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User talk:DenisYurkin

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Hello! Welcome to Wikitravel. Thanks for plunging forward so far. If you're going to continue working on Wikitravel, you may find the tips for new contributors helpful.

You should also make sure you understand our copyleft and policies and guidelines. Scanning the Manual of style, especially the article templates, can give you a good idea of how we like articles formatted.

If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, and if you need some info not on there, post a message in the travellers' pub or on the talk page for the most appropriate article.

I note that you've been pretty active so far; thanks for your interesting questions. --Evan 10:18, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Russian Wikitravel Expedition

Oh, another question: are you a native Russian speaker? Would you be interested in helping start a Wikitravel:Russian Wikitravel Expedition? --Evan 10:19, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Thanks for encourangement. Not ready so far, for three reasons: (1) need some experience contributing to Wikitravel before creating something really new; (2) not sure it's many Russians enough for keeping it in a good shape; (3) judging by few days here, Wikitravel community itself is too young to spread its efforts into several versions--let's make good coverage in English first. Something like that... --DenisYurkin 16:36, 25 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Evan, I have two things that I'm not sure where to stick. Does it have anything to do with Russian Expedition? If so, what is the minimum overhead we can invest into Expedition to bring the ideas to live?
  1. Russian people in specific countries / regions: how many of them can be found as residents, and where? Many Russian travellers prefer to NOT see anyone from their country when they travel abroad (either among tourists or local residents) -- so this info does make practical sense.
  2. Less bulletproof: 'Country through eyes of Russians': many countries are richer, some are wilder or more poor than Russia -- and the way it seems by Russian is different from the way it seems by, let say, American or Australian. Not that bulletproof because views are still quite similar for Russians, Chinese, Eastern Europeans etc. Can think of examples, if the idea is not expressed well so far.
--DenisYurkin 17:59, 4 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Denis, if you would look over the work that has been done so far on the new Russian language version of Wikitravel, I would be very grateful. It would be really great to have a participant who is fluent both in Wikitravel's policies and in Russian—you are the only person who would match this description! --Peter Talk 18:49, 31 July 2007 (EDT)
Thanks for invitation, Peter. You are right, there is still some work to be done on finding best translations for Wikitravel terminology. I have only two stoppers for joining heavily:
  • still don't believe Russian-speaking audience is large enough--it will involve much efforts into making Ru up and running before we will receive any contributions from it that after translation can be used here in En (which still has quite a poor coverage).
  • I'm afraid of my temptation to change some Wikitravel policies on our way from En to Ru--and don't you? :-) By the way, how much freedom in setting up its own policy a language version of Wikitravel has?
--DenisYurkin 12:54, 1 August 2007 (EDT)
I understand your desire to focus on the English version, as there is a ton of work involved in really getting a Russian version going. My feeling is that I am willing to have :ru take a long time getting there, and I think that its very existence will bring in more contributors to Wikitravel generally. The temptation to change some policies is certainly something I share. I am trying to restrain myself somewhat, by first translating policies, then thinking about changing them, rather than simply writing my own policies ;). I think that core policies like Wikitravel:Goals and non-goals and Wikitravel:The traveller comes first should not be changed, but you will notice that I have not yet imported the quickbar template...
In any rate, even if you do not intend to become heavily involved, I would really appreciate it if you would quickly look over the [[:ru:Wikitravel:Словарникъ], policy name translations (I will have a prototype Manual of Style up today), and the translations of section headers (i.e., "Cope," "Stay safe," "Get around," etc.) in the article templates. I want to make sure we have these basic translations as good as possible before moving too far forward, because they will become used throughout the site and will be harder to change later on. You really are the best person I know of to come up with appropriate translations! --Peter Talk 15:52, 1 August 2007 (EDT)
I will try to find time in the nearest week. In a meanwhile, what about publishing a link in the  :ru Pub to the page listing major translations you want to be reviewed? It will both help myself and can attract wider range of opinions.
BTW, to what degree policies in a language version can be different from :en, for example? --DenisYurkin 04:07, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
Sure, I will make a list in the pub. And thank you for your willingness to help with this—your particular expertise really needed.
To what degree can :ru policies differ from :en? That is a gray area. In theory, we should be coordinating all policies between all language versions on Wikitravel Shared. In practice, however, we are not doing that. Discussions are happening pretty exclusively on separate language versions, in different languages, and there is very little coordination, except for where we have multi-lingual administrators on more than one language version. I have been participating on the Spanish version of Wikitravel, and am a little surprised to see that their common practices and policies often differ substantially from ours here.
As of now, we only have two active members on :ru, so if you were to join us, you would only need to convince the two of us (really just me, in fact) in order to establish a new "consensus." But given my desire to have more inter-wiki coordination, I might just bring up our discussions and proposals on shared ;) --Peter Talk 04:39, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
I failed to find any cases on shared where changes in policy from language versions were brought up at shared for discussion. Have you seen such cases yourself? --DenisYurkin 17:27, 14 August 2007 (EDT)

> But given my desire to have more inter-wiki coordination, I might just bring up our discussions and proposals on shared

In my belief, the more proper thing to start with this is to move all :en discussions on policies to shared. --DenisYurkin 09:58, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

I agree, but it would take much pushing to get everyone to agree to that, I think. And thank you for your edits on :ru! --Peter Talk 12:22, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
Hey Denis, when you have time, would you please comment at the discussions ru:Wikitravel:Пивная путешественников#Название_проекта and ru:Обсуждение:Болшой город. I really trust your opinion above my own, because I am not a native speaker, and above others', because you are very familiar and experienced with Wikitravel. And the resolution of both of these discussions is very important. Thanks! --Peter Talk 17:54, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
Thanks for all your recent work on getting the translations right! I'll comment after allowing some time for more native speakers to voice their opinions. By the way, I completely agree about "правьте смело," I took that straight from Wikipedia and, as you said, it doesn't really convey the meaning of "Plunge forward." I'm still not sure what would, however. "Не стесняйтесь добавлять..." seems a bit too long. I presume "погружаться" would not work?
Let's discuss it over there, and in Russian, if you don't mind :-) --DenisYurkin 17:25, 14 August 2007 (EDT)
On another topic, would you mind sort of monitoring the Russian site over the next week? I'm going to be away and would feel better knowing you are maintaining the site. Thanks again for all your help! --Peter 03:56, 13 August 2007 (EDT)
I have a busy week before my vacation, so I can only check things going there once in 2 or 3 days. But I don't think it have high risk of vandalism at this point. --DenisYurkin 17:25, 14 August 2007 (EDT)
Today is my last day before going to a vacation for 3 weeks. In a meanwhile, :ru is fine: no vandals, but also very little value-adding activity :-) Hope to talk upon our return, after Sept 10. --DenisYurkin 08:47, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Creating New articles

Hi Denis - regarding your comments on Wikitravel:Votes for deletion and Wikitravel:Travellers' pub, just to clarify, it's not that the additional information isn't wanted here, but we do need to stike a balance to ensure that the site's organization is consistent and useful. In general the existing Wikitravel:What is an article? and Wikitravel:Where you can stick it guides have proven good tools for keeping the site organized. One of the goals of the site is that each article be a self-contained travel guide that a traveler can print and carry with them.

That said, occasionally a section of an article can become unwieldy, and thus warrant its own article. As an example, any info on Greek wines should go into the article on Greece. However, if so much info about Greek wines was added to the Greece article that it overwhelmed the article (and if that info was relevant for travelers) then it might make sense to talk about splitting the info out into a separate article (similar to Electronics and entertainment shopping in Thailand). Similarly with hotels, if for example there is a resort somewhere that simply has so much to do that it cannot possibly be described in a few paragraphs, that might be a candidate for a new article (see Disneyland).

A good rule is to always start out with info in the parent article, and to only discuss splitting that info out once it becomes unwieldy, provided the information is something useful and relevant for travelers. -- Wrh2 15:48, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I think I've got it. I was also thinking about creating a precedent of giving much info, and then proceeding to discussion on organizing it the best way. The only thing that stopped me is that noone before stated this principle: "it's not that the additional information isn't wanted here". Thanks for clarifying this first -- maybe it's worth considering to mention in the Goals. Meanwhile, I'll try with adding info, and seeing how we go. --DenisYurkin 16:38, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Just to be clear, an important caveat of the "add all you want" bit is that the information should be relevant for a travel guide, and other editors can always trim what you've written (just as you can always add things back). Be aware that just because there is a lot to say about a place doesn't mean it is important to say it all in a travel guide. That said, go ahead and update a few articles and let's see how it turns out. -- Wrh2 17:05, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)
One of the first steps is Amymone in Nafplion#Sleep. Does it look like copmplying with the policies? Few more examples will follow. --DenisYurkin 05:30, 1 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Looks fine to me. The only change is that according to the Wikitravel:Manual of style, the URL should look like [1]. -- Wrh2 14:40, 1 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Please contact me

I'd like to send you some private email, but you don't allow email through the Wikitravel interface. Could you send me an email at --Evan 11:57, 7 November 2006 (EST) --DenisYurkin 15:47, 7 November 2006 (EST)
> but you don't allow email through the Wikitravel interface.
How can I enable this? In preferences, I already have "Enable e-mail from other users" turned on. --DenisYurkin 17:03, 7 November 2006 (EST)
It seems to be enabled now. --Evan 19:18, 9 November 2006 (EST)

Re: paper travel guides

Let me answer your questions:

  • what do you think of adding a section to the end of Wikitravel:Requests for comment with a title like "Guilty-until-proven-innocent", where we can attrach more enthusiasts to the topic?
    • I wouldn't. The pub is the best place for this, so:
  • will it comply to Wikitravel rules if I invite people in the Wikitravel:Travellers' pub to join the discussion taking place in User talk subpage?
    • This seems like exactly the right approach.
      • I seem to have been misunderstood on all counts here. I am recommending use of the pub to notify people to discuss whether an article can be formed that meets the conflicting goals. The pub is the conventional place for initiating the inquiry, which should be moved elsewhere ("swept in") as soon as feasible. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 12:44, 21 December 2006 (EST)
        • Bill, I apologize for any misunderstanding that could be in place. How do you recommend to change notification/invitation in the Pub from the current edition? I'm afraid the difference between IsNow and ShouldBe is too subtle for me now. --DenisYurkin 17:30, 21 December 2006 (EST)
  • overall, is it "legal" to keep and develop an article that does not comply to official rules? Do we have any similar precedents?
    • Yes, things like this have been done before, and user sub-pages have been used to develop articles that started with controversy but became acceptable. That's why I suggested addressing this topic this way. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 22:17, 20 December 2006 (EST)
After an article has gone through VfD, there is one way to re-instate it: Wikitravel:votes for undeletion. --Evan 12:22, 21 December 2006 (EST)
More for Evan than for Denis: do remember that this user page was created before the article was deleted. This isn't about reinstating an article. It's about turning the idea Denis had, and saved here, into something that will pass muster. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:29, 21 December 2006 (EST)

HTML in listings

I notice you're putting HTML in the listings on pages like Eger. I don't think this fit with our Wikitravel:Manual of style or usual attempt to avoid HTML in pages. I've started a discussion at Wikitravel_talk:Listings#HTML_in_listings.3F, but please let me know if I missed a previous conversation elsewhere. Thanks. Maj 23:06, 20 January 2007 (EST)

Do you mean <span> tag which I use merely for giving an anchor? No, there's no previous discussion on it; I'll comment on it in Wikitravel_talk:Listings#HTML_in_listings.3F. --DenisYurkin 01:44, 21 January 2007 (EST)


You are always bursting over with ideas. I can't say that I always agree with them, but anyway I think it's great that you have so much enthusiasm. However, I have a question regarding a different matter - your docent location. A few months ago, I cleaned up the Western Siberia page and Altai - the republic, and Altai - the krai were separated. According to the way it was set up, you are currently docent for the republic. If that is not correct, you might like to change it. Also, I started pages for the major cities of those areas, which are currently looking a little bare. So if you get the chance, maybe you could add some info. Thanks. WindHorse 21:50, 11 February 2007 (EST)

That was a very quick response. Thank you. WindHorse 22:00, 11 February 2007 (EST)
I like your idea to drive my energy to something more useful than debates :-)
For now, I signed up as a docent for both Krai and Republic (although I seem to know more on krai), and for Barnaul city--let's see if I can help with any specifics. I've listed some cities (actually, most are the towns); I've created a personal todo for someday to help these articles with more content. Feel free to ask if you need something specific on these regions. --DenisYurkin 22:13, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Docent for Budapest

Dear DenisYurkin, thank you for considering me as a docent. Nowadays I am extremely busy with my graduation project, but if it doesn't take much effort I can become one. I can give it a try. - bujatt 06:19, 21 February 2007 (EST)

For now, questions to docents are really rare in my experience, but your mileage may vary. When you're ready to start, consider instructions in Wikitravel:Docents. Best of luck. --DenisYurkin 08:04, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Altai Krai#Cities

Discussion moved to Talk:Altai Krai

Moscow Oblast#Regions

Thanks for your help with Altai! I'm now pondering what to do with Moscow Oblast, since it has so many cities (~7 million residents now) and so many important sites. I think we should break the Moscow Oblast article into two or three regions (in addition to Moscow Federal City so that each region only contains 5–9 cities, but I don't know what is the best way to do this. Do you have any thoughts on how to split up the article by regions? Are there any regional categories that the people in Moscow use to talk about the surrounding area? Or do people just use the (unhelpful) small districts and rayony? If you don't have any ideas, we could just use regions like "South Moscow Oblast" and "East Moscow Oblast," but that is rather boring, I think. Спасибо еще раз за помощь. --Peterfitzgerald Talk 15:13, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for your Russian ;-) First of all, I am not sure I understand what exactly can we call cities, and what's name for smaller settlements (towns?). --DenisYurkin 16:23, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
As I understand it, the standard Wikitravel practice is to just group together all settlements, including towns and cities, under the heading "cities" when making region articles. So I don't think we have to worry much about this, but I have been calling settlements larger than 30,000 cities, under 30,000 towns, and under ~2,000 villages. I have been distinguishing the settlements, however, only in the one-line sentence describing the place. Either way, there should only be 5–9 settlements per region page, and Moscow Oblast now has 28! I suppose we will need at least 4 subregions. --Peterfitzgerald Talk 17:43, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
Personally, I don't see much value of creating a hierarchy before we have enough traveller-useful content, like usadba's (Arkhangelskoe etc). I will take a look at some AroundMoscow travel guide, but judging by Russian Wikipedia, there's no good division except south-north-east-west. --DenisYurkin 08:51, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
I think the regional hierarchy is useful as a skeleton on which other editors can add information—and I enjoy making the region pages so why hold back!. In any rate, I myself intend to create a lot of content for Russia's cities, after creating a comprehensive regional structure. But I think you are right, there might not be a better way to divide up the Moscow Oblast pages other than: Moscow City, North Moscow Oblast, East Moscow Oblast, etc. Thanks again for your help! --Peterfitzgerald Talk 18:34, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

Ok, I went ahead with the north-south-west-east divisions and moved the cities listings to sub-region pages. I had to narrow the cities/towns list on Moscow Oblast#Cities down to nine, but I don't know the region all that well—do you think the current list is a good representative sample of the most travel-prominent cities in the region? Also, we definitely should get the usadbas online. Would, say, Arkhangelskoe also have a town around it, where a traveler could stay? Or should it be incorporated into a nearby city's article? --Peterfitzgerald Talk 17:19, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

As for usadbas, the best list I've found so far in wikipedia is this (see "Culture and recreation" section in a the google-translated version).
As for Arkhangelskoe specifically, I don't think it would add much value for traveller to place it under Krasnogorsk, so I would refer to it directly from Moscow (city or Oblast, don't know). --DenisYurkin 05:43, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
Thanks for finding that list—I should be able to find details on the individual estates in other places. Leaving Arkhangelskoe under Krasnogorsk fits well under our Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy policy, but you are definitely right that it won't be easy to find on its own. For now, I will put a link to it under the "Get out" section of Moscow. When there is more usadba content, I think it might be useful to create a Travel topic for the region's usadbas, which could be linked from Moscow#Get out and would explain what they are and which ones make for the best excursions. I am, however, going slowly with this right now because I am currently working on Chicago#Districts. But I'll get back to this! --Peter Talk 13:47, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
Good luck with that, and let me know if I can help with any other local knowledge. --DenisYurkin 13:18, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

Cyclades - Stay safe

Hi Denis, I've changed the stay safe section in article Cyclades to The Cyclades are very safe. Travelers should exercise usual precautions. You are right, petty theft is uncommon on islands within the Cyclades, but it happens on the bigger islands close to the turkish mainland. I originally just wanted to point out that usual precautions are enough. I'm sorry, it took me quite a while to answer your request on my disucssion page. Kaykay 13:53, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

But am I right that there are reasons for giving a warning for some specific islands? If so, I encourage you to do so on their respective pages, as Cyclades article is too general for that. --DenisYurkin 13:51, 6 July 2007 (EDT)


Say, what IS a hamman (whether standalone or otherwise)? (I'll check back to this page for your response.) 11:14, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

I think this description is quite good: --DenisYurkin 13:46, 6 July 2007 (EDT)
Ah, now I see. Thanks. 11:20, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

Barcelona districts

User:Oriolbcn, I've moved the discussion to Talk:Barcelona--please join us there if you feel like it. --DenisYurkin 13:34, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

Vandalism policy?

I don't know about you folks (I'm sending the same message to several), but I for one am getting sick and tired of the intentional vandalism that's going on here. I am trying to start a discussion on Wikitravel talk:Community policies as to whether something more forceful needs to be in place to deal with it. Historically, we have bent far over backwards to avoid punitive action against vandals and have simply gone in and cleaned up the messes they create. However, the frequency of vandalism is growing, and I am not convinced that we are doing Wikitravel a service by tolerating it. This said, I'm not at all sure what the "right" response is.

I'd appreciate your participation in the discussion on that talk page. Let's see if we can come up with something appropriate. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 11:44, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

What is this?

Saw you use <includeonly></includeonly>. What's that do? -- OldPine 17:59, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

They were added somehow by mistake; removed--thanks for pointing. --DenisYurkin 04:12, 21 October 2007 (EDT)


Hi Denis, I'm trying to establish a firm, durable consensus for which 9 cities should be listed on the Russia page. I would appreciate your advice—would you care to comment? --Peter Talk 02:30, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

When will the Aeroexpress run all the way to Sheremetyevo?

Hello, do you have any information on the exact date when the railway to Sheremetyevo airport is to be completed? I'll be visiting Moscow in the first week of December 2007, I suppose it won't be ready by then? --KalleKn

Judging by the news I've found [2] [3], the earliest time it will be launched is early Jan, 2008. --DenisYurkin 17:40, 9 November 2007 (EST)
Ah, but the real question is: will it offer a good view of the giant tank traps? -- Bill-on-the-Hill 18:57, 9 November 2007 (EST)
Not sure I understood what you meant. My English is not too strong. --DenisYurkin 19:14, 9 November 2007 (EST)
Your English is FAR better than my Russian! I was referring to the monument that marks the limit of the German advance during the Great Patriotic War, which consists of a set of giant, crossed beams (known as "tank traps" because they were set up to keep tanks from advancing) and were visible from the road into the city from Sheremetyevo. I used to travel to Moscow frequently, and always found them impressive; it would be nice if they're still visible from the Aeroexpress. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 20:12, 9 November 2007 (EST)
I see. As long as the monument is just next to Leningradskoe highway, and a railroad can't follow literally the same route as the automobile road, I don't think it will be visible. --DenisYurkin 05:21, 10 November 2007 (EST)

Rome districts

As you've probably noticed I'm very busy with the Chicago guide right now, but will be finishing up this week and maybe next week. After that I'll definitely help out with the Rome districts and with a nice districts map. I love Rome! --Peter Talk 16:58, 13 December 2007 (EST)

Wow, that's really a surprise--I've never seen any enthusiasm about defining district borders for the articles I contribute to :-) So I'm looking forward to seeing you joining ;-) --DenisYurkin 17:01, 13 December 2007 (EST)
Peter, do you think it makes sense to remind you someday? (Of course I can't ask for any specific dates--just to be sure I will do everything I can to help proceeding with Rome districts). --DenisYurkin 07:43, 28 February 2008 (EST)

Request for Information Policy

Hi Dennis.

Thanks for your message. (I've just sent you an e-mail saying that in fact, as I couldn't figure out where/how to otherwise talk to you.) Best wishes :-) --Wayneinmelton 13:45, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Hi Wayne. Thanks for your comment.
You are right, I'm just back from Sri Lanka, but it takes time to publish stuff I discovered in my travel. I would be happy if you fix my edits/add more details when you feel knowledgeable. --DenisYurkin 14:02, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Russian translations

Hey Denis, I just wanted to let you know that I finally got around to responding to your comments at ru:Обсуждение Wikitravel:Терминология, and I implemented many of the proposed changes in terminology site-wide. You may want to take a look ;) --Peter Talk 04:31, 13 January 2008 (EST)

Admin nomination

IMHO, it's way past time, so I've nominated you as an administrator! Please indicate whether you are willing to accept the role. --Peter Talk 06:30, 23 January 2008 (EST)

VFU - Ferries in the Mediterranean

Ferries in the Mediterranean has been undeleted. --Nick 05:03, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Thanks. BTW, is there any way for me to take a look at contents of List of ferries without undeleting it first? --DenisYurkin 08:03, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Don't think so. We can always undelete, copy the content and redelete if you want --Nick 08:46, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Yes, having a content retrieved to some sandbox page under User:DenisYurkin would suffice for my needs. Can you help with retrieving it? --DenisYurkin 09:52, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Done: User:DenisYurkin/List_of_Ferries --Nick 10:05, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Thanks a lot. --DenisYurkin 10:48, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Im the one who originally started this page. Are you still working on it? How van we make it grow? -- Eiland 06:52, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
If you mean Ferries in the Mediterranean, just go ahead and improve the article--it is restored now and is not different than any other article at Wikitravel.
If you mean User:DenisYurkin/List_of_Ferries, welcome to work on it to make it meet our Manual of style (and to make it easy to vote for undeleting it--i.e. moving the article you improve in my personal namespace to Wikitravel namespace).
In either case, please keep in mind why these articles were originally deleted--as it will be necessary to persuade they are good enough for Wikitravel: Wikitravel:Votes for deletion/September 2007#List of ferries.
--DenisYurkin 11:20, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
Im not a fan of the list of ferries, but it can provide some resource. Due to my own stupidity i connected the list to the Med page, and then that was co-deleted. But you argued it back I believe? But it doesnt seem that anyone takes much interest in it.-- Eiland 05:02, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
So you would like to improve Ferries in the Mediterranean? And what kind of resource do you mean? --DenisYurkin 02:27, 13 August 2008 (EDT)


I've flipped your "bit". You're now an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 22:56, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Thanks, Andrew. --DenisYurkin 03:57, 1 March 2008 (EST)

idk why but when ever i create a outline it gets deleted i thought you have to have sleep can you help me? -- 22:03, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

:ru administrator nominations

Hey Denis, would you mind adding a comment to ru:Wikitravel:Кандидатура администратора—I just nominated ru:Участник:Sergey kudryavtsev for the position. Thanks! --Peter Talk 01:35, 14 June 2008 (EDT)


Денис, пожалуйста, выскажите своё мнение в ru:Обсуждение:Питсбург (раздел "Питтсбург или Питсбург?") -- Sergey kudryavtsev 02:35, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Admin nomination

Hey, I just nominated User:LtPowers for sysop status. I'd appreciate it if you would comment here. Thanks! --Peter Talk 19:02, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Перевод слова "Listing"

Right now we have the Russian translation for the word "listing" as "список," but that's really not a correct translation of the term, since список means "list," not "an individual item on a list." I'm having a lot of trouble expressing myself without a proper translation—can you think of one? I thought perhaps "внесение" would be a valid translation? --Peter Talk 13:11, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Would you mind if we discuss this in ru:Обсуждение Wikitravel:Терминология#listing? --DenisYurkin 17:24, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Moscow deletions

Hi Denis. I have commented on your Moscow deletions on my talk page. --MarinaK 13:53, 29 September 2008 (EDT)MarinaK.

SPB events

Hey Denis, did you mean to remove the Saint Petersburg events section? [4] I would think that, if anything, the section should actually be expanded. --Peter Talk 21:31, 29 June 2009 (EDT)

Hi Peter. Should we have a top-level section for Events? I can't see one in Wikitravel:Big city article template. In a meanwhile, I moved it to make a subsection of Do. Its contents were moved around to where some content was already before that; I don't have new events to add to the list--but don't mean they don't exist. --DenisYurkin 14:00, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Empty itineraries..

Hi. I was wondering if you could reconsider your position at Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy#Incomplete travel topics and itineraries. As stated there, the threshold to get a usable itinerary is quite low. This policy change is really aimed at just removing bare itineraries that seemed a good idea to a person at the time, but who never actually followed through with any content. In these cases, it will usually be better to create a new itinerary than to try and think what the original creator may have had in mind. What do you think? --inas 20:05, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Huge thanks for pursuing personal contact when you see a disagreement--that's a great practice (and I never saw it here before). I really appreciate it.
I've just posted a followup in the talk:Deletion policy. --DenisYurkin 21:29, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Some questions

I'm inclined to propose Phrasebook International for deletion. I see it as a failed experiment. However, I thought I'd ask you first. You & I were the main contributors and you started the page.

On the other hand, I wonder about Wikitravel:Votes_for_deletion/July_2008#What_things_cost where you & I were almost the only people who argued it was useful, and more recent discussion in the pub Wikitravel:Travellers'_pub#Cost_of_living_benchmark.3F. Any ideas on what to do there? Pashley 01:07, 29 September 2009 (EDT)

I'm fine with moving (back?) PhrsBkIntl into my personal userspace, until more supporters for it appear. I'm OK with VFDing it before actually moving, if it's mandated by our policies. I definitely won't have any substantial energy for standing to keep it, but I'd like to keep the history of changes readily available for future contributors.
As for WhatThingsCost/CostOfLiving: giving it a second thought, I believe it would fit WT principles better if we have a "costs" subsections for each destination guide, giving an estimate for top categories of expenses: lodging, eating, car rental, fuel and tolls (in #Sleep, #Eat, #GetAround respectively). For example:
  • giving a lodging-per-month-per-lodging-type
  • or {a set menu for lunch | a full dinner | a cup of capuccino | a glass of fresh orange juice} in a {tourist trap | a blue-collars-locals-tavern | a smart-urban-creative-workers favourite | a ties-and-evening-dress restaurant}
  • or "total fuel+tolls to explore top 10 towns in the province" estimate.
This are all ideas I have at the moment. Will try to implement some in Portugal when I have time; not sure if there's any chance to recover the accommodation costs table for Rome.
What do you think? --DenisYurkin 17:40, 29 September 2009 (EDT)


Денис, мы тут с Игорем написали проект пресс-релиза, взгляните. Основная цель, конечно, корыстная, привлечение к участию википедистов. ;-) -- Sergey kudryavtsev 17:52, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Попробую посмотреть, надо только выкроить непрерывные полчаса, это не всегда просто :-). Единственное -- я не специалист в общении с прессой, и подобных текстов никогда не писал. Но из общих соображений -- посмотрю. --DenisYurkin 17:24, 28 October 2009 (EDT)


Hi Denis, why you deleted the entries in Pärnu? The work done looks fine to me.jan 05:49, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Denis, I had a closer look in the article and reverted your change but deleted three external links that belonged to one hotel. jan 06:00, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
That's right, the extlink was the only reason for reverting. Sorry that I blew up the rest of useful content, this was purely by mistake. --DenisYurkin 16:45, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Nuking touting listings

Hey Denis, I think you might be using to strict of a measure in choosing which listings to remove. In this edit [5] for example, those were all hotels that Stefan and I had deliberately chosen to keep. You left the article with only one listing, which IMO has the worst description of all of them. While the reviews on the ones you removed were promotional, they were still informative, which is what I think matters most. --Peter Talk 19:18, 20 November 2009 (EST)

Does it make sense to keep listings which you can't seriously rely upon? How is it better than just walking into any hotel you meet upon arrival, or just googling [hotels in rome]? We have only one traveler-interest review, and we can't trust how good is the rest.
Maybe I'm very radical, but I don't see the point of keeping them. --DenisYurkin 19:54, 20 November 2009 (EST)
Actually, I don't think the one you left in there was added by a traveler—to me, that looks clearly like the work of either a hotel owner or marketing agent. For large, busy cities like Rome, my general impression is that we won't ever wind up with a very good guide to accommodations by waiting for travelers (or business owners) to add their own experiences, since each traveler will only have knowledge of one, and will lack the basis for comparison. The only big cities for which we have really good sleep sections are ones where some WT editor has gone way out of their way to do research. It would be fantastic if at some point someone does try to do that tough work to bring Rome in the direction of star status, but for now, I think those existing sleep listings meet our standards for inclusion. --Peter Talk 12:04, 21 November 2009 (EST)

For the record (for myself), here are reverts of my edits:

(have I missing something?)

--DenisYurkin 19:47, 8 February 2010 (EST)

detouting rome/north center


The hotels you just removed had been there for ages. I made some minor changes to one, Hotel Fleming, to reduce the touting and then you deleted the lot. I can't really understand why you would choose to do it now and not before. Shep 06:52, 21 November 2009 (EST)

I tried to explain that above, #Nuking touting listings (I wasn't very successful in that, though). I was trying to follow a new reading of our "don't tout" per WelcomeBizOwners talk. I will try to explain my actions there and contribute something new to that discussion from this experience.
This also explains "why now, and not before": because we just reached a new reading (as I understood it). --DenisYurkin 04:53, 25 November 2009 (EST)

Welcome shortcut

Hey Denis, I saw that you created a welcome shortcut to Wikitravel:Welcome message. Would you mind if I redirected it to Wikitravel:Welcome, newcomers instead? I often type "Hello and [[Wikitravel:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikitravel" before leaving a more detailed and personalized message to business touts, and it would save me time if I could just wikify the word welcome. --Peter Talk 17:50, 28 January 2010 (EST)

Don't remember now why I have defined such a shortcut (to quickly jump to Wikitravel:Welcome message#Businessowners?) Anyway, I don't use it for a long time, so feel free to redefine it; your proposal seems very reasonable. --DenisYurkin 04:29, 29 January 2010 (EST)

Roman Starbucks

(moved from User:DenisYurkin):

Comment on "Edits/removals to challenge": Starbucks mention removed from Rome

Denis. I believe it totally inappropriate to define a place in terms of what it does not have. Beginning a section stating that Rome does not have a Starbucks strikes me as cultural imperialism at its worst. Rome doesn't have lots of things that are found in the States, but that is no reason to list them all. Should we begin the Drink section with the observation that Rome doesn't have a Hooters? It is a great city with great coffee. If people only want to go places that have a Starbucks they should not be travelling! Shep 07:12, 9 February 2010 (EST)
Shep, my overall opinion (regardless Rome, to start with) on Starbucks is something like this. For some travelers from a third world (and from Russia*, include it or not) Starbucks in any place in Europe is a little island with a guaranteed, same-everywhere ambience; place for an affordable cheesecake and a huge caffe latte; place to read a guidebook or write down some thoughts. For them (and for myself until recently), it's absolutely not a "home away from home" or "Italian travelling to France but still eating only pizza there". I'm not sure it's a self-explaining analogy, but in 1990 a first McDonalds opened in Moscow. Believe it or not, but locals were eagerly standing in a queue "just to get the taste of that legendary Western life" (see a proofic: [14]). Something similar with Starbucks: when you don't have them in your city (and country), especially if service and coffee standards are not brilliant in your country, visiting Starbucks when travelling is always a little miracle: "How lucky this country is to have such a cafe on every street".
Of course, once can recommend a local chain which can offer something of equal or higher standards to Starbucks, or if we already have one or two of privately-owned coffeeshops for every small district giving even better ambience etc, it's OK to nuke any Starbucks mention in a given destination. But not before. And for every destination where I insisted on keeping SB, there were just very few local alternatives to SB (if any).
(*) For a traveler from Moscow (but not for a citizen of rest of Russia), things changed a bit only a year ago, when a dozen of Starbucks opened in Moscow also. It helped me better understand your (and others') objections on listing Starbucks at WT--but I still believe it's valueable for those who don't have SB in their country of residence. --DenisYurkin 16:35, 9 February 2010 (EST)
Denis. If Rome had a Starbucks I'd have no problem mentioning it, even though I try to avoid the places myself. The Rome pages do mention Macdonalds. But Rome doesn't have a Starbucks, which was the point I was trying to make. Shep 14:53, 11 February 2010 (EST)
The trick is that virtually every capital in Western and Central Europe have Starbucks, exceptions are very few. The point is to stress that Rome is one of the such exceptions. --DenisYurkin 10:54, 18 February 2010 (EST)
OK. I'll try to edit to make that point. Shep 14:22, 18 February 2010 (EST)
Thanks, it's also really lively written now! --DenisYurkin 14:44, 18 February 2010 (EST)


I was removing the tag from user sandbox pages (because they show up as "guides" in the category if they have the tag) and I must have accidentally gone to the real page, as well. I will put it back! Sorry! ChubbyWimbus 15:20, 4 May 2010 (EDT)

Deletion of apartment sections

Hi Denis! Your deletions of apartment sections are welcome from my side but some of the business owners started to argue (especially Vienna and Lisbon). Feel free to join the discussion... jan 18:02, 16 June 2010 (EDT)

Russian question

Can you comment at Wikitravel:Travellers'_pub#Question_about_Russian_teaching? Pashley 06:20, 13 August 2010 (EDT)

Commented, but I'm not any kind of expert. --DenisYurkin 16:19, 16 August 2010 (EDT)

travel topics status

Thanks for reviewing some of these travel topic statuses. With cities and other places, we have some guidelines of what makes a certain status: does it have hotels, does it have completed entries for restaurants, can you get there, and such. With travel topics, they vary so widely that it's not as easy to know just what to set. Even deciding if the outline even covers the types of information which should be covered in the topic is hard, or did they just create the headers which they wanted to write about that day. And that is before you even get to how well they covered those topics. I definitely erred on the low side; your updates will help me to get a better handle on just where the line should be. --Bill in STL 02:13, 2 September 2010 (EDT)

In my fixes, I merely based on definitions from Wikitravel:Travel topic status (sure you've read it too)--and yes, my understanding of what the article in question is supposed to contain / where it is supposed to develop (which understanding can be wrong, of course). --DenisYurkin 18:02, 2 September 2010 (EDT)

deletion Rome/Modern Center hotels

Denis, I would not regard those recent additions you deleted as touting. They were just simple listings without the flowery advertising language I associate with touting. If not in such ways when can businesses insert info on their products? Shep 17:11, 3 September 2010 (EDT)

I don't believe bulk addition like that is helpful for Wikitravel. We are not a yellow page, and allowing descriptions that absolutely don't help in choosing these (vs others) hotels is a wrong direction. Maybe we should classify that different from DontTout, but the result should be the same, imho: such listings shouldn't pass. --DenisYurkin 17:23, 3 September 2010 (EDT)

User:DenisYurkin/What things cost

Hi Denis - while reviewing current VFDs I noticed that User:DenisYurkin/What things cost has a VFD template on it. Since that page is in your user space you can delete it without nomination. If you don't want it deleted could you remove the template so that it doesn't show up on Category:VfD? Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:19, 1 October 2010 (EDT)

Removed {{vfd}} from it. --DenisYurkin 04:05, 1 October 2010 (EDT)
Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 10:39, 1 October 2010 (EDT)


Riad Basma-- lat="31.625691" long="-7.984995". You just did a "rvt unexplained deletion" on the cords for the Riad Basma. Seeeing your edit and assuming that I must have accidently deleted them I scoured the prior versions but I cannot see them there. Is this (Riad Basma) listing the correct place you meant to put them? Just thought I had better check as it has confused me a little. felix 13:45, 5 December 2010 (EST)

Not sure it was you: [15]. --DenisYurkin 17:43, 5 December 2010 (EST)
I hope it was not me, if it was it was a mistake. I was wondering if I had scrubbed them thinking they were a phone number error. Sometimes people put the altitude (elevation) of a location into the alt field and prices or times in the cord fields and I have been known to remove or move these details to a more appropriate place in an attempt to restore some sort of sense to things. I do notice that the the cords are not displaying in the listings, maybe they need to be formatted differently. I assume you have put them in there as the Medina has a reputation for confusing navigation, some travellers may appreciate this information. Cheers felix 00:50, 6 December 2010 (EST)
It wasn't me who originally added these coords, but we value them for any destination. --DenisYurkin 15:48, 6 December 2010 (EST)
Yes indeed, especially useful if entering a maze, well in theory anyhow. I note they are not displaying though, I assume it is a formatting issue. Do you know anything about the 'correct' formatting . I cannot find a guideline anywhere. Normally they would be expressed like this..8°25′00″S 116°28′00″E, (by the way that is a volcano...not a hotel) but I not they are not in those Marrakech listings. Do you know anything about this. I tried a couple of variations on one of the listings but it still did not display in the article.felix 06:28, 7 December 2010 (EST)
Try looking into these: Wikitravel:Listings#Attributes (scroll down to lat and long) and Wikitravel:Geocoding#Converting from traditional format. --DenisYurkin 15:23, 7 December 2010 (EST)
Thanks for that Denis, I guess I was searching for geocords and cords...the bottom line though is that the feature is not yet displaying. It also looks to me as though if it were displaying then the cords I gave above as an example from the Marrakech listings probably would not display correctly.
lat: Decimal latitude (GPS coordinates) for map output. Not yet displayed. Optional.
long: Decimal longitude (GPS coordinates) for map output. Not yet displayed. Optional.
also from WT-Geocoding:Converting from traditional format
To convert from traditional format like lat=N45°30'0", long=W73°36'0", the following can help:
  • X°Y'Z" = X+(Y/60)+(Z/3600)
  • for S, add "-" to lat; for N, assume "+"
  • for W, add "-" to long; for E, assume "+"
Note: lat and long should have the same number of decimal places (using trailing zeroes if applicable). If one is present, so should the other be.
Glad to get to the bottom of that one. I think as they are not displaying yet I will leave them alone as there is no way of checking the outcome at this time. Cheers felix 09:21, 8 December 2010 (EST)
Try asking in Wikitravel talk:ITravelFree and in Wikitravel:Geocoding--I believe they should be used somewhere. --DenisYurkin 16:32, 8 December 2010 (EST)

Paris/1st arrondissement

Hi Denis, I notice you found the Jolly Hotel Lotti a little too touty and cut it out of the article all together. I must admit I considered the same remedy but then I found that (potential) action too hard to reconcile with the general touty style of the majority of the other sleep listings, especially those in the Mid-range. Rather than go through all of them and de-tout or at least flatten them a little I instead just edited the Jolly listing down to a similar level of enthusiasm. They nearly all seem to be struck with the list of attractions curse. I am still wondering who would name a hotel the Jolly Hotel Lotti but setting that aside are you sure it was not a bit rash to delete it, they may have just been imitating the style of the others. No skin off my nose either way, just a comment. Cheers-- felix 12:35, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

Personally I don't find any business listing for a hotel or restaurant added by its business owner/employee/agent as adding value to Wikitravel. Almost every time I meet such a listing I nuke it. Pruning existing listings is bit more difficult and time-consuming, so I do that more rarely.
There was a discussion with my opinion on this detailed somewhere in Wikitravel talk: namespace--I can find a link if you want. --DenisYurkin 18:40, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
Hi Denis, I recall stumbling over a discussion between yourself and Peter, that may have been it. Not to worry as I fully understand your POV. I find I fluctuate a little on the matter, I must admit sometimes I feel like nuking the lot especially when they are persistent in embellishment and ludicrous claims. Surely not all the hotels in a city can be the best one. The Indian and some Malaysian articles are a good way to test your inner resilience to the absurd. Frankly the only thing of value in the listing you deleted was the address, a URL and the phone number. The rest was a list of local attractions and some promo nonsense. You will not be receiving any disagreement from me on your actions. The whole sleep list is infected with the same and really if that one goes then I have to question why others the in the same style should remain. Some may argue it gives the traveller a starting point for others to develop later. I find my opinion varies with the article, sometimes it is the business owners, other times a very flowery style just seems to emerge in a particular article. I made a mental note to go back when I have some spare time.Keep up the good work Denis, cheers --

felix 06:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)


Денис, приветствую. А я так и не понял из вашего разговора с Питером, в чем нюанс блокировки Яндекса? --Digr 11:38, 2 April 2011 (EDT)

Яндекс в своё время попытался проиндексировать wikitravel. Wikitravel обнаружил большой трафик с одного хоста и забанил все сети Яндекса (включая офисные, которыми пользуются только сотрудники -- но не спайдеры). В последующих переговорах представители IB решили не снимать бан даже после обязательства индексировать очень бережно, не перегружая сервера -- "Яндекс как поисковик никогда не приносил нам существенного трафика, а значит лишний раз нагружать наши сервера и платить за bandwidth нам ещё долго будет неоправданно". Примерно так. --DenisYurkin 14:13, 2 April 2011 (EDT)
См. также User talk:Grinski#Russian version of Wikitravel. --DenisYurkin 15:32, 2 April 2011 (EDT)
Понятно, спасибо. Действительно замкнутый круг, и IB по большому счету русский раздел долго не будет интересен. Digr 00:11, 3 April 2011 (EDT)



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