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m (Message from Seligne: tidy up for clarity)
(My editing access has now been reinstated: new section)
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: Hi Seligne, I am relieved to hear from you so promptly. From what you have mentioned above I think you might be quite interested in the current discussions on the proposed move. It is essential that newer contributors to the project are embraced in any discussions for change and development. I apologise for referring to you as a "new contributor" as I do note you have actually been registered as a WT user for quite some time, however it is apparent you have taken to the task of article improvement with some vigour lately.  It is interesting that you mention TA. Tripadvisor does have a valuable role, it does things that cannot be done here. It's less formalised structure is a lot more accommodating to many people and allows them quite useful levels of information exchange. The [http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum-g294226-i7220-Bali.html Bali forums] are a great example of that. They are dynamic, spirited and in the greater part quite useful. Some other TA forums have less merit and frankly the Reviews are in many cases just entirely deceptive and misleading unless there is a clear and unequivocal provenance in the User's contribution histories.  <br>
 
: Hi Seligne, I am relieved to hear from you so promptly. From what you have mentioned above I think you might be quite interested in the current discussions on the proposed move. It is essential that newer contributors to the project are embraced in any discussions for change and development. I apologise for referring to you as a "new contributor" as I do note you have actually been registered as a WT user for quite some time, however it is apparent you have taken to the task of article improvement with some vigour lately.  It is interesting that you mention TA. Tripadvisor does have a valuable role, it does things that cannot be done here. It's less formalised structure is a lot more accommodating to many people and allows them quite useful levels of information exchange. The [http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum-g294226-i7220-Bali.html Bali forums] are a great example of that. They are dynamic, spirited and in the greater part quite useful. Some other TA forums have less merit and frankly the Reviews are in many cases just entirely deceptive and misleading unless there is a clear and unequivocal provenance in the User's contribution histories.  <br>
 
:If you are going to continue editing then please ''save'' a copy of your edits (in the editing mark up language) in case there are any more major issues developing in the stability of the IB servers. The site is currently being swamped with garbage edits and spam. Since nearly all the regular hard core minders have all slowly wandered off out of frustration the general article integrity site wide is now quickly getting quite messy. When you have finished a series of edits perhaps consider loading up the whole page in edit mode and cut and paste the all of it (in mark up language) into a word processing document and save it you your own harddrive. It would be most upsetting if you did a whole lot of useful work and found it was somehow later 'lost'. Perhaps if you have some spare time have a look at these three links, you will see there are some comments there form myself, and lots from other past and recently present WT editors. This is the [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide Wikimedia page] to have a look at, this one is a [http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Migration_FAQ Migration FAQ] and this one is a [http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Talk:Migration_FAQ discussion of the FAQ] and this one concerns the [http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Interest_in_starting_a_new_language_version Interest in starting a new language version] on WikiVoyage as a temporary home for the project whilst the Wikimedia details are sorted out. It is all a bit arcane but do get involved if you wish, perhpas register the same User name there for added clarity.  cheers and thanks for your reply. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 23:46, 19 August 2012 (EDT)
 
:If you are going to continue editing then please ''save'' a copy of your edits (in the editing mark up language) in case there are any more major issues developing in the stability of the IB servers. The site is currently being swamped with garbage edits and spam. Since nearly all the regular hard core minders have all slowly wandered off out of frustration the general article integrity site wide is now quickly getting quite messy. When you have finished a series of edits perhaps consider loading up the whole page in edit mode and cut and paste the all of it (in mark up language) into a word processing document and save it you your own harddrive. It would be most upsetting if you did a whole lot of useful work and found it was somehow later 'lost'. Perhaps if you have some spare time have a look at these three links, you will see there are some comments there form myself, and lots from other past and recently present WT editors. This is the [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide Wikimedia page] to have a look at, this one is a [http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Migration_FAQ Migration FAQ] and this one is a [http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Talk:Migration_FAQ discussion of the FAQ] and this one concerns the [http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/Interest_in_starting_a_new_language_version Interest in starting a new language version] on WikiVoyage as a temporary home for the project whilst the Wikimedia details are sorted out. It is all a bit arcane but do get involved if you wish, perhpas register the same User name there for added clarity.  cheers and thanks for your reply. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 23:46, 19 August 2012 (EDT)
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== My editing access has now been reinstated ==
 +
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As [[User_talk:IBobi#Rogue_admin.3FRogue|IBobi]] locked me out with a 1 week editing access [[Special:Log/block|Ban]] earlier today it has somewhat clarified my feelings concerning the appropriateness of my further involvement in this project in it's current incarnation.<br>
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I assume his actions were endorsed by his employers, [http://www.internetbrands.com/ Internet Brands], who currently provide the host servers for this Project.<br>
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The detail of the Ban is described at ''01:02, 21 August 2012 IBobi (Talk | contribs) blocked Felix505 (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (account creation disabled) ‎ (Spam solicitations on WT members' talk pages)''
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The block (ID is #12042) was eventually successfully removed at 07:32, 21 August 2012 by Dguillaime [[User_Talk:Dguillaime|Talk]] (unblocked #12042) following thwarted attempts by WT admins. I was not the only victim of this mischief today.
 +
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Of course I was not placing "Spam" on  WT members talk pages as the Ban notes suggest, the action taken in 'banning' me from Project participation was just an act of sheer mischief by someone with entirely inappropriate administrator level access to the Project.<br>
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However that signals the death knell for me. I will just observe the WT carcass from a distance now.
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I see no potentially constructive outcomes from further engagement with IBobi as he appears to have become feral. 
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My POV concerning the appropriateness of the Ban is outlined [[User_talk:IBobi#Rogue_admin.3FRogue|here]] in IBobi's Talk page and there is some briefer commentary on the [[Wikitravel:Travellers'_pub#Rogue_WT_administrator_blocking_Users.2C_is_he_blatantly_working_well_outside_established_Project_policies_and_guidelines.3F|Travellers pub]] page.  In the most part I have enjoyed working on this project, I am saddened to see what has now become of it.
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I can be found  [http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/User:Felix here] on Wikivoyage
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Also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Felix505 here] on Wikipedia
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Best wishes to all who remain working on the task here. -- [[User:Felix505|felix]] 04:28, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

Revision as of 08:32, 21 August 2012

2009 content of this Talk page have been moved to User talk:Felix505/Archives 2009

Contents

Tanjung

Hi Felix! Thank you very much for your work on the Lombok articles. I took the bold move and added the smallcity template in the Tanjung article and copied your Villa listings from the talk page in the article. Feel absolute free to work on it and i hope that i at least could offer an absolute minor asssistance for your work. You can now shift listings from other articles to Tanjung if they belong their. Best regards, jan 11:08, 20 May 2010 (EDT)

Hi Felix! Thank you very much for your response. You can work direct in the article as beside you only User:Burmesedays have really knowledge of the area and are likely to contribute. I was in 2008 in Lombok and liked it, that's the reason for my interest. Please let me know if i can help. Have a nice evening, jan 12:06, 20 May 2010 (EDT)
Well done Felix. Please do plunge forward. Of the "new" required articles for Lombok, I recently knocked together Senaru and Tetebatu from scratch but I don't know enough about the other destinations. I will write the Oberoi listing for Tanjung though as I have stayed there twice.--Burmesedays 12:09, 20 May 2010 (EDT)
Hi again and thanks for the encouragement. if PLN does not switch the power off on me again I will go ahead and put the Tangung draft up on the talk page in a minute and unless it looks really out of whack I will move it across to the main article page after a bit of a look over. You may like to run your eyes over it. Hope some other may like to help out once it is up. Thanks againfelix 13:01, 20 May 2010 (EDT)
I am with you on PLN.... buying a generator was the best $500 I have ever spent in Bali.--Burmesedays 13:04, 20 May 2010 (EDT)
Looking at Talk:Tanjung, I think you are very much on the right lines - well done. The information (particularly about transport) that is already covered by Lombok, needs to be pruned a bit I think. Good work. --Burmesedays 13:19, 20 May 2010 (EDT)
Yes you are quite right and I am going to cut that up quite ruthlessly in a minute, it is just there to give me a starting point. Thanks though for the good advicefelix 13:30, 20 May 2010

(EDT)

Qunci and roads

I am off to bed, but quickly on two points:

  • Jl for Jalan is quite well established. See the three Bali star articles for example (the only Indonesian stars), and a short discussion here Talk:Indonesia#Jalan, where I think Jani was dead right: Jalan in prose (especially first time in an article) and Jl in listings.
  • Qunci is a problem. We have a hard and fast rule here than one business can list only one time. In this case I can see why two listings would be justified, but that is a rule which has served WT so well, I am sure it will not get bent! So they will need to have two different names - I leave that to your creativity... could both start with Qunci. Alternatively, the villas could be included with the main hotel listing. Honestly, I did not realise the Qunci entries were new. If I had, I would have discussed with you first...sorry about that. (ps.. I don't use Speedy - terrible - and yep I will have a squint at Tanjung tomorrow.) Cheers. --Burmesedays 12:36, 23 May 2010 (EDT)


Hi Burmesedays, thanks for the response and the good info. " Jani was dead right: Jalan in prose (especially first time in an article) and Jl in listings" is well defined.

I will look at the article later out of interest but I will just follow the guideline above as that makes such perfect sense. Uses up less space and Jl.' is a widely accepted abbreviation of '"Jalan" thoughout iindonesia. I was only trying to do one thing or another as there seemed to be a random mix and sometimes "Jl. is definitely unsuitable (such as in prose). I will go through and weed out what I can find from my recent efforts on the provider listings (senggigi and tanjung).

I thought you may have missed the subtle name conflict problem with qunci. Responding to the (article) comment on the rather generous use of the term "Villa" I leapt in took the initiative to list what I consider ARE representative of real Villas in Senggigi roughly following something like the following definition:

  • 1. Has a sufficiently grand and opulent dominant characteristics
  • 2. Has a character and architectural identity at least sufficient to enough to make it something more than a big house or bungalow with a swimming pool, rolled up towels and refrigerator larger than a bar fridge.
  • 3. If associated with a Hotel and most especially if it shares the grounds then it really needs to have a distincty character all of it's own that is quite removed from the Hotel business. In my opinion it is otherwise just a big bungalow.

In Mangsit the Puri Mas owner has built himself something possibly best described as a small palace. I understand he is going to rent it as a "Villa" in high season. I think although buried within the so called Poolside Boutique Villas at Pur Mas this small palace probably desrerves to be called a Villa. I did not mention it though as I think is insufficiently separated and defined from the hotel and the so-called PURI MAS BOUTIQUE HOTEL - Puri Mas Ocean Villas. Accordingly I left it out of the Villa section. Holiday resort has something I think they used to call a "presidential suite". It is reasonably secluded in the hotel grounds and is way off at the end of the beach front bungalows but really it is not a "Villa" and they do not call it as such preferring to call it a "beach Garden Suite. I think that is appropriate. Others in Senggigi are possibly getting a bit carried away with themselves.

Again in Mangsit there is a place called Verve VIllas. It is a largish beachside 'villa' built on the site of a proposed and yet unrealised "Verve Villas" site. I think they are possibly planning to build a nest of the familiar high density upmarket housing unit with pool so commonly and misleadingly promoted as a "Villa".

Here is the website <http://www.vervevillas.com/aboutus.html> I think it should probably be listed as a Villa as it is a bit of a stand out but it is possibly thin on the first clarification above of ... "1. Has a sufficiently grand and opulent dominant characteristics" or at least is a bit borderline. I would appreciate your viewpoint on this.

I will put Qunci back into both sections and try and invent a way to overcome the name problem so that it works. If not successful then we should probably run only the hotel section but then it becomes unfair to run another operators villa that is maybe of a lesser quality just because they don't have a hotel operation with a similar name. I will repost with the names of the Villas and bury in the text that they are owned and operated buy qunci villas lombok. Let me know what you think and if not OK then we will have to think of another solution.

I had a quick look at south Bali. Looks like it has come a long way since sept 2009. Nice work.felix 13:47, 23 May 2010 (EDT)

Talk pages

As a rule, it is not the best of form to delete content on a talk page. Better is to create an archive so that no discussions are lost. See User_talk:Peterfitzgerald for example. You could clear out the 2009 content from here by creating a page User talk:felix505/Archives 2009. I have for now restored all the content to this page.--Burmesedays 21:53, 23 May 2010 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads up on that I assumed it was just referenced from the histories. Accordingly so as not to have a page full of dialogue and clutter I did and edit. Did the same to the comments I left on your talk page yesterday as I thought it unnecessary to leave the ramble about qunci there when we had essentially moved it across to my talk page. I appreciate the info on archive...will do nowfelix 00:06, 24 May 2010 (EDT)

Looks like my gut feeling on Rinjani was correct as it has been erupting with ash and small lava flows since saturday. Hence my earlier editing the page with the official alerts and advisories. I think we should consider putting back some of the info again with content updated to today. My information at the time was that the trekking and guide outfits were completely ignoring the advisories and taking people to the summit, the hot springs and the lake. Well they might be getting into some hot water or something even more exciting soon. I think we should have a think about the warning panel or the Current activity section I was proposing. The suggestion by Burmesedays of the warning panel is good but may be unnecessarily frightening to some at this time, where as a Current activity section may be more appropriate at this time and a panel if things really heat up (sorry could not resist that). I will look into the official reports in the next hour or so PLN permitting (already off 5 times today). FYI ...Also posted this not to the Rinjani talk page and Burmesedays talk pagefelix 01:04, 24 May 2010 (EDT)

I have just added a Recent activity section to Rinjani. It could either be transient with that info moved to the History section in 1-2 weeks or be redone as a transient warning panel and info moved out to History section as appropriate to eventsfelix 01:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
All good in the Mount Rinjani article I think. Well done. Why have you created an article called Rinjani? Repetition is another no-no :). That page should be a redirect at best. Also a small formating point: it is US$ and not USD$. --Burmesedays 02:33, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
I see what you were trying to do. To create a redirect, start the article, then just hit the #REDIRECT template in the Wiki markup section at the bottom of the edit page. Then insert the name of the page to redirect to in between the sets of double brackets. I have done so for Rinjani.--Burmesedays 02:50, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
Thanks for that and thanks for fixing it. I thought I saw that template days ago when I first thought to do something about this. When I went to actually do it the process defied me as I just could not see it. I will go look at what you have done. BTY when I was looking around the Bali page I noticed that if the browser window in narrowed down to an extreme the map fails to -wrap- on the -regions-. Just thought I should mention it as you are in the mood for fixing things. You guidance and assistance has been appreciatedfelix 02:59, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
On the Bali map, that's a browser issue I am afraid. Impossible to format it correctly for every possible browser and screen resolution combination.--Burmesedays 03:10, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
Safari on a mac laptop at this end with 17 inch LCD screen resolution:1680 x 1050, I will go and look using mozilla firefox. That's odd as other similar wikitravel pages seem to wrap OK but I have not exactly been going looking so I guess I have just never crushed a wikitravel window up like that before. I only saw the Bali issue because I squashed the window so aggressively whilst looking at it for some arcane detail or another. I have done the USD to US changes on Tanjung. Sorry about that, before it was a mix of just plain $, US$ and USD$ so I just conformed the articles to what I thought was most accurate (USD$), so now I know I will endeavour not to use USD$ anymore.felix 03:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)

looks like some listing hijacking mischief is occurring on both Rinjani and Senggigi pages by an ip 202.70.58.115

On 14:29, 31 May 2010 ( 202.70.58.115 ) made some alterations to RINJANI (→Guides and trekking agencies) Rinjani trekking club details were changed giving a different URL, address and contact details:

  • Domain Name: RINJANITREKKINGCLUB.COM - Registrant: PT.LOMBOK TROPIC HOLIDAYS TRAVEL SERVICE - Andi Hermansyah, Jl. Raya Senggigi 112

Senggigi, Batu Layar, Lombok Barat, 83355, Tel. +62.370692225, Fax. +62.370692225. This (alternative) Rinjani Trekking Club has contact details on their webpage: "rtcsenaru@gmail.com, Text massage for 24 hours reservation at :+62 (0) 817 5754 551 / (0) 8180 5712 752" (sic, they are indeed doing a lot of "text mAssage)> their IP is 72.52.162.209

  • The original listing on Wikitravel Rinjani - describes: Rinjani Trekking Club. their website http://www.info2lombok.com/ is still active at IP: 75.127.69.157 and their details are provided as Rinjani Trekking Club 2009, C/O: CV. Rinjani Club Tour & Travel Service, JL. Raya Senggigi Km 08, Senggigi 83355 Lombok - Indonesia, Tel / Fax: 62 370 693 202 Mobile : +628175730415, E-mail: rinjaniclub@gmail.com
  • I smell a rat, especially as at 14:37, on 31 May 2010 (202.70.58.115) did an interesting edit on a forest trekking providers entry on the [Senggigi] page. This edit retained the service description verbatim but replaced the service title with "Soft Trekking", replaced the provider name, and the provider contact details. This was undone 2 minutes later by [Jc8136] who seemed to spot the hijack. I note the operator of the 'replacement service also changed the word "personalised" to personalized to reflect an american english spelling.
  • The domain of the Trekking in Senggigi substitute is in the US and the website represrents a Lombok travel service: Lombok Holiday Tour at http://www.lombokholidaytour.com/. IP: 69.65.43.164

IP Location: Arlington Heights, United States. The site's copy is in english as a 2nd language indolish dialect, in a style not unlike that on the substitute Rinjani website. I quote from the new website "We are the only Rinjani Trekking club in Senaru-Lombok, It's established in 1989 with 10 member (Porter and Trekking Guide) and now with member over 100 Porter and Trekking Guide. If there other website who advertise for Rinjani, Most of them are going through us for an arrangements".(sic)

So it seems the two Wikitravel incidents are related by more than mere coincidence.

  • It maybe prudent to block (202.70.58.115) and keep an eye out for other activities by this operator.
  • (202.70.58.115) seems to belong to this domain: inetnum: 202.70.58.0 - 202.70.58.255, netname: SMART-TELECOM-ID, country: ID, descr: Mobile Network Provider.

Lombok Holiday Tour have been up to some hijack antics elsewhere as well <http://visitinglombok.blogspot.com/2009/01/some-travel-agents-in-lombok.html> this time by flooding the comments section of a site that does not list them. This one also look for their URL buried in the discussion post <http://www.dailycandy.com/online/article/39347/Insiders-Guide-to-Indonesia> and <http://www.travelertalk.com/the-islands-of-komodo-dragons-indonesia-jurassic-park.html> and <http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Asia/Indonesia/West_Nusa_Tenggara_Province/Lombok-1214370/Things_To_Do-Lombok-BR-1.html> and many many more. In fact these guys have hands on more things than a drunk at a dance party. Often using the name - Adietya - that sometimes is hot-linked to no surprises here....<http://www.lombokholidaytour.com/> felix 09:34, 2 June 2010 (EDT)

Well spotted felix. I shall leave this in your capable hands.--Burmesedays 09:45, 2 June 2010 (EDT)
I can just second Burmesedays: Good view and i will have a closer look at Rinjani too. I liked Lombok and one of these days i will return. In case the unruly behaviour continues, feel free to start a section at the Wikitravel_talk:Local_spam_blacklist with the offending url. Several other users will then help you out fast. jan 11:48, 2 June 2010 (EDT)
Thanks for the info on blacklisting, I will try and keep an eye on the pages and I if the problem returns I will follow your advice. It seems their mischief is widespread and has been going on for quite a while. I am sure Burmesedays will be watching out for them as well. felix 12:22, 2 June 2010 (EDT)

Doubling up

Felix, please remember the WT guidelines on duplication of content. At Lembar for example, Lombok Taksi should not be listed as the company is covered well in the Lombok article. I will leave that to you to sort out. Thanks. --Burmesedays 09:31, 3 June 2010 (EDT)

  • Yes, I have been duplicating the taxi contact entries However the the context is a little different in each article as the taxi conditions vary from place to place.

I think the taxi commentary is contextual but maybe I have floated off into a taksi dream of some sort. Please have a look over the content AND the context for me as you might be a bit more objective than I as I have been writing that detail and so see it through different eyes.

  • My feeling is that if the information about where the taxis are and indeed if they are likely to be there at all is remotely valid then the means of summoning them up is equally valuable.
  • I have put the detail in as I am often surprised that visitors and locals alike despair over there being no taxi about but never think to just call one up from a cellphone, They are often somewhere nearby and turn up in a couple of minutes. This is a far better option than some of the crazy stuff that goes on with tourists and bemos and car 'transport' operators. I think some people just don't ever think of it or maybe they just don't know the number or the radio despatch service even exists. Hence my edits.
  • Also I have been going through the pages standardising a lot of the entires to wikitravel markup and that then tends to make the formatting of the taxi info 'repeat' the typographic 'look' of the section content on each article.

Please let me know what you think. felix 10:31, 3 June 2010 (EDT)

  • Hi Burmesedays and others, I have now gone through all the Lombok and downstream articles editing the taxi sections to try and both standardise the entries and also give sufficient regional clarity to each of those entries. Lombok has some unique issues not uncommon in the 3rd world but never the less are specific to Lomboks individual situation including that of distance, geography and commercial activity of the taxi companies involved, especially in the quieter and more remote corners of the island.
  • The Bluebird group is the dominant and most prolific supplier. Airport taksi are restricted to ex airport arrivals passengers only. The number 2 operator, Express, is a professional operator with near new, clean radio despatched cabs but my understanding is that the Bluebird group has purchased Express Group. I may be ill-informed on this but if so it means that Lombok really only has one operator using 2 brands. (Express however remains an independent and separate operation as far as I can understand).
  • The reason I have repeated the contact details for Bluebird alone in the sub articles is that aside from the zone from Mataram thru to Senggigi Express have only a small impact on Island-wide service coverage. Accordingly Express have their contact details described in the Lombok (main) article only but are mentioned as a supplier in the sub-articles.
  • The reason I have listed/(repeated) the basic contact (phone/URL) for bluebird in each article is that I have observed a lot of issues arising in Lombok concerning taxi's and tourist transport even inside the better serviced Mataram to Mangsit zone. It is my belief that visitors and many locals as well do not understand that a taxi can be summoned by a phone call and the companies radio despatch system. Often the tourists fall prey to opportunistic touts, tour and car 'transport' operators and even hotel staff who take a tidy commission to organise 'transport' to Gilli's or even to and from the hotel when a basis taxi will probably do the job better, quicker and cheaper and with a lot less intrique. It is not that I want to see the private transport operators and facilitators miss out on providing a service, I would just like to see the sector clean up and offer a more professional and straight forward service to visitors, then those visitors will be more likely to come back to the island and they will also give the destination more favourable recommendation to others.
  • Further to all this many people now use 'smart' phones and can pull up web pages such as Wikitravel as a quick reference resource. Lets spare these people the need to navigate the full Island articles top down or bottom up to quickly get a taxi phone number. Many visitors may not even underrstand that there is just the two taxi companies covering Lombok and that only one of them really has any degree of geographic 'reach'. Hopefully as WT editors and content contributors we can endeavour to demystify the destination. I believe providing basic taxi contact (phone) info in each section assists in doing this
  • It must also be noted that taxi's and bemo's are the most commonly available and most commonly used method of emergency transport for accident and medical emergencies. The police will sometimes transport an emergency accident victim but only if they have a vehicle available and on the scene. It is rare to see an Ambulance attending a Trauma scene in rural Lombok or even in the cities and town, normally they are used for more rudimentary patient transfers.

In Lomboks situation I think it is important the details of how to SUMMON a taxi asap should be as prominent and as successful as possible. I do understand this is in slight variance to normal WT guidelines but in this situation I think the provision of Taxi contact details displayed in each Lombok is valid. felix 00:51, 5 June 2010 (EDT)

Sydney

Whoa, nice work on Sydney! --Peter Talk 16:00, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

Thanks for the kind comment, it might need a check over though, especially with all the debate of the borders of the adjoining areas. Some things overlap the boundaries, like Moore park.felix 16:15, 11 June 2010 (EDT)


Lombok airline table

Airlines Destinations Terminal Aircraft type
Batavia Air Jakarta, Surabaya
Domestic
737-200, 737-300, 737-400, A319-100 [1]
Garuda Indonesia Jakarta, Denpasar, Yogyakarta
Domestic
737-300, 737-400, 737-500 [2]
Garuda Indonesia Kuala Lumpur (via CGK)
Domestic
737-300, 737-400, 737-500, 737 800/NG [3]
Garuda Indonesia operated by Citilink Jakarta
Domestic
737-300, 737-400 [4]
Indonesian Air Transport Denpasar
Domestic
F27-500/600, F50 [5]
Lion Air Jakarta, Surabaya
Domestic
737-400, 737-900ER, MD90 [6]
Merpati Nusantara Airlines Denpasar, Jakarta
Domestic
F100, 737-300 ATR 72-212, M60 [7]
Merpati Nusantara Airlines Kuala Lumpur (via SUB)
Domestic
737-300, 737-400
Silk Air Singapore
International
A319-100 [8]
Trans Nusa Denpasar, Bima, Sumbawa,
Ende via DPS-TMC
Labuanbajo, Tambolaka via DPS
Domestic
F50, ATR-42 300
BAe146-100 (DPS-TMC) [9]
Trigana Air Denpasar
Domestic
ATR-42 [10]
Wings Air Surabaya (code share Lion AIr)
Domestic
MD 83, MB90 [11]

felix 17:15, 27 August 2010 (EDT)


Airlines Destinations Terminal Aircraft type
Batavia Air Jakarta, Surabaya
Domestic
737-200, 737-300, 737-400, A319-100
Garuda Indonesia Jakarta, Denpasar, Yogyakarta
Domestic
737-300, 737-400, 737-500
Garuda Indonesia Kuala Lumpur (via CGK)
Domestic
737-300, 737-400, 737-500, 737 800/NG
Citilink operated by Garuda Indonesia Jakarta
Domestic
737-300, 737-400
Indonesian Air Transport Denpasar
Domestic
F27-500/600, F50
Lion Air Jakarta, Surabaya
Domestic
737-400, 737-900ER, MD90
Merpati Nusantara Airlines Denpasar, Jakarta
Domestic
F100, 737-300 ATR 72-212, M60
Merpati Nusantara Airlines Kuala Lumpur (via SUB)
Domestic
737-300, 737-400
Silk Air Singapore
International
A319-100 ]
Trans Nusa Denpasar, Bima, Sumbawa,
Ende via DPS-TMC
Labuanbajo, Tambolaka via DPS
Domestic
F50, ATR-42 300
BAe146-100 (DPS-TMC)
Trigana Air Denpasar
Domestic
ATR-42
Wings Air Surabaya (code share Lion AIr)
Domestic
MD 83, MB90

felix 18:41, 27 August 2010 (EDT)

mega ayu homestay

hello, why you edited and then deleted my entry for lovina / mega ayu homestay?

with 50 000 rupie (around 6-7 us dollar) it belongs definatively to budget.

Mega Ayu homestay

hello, why you edited and then deleted my entry for lovina / mega ayu homestay?

with 50 000 rupiah (around 6-7 us dollar) it belongs definitively to budget.

I am a bit mystified as to why you think I deleted it, I only removed a line break from the mark-up. I have edited it now though as the listings details for Mega Ayu homestay in Lovina are a bit confusing. Is this music in the night truly "silent music" If so maybe it is not really music, that would possibly be best described as a mime act. I will edit it to read "quiet music as I assume that is what you mean.
The silent music in the night comes from the clubs on the road next road. It is far away to be not too noisy but also near enough to hear it sometimes mostly ending at 1 am.
Also Andreas84 please use ~~~~ to sign your name when you leave a message so that it is clear who you are. It is a bit of a mystery who you are otherwise and requires a look through the edit histories to find out. Did you perhaps check the article before leaving this message. I looked through the edit histories and no one, including myself has ever removed the mega ayu homestay listing or moved it elsewhere from the Budget section. I think the phone contact number has too many digits. This looks like a telkomsel number +62 88 133 803 0275. Maybe that is one too many 8s I have changed it to read +62 813 3803 0275 as that seems to be more likely to be correct. felix 11:23, 19 November 2010 (EST)
I did register now to ask about this i had this account not as i wrote the article...

I did not see the article later so i taught it was removed. I am new to wiki travel (as writer) so i did not read the history proper maybe. I think your edit is good, thank you :) Btw i think the small number for homepage is a bit misleading as newbies just might don't see it and think there is no homepage attached... Allready had this problem.

Yes, I agree the URL link represented by the number is probably not understood by a lot of people. If you think this is something that needs some enquiry then perhaps raise it at Wikitravel:Travellers' pub. Currently is is the mandated style for URL display. Don't worry I understood you were probably new to wikitravel and had not understood the listing had not just 'disappeared'. Thanks for getting back to me. Terima makasih ya. felix 10:56, 21 November 2010 (EST)

Australian online postal mail service

Hi Felix, I don't quite understand why you deleted our link off the Australian Wiki, and your concern relating to Identity theft. Also I would like to advise you that HotSnail has customers who are either migrating to Austrlia and are preparing servicee for when they arrive. In order for them to do this, they require an Australian postal address but are not yet in Australia and unable to receive their mail. HotSnail also has customers who are backpackers or other travellers who are travelling around Australia for several months or years and require services in Australia like mobile phones, or vehicle registration but do not have a fixed address for receiving this type of mail. In this respect, HotSnail's online mail management services are unique within Australia and provide an easy solution for an otherwise difficult situation in re-routing mail manually.

Hi User:Karlostavitch Talk. I am concerned about the listing of your HotSnail business on several levels other than the inadvertent exposure to identity theft. If, as you suggest, you are supplying this service to current and potential visa applicants then you you need to understand that the applicants concerned would then be in breach of commonwealth immigration laws. I have left a detailed response on your talk page. felix 09:31, 22 December 2010 (EST)

I am responding to your response regarding deleting of HotSnail from Postal Services

- Your concerns of identity theft are only true on the assumption that HotSnail is operating illegally, or staff within. HotSnail performs police checks on operators who process mail. The only mail which is opened is at the customers request. HotSnail does not promote or advice customers how they should use these services. (regarding immigration, banking or vehicle registration or any other reason).

- I didn't mention Au immigration requirements, I said "preparing services for when they arrive" which includes planning, job applications, general inquireys and anything else whcih uses postal mail for corrospondace before they have actually migrated.

- A gap exists between postal mail and email which people depend on frequently, postal mail is especially difficult to manage while travelling. HotSnail simply fills this gap and provides a greater deal convenience for travellers in Australia and opens the door to services from other instituations which were previously unpractical or impossible.

- Most people might use Pre-Paid, but this it was previously the only practical option available to them without an online postal mail service in Australia.

- Its unrealistic to expect a person in a motorhome travelling around Australia to continually update their address details wherever they go (I would say even for registration, I would be suprised if there were any who actually do. I am not advising people of vehicle registration laws or not to abide them). Previous to Online Postal Management services mail redirection has been a major inconvenience to people travelling around in Australia and are required to receive postal mail.

- A traveller can only recieve mail via Poste Restante when they know they that corrospondance is being sent to them at that time, and can notify the sender of the closest post office to them at that time. This is not a practical solution for many travellers.

- I am not affiliated with PrivateBox but it is another example of a legitimate business needed by people who travel frequently.

Hi User:Karlostavitch Talk, for clarity I have responded to your comments on your own user page so that jumping back and forward is not required...felix 14:41, 23 December 2010 (EST)

Kota Kinabalu / TARP

Hi Felix, I notice the links to Usukan Bay (Kota Kinabalu page) was removed (again) and instead the content is now directed to TARP alone. Jesselton Point is the main pier where most passenger boat departs from. TARP is not the only destination it heads to. Maybe I don't understand how this works or is that how it is for you?

Hi Edrie Mc, many of the recent editing activities on the Kota Kinabalu and related destinations have not been assisting in the development of the articles concerned. If journeys to Usukan Bay destinations, including to the WWII wreck dive sites are departing from Jesselton Point then I can see no reason that information should be removed from the article. When I looked back over the histories to see why Urskan Bay was removed I noted that one of your recent edits incorporated the previously described Urskan Bay destination into a frontlinked URL to BD. Not only was placing the link to BD inappropriate and in breach of WT guidelines but the frontlinking itself was also in breach of WT guidelines. When I deleted that link it unfortunately took the Urskan Bay detail with it. BD are a repeat offender in the matter of inserting inappropriate links into article content and on this occasion I just removed your edit content without poring over it for detail. You may note, as I do, that not only did your business link go but article content that indirectly assisted your endeavours went with it as well. I will of course now put the Usukan Bay detail back in but please try and learn from this incident. When you try and manipulate an article in this manner it can eventually not only degrade the article and its potential to assist your business but ultimately may also inadvertently lead to other detail being removed that was of indirect benefit to the BD business operation.
It is important to understand that the concept of Wikitravel is to serve the interests of the traveller, not the interests of a business wishing to promote to the traveller. As such it is necessary to present the information that is desirable within an article in a manner that it is not associated with the promotion of an individual business endeavour alone. Please ensure that you only include detail in the article in an impartial manner and in a way that it does not hijack the description of that attraction or activity. An example of this would be including Borneo Dream as a wreck dive provider. The wreck dives should be described as an attraction without seeking to promote the interests of any particular dive company. This facilitates the development of the article and the impartial description of the attraction concerned. Doing this also then provides the opportunity for another provider to be listed without having to re-write the whole section each time a provider is added or their details change. The BD listing content is the suitable vehicle to explain that BD service an attraction, it also details the resources of BD with sufficient detail that it is apparent that BD are a suitable supplier for that activity. If BD depart from a particular pier do not list BD there as well as that would constitute a repeat listing and so be subject to deletion. Suffice to mention in the BD listing that boats depart from Jesselton Point if you wish but only if that information is so structured that it appears to be assisting the traveller. If Jesselton Point has a description it could mention that "several dive charter operators use this pier." or something similar. Similar with Usukan Bay, the detail should describe the attraction and or activities there that are of interest to the traveller. The BD listing is the correct place to describe the BD association with that particular attraction. I vaguely recall an earlier edit where I reworked the dive site details to accommodate the details of operators that went there but then someone came along and started listing contact details within the prose and subsequently the entire reference to the provider was deleted.
Please understand that eventually the editors that try and maintain the integrity of articles such as Kota Kinabalu and TARP get somewhat weary of business contributors attempting to hijack an article or sections of it and we will eventually become less accommodating when it appears the contributor is not interested in observing reasonable and readily accessible contribution protocols and guidelines. This indeed one of the reasons why the BD listings were suspended a while back.
What truly astounds me in relation to BD is that although the article content has previously been laden with destination content and description of technical dive characteristics that have only been listed as being provided by BD there are have been edits that attempt to tag that content with inappropriate links and promotional statements directing to BD. I must caution that if this content and URL linking problem persists editors and administrators on this site may become considerably less tolerant or accommodating and may be more inclined to delete rather than rewrite or edit detail. This is most likely where the contributor has continued to breach WT policy for an extended time. I caution that unless some considerable effort is made by BD then listings associated with that enterprise may be removed from this and other articles and any further attempts to list or promote BD and it's associated enterprises may give cause for an immediate edit revert. Please have a look over Wikitravel:Manual of style, Wikitravel:Welcome, business owners. Thank you for leaving me a message and please make a serious effort to understand and respect Wikitravel guidelines if you wish the business to continue to be listed here . felix 14:57, 6 January 2011 (EST)

Easington Lane

Poses a very real danger to all travellers. When you are abducted because you did not heed my warnings, you will wish you never deleted that article.

Have you been to this place?

How do you know which is which? Please answer! By the way, you have already change the perfect description of place to a wrong description. Double check your English about the common area then living room. Do not change other things that which is not violating any terms of use, not to say trying to show of your lousy ways to describe a place that you have not even been to! Answer and stop changing, coz the last person that thinks it was ok and change it was the admin...--Backpackersfreak 17:35, 24 January 2011 (EST)

Melaka Entertainment

Melaka entertainment-agree and done.--Backpackersfreak 17:34, 24 January 2011 (EST)

Got the same say with the others about ways of your editing.

You make yourself looks like an "s hole" when it comes to deleting or editing some other people listing. It is not a very healthy thing as you do not answer your talk when people question you! My advice to you is go there and find out yourself before you think people is touting or whatsoever! Plus, if you don't even know the place well or have yet been there or the last time you were there was like 10 years ago, do a bit of research first. Don't just sit in front of computer and thinking that you have been there and you are on top of the world. You will ended up just like any other computer blogger freak. You travel, you write! You don't travel, you shut the "FxXk UP!" Thanks! Proof/Matters Arise: 1. Melaka-Drink- I do not find that all listing should follow all guided protocol. Reason: Exception can be made if one finds the listing is not suitable: e.g: "Cendol" is a local delights of ice blended drinks in melaka. It is listed in Drink already, but partying and drinking beers is not, it's solely entertainment! So this will make people confused. So, it's either you take "Cendol" out and list it in somewhere else, or you add another non-confusing listing to differentiate.

2. Business listing may change from time to time, info might not be correct. Unless you have stayed there. I thought I remember LTPower said that wiki travel want to be different from guide book, here at Wiki Travel, we want something accurate by the fellow travelers. Not information from any other form of media or even by the business owner himself! We shared our information if we think it is worth it for others to go and try out. If not, don't bother listing by writing something inaccurate at all.

I don't think you can understand these. Let's make Wiki Travel grow, not to condemned!

Hope to see you answer "Talk" soon. I got to go now, bus is waiting. Bye Melaka! (Unsigned comment by User:2011 60.51.118.14

  • 1-You seem a bit confused Backpackersfreak (Talk} (2011 60.51.118.14). It is not your listing, nor is Malacca your article. It is a Wikitravel article and your business establishment has been listed in it subject to some fairly well defined policies and guidelines, a great number of which you have relentlessly broken despite cautions and edit reverts of your work. Through a steady process of your own destructive and disruptive edit/reverts you have sought to present your business in a manner that breaches a fair number of those policies, all of which are clearly laid out for you to look at in the help and guidance sections of the WT website. I suggest that if you wish to continue contributing here that you try an get a grasp on what is going on before you start attacking and insulting another editor. You know nothing of who I am, where I am or where I have been and even if you did your opinion is pretty much condemned by your silly attitude. I suggest that you do not engage in further destructive and non-productive activity. Reverting and deleting information in an article or repetitiously reformatting or reverting the content or editing corrections generated by other WT editors is considered to be edit warring and is somewhat frowned upon here.
  • 2-It is interesting that you are accusing me of "deleting or editing some other people listing other peoples work" (sic). Yes indeed, you are quite right there, I do a lot of that when in fact I would rather be adding content, developing or starting a new an article. Instead, like many editors here our time is spent dealing with imbeciles who care to edit in a chaotic and uninformed manner and then launch into self-righteous and self aggrandising rants when they feel they have been slighted. Indeed what you have been doing is deconstructing a lot of constructive content and formatting work I was doing on that article by performing full edit reverts and then re-instating your own grandiose and quite inappropriate business listing. Please just read the guidelines, hopefully the links there will assist you. Content, editing guidelines, advice to business owners and other helpful tips that will help you avoid looking like a misguided and ill-informed belligerent are all linked there. Your editing, your content and your modifications of the WT article format, your ignoring of the policies and your over the top touting are all quite inappropriate to this venue. These are not my policies, rather they are the established policies and guidelines of Wikitravel. For heavens sake I do not even agree with all of them but if they are not followed then the site will rapidly de-generate into a chaotic free-for-all, as indeed you have been trying to achieve with your recent edits. No do not create a new section for things that take your interest, just stick with the standard article formatting.
  • 3-Entertainment, this is not a usable WT Section article heading, such content goes under Do if you are taking part in it, See if it is something you passively watch or maybe visit. Drink is for listing those activities involve people drinking and places that provide the goods and services to partake of, such as coffee, a carbonated glass of lemonade, beer, vodka schnapps or what-ever. "Cendol", (is it not a drink...put it under drink). If the Drink is served in a restaurant then mention that they serve it in the description of the restaurant concerned, whilst listing it in the Eat section. The eat section has a standard 3 sub-section; Budget, Mid-range and Splurge. Please have a read of the guidelines for article sections before you launch into any more tirades on that subject. You will find that an Entertainment section does not exist. Rather we try and work the content into the existing format. That is why I removed the content in the Entertainment section and distributed it into Eat, and Drink. That article on Malacca is a bit chaotic and indeed I have been trying to re-aligh it with WT guidelines so that it is common themed and also not so confusing for new editors who may wish to contribute. You seem to have been fixated on disrupting that process by undoing my edits.
    You state--" "Cendol" is a local delights of ice blended drinks in melaka. It is listed in Drink already, but partying and drinking beers is not, it's solely entertainment! So this will make people confused."-- it is you that seems a bit confused I think. Are you suggesting that"Cendol" is NOT a drink, if so, what is it ... a meal? How silly.
  • 4- Wikitravel has some well established procedures if there is disagreement on article content, raise it on the Discussion page for the article. Please state your issues on article content there, do not delete any more content of other editors. If you think the content, or the edits I have placed into that article are invalid, incorrect, mis-leading or just plain wrong then do please list them on the article's talk page. If you think the section and article structure is flawed or unusable then raise it at in detail at Wikitravel:Travellers' pub in a new section. Please do try and understand that Wikitravel is not here to list your business, it is here to assist travellers. As to to your condescending and arrogant tone, best you go put that where the sun does not shine, unless of course you have rays of sunshine emitting from the seat of your trousers. In which case take a photo of it. There are a bounty of places on the net that would welcome an upload of something like that. felix 09:15, 25 January 2011 (EST)

Images for deletion

Hi Felix,

The reason it's trickier to clean up VFDed images on shared if you tag them here is that by doing so, it creates a new image description page on :en, which has to be deleted separately from the image itself on shared — and there's no easy way to tell that there even is that additional step to do when working on shared. (Yes, the way image handling works is kind of a mess!) Since you already tagged the photos in question on shared, I went through and deleted the description pages on :en. — D. Guillaime 23:04, 12 February 2011 (EST)

Thanks for that D. Guillaime, I did not want to mess with it any more as I was not quite sure what action was appropriate. I notice some (regular) editors are listing images on the WT deletion page (as I did). Is that just old habits lingering or are they images of an older date source and therefore tagged differently.
  • Is there something else I should know so I do not create extra housekeeping work for others?
  • I note the images for deletion that you originally commented upon have sat on WT shared for a while now without action or comment. Is this just a workload issue or are they just left to sit for 14 days and deleted if there is no objection raised to the recommendation to delete. I think some of them are speedy delete candidates as they involve recognisable persons or fairly clear potential copyright violations.
  • Under what circumstances (if any) should an image be listed for deletion on the WT deletion page rather then the WT Shared deletion page?
I understand {{vfd}} tagging on WT is different to listing them on the WT deletion page.
  • Should I still list them on the WT deletion page but not {{vfd}} tag them on WT, rather tag them only in the WT Shared domain?
  • Which deletion list should they be detailed in WT, or WT Shared once they have been {{vfd}} tagged in the WT Shared image.
Sorry for all the questions but I would like to try and get this right, especially if I do a big group of them again.
I appreciate the guidance, thanks. felix 01:17, 13 February 2011 (EST)
The thing to check is whether the image is actually on the English WT site, or on shared. Shared is a recent invention, so images dating back to the first few years of the site will be on :en instead. (All new uploads to :en get deleted nowadays — somehow, people do continue to miss the huge warning on Special:Upload.) Ideally, all those old images would get moved to shared, but there's no automatic way to do it. You've probably noticed that Wrh2 has been working on some serious cleanup of those old :en-only images of late.
You can tell which is which because images from shared will have a banner right below the picture reading "This is a file from the Wikitravel Shared image repository." For example:
That tells you which site should handle a VFD (both the tag and the VFD-page entry, they always go together). Most of the time, it'll be the one on shared. However, it does really help if you also check to make sure no article on :en is using that image... unfortunately, the "what links here" function from the left sidebar doesn't work across sites.
As for the VFDs that stay open for more than 14 days, that's mostly for two reasons: it's easier to delete a bunch of stuff as a batch, and there are only a few users on shared that actually do clean up the VFDs. Usually someone will go through and clear it out every several weeks. It's probably about due for another run! — D. Guillaime 02:12, 13 February 2011 (EST)
Thanks for that, I was assuming something along those lines but was feeling a bit nervous that I might have things mixed up. I will make sue to avoid WT unless the image is clearly WT and not WT shared and now understand the {{vfd}}'s should not cross-over. Must be a grinding process moving them over. felix 03:58, 13 February 2011 (EST)


Daejeon

Thank you for your work on tidying up this article, especially filling in a lot of the transport details! I even went so far as to make a to-do list it was such a mess and it was a nice relief to see someone else working on the article!

I am however a bit concerned about your edits grabbing things direct off what reads like an official prop...tourism website. For strictly factual stuff like times, ph. numbers and prices this is great, but this type of inclusion can risk imposing a state POV instead of a traveller's POV. Whilst I agree with some of you edits, there are many that are of concern.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with South Korea, but the country's tourism departments have a distinct... "reputation" for trying to unphold an impossibly impeccable image. The net result is a lot of chest pounding and half-truths mixed with the occasional traces of BS. I feel a few of the edits have basically robbed the article of fairness. The former questioning POV in the intro, for example, me struck me as hauntingly accurate back when I first read it as opposed to the now manicured "company line" about science achievements. Reading between the lines it read to me at least as a warning to take anything you hear with a grain of salt: solid Korea advice.

I could drone on about a lot of stuff like policies (and I did before I realised how long this comment got), but really, it no longer is traveller-friendly. A lot of good on-the-ground correct stuff has been replaced with Wikipedia copypasta. Be fair <> NPOV.

Please do respond as I don't want this to look like blanket "article ownership" type bollocks and I really don't want to revert without discussing this, but its going to need it. The Get In and climate additions are mostly good, but the rest now have most things duplicated, sentences cut in half and by removing all praise but leaving criticism there remain some very, very harsh restaurant comments for places you may not have even eaten at! Grammar/punctuation edits have in many places completely changed the meaning of sentences - this is very clear sign some language was not simple enough, so changes must be made, but not the ones that were made. Furthermore with mass deletions and mutually exclusive additions being made in a single edit, I wouldn't know how to revert but keep your good remote research work on facts, figures addresses etc. I just feel really the article is plain incorrect now and not something I'd be pleased with as a traveller. When I came here I found the official city stuff misleading and technical to confusing at best, and having now seen the Wikipedia article, that little Wikipedia sources tag at the bottom of the article is scary, and not something that reflects well on the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Snave|Snave]] ([[User_talk:Snave|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Snave|contribs]])

Hi Snave I assure you I have come to the article with no bias or pre-conceptions other than that developed from finding some article formatting and content that was in conflict with WT guidelines.
I certainly follow what you are saying about the nationalistic line and the potential for jingoism, however Korea has special no franchise on that.
If you look over the pre-edit article you will note it contained a lot of links to Wikipedia in the copy. The WP links and citations were not appropriate, so I removed them, however the Wikipedia credit template is appropriate so I put it in. I do not understand your viewpoint that this reflects badly on the article, if it draws content from the WP article then there is no problem with that, at least WP is normally subject to some intensive scrutiny regarding factual content, however the WP editor responsible is now getting due and appropriate credit for their work transposed across to WT. It is not a slur on the article, rather it is a simple acknowledgement.
The article had some serious issues and still does, it was riddled with formatting problems and quite a lot of the content and style was contrary to WT manual of style guidelines.
It is hard to know where to start with it. The listings had some quite subjective POV, a lot promotional style language and a some rather blatant business touting. The external links used in the article were in the most part inappropriate to WT article guidelines. The official tourism URLs I inserted in their place are as per Wikitravel:External links policy, that is why I left a note to that effect in the edit notes. The external links also had formatting issues in that we do not front link in WT articles. Personally I think front linking works in a display sense but WT is a difficult medium and without some pretty ruthless application of the guidelines many articles quickly turn to mush, just look at some of the Indian articles for some stand out examples of this. The article also had a number of cite style external links, these are not required in a WT article in other than exceptional circumstances.
In regard to the Sleep-Eat-Drink listings I spent quite a while trying to get the listings in to a more neutral and objective state. They are really just meant to state the facts and no more. Also ideally they should conform to the listing mark up available for the purpose. That has not been used extensively in that article and in some cases some of the listing fields have been deleted or the information incorrectly placed.
WT policy does not encourage negative feedback in article content, I guess partly because it is so often such a subjective matter and also to control people who like to strike out in revenge over a perceived grievance or to injure a competitor. I normally go back and check several times as it is sometimes astounding what gets missed even after several trawls. Often of course some of the POV, superlatives and very generous embellishments get put straight back in by an enthusiastic business owner or traveller. What we endeavour to do here is flatten it all out again whilst trying not to completely rob it of any life. Generally if someone says it is the "best in the city" it is difficult to leave the comment in there unless the place has won a truck load of very obvious public acclaim and recognition. Good and bad comments are generally a pretty subjective thing, what one person considers to be luxury another person may be disgusted by, stylish, same thing, awful, by what standard is that measured. Of course this can be a bit ruthless sometimes, a hotel may actually have an oustanding and uniquely breathtaking vista of the worlds most beautiful valley viewed from a sumptuously furnished room with every modern convenience installed for the guest and set in a luxuriant garden full of birds and flowers but apparently so also do a lot of other places. The outcome when I come across this paradise is generally something somewhat more prosaic. Sometimes I can be a bit heavy handed sometimes probably not enough so, it can sometimes be a difficult balance to find without without deleting everything except 6 rooms, all with balconies, no dogs allowed.
I have had a quick look over the edits and I am a bit puzzled by some of your comments. I am wondering if you are thinking I have deleted content that I have only moved around in the article. Sometimes it is difficult to re-locate content when a couple of sentences have subtle changes and block of text has moved to another section.
In regards to incremental edits and that being easier to follow. I tend to try not to do too many of these and economise on an edit. I am not sure what WT policy is on this but Wikipedia is quite clear and plead the case for trying to be economical with an edit. This can help ease the server history burden, it also lightens the load in the Recentchanges listings for those of us who patrol recent edits. Have a look at the edit comparison and I think you will see what I mean. Perhaps the content you think is missing is still there.
I absolutely assure you there was nothing mean spirited in my edits and if I have undone something you have laboured over I am sorry but it has most likely only been done due to a perceived issue with WT guidelines or because the content appeared a little bewildering or convoluted. That is why very little was removed from the article in my edit other than some quite subjective listing content that I deleted or re-worded.
WT can be a bit of an organic process at times. Have a look over the edits and if something really irks you then describe it and say why you think it is in error. The links to the official tourism sites are just per WT standard guidelines, the removal of external links is per the same. The intro says things like "...aspires to...", ...municipal government dubs itself "a core city of research and development..". Seems to have a dose of objectivity about it. The article may have some scope for a History section and a Culture section. As it is I think it seems to be just sticking to the facts in the Understand section which is pretty much what a basic intro is meant to do. The information section was deleted was a non-standard section, the content is still there unless it was in conflict with WT guidelines.
I have tidied up some messy editing (mine) in the intro. I was not able to get onto the net after uploading those 2 edits I made previously as I live in a 3rd world country and have a matching net connection, sometimes it just goes off, sometimes for minutes sometimes all day. If it had not dropped out I would no doubt have cleaned things up earlier, there was some sloppiness in there with a repeat on the 5th largest city info. Sometimes I just get taken off air in the middle of things and often small mistakes only get noticed when I have already uploaded. Bit frustrating when the connection then goes off for an extended time. I do not see any major problems with the intro in its current form. Everything is capable of being improved though.
Please do detail your concerns a little, maybe I am missing something here. By all means go back in and edit, if you have good local knowledge then exploit it but do ensure that you write in an objective and neutral manner and have a good read of the Wikitravel:Manual of style. Also please understand I have not raked through the edit history to determine who did the external links, the front linking, the WP links and the rest of it and I do not even know if you were responsible. Certainly do not allow any thing that has happened to discourage you in any way, you have been doing a great job on the article and I can see that you have done a lot of work on it, and others in the region, so keep it up. Cheers -- felix 15:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)
My issue with the Wikipedia tagging is not to do with attributing deserved credit at all, but rather that the material copied from there has largely been used to replace or offset instead of add to and build upon what was already there. My fear is seeing Wikitravel articles clobbered with interwiki material. If the material is used to add things such as climate data or "drier" material such as the basis of a summarised history, then that is brilliant! But a travel-guide intro should in my eyes set an accurate impression of the city and quickly give travellers a primer. Compare for example, the star-rated Hiroshima article and its Wikipedia equivalent. The stated goals and ideal tone of the Wikipedia and Wikitravel projects are completely seperate and they are cross-linked on every relevant page for that very reason! Doubling up should be a last resort when there are such conflicting aims. Furthermore, the Daejeon Wikipedia article is hardly a strong article in itself, littered with [citation needed] tags and where those are missing typically sourced from official publications in a place where jingoism is commonplace. Some parts are just plain incorrect! As for the superfluous inline wikipedia links, those look like they were there from way back when the article was a mere outline, and I guess editors, myself included, were too lazy to remove them.
Other things with the intro I'd worry about are excessive references to the city's regional administrative breakdown. The 'gu' are administrative divisions and used in addresses, but otherwise can be unintentionally misleading. Yuseong-gu has been used to cover the area of the former city Yuseong (prior to being swallowed by the sprawl from Daejeon's Dunsan expansion) but also "the rest", such as the prison, army barracks, a bunch of mountains and a lot of vacant desertified land. When people refer to simply Daedeok, they mean the "silicon valley" (strictly an endonym, people in Seoul laugh at the reference as Korea deems some place in Gyeonggi Province to be that) not the admin region. When people refer to simply Yuseong, they mean the hotel agglomeration, not the admin region. An odder example, Daedoek "Techno Valley" is actually in Yuseong-gu according to Daum Maps. As for the removal of the extrenal link, the policy is not that links are intrinsically bad but that we want the info here, not there. The link right now is a stop-gap measure in my eyes as the info is not yet here, plus a handy guide for local events in English given there is no official equivalent (although it probably belongs down in Cope).
With regard to the Get In section, your flight route listings are great but I would tread with extreme care on the train issue. Trains other than the KTX and subway in Korea are mostly unreliable at best, and at worst, phantom services. Daejeon actually has something like 6 KORAIL stations in it, but some of them simply don't service passengers anymore -- a trap I have fallen for -- doesn't stop them from being listed online however. If I were reading an article that mentioned a train station at the airport (which incidently I never saw, nor saw any reference to at all when I was there) that one could walk to, I'd try walking there. The only practical way in and out is by bus, which was given a considerably smaller reference. This is the danger of padding articles with info sourced online without personal experience to back it up. Furthermore, both the bus and train sections are incomprehensible: most of those town names have been chopped in half, or refer to districts of Seoul. "Up town" and "Down town" ... is I guess this was from something in Konglish? Indecipherable to me at least! Your edits to getting in by train have done nought but change the meaning. There are two lines passing through the city, and by consolidating them in the text, it reads tidy but is incorrect. As there is more info there than less though, I can tidy these up though.
With regard to the Get around, I'd avoid references to lines 3-5. A Wikitraveller would only be interested in the lines that already exist or are marked on local publications. "Phantom" Line 2 is an important mention as it's designed to loop all the touristy sites and is still marked on city publications (despite being 8 years late ... and counting) but the other 3 aren't even mentioned on anything post-2002. I think one was actually just the Korail line. I'd say add them iff development is ever scheduled for the forseeable future. I'd also leave the inline bus map link in. It may be on the stands, but visitors may wish to print it off. The link was an official link not like one to a blog or anything, and I've seen plenty of precedent for this on the site. If theres any Wikitravel policy specifically against it though, please do inform.
With regard to the See and Do sections. Editors have carefully avoided structuring the article around the "eight sights of Daejeon". This is how the local city publications categorise things, but it is pretty much useless to a traveller and does not match Wikitravel's Manual of Style. It overlooks some of the most domestically famed sights, case in point the national cemetary. Five of the sights are hiking trails (do->hike). One is nowadays just a bunch of hotels (stay), a nearby footspa (do) and a highway median strip full of trees (irrelevant). Expo park is an amusement park (do), the final is a lake outside town the size of the city itself (see). All already existed in the article. None but the Expo park are businesses, so I'm actually curious now as to where the heck those phone numbers would lead. Ranger's offices I guess? Most of these places are not located in Yuseong-gu at all (which is largely empty space) so I'm not sure why that line was added, nor the reference to the long-closed Daejeon Zoo (since bought up by O-world). I'm also a bit unsure of why you stripped non-touty descriptions from a bunch of the other sites. They're not any more minor sites by any means, being both more central and on the domestic tourist trail than the five mountains are (hiking is quite literally everywhere in Korea). To me, a one line entry without a description screams "give a brief, fluidly written, but fair description of this place if you've been!".
With regard to the Eat, Drink and Stay listings. Again, my issue was not stripping away excessive praise or criticism but stripping away all of one from a couple of entries, taking the overall impression from the entry from "rather good" (thinking for a mmoment you wouldn't include an entry for a "rather bad" place now, but I wouldn't expect a casual visotr to think this way given commercial guides do so) to "pretty poor". Similarly, some of the seeming grammar edits have changed the meaning. The youth hostel has now been grouped with jjiljilbangs (sauna/public bathhouses) and the street food bit has had descriptions misleadingly changed to proper nouns. Again, these are things that require local knowledge, and not stuff I'd change on an article for a place which I am not familiar with.
I can very much see what you're getting at with your edits, so I'm sorry if this sounds over critical. It's just that the article now reads like the material the city gives out which is built around assumptions that you know what they know... not so handy for a visitor who just ends up there for a weekend and wants to know: what is the main tourist attraction here, and how the heck do I get there? My worry is the what-if scenario of an article that doesn't have anyone local or recently visited actively editing it. Edits based strictly on online sources could lead to serious problems on those articles. In my opinion, printing the article off in its current state would cause no end of confusion to an end user.
As for the splitting edits issue, when I looked I had not been able to find a policy so I just tended toward granular edits. Part of the basis of this ironically was because my internet connection can be spotty (Would you believe it! Best infrastructure in the world means bugger all when domestic connections are so heavily shared) so I save regularly to avoid having to copy, log back in and paste risking unintentionally losing a chunk of the edit thats outside the length of the edit window. Given your comment about Wikipedia's policy, I'll try to adopt a broader approach in future. -Snave
Hi Snave, I cannot see that any unique WT regionalising is justified in the article so the districts have been described as per the administrative structure of the city. I cannot understand your comment regarding "excessive references to the city's regional administrative breakdown" as the districts are described only as a simple bulleted list. As you note yourself, this is reflected in the addresses used in that city. I can certainly see no reason to take that list back out again. If you think some of the district divisions may be confusing to a traveller then, if it is the benefit of the traveller please do go ahead and detail and clarify that in the article.
As to the intro; "Daejeon municipal government dubs itself..." makes it quite clear this is something sourced from the municipal govt. As it is so defined it is hardly going to mislead anyone. "The city is often promoted as the Silicon Valley of Korea and is home of several private and public Research Institutes and Science parks" is similar, it does not say that it is, rather it says it is promoted as. "The research and development facilities of Samsung, LG, Korea University of Science and Technology and others are located within Daedeok Science Town in Yuseong-gu." is just a statement of fact, if you think that information is not accurate then go ahead edit to reflect the truth. Please however do not cite on the page, that sort of thing is best kept on the discussion page. I am struggling to see your issues with the intro, it either states matters of fact readily available in the public domain, or alternatively makes clear they are promotional concepts. I am not sure if you are suggesting I have moved across slabs of material from the companion WP article, where?. Indeed what my edit aimed to do was de-link with that article and get links and references to the WP out of the WT article. I am a little perplexed by your apparent suggestions that I have achieved the opposite.
In regard to the trains. If the routes are described as existing by the provider and the tourism sites then they should be listed in the WT article. However if they are not functioning then that should be described. Not mentioning them at all is only going to add to the confusion. Similarly if their service is erratic or has some other special feature to it then that can be detailed as well. Detail is not assisted simply by omission.
The bus links were removed as they both lead to 404 error pages, they were dead links.
In regard to Get in By bus http://www.daejeon.go.kr/language/english/residents/transportation/expressbuses/index.html describes 2 terminals, the article describes 3. This is in conflict.
In regard to Get around By bus the appropriate link appears to be http://www.daejeon.go.kr/language/english/residents/transportation/citybus/index.html That site has some information that may well improve the article, I note there is currently no mention of the colour coding system.
Do and See section: The 8 sights are described as 8 specific localities designated by the city government as scenic attractions, pretty clear what is going on there, they are listed and described, so are all the previous ones in the article and less info was duplicated. If you think that has put too much emphasis on hiking in those localities then give the traveller a reason to hike somewhere else. Again I can see no reason to remove that information, if indeed you are suggesting that. I am a little unsure if you are or just commenting that these are the sites promoted by the govt.
You mention the national cemetery, it is still listed, I did not remove anything unless it was duplicated. You mention that the 8 sights were already in the article, so what is your objection to the being listed together as a grouping as described by the local tourism authorities. BTY a See or Do attraction does not need to be a business to be listed here, a walking track is fine, and if the contact number is at a rangers office then all the better, I would certainly rather have a park ranger answer than a teenage girl at a local ice-cream concession, that is unless I was looking for an ice-cream or a date with a teenage girl.
The Uptown and Down town Rail references come from http://cheongju.airport.co.kr/doc/cheongju_eng/info/RE03010102.jsp this is the rail access details page from the official airport website. As we are only interested in the trains going to Daejeon I deleted the other destinations. In regard to the airport train station, no doubt you did not stumble upon it as it is 600m from the airport gate. You would have to already know it was there. There is a shuttlebus provided to the station. As Korean Rail describe Seodaejeon Station then I think it is OK to describe it in that way in the article. http://info.korail.com/2007/eng/ekr/ekr06000/w_ekr06100.jsp
With regard to the Eat, Drink and Stay listings, look over the histories, I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Maybe you are getting the edits confused with another article.
From your comments above:
  • "stripping away all of one from a couple of entries, taking the overall impression from the entry from "rather good" (thinking for a mmoment you wouldn't include an entry for a "rather bad" place now, but I wouldn't expect a casual visotr to think this way given commercial guides do so) to "pretty poor".
I am a little unsure of what you are saying here but I do not think I have created any problems with the Eat, Drink and Sleep listings, rather I have applied standard WT formatting to them.
The youth hostel has been grouped with jjiljilbangs (sauna/public bathhouses) because they are all Budget section listings.
As for the Eat listings 'Sung Sim Dang "Makes their own macaroons" should read make their own ... so I have corrected that now. You mention "street-food" edits. I changed "pancake with syrup and are delicious: contains nuts". to pancake filled with syrup and nuts. What on earth is the problem with that? I have also edited the content on 'tteokbokki' as it was very confusing in the original form.
I have read your entire response and then looked very carefully at the edit histories, you seem to be attributing things to my edits that are well outside the scope of the recent work I did on that article. I think you need to look at the edit histories.
Your insinuation that I have cut and pasted my edits from the Wikipedia article is plain rubbish. If you think this is the case then list that content here as it will come as a surprise to me. Please refrain from leaving misleading edit summaries in the future. I have now hard reverted a lot of your recent edit content as you have re-introduced front-linking from prior edits, re-linked to dead external links, undone WT formatting and reintroduced POV commentary despite my advise to you that it is contrary to WT guidelines. I have endeavoured to salvage some of your more useful recent edits but your recent editing behaviour has made that a quite time consuming task. If you choose to continue editing in this way you may find that your subsequent edits are treated with some suspicion. Please try and edit in a constructive way and remove yourself from a subjective viewpoint of the destination. Your enthusiasm and self professed "local knowledge" would be a lot more useful if applied to the article in only an objective and balanced manner.-- felix 17:39, 27 February 2011 (EST)

My contribution to Bromo

Dear Mr. Felix,

Very surprised I was to state that all the changed that I made in Bromo have been deleted.

I made a big effort to up to date the whole story about the Bromo.

It is clear that it useless to try to do something.

Thank you !

Walter Poupaert —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:User:Walterpoupaert, (Talk)|User:Walterpoupaert, (Talk)]] ([[User_talk:User:Walterpoupaert, (Talk)|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/User:Walterpoupaert, (Talk)|contribs]])

Hi Walter, no it is not useless at all. It is just a problem with fitting it into the Wikitravel formula. I did leave a fairly detailed explanation on your talk page earlier in a hope that something like these edit recent reverts would not arise. Please have a good look at the notes I left there for you. I considered going through all your recent edits and and making them 'fit' with the articles but then thought better of it. It really is better for you to re-work them yourself as that is an essential part of understanding how it all works here. Please do read those notes I left for you and ensure you understand the issues with multiple listings and similar. Perhaps just start with some contributions to one article so that other editors including myself can assist you a bit. If the same style and content problem is occurring across multiple articles it gets a bit overwhelming.
I am most certainly not trying to put you off editing here and I do encourage you to contribute to WT. I also think your potential contributions to the Bromo area could be really beneficial to the WT purpose. You are also welcome to list those of your services that fit with the WT guidelines. Perhaps start by reading the Wikitravel:Manual of style article and then go onto some of the other help articles that deal with specific things like listings for guides and accommodation providers and similar. You will find many links in the [Wikitravel:Manual of style|manual of style]] article and if you cannot find something just ask and someone will help.
Also please understand your work is stuil there in the histories, the text is help in the WT server histories so you can use it to re-work your contributions, it is not erased or anything like that.
If you have any specific questions other editors will help you through the first stages when you start out. If you post a question at Wikitravel:Travellers' pub other editors will see it and one or more are almost sure to assist. -- felix 07:24, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

Your continual undo's

Dear Mrs.Felix,

Although I read all about how to publish in Wikitravel and I did my best to help future tourist to Gunung Api Bromo, you persevere to delete my work. Are you able the give some explanation concerning your behaviour ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Walterpoupaert (talkcontribs)

Walter, it appears you are either not reading your Talk page or alternatively you are, but not understanding the information provided to you both there and in the recommended WT guidance articles. You have mentioned above that you have "read all about how to publish in Wikitravel". It appears that you may have read about it but have not quite understood yet.
  • Please read the guidelines again.
  • Please pay special attention to Wikitravel:Welcome, business owners, Wikitravel:External links, Wikitravel:Don't tout, Wikitravel:Manual of style
  • Please pay extra special attention to the section on tour listings in the Activity listings article.
  • Please limit your listing to just one article and one listing in that article. Unless you have another business that is clearly and definable a seperate entity and enterprise then DO NOT list in more than one article or more than one time in that article.
  • Please ensure your service or activity is listed in the appropriate article, that being the one where you business is located, or, where that business is operating. In your situation that appears to be EITHER Mount Bromo National Park, Malang or Kota Batu.
  • Please do not place content such as your email address, or " Do a trek to Volcanoes Bromo and Ijen : contact : walterpoupaert@gmail.com " (or similar) as you recently did in Bromo-Tengger-Semeru National Park‎, Malang, Surabaya, Probolinggo‎ and the Banyuwangi‎ articles, or use CAPITALS as you have on some occasions in those articles and previously in the Bogor article.
  • Please do not insert your email address into the prose sections at any time, please only display your email address in a suitable listing and when you do so please ensure that it is correctly formattted.
  • If you are providing an "information service" then attach that to your listing as I indicated to you in the example on your Talk page.
  • When you do insert content into an article try to ensure that the formatting style is appropriate as per the manual of style guidelines and that it matches the formatting and layout used in the article and specific section.
  • Do not revert the corrective edits that have been made to your contributions without knowing what you are doing as that sort of activity is likely to lead to further contributions being immediately deleted without further explanation and may well curtail any further attempts to assist you by myself or others here.
  • I recently re-edited the Mount Bromo National Park contributions you made as they were in confict with many established WT guidelines. As you appear to be editing and contributing in a good faith yet confused manner I attempted to further assist you by creating a listing for you. I am in two minds as to the appropriatness of you listing as a trek provider as you have not chosen to outline your services despite my appeals to you to do so. I did this as an act of good faith toward you and toward your efforts. However I must remind you that WT has firm policies regarding the need for any content to be of benefit to the traveller. WT is not a vehicle for the promotion of business activities unless it can be clearly seen that they are of benefit to the traveller rather than just being listed to promote a business enterprise.
  • Please ensure that you can comply with the listing requirements for a tour or trekking provider. As you removed the listing I created for you I will not reinstate it. If you subsequently change your mind and decide that you do wish to list in the article then please ensure that you fully comply with the detail below or that listing will be removed and will now not be be accommodated further until you sufficiently outline that your business and services comply with the WT listing guidelines.
  • I remind you again that as an accommodation provider you may wish to list in the Kota Batu article. If you wish to do this please do ensure you follow the guidelines for accommodation providers
  • Walter, please only use the English language on WT English language articles, bahasa Indonesian should not be used here, only English.
  • Also Walter, please sign your posts using ~~~~ to show who you are and when you left your post. Also I am not "Mrs Felix", I am not married to Mr Felix and I am not a woman. I do not mind if you wish to think of me as a woman but I thought that matter should be cleared up as you seem confused enough already without a gender mismatch topping it all off. Just Felix, Mr Felix, or Monsieur Felix is fine. Madame Felix is in another room quietly sleeping and I am certain she would not take a lot of interest in our discussion at this point.
Information on 'tour' listings
Tours can be listed on Wikitravel as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveler could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.
Here are a few guidelines to assist determining whether a tour should be listed in our guides:
  • The operator must have a "real world" office with a phone number and address where the tour is operated.
  • Tours should offer something as a supplement, rather than a replacement for Wikitravel guides. They should count as an activity available at a destination (e.g., a helicopter tour of a city, or a camel expedition into the Sahara).
  • If the tour operator is providing a booking service or general travel planning then it should not be listed.
  • Do not list resellers of tours, only list the actual tour operators.
  • Always list tour operators if they are requisite to visit a certain area. Examples include tours required by law (e.g., Panmunjeom) and tours required due to exceptional danger (e.g., war zones and extreme environments such as the Amazon, Antarctica, Space, etc).
In practice this policy disallows listing most audio tours, walking tours, and guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveler, and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikitravel article. If you have a question about whether a tour can be listed, or feel that an exception is warranted, please use the talk page of the appropriate article to discuss your concerns. -- felix 22:27, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

Wikitravel in the French language

Dear Mrs. Felix,

Je vais changer le continue de la page Wikitravel en langue française - à ce moment il n'y a rien - allez-vous encore une fois détruire mon travail ? -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Walterpoupaert (talkcontribs)

s'il vous plaît lire votre page de discussion -- felix 20:40, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

Back

Felix, I hope I am now back in action at Wikitravel again. I see your stamp all over various articles that mean a lot to me and a personal thank you for that. Really good work. --Burmesedays 10:39, 24 April 2011 (EDT)

Marrakech Terrorist Bombing

Hi Felix

I recently travelled to Marrakech and printed out a copy of the information posted on Wikitravel about this city which I found to be extremely helpful. I think it would be prudent to alert travellers at least in the "Stay safe" section to the recent terrorist bombing in the Marrakesh Cafe Argana (No.1 in lists of places to eat) in Djemaa El-Fna Square.

Vanessa

Marrakech Terrorist Bombing

Hi Felix

I recently travelled to Marrakech and printed out a copy of the information posted on Wikitravel about this city which I found to be extremely helpful. I think it would be prudent to alert travellers at least in the "Stay safe" section to the recent terrorist bombing in the Marrakesh Cafe Argana (No.1 in lists of places to eat) in Djemaa El-Fna Square. -- Vanessa

Hi Vanessa, Thank you for your thoughtful note here. It was on my list to look over the article and review it subsequent to hearing news of the bomb blast at Cafe Argana in Djemaa El-Fna Square. It certainly is a tragic incident.
Your concerns to inform readers of the Marrakech article are quite appropriate. I have since removed (temporary blinded) the listing for Cafe Argana. As I expect it will probably reopen I have not permanently deleted it from the article. It is just invisible for now. I have inserted an information box into the Eat section of the article providing some basic caution and safety advice. As per your suggestion I have put a more comprehensive information box in the Stay safe section giving detail of the blast and some further advice to travellers in regard to situational awareness and personal safety. It appears the bomber was quite conspicuous and the items responsible for the blast were quite voluminous. Hopefully heightened levels of awareness amongst the local population and visitors will reduce the likelihood of a successful further incident. Thank you for your interest and your contribution.
Do be aware that Wikitravel is an open medium and you can edit here yourself if you wish. Have a look at this welcome article for some information. -- felix 10:19, 30 April 2011 (EDT)

Consistent treatment of links

Why did you remove the link from the Puerto Escondido_Oaxaca page? Odyboards, Económica Rent-A-Car, Guadua and Agama Yoga Mexico have the same type of link. In addition, we host a page for Pascale restaurant as well as Surf School that should have info and a link included on this page to provide useful and easy to access resources for your visitors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.99.230.10 (talkcontribs)

75.99.230.10, I assume you are referring to this link http://www.puertorealestate.com/escondido-oasis.htm in the Puerto Escondido travel guide. If so it was removed per the Wikitravel policies on the listing of travel agencies and accommodation booking services.
The problem here is that in general Wikitravel policies do not allow real estate and rental agency listings to be listed. The only exception to this rule is for locations where rental properties are a common form of travel accommodation and the following requirements are met; (from the WT rental listings policy outline)
Please read the discussion page again. Apparently you missed that I raised it as a discussion already, gained consensus, no one objected or deleted it until you did. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.99.230.10 (talkcontribs) (inserted in Revision as of 19:36, 11 May 2011)
You placed a link to your vacation rental and travel agent business in your Gift shop listiing, I acknowledge that you are also running an interiors and gift shop business there but linking that gift shop listing to that travel agent and vacation rentals link creates some policy conflicts, hence it was removed. It was also a double listing of that link as you also had it attached to the Vacation rentals listing in the Sleep section. So a problem with 2 external link policies. Also I see no evidence of any consensus being reached on the discussion page regarding the listing of your vacation rental activities, only a couple of opinions building toward one and in any case that is a different matter to that pertaining to the removal of the link in the gift shop listing. Please do not assume we do not see this when looking over your edit history and previous listing content. I hope that in time you may grow to understand that editors here, including myself are "missing " a lot less than you think we are.felix 06:05, 12 May 2011 (EDT)
  • "Consensus must be achieved on the article's talk page that rental listings should be allowed. When trying to build consensus provide some evidence that rental properties are commonly used by travelers to the destination and that their addition will improve the article. Please do not argue the merits of any particular company, but instead focus on the value of such accommodation for travelers to the destination city/region."
Please read the discussion page again. Apparently you missed that I raised it as a discussion already, gained consensus, no one objected or deleted it until you did. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.99.230.10 (talkcontribs) (inserted in Revision as of 19:36, 11 May 2011)
I did not miss anything there, rather I think you have assumed a consensus to go ahead and list when there was not yet any such consensus apparent. Indeed I see no evidence of any such consensus being reached on the discussion page, only a couple of opinions building toward one. I also see no evidence provided by you that "rental properties are commonly used by travelers to the destination and that their addition will improve the article". It is not up to us to do this for you. It would assist if you did provide some account of the situation regarding holiday rentals in your region. As you are promoting your business with the assertion that your Vacation Rental business "Features the largest selection of apartments, condos and beach front homes for rent across all categories" then surely it should be within your capacity to provide a basic account of this, ie; how many other providers are there, are they located in Puerto Escondido or elsewhere and roughly what percentage of the visitor accommodation market is provided by vacation rentals as opposed to hotels/hostels/guesthouses and similar in you region. felix 06:05, 12 May 2011 (EDT)
There is a further problem with WT policy on the placing of external links into articles. WT policy states this: "What not to link to: Avoid linking to secondary sources - for example, avoid links to Hotel or travel booking services or aggregators".
I do appreciate that you are also running a gift shop and an interior design business from either the same or an adjoining premises. There is no problem with that (gift shop) being listed in the article. The problem is that the URL links to a travel agent and booking service. This is why (the link) was deleted. If you feel this is unfair then please raise the matter on the articles discussion page and seek some further input and clarity on this. I do note you reinstated the url after I deleted it and that it was subsequently deleted again by another WT editor. I encourage you not to relist that url again without prior discussion or it will no doubt be deleted immediately as has recently occurred.
I do sympathise and understand that you are operating multiple businesses at the premises, it is just the link that is the main issue here with the gift shop listing.
I note that you have previously listed Puerto Escondido Real Estate & Vacation Rentals and that the listing was also deleted. That listing will have been removed previously for the same reason/s as I gave above. I have now removed it again and placed the content on the article discussion page.
Please read the discussion page again. Apparently you missed that I raised it as a discussion already, gained consensus, no one objected or deleted it until you did. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:75.99.230.10]|75.99.230.10]]] ([[User_talk:75.99.230.10]|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/75.99.230.10]|contribs]]) (inserted in Revision as of 19:36, 11 May 2011)
Your actions in placing it back into the article are in error, hence I pulled it back out again. It remained (mildly) touting in character and description and represented a double listing of your business activities. Also, as mentioned above I see no evidence of any consensus being achieved in this matter at this point, although in time no doubt there is a good chance of that occurring, your becoming belligerent will certainly not speed the process up, indeed it is quite counterproductive and has no doubt considerable delayed that process. I think you are also creeping toward edit warring which is an activity that will win you no favour here. Please slow down and let the process work for you. felix 06:05, 12 May 2011 (EDT)
Your link, and the others you mention in the article for comparison to your own were also previously front linked, this was a further problem and that is why they were re-formatted and now display differently. They have remained in the article as they do not appear to have any conflict with WT policies, hence I just reformatted them and reconfigured the layout and content to suit.
I hope this helps explain. Do understand though that there is no problem with your other listing as long as it stays within the realm of being of assistance to the traveller. Interior design services are somewhat borderline, however a gift shop is certainly OK and I encourage you to concentrate your efforts on that listing in the article. If the Interior design aspect is dealt with in the description of the gift shop I do not see that being problematic as it assists in defining the focus and style of the gift shop. By all means raise the issue of describing the travel services and booking/real estate services on the articles discussion page. Perhaps seek comment on the appropriateness of mentioning that the gift shop also provides apartment finding and travel services. -- I hope this explains why your link was removed. -- felix 00:03, 11 May 2011 (EDT)
75.99.230.10, I understand from your comments above that you are also associated with Pascale Restaurant. I have recently copy edited that listing as it was a little touting in its style. Your listing was not alone in doing this in the article so they have all had a bit of a tone down in regard to our policies described in the WT guideline article titled Don't tout. I encourage you to visit the page titled Welcome, business owners and please do consider registering and establishing a user name and account here. Thanks for your enquiry. -- felix 00:03, 11 May 2011 (EDT)
Listing our page for Rentals was already added to the discussion page for consensus, for which there were no objections. Please read the discussion page from the top prior to removing. I am now aware of the policies regarding touting, external links and adding multiple links which I will honor .—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.99.230.10 (talkcontribs)
IP 75.99.230.10 (Puerto Escondido Real Estate & Vacation Rentals) I did of course read the history. However due to the issues surrounding your listing I have again removed it from the article and it remains as is on the article discussion page. Perhaps you could outline your understanding of the Wikitravel policies and guidelines on that discussion page, it may assist in building some understanding and confidence as to your intent regarding future contributions. Thank you for your comments. Lets see what other editors have to say about this. If that listing is detouted and there are no objections from other editors then I will support it going back in. It needs to lose the touty style though. -- felix 20:49, 11 May 2011 (EDT)
Obviously your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. Read it again and you will see my understanding of the policies. By de-touted, do you mean that it is not allowed to include a link to the website as a useful resource for visitors. The discussion was started, consensus was gained and the link was part of the article for 10 days with no objections from anyone but yourself. Here's the affirmative- I think the listing is fine, --ClausHansen 17:19, 1 May 2011 (EDT) So why don't you put the link back and see what other editors say about this.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.99.230.10 (talkcontribs) (19:36, 11 May 2011"')
Please be a little more respectful and read the ongoing discussion on the "Talk" page for Puerto Escondido. As for consistent treatment of links, if you see a problem with other links, go ahead and take appropriate action such as deleting the links or listings and stating why in the editing "Summary," but remember that this site does not exist for the purpose of promoting your business or anyone else's, but to benefit travelers, so arguing that people are being unfair to you because they have yet to delete other questionable listings or links is not going to get you a lot of friends here. And keep in mind when I say all of this, that I have tended to find your listing fairly acceptable. Ikan Kekek 19:23, 11 May 2011 (EDT)
IP 75.99.230.10, My reading comprehension is quite fine. I assume you are referring to the comments; "I think the listing is fine", by --User:ClausHansen at 17:19, 1 May 2011. This is a comment by another established and well recognised editor, not a consensus. I have already pointed out in some detail the issues surrounding your 3 listings. I have also suggested that you read several of the policy and guideline articles that pertain to both your activities here on Wikitravel and the content and style of your listings. You mention that consensus was arrived at no objection. Well there is now, both to your front linking, linking to a travel or tour booking site and linking to a holiday accommodation booker without achieving consensus on the article discussion page first. A comment by one editor saying they do not see a problem with your listing is not a consensus, it is an opinion given as part of a consensus building process. I also note that the general commentary was leaning toward discussion at the time you relisted. When you re-listed your content remained in breach of several WT policies, that is why I moved it across to the article discussion page. Under many similar circumstances the content would have been deleted entirely. You are rather considerably confused in your understanding of the goodwill extended toward you by several editors who have been involved in this matter. Frankly I am now having lingering doubts as to the value of my actions, I am now wondering if perhaps I should have just deleted your listings in entirety as per their breaching of WT policies.
The issues with your edits are:
  • Use of a touting style and promotional style language that embellishes the basic information in a manner that does not serve the interests of the traveller. You have used a touting style in three separate listings in this article to date
  • Front linking of your URL
  • Using a URL that links your Gift shop listing to a travel booking, holiday accommodation booking service and a travel agency
  • Listing more than one (1) time. http://puertorealestate.com/ describes 3-4 business activities (vacation accom bookings, travel agent, interiors, gift shop), you have sought to (separately) list more than one (1) of these in the article.
Frankly I find your website much better than many others I come across and your business activities appear to be entirely legitimate and sincere. I have sought to assist you in keeping your activities listed here and I do appreciate that you are struggling to understand the policies and guidelines, however becoming belligerent will not assist. Indeed you may find that the existing support you have been receiving from myself and several other editors may soon evaporate and your listing/s may be deleted. I removed your Vacation booking listing so that the matter could be correctly and fully resolved rather than having an ad-hoc situation continue. Left as it was it was quite likely an other editor may deleted it and if they did so their action would be supported by the WT guidelines and policies as outlined above. You currently still have one listing for your business in that article. Please read the guideline articles and make a more focussed contribution so that your listings can be sorted out and your business appropriately listed in the article. I suggest that further discussion on this matter be focussed upon you listings and that would best be described on the Puerto Escondido article Talk page. I might add I am not in any great disagreement to you having either the gift shop enterprise or Puerto Escondido Real Estate & Vacation Rentals listed in the article. However to do this you must drop the touting and promotional language, pay close attention to the External links policies and seek consensus to list as an apartment/vacation rental services provider in the article. We also need to seek agreement that it is acceptable for you to have two separate listings in the article for your enterprise. None of this is yet determined. -- Thank you -- felix 06:05, 12 May 2011 (EDT)
1. I don't see where I have been belligerent. Frustrated and confused by some of the policies maybe. But belligerence is not my intention. Please accept my apologies, however, for any perceived offense. 2. I was unfamiliar with what was meant by touting. I see now what is meant by that as far as "largest" and "luxurious splendor". It was an effort to be descriptive in that we have inexpensive and affordable as well as high end luxury. I have no objections to 'toning' down the language. 3. The email address listed is incorrectly spelled and I would prefer to keep the email address off of the internet to prevent email spammers from harvesting it. 4. How long does the 'consensus' process go on. 1 day, 1 week, 1 month? No one commented for 10 days and this may be an article with little traffic or interest. Sounds like the process is a little subjective. That said, I think it's clear that the way you have updated the listing now adheres to the WT policies. So where do we go from here? When does the link get restored? Who decides this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:75.99.230.10]|75.99.230.10]]] ([[User_talk:75.99.230.10]|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/75.99.230.10]|contribs]]) (12 May 2011"')
OK your email address has now been removed from the proposed Puerto Escondido Real Estate & Vacation Rentals and the Puerto Escondido Oasis listing upon your request and that has been noted on the articles Discussion page. Sorry I dropped the -e- off your email address but I was in a bit of a hurry, I did notice it but then forgot to type it in. I did also notice that you used an image display for those details on your website, sorting out that sort of thing is one of small benefits of all this going onto the discussion page I suppose. I cannot of course give any guarantees that someone else will not put it in there at some time in the future.
Just be patient with the process. It normally takes around 24 hr or so for regular editors to look over something like this and maybe longer if they are busy or do not notice it. You must bear in mind we all have other things to do most days and also we are in many different times zones. I imagine both Ikan Kekek and Ryan will revisit that page soon. ClausHansen may look in as well, it depends on if they have watch listed the page or not and I imagine they may have done that.
If you want some wider opinion on this issue then I suggest you put a very brief note on the Travellers' pub page with a link to Talk:Puerto Escondido and seek some input from other editors on the matter.You could also put a brief prompt on each of those editors Talk pages if you wanted to and ask them to look it all over and vote on it if they think appropriate at this time. Don't forget to sign your posts so we know who you are. Type ~~~~ and it will fill in on it's own when you save your edit. Alternatively click on Sign your name: ~~~~ (on talk pages only) which appears just under the Edit Summary pane on the edit page. If you wish to put in a link to that Talk page then type this: [[Talk:Puerto Escondido#Proposed vote on listing of rental property bookers|Puerto Escondido—Proposed vote on listing rental property bookers]] into your post and it will display like this:Puerto Escondido—Proposed vote on listing rental property bookers. It will be decided by consensus amongst established and experienced WT editors, don't worry all those who have been involved in commenting on this to date are all experience editors here. We are not just making it up as we go along.-- felix 13:53, 12 May 2011 (EDT)
Thank you for all of the above and compliments about our site. Honestly, I'm pretty exhausted from all of this back and forth so i'll leave it be and assume all is inline with policy now and that you or whomever decides to will re-include the listing at some point in the near future. And if not, oh well - I've at least learned something... 75.99.230.10 14:26, 12 May 2011 (EDT)

Alana's california Dreaming

I am trying to add a listing in Ubud, Indonesia for a unique ice cream shop called "Alana's california Dreaming". After saving the listing on 2 occasions, it disappears after a short period. Is there a reason why this listing is not being accepted??

Thanks,

Doug Snyder DSnyder15@gmail.com

Here is the listing:

Alana's California Dreaming, Jl. Pengosekan, Ubud, Bali (next to Taco Casa), ☎ 62 85792021920. 10AM to 9PM daily. California style ice cream shop. Everything is Californian...Ice Cream and product quality, serving size (120 grams - bigger than a baseball), Milkshakes made with real ice cream, fresh Smoothies made with ice cream or frozen yogurt and real berries, music and atmosphere/decor. Californian comfort food to remind you of home. Oh yea...and Popcorn too!!! USD $2.00. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.165.150.68 (talkcontribs)

Hi Doug, the problem is one of both style and formatting. Wiktravel has some set policies and guidelines concerning both style and formatting and your listing is just a bit too far out of the envelope. The Ubud article seems to be needing a lot of attention recently, your own recent transgressions are only one of several in that article recently, so you are not alone. Please do not be overly discouraged by the listing being deleted. Just go ahead and familiarise yourself with the standard policies and guidelines and then re-list it. Start with a read of the manual of style and have a look over the other listings in the Ubud travel guide and examine their style and formatting of things like prices US$XX, telephone numbers, appropriate capitalisation, (normally on the first word of a sentence or a proper noun only) and also have a read of Don't tout and Words to avoid and please do not use !!! marks or ... or use capitalisation for word emphasis. Also "Californian comfort food to remind you of home." is a suitable comment to make to a Californian, however there are not a lot of Californians in Bali so lets not start just addressing Americans or travellers from California in the article. As some editors here on Wikitravel have said in other similar situations; "America is not the world". Travellers come from all over the place. It will also assist if you use the standard formatting mark-up. You can access that by clicking on the formatting for
Restaurants: * <eat name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="" hours="" price=""></eat>
This is available just below the edit summary field on an edit page for your enquiry and please do re-write it bearing in mind to avoid any coloured or embellishing language, just stick with the facts. Also please ensure you do not use a facebook.com URL again as you did in a previous version of your contribution. Facebook URLs are not acceptable here. Thanks for your enquiry -- felix 17:44, 12 May 2011 (EDT)

Singapore or wikitravel

Hi Felix

Under DRINKS i would like to feature my bars - acid bar, alleybar, outdoors - as we are located along Emerald Hill and i believe it will be interesting for tourists to experience our watering holes in conservation buildings from the pre-war era. Plus we are located on Orchard Road so it makes double sense.

under FINE DINING I would like to feature my restaurant - Novus, located at the National Museum of Singapore on Stamford Road. Our Chef, Stephan Zoisl, just came back from a training stint at the Fat Duck in London...cooking his brand of modern European Cuisine.

Let me know how we can proceed?

Much appreciated. Thanks!

Daryll John Kaan Business Development Manager

Hi Daryl, I am really sorry but I have to go to the airport shortly and will be out of circulation for a while.
I can give you a couple of starting points though.
  • 1. Really important not to put your listings into the main Singapore article as it has already been divided into districts. You will need to select the correct district to match the address and then you must only list there, and must only list one time.
  • 2. You have 2 business operations, it appears they are separate business enterprises with distinctly different activities, marketing and staff. If so the issue of you owning or controlling them should not be of any apparent concern to WT policies. However if they share a website, phone numbers or similar, or appear to be under a similar business 'umbrella' then it may get a little more problematic, however this is not a certainty, just a concern in terms of our policies to only list once. Frankly from reading your information above this does not seem to be of concern in your case.
  • 3. Register as a business owner and state your activities, this will help us understand who you are and may assist in protecting your own edits to your own business listings should someone take it upon themselves to be mischievous with them at any time.
  • 4. Have a really good read of of the article on how to avoid using touting language in your listings and so ensure that they do not need heavy modification of worse still get deleted by an editor.
  • 5. Also read the Wikitravel article on words to avoid so as to ensure there are no problems with your choice of descriptive words. Some business owners get a bit enthusiastic with their use of language and become either rather florid or adopt a promotional style. Here at WT we strive to keep it neutral and objective. It is especially important to do this when writing up your own listing.
  • 6. Have a close look at the manual of style to ensure your get the details right. Also have a look over the article you are listing in for a guideline to formatting, ie; +65 XXXX XXXX, US$, 9AM, 9:30PM-10PM, $ (for SGD).
Quickly looking at Singapore/Orchard just now I note the formatting style is not as per guidelines but it is at least reasonably consistent across the article , just mimic that same style so that you fit with the article.
Use the suitable standard formatting appropriate to the listing:
* <drink name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="" hours="" price=""></drink>
* <eat name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="" hours="" price=""></eat>
If I have a chance I will monitor your progress. It may assist you if having established a user account you then use your own talk page as a sandbox to try out your edits while you get them right. If you need some help or an opinion on their appropriatness to upload then seek and opinion from an established editor at the Wikitravel:Travellers' pub and hopefully someone will look it over for you. However if you feel OK with it just put them in the appropriate section of the appropriate article and if there is a problem the new listings will no doubt get some attention.
Good luck with it all and welcome to Wikitravel. I hope the new business endeavours are a big success.--felix 05:38, 16 May 2011 (EDT)

Kuta (Lombok)

Felix, what have you done to Kuta (Lombok)? I will leave you to fix it :).--Burmesedays 23:11, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

Yes, I inadvertently killed it. I agree that edit gave rather undue prominence to the Novotel property. Truth is I foolishly installed a new version of firefox (5.0) and it is quite unstable; frequently locking up and it sometimes does strange and unexpected things when you click on a page or try to edit, including completely locking up and requiring a force quit of the application. Somehow I deleted the whole page and whilst pasting the original content back in it unexpectedly uploaded the content even whilst the app was apparently frozen...very untidy. Then I could not get a page to load for a while. It took me a few minutes to understand what had happened. I think the article is fixed now. I am going to revert my new firefox install back to the earlier version of firefox. It is an interesting new interface, but clearly quite unstable on my mac. By the way I have a new one now as my old 17" died. I purchased a nice new Macbook Pro 2.2 15" three days ago. Other for the lousy firefox it is a wonderful thing. I am going to re-install an earlier version until they get this new browser version stabilised. I am otherwise a very happy camper and very pleased with my new laptop. Thanks for the note on the lousy edit. I saw my little red notification light blinking as I was trying to fix the bad edit. I wondered who it might be. Nice to see you on line. All your regular articles are much benefited by your return. -- felix 23:29, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

Senggigi

Mostly thanks to your excellent work I have bumped Senggigi up to guide status. I did give it a bit of style makeover first though, so please don't be surprised by that. One request - in the Buy section could you just pen a couple of sentences about each of Senggigi Square and Senggigi Plaza? --Burmesedays 10:58, 9 July 2011 (EDT)

madam beergarden

hello felix505 i do not really understand why you have edited our company listings regarding madam beergarden UNDER CONSTRUCTION as the company is opened and has been for around 4 months with me as the owner... the name is madam beergarden UNDER CONSTRUCTION so please put it back on thank you very much

Could you give me the locality please, (where is your beer garden- which article). Should I understand that the "UNDER CONSTRUCTION" is part of the trading name?
If so there is no particular problem in listing it as Madam beergarden under construction but it cannot be displayed in capitals and will need a note to clarify it is the trading name. However, if your establishment is still "under construction" then please wait until the construction is finished and then list it. If it were a hotel then it could be argued that it should be listed whilst under construction, however a beer garden does not normally take advance bookings so that provision is not appropriate.
Please clarify and provide further detail. Thank you -- felix 04:25, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
I found your previous listing in the Siem Reap article and have reinstated it, with "Under Construction" incorporated into the name field and with a note explaining that it is part of the name. The capitalisation has been removed, as has the comment that it is "affordable" as that is too subjective to use as a price qualification. BTY, how you could not understand that the meaning of your trading name is rather confusing remains a mystery to me. -- felix 05:23, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

Bangkok

I'm not really happy with this [12] update. Making such a drastic change definitely warrants some communication first on the Talk:Bangkok page. The change does not just apply to the Bangkok page, but also to all of its districts (of which three are star-approved) and possibly all Thailand pages. First the styles on all these pages were consistent, but now its completely different on the Bangkok page. I am not sure if all this work is justified or necessary. --globe-trotter 11:26, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

What is so inconsistent? I just looked over that recent edit and it is all standard formatting, there are no questionable changes to content and the edit has merely applied article wide consistency in style. If you believe there is some conflict with MoS then please outline it here as I am a little perplexed and surprised by your comments. Thai articles have had this sort of style formatting applied to them consistently, it is hardly a daring new thing. If you don't like the AM/PM formatting then change it to 24hr as per the recent discussions on that subject, you will have my support in doing so. However as the article already appeared to have AM/PM established I applied it across the article. If it is the US/UK spelling chestnut irking you I note that some casual Thai editor recently questioned the use of US En in the article in their edit notes, it was the mix of previous spelling convention that triggered my review. Thailand has never been a US colony, in fact it has never been a colony at all. It is better that the article has one consistent style of English through out rather than a mix. If this is the issue then please outline why Bangkok or any part of Thailand should be subject to US style English language conventions. km (mi) numbers expessed as X,XXX and phone number expressed as +XX XX XXXX XXXX is pretty standard stuff. Whats up, my editing Thai articles is not exactly a new thing, I am a frequent editor and I patrol many of them? -- felix 12:42, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
Yes it's mostly about the use of American or British English. While both are used in Thailand and there is no real standard, American English seems more common to me (just look at most shop or institute names, such as MBK Center, Siam Center, Bangkok International Dental Center, etc). It does seem that the private sector uses American English more than the public sector, where British English is common as well. The articles were consistently written in American English, except for names of listings and public transport stops, where I applied the name that the listings call themselves — so I used Siam Center because the store itself calls it "Siam Center" and I used "MRT Thailand Cultural Centre" because that's what's shown on the signs of that metro stop. I am not necessarily against a full switch to British English, although it might be a bit odd, but if done, it must be applied consistently to the Bangkok article and all its subsequent district pages — thus, a lot of work will be involved and I'm not sure if it's worth the effort.
I do see that the phone numbers could be improved, but the MoS suggests it should be follow this format: +66 2 258-5018. But again, there is no uniform way of writing down phone numbers in Thailand. The phone numbers were consistent written among all Bangkok pages in this format before: +66-2-258-5018. But now the district articles use a different format than the main article. A lot of work would be involved in changing them all, and again I am not really sure if it's worth the effort as they were already consistent before. Three district pages are a star, and thus community approved, so if the phone numbers were a problem, it should have come up in at least one of these three star nominations. --globe-trotter 13:38, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
  • Overlapping edits;
OK globe-trotter, I see now that the non-standard telephone formatting with dashes all over the place has been used consistently throughout the Bangkok sub-articles. In the interests of conformity with those sub-articles there may be some merit in going back to the previous +XX-XX-XXX-XXX it seem you have been using there. I do understand that you do an enormous amount of work on those Bangkok articles so I do understand you feeling unsettled. I do wonder why you used that formatting though. My understanding is that we have come to some kind of wobbly consensus regarding AM/PM vs 24hr. Personally I prefer 24hr but if an article is well established using AM/PM I am not going to change it myself, or from 24hr to AM/PM.
My understanding of WT style for lengths is:
Always abbreviate units. Do not put periods (full stops) after units.
  • kilometer = km
  • meter = m
  • centimeter = cm
  • millimeter = mm
Note: Never capitalize the first letter.:::*mile = mi
  • yard = yd
  • foot = ft
  • inch = in
I also understand that a coma is to be used for numbers greater than 999, ie 1,000, 10,000. I do note however that there are mixed messages scattered throughput the MoS articles in regard to that issue. I have been using X,XXX consistently in all the articles I have been editing and I do not recall any previous conflicts in that regard, I would suppose that most other editors just appreciate seeing one single style applied across an article, frankly I am indifferent as to XXXX or X,XXX, but it does need to be one or the other, not both. When issues of larger numbers come into play, such as Rp 100,000 then I think the virtues of the comma become clearer, ie. Rp 100000 is not a good typographical display when compared with Rp 100,000. For the benefit of consistency I therefore use the X,XXX style. Using a dash (-) instead of "to" is pretty standard WT formatting, ie 09:00-18:00 or 9AM-6:30PM, rather than 9:00AM to 6:30PM and $18-20, rather than "from S18.00 through to $20.00 or similar.
As for the use of US spelling, well the language is English, the people of the US just have a version of it that they have wandered off with. I can see no reason to apply that version or dialect to anywhere other than the US, it dependancies and colonies. If you look through some of my edits you may note that I frequently standardise articles to a single version of the English Language. If it is an article that has a justified US EN content I leave it as such and standardize it. However I especially draw the line at Indian articles, Australian, New Zealand and many others where I find US spelling applied by casual editors. As is sometimes mentioned here on WT, America is not the world, there is English language that does not require 'correcting to US spelling and there are many other currencies that use the $ symbol. I see no reason Thailand needs US English spelling and I note that there are at least two recent (IP) comments drawing attention to that in a quick look over the [[Bangkok}} edit histories. I am sorry if my edits alarmed you, they were certainly not intended to. I do not see any reason to have outlined the changes on the article discussion page as they are minor edits and well within the scope of daily patrolling and maintenance edits. I am not sure what should be done about the phone numbers, the most pragmatic solution would be to just change them back to +66-8-XXXX-XXXX as I doubt would not have assaulted them in such a way had I realised that all the sub-articles had a clear and well maintained thematic style. I would discourage you though from applying that tel number style to any other articles or article clusters. I only applied the changes to the tel number formatting as I was working through the whole article applying a standard theme to other details (such as times and lengths). It is too late in the night for me to go back and change the tel numbers now. If you do so youself you will hear no protests from me and unless someone else wants to express an opinion contrary regarding that tel number formatting then I think you should assume you have a somewhat reserved but supportive consensus to change them back yourself if you wish to. It was one of those edits that started out addressing one or two minor issues and snowballed into a quest for wider article consistency. I certainly hope I have neither offended or upset you -- felix 13:45, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
Hi again globe-trotter, I am in no particular disagreement with you, and I take your point onboard regarding the 'commercial' use of "Centre". Frankly I think it is marketing mimicry that drives that though and I do not see any reason to follow that lead article wide. I think you are correct though that we should not change the commercial name of an enterprise that has used that spelling. I have noted that conflict often pops up in some articles, especially if there is an American commercial interest or marketing style applied to a commercial endeavor. I recall that for example Siam Centre uses that spelling, as do some others in Bangkok/Thailand and other places in Asia. Siam Centre was established in 1976 or there abouts and that has no doubt also established a local mimicry use pattern. Frankly I think many see it as an imposition of Americentric commercial stylism, others probably do not even notice or even care if they did. Unless there is a significant input from other editors in this regard then perhaps you should take the lead in applying an appropriate style as you are very active on these articles. -- 14:02, 13 August 2011 (EDT)felix
I have now applied (hopefully thoroughly) Centre and Center where appropriate and as I checked against the websites of those concerned I took the opportunity to put in URL links in the article if they were missing. I hope this clears up some of the awkwardness in consistency arising from the recent edits. As mentioned above, the EN language use is a mixed bag so possibly some effort should be made to ensure commercial, govt and other naming conventions are just applied verbatim in the articles. I have also reverted the tel number prefix formatting to match the sub-articles. I hope this assists.-- felix 14:42, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
Absolutely no hard feelings from my side, I have big respect for the efforts you've done to achieve site-wide consistency. The biggest problem I think there is, is that there is no agreed way to write these things in Thailand. So I think the best way to go forward is to apply the rules as established in the MoS, as these formats are established by the community. The phone numbers will need to be changed, and I will also change the measurements and time format (to 24hr) at some point. But these will take time as a lot of work is involved. I am still not sure about British or American English as the Wikitravel:Spelling article seems to suggest American English should be used:
"If the destination has no history of using English and no clear preference for the variety to use, we prefer American English spelling. This isn't because American English is somehow better or to stomp on the rights, heritage, and cultures of other English-speaking countries. We just need to pick one default spelling style for consistency. Below are reference guides for American spelling". I have started a policy discussion about this at Wikitravel talk:Spelling, so we could hopefully get site-wide consensus on which English variety to use where. --globe-trotter 15:17, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
I think that is a really good idea to change over to the 24hr time format for the Thailand articles. I appreciate there is some lack of certain clarity on the matter but personally I think it makes more sense for the international community to use the 24hr format, AM/PM just bewilders some people and it also looks rather clunky typographically. You are right, it will take a bit of effort to change the full article set discussed above and it is best done in a reasonably clean swoop otherwise any new contributions that come in will start going off on style tangents. If you want to do it then let me know and depending upon my commitments I will assist. As for the phone numbers I think it is a good idea to change them, but again, in well developed articles with well resolved listings that can end up being a lot of work.
Good move raising the EN language issues at Wikitravel:Spelling, I hope it gets some attention as this matter is far less than clear for many of the regions. I thought this comment was good..."So how's this for a shot at a policy: Spelling should ideally conform to that used in the country in question. Very simple and leaves room for "corrections" if somebody writes in a different flavor of English. Jpatokal 04:52, 9 May 2004 (EDT)". I sometimes get a bit confused with WP policy and WT policy. I was thinking we used the same policy here...following historical/socio-political lineage, ie India UK EN, Phillipines US EN, places like Thailand and Indonesia (confusing), Vietnam...well as I once mentioned in an edit note, the US lost the war so why should we impose US EN, as for Iran, well I just change any US EN edit to UK EN on the basis that there seems to be an abundantly clear consensus in Iran that they do not accept US cultural Imperialism and have made that fairly clear since they got rid of the Shar. I think Australians and new Zealanders might get a bit irritable if we started using US EN in those articles, as for India, well I edit several of those articles quite frequently and I think changing the spelling could provoke some interesting input into the Talk pages. I hope your prompting on the Wikitravel talk:Spelling page gives rise to some solutions but the harder I look at the issue with the Thai articles the harder it appears to resolve other than to apply an approach such as I did in my last edit there. As you have very aptly noted, the commercial sector seems to lean in one direction whilst the more formal govt and some other institutions seem to lean toward UK EN spelling. I applied UK EN to prose and individual listings as per commercial naming. Any attempt by us to standardise will further than that will no doubt only ensure that we always place ourselves in conflict with at least one of the policy aspects. Indonesia feels much the same at times, especially due to the less than subtle influences of the US during the Suharto era. Nearby Malaysia is much clearer and far less ambiguous. Indonesians often study in the US and they often tend to speak and write accordingly, others have studied or worked in the Nederlands, Singapore, Malaysia and Australia and have clear UK EN grounding. With spoken English it often depends on the films people have been watching or the people they have been listening to. With the exception of American Samoa and other US pacific territories, Phillipines and the Hawaiian islands I see the western Pacific, Australiasia and Asia as being under a clear influence of UK EN with a few interesting confusions such as Korea thrown in just to make sure the point remains well short of absolutes. -- felix 18:54, 13 August 2011 (EDT)

Amsterdam

I just notice this edit [13]. But this listing is actually not in Amsterdam/Old Centre, but in Amsterdam/Jordaan :-) --globe-trotter 14:39, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

Hi Globetrotter, I am too muddleheaded at the moment to work out which part of that edit you mean but maybe it is 'Pura'. If I have reinstated something to the article that you correctly deleted at some previous time then please accept my apologies and thank you for correcting any error. If I re-instated something then I probably assumed it had been deleted by someone in mischief rather than by yourself. Cheers--felix 19:32, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

new to Wikitravel

Hi Felix, thanks for the pointers and I am new to Wikitravel so the MoS is definitely helpful. Understood about the links and the telephone numbers requiring country codes -- do let me know if there's anything else in particular that needs fixing up.Digitalstoryteller.me 09:17, 19 October 2011 (EDT)

Buenos Aires

Hi Felix,

i think the BA guys are marketing guys that do SEO and therefore i would encourage you to keep reverting them until the start to communicate. Thank you for your efforts, jan 09:53, 4 November 2011 (EDT).

Sounds sensible..will do. -- felix 14:37, 4 November 2011 (EDT)

WikiTravel Gili Air

Felix it would appear that you have been deleting a pic that I have been posting o in the article I have placed on WikiTravel for Rumah Si Pitung at least I think it was you as I am sure I have traced the edit back to you ? Is there any particular reason you keep editing this pic out as I did cut it back to thumbnail size and right postponed it what's going on there man it's very annoying and unless I am breaching some guideline I haven't read yet I think it's very unfair of you.

Although the picture does appear on another website the picture is mine and I did take the picture when I was do some work on the bungalow for my friend who owns it in fact most of the pictures on his site and on trip advisor are my photos.

I would like to repost the pic without it being removed help me out here please Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bima (talkcontribs)

Hi Bima, Sorry about the image going again. It is certainly not a problem with just your individual image. I did leave a note in the edit comments in the hope that you would understand. Here at Wikitravel we only place images relating to individual listings (hotels, restaurants and similar) if they are particulaly noteworthy. For example, the Raffles hotel in Singapore is a noteworthy historical building and well as being an iconic hotel. However somewhere like the Ibis Aracadia at Sarinah, or the prestigious Mandarin Oriental in Jakarta is not, therefore if someone puts a foto of a hotel into an article it will be removed. If someone puts a foto of an anonymous losman into the Indonesia country level article to show what a typical Indonesian losman might look like then that might be appropriate, hard to decide though what would truly be a representational foto that properly described a losman, as you know they are similar, yet all different. The short answer is no your foto cannot go in there, not this particular foto but any foto. If Gili Air had any really unusual accommodation, for example many of the hotels on the island provided rooms in tree houses, then the policy would be examined and a determination made if it was felt the article on the destination required this information in the form of a foto image. So there are occasional exceptions, however Rumah Si Pitung does not appear to be unique in any way that would justify an exception to the standard policies. Of course you must understand that if we did allow fotos in the article it would soon fill up with multiple images of alternative suppliers. Best for you to put these photos onto an official Hotel website and then use the url field in the listing to link to that. The hotel website can then list all the contact details, facilities, photos and any promotional material that you wish. I hope this helps explain. If you would like to have a look at the policies in detail then have a look here Image policy
  • Photos of businesses. As a general rule, photos of individual businesses, especially those seen to be promotional, will be deleted. Exceptions include images that are meant to be illustrative of the type of business establishment in a certain region, or those of exceptionally famous establishments. See also the article that describes images under the don't tout policies.
I do hope everythig goes well with the venture, you are most welcome to list here and most welcome to make other contributions to the articles if you think your local knowledge of the destination can improve the article. Do understand though, all content must be suitable to the article and fully comply with the MoS policies for article content and style. Keep in touch if you have any concerns or further queries. -- felix 23:28, 7 November 2011 (EST)

Obe 04:06, 9 November 2011 (EST)== Hi Felix ==

Thank you for your information about website/rinjani package that I have been put in wiki travel, just for information, here we are not only selling the package, but we have a team from our guide and our porter, also we have own trekking equipment that we are working together with Rinjani Trekking Club during the treks we never sell our client to another agent in senaru or sembalun,we take them direclty with our guide and our porter (staff) that the way to resposible to our client. Thanks Obe -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Obe (talkcontribs)

Thanks Obe, that is the reassurance I was looking for. Are you one of the people that used to work for, or with Roni?. -- felix 01:43, 9 November 2011 (EST)
Hi, We know roni, sometimes we working together. If we have sharing trip to rinjani, we share with roni Obe 04:06, 9 November 2011 (EST)
Thats great, I think I know who you are then. I hope it all goes well, that website really does look very good.-- felix 08:28, 9 November 2011 (EST)

La Paz - Learn

Thanks for the cleanup :-)

Also, I wanted to thank you for your contribution to that insanely long talk page discussion. It might not have seemed so from my writing style - I can get a little abrasive at times, I know - but I did appreciate your input.

Schesis 22:57, 2 March 2012 (EST)

It's a pleasure Schesis, I was just trying to assist. I think both IK and I know where you are coming from and your sincerity is certainly not in question in that discussion. I am happy to see it rest and your concerns about the content are readily understood. You seem to have a way with words. Maybe consider becoming an editor here. You have already apparently gained an understanding of how things work here and have at least read some of the editing guidelines. Frankly that is more than many contributors ever do, sometimes this can really mess up an article even though the intent of the contributor is often genuine and well intentioned. IK and others spend quite a lot of energy trying to keep the articles in some sort of order yet still 'lively'. The formulaic pattern to it all is what separates WT from being a travel blog and makes it (hopefully) useful as a travelers resource. If you are interested in contributing here I am sure you would be readily welcomed into the family of editors here, indeed consider this a statement of welcome. Normally as part of the process of greeting a new editor one of us should have left you a Welcome message on your User talk page and it seems that we both overlooked doing that. -- felix 01:29, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Beta email

Hey Felix,

I sent your Beta credentials to the email address you have on file.

Best,

Paul--IBobi 15:58, 7 March 2012 (EST)

OK, I wil have a look, thanks for letting me know. cheers--felix 19:56, 7 March 2012 (EST)

Anand Ashram Additions to your Page on Ubud

My dear, dear Felix,

I am thankful to you for your kind remarks. I must admit, i am new. So, please, should you find any of my additions inappropriate, you may write me (ubud@anandashram.asia) and point out to me what are the things that must be edited. Alternately, i also authorize you (though i understand such authorization is not important :-) to edit accordingly.

The ashram in Ubud is providing services to travelers who are not very well to do, at the same time we appreciate donations for the upkeep. There is absolutely no commercial motive or any vested interest behind this. Please be assured of this.

My salutations to you friend,

very sincerely - anand krishna —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anand Ashram (talkcontribs)

While your motives may be entirely sincere you still need to follow the guidelines and policies of the Wikitravel website. No problem with you contributing here, indeed you are encouraged to do so, but please do not assume someone is having a go at you, not understanding you, or trying to exclude your contributions. Please just read the guidelines, as has been suggested on your talk page. You project sounds great, and yoga is a wonderful thing to do and to bring to others. All the best with the project in Ubud and please do understand that you are welcome to contribute here and to provide details of the Ashram in Ubud, but please come here with out assumptions about the other editors, or the others involved in Yoga services in Bali as it is only Ikan Kekek, Jan (Jc8136), Ryan (Wrh2) and myself who have been editing your contributions and commenting on your talk page, and I don't think any of us have a yoga college, or an ashram, either in Bali or elsewhere, Namaste -- felix 10:48, 5 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for updates to Khao Lak

Insert non-formatted text here

...but you changed all my "Wi-Fi" to "WiFi".

According to the WT Style Guide it is supposed to be "Wi-Fi", no?

I am a newbie, trying to revamp the (to me) disappointing Khao Lak site and I am trying hard to obey the rules.

Clue me in if I am wrong.

Thanks, Seligne —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Seligne (talkcontribs)

"Wi-Fi" is a trademark of the Wi-Fi Alliance and a brand name for products using the IEEE 802.11 family of standards. Only Wi-Fi products that complete Wi-Fi Alliance interoperability certification testing successfully may use the "Wi-Fi CERTIFIED" designation and trademark. As the 802.11n, 802.11a or 802.11g equipment used by accommodation providers and WiFI hotspots is often not Wi-Fi Alliance certified I believe the use of the WiFi brand name is entirely inappropriate to describe it. I explained this issue to some other editors some time back but they insisted that the use of the registered brand name for all WiFi appliances was appropriate. I don't think they have bothered to gain an informed understanding of the ownership of the name and appear to have little or no understanding of the IEEE 802.11 wireless standards arising from the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. Use either of the two alternatives WiFi or Wi-Fi but try to avoid mixing the two styles in the same article. I suggest that unless you actually know that 'Wi-Fi Alliance certified equipment is in use at the individual locations then the term WiFi should be used. By the way Seligne, please ensure that you always sign a post on a discussion or Talk page so that the editor's Wikitravel user name can be readily identified. To do this use the 3 tides. You can do this by just clicking on Sign your name: ~~~~ (on talk pages only). Your edits are looking good and there are certainly a lot of improvements to the article you have been working on. Make sure you always drop the (0) from +66 (0). and avoid using (!) in the prose. Keep up the good work. Thanks -- felix 19:01, 21 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for your comments and guidance

I am in the process of making the changes you suggest. There is a lot of "legacy" content and I can't afford to spend more than a couple of hours a day making changes, so it is taking some time to fix all. I will keep slogging away at it. --Seligne seligne 21:24, 21 June 2012 (EDT)Seligne

I went through the article yesterday and fixed up some minor formatting issues.
Better that you can concentrate on the content for now, if you make a few errors with formatting don't worry about it too much, either I will spot them or one of the other editors will and we will then tidy them up as required. Sometimes it is easy to miss them or you might not just be aware of them at this time. Just have a look through afterwards and see if anything has been changed, that should readily show up anything you might have got wrong or overlooked. At this point in time it is better for your destination knowledge and content editing to have a clearer run unencumbered by concerns about arcane MoS issues, you will pick them up soon enough as you go along. Do keep up the good work. -- cheers felix 02:12, 23 June 2012 (EDT)

Moving on

Hi Felix,

i hope you are doing fine. I have seen your edits in Lombok and thank you for the work. Due to the devastating work of IB, Wikitravel is going down. That's way most of the active users will move on and leave Wikitravel. Could you write me an email so we can keep in touch? Best regards, Jc8136 05:50, 15 August 2012 (EDT)

Hi Jan, lovely to hear from you. Today in response to your note above I lit up the email function in my account preferences. (My email shortcut is now appearing in the tool box in the left hand menu bar or here).
However it is hard to know if it is working as I get the ongoing "internal error" message error when I Send.
If anyone wants to say hi I am a Wikipedia editor as well and can be found here. -- felix 15:39, 15 August 2012 (EDT)
Hi Felix, i tried to send you an email from my private account. If you received an email from gmail that includes my nic here than its me. I'm not a Wikipedian but several other guys are, so i will ask them to contact you. I really liked your comment for IBobi in the Pub. I used to be a rower during my school time and you really hit the point. Thank you for that statement and hopefully we meet some other time. Jc8136 16:06, 15 August 2012 (EDT)

Message from Seligne

Felix,

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement and informing me about the impending move of the website.

Frankly, when I saw that Wikitravel was under the auspices of Internet Brands I was dismayed. I applaud any closer association with Wikipedia, et al.

It also dismays me to see that most of my associates here rely on TripAdvisor for info about local venues, etc. For me, that site and the info it contains is highly suspect. I think the way we can elevate the visibility of WT is to create the most informative and accurate articles and it appears to me that an association with IB will not contribute to that cause.

Let me know if I can be of help. On my end I will keep plugging away on the places I have knowledge of. My next endeavour is to provide some decent maps.

Best, seligne 22:56, 19 August 2012 (EDT)Seligneseligne 22:56, 19 August 2012 (EDT)

Hi Seligne, I am relieved to hear from you so promptly. From what you have mentioned above I think you might be quite interested in the current discussions on the proposed move. It is essential that newer contributors to the project are embraced in any discussions for change and development. I apologise for referring to you as a "new contributor" as I do note you have actually been registered as a WT user for quite some time, however it is apparent you have taken to the task of article improvement with some vigour lately. It is interesting that you mention TA. Tripadvisor does have a valuable role, it does things that cannot be done here. It's less formalised structure is a lot more accommodating to many people and allows them quite useful levels of information exchange. The Bali forums are a great example of that. They are dynamic, spirited and in the greater part quite useful. Some other TA forums have less merit and frankly the Reviews are in many cases just entirely deceptive and misleading unless there is a clear and unequivocal provenance in the User's contribution histories.
If you are going to continue editing then please save a copy of your edits (in the editing mark up language) in case there are any more major issues developing in the stability of the IB servers. The site is currently being swamped with garbage edits and spam. Since nearly all the regular hard core minders have all slowly wandered off out of frustration the general article integrity site wide is now quickly getting quite messy. When you have finished a series of edits perhaps consider loading up the whole page in edit mode and cut and paste the all of it (in mark up language) into a word processing document and save it you your own harddrive. It would be most upsetting if you did a whole lot of useful work and found it was somehow later 'lost'. Perhaps if you have some spare time have a look at these three links, you will see there are some comments there form myself, and lots from other past and recently present WT editors. This is the Wikimedia page to have a look at, this one is a Migration FAQ and this one is a discussion of the FAQ and this one concerns the Interest in starting a new language version on WikiVoyage as a temporary home for the project whilst the Wikimedia details are sorted out. It is all a bit arcane but do get involved if you wish, perhpas register the same User name there for added clarity. cheers and thanks for your reply. -- felix 23:46, 19 August 2012 (EDT)

My editing access has now been reinstated

As IBobi locked me out with a 1 week editing access Ban earlier today it has somewhat clarified my feelings concerning the appropriateness of my further involvement in this project in it's current incarnation.
I assume his actions were endorsed by his employers, Internet Brands, who currently provide the host servers for this Project.
The detail of the Ban is described at 01:02, 21 August 2012 IBobi (Talk | contribs) blocked Felix505 (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (account creation disabled) ‎ (Spam solicitations on WT members' talk pages)

The block (ID is #12042) was eventually successfully removed at 07:32, 21 August 2012 by Dguillaime Talk (unblocked #12042) following thwarted attempts by WT admins. I was not the only victim of this mischief today.

Of course I was not placing "Spam" on WT members talk pages as the Ban notes suggest, the action taken in 'banning' me from Project participation was just an act of sheer mischief by someone with entirely inappropriate administrator level access to the Project.
However that signals the death knell for me. I will just observe the WT carcass from a distance now.

I see no potentially constructive outcomes from further engagement with IBobi as he appears to have become feral.

My POV concerning the appropriateness of the Ban is outlined here in IBobi's Talk page and there is some briefer commentary on the Travellers pub page. In the most part I have enjoyed working on this project, I am saddened to see what has now become of it.

I can be found here on Wikivoyage Also here on Wikipedia

Best wishes to all who remain working on the task here. -- felix 04:28, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

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