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:Thanks, several good points. Should keep me busy for a few hours. [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:Thanks, several good points. Should keep me busy for a few hours. [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:Make that days. [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 07:09, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:Make that days. [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] <small><sup>[[User_Talk:Pbsouthwood|Talk]]</sup></small> 07:09, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
 +
 +
Okay, so my next lots of edits and views follow:<br>
 +
''Support'' I have continued editing the article and  with respect to the '''See''' section, have only minor changes to make in general.
 +
However, there are a couple of consistency issues which apply to the article overall:
 +
* Capitalization: I have altered and adapted in ways that seem to fit but in some respects have not been sure how to accomplish your aim. Fish Hoek Reef is mentioned, and then Fish Hoek reef. I changed Rockland point since Millers and Oatlands were both capitalised, but there should be consistency here.
 +
* Simon's Town, Miller's point, Simon's Bay etc. Is this accustomed usage? Because to me, Millers Point and Simonstown are the accepted usage. I have corrected one instance of Simons Town, since the bulk of the rest of the artucle seems to stick with Simon's Town, but it'd be worth making a decision on which form you wish to go with.
 +
* directions and winds: south-east or south east or South East? Or South east? All variants are present.
 +
* dates, specifically of wrecks. 18th June or 18 June or June 18? All are present.
 +
 +
Then, specifically, the description of Castle Rocks is a repeat of the Miller's Point description. Surely that should be changed?
 +
 +
Also, under offshore False Bay reefs, there is reference to Table Mountain sandstone and Cape Peninsula pluton -- should these be in italics?
 +
But, overall, wow. Great intro and overview.
 +
 +
[[User:Seascapeza|Seascapeza]] 05:26, 21 October 2010 (EDT)
  
 
==Nominations to remove Star status==
 
==Nominations to remove Star status==

Revision as of 09:30, 21 October 2010

This is where we determine whether an article is ready for be classified as Star status. Even though the criteria are fairly objective, it's good to get some additional eyes to look over a page and confirm that it's ready before elevating it to Star. For reference, here's the general description, from Wikitravel:Article status:

The article is essentially complete. It meets all of the above criteria. It follows the manual of style exactly or is the exception that proves the rule. Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable. It has appropriate illustrations, such as photos and a map. Enough breadth and depth of material is presented that anyone familiar with the subject of the article would have little to point out as absent. Future changes to this kind of article would reflect changes in the subject (e.g. a museum closes, a hotel price changes, a new airport is built) more than they'd require improvements in the coverage.

Objective criteria for Star status varies depending on the kind of article it is. For more concrete guidance on this, see:


If you feel that an article currently at Star status is no longer worthy, or never was to begin with, this is also the place to nominate to de-star an article.

Contents

Nominate

Star articles: Last minute checklist

  • The article must be complete — See definition above.
  • Grammar and spelling must be perfect — See definition above. Prose should be stylistically superior and effective.
  • Illustration: the article should be appropriately illustrated with pictures and a Wikitravel-style map, with all attractions marked.
  • Listings should be in alphabetical order — geographical order is also acceptable if it is deemed better.
  • No duplications: a listing should appear under one section only — if there is ambiguity, put it under the section that it most applies to.
  • Time and date formats: Use: M,Tu,W,Th,F,Sa,Su; "...daily" not "Daily..."; "midnight and noon" not "12AM and 12PM"; "AM PM" not "am pm". (Examples: "M-F noon-11PM" and "9AM-9PM daily").
  • Section introductions are not mandatory but should be present when they serve to improve a section.
  • Use "—" (mdash) for breaks in thought.
  • Use abbreviations for addresses, e.g., St, Ave, Ln, Blvd.


You can nominate any "guide" quality article you think is ready to be declared a "star". Please do not nominate an article if you know that it falls short of the criterion above — refer to the info box for a last minute checklist. If there are other nominations on this page, add yours to the bottom of the list. The basic format of a nomination is as follows:

===[[Article name]]===
This has everything we're looking for,
plus a swell kitchen sink. ~~~~

Having done this, please replace the {{guide...}} tag with

{{starnomination}}

at the bottom of the nominated article. You also need to post a note at the Wikitravel:Travellers' Pub to publicize your nomination — remember to tell people that partial critiques and even just a few quick words of support are welcome. These steps help draw attention to the article's nomination, improving the discussion as to whether it should be awarded star status.

Discuss

Please comment on whether you agree that the nominated article is ready, with a bullet point (*) and your signed opinion. If you think it's ready, a simple "Support" will do. If not, explain what you think is missing or not up to standards. You don't have to leave a detailed critique to vote on the star — partial critiques are welcome, and feel free to just voice your support for the hard work someone else has done.

===[[Article name]]===
This has everything we're looking for, plus a swell kitchen sink.  TravelNut 25:25, 31 Feb 2525 (EDT)
* The sink isn't properly formatted, and there are no "budget" places to sleep. ~~~~

After three weeks of discussion, if a consensus is reached, then that article becomes a star, and the discussion should be archived. Note that a consensus means that all outstanding objections should have been addressed and dropped; if issues remain then the discussion should either continue or, if they cannot or will not be addressed in reasonable time, the article should be added to the slush pile. Regardless of the outcome, it is useful to copy the nomination discussion to the article's talk page.

Archiving checklist

  • Remove the nomination discussion from this page and paste it to both the archives and to the talk page of the new star article;
  • Add the article to Wikitravel:Star articles (and change the map on that page);
  • Update the article status template on the article from guide to star;
  • Add {{title-icons|star-icon}} to the bottom of the article;
  • Add the article to the top of the list on the Main Page, and remove the oldest star article from the bottom of the list.

Nominations for Star status

For an archive of previous successful nominations please see Wikitravel:Star nominations/Archives.



Figueres

I'm putting this forth as I've put a good deal of effort to get it in line with all the required elements to be a Star article. Just now I've cleaned up the Get Out section to link to only live pages (which meant creating a good number of them) and have added a map. With this, I feel that it is ready for Star status. Primecoordinator 17:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Not yet. I haven't read through the article carefully, but a few problems jump out immediately. First and foremost, the article needs to have a Wikitravel-style map (Wikitravel:How to draw a map/Wikitravel:How to create a map), with all listings marked. If you are up to the task of finishing up the rest of the necessary tasks for star status, my hunch is that a mapmaker will be happy to volunteer.
Other issues that stand out while skimming: 1) contact details missing for many listings; 2) more description is needed for most listings outside the see section; 3) I think it would be desirable to add more eat and drink listings; 4) eat listings should be sorted by price.
I hope this is helpful, rather than discouraging, as it would be wonderful to have our first Spanish star article! At present, though, it seems to be "merely" a fine guide-status article. Surprisingly, we don't really have any star articles to look at that are a comparable size to Figueres, but Hilversum (pop. 80,000) might be a good example to look to, although it clearly is longer than the Figueres article should be. --Peter Talk 13:05, 10 March 2010 (EST)
Actually yes, it is discouraging as the standards for Star articles aren't evenly applied at all, no matter how spelled out it is. And how the hell do you rate something as a 'Not yet' before you've even finished it?!! I find that to be more an attempt to "be first" in reviewing as opposed to actually writing a proper review. As for the map, if I had known there were more specific standards on them, then I wouldn't have wasted my time, thanks... Many aspects of Wikitravel have been generally quite hard to find, so it's no wonder that certain areas are lacking content. Also, there are some Star articles that don't have maps. In regards to breaking down the listings for food and drink, that's rather insane beyond the hotels. This is a town of 40,000 people, not a metropolis like Barcelona with 2 million. Drinks are the same cost everywhere and food varies maybe 10€ between a "hi end" and "low end" restaurant. At this point, if someone else wants to take up the mantle and finish this out, such as the map, that would be great. Otherwise, I've spent more than enough time on it and you can continue to have Spain without any Star articles as Barcelona and Madrid seem to be stuck amidst infighting which it seems this community breeds more of than any sense of cohesion towards a better product. Primecoordinator 19:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm terribly sorry to have come across as discouraging, I really am just trying to give constructive criticism to help build a better product ;) (I couldn't care less about "being first"—I'm usually last.) I say not yet, because without having done a thorough read through, there are a couple obstacles that clearly stand in the way of star status (notably the map). The guidelines/criteria for star status are at Wikitravel:City guide status.
By the way, drink listings do not need price ranges, as you may see from reading other star articles. Also, which star articles do not have maps? They should be demoted if this is true. --Peter Talk 14:27, 10 March 2010 (EST)
Hey Primecoordinator, please do not be discouraged by this. It is a strong guide, but the demands for star status are rightly very high. Once you have an eye for star articles, it is quite easy to have a preliminary read, and to notice things that are missing. That is exactly what Peter did in a constructive way. It is very possible for small, little known destinations to reach star status: see Sheki (pop 65,000) and Nusa Lembongan (pop 8,000), as well as Hilversum, already mentioned. If a map is the biggest issue (I suspect it is), then I can help out by drawing it. What I obviously can't do though is place all the icons etc, so I would need your guidance on that. --Burmesedays 21:55, 10 March 2010 (EST)
Yeah, I can help with that when you pull it together. I've never used this mapping system and would need some guidance for for. Primecoordinator 09:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Support - Have uploaded a more proper map. Can provide the illustrator file if anyone feels like truing anything up. Primecoordinator 21:18, 04 April 2010 (UTC)
Also flesh out a proper History section Primecoordinator 21:20, 04 April 2010 (UTC)
Hmm. What is the base source you used for tracing that map please? There are no free sources I could find with that level of detail, and you have not indicated the source on the map mark up. Also, if you were doing this, it would have been nice tell me and I would not have wasted time. --Burmesedays 21:46, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
I posted a reply on the Talk page over a week ago and assumed that as you hadn't responded you had given up on me. Also, I was hoping to start with what you had created, but you only uploaded the png and not any svg file to work with that I could see. As to the source, it's based on my knowledge of having lived there, an aerial photo my wife took as a teenager (it's her home town), and cross reference with the city tourism guide. Some of this may appear off with the Google Map, which for some reason is incorrect in number of items. And yeah, the Open Street Map is practically non-existent. --Primecoordinator 11:51, 05 April 2010 (UTC)
The SVG is now uploaded (this would not normally be done until the map is finished). Just go ahead and use if it is helpful.

After a far from thorough read, I will try to post an audit list of what I think needs to happen to this article to get it to star standard.

  • Needs an opening paragraph that makes you want to go there.
  • Talk section needs wikilinks to Catalan and Spanish phrasebooks.
  • Get in section needs cities to be wikilinked, and the wikilink to Ryanair should be removed (there is no such article).
  • See section. All formal attractions need opening hours and admission prices. If no admission it should say so.
  • Do section. Is there no theatre or cinema in the town? Or anything else to do?
  • Buy section. Shops need opening hours and phone numbers.
  • Eat section. Restaurants need opening hours, phone numbers and prices.
  • Drink Section. Bars and Wineries need phone numbers and hours.
  • Sleep section. A sleeppricerange table would be good. All hotels need prices.
  • Stay safe section. Add the police station contact details and address.
  • Cope - no section at the moment. Hospital details would be good, plus libraries?
  • Contact - no section at the moment. Internet cafes? Post office? The area dialing code.

That's a start at least on specifics. Other small things, I have just gone ahead and changed. --Burmesedays 10:33, 5 April 2010 (EDT)

Thanks for the map. As to some items that you bring up:
  • Opening paragraph rewritten.
  • Talk linked out.
  • For Get in, not really sure what you're getting at. Is it standard style to re-link cities in Get In? And as for Ryanair, that should just link out to their main site, no?
A lot of the phone numbers just aren't going to happen. I'm not there currently and so it's impossible to look these things up as many of the places have no websites. I've added the ones that were easy to find. And answering the phone in general is a hit and miss thing. Most people just show up. I'll add the Cope and Contact sections when I get a chance as they're easy.
But, here's a large question for the community, in that why bother putting the exact prices for hotels? They change often, vary by season and nearly impossible to keep up to date. Shouldn't we do like most guides do and just keep them in general price ranges? I mean, people have to call or visit their website to make a reservation anyways so as long as they know that they're calling something in the Splurge range, that should be all, no? I ask this as when searching for hotels, even on their own websites the prices are never up to date, so I just ignore them. Seems like a useless, tedious thing to keep up on. --Primecoordinator 11:27, 06 April 2010 (UTC)
I suggest you do what you can with phone numbers. Some of the missing ones are easy - I just managed to find two with a Google search, eg TOT ART and Pastisseria Serra Lacasa. I appreciate that some may be harder. If they exist though a very large effort ought to be made to find them. An email to the local town council might be a good start.--Burmesedays 08:15, 6 April 2010 (EDT)



Russian phrasebook

I'm hoping for some good feedback on this nomination, as it would be our first star phrasebook, and I'm not exactly sure what that will mean yet. It does rather clearly meet the requirements as currently written, but we may find that those should be tightened.

My understanding of Russian as a learned language is pretty strong, and it has also been thoroughly checked by several native speakers, so I am quite confident in its accuracy both in terms of English idioms and Russian translations. I'm more interested to see if others think it is as complete as it needs to be, and whether additional features could be added that we haven't really thought of yet. --Peter Talk 16:04, 13 August 2010 (EDT)

I want to hold off on a vote of support until I see other people weigh in on this, but this looks pretty solid to me. I can't think of any useful expressions you're missing here, but a couple of thoughts do cross my mind - in a couple of consonants in the pronunciation guide, you say something is pronounced like "___ in Spanish". Now, being from a region where a lot of Spanish is spoken, this isn't a problem for me, but I could imagine some English speaker looking at a ñ and thinking "huh?". The other thing is that very last expression on the list (Can I just pay a fine now?) - when you say "bribe", is that legal and/or commonly accepted? Don't want anyone getting in trouble here... PerryPlanet Talk 19:32, 13 August 2010 (EDT)
In virtually every country shaded green on that map, the "Can I pay the fine now?" phrase is unfortunately a pretty common way of interacting with "law enforcement"... particularly when caught peeing outside a bar or trying to cross the freaking border.
I addressed the unclear Spanish ñ bit. --Peter Talk 20:41, 13 August 2010 (EDT)
Based on my experience in Russia, I'd rank "Can I pay the fine now?" behind only "Thank you" and "Sorry/excuse me" on the list of phrases travelers should know. (And I wish I was joking.) Gorilla Jones 20:53, 13 August 2010 (EDT)

Since this isn't getting a ton of input (or any votes), I'll muse a bit on the question of what should a phrasebook ideally include:

  1. More images? The page is awfully black and white, which isn't visually appealing. On the other hand, I can't really think of a meaningful way to illustrate it beyond the map and alphabet key. Also, phrasebooks are likely to be printed from internet cafes, which may make it more important to keep images to a minimum. Anyhow, does anyone have suggestions on possible illustrations?
  2. More introductory prose? On what, exactly?
  3. Are there other categories of phrases not listed that would be helpful?

If given a bit of guidance, I definitely have the knowledge to add anything else that people would like to see. --Peter Talk 21:59, 14 August 2010 (EDT)

Phrasebooks are definitely not my forte. I will say that I'm not clear on the format of the pronunciation guide. For example, it says "e yeh - like yet" "e" is clearly the letter, but what is "yeh"? LtPowers 22:23, 14 August 2010 (EDT)
Yeh is the way the letter is pronounced. That is, the y part is integral to the pronunciation. I changed the example to yesterday, which might be more immediately understandable, I hope! --Peter Talk 17:11, 15 August 2010 (EDT)
Yeah, I figured that out, but the way it's organized is a bit confusing. It's hard to explain, but the way it's written, with <dd> and <dt> tags, implies that "e yeh" is what is being "defined", with "yesterday" the "definition" -- it implies that e and yeh are alternatives. In actual fact, it's "e" that is being "defined" with "yeh" part of the explanation. LtPowers 10:45, 16 August 2010 (EDT)
Questions like "Where are you taking me?" are not accompanied by any possible options. If you ask a question, the most probable answers should be listed in order to understand the response, don't you think? Otherwise, the question is not particularly useful to ask.
Are there any experiences that one would often have in Russia or special topics that Russians are likely to talk about that would make sense to add to the phrasebook? For example, the Swahili phrasebook has a safari section with animals. Although that guide is nowhere near completion, special sections are where it is difficult to evaluate a phrasebook. ChubbyWimbus 17:47, 15 August 2010 (EDT)
I feel this is a little short for something to be a star. I'd like to see more food vocabulary...there's a dozen works now, how about the names of some fruits & vegetables. The authority section could use a few more phrases given it's significance in the region...My papers (visa) are in order, take me to the police station, I will not pay any fine until I speak to your police chief, etc. How do I ask "What time is it?". A few more directions could be added: where is a good (cheap) restaurant, what neighborhood am I in, how far is (name of town), where is the nearest subway station. Some adjectives would be useful: small/big, a lot/a little, interesting, expensive, hot, cold. And like ChubbyWimbus addresses, responses to questions you may be asked are also quite important! As for something interesting to insert, rather than pictures, a colored infobox might do the trick...you can address topics like deciphering addresses, names (Sveta=Svetlana, Sacha=Alexander, etc), how language/city names have changed since the soviet days, or (if there are any) common geographical names (ie. island, new/old, bay, village, upper/lower, etc). Keep in mind that the goal of a star page on WT is to be complete and lacking a desire to use another source. AHeneen 11:51, 19 August 2010 (EDT)
Great feedback. I'll get to work on satisfying these requests. --Peter Talk 12:59, 19 August 2010 (EDT)
Might be nice to have a section for major dialects — if there are any significant variances between how the language is spoken in Moscow compared to, say, Yakutsk, whether that be in terms of vocabulary or accent. It wouldn't have to go into great detail, and could mostly just link to the relevant sections of those articles if they have 'Talk' sections. Gorilla Jones 01:48, 22 August 2010 (EDT)

Never use phrasebooks (I think I should), so difficult to comment--but if you have specific questions, I'd be happy to try answering.

As for paying fine right now, do we really need to emphasize in phrasebook (rather than in a destination guide) that it implies offering a bribe? Asking for an option to pay immediately is absolutely legitimate from a western tourist's point of view, and yes, he should expect a receipt etc. But if/when Russian law enforcement guys start being able to officially accept fines ad hoc, with receipts etc--should we change phrasebook to reflect that? I believe phrasebook should only help to translate. --DenisYurkin 18:10, 2 September 2010 (EDT)

A phrasebook certainly should provide cultural notes on when a phrase is appropriate to use, as it can vary widely. LtPowers 20:18, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
This is a hard one to comment on, but for a start I really think cursive script should be included in the table since I clearly remember having trouble with those; R/г, д/д, и/и, т/т, even though i see it's noted, and it's partially visible in the handwritten script - i don't think it's clear whether this is a difference between handwritten and printed letters, or as is the case, also between printed regular and cursive script. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 07:35, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
Cursive is included to the right in the image table. I figured that it would make things too crowded and overwhelming to include the cursive letters on the main list, but if others disagree, lets change that.
On another note, it's been long enough where it would be legitimate to slush this, but I do intend to make the suggested changes by the end of October, so there may not be a need. --Peter Talk 13:31, 1 October 2010 (EDT)


Walt Disney World

I think it's finally ready. I've put everything I can think of into this guide. It's very long, but there's really not anything left that can be split to the district articles. I would appreciate a very careful review, as I think this could be a model for other similar articles if the community decides it's worthy of the coveted star. LtPowers 21:49, 12 September 2010 (EDT)

  • Note: Please refresh the page before reviewing, as I've made some major changes recently and I don't want you to get caught by the caching bug. LtPowers 21:53, 12 September 2010 (EDT)
  • Support: It looks comprehensive, well written and well formatted. I have never been there so can make no judgement on accuracy. I could not read it all, my brain started to melt after a while, but I found no formatting, spelling or grammatical error in what I could manage. Disney is not my cup of tea, but this looks like a very good guide. Peter (Southwood) Talk 15:54, 17 September 2010 (EDT)
  • Support. [imitating Lumiere from Beauty and the Beast] C'est magnifique. Congratulations on a job well done. Jonathan 784 12:34, 24 September 2010 (EDT)
  • Comment: considering the consternation that has arisen in the past over these articles, I would greatly appreciate further comments. The major question is whether this article is what we're looking for in our coverage of large tourist attractions? LtPowers 13:22, 24 September 2010 (EDT)
I don't see any reason why not. It may happen that some other place needs different treatment, but then we deal with it as it comes. You have set the bar high. Peter (Southwood) Talk 15:43, 24 September 2010 (EDT)
  • Support - Still not a fan of the whole concept, but the article is complete, well written (save a bit commercialized for my taste) and most importantly it seems very complete, so support. —The preceding comment was added by Sertmann (talkcontribs)
I think that commercialism is inherent in the concept. Peter (Southwood) Talk 15:46, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
  • Minor comment: Not too much bold in "Downtown Disney" item in Districts section of the main article? --DenisYurkin 14:53, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
Are you saying that you would prefer more bold, or less bold? LtPowers 17:09, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
Definitely less would be preferred. --DenisYurkin 17:18, 28 September 2010 (EDT)

Photographer's Reef

This dive site article has reached the stage where I think it meets the dive site criteria for Star. The article talk page contains a checklist for dive site article star criteria as used in the previous two star articles on dive sites. I would greatly appreciate any comments on what can be done to improve it, and any minor copyediting would also be good, as I have probably gone way past the blindness to small mistakes level by now. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:02, 11 October 2010 (EDT)

  • Support — I have gone over it, and added a small section on seacatfish, plus removed what typos and other minor mistakes I found. Just a question: Why Boulders Beach and not Pumphouse Gully? Seascapeza 06:07, 15 October 2010 (EDT)
I dont know. Could you be more specific? Peter (Southwood) Talk 06:17, 15 October 2010 (EDT)
  • Support. My only request would be to add a caption to Image:Sea squirt at Photographers Reef DSC05042.JPG, and to possibly copyedit the text in the "Get in" section a bit. "Get in" currently contains some sentence fragments ("Usually considered a boat dive.") and I had to re-read the second and third paragraphs a few times to understand the flow. Perhaps these two paragraphs would read better if they were combined into a single paragraph with some transitional text "... Either of these shore entry areas can be reached by driving through Simon's town...". Otherwise, this looks like yet another great article, and the maps are excellent. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:10, 17 October 2010 (EDT)
Done. There is now a caption on the image and Get in has been changed as you suggested. Thanks for the comments. Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:19, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • Support. This is a relatively small reef, but well covered, and given my experience diving it (from both shore and by boat), there is nothing missing about its description, location, access, marine life, etc. G Zsilavecz 13:44, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay

This is the first Regional Dive Guide to reach a level where I think it can be nominated for Star. So far this has been virtually a single handed effort, including the proposed criteria for star status for this type of travel topic. It is breaking new ground, and needs a legitimacy check by the community, so please all take a look and see if there are any issues that should be resolved at this stage, as this will set the bar for future regional dive guides. There are explanations of my reasoning and choice of criteria on the article discussion page, which are recommended reading. Those who don't feel they can comment on an activity they don't participate in can look at the general Wikitravel criteria for Star, such as language and formatting.

Note that there is one requirement which is not yet satisfied — three dive site sub-articles should be rated as Star. There are two already rated as star: (Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle and Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Partridge Point). The third dive site Star nomination is currently active (see above), and if Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Photographer's Reef makes it, then that requirement will be satisfied. -- Cheers, Peter (Southwood) Talk 03:35, 14 October 2010 (EDT)

Support with the following points to be taken into consideration:

  • under General Topography, perhaps include the name of the 'long ridge of sedimentary rock' that extends through False Bay?
I dont know a name for the ridge as a whole. The shallower area at the south end is known as Steenbras deep. Do you think this information is appropriate in this section, as there is not much detailed information on the other features? I will put it in anyway and see how it looks. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • under Climate of the Western Cape, perhaps shorten sentences somewhat? They are very long which can get in the way of clarity.
Done. Good point. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • last paragraph of Upwellings: what does the water temperature have to do with the visilibity? You say the the upwelling can reduce visibility on the east side of the bay, and then: 'however...' which is when you talk about temperature. It doesn't make sense.
I have rewritten this section to make it clearer. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • do you think you should explain what is considered the Atlantic side of the peninsula vs False Bay? Because strictly speaking it's all in the Atlantic.
I have added a short paragraph in the general topography section. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • I have changed the last paragraph of 'Water temperature' assuming that you meant that the bottom temperature in summer in the bay is colder than it is in winter, but this may have been a too-herois assumption. Is this correct? The bottom is actually colder in the summer?
According to my reference this is often the case. It is quite old and does not explain the cause. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • then, under 'Habitats' I found this sentence: For many marine organisms the substrate is another type of marine organism, and it is common for several layers to co-exist

... can you clarify?

I have tried. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • under sandy substrates, do you need to define sessile organisms? Or provide a link?
I dont know. WT tries to minimise external links, but I am not keen to put too many definitions in the text. Do you think that the term is too unfamiliar, and that it will make much difference? Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • under 'Respect' last paragraph of the diving rocky reefs sections -- perhaps, accurate and enjoyable though it is, it should be left out as not being encyclopaedic?
Wikitravel is not an encyclopedia. I do not have to use NPOV, only to try to be fair. Do you think the statement is unfair or that the information is not useful to the traveller's understanding of the region? Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • under 'Diving on wrecks in South Africa', it seems to me you need a section detailing how mnay wrecks there are around Cape Town rather than using a general SA overview -- perhaps this section should be a link to another article on wrecks in South Africa, while the Diving on wrecks in Cape Town has more detailed information?
I will look into this. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
The general informatiuon is also in Diving in South Africa#Diving on Wrecks in South Africa, so I have deleted it from Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay and put in a more local explanation. I dont know if it is what you had in mind, so please take a look and let me know. Feel free to improve it. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) Talk 05:42, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
  • artefacts or artifacts? You use both.
I have changed what I could find to artifacts. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • Under get help I would make 'in case of emergency' and 'find out' bigger fonts.. they are rather overwhelmed by the text as they are.
The only way I know of doing this is to use sub headings, which I have done. Yo are right, it does look better. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • n Cruise Sub Aqua under dive packages: are they the only operator who provides dive packages? Does this, perhaps, need expanding?
Not sure that dive packages is actually something we want, but also not sure exactly what they mean. This listing was originally posted by Cruise Sub Aqua. Any opinions? Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • spelling of Sub-Atlandi/ean Diving
Their website uses Sub-Atlandian, so will go with that. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • no operators listed under shark cage diving?
Good point, I will try to look them up. The problem is to try to get the legal ones. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
3 operators listed. It is not easy to find legitimate local operators as just about all the Gansbaai operators and booking agents list themselves as in Cape Town.

If you know of others, please give details. Peter (Southwood) Talk 05:42, 19 October 2010 (EDT)

  • should there be a subsection on the Scubapro Dive festival?
It didnt happen last year. so not too sure. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
  • then under 'See':
  • is it an idea to put the max'average depth of all sites in the thumbnails?
Yes, possibly even a good one. I will put them in over the next few days. Quite a big job. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Bigger job than it looked. Very tedious, but I think it will be worth it in the end. Take a look and see if the formatting looks right. That is the easy part to change, the slow part is waiting for each site to open to get the data. However I am doing a few other improvements at the same time. Peter (Southwood) Talk 07:09, 19 October 2010 (EDT)

Okay, that's as far as I have been able to get for this session, will continue from Camps Bay in due course. Seascapeza 10:49, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

Thanks, several good points. Should keep me busy for a few hours. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Make that days. Peter (Southwood) Talk 07:09, 19 October 2010 (EDT)

Okay, so my next lots of edits and views follow:
Support I have continued editing the article and with respect to the See section, have only minor changes to make in general. However, there are a couple of consistency issues which apply to the article overall:

  • Capitalization: I have altered and adapted in ways that seem to fit but in some respects have not been sure how to accomplish your aim. Fish Hoek Reef is mentioned, and then Fish Hoek reef. I changed Rockland point since Millers and Oatlands were both capitalised, but there should be consistency here.
  • Simon's Town, Miller's point, Simon's Bay etc. Is this accustomed usage? Because to me, Millers Point and Simonstown are the accepted usage. I have corrected one instance of Simons Town, since the bulk of the rest of the artucle seems to stick with Simon's Town, but it'd be worth making a decision on which form you wish to go with.
  • directions and winds: south-east or south east or South East? Or South east? All variants are present.
  • dates, specifically of wrecks. 18th June or 18 June or June 18? All are present.

Then, specifically, the description of Castle Rocks is a repeat of the Miller's Point description. Surely that should be changed?

Also, under offshore False Bay reefs, there is reference to Table Mountain sandstone and Cape Peninsula pluton -- should these be in italics? But, overall, wow. Great intro and overview.

Seascapeza 05:26, 21 October 2010 (EDT)

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