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Difference between revisions of "User talk:MustSee"

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== Welcome ==
 
== Welcome ==
 
[[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 18:34, 11 October 2010 (EDT)Hi! Please [[don't tout]] and see [[welcome, business owners]]! [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 09:34, 4 June 2010 (EDT)
 
:Hi! You violation of our policies at [[Margarita Island]] is so obvious that i blacklisted your business. Stop it! [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 11:32, 6 June 2010 (EDT)
 
 
can you tell me how I "violation of our policies?"<small>—The [[Wikitravel:Using_talk_pages#Talk_page_formatting|preceding]] comment was added by [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] ([[User_talk:MustSee|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MustSee|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small>
 
 
:Hi! If you had a closer look at the above mentioned policies plus [[welcome, business owners]], [[style]], [[tone]] and '''especially''' [[Wikitravel:Edit war|edit warring]] your company wouldn't be on the blacklist. [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 10:21, 7 June 2010 (EDT)
 
 
Jan, can you please explain how the following is in violation of the policies? I have read all of the links and I need your help to get it correct. Thanks 
 
"A reputable car rental company that help visitors who are Spanish challenged is Gringo Rent a Car."
 
 
:Hi! I suggest hat you use our [[Wikitravel:Activity_listing]] template for the format and that you write something like "Gringo RaC is in business since xyz years and has xyz cars/bikes. The service team is able to serve tourists in Spanish, English and other." I would avoid the word reputable as is can be easily changelled by users. [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 03:03, 12 June 2010 (EDT)
 
 
Hi Jan, does this violate any rules?
 
"Gringo Rent A Car (link to company web site) has been in business since 2006, serving the airport as well as all other areas on Margarita Island and has several vehicle model selections of new or late model cars available. The customer service team is available to serve tourists in Spanish, English and French. The contracts are in Spanish, English or French so the customer understands what they are signing."
 
I will wait for your reply before posting, THANKS
 
: Please use our activity template
 
<nowiki>* <do name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" hours="" price="" url=""></do></nowiki>
 
 
and if you want your url delisted from the blacklist then state [[Wikitravel_talk:Local_spam_blacklist#gringorent-a-car_dot_com|here]] that you will from now on follow our rules.[[User:Jc8136|jan]] 11:36, 13 June 2010 (EDT)
 
 
::One technical point: Please sign all your entries with the ''Sign your name:'' <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> so it is easier to see the start and end of your comments. Thank you! MustSee
 
 
Hi Jan. I am not sure I understand what is meant by the following.
 
" * <do name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" hours="" price="" url=""></do> " Can you please explain. MustSee
 
:Hi! Below the '''Save page''' button you see the <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> in blue ink, if you click on them they will appear in the edit box. After you have saved the page the <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> convert in you signature and everybody can click on it on come to your userpage. [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 10:01, 14 June 2010 (EDT)
 
 
 
Thanks Jan. I think I got it now. Would this be ok?
 
" * <do name="GRC" alt="" address="PMV Airport"
 
directions="Mobil servicing all points on Margarita Island" phone="+58 416 698 4323" email=reservations@GRC  hours=" 7:00 - 23:00"
 
price="$30.00 - $60.00 per day" www.GRC.com="  "There are several vehicle model selections of new or late model cars available. The customer service team is available to serve tourists in Spanish, English and French. The contracts are in Spanish, English or French so the customer understands what they are signing></do> "
 
 
:Fine for me. I will take off GRC from the blacklist in the next ten minutes and you are free to add it in the article if you feel so. [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 08:44, 16 June 2010 (EDT)
 
Hi Jan, I think I need some help getting this right. [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 08:44, 16 June 2010 (EDT)
 
:Hi! I sorted out the error. You deleted <nowiki>></nowiki> from the listing template that is essentiell. It's now repaired on all pages. [[User:Jc8136|jan]] 08:45, 16 June 2010 (EDT)
 
 
Hi Jan, your help is needed with Margarita Island
 
 
== Margarita Island Medical clinics ==
 
 
[[User:MustSee|MustSee]] I have left a note on the [[Margarita Island|Talk:Margarita Island]] page as you appear to have some local knowledge, maybe you would like to assist with developing the article by checking the phone number formatting for the medical clinics and confirming that the area codes and locality descriptions are correct. It strikes me the addresses/localities could do with a bit more detail and confirmation that the current contact details in the article are correct. Thanks if you can assist. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 00:51, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
Hi Felix, the name of the location is the address. There are few actual street numbers here. I will confirm the phone numbers as well as trying to add some other local establishments. Bear with me, computers are not my thing. Thanks [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 07:45, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:Hi again [[User:MustSee|MustSee]], that would be great, take your time and if in doubt try it out or experiment with it on the articles discussion page first. I had a suspicion street numbers were not a big thing there. There must be lots of great things for travellers to experience in Margarita so it would be good to see some more info in the article if you interested in contributing. Thanks [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:57, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
==Editing the Margarita article==
 
 
::Hey Felix. I posted some things on the discussion page. I hope that helps because I cannot do the formatting. Computer dummy here. Cheers, [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 20:03, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:::Hi [[User:MustSee|MustSee]], the WT formatting thing will seem a bit overwhelming at first but just take it slowly. It is actually a lot easier than it may appear at first. There is no big rush and you are under no pressure. If it looks as though you are trying but struggling a bit then others will often help. Sometimes they can be a bit gruff, other times they will give some more explanation. I have left some quite detailed notes and examples on the Margarita article discussion page along with some examples and explanations. Have a look at it and have a go at editing one or two of the listings you have proposed.
 
 
:::Please do not be disheartened or intimidated by this rather Wikitravel (WT) formulaic approach. It will soon pass and you will be able to edit with plenty of confidence. I have a feeling it is something that interests you and for a new editor you have already done a considerable amount of work on the Margarita [[Talk:Margarita Island|articles (Talk) page]]. Some people never pass the threshold and do no more than just update a phone number or two.  You seem to be interested in both the article and in developing content so just slowly work through your proposed content that is already on the discussion page and by the time you have finished doing those entries I am quite sure you will be sailing through it. I notice that another editor [[Dguillaime]][[User_talk:Dguillaime|(Talk)]] assisted you a little with some of the content you put on the discussion page so obviously they have also been watching your progress and are also trying to give some assistance. That editor has a lot of experience at WT and is an ''Administrator'' so if they change something that you do or give you some advice I think you can assume that it is in good faith and is being done to assist you. The other ''WT Administrator'' that was trying to assist was Jan but they are off on holiday at the moment, that is partly why I stepped in. Certainly if you put something into the article and either [[User_talk:Jc8136|Jan]] at [[User_talk:Jc8136|Jc8136]] [[User_talk:Jc8136|(Talk)]] or [[Dguillaime]] [[User_talk:Dguillaime|(Talk)]] revert it do not feel disappointed or offended in any way just try and work out why they did it. If the reason is not apparent then just ask them in a new note at the bottom of the article discussion page and I am sure you will get an appropriate response from them. In looking through edit histories of both the article and the discussion page I can see that [[Dguillaime]] [[User_talk:Dguillaime|(Talk)]] undid several or your previous edits and those of others as they were not appropriate to the format of WT. They clearly also want to assist you so just keep at it. Please understand that you really seem to be learning very quickly so you may as well keep at it. I will try and drop by from time to time and once you have done a few entries either myself, Jan or Dguillaime will move them across to the article for you or check over you doing it yourself. Keep up the good work and welcome to the Wikitravel community of editors. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 01:20, 20 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
::::Hey Felix, "a bit overwhelming"? HA!!! For a computer dummy it's a nightmare!! I have wanted to share my knowledge about the island with others but unfortunately have been unable to.
 
 
::::Also much of what is found on the web about Margarita is obsolete. For instance the Hilton is no longer in existence. Many of the restaurants no longer exist, Señor Frog for example went belly up last year. Taxi's are another animal altogether. Anyone can put a taxi sign in their window and call them selves a taxi company. There are many instances of taxi drivers robbing tourists. Tourists should understand that only taxi's with yellow license plates are licensed by the government. Actually there are only a handful of companies that I would use to transport my Mother. The legit compamies serve all parts of the island.
 
::::Telephone numbers here are another issue. If a number is listed with a "0" as the first number then it will not be accessible internationally. I will only add things that I know are current. I came to Margarita as a tourist years ago. Inaccurate listings are worse then no listings, IMO. Thanks for the kind words, I just wish I had more computer smarts!! [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 07:47, 20 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
Hi again [MustSee]. I guess it may feel pretty hobbled at your end but from here all I can see is positive progress. All your edits and the listing development you have been working are moving ahead well. It seems to me as though your are catching on to the editing formula at a very strong pace. Don't worry, all this arcane markup is bound to confuse most people so don't be too hard on yourself. If you really are a computer dummy I doubt you will be for much longer. I enjoyed your comments above and I must admit I had a suspicion that a lot of the info in the article was either out of date or just dead in the water. Most of the more recent information I have been able to dig up looked to be out of date by 5 yrs + at a minimum and it may have been borrowing from even earlier times.
 
 
I was suspicious about the Hilton and also had a feeling the the Frog had lost his legs to a french kitchen. You are most certainly correct about ''Inaccurate listings are worse then no listings'', I cannot agree more. Indeed it was coming across articles that were horrendously out of date and inaccurate that got me going here on WT in the first instance. It is a pity you had such a lumpy start off. I recall when I started editing here it was a dreadful first beginning. I was using a public wifi point IP and a nearby idiot was aware that I was editing an article as he had looked over my shoulder at what I was doing. He went on line himself, on the same IP, and started dumping big lumps of text all over the place, he obviously thought is was a good laugh. Of course it looked to me as though things were just moving about on their own and it made a shocking mess of my focus and concentration. Eventually I realised there was something seriously amiss and registered with a user name but for some reason I kept on getting cookie corruptions and had to go back to the IP again. He was then able to keep up his antics and mess up my edits with his own. I was probably lucky the IP was not blocked after that mess occurred. I was seeing things go from bad to worse and other editors started doing full reverts and he would reinstate or move everything across to another article. It was both confusing and maddening. I worked out what he had been doing later and of course he thought it was a huge joke. Fortunately he was only around for a few weeks and moved on. It was in his character to be disruptive and destructive and indeed his karma caught up with him not much later.
 
 
*Your comments on the taxi cabs are useful and constructive. Pretty standard 3rd world taxi games I guess. I read today about a Sydney Australia taxi driver who caused the death of one of his passengers by driving off after fighting with the passenger when he was partially alighted. It allowed me to recall a driver there in Sydney abusing me and taking off with my hand still in the door handle, he dragged me for 10 metres before stopping, I nearly lost my hand and it is still sore sometimes. It was not the only time I had problems with cab drivers in that city, they are the worst and most dangerous drivers on the road and a lot of them are full time cheats as well. It is certainly not a problem experienced only on tropical islands.  You might have noticed I put in a mention of the yellow plates in the article but I did not know to clarify that they were the ''only'' ones that are officially registered. Is there one or even two decent companies that are grandmother worthy? LOL I think that is an excellent filter.
 
*I suggest that when you have the time that you write DELETE and a brief reason next to any taxi entry on the Talk page that you are aware is less than straight up. Don't forget to sign <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> after each of these.
 
Then we can compile a hopefully shorter and succinct list. Is it true that the white coloured yellow plated cabs are better, I imagine there might be an assortment of generically white cabs of mixed reputations.
 
 
Your restaurant/accom listings are looking really good. I must let you know there is a standard WT time format, ie 8:00am is described as 8AM (12 hr clock and always with the CAPS and no :00).  8:30am would be written as 8:30AM. Similarly USD$4.00 is written as US$4, USD$4.50 as US$4.50. Don't worry too much about that though, if you make a mistake someone will probably 'correct' it for you as there is far too much to take on board in one gulp. I often forget and use am instead of AM and I know already. There is a style guide page that you can look over and I think you are probably at an advanced enough level now that it would be very useful for you to have a look at it.
 
Don't worry you are doing a great job. I will look over it again tomorrow as long as I have the time but don't forget there is no rush. I always like to keep at it so I maintain my concentration but don't forget to give your head a rest from it.
 
I will look over your edits on the Talk page and fix up a couple of the formatting problems so you can see what changes. For more information on style guides, see the [[Wikitravel:Manual of style|Wikitravel:Manual of style]] article. On that page you will find links to further pages with more detail, for example [[Wikitravel:Restaurant listings|a style guide for restaurant listings]]. I hope this can help. Keep up the good work. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 11:57, 20 October 2010 (EDT)
 
OK I pulled out the Hilton listing and also did a little work on your restaurant listings to tidy up a couple of very small. One of them seems to be closing at *PM, is that correct, seems a bit early for that part of the world. I think we should put those into the article tomorrow or when ever you are ready. I will put them in if when you wish or you go ahead and do it yourself. I cannot see any reason for anyone to object to them as they are at the moment, maybe double check that closing time though. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 13:18, 20 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
::Hi Felix, by gosh I think I am getting the hang of this. Yes finding up to date info about Margarita Island can be a chore. Most of what I post is from first hand experience. It's tough getting accurate phone numbers here as well. We don't have a current "yellow pages" like in the states. A few of the listings I will be updating because they have new phone numbers and I will have to wait until the next time I am there. Woody's is also gone so I guess it needs to be removed. I got a good chuckle out of your story about when you first started posting.
 
::May I suggest that you remove all taxi cabs and wait until first hand experience can be reported. It could be a delicate topic for me to delete those. By just posting names and phone numbers that may have been found online without knowing their history may not not a good idea, IMO. Also there are only a hand full of properly licensed rental car companies here. Some that are now listed on WT are not "tourist friendly" and most are not properly licensed. I understand a good many people think a franchised company is 100% honest and legit but we are in a third world country. There may well be a reason they never attempted to post themselves on WT. If you need to know more please feel free to email me.
 
::I hope I get the hang of all the rules here. I will read the links posted. I noticed that my spelling was off on a few posts. English is not my first language, please feel free to correct any errors. Yes the closing times are correct. Locals know what is a safe time to operate their business until. I will keep plugging along here and hopefully I can help build this site. Thanks to all for the help, [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 14:13, 20 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:::[[User:MustSee|MustSee]]It is a pleasure to try and assist. I have looked over your edits and done some very minor tidy ups to some spelling, minor typos, a couple of very minor sentence adjustments and similar including a few of my own from my edits on the article and the content coming across from the Talk page. Probably missed one or two but they will get flushed out sometime in the future. I think you have made not only a huge improvement to the article but also leapt forward in some huge leaps in understanding editing a WT article. It is a now a very different article to the one that existed a couple of days ago. BTY I think you are quite correct about the taxis. Lets leave them there for a little while and see if anyone else has been watching the article and might step in now with some local taxi knowledge. Otherwise I think we should trim it down to a minimum of just the caution on the plates and a general  short preamble on the taxis being a bit feral. Keep up the good work and give yourself a well earned rest. I hope you will keep on with an interest in WT and certainly do keep on improving the article. If you get a bit of track someone will no doubt let you know about it. If you think something is amiss just try and contact one of the administrators who helped you before or leave me a not on my talk page. I will have the article on my watchlist so I will see if there are any edits occurring and will probably drop by from time to time to have a look over them. Seriously good work. Cheers from [[User:Felix505|felix]] 18:58, 20 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
[[User:MustSee|MustSee]] I hope you don't mind but for clarity but I have broken things down into different sections below so things are not too confusing, I copied your signature onto the bits I have cut up so it is clear who wrote them and when. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:18, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
==Editing of Margarita taxis and rental car sub-sections==
 
 
Hey Felix, it's been great to finely learn how this works. A couple of years ago someone posted GRC and I have followed WT. While not knowing the rules or features available, I was unable to do more then undo a deletion of the information that was posted. Thanks for showing me the ropes, correcting my mistakes and taking the time to build WT Margarita Island. As you see getting accurate and current information online is not an easy task. I will be adding things on a regular basis now.[[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 11:42, 21 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
====Taxis====
 
 
As far as the Taxi issue is concerned. I would suggest going back to your original taxi list and wait for additional input. Without putting my foot in my mouth locally, I can say that the list as it is, contains companies that I wouldn't even put my Mother in law in! I would much rather see an error on the side of caution. If further clarity is needed please email me. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 11:42, 21 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:I agree completely with your comments and I notice that no one has leapt in and started contributing to the taxi listing.  So accordingly I have moved the whole list across to the Talk [[Talk:Margarita_Island|page]] to be dealt with there leaving a slightly expanded preamble on the article page. I agree we should only be listing licensed operators in the article and in absence of any information to clarify the issue then that is probably the best course of action. The local licensing authority or taxi operators association surely has a list of licensed operators. Maybe we should try and secure a copy and then apply the ''grandmother going shopping'' filter to them. If you are aware of any of them being legitimate licensed operations then move those back into the article. Otherwise we will just have to hope that over time that section gets some input. You are entirely correct, it is better to list nothing than to list something that may be misleading. The important issue of the yellow plate indicating an official taxi is a most useful addition to the article and you may have noticed I put it in the preamble and that remains in the article. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:18, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
I can get a list from the government of licensed companies. Maybe the oldest or the biggest few would suffice? In reality though who is going to call internationally to get a taxi cab? We have not touched on local calling here. Some companies' owners have their own personal cell phone on the taxi cabs to call in case of a rude or unscrupulous driver. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 18:15, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:Yes maybe the oldest/biggest as long as they are normally reasonably reputable. The list should probably be no more than 3-5. If someone really needs to call one they then have sufficient basic contact details. Generally  the numbers are expressed with the +code for continuity. Also if using a cell phone on roam it is best to put it the international and area code when making a call as in some regions you can get overlapping signals from different countries networks.[[User:Felix505|felix]] 19:52, 23 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
::I will get the list early this week and sort a few out. I need to work on a section for making local calls here. It can get quite expensive using an international cell phone. A traveler can purchase a SIM card for local pre paid calls quit reasonably priced. The problem is trying to call local numbers the way they are listed will not work. I'll work on the condensed version of how the phone system is here this week. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 10:45, 24 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
====Rental cars====
 
I have an issue with some the car rental companies listed. Not as far as competition but for common sense reasons. For many "companies", all that is listed is a local phone number, maybe an anonymous email account or a claimed office. While not only frustrating the tourist, it could also be down right dangerous for them. Pre-paid cell phones are common place here and virtually untraceable. At least those with an actual web site are traceable, if nothing else. IMO posting information found on the web with no way to verify the accuracy and legitimacy of that information, in a third world country, should be questioned. Sometime travelers are just too trusting. Again an error on the side of caution may be wise, I have knowledge of some of the day to day things that happen here. Again email me if clarity is needed. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 11:42, 21 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:WT has some pretty clear guidelines and policies regarding the listing of the principal business only, and listing it only once. For example if the business operates using a lot of 'stringers' or agents they would not be listed separately. The business also generally needs to have a physical address and presence. If a district/city region has a sub-branch it would only be listed again in the most basic manner in a downstream article such as a tel number and address with a redirect to [[User:MustSee|main article]] for further details. For further example Hertz Margarita apparently has 6 locations on Margarita. We could list their head office and state that they have 6 branches including one at the airport or we could just list the one that is probably more useful to travellers. As WT is traveller focused rather than being a ''directory'' I listed the Airport location and ''mentioned'' there were 6 locations without listing them. The reader can then go find them if they are sufficiently motivated to do so knowing at least that there is something to look for. The Hertz web address or a centralised national call number should be sufficient information for WT to provide in that regard.
 
 
:I have my own suspicions many of the ''apparent'' rent-a-car operations in [[Margarita#Get around|Margarita]] may be a bit bogus and are either overstating their operations or are sock puppet proxies, aggregators or ''resellers''. It is hard to tell, especially from my distance and certainly difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff from where I am. You are better qualified in this area but if you have a conflict of interest you must tread carefully. There are a few things you can look into that may assist in knowing how to best deal with this sort of matter whilst keeping within WT guidelines. Of course this sort of issue is quite common and not at all unique to Margarita.
 
 
:As to operations that only list a handfone/cellphone number I think we need to keep a bit of flexibility as many small businesses now operate from cell numbers. In some countries the cell network is either more accessible due to landline availability shortages or service quality issues. Also with a business like car rentals it means the main number can ''go home'' or out on the road on an after hours delivery with an owner or employee without the uncertainty of a diversion system and it's attendant costs. We must also not exclude new start ups who may just choose not to invest in a landline when they are expecting to need to move due to growth or tenancy issues. Your point about having a website is valid but of course some business operators may not understand how to do this or be able to afford the web design and update requirements. Indeed that is possibly why some operators hand over that side of thing to an agent then creating a bit of a problem if it then appears that the online presence is an agency with out a physical presence. Some latitude is required. I am often surprised to see quite established and substantial business using yahoo.com mail accounts. However when you consider the reliability of some domain name and email servers I guess it is understandable. Also the business does not have to hire an IT person to manage the account and spam filters with sufficient skill that the business is not closed down by a malicious competitor or frustrated teenager ''flooding'' their email account and killing their business.
 
 
:However if the business has a hand painted sign and 5 cars parked in their front yard or the forecourt of a gas station and runs the whole thing from a note book in their back pocket and a cellphone there is no reason to think they are not just as honest or maybe more so than an office of one of the international car rental companies. Some 3rd world environments often have their own roughly hewn checks and balances, sometimes they are effective, sometimes not. If the operator is complying with the law and behaving in a reputable and responsible manner then personally I think they have as much right to appear in a WT article as anyone else. As far as I know the WT guidelines pretty much support that line of thinking.
 
 
::If you feel sufficiently motivated you could try tackling the list on the talk page list and do something like put some objective notes against any stand outs, reputable or disreputable. Really the article just needs to list a few, it cannot and should not be a directory of all the providers, just do it in a neutral and objective way...
 
:*this operator is a sole agent/franchise of company ''XYZ Car Rentals'' but has no physical presence. (It would be difficult for a legitimate operator not to have a physical presence somewhere as they have to park the cars, that should clean out anyone renting out their uncles 1885 Buick Century when he is away on business in Caracas).
 
:*this operator is really an aggregator and resells the vehicles and services of several rental operators
 
:*this operator is a second/third tier reseller/spruikier/pitchman who books cars with an other operator and resells them
 
:*this operator is unlicensed (ensure they have no business relationship giving them entitlement to trade using someone else's license)
 
:*this operator is illegal/criminal (and state why-I think actually being convicted of something directly related to the car rental activity is probably a minimum threshold to make that sort of claim or at least a very convincing write up in a very credible media publication and then cited on the Talk page.
 
 
:I think if you do this on the Talk page it should not be too controversial and hopefully some other input might occur to help build some consensus. Don't worry about blow through users of IP addresses too much, they often say a lot and then disappear and unless a decent edit history is already established they are not going to be given much credence if it is fairly clear they are just making trouble. I noticed that some of the articles in that region are a little light on in the content. If you are interested and feel motivated then help build the region around and associated with Margarita and points in between, it seems like Margarita is a bit of a focal point for Venezuelan tourism activities so it would possibly help things a long a bit.
 
 
:Even if you are the owner biggest car rental company in Venezuela as long as you are being impartial, objective and honest then your opinion is as valid as anyone else, maybe even more so.  Just make sure use moderation, and definitely keep it off the main article as it is only for the purposes of coming to a consensus as to what is appropriate to list or not. [[Wikitravel:Avoid_negative_reviews|This article]] discusses how to deal with a provider or business that is a bit suspect or disappointing. In brief the WT guideline is ''just don't list it'' but the article elaborates on it quite well. It is worth a read. It also bears well upon your thoughts on the issue of listing or not listing taxi operators and how to deal with something that may encroach on a travellers safety or well being. WT strives not to denigrate but also not to whitewash. Of course ensure you put the <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> there after any notation you put to a taxi, rental car provider or any other discussion point.
 
 
Basically just keep up the good work, your ideas for improving the article are all good and your work so far has clearly led to much improvement already.[[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:18, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:You stated "The business also generally needs to have a physical address and presence" yet there are companies now listed without a physical address. GRC address is Av Mario Oliveros, El Yaque Paradise Hotel, PB Level, Play El Yaque, BTW.  There is also a GRC Kiosk at PMV airport. I work mainly in El Yaque office.
 
:I can secure a list from the Government of properly licensed companies and indicate the ones that are listed that are not properly licensed. "Ensure they have no business relationship giving them entitlement to trade using someone else's license", here if "Jackson car rental" is not properly licensed by the government, they cannot use someone else's license to rent cars under that name. I will tread lightly because of my employment. Actually the owner of GRC loves all the other companies listed, "they will get such a run a round with the non companies that after a few, they will come running to us". I was asked to add more companies to the list.  [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 18:18, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
::Yes just tread lightly, remember you have as might right to an opinion as another editor, just be really careful to be extra balanced and objective if editing in an area where there may be an obvious potential conflict of interest. If a car rental operation is obviously disreputable or operating illegally them I would just go ahead and mark it as so on the talk page. With GRC best list which ever office is more likely to be of benefit to the traveller. I you think that is the airport kiosk then list that as then it indicates that the company has an airport presence. It does not matter which one is the ''main'' office, at WT we are more interested in listing the one that best serves the [[Wikitravel:The traveller comes first|interests of the traveller]]. Your call on which one is listed as which ever is in the best interests of the traveller is no doubt also in the best interests of GRC.  I am not sure which as I am not familiar with the situation there. If the kiosk is only occasionally staffed then maybe not as no one wants people going to the airport to rent a car from GRC and finding there is no one there. If you want to change it and wish me to do it just let me know what you want the changes to say and I will do it. Maybe that way there will be no one leaping upon edit. I think that might have stopped now though. In regard to listing companies that are not licensed, if the law there requires them to be licensed to operate a rental car business then they have to be licensed to lit on WT. Anyone who is not should be immediately removed from the list. I will do that if you wish but you must state which ones and be VERY sure that they are unlicensed. The Govt list is the way to go I think and then if anyone disputes it you can simply refer to the list.BTY do M&M tours have an office and is it at ''Av Santiago Marino, edif.Blue Sky Piso1, Local1-2 Polamar''?. <br>
 
I have added the address details to GRC and a mention of a Kiosk at the airport. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 19:52, 23 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
: Wow I see I have a typo in the address. It's Playa El Yaque for GRC (playa=beach). I will work at getting the list for rental car licenses as well, however, if those listed without an address were removed the list would be fairly complete. I'll let you make the call there. The ones with addresses that are listed are genuine companies. M&M is on Av Santiago Marino the last I knew. BTW, Logan generally has cars for rent for their customers who's cars are being repaired. They are a full service Renault dealer more then a car rental agency. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 10:48, 24 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
::If there is anything not correct in the GRC address then you go ahead and correct it. There is no problem at all with you doing that. The current listing is showing ''Playa El Yaque'' so I hope is OK.
 
So is it just that I have not ''found'' addresses for them or is a problem that they do not ''have'' addresses. If so they have to come out. Your list is a good idea otherwise someone might accuse you of mischief. I will take them out for now but if an address is found we must ensure that we put them back in. Lets try and get the Taxi and Rental car thing dealt with asap so you can juust concentrate on building the article. BTY, good work. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 05:05, 25 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:::Perfect, the list now has legitimate companies. There are still some phone number issues, remember it's country code (58) area code ( ie 295 ) then 7 digit phone number ( 123 1234). I will still hunt down the list so that I will have that for back up. A few suggested additions to the car rental  pre-amble. "when reserving a vehicle, if the companies web site does not specifically indicate, ask if insurance is included in the rate. Also ask if there are any additional fee's or charges that are mandatory such as airport concessionary fee, tourist tax, airport tax, car wash fee, additional drivers fee ect. Be sure to ask if the rate you are quoted is the amount you are going to be charged".
 
::::FYI the above "taxes and fee's" can easily drive the price quoted up an additional 50% or more. Another tactic is that the traveler is quoted a low ball figure, then when they arrive there are no cars available in that price class. It's something done globally, not just in Margarita. It is difficult for the foreign traveler here if they are not fluent in Spanish. When a problem arises it is blamed on the language barrier and the Spanish contract is pointed to. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 11:02, 25 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:::::What you say is quite correct in regard to the car rental price issues and there have been crack downs in some countries. I recall something happening recently in Australia in this regard. Same issues, understated charges with a low advertised basic price stripped of a multitude of fees levies and assorted charges that end up doubling the price. I think the government there may have recently passed some legislation mandating fuller disclosure of the ''true'' price so that businesses could not engage in what is essentially just misleading advertising. They had to do a similar thing with the airlines advertising the base price stripped of ''other'' charges. As it is such a perennial issue it should really be dealt with in the Venezuela national article with a note such as ...see the main [[Venezuela#Get around|article]] for further information on renting a car in Venezuela. Yes the problem must be quite frustrating there as people often follow the lowest price then get a bit of a surprise. I suggest you write something appropriate first and then do an appropriate edit on the Venezuela national article with an [[Venezuela#Get around|article]] link as I suggested above. Keep it brief and put a very brief signed note on the (Venezuela) article's Talk page to explain why you have done the edit.  Certainly I agree with you that this is an important thing to clarify for people and certainly in the travellers best interest. This is when having a User page that describes who you are is good. It should then be understood by other editors that it is an impartial and 'authoritative' edit. Do not mention anything to do with Margarita in the Rental car section as of course Margarita has it's own article to deal with that. You may want to look over the Venezuela article and look at the links to Margarita to see if they are correct. Let me know if I can assist. Your improvements to the article are looking good. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 23:06, 26 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
 
Felix, it appears a blow through user left a comment, just making trouble and was given so much credence that all 8 of the rental car companies were removed quoting "remove car rental list per Wikitravel:External links#What not to link to)". Correct me if I am wrong, but does that require that 10 or more operators for "avoidance"? To obliterate all the work that went into getting things portrayed accurately due to a trouble maker seems unwiki like IMO. Is there any way to restore the work that was done?
 
Also I spent several days getting pushed off to different departments trying to obtain those lists but was unsuccessful. Ahhhhh third world country's. It has been a bit since I have posted here, I hope I get this right. Thanks  [[User:MustSee|MustSee]]
 
 
====Apartments and Condos====
 
As you may be editing or adding some more accommodation listings you had better have a read of this [[Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings#Apartment_listings|article]] and [[Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings#Avoid listing nearest attractions|this]].[[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:18, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
 
:I'll take a look at those before editing or adding. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 18:19, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:: The "nearby attractions" is going to be tough here in Margarita. Since rarely are formal addresses used, good luck finding a street sign on secondary streets, most of the time we reference a nearby landmark. Take "Horseback riding tours on the north end of Isla Margarita near Playa El Agua" for example. We use the nearby attractions as a point of reference. I hope that doesn't cause any problems. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 12:07, 24 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
====Declaring business interests====
 
If you are in a situation where you may have some business interests in Margarita then you should not feel that you are excluded from contributing to WT or the Margarita article.<br>Indeed as far as I understand it is actually encouraged. All that is required is to be [[Wikitravel:Don't tout#Guidelines|transparent]] about it. Indeed you can certainly still edit at will anywhere else other than articles that may directly or indirectly relate to your business.<br>If editing on your ''home'' article you just need to be extra careful to edit very objectively, in a neutral manner and not to [[Wikitravel:Don't tout|tout]] or promote your own business in any way in the article that covers the region or regions in which you have commercial interests. WT does not appear to view a description of someone's business in a basic listing as being at all controversial, in fact they encourage it.  Also be very careful not to edit anything to do with your competitors or that may skew the article toward any commercial operation that you are involved in. Enthusiastically developing an article on Margarita would of course benefit a business you might have there, that is not a problem though. Indeed off the area of rental transportation you should be able to write with whatever flair and style that suits. As long as you are always objective and write in a balanced manner keeping the interests of the traveller foremost then everything should be fine. By example if you ran a Taxi company on Margarita and edited or added a hotel listing stating in the hotel's details that you can book taxis from company ''xyz'' then that may be rather questionable. However if  you wrote that the hotel would book taxis or arrange other suitable transport for guests then as far as I understand even if you owned the only taxi company that operated on that end of the island it would still be OK as long as you wrote in a neutral and objective manner. If you edited the section on arriving at the airport and added a caution to avoid taxi touts and to go straight to the public taxi rank for a licensed taxi then I cannot see anyone having a case to make an objection, indeed you would be improving the article with a factual statement by advising of the availability of a public taxi rank. If a competing taxi company was listed as having the only clean taxis on the island and the only honest drivers, assuming that that was not actually true then you could, without editing the offending entry, let an administrator know that it was not true and they would probably edit it to at least re-establish neutrality. If you are writing about a restaurant from your point of view as a customer then you are no different to any other editor regardless of it being in Porlamar or New York City.
 
 
If I were in that situation I would just go through the normal process as per [[Wikitravel:Welcome,_business owners|welcome]] to business owners and build the article on the region that supported my business.
 
 
Personally I do not mind if you do or not. I am only interested in assisting you to become a WT editor. If in someway it indirectly helps to build your business then I am happy. If you do not have a business there and just want to see the article serve a more useful function then for me that also has just as much value.  The article has clearly been improved by your contributions, so there is no issue with me. <br>
 
I just hope you keep on editing, not just the Margarita article but of other locations nearby and anywhere else that you think you can make a positive contribution. You seem to have sufficient enthusiasm and ability for it Just understand that if you have a friend there on Margarita that has a business or you have one yourself it does not in any way disqualify you or make you a lesser contributor, indeed the opposite is the case, you would most likely know more and have a much stronger motivation to get it right than a casual or one time visitor. Anyway enough said on that, I do not want to remind you of any unpleasantness and discomfort that you experienced when trying to edit earlier. What ever the situation I think you were trying to edit in good faith and most certainly you are making a most valuable contribution now that you know how to. So keep up the good work and let me know if I can assist at any time. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:18, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:Now that I know how to post and am getting a handle on the rules, I will be updating and editing on WT. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 18:21, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
::That is great, I am sure you will have lots to contribute. Just make a note [[User:MustSee|here]] with a little statement that you work as the employee of a Car rental business in Margarita Venezuela and that should take care of things. Unless you actually own the business I don't think you need to even say which one. Check that with Jan or one of the administrators though if in doubt. After you have done it maybe leave a note that you have done so on Jan's talk page as you were discussing things there before I think. I have started your main User page off for you now.  Keep up the good work. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 19:52, 23 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:: I clicked on your link and it brought me back here. Am I missing something?
 
:: Just to clairify; I work as the employee of a Car rental business in Margarita Island, Venezuela. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 10:55, 24 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:::Sorry, I should have clarified. The link is to your User page where as this is your User (discussion) page.What I am suggesting is that you just put a little note on there such as I am a resident of Margarta, I love to travel and I work for a local rental car business or what ever you wiish to say about yourself. That should take care of you declaring any 'commercial interest'. I 'opened' up that page for you with a note at the top saying hello and to leave any comments or similar here on your (Talk) page. You can personalise that page however you like, ie put a welcome note on it, say something about yourself, put a photo there or what ever. It is like your own mini article if you want it to be or you can just leave it as a basic hello. Some people do not even activate it. I am just suggesting that this is the way to deal with this issue of you working in the industry. Just put a little note like there about it and then forget about it if you want . "I work as the employee of a Car rental business in Margarita Island, Venezuela." would be fine. It is entirely up to you. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 12:11, 24 October 2010 (EDT)
 
:::: I think I did it right, thanks [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 13:13, 24 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:::::I looked and I could not see what you put on your [[Use:MustSee]] page, then I looked in the edits and I could see it. I don't know why it was not displaying, so I just did it again. Then I got a bit carried away and put in a photo so you could later change it over to one of your own when you upload them. I have given you a national flag, take it out of course if you do not want it there. Same with the map. I used the [[Wikitravel:Babel]] template to put in a banner that describes your English abilities as you mentioned that it is not your 1st language. Seriosly it is only the occasional ''limon'' that gives that away so I thought that the next level down from "native speaker" was appropriate as I assume your 1st language is either Spanish or French (or both). I might add if you had not told me I would have assumed you were a "native" english speaker with some very minor spelling issues. BTY my spelling has some issues of it's own at times. You might want to explore [[Wikitravel:Babel]] and add at least Spanish as I assume you would be pretty good with that as well. If you are serious about WT I think you should do this as someone with such well developed language skills is of course a bit of an asset. You may find other editors ask you to assist with some vexing language translation from time to time. If you would rather just keep your User page absolutely minimal than just delete what I put in there. I is just to show the sort of thing you can do if you want to. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 06:50, 25 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
Limon = a cross between a lemon and a lime. Rarely will you find either here, just limon's. I am fluent in order of learning French, English and Spanish. I am working on Portuguese, although far from fluent. I would not mind helping out when possible. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 11:04, 25 October 2010 (EDT)
 
::I am LOL, I am sorry I went through and 'corrected' them all to Lemon. Sorry about that. Well you are certainly fluent in English. I am envious, I struggle with just one or two. Maybe you had better put a little note in there to explain what a ''Limon'' is otherwise no doubt someone else will 'correct' it again.
 
:::Yeah I got a good LOL also. A note is in order so people know it's not a typo. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 14:27, 26 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:::Looks good now and that note is appropriate I think. Now I know what a limon is I think I want one. I think we have a similar thing here in Indonesia, what people call a jeruk nipis. I have maybe 3 trees but they are not productive at the moment as the LaNina rains here have disrupted many things from fruiting.La Nina has the  opposite effect on our side of the Pacific and it has been raining all through the now ending dry season.[[User:Felix505|felix]] 08:02, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
==Uploading images onto Wikitravel==
 
 
I don't know the rules about adding pictures. I have some great pictures that may be of interest to those reading WT Margarita. Some guidance would be appreciated. Thanks again, [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 11:42, 21 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:Uploading, editing and placing images in articles can be a bit of a learning curve. It is OK and it is not insurmountable but can be a bit frustrating at first. The actual upload process is not exactly straight forward. As a starting point I suggest you have a look over the [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Welcome%2C_newcomers  introductory article on this] that has been written for newcomers. One of the most contentious issues is that of copyright and suitability of the image for ''Commons'' release. If it is your own image then it is a bit easier. You must understand though that when you upload to WT Commons you are ''giving it away''. That is, you are generating rights to ''anyone'' to use the image or to modify it. They should credit to you or at least acknowledge the source but many do not. You may find the image being used to promote someone's business next week or modified in a way that you would not normally authorise, such as cropping, changing the colour gamut or exposure. I have not had a look myself but have a look around at the existing images available on [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Main_Page  Wikishared] and see if there is something already there that you can use in the first instance and use that as a starting point. It is OK to change images later as long as it is seen to be 'improving' the article. If you do load an image into the article it is generally best to place it on the right hand side of the article so as not to create display problems especially for those using small screens such as PDA's. You will need to register separately on WikiShared, I suggest you use the same user name and password to save confusion.[[User:Felix505|felix]] 16:18, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
::I take a lot of random pictures and wouldn't mind anyone using them as they see fit. The technical side may limit me though. I will have to read those links you posted. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 18:23, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
==Edits to Drink section of Margarita==
 
I really like the drinks LOL.
 
 
I had to move them into the Drink section though as WT does not encourage deviation from it's formulaic section layouts. I did not alter the content but did a minor reformat on the line spacing.
 
Someone else might come along and delete the recipies only leaving the drink names as they may think it excessive, I think it is in context and really enjoyed reading it. I assume others will as well. Nice work. Do keep it up. This might actually turn into a decent article. [[User:Felix505|felix]] 05:05, 25 October 2010 (EDT)
 
 
:I really like the drinks too! I will add some more when I get the bartender to give me a list of some popular ones. LIMON is described above, lolYes it is turning into something.
 
 
== [[Porlamar]] deletions ==
 
 
Hi [[User:MustSee|MustSee]], please understand that we do not create a new article for every district in a region so some content just has to go into the nearest appropriate article. For Pampatar and Playa el Angel listings they may just have to find a home in the [[Porlamar]] article as it is the one closest to them. Unless there is some other reason to delete the listings, such as being inappropriate or closed down then please either put them back into the [[Porlamar]] article or move them to a more appropriate article, create and appropriate article for Pampatar and Playa el Angel or move them to the [[Talk:Margarita Island]] page. Do not just delete them as you have been. Similarly, with Vaquero Steak House, in Av. 31 de Julio, Sector El Salado, Via Playa El Agua. That should go back into the [[Playa El Agua]] article. Frankly I think there is insufficient article content to support even the existing number of sub-articles and I have already made comment on the inappropriateness of having a separate article for the island of [[Margarita Island|Margarita]] and also the state of [[Nueva Esparta]] as from a WT perspective they are essentially the same thing. Although I note your frustrations with the policies here there is no need to go slicing out content as you have been, ''Via Playa El Agua'' is quite sufficiently Playa El Agua for the requirements here. I also suggest you do something more appropriate with the clinic info you removed from the [[Margarita Island|Margarita]] article. If these are just regular doctors surgeries then they do not really need to be there and could either go or be placed into the correct sub-article. But if they are clinics of some substance and offer a clear alternative to the islands hospitals then it may be more beneficial to just list them all in the same place as they were before. I will rely on you to make that call as you are blessed with some local knowledge. Thank you also for picking up on the misplacement of the language college, I just accidentally put it into the into the Playa El Yaque article, that content should probably go into the Porlamar article as that is the nearest current article to it geographically. I will look forward to seeing the Playa El Yaque article grow as there seems to be some scope for that to happen as that beach is a significant destination. As you have probably noticed I created an article for [[Playa El Agua]]. I am not convinced that the island can carry much more at this time unless there is a lot of content development. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 12:49, 14 September 2011 (EDT)
 
Hey Felix, I am about ready to throw in the towel as far as WT and the WT Gods go. It appears the rules do not apply to them. The blind leading the blind. Thanks for showing me the ropes. Take care [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 13:23, 14 September 2011 (EDT)MustSee[[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 13:23, 14 September 2011 (EDT)
 
 
== Local news publications ==
 
 
It is OK to put "http://www.elyaquenews.com/" into the Contact section with a brief discription of the publication. Use the <nowiki>* <listing name="" alt="" directions="" address="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="http://www.elyaquenews.com/" hours="" price=""></listing></nowiki> formatting for all the details. -- cheers [[User:Felix505|felix]] 08:25, 17 September 2011 (EDT)
 
 
== Nice job ==
 
 
I've been impressed with the cleanup and development of the [[Margarita Island]] and [[Playa El Yaque]] articles and wanted to say thanks for the work you've done.  Many business owners who contribute to Wikitravel are interested only in seeing their own business listed, but you've got way above and beyond to help create nice guides to the local area.  Nice job - the work is very much appreciated! -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] &bull; ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) &bull; 12:57, 17 September 2011 (EDT)
 
::Yes, I second that. It has been a most impressive effort and I recall that [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] also made quite an effort to improve the [[Margarita Island]] article back toward the end of last year. The greater part of the updating that was done at that time was due to her efforts to get that article into shape and it still benefits from that effort. Good work and please do maintain your interest as your efforts are both constructive and appreciated. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 13:59, 17 September 2011 (EDT)
 
:::Ryan, you fail to realize that I am not a business owner, just a gal who works 6 days a week who has seen some of the underhanded dealings within the industry that I work in. I also oversee the private parking lot on this side of town. When someone's car gets towed, occasionally a crude remark ended up on wikitravel. Felix and I worked hard to put forth a real life list of verified companies that was gutted. You reward nasty and punish the innocent. Nuff said on that! Thanks for the compliment.
 
:::felix, thanks for the kind words. I may continue to fill up the all of M.I. with up to date info. One problem is that there is so much old info out thereon the web that is outdated and frankly just misleading. Luckly I don't need the web. I just recently stumbled across wikimapia, I think that is a great tool, is it permitted to post that on wikitravel? Once I get it figured out better I am going to update it a bit. From the pictures it appears to be between 2 to 3 years old. I guess doing something useful beats playing computer games between customers. [[User:MustSee|MustSee]] 11:37, 18 September 2011 (EDT)
 

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