding a listing. This is our process. Any insights into why a lot of our listings are being removed would be appreciated. Thank you. <small>—The preceding [[Wikitravel:Using_discussion_pages#Discussion_page_formatting|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Buash|Buash]] ([[User_talk:Buash|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Buash|contribs]]) 18:58, 5 February 2015 (EST)</small>
  
== Today's outage ==
+
:Thank you for reading the business guidelines and trying to be a good contributor. You may find that this is not the right venue for you, however. At its heart, Wikitravel is a resource by travelers for travelers - not by businesses for travelers. As such, we take a much wider view of what looks like "spam," and when a company or its marketing firm seeks to inundate our community-written pages with listing after listing that seeks to benefit itself rather than the community, you will find your listings get speedily deleted. The rules you read are a guideline. The spirit of the site is as I have stated. Hope that helps. [[User:IBobi|IBobi]] ([[User talk:IBobi|talk]]) 19:32, 5 February 2015 (EST)
 +
:For what it's worth, I also would have deleted [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2283078 your] badly [[format]]ted listings (including [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2282349 the ones where you did not bother to log in]) that did not include [[pricing]] information.
 +
:IBobi is the boss here and what he says goes, but many ordinary contributors like myself like to adopt a carrot and stick approach: if you bother to actually read our [[MOS|Manual of Style]] (and other advice hyperlinked in blue) and to reply to messages left on your talk page (where it would have been perhaps more appropriate to post this), then it's human nature that editors may give you a bit more rope, eh? Let's be clear about this, there can be some synergy and mutual benefit, but the [[ttcf|traveller comes first]] and you need to do some serious reading - including how to add your signature to your posts on article discussion and talk pages such as this one ... --[[User:Babaying balikbayan|Babaying balikbayan]] ([[User talk:Babaying balikbayan|talk]]) 20:17, 5 February 2015 (EST)
  
We had an unplanned outage for several hours today due to a database malfunction. Site should now be behaving as normal; thank you for being patient while we resolved this.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:45, 25 January 2012 (EST)
+
Thanks for the reply. I fully understand that travelers take precedence however, I doubt I am the first business to add a listing to the site. For example, on the page you pointed out [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2283078 your] badly [[format]]ted listings (including [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2282349 I noticed that all of the hotels listed in the Mid-Range section are linking to bitly links which go to hotelscombined.com. This is fully against your guidelines. Plus, they use bitly links which are usually used by SEO spammers. Anyways, I thank you for not removing my business owners hotel listing. Moving forward I will let business owners add there own listings to this site and hope you will allow them to add them. Thanks. --[[User:Buash]] ([[User talk:Buash|talk]]) 0940, 6 February 2015 (EST)
 +
: Thank you for noticing the bitly links. I just removed them as they breach our [[External links]] policies. Cheers! [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] ([[User talk:IBAlex|talk]]) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (EST)
  
:Are you talking about these kinds of weird error messages, such as this one in the [[Kerch]] guide (the same one that was in the Johor Bahru guide before I did a hard edit to the previous version):
+
== Embassy policy ==
  
The database did not find the text of a page that it should have found, named "(fixme, bug)".
+
Including the list of embassies in the guide to a capital city of a large counties has not been thought through. For Washington and Beijing, there are far too many embassies. What are they doing there? Embassies serve the whole country, not the city. If I need an embassy, then I am not likely to already be in Washington or Beijing. What if I am in Nevada? I may need to go to a consulate, but where is the nearest consulate? Some will be in California and will be missed. For most countries no change is necessary as the capital is the only major city. For large countries, we should consider the traveller may be in real need of urgent consular assistance and unless they are already in the capital city, they will find the current system difficult.
  
This is usually caused by following an outdated diff or history link to a page that has been deleted.
+
The other reason for change, is that the capital cities are mostly enormous cities already. These capital city articles do not need to be made longer by having pages of embassy information added to them. Also what about embassy districts? Would we repeat all the information and make it difficult to maintain? Let's make it easier to visit major capital cities.
  
If this is not the case, you may have found a bug in the software. Please report this to an administrator, making note of the URL.  
+
The appropriate policy for large countries (with more than 100 embassies) is as follows:
 +
  1.  Put all the embassies and consulate details of one country on a single page, and keep that page maintained.
 +
  2.  Provide a link to that page, from the country page, the capital city page, any city with consulates and any other page where a reader may look for consular assistance.
 +
  3.  Provide only non-consular information about embassies on the capital city and district pages. An embassy or an embassy district would be discussed as worth visiting for non-consular reasons, such as cultural centre or interesting architecture.
  
:[[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 04:21, 26 January 2012 (EST)
+
Ideally, this should developed into a policy.
 +
[[User:Lawe|Lawe]] ([[User talk:Lawe|talk]]) 01:49, 10 February 2015 (EST)
  
::He's probably also referring to the "Wikitravel has a problem, try again in a few minutes" message that I got most of the day, yesterday. For the record, today the site seems to be very slow, but functioning. [[User:Justme|Justme]] 07:18, 26 January 2012 (EST)
+
:This topic seems to be a bit overlooked which is a pity since it can lead to a valuable change in our pages and policies. I agree with [[User:Lawe|Lawe]], huge lists of embassies/consulates in a city's article aren't that useful and an "Embassy district" (or whatever we decide to call it) may be a good choice as well as having embassies/consulates pages for countries. I hope other users and Admins will join the discussion and share ideas. [[User:GiulioC|GiulioC]] ([[User talk:GiulioC|talk]]) 15:17, 23 February 2015 (EST)
  
The site appears to have become so slow over the last few days that it is now virtually unusable. It is near impossible to load a page, preview and edit or render an edit upload. Whats happened, rats chewed into the cabling? -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 09:54, 16 February 2012 (EST)
+
::I totally agree with above, huge lists are not useful, so great [[User:Lawe|Lawe]] brought this up. However, I´m not sure yet what the value would be of different pages for each country with just lists of embassies, as we always say we don´t want wikitravel to become like the yellow pages. Many countries have a general link that lists embassies in that country, why not just add that one link (example http://www.government.nl/issues/embassies-consulates-and-other-representations), and just remove those long lists out of the articles? Either way, a change is definitely needed. [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 18:15, 23 February 2015 (EST)
  
:::Hey Felix -- I'll have performance check with tech. Would you be interested in participating in the beta testing of the new Mediawiki upgrade?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 15:50, 16 February 2012 (EST)
+
:::In some cities, embassies may be a tourist attraction. In [[Canberra]], countries use traditional architectures. In [[Beijing]], embassies must be in designated embassy districts. In [[Paris]], some embassies had cultural centres attached. [[User:Lawe|Lawe]] ([[User talk:Lawe|talk]]) 00:42, 24 February 2015 (EST)
::::Hi iBobi, will I need to have any needles stuck into me or take any tablets? If not then let me know the details and lets see if I can assist by participating. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:08, 17 February 2012 (EST)
+
:::::Just email me at paul.obrien at internetbrands.com and we'll get you fixed up with testing credentials.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:54, 17 February 2012 (EST)
+
  
==Listings of individuals==
+
== Re: Wikitravel page User talk:VeritasVera has been created by IBilkka ==
  
Hi, everyone. I'd like you to weigh in on this. My understanding has been that we don't allow listings of individuals, such as individual language tutors, trekkers, guides, translators, or drivers. But I'd like to refer you to a discussion taking place in [[Talk:La Paz]] and another that I just started at [[Talk:Banaue]]. I think we need to have a clear and well-thought-through policy on these matters. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 06:20, 28 January 2012 (EST)
+
Hello Wikitravel,
 +
A few weeks ago I got an email from user IBilkka
 +
about me editing some text on the Kampala page...
 +
<nowiki>==========================================================================</nowiki>
  
: I think we these things we're guided by the number of potential listings, and the difficulty the traveller has in finding them.  If there is only one elephant driver in a town, and that's the only way to get from the station to the camp site apart from walking, then we list them.  Doesn't matter if they are an individual, or a franchise of Mega-Elephant.  If there are a few elephants, but the traveller needs to be able to contact them, and the method for doing so is not apparent, then may need to maintain a compact list of choices. Style of listings, capacity of the organisation, traveller recommendations, etc, guide us in choosing who to list, but we'd rather list individuals than Elephant-Back-Travel booking office.  However, if there are many elephants such that they are ubiquitous, then we don't need to list.  A line of prose saying the elephants are outside the station, or some such suffices.
+
Hi VeritasVera! Welcome to Wikitravel. I adjusted your edit on the Kampala page (just formatting), but can you double check the url of the Consulate you added, it does not seem to work. To help you further contributing, we've created a quick contribution guide and a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. --
: The bottom line is the traveller comes first.  We don't need to accept a business owners rationale. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 23:59, 28 January 2012 (EST)
+
  
: The issue has also turned up at [[Talk:Yangshuo#Tour_Guides]]. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 10:10, 29 January 2012 (EST)
+
IBilkka (talk) 18:55, 18 January 2015 (EST)  
 +
<nowiki>===========================================================================</nowiki>
  
== Cape Town Dive Festival 2012 ==
+
But the truth be said: I have never edited anything on this page.
 +
My only aditing was on the page with Bosnian Common Phrases.
  
Cape Town is hosting a dive festival in August. It is not on the same scale as the football world cup or summer Olympics, but we are hoping for visitors from all over South Africa, and possibly a few internationals. The festival is a co-operative event to be organised, subsidised, and run by most if not all of the local dive shops, charter boats and clubs. If successful, they plan to make it a bi-annual event. I would like to put up a temporary article giving basic details and contact details for booking and a small temporary banner on the following relevant articles:
+
Thanks.
*The actual dive sites selected for the festival (about 12)
+
Kind regards to all!
*The launch site and base for the festival (one of the local slipways and already a sub-article of the regional dive guide
+
Veritas Vera
*The regional dive guide,
+
*The national dive guide
+
*Scuba Diving travel topic in the section for South Africa
+
*The local regional travel guide (Western Cape)
+
*The host city (Cape Town)
+
The proposed banner is:
+
  
<div style="width:95%; float:center; border: none; margin: 1em 0 0 1em; padding: 2em;">
+
== Making Wikitravel Easier for Translators ==
{| cellpadding=5 cellspacing=1 border=0
+
|-
+
|align=left width=100% style="background-color:#c0ffff; border:4px solid blue; text-align: center; color: navy; padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em" |
+
'''[[Cape Town Dive Festival]]'''<br>11th & 12th August, 2012<br>Launching from<br>[[Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Miller's Point slipway|Cape Boat Club, Miller's Point, Simon’s Town]]<br>'''''Festival Dive Site'''''
+
|}
+
</div>
+
  
Is this acceptable, and are there any suggestions or existing policy to cover this?
+
Hi all,
Cheers, &bull; &bull; &bull; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 11:07, 31 January 2012 (EST)
+
  
:I'm reluctant to approve a banner for a national event like this.  This is not a major international event, so it is not going to be driving tourism; instead, it sounds like you want to advertise it via Wikitravel. There's a big difference between "Looking for information on the 2012 Olympics?  Here's where it's held," and "Looking for something to do in South Africa?  Here's an event.I don't think the latter is an appropriate use, especially for an event that will only draw minimal participation from outside the host country.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:47, 31 January 2012 (EST)
+
I'm an amateur translator, with a few years of translation experience, mainly Japanese -> English, and I'm looking to fill in the gaps in some of the Wikitravel articles by translating them from better articles written in the local language. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and maybe everyone has been really efficient or something, because it's really difficult to find articles which need translating. I like to believe there are lots of articles out there written in someone's native language which would benefit more travellers by being translated to English, is there any way we can make an index for us translators?
  
:: A standard event listing in the appropriate city/country article would definitely be OK, but too much promotion would be a concern.  That said, given all the great work that [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] has done on dive articles I'd trust his judgement as to whether Wikitravel is a proper platform for promoting an event like this one, but I've got some concerns that it could be a bit of a slippery slope, and the proposed banner definitely looks a bit like an advertisement.
+
I would be willing to translate Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Russian or Spanish to English, but all the work needed to contribute this technical expertise is really daunting. Thanks! <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: HandsomeBoh|HandsomeBoh]] ([[User_talk: HandsomeBoh|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HandsomeBoh|contribs]]) </small>
  
:: Wikitravel tends to be very conservative, which isn't always a good thing, so this might be a time where some experimentation would be warranted to see how it goes.  In that spirit, I would be OK with adding temporary notices to the relevant dive articles provided they are a bit closer to standard Wikitravel style (for example, something more like [[Template:Infobox]]). As to a separate page promoting the event, I've also got some concerns about the precedent that would set, but in the interest of encouraging experimentation what about creating an initial page for discussion purposes and seeing how it goes, although the talk page should make it clear that this is just an experiment and not something should be followed as precedent by other events? -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 01:14, 1 February 2012 (EST)
+
: Hello HandsomeBoh! Help is always welcome! We do have one tool that may meet your expectations, the http://wikitravel.org/en/Category:Articles_needing_translation page! Hope this will help, otherwise, feel free to ask! Happy translation! [[User:PierrB|PierrB]] ([[User talk:PierrB|talk]]) 22:17, 21 February 2015 (EST)
  
:::LtPowers, I take your point. It would be a foot in the door for possible spamming, so I will scrap the idea and just link to the pages from the event website.
+
: I have seen that page, but it seems to have very few articles which need translating. Are you sure there aren't any others haha? <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: HandsomeBoh|HandsomeBoh]] ([[User_talk: HandsomeBoh|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/HandsomeBoh|contribs]]) </small>
:::Ryan, Thanks for the support, but it is a bit of a slippery slope. I have been editing a lot on Wikipedia recently and tend to get policies mixed up between WT and WP. No problem, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. Cheers, &bull; &bull; &bull; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 01:06, 8 February 2012 (EST)
+
  
::::I don't think a banner such as the one for Olympic host cities would be inappropriate on the main page of the South African Diving Sites article though. If someone is looking for Diving in South Africa then it would likely be of interest but not from the South Africa country page. [[User:ChubbyWimbus|ChubbyWimbus]] 10:03, 16 February 2012 (EST)
+
::Hi, great that you want to help with the articles! We don´t really work with a list at the moment of articles to translate, we just [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|plunge forward]] where we feel an article needs attention or needs translating. I am working on the dutch version where we just discuss with the users there and work on articles, and if I see a great article on the dutch version which is not yet complete on the english version, I would just work on that. Our main focus has been to improve existing articles so go ahead and jump in! Greatly appreciated! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 06:27, 22 February 2015 (EST)
  
==Seeraa, the user and the Chinese website==
 
  
Hi, everyone. I would like you to please read the exchange at [[User_talk:Seeraa]] and also have a look at [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Contributions/Seeraa] and [http://www.seeraa.com/]. User Seeraa is some informative edits (unless they are copyvio, and except where they're merely added links to the seeraa portal), and I don't want to chase him/her away, but if the website in question really is in any sense official, why does [http://www.seeraa.com/about-seeraa/] not mention that? How should we handle this situation? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 03:58, 3 February 2012 (EST)
+
== Inquiry about name change of article ==
: Ikan, their homepage say they are a non-profit organisation. I think their [[xl]] linking to diverse places like Lhasa and Hangzhou looks a bit touty for me. I accept if they work in their knowledge into Wikitravel but the linking is to much. Especially in political sensitive cases like Tibet imho their link can't stay. [[User:Jc8136|Jc8136]] 04:06, 3 February 2012 (EST)
+
  
== [[Cameron Highlands]] Tour providers ==
+
Hello,
 
+
::I would appreciate a second (or third) opinion on the comments I have left on the [[Cameron Highlands]] [[Talk:Cameron Highlands#Tours in the Do section|discussion]] page. Thanks. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 06:33, 5 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== General aviation ==
+
 
+
I'm wondering about [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Atlanta&diff=1826626&oldid=1826621 this edit], which reverts what an anonymous user had added about general aviation airports near Atlanta, with no explanation given. I couldn't find any WT policy on general aviation, but I thought it was generally not excluded. I've certainly seen it mentioned in a lot of other articles. -- [[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 09:43, 10 February 2012 (EST)
+
:You'd have to ask [[User:Dguillaime]] to be sure, but looking at the IP's previous edits, it appears the reason for the reversion was to eliminate the spamming of the link to "Jetset Charter", rather than any particular antipathy toward general aviation.  To the larger question, general aviation is certainly a valid topic for our guides, though only the most significant GA airports in a given region should be listed.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 10:13, 10 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:: The company in question has been copying and pasting the same text to numerous articles, so had [[User:Dguillaime]] not done so I would have also reverted them under the [[Wikitravel:Don't tout]] guideline.  There was a similar discussion about listings for private jets in the [[USA]] article at [[Talk:United States of America/Archive 2007#Private jets?]] and the consensus was that it didn't make sense in that article, and I feel that the same holds true for articles like [[Los Angeles]] or [[Atlanta]] where private charters aren't something that's relevant to 99.999% of travelers.  However, for cities with small airports like [[Santa Monica]] where the major airlines do not operate then listing smaller operators might make sense - that assumes that the company in question actually operates the planes and isn't just a booking agent. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 11:12, 10 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::: Yes, the spamming of the company link was why I reverted those.  You'll see more instances of that in the edit history for that IP address, for other cities, and never with any contact information for that company besides the link. -- [[User:Dguillaime|D. Guillaime]] 11:38, 10 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Beta testing Mediawiki 1.17 upgrade ==
+
 
+
Having addressed the first round of bug reports from the Mediawiki upgrade beta test server, we're currently underway on a final round of testing before the new version of Wikitravel goes live in a few weeks. We'd love to have your input, so if you are interested in participating in the beta, email me at paul.obrien at internetbrands.com for testing credentials and instructions. Thanks!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:55, 21 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:Nice to hear that it's coming along :-) Just a question though.. why not upgrade to the latest version? 1.18 has been released a while back already and Wikipedia in fact is deploying even 1.19 this week. Isn't it strange to start with a backlog? [[User:Justme|Justme]] 06:22, 22 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
::It would be great to upgrade to the most recent version; but as you can see, they release small updates quite frequently, and upgrading a site as big as WT is a long process -- one that began prior to the release of 1.18 in November -- thus, we're finishing the upgrade to the version that was out at the time, 1.17. At any rate, it will not be as long between upgrades as it has been since the last one.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:40, 22 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==Integrating as a Wikimedia project==
+
This does not seem to have been brought up in a long time. I believe that integrating would be positive for all involved
+
*Would provide a secure funding base and reduce the need for google ads which take up so much of my screen
+
*Potentially increase editors as no google ads
+
*Would make it easier for the two sites to direct people adding content to the better place
+
*Would make Wikitravel better known (lots of great content here in a useful format)
+
*Would thus speed up the development of the project
+
*Potentially increased reliability (I am having trouble viewing this site right now)
+
I cannot really think of any drawbacks. Wikimedia projects are now under the same license is here.
+
--[[User:Doc James|Doc James]] 10:25, 23 February 2012 (EST)
+
: If [[Wikitravel:Internet Brands]] was interested in moving the site to Wikimedia management I suspect many people would be in support, but since they own the trademarks it would be up to them to make that decision (hopefully [[User:IBobi]] or someone from IB can provide their position).  Moving to Wikimedia without their blessing, and without trademarks, would essentially mean forking the project, and while that's entirely legal since all content is CC-SA licensed, using Wikitravel to have that discussion might not be entirely appropriate. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:19, 24 February 2012 (EST)
+
::Furthermore, if ads are an issue, registered users can turn ads off in their site preferences.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:59, 24 February 2012 (EST)
+
:::Yes I realize that those within the Wikimedia movement are free to take all the content here and put it under their own "name" as the content is CC just as those here are free to do the same with Wikipedia. I do not think splitting the editor base however is best for the content in question / open source movement. We already have too much duplication of efforts in other areas. I thought I would post the idea here to see if those here had any interest in collaborating more closely. I sit on the board of Wikimedia Canada and could bring this forwards to the WMF if there was interest. Good to know about the ads Lt.[[User:Doc James|Doc James]] 07:41, 25 February 2012 (EST)
+
::::Internet Brands, which owns the Wikitravel trademark, is a commercial entity looking to make money off this site, and I can't imagine any situation in which they would be supportive of this plan, regardless of potential benefits to the Wikitravel project and community. Otherwise, what Ryan said ;) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 22:08, 25 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Outage ==
+
 
+
Wikitravel was down for a while this morning due to an unscheduled data backup. If you see any unusual performance issues today, please let me know. Thank you --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:11, 23 February 2012 (EST)
+
:Site is going down for a few minutes for DB maintenance. Thanks --[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:16, 23 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
==Archiving the contents of user talk pages==
+
 
+
Have a look at this history: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:FortMyersResort&action=history
+
 
+
and this discussion: http://wikitravel.org/en/User_talk:Ikan_Kekek#Personal_Talk_Page_Edits
+
 
+
I think the idea that someone can remove all content from their user talk page and put it in an archive, especially when the content is not even a month old, is absurd. What is your opinion about this? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 02:22, 27 February 2012 (EST)
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:Why do you feel it is absurd?  Obviously, the archive ought to be linked from the talk page, but as long as that is done, I don't see the problem.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:03, 27 February 2012 (EST)
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+
::First, I didn't see a link. Second, there has to be a minimum amount of time before it makes sense to archive discussion, especially when the discussion consisted of two posts by others telling the user in question not to tout. Do you really think it makes sense to archive discussion in user talk pages that's less than a month old? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 14:05, 27 February 2012 (EST)
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+
:::Plenty of policy discussions about this, without much consensus, but with a fairly strict status quo practice of letting users do almost whatever they want with their own userspace. ''Guidance'' for users is at [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Etiquette]], but etiquette is not something policed. We do have a consensus to [[Wikitravel:Deletion_policy#Deleting_articles_in_personal_namespaces|remove content from non-contributing users talk pages]], and remove some extreme content (especially hate speech, promotion of illegal activities like prostitution, or threats). But we [[Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy|have not been able to build a consensus]] to police users' removal of good faith comments by other Wikitravellers (I think we should). For archiving, though, I think we shouldn't get too much in the business of policing userspace.
+
 
+
:::FWIW, I would support adding a note to the etiquette section, noting that it's best to wait until the page has grown long before archiving, and that such archives be clearly linked from the user's main talk page, so that everything is easy to find.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:55, 28 February 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Outage today ==
+
 
+
There were a few hours today when the site was flapping up and down; it seems very stable now, but please report if you see any localized outages or ongoing issues with stability or access. Thanks!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:00, 1 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
:Seems like it's back to its normal level of suck.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:28, 1 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Booking tool & ad policy discussion ==
+
 
+
Please take a look at the proposed changes to ad policy and the general Booking Tool discussion taking place over the last couple of weeks -- and years -- over on Shared http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Add_booking_tool_to_WT. As we approach implementation time on the booking tool as well as the Mediawiki upgrade, we'll be soliciting more feedback on look and feel as well, etc.
+
 
+
Also, if anyone is interested in participating in the ongoing Beta test of the Mediwiki upgrade, please contact me for credentials. Thank you.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:17, 5 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Maintenance window ==
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+
Hi all: we are going to require a ~30 minute maintenance window for the DB, starting in a few minutes, FYI. Site should be back up shortly thereafter. Thank you,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:51, 6 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Database upgrade complete ==
+
 
+
If you noticed many pages down this morning, it was due to the massive database upgrade we just completed. You should be seeing improved performance along with few to no errors when viewing, editing or posting content to Wikitravel.
+
 
+
If you see site weirdness, pages missing, error messages, or generally anything else that could come from a DB upgrade, please let me know.
+
 
+
Next steps are the MW upgrade and Booking Tool! Thanks,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:18, 7 March 2012 (EST)
+
 
+
== Wikitravel suggestion ==
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+
I've been on the search for a good video travel guide and I'm not sure if wikitravel would be for or oppose the idea of making a universal video guide as well. Thoughts?--[[User:themarcophoto]] 04:49, 11 March 2012 (EST)
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+
: Videos are discouraged per [[:shared:Image policy#Other media|the image policy]].  If you see a strong reason for allowing videos you can make the case on that article's talk page. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 12:45, 11 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Password ==
+
:Query: where do I go when I have forgotten my password?
+
:I will sign with my IP I guess..
+
:--[[User:81.68.73.34|81.68.73.34]] 15:17, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:: Others may know better, but I'm not sure that this version of Mediawiki provides that capability (I don't see anything on [[Special:Specialpages]] and there is no Special:PasswordReset page).  Your best option may be to just create a new account and leave a note on the user page indicating that you're the same user as whatever your old login was.  Alternately, IB will (hopefully) complete a Mediawiki upgrade in the coming month(s) that will enable the password reset page. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 12:55, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::On the login screen, there's a button that will send your password to the e-mail address specified in your preferences.  If you didn't specify an e-mail address, you may be out of luck.  It seems like there ought to be something a bureaucrat could do, but I don't know what that is.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 14:45, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::If that doesn't work, let me know. I do not have access to passwords, but I may be able to bend tech's ear about it; obviously we want established members to retain access to their existing accounts.
+
 
+
::::Incidentally, the MW upgrade Ryan refers to SHOULD (should) be live this week!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:18, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Outage ==
+
 
+
We were down for about an hour. Back now and all is well.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 14 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== How long to update a revision so it appears in the browser? ==
+
 
+
Having just spent a number of hours revising, correcting, updating, adding or clarifying links for the Quime, Bolivia page I try and load it (after updating in Mozilla and IE) and it has reverted back to the original. I wonder if it just takes awhile for the moderators to approve the revision, if so how long? If it does take awhile for revision approval, maybe it could be posted in the FAQ so revisionists don´t get freaked out. If it  has reverted, well I don´t understand why and am maybe a bit upset having wasted a few hours since IMO I improved and updated the page.
+
 
+
:Look here - http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Quime&curid=80685&diff=1842732&oldid=1825508 - at the editing comment and read the links I provided for you to understand why most of your edits to that page have been deleted. I'm sorry you feel like good work went down the drain. I appreciate your attitude, but you need to read the links I gave, and also [[tour]], which is in part relevant to the reversion of your edits to the "Contact" section. Also, please sign talk pages by typing 4 tildes in a row before pressing the enter key. Thanks. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 19:38, 16 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Lansing ==
+
 
+
Anyone else think [[Lansing (Michigan)]] meets our "much more famous" criterion and ought to be at [[Lansing]]?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 19:30, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: As the capital of Michigan I think it qualifies since [[Lansing (Illinois)]] is just a small village. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 19:37, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Other guide books ==
+
 
+
I was just wondering if we could start adressing physical guide books. We could for example that we just state which books cover that general area etc... Is this something that would be helpful? We could also just say something about wether that book felt up to date or not...
+
 
+
[[User:Ptrk|Ptrk]] 13:36, 22 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: [[Wikitravel:External links]] deals with this topic (short summary: references to other guides, either book or URL, are discouraged).  That article's talk page has lengthy discussions explaining why this was done, proposals for change, etc. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:39, 22 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Amazon wikitravel books ==
+
 
+
See thread here. [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Talk:Copyleft#Violating_books_on_Amazon_.28I_think.29] [[User:81.141.31.216|81.141.31.216]] 17:07, 22 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== iTravelFree is dead; long live WikiSherpa ==
+
 
+
A quick note: I've renamed my Android/iOS Wikitravel app from iTravelFree to [[Wikitravel:WikiSherpa]], mostly due to an irritating trademark dispute (don't ask.) Of greater interest to most is that, thanks to ever-cheapening bandwidth, it's now possible to download a complete offline snapshot of Wikitravel, and all associated Wikipedia pages, on the free version of the app. (The only difference between the free and paid version now is that the latter is ad-free; the income covers my bandwidth and [http://developers.google.com/appengine/ App Engine] costs.) Enjoy! And, as ever, any comments or suggestions are most welcome. [[User:Rezendi|Rezendi]] 08:03, 31 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Cool, I'll check it out and let you know how things are working ;)  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:13, 31 March 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Thanks for the app, dude, it's really helpful! I'm traveling now in south america and use your app every day. <small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:190.234.100.117|190.234.100.117]] ([[User_talk:190.234.100.117|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/190.234.100.117|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
+
 
+
: Very cool. I was using it on the weekend and being able to read WT while offline (no cell coverage) was very handy. - [[User:Shaund|Shaund]] 20:42, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==Credits?==
+
 
+
At what point did the credits ([http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=N%27Djamena&action=credits example]) cease to be displayed at the bottom of Wikitravel articles? I always thought being able to see who had been working on the article recently was pretty cool (in addition to being an exemplary way of showing attribution). Without this feature—even so much as a link to it—we are no longer keeping our promise to attribute users' real names, for those who have chosen said manner of attribution.
+
 
+
Did we have a discussion about this, or did IB just unilaterally change the way we attribute users' work?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 04:27, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:I'll look into it-- I know it was not a conscious decision, because we'd have discussed it with the community. May just be a glitch. Any idea how long it's been like that?--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:OK, here is the 411 on attributions: the feature is recommended "OFF" by Mediawiki. We switched it off (sorry -- this did not come down through channels to me) and that was the major factor in improving the site's performance and speed last month. So, once the MW upgrade is live and stable, we can always try turning it on again, and see how it affects performance & decide if the hit is worth having the attributions.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:23, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::That makes sense, and site performance should be a top priority (It's taking just forever to post this message). I'll note, though, that this really is essential information to discuss with the community. Not even notifying us is a pretty huge misstep (not hurling this at you personally). I do think we should restore at least a link to the credits section of each article, though, e.g., '''Please see the [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Travellers'_pub&action=credits "article credits"] for author attribution.''' And I should point out that that link is generating a database error right now...  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::I wonder if we could use javascript to hide the credits until the reader clicks the "[show]" button.  Or if reducing the number of authors shown by default would improve performance.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 20:11, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
+
:::: We probably could, but What about users who (sensibly in my view) disable javascript for security reasons? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] 23:03, 14 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::::: Sadly, I'm not well versed in the technical details, so I don't know if they'd see the credits by default or wouldn't see them at all.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:43, 15 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::::: If the goal was to reduce performance impact the credits would not be seen by someone who did not have Javascript/Ajax enabled.  Note, however, that this change would require a custom solution be developed and implemented by IB, so it seems unlikely to happen. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:59, 15 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
Without speaking out of turn, I believe we'd have resources for something like that, as it does not sound like a huge deal. Right now we have two techs working on WM upgrade and the booking tool, and we have them specced to work on WT for quite a while after that's complete. Let's see how the MW update affects performance, turn attributions back on as-designed, and revisit.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 13:32, 16 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:We're working on a solution to get attributions back on the pages with minimal performance impact; however, if we need to turn them back on now we can. It will probably slow edits back down considerably, and maybe reads too. We just want to be as above-board as possible that we're going to resolve this one way or the other, attributions are going to return to and stay on Wikitravel, and our plan is to include them along with performance improvements under the new version of WM. But if the community prefers them to be on now, we can and will oblige without a problem. Fair enough?
+
 
+
== MediaWiki upgrade is in staging and ready for testing ==
+
 
+
There is now a version of WT with the Mediawiki upgrade, live at this URL:
+
 
+
http://staging.wikitravel.org/en/Main_Page
+
 
+
No credentials or password are needed to access this server. Just click through, poke around, and report any issues you find under BETA here:
+
 
+
http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17
+
 
+
Testing this is critical to ensuring that the transition to the full new site is smooth. This will be happening very soon (weeks or sooner) and we're anxious to hear feedback. So please, go look.
+
 
+
KNOWN ISSUES:
+
 
+
1. This is NOT the "real" Wikitravel site -- your updates won't carry over to the real site. This is just a testing environment for debugging; it will mimic the look & feel of the new site however.
+
 
+
2. The article data you will see on this staging server are several months old. New edits will not appear. Don't panic -- all the data will of course appear when the real site is switched over.
+
 
+
3. Speed will be okay; not as fast as the full site, but not nearly as slow as the previous testing environment.
+
 
+
Thank you,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:43, 11 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:FYI the staging server is now closed. The next step will be adding the booking tool and internally testing the site, then opening it up again on staging for the community to test before it goes live. This should happen in the next week.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:57, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::Just a reminder—MediaWiki is the name of the software.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 17:53, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:::Thanks Peter -- think I reversed my MW and WM a couple times there.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:06, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== The Article Al Riqqa ==
+
I was reading through the page articles needing attention and Al Riqqa came across my mind. [[Al riqqa]] is a district in [[Dubai]], I suggest either we delete it and put all the information in Dubai or introduce distritification in the article so that Al Riqqa will be included.
+
 
+
-[[User:SnappyHip|SnappyHip]] 11:01, 14 April 2012 (PST)
+
 
+
== The way that "table of contents" is displayed ==
+
 
+
Hi guys.
+
 
+
As a sysop of the French Wiktionary, I'm really interrested in the way ''tables of contents'' show up here.
+
 
+
Would any contributor please help me to understand how it works ? --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 14:04, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:I believe [[User:Evan|Evan]] worked on it. He is no longer very active on this site, so best to contact him via his own website [http://evan.prodromou.name/Contact].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:10, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
::Thanks. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 16:40, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
==French Wikitravel==
+
I'm very concerned by the French version of this wiki : it seems that there is not anyone by there to ensure as a basic thing as ensuring that the pages about licenses describes the licence in the footnote. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 16:47, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
:To my opinion, you should close Wikitravel in French, it is dead in all ways to think about it. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 16:52, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:: There appears to still be active users on French Wikitravel, and [[:fr:User:Joelf]] is still active as an administrator. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 17:08, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
:::Sure. In fact, when saying that, I was hoping someone would explain me I was wrong. --[[User:ArséniureDeGallium|ArséniureDeGallium]] 20:42, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==Pure grumbling==
+
 
+
I had the day off, and was looking forward to putting some real work into the New Orleans articles, but was completely unable to load even the main page (timeouts). [[Special:Recentchanges]] makes it clear enough that this wasn't true for everyone. Why does this happen?  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 03:58, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:Well it was true for ME for much of the day. We had some firewall issues and an actual fire on the roof of our building that made it impossible for most staff to come to work yesterday and address the other issues. Things are still getting back to normal, but at least WT is up & running. Please report any lingering weirdness that may have begun yesterday. Thanks,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:08, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
::FYI you *may* be seeing more of this today; i don't know how performance looks from outside, but there are more network glitches running around today. Sorry about that -- we'll lock it down as soon as we can.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:13, 30 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Changing time formats ==
+
 
+
An anonymous user [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Tokyo&diff=1862930&oldid=1862308 changed all the times] in the [[Tokyo]] article to 24-hour format.  There's some logic behind that, since it's common in Japan to use 24-hour time in most public information displays... but if we were to follow that standard, wouldn't it be better done at a national level?  Whichever way it goes, is this worth reverting?  [[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 09:49, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: See [[Wikitravel:Time and date formats]] for the official policy.  The talk page for that article also has a fair amount of discussion on the subject. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 11:07, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== I have nothing to edit. What can I? ==
+
 
+
Hello, I'm a new user. I am bored on here. I have nothing to edit. What can I do?
+
 
+
And besides, are you going to comment about my username and signature? [[User:Scambox48 (Blow PMA up)|Pmaistakingthebanhammertobanworld]] 22:35, 28 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
:If you have nothing to edit, why are you here?  If you're only here to publicize your dislike of Pmanderson (who doesn't edit here), we're not really interested.  If you're genuinely interested in becoming a Wikitraveler, I suggest your first step should be to register a better username.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 09:27, 29 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
==Vandals getting around blocks==
+
 
+
How is this vandal that I blocked able to still make edits, as an unregistered user, to a page that I protected from edits by unregistered users? See [[User talk:216.66.167.98]] [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 21:27, 29 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
: A blocked user can still edit his talk page with the current Mediawiki version.  Similarly, it doesn't appear that protecting a page has any effect unless the page exists - you can create a page with a note indicating why it will be protected and then protect it, and things should work as expected. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 22:00, 29 April 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== French Wikitravel pages for deletion ==
+
 
+
Hi, could someone speedily delete some of the pages on the [[:fr:Wikitravel:Pages à supprimer|French Wikitravel pages for deletion]]? [[User:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">'''–sumone10154'''</font>]] 14:01, 2 May 2012 (EDT)
+
:Done. --[[User:Rein N.|Rein N.]] 19:01, 2 May 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== Ontopic or not? Page gathering information on possibilities to take bicycles on public transport. ==
+
 
+
Hi! Over at the (Swedish-language) Facebook group [http://www.facebook.com/groups/45841099287/] and Facebook page [http://www.facebook.com/cykelpatag] we were discussing to create a collection of information somewhere listing the possibilties (and lack-thereof) of taking a bicycle on Swedish trains, buses, etc. I wonder if that would be on-topic on Wikitravel? It would be one page listing for all of Sweden with what companies and on what lines it's possible to take a bicycle and where it's not. If possible we would make a map out of it. A wiki would be useful, we don't have one, and on Wikipedia it would be off-topic I think. What about Wikitravel? Does it fit? --[[User:Gerrit|Gerrit]] 17:08, 3 May 2012 (EDT)
+
*Such an article might be a bit too limited in scope.  It might be better to have an entire [[Bicycle travel in Sweden]] article that covers all aspects of bicycling.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 18:45, 3 May 2012 (EDT)
+
 
+
== ***RESCHEDULED for next week*** MediaWiki upgrade is scheduled for Monday 5/14/12 ==
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Site will be READ-ONLY for up to TWO DAYS while the upgrade is occurring.
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If there are edits you'd like to make, please do so over the weekend and on Monday.
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When the new site comes online, it will be on new hardware as well. Bug reporting is available here:
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http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS
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If for any reason you need to contact me, I can be reached on my Talk page or my email address paul.obrien at internetbrands.com.
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Thank you for hanging in there with us; once this major upgrade is complete we expect to be able to update the site software in a much more timely manner (1.11 to 1.17 is a big jump), and we have development resources to address any technical issues still lingering after the upgrade, as well as to address the next set of feature requests from the community. We're looking forward to the next stage of the project and hope you are too!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 17:47, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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: I've updated [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice ]] to note the scheduled outage. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 18:36, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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::Thank you Ryan.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 18:59, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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:Might be helpful to list the time in UTC (for the non-US users) in the message that displayed at the top. So: ''A MediaWiki upgrade is scheduled for Tuesday 8-May at 10AM PST (17:00 UTC). The site will be READ-ONLY for up to two days during the upgrade. '' [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] 23:38, 4 May 2012 (EDT)
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::Done [[User:Sumone10154|<font color="#339989">'''–sumone10154'''</font>]] 10:58, 5 May 2012 (EDT)
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THIS HAS BEEN RESCHEDULED FOR 5/15/2012 due to network issues today. As we get closer to the day, I'll post a time -- it is likely to be around 5am PST (12:00 UTC).--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:22, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
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THIS HAS BEEN RESCHEDULED FOR 5/14/2012. It is still likely to be around 5am PST (12:00 UTC).--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:28, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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: Since the site isn't read-only as of 8AM (Pacific) on 14-May, is there any update on when the upgrade is going to happen? -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 10:56, 14 May 2012 (EDT)
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::I'm told 2 minutes from now.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 12:58, 14 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::I'm following GW Bush's counsel [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A].  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:33, 14 May 2012 (EDT)
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I will update shortly on the upgrade status.--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 16:55, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
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:<big>Mission Accomplished!</big><small><small><small>?</small></small></small>  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 20:18, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
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== Templated See and Do listings ==
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Hi there. I'm only a new 'WikiTraveler', but am a seasoned Wiki-editor with many years experience. I am hoping to make some big contributions to this site, but something has been bugging me lately. I find that the See and Do listings on some articles can get very messy and disorganised. I think if we were to organise this information into a template/table, this would be much better for viewers to decipher information from, and also improve the quality of our articles.
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This has been proposed many years ago at [[Wikitravel_talk:Attraction_listings]], but with little discussion or progress. It seems many other language WikiTravels do it. [http://wikitravel.org/ja/%E3%83%AB%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%91%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%83%B3#.E8.A6.B3.E3.82.8B See here] for a Japanese example. I understand we use WikiCode tags, and it could take a long time to convert ''every'' article to a template format. One option is to keep the WikiCode we use, but change how the system organises the info within the tags; from a jumbled text wall, to an organised table format. This would allow for a total revamp across the board, yet with minimal effort.
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Any other thoughts, ideas or comments? Thanks, [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] 08:56, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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: One of the reasons the wikicode tags were used was to add the "edit" links to make it easier for non-technical contributors to add and edit listings.  As far as I'm aware there would be no way to achieve similar functionality using templates. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 10:30, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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:: Maybe this is just me... I feel like the Japanese presentation is a bit over the top, but I'd be quite happy just to add a bit more formatting to the current presentation. Just a bit of italics here and there, that kind of stuff. Most English-language print guidebooks do this, and I think it aids readability and makes it easy to spot when a listing is missing a piece of info. --[[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 14:18, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::Our listings already use bold and italics.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 18:50, 11 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::We do have a great system for adding listings. This system can easily be kept. What would be changed is where that information goes. There has to be a page somewhere (probably a MediaWiki: page) that organises the listing into the format it currently is, with the bold font, italics, etc. From a glance at this page, it seems [[User:IBobi]] handles the wiki's technical stuff, so maybe he would know how to change it.
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::::The Japanese format does take it a step overboard with all the colours and pictures. We could always have a much more toned down version. I just feel the way it is now is really messy. Look at the opening times on the [[Dhaka#Buildings|first listing here]]; it's all over the place. A possibility could be just to add more bold/italics/underlines, or even put some information on separate lines or dot points. Does anyone want to have a go at fixing it up? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 04:28, 12 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::: Yes, I know they already use some bold and italics... I was saying I think they could use a little more. --[[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 10:15, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Well, to be honest, I wouldn't know how to change them.  But a good start would be creating a mockup.  [[Wikitravel talk:Listings]] would be a good place to discuss the mockup once you create one.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 19:26, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::I certainly wouldn't want to see the listings become as colorful and complex as the ones on the Japanese site and I like the tag system we have now, but I think some minor tweaking couldn't hurt - putting the opening hours and the price info in italics, to further distinguish them from the description of the place, would really tidy up the presentation (whether this can actually be done I don't know, but I'm just throwing that out there). I really wouldn't want to see any more bolded text in the listings - as of now only the '''name''' of the place is bolded, and I like that because it highlights it and makes it easier on the eye when you're scanning an article looking for a specific listing. [[User:PerryPlanet|PerryPlanet]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:PerryPlanet|Talk]]</sup></small> 10:31, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::::We could make the phone number blink!  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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Moving the hours to a separate line could be really useful. I think we could make them more readable:
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Current version:
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* <see name="International Spy Museum" alt="" address="800 F St NW" directions="" phone="+1 202 393-7798" url="http://spymuseum.org/index.php" hours="9AM-5PM or 9AM-6PM daily, last admission one hour before close" price="Adults: $20, seniors: $15, children (5-11): $15, 4 &amp; under: Free" lat="" long="" email="" fax="">D.C.'s newest hot attraction's principal claim to fame among locals is the extraordinarily long line that usually winds out the doors (not to mention the high price tag). Its popularity, while a bit disproportionate given all the other great free museums in town, is not unwarranted—its exhibits are interesting to anyone even marginally interested in espionage and Cold War history, and it also has a great exhibit tailored specifically to kids.</see>
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Another idea:
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*'''International Spy Museum''', 800 F St NW, ☎ +1 202 393-7798, [http://spymuseum.org/index.php 1].
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:''9AM-5PM or 9AM-6PM daily, last admission one hour before close.''
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:D.C.'s newest hot attraction's principal claim to fame among locals is the extraordinarily long line that usually winds out the doors (not to mention the high price tag). Its popularity, while a bit disproportionate given all the other great free museums in town, is not unwarranted—its exhibits are interesting to anyone even marginally interested in espionage and Cold War history, and it also has a great exhibit tailored specifically to kids.
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:'''Price''': Adults: $20, seniors: $15, children (5-11): $15, 4 & under: Free.
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Good idea to take a fresh look at this. We'll have to wait until we have functional tech support, or the ability to do our own tech support, before we can implement this, but it's good to figure out what we want in the meantime.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 15:55, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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:That's great, Peter! The separate lines makes it much easier to read the information, instead of it being a jumbled mess. Most travel guides do organise the info how we do it now, (all in one long spiel, rather than spaced out) but that's just because they need to fit all the info into a specific number of pages. We have much more room than books, so it makes sense that we make use of it and make the info easier to read for viewers. I'll do some perusing and see if I can find out how to edit the backend stuff. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 07:05, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:Excellent suggestion! [[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] 07:15, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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::If anyone wants to have a go searching for how to modify the backend code that configures the layout, [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Special:Allmessages&ot=html here] may be a good start. That's a list of all the technical MediaWiki pages that can be tweaked. Some pages have the prefix "listing", which might be somehow relevant. But don't take my word for it; the page we need might not be there. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 09:02, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::Keep in mind that, despite the prevalence of mobile options in the modern era, making guides that can be easily and cheaply printed out is still one of our [[Wikitravel:Goals and non-goals|explicit goals]].  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 20:17, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::: It is entirely possible to change the format for a printed guide, much like we do now for URL formatting.  --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 20:27, 21 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::Is that feature custom to Wikitravel, or a feature of MediaWiki?  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 23 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::: The alternate formatting for printable version is a MediaWiki feature.  All it does is use a different (css) stylesheet for formatting.  I'm pretty sure MediaWiki allows more of these stylesheets to be configured as preferences too.  So in my understanding you could easily have a different style for printing than you have for online display, so we shouldn't let the printing bit constrain our thinking too much. After all, our online display currently has no URLs, so is inherently unsuited for printing. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] 19:29, 23 May 2012 (EDT)
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:::::::There's been a week of inactivity, so is everyone content with just implementing Peter's version for the time being? There's no colour or pictures, simply a few extra lines and spaces, and it should be possible to keep the Printable version as-is. After implementation, we can re-discuss if there's any issues. I did a little search around to find the code we need to edit, but it's very complicated. It looks like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming) Ajax] and CSS were used, which is only editable by site admins/IB. The Listing Editor's code is [http://files.wikitravel.org/mw/skins/common/ListingEditor.js here]. The formatting of the listing is [http://files.wikitravel.org/mw/skins/common/listing.css here]. Original discussion [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Popup_editing_for_listings_tags here]. While we're at it, we should add the 'email' option to the editor, which has been long missing. I guess we should file a tech-request then? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 23:21, 29 May 2012 (EDT)
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::::::::Given the complexity of the change and the expansiveness of its effect, I'd prefer to see more discussion before we go making major changes.  [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] 13:35, 30 May 2012 (EDT)
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I would also like to see some more discussion on this before making a change. Listings have a variety of completeness and length of information, so depending on what is there, the above proposal could easily produce a very lopsided-looking listing like this:
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*'''International Butt Museum''', 800 F St NW, ☎ +1 202 393-7798, butt@buttmuseum.org, [http://buttmuseum.org/index.php 1].
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:''9AM-5PM.''
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:Super awesome museum about butts. Great for people who have butts or would like to find out more about butts.
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:'''Price''': Free.
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[[User:Texugo|texugo]] 15:16, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:Is there a code that we could use that would only implement the multiple-line layout when a certain character/word count is reached? Sounds complicated to implement, though. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 05:42, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Mediawiki upgrade status ==
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The planned MW upgrade has been postponed.
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During the last 2 days, as you may have noticed, Wikitravel has been in read-only mode for a planned upgrade. Due to unforeseen technical circumstances, we had to re-schedule.
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We have been working to transfer the entire site to new hardware while simultaneously migrating it to MW version 1.17 from 1.11.
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As you can see, the existing version of the site running on 1.11 is back online for read-write access. Our technical department has built testing tools specific to the customized version of MW that runs Wikitravel, and we'll be using them to troubleshoot and log potential causes of the upgrade failure.
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As soon as we have it, I will post a new timetable for the switchover to the new site.
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Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns,--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 20:37, 17 May 2012 (EDT)
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:Hi, this is [[:ja:user:shoestring|Shoestring]], an admin of ja:.
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:It will be very much helpful if you could kindly leave a brief message about the concrete schedule of the next system maintenance on the [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] of '''shared and en:''', at least prior to a week.
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:Usually ja: users don't check the pubs on en: and shared so frequently, and we have totally no idea what on earth was happening on the site for the last couple of days.--[[User:Shoestring|Shoestring]] 07:22, 18 May 2012 (EDT)
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::Out of interest, what are the changes? Is it just performance improvements, or will this bring in new ads? Are we getting upgraded to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vector Vector] skin, because the Monobook is starting to look quite old. I've seen non-Wikimedia sites do it; we should too. <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 21:40, 19 May 2012 (EDT)
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:Any chance of providing a [[:en:Wikitravel:Database dump|database dump]] for download at the same time?  Please? [[User:Anjocu|Anjocu]] 23:05, 21 May 2012 (EST)
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==www.airport-china.com==
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A lot of links to this site have been posted in articles about various Chinese cities. I doubt this is an official airport site, but I'm not completely certain. If it's not, all such links should be deleted. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 22:02, 25 May 2012 (EDT)
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:At the bottom of the page of http://www.airport-china.com are various advertising links to hotel booking sites and tour guides, there is also a statement of "Power by Lutu ltd.", whose own website states that:
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:''Lutu Inc. is the one of the domestic company in China, which fully committed in the business of China Hotel Online Booking Service.''
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:These links coupled with the .com rather than .cn top level domain suggest a commercial, rather than government, site.
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:The Civil Aviation Authority of China has a website at http://www.caac.gov.cn/.[[User:Travelpleb|Travelpleb]] 10:57, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Deletion of user and talk pages ==
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Every time I'm monitoring the Recent Changes, I notice new users creating accounts then pasting some huge advertising spiel on their user/user talk pages. I understand advertising is completely disallowed, but are these pages meant to be outright deleted? If so, it may help if we had a template for 'Speedy deletions'. All the pages with the template would be put into a category where admins would just delete them without discussion, as they are blatant breaches of guidelines. [[Template:Vfd]] seems to only cover deletions that require discussion and consensus. I'll go ahead and create the template in the few days, if there are no objections, but wanted to also notify admins of the idea.
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On an unrelated sidenote, I think the pub is definitely in need of a sweep of items that are at least 3 months old. Any objections to that? <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup>
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:I've created [[Template:Delete]] and [[:Category:Speedy deletion candidates]]. Please add it to your watchlist/userspace, admins, so you can keep an eye on it. :) <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 08:11, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:: I don't think a separate template is needed as the VFD tag should be sufficient, and if a speedy deletion is warranted the nomination can state as much. However, for spambot-created pages no nomination is needed unless the page is overlooked - per [[Wikitravel:Deletion policy#Speedy deletion]] obvious candidates don't require a nomination as it adds extra overhead for nominating and archiving discussion (''"New pages that are plainly spam and that qualify for speedy deletion will be deleted as soon as they are noticed by an administrator, and therefore do not need to be listed on the votes for deletion page. If such a page remains for more than 24 hours, add it to the nominations page as a way to ensure that it isn't overlooked."''). -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 13:15, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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I hope I'm doing this well. I would like an advice. I made a wiki page about my town Kaštela. Now I'm thinking if it's going to be a problem for people trying to find it, as the letter š is not really in use. So I would like to make it that if somebody searches for Kastela also arrives to Kaštela page. Any help?
  
:Yes, such user pages should be deleted, and I delete them whenever I see them. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] 18:20, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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Thank you,  
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Gandor <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: Gandor|Gandor]] ([[User_talk: Gandor|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gandor|contribs]]) </small>
  
The pub definitely needs more brooms! Please don't simply sweep everything into an archive, though. Discussions should be swept to the most relevant talk page, per the little sweeping guide at the top of this page. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 12:55, 3 June 2012 (EDT)
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:'''Names''' If you want to know more about how this software works, you can check [https://mediawiki.org/ MediaWiki's homepage] to get all the documentation. The quick answer is that anyone can easily make a redirect from [[Kastela]] to [[Kaštela]]. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 03:27, 24 February 2015 (EST)
  
::I didn't think it was necessary to list advertisement articles on the VfD page because, as Ryan said, it would involve extra nomination processes and archiving when discussion shouldn't be required. I considered letting an admin know on their talk page, but quite a few new pages popped up. Also, I'll sweep some old dust out of the pub later when I get a chance :) <big>[[User:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#4682b4"><big>J</big>ames'''<small>A</small>'''</font></font>]]</big>  <sup>[[User talk:JamesA|<font face="Segoe UI"><font color="#191970">'''>talk'''</font></font>]]</sup> 03:45, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
 
  
== Introducing the Wikitravel API ==
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: Thank you very much Koavf. I don't know a lot about changing that stuff. I'm amateur. I really appreciate your help. :)
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Thank you once again,
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Gandor <small>—The [[Project:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User: Gandor|Gandor]] ([[User_talk: Gandor|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gandor|contribs]]) </small>
  
Hey there. Just wanted to mention that I've gone and created an [http://wiki-sherpa.appspot.com/api API for Wikitravel], for people who want to use Wikitravel data in other projects. It renders pages as hierarchical JSON objects, with wikimarkup rendered into simple HTML, and includes lists of subpages, geocoding of listings with addresses, etc. There's also a search API and the ability to search for pages and listings near a particular latitude and longitude. Please note, however, that it's very much a beta release; any feedback, suggestions, or bug reports would be most welcome! [[User:Rezendi|Rezendi]] 12:48, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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::It looks like Koavf already made a re-direct, so all will be able to find your town. Thanks for your contributions! [[User:Adzas|Adzas]] ([[User talk:Adzas|talk]]) 09:48, 24 February 2015 (EST)
  
== Mediawiki upgrade scheduled for 06-June-2012 ==
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==Banners are coming to every article!==
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The Wikitravel team has been hard at work with the newest addition to the site, banner images on every page! The banners provide two major benefits:
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#They streamline the positioning of the table of contents on every article while respecting the various screen resolutions that are in use today.
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#They provide a beautiful hero image to kick off every article.
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We encourage all travelers to [[Wikitravel:Banner guidelines#Banner image guidelines|create new banners]] on articles that are still missing one and to [[Wikitravel:Banner guidelines#Updating an existing banner|suggest image updates]] on articles that do.
  
Site will be READ-ONLY for up to 2 days while the upgrade is occurring.
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We hope you enjoy and as always please feel free to provide feedback below! [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 16:57, 5 March 2015 (EST)
  
If there are edits you'd like to make, please do so asap.
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: The team may indeed have been hard at work but the idea came from that Other Wiki and so did the actual template, withour proper attribution. You (specifically [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] who uploaded it) need to either add attribution to comply with the CC-by-SA license or delete the file. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 05:02, 6 March 2015 (EST)
  
When the new site comes online, it will be on new hardware as well. Bug reporting is available here:
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::::I do not know of any legal jurisdiction where ''ideas'' (as opposed to their novel implementation) are legally protected intellectual property. You're correct that copying the ''code'' of a WikiMedia Foundation template without proper attribution is a copyright infringement in most material jurisdictions. However, IBcaldera may have a plea in mitigation that appropriate attribution is mechanically prevented here by the various filters that are in place.
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::::To me what is more important is that the banners have been implemented in an even worse way than at that ''other place''.
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::::There's certainly an argument to be had that large images at the top of every article give a fresh and brighter feel to our guide (the downside being that there is no switch for logged in users who are on slow or expensive connections to turn them off - as they can do with the adverts).
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::::However, it's pretty stupid to then go and uglify them by plonking a (defective and deficient) horizontal mini table of contents in their lower part.
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::::(Was this a conscious decision or just the inadvertent result of unthinking plagiarism?)
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::::It's then adding insult to injury to configure the template so that it irredeemably prevents a proper multi-level ToC from being displayed even if the magic word of <code><nowiki>__TOC__</nowiki></code> is used to try and force the display of the multilevel table of contents that is often needed for effective copyediting or efficient use. [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 07:57, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
  
http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS
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::Hello. Encouragement to create banners is interesting to me - but how can i look at the existing banners, other than on corresponding articles? Eg, i have checked  [http://wikitravel.org/shared/File:Lithuania_Banner.jpg this one] and it has no its location (directory) on WT Shared. It looks like pending somewhere in the space. It is relevant to look at the existing banners before starting to create new or replace existing ones. Or did i miss something? And if i create the new one for some article - i assume i have to upload it to WT Shared, so do i need it to post on that article's talk page to make it available for admin review? I'm not entirely confident that my banner will be 100% suitable, at least technically, so i'd like to show it to admin first. Once i uploaded it to WT Shared i can show it. Isn't it enough, should i upload it to talk page too? I'm a regular user and am quite ignoramus, all i'm asking about is probably supposed to go without saying, but how i'm supposed to know those things if nobody tells them? :) . Most of the problems I face here is that i don't know almost all things that go without saying. --[[User:Local|Local]] ([[User talk:Local|talk]]) 05:00, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
  
If for any reason you need to contact me, I can be reached on my Talk page or my email address paul.obrien at internetbrands.com. Thanks!--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 14:07, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
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== Banners! ==
 +
Hi!
 +
Your banners are really nice, but regrettably, there can be errors.
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If you look at Surat Thani in Thailand, and Surat in India you will find that both have the same banner!!!!!!
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Please rectify!
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[[User:Avemario|Avemario]] ([[User talk:Avemario|talk]]) 06:40, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
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:Hey, Avemarino! Thanks for the feedback! I've updated the banners on [[Surat Thani]] and [[Surat]] now. [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 15:59, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
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::"Beautiful banners are coming to every article" - but is it worth the collateral damage of losing the table of contents in Country articles? [[Special:Contributions/118.101.50.144|118.101.50.144]] 20:17, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
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:::Absolutely Not! See what happens to itineraries: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=One_week_in_Sydney&oldid=2313525. It's ridiculous.
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:::By all means have a standout, panorama style image at the top of some articles, but keep a working table of contents! [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 14:54, 16 May 2015 (EDT)
  
:Delayed until 06-June-2012--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:11, 4 June 2012 (EDT)
 
  
::Upgrade complete. Please report issues at http://wikitravel.org/shared/Tech:Upgrade_to_MediaWiki_1.17#1.17_UPGRADE_BUG_REPORTS--[[User:IBobi|IBobi]] 19:02, 7 June 2012 (EDT)
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==Linkspam==
 +
Please would someone who has the relevant tools revert the self-serving  [[Special:Contributions/77.107.90.82|recent '''edits from the IP address of 77.107.90.82''']]?<br /> [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 11:57, 18 May 2015 (EDT)
  
== Eratic readings since crash at 5. Juni 2012 in German Wikitravel ==
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:Mmmm, does nobody with admin privileges read here or wish to respond?
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:Surely this page should be on their watch lists - or is there another page that they read? [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 12:20, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
  
Seit dem 7. Juni 2012 werden auf der Deutschen Seite von Wikitravel Informationen zu Sehenswürdigkeiten, Gastronomie und Unterkünften nur noch zum Teil angezeigt. Auch die Darstellung am Beginn eines Artikels hat sich zum Nachteil verändert. Die Hauptseite hat einen aktuellen Stand vom 22. Juni 2011, also fast ein Jahr alt. Auch die Artikelinformationen sind veraltet. Interessierte neue Autoren springen sehr schnell ab und gehen zu [http://www.wikivoyage.org/de/Hauptseite Wikivoyage] über. Dort werden sie herzlichst begrüßt und aufgenommen. Bei Wikitravel werden sie von einen nicht mehr aktiven Administrator gefrustet, der ihre Beiträge ohne Begründung löscht, anstatt ihnen Hilfe anzubieten.
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:: Hi! Thanks for your message! Edits from this user have been removed yesterday and IP 77.107.90.82 has been blocked yesterday as well by our admin IBcaldera. Thanks again for keeping an eye on edits in this community! Warm regards, [[User:IBAlex|IBAlex]] ([[User talk:IBAlex|talk]]) 13:57, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
  
Man bekommt den Eindruck Wikitravel ist gestorben und wird nicht mehr gepflegt. Es ist seit Januar 2012 kein aktiver Administrator mehr tätig. Die Wahl für neue Administratoren ist mangels Interesse gescheitert. Wie soll es weitergehen?
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::Hey there, forgot to reply - handled it yesterday. Thanks for the heads up! [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 14:06, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
  
Please answer at the German Travellers' pub-Site. -- Knut [[Special:Contributions/84.58.160.100|84.58.160.100]] 04:32, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
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:::Thanks for your response and effective action.
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:::Is this the best place for these kind of alerts to be made, please? [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 20:21, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
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::::'''Spamming''' I didn't respond because IBcaldera had already reverted it and blocked the IP--I figured that addressed your concern. Please feel free to post here. Thanks. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 00:43, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
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:::::Thanks for your reply [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Koavf Justin] - I'll assume it means that there is no "''admins' noticeboard''" or similar on this Wiki and, unfortunately, this is the best place for these kind of alerts to be made. [[Special:Contributions/78.151.195.227|78.151.195.227]] 06:26, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
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::::::Yep! I'd say this is the best place. It was definitely just my goof to not come back to confirm the changes were reverted/deleted. [[User:IBcaldera|IBcaldera]] ([[User talk:IBcaldera|talk]]) 14:03, 20 May 2015 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 08:23, 17 July 2015

The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

  • If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

Please sweep the pub Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. dormant for a month or more) that could or should be moved to another page, please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.

  • A question regarding a destination article should be swept to that article's discussion page
  • A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to that policy or expedition discussion page
  • A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
  • A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old. Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to where the main discussion took place.

Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, leave it alone—it's better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.



Country's official name and type of government[edit]

It seems that I and User:Ttcf have reached a impass. Ttcf argues that adding the correct type of government to the infobox and adding the official name of a country in the article will make Wikitravel more like a inferior version of Wikipedia. While I argue that it will not, and if so, what about the infobox? If adding the official name and correct type of government will make Wikitravel more like Wikipedia, than the infobox shouldn't be in the articles about countries. And then the official name, adding the countries actual name like say adding officialy, Nation of Brunei, the Abode of Peace to the article about Brunei will make WT more like WP? It's not like I'm adding the countries leader(s) or defence budget to the article. Seqqis (talk) 18:19, 30 November 2014 (EST)

I think that this may well boil down to a question of tone.
I see that you are very active and experienced at Wikipedia but that encourages dry, encyclopaedic writing.
We're a Travel Guide and should write our articles from the point of view of the traveller. We're enjoined to ""Be conversational and informal when writing articles", and told that "Lively writing is welcome. The requirement of being fair should not be taken to mean that all writing must be bland and encyclopaedic. Wikitravel should celebrate travel, and you should feel free to share the adventure and excitement of the journey and the destination through your writing. For example, North Korea's human rights situation can and should be summed up as an "Orwellian nightmare", as opposed to noting that "some organizations have expressed concern about less than full compliance to international human rights standards, a charge vigorously denied by the Foreign Ministry.""
I do indeed think that
a) it's impossible to encapsulate most country's governmental systems in a few short words appropriate to our quickbar
b) trying to do so leads to endless unproductive tussles
c} most travellers are sincerely and resolutely uninterested in whether France is a "Unitary semi-presidential constitutional republic" rather than just a common or garden variety republic. (Is there any governement that claims to operate a "non-constitutional republic"?) For those that are interested we can add the information lower down in the "Understand" section.
d) we should remove the "governement" category from the quickbar (and perhaps replace it with something succinct and factual and possibly of more interest to the traveller such as the number of murders per 100,000 residents per year or the number of overseas visitors per year or just shorten the length of the quickbar altogether by leaving one less entry...)
None of the information you keep adding to various articles is being expunged. It's just that some of the stuff about the legal drinking age for alcohol or soliciting prostitutes or screwing the locals or whether France is currently on it's Fifth Republic, deserves a different prominence lower down in the body of the article rather than as the first thing that socks you in the eye when you start reading. (And please remember that the quickbar is all you get to read in the Mobile version unless you open other headings!)
While I have this opportunity, I also sincerely doubt that most practical travellers give a hoot about what languages are "Official" (Māori is the name of a people and not their language) and which are not -they just want to know what to expect. While it may be amusing to know that England and the US have no official language (no, not even their respective versions of English) and that New Zealand has Te Reo as an official language, what's really important in a travel guide is that English should get you by in all three. These kind of interesting tidbits about quirks of language and constitutional arrangements belong in the body text - not usually in the opening paragraphs (technically our H1 heading, and what search engines give most importance to).
Do you really think that an opening of
France (Officialy the French Republic) is a country located in Western Europe. Clockwise from the north, France borders Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany to the northeast, Switzerland to the east, Italy to the south-east and Spain to the south-west, across the Pyrenees mountain range (the small country of Andorra lies in between the two countries). The Mediterranean Sea lies to the south of France, with the Principality of Monaco forming a small enclave. To the west, France has a long Atlantic Ocean coastline, while to the north lies the English Channel, across which lies the last of France's neighbours, England (part of the United Kingdom). In the Carribean, France borders the Netherlands via the French territory of Saint-Martin which borders the Dutch territory of Sint Maarten. Five oversea regions also form part of France: Martinique and Guadeloupe in the Caribbean, French Guiana in South America, and Reunion and Mayotte, both off the coast of Madagascar. Numerous French oversea territories also exist around the Earth with varying status.
(complete with TWO spelling mistakes) is better for a travel guide than
France is the country that more people enjoy visiting than any other.
France is geographically one of the most diverse countries in Europe. Its cities contain some of the greatest treasures in Europe, its countryside is prosperous and well tended and it boasts dozens of major tourist attractions, like Paris, the French Riviera, the Atlantic beaches, the winter sport resorts of the French Alps, the castles of the Loire Valley, Brittany and Normandy. France is renowned for its gastronomy (particularly wines and cheeses), history, culture and fashion.
when the "missing" information about France bordering the Netherlands and Madagascar can still be found further down the page?
Please remember that most of our country pages were seeded by material being imported from the CIA Fact Book, and in many of them that US centric, what's-important-for-preserving-diplomatic-relations-or-for-invasion purpose still shows - right down to the formulaic and often imprecise "the country" scattered throughout many articles. The lead paragraphs for most countries are well overdue a complete re-write. --Ttcf (talk) 19:04, 30 November 2014 (EST)
The govt info line should be deleted from the quickbar template. We can't do it well in just a word or two and attempting the impossible just leads to edit wars - we should leave that sort of stuff to Wikipedia - especially since all of our country articles are already linked to the relevant Wikipedia article. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 07:18, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Additional information for images[edit]

Is there a suggested maximum length for a caption?

If the caption says it all, should the description repeat the caption or be left blank?

If the credit and the source would be identical should the source repeat the credit or be left blank?

Should credit be to Wikitravel ID or full name of photographer? Assuming work is being uploaded by the photographer. —The preceding comment was added by MichaelRpdx (talkcontribs)

Photos It may seem pedantic but the traveller comes first: is the caption you want to write more useful than blank space? There is no technical limit on photo captions as far as I'm aware but more than a few dozen words would probably not be useful. A caption shouldn't replace a listing and there will definitely be information that a caption would never include (like a fax number). Sourcing a photo shouldn't necessarily be the same as the credit but if they are, it's fine to put the same info. As far as credits in the caption of an article, it's probably irrelevant to most travellers who took a photo, so you could probably omit that. Koavf (talk) 12:08, 19 January 2015 (EST)

Right, OK, that clarifies the length of caption question. To clarify my question, it refers to the fields of the template one fills out when uploading an image.

Captions I don't want to be dismissive, so please don't read it this way but go for it: just try out whatever you think is best and let us know if it won't display properly or if it seems like it might be a problem. For what it's worth, I think you're doing a great job so far and you can always ask any question you want here. Koavf (talk) 12:26, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Hi, I also just left you a message on Wikitravel Shared, happy to help further if needed. Adzas (talk) 12:40, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Koavf, understood, you did not come across as dismissive at all. This falls into the "but my English isn't so good" realm. Do what you think fits and other people will come in and adjust as needed.—The preceding comment was added by MichaelRpdx (talkcontribs)

Misuse of Template:Warningbox[edit]

THere is an increasing tendency to misuse this template and cry Wolf too often and in too many places.

This is hardly surprising since both the strategic and practical advice about how to include governmental advisories at Template:Warningbox/doc is NOT linked or displayed on the actual template page itself!

I would edit the template myself - except that it has been locked so that only admins can edit it. --222.127.76.207 00:02, 24 January 2015 (EST)

BUMP! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2015 (EST)

I´m not sure what exactly you want to add to the template, as both the template page and the doc page seem to have the same information? Adzas (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2015 (EST)
I currently see this when I look at Template:Warningbox :

This template is meant for non-obvious dangers to life and limb, and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:

  • "civil war in this region"
  • "devastated by earthquake last week"
  • "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
  • "death penalty for marijuana possession"

Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).

Do not use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").

If the danger affects the entire region, the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localized or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".

Whereas if the documentation at Template:Warningbox/doc was being properly included and displayed, I would see much more, ie:

When to use[edit]

This template is meant for non-obvious dangers to life and limb, and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:

  • "civil war in this region"
  • "devastated by earthquake last week"
  • "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
  • "death penalty for marijuana possession"

Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).

Do not use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").

How to use[edit]

If the danger affects the entire region, the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localised or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".

The warning message should be placed after the | in the template.

To add advisories, insert the full and direct URLs of a particular government's country-specific information into the available country parameters: australia, canada, india, ireland, nz, southafrica, uk, us

Example: {{warningbox|March 2013: a large number of strikes and protests took place across the country in response to the trials of alleged war criminals. Both supporters and detractors of the accused are in civil disobedience campaigns. Strikes frequently turned violent, with over 60 people killed. Monitor local news for updates and try to avoid large crowds and protests. |australia=http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Bangladesh |canada=http://travel.gc.ca/destinations/bangladesh |ireland=http://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/a-z-list-of-countries/bangladesh/ |nz=http://www.safetravel.govt.nz/destinations/bangladesh.shtml |uk=http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/bangladesh |us=http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1011.html }}

Travel advisories[edit]

This template allows the addition of Government travel advisories. The following links may help find URLs of official advisories:

--Babaying balikbayan (talk) 20:26, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Recommendation that tout be blocked for 1 day[edit]

Despite several warnings at User talk:Candyline, this hotel marketeer has neither replied nor modified their touting behaviour. I recommend they be blocked for 24h as a "heads-up" not to ignore established and clear written policy on marketing campaign codes in URLs]. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 23:08, 3 February 2015 (EST)

Thanks, Binbin! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 06:58, 4 February 2015 (EST)

Cebu City[edit]

Please would someone with admin privileges delete the blocking re-direct and move the page name to the most common name in the English language ((and the name already in use in many of our articles): Cebu City. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2015 (EST)

Have a look now, I removed a re-direct which seemed double, let me know if I missed anything that you wanted done. Adzas (talk) 09:45, 4 February 2015 (EST)
Thanks, Adzas! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Listings Being Removed[edit]

Hello,

I have tried to add multiple hotel listings to this site and majority of them are being removed. I can give several examples if needed but I am not sure why some listings are staying while others are being removed. We follow the same pattern for each listing so it does not make sense that some are added while others are removed. All the contributor says is our listing was removed for not following the guidelines. We have read through your guidelines to make sure we follow what is outlined. Further, the site welcomes business owners to add their listing as outlined here - http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Welcome,_business_owners

I work at the Corporate offices so I have a team of individuals that are working to 1) Clean up listings since we've changed URLs to many of our hotels. We have consolidated much of our properties into one site so that is the reason our URLs have changed. 2) Work with individual hotel owners to make sure properties are up-to-date and help them out by offering support in certain areas such as what we are doing here.

If you link to an individual hotel owners site then we leave the link as is. If the hotel is not listed on the page, we then move forward adding a listing. This is our process. Any insights into why a lot of our listings are being removed would be appreciated. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buash (talkcontribs) 18:58, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Thank you for reading the business guidelines and trying to be a good contributor. You may find that this is not the right venue for you, however. At its heart, Wikitravel is a resource by travelers for travelers - not by businesses for travelers. As such, we take a much wider view of what looks like "spam," and when a company or its marketing firm seeks to inundate our community-written pages with listing after listing that seeks to benefit itself rather than the community, you will find your listings get speedily deleted. The rules you read are a guideline. The spirit of the site is as I have stated. Hope that helps. IBobi (talk) 19:32, 5 February 2015 (EST)
For what it's worth, I also would have deleted your badly formatted listings (including the ones where you did not bother to log in) that did not include pricing information.
IBobi is the boss here and what he says goes, but many ordinary contributors like myself like to adopt a carrot and stick approach: if you bother to actually read our Manual of Style (and other advice hyperlinked in blue) and to reply to messages left on your talk page (where it would have been perhaps more appropriate to post this), then it's human nature that editors may give you a bit more rope, eh? Let's be clear about this, there can be some synergy and mutual benefit, but the traveller comes first and you need to do some serious reading - including how to add your signature to your posts on article discussion and talk pages such as this one ... --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Thanks for the reply. I fully understand that travelers take precedence however, I doubt I am the first business to add a listing to the site. For example, on the page you pointed out your badly formatted listings (including [http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Washington,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2282349 I noticed that all of the hotels listed in the Mid-Range section are linking to bitly links which go to hotelscombined.com. This is fully against your guidelines. Plus, they use bitly links which are usually used by SEO spammers. Anyways, I thank you for not removing my business owners hotel listing. Moving forward I will let business owners add there own listings to this site and hope you will allow them to add them. Thanks. --User:Buash (talk) 0940, 6 February 2015 (EST)

Thank you for noticing the bitly links. I just removed them as they breach our External links policies. Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (EST)

Embassy policy[edit]

Including the list of embassies in the guide to a capital city of a large counties has not been thought through. For Washington and Beijing, there are far too many embassies. What are they doing there? Embassies serve the whole country, not the city. If I need an embassy, then I am not likely to already be in Washington or Beijing. What if I am in Nevada? I may need to go to a consulate, but where is the nearest consulate? Some will be in California and will be missed. For most countries no change is necessary as the capital is the only major city. For large countries, we should consider the traveller may be in real need of urgent consular assistance and unless they are already in the capital city, they will find the current system difficult.

The other reason for change, is that the capital cities are mostly enormous cities already. These capital city articles do not need to be made longer by having pages of embassy information added to them. Also what about embassy districts? Would we repeat all the information and make it difficult to maintain? Let's make it easier to visit major capital cities.

The appropriate policy for large countries (with more than 100 embassies) is as follows:

  1.  Put all the embassies and consulate details of one country on a single page, and keep that page maintained.
  2.  Provide a link to that page, from the country page, the capital city page, any city with consulates and any other page where a reader may look for consular assistance.
  3.  Provide only non-consular information about embassies on the capital city and district pages. An embassy or an embassy district would be discussed as worth visiting for non-consular reasons, such as cultural centre or interesting architecture.

Ideally, this should developed into a policy. Lawe (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2015 (EST)

This topic seems to be a bit overlooked which is a pity since it can lead to a valuable change in our pages and policies. I agree with Lawe, huge lists of embassies/consulates in a city's article aren't that useful and an "Embassy district" (or whatever we decide to call it) may be a good choice as well as having embassies/consulates pages for countries. I hope other users and Admins will join the discussion and share ideas. GiulioC (talk) 15:17, 23 February 2015 (EST)
I totally agree with above, huge lists are not useful, so great Lawe brought this up. However, I´m not sure yet what the value would be of different pages for each country with just lists of embassies, as we always say we don´t want wikitravel to become like the yellow pages. Many countries have a general link that lists embassies in that country, why not just add that one link (example http://www.government.nl/issues/embassies-consulates-and-other-representations), and just remove those long lists out of the articles? Either way, a change is definitely needed. Adzas (talk) 18:15, 23 February 2015 (EST)
In some cities, embassies may be a tourist attraction. In Canberra, countries use traditional architectures. In Beijing, embassies must be in designated embassy districts. In Paris, some embassies had cultural centres attached. Lawe (talk) 00:42, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Re: Wikitravel page User talk:VeritasVera has been created by IBilkka[edit]

Hello Wikitravel, A few weeks ago I got an email from user IBilkka about me editing some text on the Kampala page... ==========================================================================

Hi VeritasVera! Welcome to Wikitravel. I adjusted your edit on the Kampala page (just formatting), but can you double check the url of the Consulate you added, it does not seem to work. To help you further contributing, we've created a quick contribution guide and a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. --

IBilkka (talk) 18:55, 18 January 2015 (EST) ===========================================================================

But the truth be said: I have never edited anything on this page. My only aditing was on the page with Bosnian Common Phrases.

Thanks. Kind regards to all! Veritas Vera

Making Wikitravel Easier for Translators[edit]

Hi all,

I'm an amateur translator, with a few years of translation experience, mainly Japanese -> English, and I'm looking to fill in the gaps in some of the Wikitravel articles by translating them from better articles written in the local language. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and maybe everyone has been really efficient or something, because it's really difficult to find articles which need translating. I like to believe there are lots of articles out there written in someone's native language which would benefit more travellers by being translated to English, is there any way we can make an index for us translators?

I would be willing to translate Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Russian or Spanish to English, but all the work needed to contribute this technical expertise is really daunting. Thanks! —The preceding comment was added by HandsomeBoh (talkcontribs)

Hello HandsomeBoh! Help is always welcome! We do have one tool that may meet your expectations, the http://wikitravel.org/en/Category:Articles_needing_translation page! Hope this will help, otherwise, feel free to ask! Happy translation! PierrB (talk) 22:17, 21 February 2015 (EST)
I have seen that page, but it seems to have very few articles which need translating. Are you sure there aren't any others haha? —The preceding comment was added by HandsomeBoh (talkcontribs)
Hi, great that you want to help with the articles! We don´t really work with a list at the moment of articles to translate, we just plunge forward where we feel an article needs attention or needs translating. I am working on the dutch version where we just discuss with the users there and work on articles, and if I see a great article on the dutch version which is not yet complete on the english version, I would just work on that. Our main focus has been to improve existing articles so go ahead and jump in! Greatly appreciated! Adzas (talk) 06:27, 22 February 2015 (EST)


Inquiry about name change of article[edit]

Hello,

I hope I'm doing this well. I would like an advice. I made a wiki page about my town Kaštela. Now I'm thinking if it's going to be a problem for people trying to find it, as the letter š is not really in use. So I would like to make it that if somebody searches for Kastela also arrives to Kaštela page. Any help?

Thank you, Gandor —The preceding comment was added by Gandor (talkcontribs)

Names If you want to know more about how this software works, you can check MediaWiki's homepage to get all the documentation. The quick answer is that anyone can easily make a redirect from Kastela to Kaštela. Koavf (talk) 03:27, 24 February 2015 (EST)


Thank you very much Koavf. I don't know a lot about changing that stuff. I'm amateur. I really appreciate your help. :)

Thank you once again, Gandor —The preceding comment was added by Gandor (talkcontribs)

It looks like Koavf already made a re-direct, so all will be able to find your town. Thanks for your contributions! Adzas (talk) 09:48, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Banners are coming to every article![edit]

The Wikitravel team has been hard at work with the newest addition to the site, banner images on every page! The banners provide two major benefits:

  1. They streamline the positioning of the table of contents on every article while respecting the various screen resolutions that are in use today.
  2. They provide a beautiful hero image to kick off every article.

We encourage all travelers to create new banners on articles that are still missing one and to suggest image updates on articles that do.

We hope you enjoy and as always please feel free to provide feedback below! IBcaldera (talk) 16:57, 5 March 2015 (EST)

The team may indeed have been hard at work but the idea came from that Other Wiki and so did the actual template, withour proper attribution. You (specifically IBcaldera who uploaded it) need to either add attribution to comply with the CC-by-SA license or delete the file. Pashley (talk) 05:02, 6 March 2015 (EST)
I do not know of any legal jurisdiction where ideas (as opposed to their novel implementation) are legally protected intellectual property. You're correct that copying the code of a WikiMedia Foundation template without proper attribution is a copyright infringement in most material jurisdictions. However, IBcaldera may have a plea in mitigation that appropriate attribution is mechanically prevented here by the various filters that are in place.
To me what is more important is that the banners have been implemented in an even worse way than at that other place.
There's certainly an argument to be had that large images at the top of every article give a fresh and brighter feel to our guide (the downside being that there is no switch for logged in users who are on slow or expensive connections to turn them off - as they can do with the adverts).
However, it's pretty stupid to then go and uglify them by plonking a (defective and deficient) horizontal mini table of contents in their lower part.
(Was this a conscious decision or just the inadvertent result of unthinking plagiarism?)
It's then adding insult to injury to configure the template so that it irredeemably prevents a proper multi-level ToC from being displayed even if the magic word of __TOC__ is used to try and force the display of the multilevel table of contents that is often needed for effective copyediting or efficient use. 78.151.195.227 07:57, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Hello. Encouragement to create banners is interesting to me - but how can i look at the existing banners, other than on corresponding articles? Eg, i have checked this one and it has no its location (directory) on WT Shared. It looks like pending somewhere in the space. It is relevant to look at the existing banners before starting to create new or replace existing ones. Or did i miss something? And if i create the new one for some article - i assume i have to upload it to WT Shared, so do i need it to post on that article's talk page to make it available for admin review? I'm not entirely confident that my banner will be 100% suitable, at least technically, so i'd like to show it to admin first. Once i uploaded it to WT Shared i can show it. Isn't it enough, should i upload it to talk page too? I'm a regular user and am quite ignoramus, all i'm asking about is probably supposed to go without saying, but how i'm supposed to know those things if nobody tells them? :) . Most of the problems I face here is that i don't know almost all things that go without saying. --Local (talk) 05:00, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

Banners![edit]

Hi! Your banners are really nice, but regrettably, there can be errors. If you look at Surat Thani in Thailand, and Surat in India you will find that both have the same banner!!!!!! Please rectify! Avemario (talk) 06:40, 28 April 2015 (EDT)

Hey, Avemarino! Thanks for the feedback! I've updated the banners on Surat Thani and Surat now. IBcaldera (talk) 15:59, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
"Beautiful banners are coming to every article" - but is it worth the collateral damage of losing the table of contents in Country articles? 118.101.50.144 20:17, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
Absolutely Not! See what happens to itineraries: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=One_week_in_Sydney&oldid=2313525. It's ridiculous.
By all means have a standout, panorama style image at the top of some articles, but keep a working table of contents! 78.151.195.227 14:54, 16 May 2015 (EDT)


Linkspam[edit]

Please would someone who has the relevant tools revert the self-serving recent edits from the IP address of 77.107.90.82?
78.151.195.227 11:57, 18 May 2015 (EDT)

Mmmm, does nobody with admin privileges read here or wish to respond?
Surely this page should be on their watch lists - or is there another page that they read? 78.151.195.227 12:20, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Hi! Thanks for your message! Edits from this user have been removed yesterday and IP 77.107.90.82 has been blocked yesterday as well by our admin IBcaldera. Thanks again for keeping an eye on edits in this community! Warm regards, IBAlex (talk) 13:57, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Hey there, forgot to reply - handled it yesterday. Thanks for the heads up! IBcaldera (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Thanks for your response and effective action.
Is this the best place for these kind of alerts to be made, please? 78.151.195.227 20:21, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Spamming I didn't respond because IBcaldera had already reverted it and blocked the IP--I figured that addressed your concern. Please feel free to post here. Thanks. Koavf (talk) 00:43, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Thanks for your reply Justin - I'll assume it means that there is no "admins' noticeboard" or similar on this Wiki and, unfortunately, this is the best place for these kind of alerts to be made. 78.151.195.227 06:26, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Yep! I'd say this is the best place. It was definitely just my goof to not come back to confirm the changes were reverted/deleted. IBcaldera (talk) 14:03, 20 May 2015 (EDT)

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