This is the slush pile for Wikitravel:Star nominations -- articles that were not agreed to be of Star status yet. Articles in the slush pile can be renominated if the criticisms from the previous nomination are addressed.
Pretty comprehensive overall coverage of the activity from the point of view of an interested traveller considering learning to dive and beginning divers thinking of organising a dive holiday (it's probably actually the case that there may be two articles in there: Scuba diving destinations, and Scuba diving overview for travellers -- both of which examples show that I should not be naming articles!). Hypatia 00:49, 31 May 2006 (EDT)
- 1) A map pinpointing the most popular dive destinations might help out the geopolitically challenged who don't know where, say, Thailand or Malta is. 2) I think you may be right that this is more than one article. There's a lot here, and either splitting it up and editing it down to cover just the most-travel-related aspects would help. - 19:56, 31 May 2006 (EDT)
- Support. I've never been scuba diving, but I definately could go ahead and start my own scuba diving school with this article. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 09:07, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
- Support. The article definitely meets the criteria for star article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EmbrunOntario (talk • contribs)
- Oppose. I've been a big contributor to the article and I like it, but I think the index of scuba destinations up front needs a lot more work — it should cover all the biggies and give nutshell summaries. I don't think any splitting is needed at this stage. Jpatokal 09:40, 27 July 2006 (EDT)
Withdrawn pending addition of a map and improvements to the list of destinations. Hypatia 20:28, 31 July 2006 (EDT)
- It's a Guide, it's got a map and it's DOTM. Let's make it a Star if it isn't one already. Jpatokal 04:03, 1 October 2006 (EDT)
- Support- Sounds good. Are there any more things that could be added in the Do Section? Felixboy 14:11, 3 October 2006 (EDT)
- Don't support for the following reasons:
- "Do" section is less than stellar for a city of 500,000.
- There isn't a "Stay Safe" section or any information pertaining how to avoid hassles, being a crime victim, or natural disasters.
- Added. It's kinda hard to avoid earthquakes though.
- There isn't a "Cope" section.
- Section added, but it's empty...
- MoS is sketchy in some places.
- Some listings have little or no contact info (I.e. Yogyakarta#Sleep there isn't an address or phone number for "Monical Hotel". Also, under Yogyakarta#Museum we provide absolutely no information about the "Museum Batik". There's simply a link to a Wikipedia article about the painting technique, but nothing about the museum.) -- Sapphire 14:22, 3 October 2006 (EDT)
- Correct name is "Monica Hotel", I dug up a phone number but couldn't find an address. The Museum Batik is so obscure it's not listed in any of my guidebooks, so I just deleted it. Jpatokal 23:14, 3 October 2006 (EDT)
- detiled address for Monica Hotel has been added hermansaksono 00:01, 21 September 2007 (EDT)
- Don't Support. It's an awesome article, but. -- Colin 15:59, 4 November 2006 (EST)
- Bunches of entries lack addresses or directions. For example, the Saphir Square mall is listed as "Jalan Solo". If there is no further address that can be given then I withdraw the complaint.
- this has been fixed hermansaksono 00:01, 21 September 2007 (EDT)
- Phone numbers often fail MoS. Maybe switch to the newfangled listings tag and make it Not Your Problem?
- fixed hermansaksono 00:01, 21 September 2007 (EDT)
- No prices on Museums.
- this has been fixed hermansaksono 00:01, 21 September 2007 (EDT)
- Is JI an abbrev for Jalan? For consistency, it'd be nice if only one format is used.
- this has been fixed hermansaksono 00:01, 21 September 2007 (EDT)
- Would an address for the train station and bus station be helpful? Or do we just assume the reader will be going by taxi and the taxi driver knows where they are?
- Have a mentioned lately that I wish there was a level between guide and star?
- Don't support. Same reasons as above, especially the lack of things in "Do" and the lack of contacts (and info in some places) for "sleep" listings. I want to see this make it as a star, because its pretty close to being there if all these points are sorted. -- Tim 17:11, 4 November 2006 (EST)
- This thing has been pending for quite a long time. Have the objections been addressed, or should it be slush-piled for now? Let's make a decision here. (I have no strong opinions on this article myself.) -- Bill-on-the-Hill 20:12, 16 November 2006 (EST)
- There were quite a few problems and I believe only partial attempts to address the issues were made. It needs to be slush-piled. -- Sapphire
- I really don't think it's a Star yet, but it's not far away, and since someone unilaterally proclaimed it a Star (which I rolled back), it should at least be examined, in the spirit of "due process." A relatively small bit of work might make it a real, viable candidate. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 12:42, 24 November 2006 (EST)
- Shouldn't this process be for articles that the nominator believes are stars, and wants to get some confirmation from others before changing the status? We already have a lot of places to say, "This article is almost there, let's put it over the top;" and the Wikitravel:Collaboration of the Week is a good place to solicit that help. --Evan 11:18, 22 December 2006 (EST)
- Don't support yet. It's a good guide, but a couple of things to work on:
- -I'm not quite sure why it needs/gets a big maps of all of India's airports and sea ports, did I miss something?
- -Get around needs subsections
- -All listings need addresses, opening hours, etc in proper format
- -The writing could use a once-over, there's some repetition here and there, etc.
- -Get out needs to be figured out as there's way too much there. Some info should be moved to its own guide
- -The images don't all work as good illustrations of the destination.
- Maj 23:40, 26 November 2006 (EST)
I'm afraid I was the one who proclaimed it a star, sorry Bill! Someone deleted my map of the airports and the picture of train. I feel that it's agood move. I've tried to add and complete the listings and the Shopping and Eating lists are quite comprehensive now. The Get Out Section is ok, too. - upamanyu
- Nothing to be sorry about; there's now some incentive to improve the content in a way that will push it to Star, even though (IMO) it's not there yet. Let's see what develops. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 18:28, 27 November 2006 (EST)
- I added the info section and wrote more about the suburban railway in the get around section. please proclaim it a star if you think it's ready. you can also mail me on how to improve it, my ID is firstname.lastname@example.org -- User: Upamanyuwikitravel 17:55, 28 November 2006 (IST)
and please can you edit some of the stuff if you have time, English isn't my mother tongue.
Don't Support - This article has a lot of listings, but they are very incomplete for an article that would be moved to Star status. I do agree that this article is well on it's way, but almost all of the listings are just "name", "address" and in some cases "link". To be a Star I would think a good portion of the listing should have more complete information (ie: hours, prices, days, hours and a paragraph about the listing). With that done for at least half of the listings (do, see, drink, buy and sleep, plus the edits that User:Maj suggests, and a good Wikitravel map I think we could go with Star. I also notice that this is using the quickbar and I believe that is reserved for Country articles for now. -- Tom Holland (xltel) 16:42, 4 December 2006 (EST)
- Don't support. Most of the listings in this article are neither complete (no addresses, phon enumbers, hours, prices) nor formatted according to the MoS. The tables of travel info aren't covered in the MoS, and I think we need to have a standard before calling any such tables star-worthy. I've only made a cursory review, this is not a comprehensive list of problems. I'd like another chance to review after these problems have been fixed. --Evan 11:18, 22 December 2006 (EST)
- Don't support - this article just finished Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week, and while it was cleaned up a lot, it's still a ways away from Star status, its original Star initiator agrees that it's not there, and it's been discussed for nearly 6 weeks - I think it should be slushed... Cacahuate 01:22, 12 January 2007 (EST)
- As you consider Flores, consider the size of the place. I'm counting somewhere around 40 total city blocks- total- and you have not one, but TWO maps of the area, addresses/phones, everything even remotely worth seeing is included, I see no MOS violations (but then I'm a fairly untrained eye), and in the entire article the only two things I see that need sprucing up are details on ARCAS and the Petencito Zoo (in the sense that if you're including them, you might as well say something about them). Mtvcdm 00:01, 21 November 2006 (EST)
- It's a great article and it might not be too much work to get it to star, but it's not there right now. Keep in mind that to be a Star, it pretty much needs to conform to the Manual of Style perfectly and stuff like phone numbers, hours, and prices should all be present for every listing. Check out Wikitravel:Accommodation listings and see how stuff is supposed to be organized for the Sleep section. Currently the Sleep section formatting is kinda all over the place with placement of URLs, Phone Numbers, prices, and the placement of those annoying commas and full stops. If you choose to press forward with this, that would be great! -- Colin 16:48, 22 November 2006 (EST)
- Agree with Colin; not there yet, but could be pushed to Star status with relatively little effort. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 12:44, 24 November 2006 (EST)
- Ditto Bill. I will nominate this for CotW and that should sort out the MoS. -- Tim 08:34, 25 November 2006 (EST)
- So can this one be slushed? Consensus seems clear that it's not a Star yet. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:44, 8 December 2006 (EST)
- Maybe we can just work on it instead of tossing it back to oblivion? I just cleaned it up a little, but it needs more... Cacahuate 08:17, 9 December 2006 (EST)
- I added some info for ARCAS and the zoo and did more MoS work... what else needs doing? El Remate and a couple other sites in the area seem to be included in this article even though they aren't Flores, but maybe aren't worth their own articles and are so close anyway... I'm fine with them being included here... The Get Out map is great... Cacahuate 08:25, 16 December 2006 (EST)
- We're not going to delete it. How about adding it to Wikitravel:Collaboration of the week? --Evan 09:24, 16 December 2006 (EST)
- of course not, it just seemed to be getting more attention since it was here and up for nomination... I was suggesting we hurry up and fix the few things that are wrong since several of us agree that it's pretty close to star... but anyhoo, whaddya think of the article? Cacahuate 10:14, 16 December 2006 (EST)
- p.s., it already is nominated for CotW, but I didn't feel like waiting for it to have its day and fixed what I could see wrong now, so it should prob not become CotW now as there isn't a ton to do... Cacahuate 10:16, 16 December 2006 (EST)
Hey peoples, User:Windhorse and I have done some more cleanups and additions, any further comments from anyone? Cacahuate 10:27, 20 December 2006 (EST)
- Well, just to give you some idea of the level of perfectionism we're looking for on star article, let me give you an example. The Petencito Zoo is listed, but lacks a phone number, address, directions, hours, prices, and url (if available). Also, there should be a period (full-stop) before the plaintext description of the attraction. It's a great article, it's just that "Star" pretty much means perfect. Cheers! -- Colin 13:04, 5 January 2007 (EST)
- So, I've cleaned it up a bit more and added templates, but it still lacks a few phone #'s (if they exist), and some hours for the drink listings, things I can't get without being there... it's still a great article for such a tiny destination (and this time, unlike Berneray, it matches the thus far defined MoS better)... but I suppose, even after much effort, it still ain't perfect... what to do? Cacahuate 05:32, 13 January 2007 (EST)
Same story as for Pune; someone unilaterally proclaimed it a Star, so (after rolling it back) let's follow due process and discuss it. The article has much to recommend it, but the "nine-cities holy war" means that it is rather unstable, and discussions will be difficult to follow lacking a reference point. Let's try to discuss, anyway. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 19:00, 15 December 2006 (EST)
Don't support - the Do section is tragically small for a country of England's importance. There's more to do in England than just play golf.
The Get In should be proparly formatted - a list of airports won't do.
The Eat section is quite comprehensive. Perhaps nit could be made a CoW.
Upamanyuwikitravel 08:13, 18 December 2006 (EST)
Don't Support. My issue is the See section; you'd think there'd be a bit more than "England has a large and diverse range of attractions" and then divert the reader to a couple other websites- the point is that this page alone would be all you'd need. Even the most basic things would be enough for me- any four of London Bridge, Hadrian's Wall, Stonehenge, Big Ben, and Buckingham Palace should do it. Mtvcdm 01:49, 24 December 2006 (EST) (Edited to actually log in and then resign.)
good pics. Upamanyuwikitravel 06:08, 5 January 2007 (EST)
- Don't support. We don't have well-defined criteria for star travel topics. I don't even know if such criteria would be meaningful. --Evan 11:12, 5 January 2007 (EST)
- This article needs a new lead photo, the lead photograph was a train in Canada, not India. JYolkowski 13:09, 21 January 2007 (EST)
As a former resident, after having reviewed this city article is seems quite comprehensive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 8 January 2007 (EST)
- At a minimum the district articles need to be upgraded to guide status per Wikitravel:City guide status. The map is also a bit bare - it's minimally useful, but not what I'd consider a star article map. Many of the listings have no descriptions, addresses or contact info, and since the article is using the huge city article template the sleep and eat listings should be moved into the district articles. The text could also use work - the article reads as a list of information, rather than a guide to Cleveland. This article has a lot of useful information, but I think it still needs a considerable amount of work before it's a "star" article. -- Ryan 00:58, 9 January 2007 (EST)
- An additional notes, there is a lot of content in this article that is about cities in Greater Cleveland, rather than the city of Cleveland itself, and that content needs to be moved to the appropriate city article. -- Ryan 02:47, 9 January 2007 (EST)
This article is now quite complete and I would like to see some input and comments from the community on what might still be wrong with it or how it can still be improved in order to qualify for star status. NJR_ZA 03:13, 17 January 2007 (EST)
- Don't support, yet! I really like this article, I think it more or less meets all the criteria for being a star except that a lot of the destination articles mentioned on the page are at outline or usable status. If we can increase the number of guide status pages, then I'd support. But for now, although this article would probably be really useful to a traveller, the lack of high quality city articles would be a problem! Having said this, I did only briefly look at the status at the bottom of the city pages - if these are out of date, and enough of them are at guide status then I would happily support this nomination. -- Tim 03:38, 17 January 2007 (EST)
- Good point, thanks. NJR_ZA 03:43, 17 January 2007 (EST)
Quite a comprehensive country article. Needs a bit of re-organizing and MoSing but that's about it. 18.104.22.168 09:45, 21 January 2007 (EST)
- Opinion pending - it is a great article, but all those things should be fixed before it's nominated for star. I also just noticed on the country guide status page that it's the only one that doesn't specify what the sub-articles need to be - For City, Region, etc in order for one to become a star all of the sub-articles would have to be at least "guide" status... I'm curious about people's view on that here: Wikitravel talk:Country guide status ::: Cacahuate 12:24, 21 January 2007 (EST)
- Don't support - I agree with Tim's comment on my submission of South Africa. It's no use having a very good top level country page if there is not enough information to support it in the sub-articles. We will just have to work harder in order to make a country a star. NJR_ZA 13:21, 21 January 2007 (EST)
To be honest I can't think of much more to put in this article. The town isn't bigger than this and I'd appreciate some input if someone is missing something in the article, or if it should be considered complete. Jake73 15:36, 14 February 2007 (EST)
- Abstain for now - Just had a quick look before I'm off to bed. You might want to add eatpricerange and sleeppricerange
- Good idea. Added. (PS: why does the eat box have more space between the lines than the sleep box?)Jake73 16:16, 14 February 2007 (EST)
- Support. The "See" and "Do" sections are not quite in line with the MOS and could do with some specfic shops in the "Buy" section, but overall it is a good article with good photographs and a map. -- DanielC 17:06, 14 February 2007 (EST)
- Don't support. As mentioned above, See and Do don't match attraction listings format. Restaurants and bars need hours and estimated prices. Geocoding would help but isn't strictly necessary. Otherwise, it looks really good. --Evan 17:28, 14 February 2007 (EST)
- Opinion Pending - there's just 1 tiny problem, the prices of restaurants and bars aren't given, nor are the opening hours. Otherwise GREAT article! Once that's been fixed, I'll fully support. Upamanyuwikitravel 04:02, 26 February 2007 (EST)
- Support. Great article. I would like to see more of them.elisa
- Looks great. Listings follow MoS to the dot. No map, only problem - Upamanyuwikitravel 10:59, 18 February 2007 (EST)
- Don't support - nice effort, again, Upamanyu, but we shouldn't really nominate an article until it has everything it needs - if you know it doesn't have a map, then you know it won't pass through this nomination process, and we shouldn't use this page just to draw attention to articles - Cacahuate 11:56, 18 February 2007 (EST)
- Sorry Cacahuate, I just wanted to draw attention to it since someone might take the initiative to make a map once its on the star nominations list. Any others problems with the article?? - I'll try to clean them up. Upamanyuwikitravel 03:52, 19 February 2007 (EST)
- I'll have a look at it later and see if I see anything other than the map, and I'll comment on the Shimla talk page, as I don't want to encourage this page to be used for this purpose, it should be used for articles that are already believed to be right on the cusp or stardom. As an aside, we're slowly talking about making some other sort of page/project that would serve this duty, I'll try to further what I was thinking on that soon too. - Cacahuate 04:21, 19 February 2007 (EST)
I can't think of much more to put in this article. The park and surrounding options has been covered. Edits and clean ups done. Any suggestions? - wikusdutoit 09:00, 3 March 2007 (CAT)
- Don't Support -- I know you put quite a bit of work into this article, but I don't think it is really star potential yet. I'll list my concerns on Talk:Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park rather than here, that way we will have it with the article and can work on getting those things resolved. --NJR_ZA 08:41, 4 March 2007 (EST)
I haven't done much editing to this article, but I think the contributors who have made this article what it is have done a fantastic job, such detailed and reliable information on such an obscure and secretive destination deserves positive recognition --MiddleEastern 13:22, 9 March 2007 (EST)
- Do not support. All of the objections that were raised to declaring Finland a star apply in spades to this one -- rudimentary regional structure, very few destinations within the country that are developed at all, let alone to Guide status, etc. Star status isn't a "reward" for the contributors; it's an evaluation of the content of the article. I agree that contributors have done a fantastic job with a very difficult subject, so maybe give 'em Barnstars, but the article definitely isn't a Star and won't be without a great deal of development. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 13:32, 9 March 2007 (EST)
- Do not support, for the reasons Bill identified. I'd argue for being flexible about some of the Star criteria if (for example) a country only has one or two real cities, but that's not true of North Korea. The fact that it's very difficult to write a guide about North Korea... simply makes getting this article to Star status very difficult; it's not a reason to relax the standards. - Todd VerBeek 18:11, 9 March 2007 (EST)
- Do not support. Check out Wikitravel:Country guide status for what we're looking for if you want to move forward on this. -- Colin 18:23, 9 March 2007 (EST)
We have not had a nomination in a while, so I thought it's time to see what it will take to get the first African star article.
As far as I know this is quite complete, but the town is growing fast and I will be updating it with changes, additions and the occasional delete every January after my yearly visit down there. I know that a new regional shopping mall is due to open later this year, a large hotel is being build and a whole new residential area is being developed, so there will definitely be an update early next year.
So, let's have it, tell me what I missed and what still needs to be done to make this one a star. --NJR_ZA 18:11, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
- It's a very good article, but the map has several unlabeled short dead-end streets... OK, maybe that's not important. :) I do have to say that I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the photos of businesses. I know: they're welcomed in the Japanese WT, but here in English we've avoided them, and I'm concerned about the slippery slope of encouraging hoteliers and resauranteurs to use the power of images to spotlight their place over others', and the perception of it as advertising. As a traveler, I prefer to see more general photos of the shopping district rather than specific shops. I can see the value of showing a specific store/hotel/whatever as an example of what to expect, but a photo of just a sign ceases to have that kind of general usefulness and looks more like an advert to me. It could have some copyright/trademark-law implications as well. I'm not sure this is the place to debate this issue, nor whether it's applicable to the question of Star status, but... there it is. - Todd VerBeek 20:22, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
- Good points, thanks for the feedback. I think the photos for Billabong and Walskipper should be OK. Both are landmarks in the area and JBay is Billabong Country (the entrance to JBay is even marked as such). I'll remove the sign and vfd the image. The Mexican and Marina Martinique B&B images I can replace with something more general (one thing I am not short of is JBay photos). --NJR_ZA 03:53, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
- Don't support - it's got a lot of potential and is a good article, but many listings are very sparse - need descriptions, address, hours, estimated prices, etc for every listing. Some directional things would be nice too... for example, where is the internet cafe, the gym, the gift shops and the laundromat? It doesn't describe them in the article and they aren't on the map. Once that and Todd's picture issues are sorted though, I think it's a good contender for Star status. Nice map... That must have taken you forever with all the tiny curvy lanes! Could you add a scale to it, I'm curious about the distances... – cacahuate talk 23:58, 7 May 2007 (EDT)
- Thanks, noted. I'll have a look into those issues. I don't think this one is going to make it this time round, but I'd still like to see some more comments. I'd like to use this feedback to expand Wikitravel:Status_rating a bit so people (including myself) will have a clearer idea of what is required. --NJR_ZA 01:00, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
- As a meta-note, it's unusual for us to have a "nominations" page where the nominator typically doesn't believe that the thing they're nominating deserves the status they're nominating it for. I think we really need a separate process for this, since it's really confusing for people.--Evan 11:29, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
- I agree that a request for peer review type page will be a good idea, but that is actually not why I nominated this. I was going thru some of the stuff I have worked on before and noted that this does actually comply with Wikitravel:Status_rating; so when I nominated it I did not expect that it will have any major issues becoming a star. Having seen the comments I have changed my mind and am quite sure that it needs quite a bit more work before it will be ready. I'd like to take these and any additional comments and create a more complete checklist of what the minimum requirements are. That way one has a list of requirements to tick off rather than just a vague follows the manual of style exactly and has appropriate illustrations, such as photos and a map. --NJR_ZA 00:05, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
- I think expanding the requirements (or detailing them) is a great idea. And we do need something similar to Peer Review, we've talked a little about it over the last few months, but nothing has transpired as of yet... see Wikitravel_talk:Star_articles#Star_Potential. I believe in you Nick, wow us with an amazing new idea (and actually implement it!). Something needs to happen :) – cacahuate talk 02:33, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
- Want to support, but... Good article, great map & photos, but as others have pointed out listings need a description for it to be a star article, otherwise we risk developing yet another yellow pages. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:44, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
I haven't wanted to nominate Cincinnati for star status for a long time because I didn't want to make that the objective when I edited the guide. Anyhow, I know it's not perfect - there are still some MoS issues that I'm sure I continue to overlook. As a result, I'm now nominating Cincinnati to let everyone pick and prod so I can find the weak spots in the article and improve the guide. Of course, I invite you to fix any problems you see. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 12:03, 14 June 2007 (EDT)
- I think it's a great guide and, to my unsophisticated eye, it looks close to being a star. Having been there a couple of times, I think you should mention the symbiotic (parasitical?) relationship that Covington has with Cincinnati - e.g. all of those giant hotels just across the river, and the huge amounts of business travelers (myself included, I'm ashamed to say) who get lured into spending their hotel cash there instead. I'd also like to see more covert Afghan Whigs references in the text, but I understand that's not part of the article grading criteria. Gorilla Jones 17:17, 14 June 2007 (EDT)
- Couple more things - style of time used needs to be consistent throughout the article (should be am/pm, since it's the USA), and while the map is terrific (I am endlessly impressed by mapmakers), can you chop off the excess white space on the far right? Gorilla Jones 17:27, 14 June 2007 (EDT)
- I've known about the time styling issues for months, but I just didn't have the heart to revert everything to AM/PM (Yuck!), especially after this. I'm not sure if I'll be able to bring myself to convert every single 17:00 to 5PM so I may need help from anyone who isn't offended by such a crude system to convert times. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 17:41, 14 June 2007 (EDT)
I hope more people will chime in on this. It strikes me as a very good article. Here's what I've got:
The 'Get In' section leads with the sentence "There are two airports close to Cincinnati", but only describes one, offering a few suggestions for alternatives in the paragraph. Is there intended to be a clear-cut second? If not, strike the sentence.
In 'See', we need a description for the Cincinnati Music Hall (what kind of shows do we see there?)
Most attractions in that first 'See' section need price information.
Are tours available for the Ingalls Building and the PNC Tower, or do people just see them from the outside?
Also wondering if the Creation Museum belongs in Get Out or if it's really close enough to be considered a Cincinnati attraction.
Need a description for the Fire Museum.
Among the Parks, noting that Eden Park is free implies that other parks may not be. If they're all free, strike the sentence.
Need a description for Playhouse in the Park.
Geographically, I'm a little unclear on where the amusement parks sit relative to Cincinnati.
If Riverfest is the city's biggest bash, I want more details about what goes on there.
The Bengals haven't won the AFC during Marvin Lewis's tenure.
In 'Buy', Saks Fifth Avenue and Tower Place need descriptions, and Saks needs hours.
Some restaurants need hours. Cumin needs a description.
Groceries would fit better after Budget rather than after Splurge.
Morton's of Chicago needs a description.
The "while single people may disagree" sentence in 'Drink' is unclear. Does that refer to individual people isolated from the crowd or to date-less people in general? Why do they disagree?
- Blue Wisp need a description.
In 'Sleep', the Hyatt Regency needs a description.
What do I need to connect to Cincinnati Bell Wi-Fi? What does it cost?
Does the airplane advisory in 'Get Out' belong in 'Get In'?
And there's my piece. Gorilla Jones 13:52, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
- I tried to finish this list off. Lanskeith17 13:27, 29 June 2007 (EDT)
- I'll get started on fixing things, but there are a few things I'm curious about too.
- The Creation Museum is roughly 25 miles from Cincinnati by car and is located in some hick town in Northern Kentucky, so I'm unclear if we should list it in the Cincinnati guide. When the place opened all the major news outlets would say "the museum, outside of Cincinnati", which may cause people to associate the museum as being in or within a couple of miles of Cincinnati. Should this reference be removed?
- The amusement parks (Kings Island) are located about 20 miles from Cincinnati too, but as far as I know, travelers are likely to associate the amusement parks with Cincinnati. How should this be handled? They're already listed in Mason (Ohio), which is where they are technically located.
- Kings Island is advertized as a Cincinnati spot (and it always has been) Lanskeith17 13:31, 29 June 2007 (EDT)
- I don't understand the part about the PNC or Ingalls buildings. I'm not sure anyone would want to tour either building and I really can't imagine a huge corporation like PNC wanting to provide tours of the building while their employees are working. Aside from the interesting architecture, I'm not sure they would be noteworthy sights, although Tom Cruise (and Dustin Hoffman?) did film part of Rain Man in the PNC building. Anyone have thoughts?
- PNC/ Ingalls are important historical landmarks for Cincinnati. They might not have tours, but you can easily spot them and appreciate regardless of a tour. They should stay in. Lanskeith17 13:31, 29 June 2007 (EDT)
- The single line is supposed to be a joke (keep those guides lively), which refers to Cincinnati's ever closing-down nightlife scene. A lot of places that are popular spots for singles continually go out-of-business, which gets blamed on a lack of business, despite these places being very popular. I'll remove it because I don't feel like explaining the joke in the guide. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 14:40, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
- Just as an aside, I plan to fix the things you pointed out, but my ability to focus and concentrate, along with my ability to stay alert is suffering – concussion. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:10, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
- No hurry! I think it's against the grading criteria for potential star articles to worsen concussions. I would move the Creation Museum to Get Out (and the Northern Kentucky article, if it exists), and drop the PNC/Ingalls listings. You could mention them in a paragraph describing the downtown area, or forget them entirely. If you think single people disagree with the Forbes report, then go with the single peoples' opinions. It just need a small clarifier. You could say something like, "A report in Forbes called Cincinnati the best place in the nation for singles, something actual Cincinnati singles might find surprising in light of the city's ever closing-down nightlife." (I'm still foggy on whether that refers to early closing hours each night or the fact that a lot of clubs have been closing permanently of late.) Gorilla Jones 16:28, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
- Almost support. Good article! Beautiful opening pic. Will support once the above is finished being fixed, and a few more:
- Map needs excess white space removed from right side, and svg uploaded
- All listings should be represented on the map... are most of them missing because they're off the scale of the map? If so, maybe map should be expanded, or more neighborhood maps should be made? Sorry, not familiar with Cincinatti!
- Several Eat listings need hours and prices
- Several of the sleep listings need prices
- There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on phone # formats for US #'s, and Wikitravel:Phone numbers should be updated since we're using the new tags more now (which don't allow for the italicized area code)... but I think either +1 (xxx) xxx-xxxx or +1 xxx xxx-xxxx would look a little more standard...
That's what I can see! Looks close! – cacahuate talk 04:51, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
- Don't support. But of course this decision is subject to revision. I really like the article, but the listings need some more tender love and MoS. Also, I don't know how much this is reaching, but from a traveler's perspective (and I have one here because I'm planning a road trip for next week that may well include a couple days in Cincinnati) Covington (Kentucky) and Newport (Kentucky) are basically the same city as Cincinnati, regardless of the state-administrative boundaries. And the Covington article in particular is really underdeveloped—the understand section consists of a short description of the city's street grid with weird capitalization. I don't know whether it's fair to bring up these other articles in this discussion, but they just seem an awful lot like districts of Cincinnati that (in Covington's case) haven't even broken past the outline status. From my perspective, this brings down the quality of the Cincinnati guide and makes it feel as though something is missing. On a related note, I think it would be nice to include some listings just across the river on the map.
On another note, the map is beautiful, but seems kind of short on listings given the large number present in the article. Can more restaurants/bars be added to the map? Or would they be off the map in some other part of the city? If they are in a different area, could we put up a larger, less detailed map of the city to help orient travelers? (whoops I see Cacahuate made this exact point right before me)
Here are a few things that caught my eye while going over listings' hours:
- Government square section seems a bit out of place? I was surprised to see it where it is and then had to read over it carefully just to understand why this information was being presented.
- Cincinnati zoo hours: from when until early October? Is it open in the winter?
- Listings phone numbers should have the non-local calling part in italics... ;) Just kidding, but this bothers me too!
- A fair number of listings are missing hours, price ranges, and/or descriptions (although they look like listings that should have these things)
- I got some of them, but some price ranges have extraneous spaces around the dash
Well, so, some work to be done, but nothing impossible! --Peter Talk 06:23, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
- Two things...
- Newport and Covington cannot really be considered the same city as Cincinnati, despite what Covington hopes and says. Newport bills itself as a separate destination and does kind of deserve the respect of being a separate destination, especially with all the development and future plans it has. Plus, if I recall, criteria states nothing about making stars out of neighboring places before another place can be called a star.
- Yes, many of the listings mentioned in the guide are outside the coverage of the current map. The problem is... I suck at map making and will be unable to develop anything further. If someone else, who has the skills want's to take a stab at a general map I'll fill it in with the details. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 23:08, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
- I've updated the map, but I'm waiting for the cache to respond. I may be making more changes, so I'll upload the SVG file later. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 01:23, 24 June 2007 (EDT)
- Also, Peter, how does Government Square seem out of place? It serves no other purpose than a hub for public buses and I should mention it is the most important stop for anyone who uses the bus service. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 01:32, 24 June 2007 (EDT)
- Initially it just seemed awkward to me so I mentioned it. Looking back, I think that it only seemed awkward because the subheader "Government square" looked strange under "Get around"—kind of jarring from a skimmer's perspective because "government square" sounds to the uneducated ear like an attraction. Maybe it would look better without the subheader (just as a paragraph under "By bus") and starting with a sentence like, "Government square is the main hub for public buses in Cincinnati." Nothing terribly important, but it did catch my eye on a read-through. --Peter Talk 01:41, 24 June 2007 (EDT)
- About the map, what part of making a general map do you need help with? I wouldn't mind creating the street layout, if you could email me an image of an outlined map area (on a satellite image or existing map image) that would cover the article listings not present in the downtown map. I don't know the area very well, so that part would be hard for me. --Peter Talk 15:48, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
- Basically, I can't design all the wonderful details you cartographers do. For the purposes, of this guide I think we'd be good with a UC/Clifton/Coreyville map and a Hyde Park/East Walnut Hills map. For the most part, our guide doesn't take the reader outside of these areas, except for a few exceptions like the Zoo. I've got a street map of Cincinnati, but it has a lot of detail that's useless for our purposes. If you zoom in on the letter "A" that would be Hyde Park a map from Observatory and up to I-71 would be useful. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 23:02, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
- So a map bounded by Observatory, Dana Ave, I-71, and Marburg/Ridge Ave would work? --Peter Talk 23:35, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
- That would work, but if the eastern boundary could be expanded to Ault Park/Columbia Parkway that would be awesome. It'd be ideal if you could focus on the Edwards Road/Erie Avenue/Paxton Avenue, and follow Observatory Avenue all the way into Ault Park. Erie Avenue has several shops and restaurants I want to list, plus the US' oldest observatory is near Ault Park, if I'm not mistaken. -- 22.214.171.124 00:27, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
- That's the eastern boundary you want extended, right? I'll see what I can whip up over the next few days. Unfortunately, its design won't match exactly the existing Cincinnati map, but it shouldn't be too far off. --Peter Talk 04:00, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
- Yep. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 04:24, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
- I think Newport's article is as good as it needs to be right now. I understand Peter's feelings about Covington, though - it is kind of like a (bland) district of the bigger city. I wouldn't hold back my support for the star based on Covington, but it'd be good to have it at usable status. That would only require descriptions for a couple more restaurants and a couple of bars, and a note as to whether Budget accommodation can or cannot be found in Covington. (My assumption is no, since the big box hotels are there, but I could be wrong.) Having done that, we would have fulfilled 98% of travelers' needs vis a vis Covington. Gorilla Jones 00:23, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
The two weeks have definitely expired, but I'm hoping people are amenable to giving this article another round of consideration - fixing the minor flaws got lost in a torrent of new listings from a new user, Lanskeith17. Here some more to chew on:
- Why was the Skywalk built? Why and where would I take it? Is it a covered path (hence the reference to beating the weather)? Is it free and pedestrian-only?
- Several entries under 'See', particularly in the first half, lack admission.
- Need info for Timberwolf Amphitheater. Also, aren't concert venues usually under Drink?
- Price for King's Island
- Drop a couple lesser festivals - there are quite a few listed here
- Prices for the university athletics, also phone for U of Cincinnati
- Description of the noteworthy shopping districts - what does each one offer? I see only two descriptions.
- Hours for Aglamesis Bros, Ingredients, Jim Dandy's Family BBQ, Tucker's Restaurant, Busken Bakery.
- Personally, I wouldn't brag about having attracted Dick Cheney to anything
- Info for Empress Chili
- Hours for Skyline Chili, Camp Washington, Camp Washington Chili
- Need description for Nicholson's
- Hours for Boi Na Braza, McCormick & Schmick's, Teller's of Hyde Park
- Description for McFadden's, Blue Jazz Wisp Club
- What kind of latest music at the Poison Room? Also need hours
- Hours for Whiskey Dick's, Alchemize, City View Tavern,
- Description for Comfort Inn & Suites, Gaslight B&B
- Price for Hilton Netherland, Hyatt Regency
- Is food really accepted by homeless people? That section seems awkward.
- I would structure the Get Out section - separate right-next-door day-trips from four-hour ones.
- The way in which Hours are given need to be standardized throughout the article. Someone ought to schmooze OldPine... Gorilla Jones 15:35, 8 July 2007 (EDT)
This article is right on the verge of being totally complete, so I'm going to go ahead and nominate it to see if we can get the kinks worked out and make it a star. The main missing element is a map, which I've tried to make before but found myself hopelessly lost. There might be some minor MoS issues here and there. Another concern of mine is that the History section (which I had a large hand in writing, mea culpa) is somewhat bloated. However, context is really important to understanding why Charlotte is what it is, so most of the info would be helpful to visitors wondering where the @!#$ the historic district is.
But on the whole, I'm pretty proud of this article as it's come a long way over the past couple of years. The districts are mostly complete, and the listings are up to date. Any questions/comments would be very helpful in trying to fix the remaining deficiencies. -- Bruinsbuddy42 15:59, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
- Wow! I'm surprised I haven't noticed this before--this is a fantastic guide! After a very quick lookover, I've noticed a few MoS related things and, of course, the lack of a map. But content-wise, this really does look complete and well put together.
- As the city has been "districtified" all eat, drink, sleep, etc. listings should be in the district articles, not the main city article.
- I'm not sure whether we are yet requiring this, as our article status policies have not been updated to reflect it, but it would be best if all listings were converted to use the listings templates (e.g., * <eat name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" hours="" price="" url=""></eat>) because that will enable automated listings adjustments if/when we make adjustments to the Wikitravel:Manual of style. This is a rather big task, though.
- One of the big city criteria is that all districts must be at least guide status in order for the city to be a star. The districts look pretty good and could be upgraded without too much work.
- Because this city has districts, I think two maps are in order: a general overview street map with at least the principal "see" listings, and a map showing the districts' relations to each other and their boundaries (see Chicago for an example). I can help with the maps.
- There may be a few other tweaks to be made, but after a quick skim, these were the main issues that jumped out. Don't support at least until these four issues are resolved (except maybe number 2). --Peter Talk 18:00, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
Don't support. Really nice article with a lot of information (a little too much in some cases - I'd drop the list of radio stations, for example), but per many discussions in the slush pile, it's better to hold off nominating an article until it actually does fulfill the star requirements, rather than when you think it's getting close. Seek out some map wizards and ask them for map help on their user pages. The lack of a map and the other points described by Peter, particularly the first and third, mean it can't be a star. (Also, a lot of listings on the main page don't have hours or prices, and some, like the nightclubs, don't have any description at all.) Please keep up the great work and let's come back to this one later. Gorilla Jones 18:58, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
This is probably one of our best travel topics. I want to use this as a test case for developing criteria for Star travel topics. — Ravikiran 02:26, 31 July 2007 (EDT)
- Support after edits: I vote for moving Passenger Rights into a separate page, both for easier use for wikitravellers and as its content is not as mature as in the rest of the article. After that, I support Star nomination for Fundamentals. --DenisYurkin 17:53, 31 July 2007 (EDT)
- Don't support. There's a wealth of good information in the article, and it's well-written. But the divisions between Tips for flying, Fundamentals of flying, First and business class travel, and Round the world flights seem fuzzy to me, and it'll get even moreso if there's a fifth page of Passengers' rights added to the hierarchy. A sort of disambiguation page telling me exactly what distinct offerings are on each Flying page would help. (Imagine a country page, but the country is Flying, and the regions are these topics.) And then make sure they aren't duplicating each other. (Right now, there are tips in Fundamentals, for example.) There are several external links throughout the article, especially in the first section, that must be against the policy. The other flying articles (business travel most egregiously) also have this problem. We need to determine if the external links policy is different for this kind of article. (There are also some Wikipedia links in the text, like Richard Reid.) Gorilla Jones 21:35, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
This has come a long way from being a vfd candidate a few years ago. Except perhaps for a few photos, I cannot think how it might be improved further. Is it a star yet? Pashley 02:08, 24 August 2007 (EDT)
- Undecided, but inclined to oppose. This is very well written and organized, entirely up to the level we expect of Star articles, and is likely to be helpful to someone starting to explore the topic. However, I conjecture (admittedly without first-hand knowledge) that the business of teaching ESL is, in practice, so intricate that an article this brief can't live up to the criteria appearing in Template:Startopic, namely "covers the topic completely with great information and visuals" (my emphasis added). Covering this topic "completely" probably takes a book, not an article -- which is not a knock on the article itself, but I'm just not convinced that it can be a Star. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:54, 26 August 2007 (EDT)
- Ditto. This is a great article, but I too wondered whether it is possible to say of it that it "covers the topic completely," since full-length books are published on the topic. Next time I get to a bookstore, I'll take a look at one of these books and then I'll come to a decision regarding my vote. On another note, perhaps a photo or two would be nice? --Peter Talk 21:48, 28 August 2007 (EDT)
- Of course it is not complete — as you say, that would take at least one book — but this is a travel guide, not an encyclopedia or a career counselling site. Is it complete enough for a travel guide? I think so; it gives a decent overview, enough to get a traveller started on considering whether teaching English is for him or her, and enough links that he/she can find more if required. Pashley 23:41, 28 August 2007 (EDT)
- I agree it needs a picture or two, but I have none to hand. Anyone? Pashley 23:41, 28 August 2007 (EDT)
- Is it complete enough for a travel guide? That's a tough question, because I don't know of any other travel guides that would have a general teaching English article. But then again, I don't know of any other serious world-wide travel guides. I think it might qualify as a complete overview, but I just think we need to be clear about how we reconcile the "star-ification" of an article like this with our travel topic star criteria. It might be necessary to revise those criteria somewhat. As for photos, surely someone working on this site is currently teaching English? If so, they could probably coax some students into a model release for a classroom shot? Otherwise this looks kind of funny. --Peter Talk 08:31, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
- Peter's suggestion makes sense. Let's take a look at the criteria and then come back to this one. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 19:33, 30 August 2007 (EDT)
- I can probably dig out a classroom picture or two from my ESL days. Gorilla Jones 19:45, 30 August 2007 (EDT)
- I added one. Not a thing of beauty, though. But then, ESL rarely is.
- Everything about this article is good - the writing, the organization - but there's too much missing to call it a star. To me, if it's a star topic, I should be able to refer someone to it as their one-stop source for that topic. They shouldn't need to learn much more at all from external links. There are a lot of quirks to working in Japanese eikaiwa that come as a shock to many people moving over there, thinking they're going to be the English teacher they remember from grade school. If this topic is a star, it needs to anticipate common misunderstandings and disabuse them from an insider's perspective. All it currently does is tell me to search the web for opinions, and that some will be happy, others will be angry rants. Even moreso, I'd like to come away from a star version of this topic knowing what the difference is between ESL schools in China, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan, and Korea. (Let alone Europe.) But doing that is going to rely heavily on personal anecdotes, and the only way to deal with that is Wikipedian NPOV, and that's going to lead to something as utterly useless as Wikipedia's eikaiwa articles. There's nothing about the challenges of teaching ESL, nothing about how to make a lesson plan or how to use supplements, nothing about classroom manner. I don't mean to be negative about this article, because it's exactly what Pashley described it as - a decent overview - I just don't think a decent overview can be a star. Gorilla Jones 22:15, 30 August 2007 (EDT)
- Could it be a star if we call it Introduction to Teaching English? --Peter Talk 22:21, 30 August 2007 (EDT)
- I wrote above "Except perhaps for a few photos, I cannot think how it might be improved further." Gorilla Jones's criticism answers that question very well. So this clearly is not a star yet. Can I withdraw the nomination? More important, the gorilla points out a good path for improvement. Anyone care to plunge forward on that path? Pashley 23:52, 30 August 2007 (EDT)
- I'll watchlist it and try to help out a little between Chicago barrages. Whether it becomes a star or not in the future, this is a great example of the things Wikitravel does that print guides don't. Gorilla Jones 19:39, 31 August 2007 (EDT)