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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Travel topics"

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(article(s) on shopping overall)
(Airlines travel topic)
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::: See [http://www.flyerwiki.net/ FlyerWiki] or [http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page FlyerGuide] for examples.  (Unfortunately, FW is licensed CC by-nc-nd 3.0...  which, incidentally, is a totally crazy license, how can a wiki be no-derivatives!?) [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] 23:03, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
 
::: See [http://www.flyerwiki.net/ FlyerWiki] or [http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page FlyerGuide] for examples.  (Unfortunately, FW is licensed CC by-nc-nd 3.0...  which, incidentally, is a totally crazy license, how can a wiki be no-derivatives!?) [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] 23:03, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
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As I frequently see attempts in VFD to create articles on airlines, and most of them end up with ''Delete'' outcome, I'm here again with my original proposal. Anyone else interested in creating and maintaining the [[Airlines]] article?
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As for "What would we put in the article", I think at least objective things helpful in choosing an airline will be a good starting point. Seat pitch per airplane type; typical service and meals set per type of travel (i.e. longhaul, overatlantic etc)--and anything else which is objective but can't be easily sticked into any single destination guide. --[[User:DenisYurkin|DenisYurkin]] 19:48, 1 September 2010 (EDT)

Revision as of 23:52, 1 September 2010

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Contents

Purpose

Yes, this is a hopelessly inadequate page. Yes, "Travel topics" opens up a lot of slippery slopes. I'm completely boggled as to what to do with this stuff, so I'm kind of dumping it here so people don't have to edit the Main Page just to post a travel topic. --Evan 14:52, 6 Jan 2004 (EST)

I actually like this page. So far it looks like, well, a collection of general travel advice. Stuff that's useful no matter where you go. This has a definite place in a travelguide (especially a global one), and I am convinced that it can be maintained in a useful state. That said, I'd have one piece of Palm PDA based software that I think is a must-have for any traveller. Should I add a "Software and Electronics" subpage, or are there any objections? I do realize that there are a million applications for travelers; most are really redundant and/or useless. What I am talking about specifically is "Metro"; it's pretty unique afaik in that it has line maps for 100+ cities' subway systems. I have used it repeatedly (for example in Paris) and it's a lifesaver. And it's free too. :-) --Nils 11:26 March 10th, 2004 (CET)

Rollback

I rolled back a number of external links on this page. I don't think that's what Travel topics is about. --Evan 21:48, 19 Jul 2004 (EDT)

It isn't. The links were spam. Yet another reason not to soak up our extlink policy O:-) -- Nils 05:15, 20 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Wikitravel Expedition? Travellers' Tips? - Health

[Moved from Travellers' pub by Hypatia 18:02, 16 Dec 2004 (EST)]

Another thought: I've just been adding some Egypt-specific info regarding Stay Healthy on the Egypt page.... Was suddenly struck by the thought that a lot of general information could be unnecessarily duplicated in many parts of Wikitravel in the future..... Without taking away the need for country / location-specific health information, would people consider it a worthwhile idea providing general advice and relevant links for a number of common travel ailments - things like dehydration, heat / sunstroke, some of the more obvious diseases, etc......? This could be set up as a Wikitravel Expedition, I think... and we could link to the resulting information from within various other articles. It'd be great if we could get some contributors with a medical background to pitch in..... Although I think we might still have to include some warnings and caveats..... What do others think? Pjamescowie 08:17, 1 Aug 2004 (EDT)

I think this is a good idea. Someone has independently started Yellow fever and listed it under "Diseases" in Travel topics: perhaps this subheading could be replaced with "Health" and various other articles could be added. I should add a caveat to Yellow fever in fact. -- Hypatia 14:54, 19 Oct 2004 (EDT)


Shark Attack!

Swept in from Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

On a few articles I've worked on, I've been somewhat concerned about hazardous fauna. For example, in Fremont, I didn't mention a great hike to the top of a nearby peak because I didn't really feel like adding commentary regarding the care and non-feeding of Mountain Lions. Or in the Eastern Sierra, one could mention the Lions, and also Black Bears and Rattlesnakes. In Banff and Alaska, the Grizzly Bear merits special attention.

Okay, the world is a dangerous place. So what? We have a section Stay safe in our templates to deal with these issues. But in the case of both Lions and Grizzlies, it would be helpful to do more than just say "watch out when hiking!" (For Lions, it's best to fight back, for Grizzlies, not so much) We could point to Wikipedia, but they only discuss being safe around the Lions, but not the Bears. We could include a small diatribe here in the text, but do we really want to have the same issues discussed in many articles? (The Lions are pervasive in the western half of the US and Canada. The Grizzlies are pervasive from Montana north).

It's almost as if we need a series of articles in a Stay Safe heirarchy. This could include dangerous fauna, hazards common to many places (driving in the desert issues; hiking near glaciers; tornados). But it would also really suck to try to maintain this stuff which is only peripherally related to our real purposes in life.

Any ideas or opinions about how to handle this? -- Colin 15:22, 24 Sep 2004 (EDT)

I don't think there is any reason to cover it any more than superficially. To cover it accurately can often be very difficult. Generally there is very little consensus other than give them lots of space and don't feed them. Wikitravel does not exist in a vacuum, and much of this information can vary depending on local conditions. Most of these dangers have information available locally about them, so pointing people to that information is the best in my opinion. (IE "Be sure to stop at the ranger station and find out about hiking in cougar territory.") Where a danger is common for a region add a little bit about it in the Cope section is probably appropriate (I plan on adding a Black Bear comment to British Columbia.) You can then link back to it in your article. -- Webgeer 18:36, Sep 30, 2004 (EDT)
A black bear comment? I'd be more concerned with the Grizzlies and Cougars in BC. Black bears do more property damage though. -- Colin 20:18, 30 Sep 2004 (EDT)
You're much more likely to encouter a black bear than a Grizzly (orders of magnitude more likely). Except in very exceptional circumstances cougars encouters are unheard of (Cougars are not really shouldn't be something you worry about unless there is a cougar that is behaving strangely in the area). Black bears should not be dismissed. A black bear can run faster than you, is stronger than you and is perfectly capable of killing you. In BC from 1978 to 1996 10 people were killed and 78 injured by black bears, 4 were killed and 34 were injured by Grizzlies, while 3 people were killed by cougars in that time period (for comparison 13 people were killed by moose, 36 people were killed by horses). This really shouldn't be over blown. These are really small hazards in the scheme of things. Almost all of the dangerous bear encounters happened in the back country. For most casual hikers, much more dangerous is going hiking without proper resources, getting lost, mosquitos, etc. I live in North Vancouver on the edge of popular hiking mountains. In the summer the search and rescue team goes in a couple of times a week to rescue people who got lost, got cought in the forest at nightfall, were injured (often doing something foolheardy), unprepared for a weather change, or other similar happening. There is probably on average 2 or 3 deaths a year in the area. As far back as I can remember none of these were as a result of an encounter with wildlife. -- Webgeer 02:10, Oct 1, 2004 (EDT)
I totally agree that traffic accidents are a far more serious source of danger. Really this came about by me thinking "there's this great hike in the hills near Fremont." And there is are two sources of danger doing that, one of which can kill. And I do think it overblown to add a warning about Mountain Lions to the Fremont article, but a simple one line reference with a link to a different article seems okay to me. And yeah, driving is the most likely way for any traveller to die, I think. But that's true everywhere (but should be emphasized anyway.) So this is more about making short references in articles to dangers one may not have considered. (Mountain Lions don't like to be seen; so not everyone knows Vancouver Island has the highest concentration of them in North America). Anyway, I think I'll try and make a sample in my sandbox to play with, and we'll see what people think. -- Colin 02:54, 1 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Template:Shark

Does Wikitravel support template boxes that could be imported into multiple articles? So something like {{shark}} in the content would magically turn into a right-aligned floating box on dealing with Jaws. Jpatokal 06:14, 25 Sep 2004 (EDT)
Yes it does. See any stub. -phma 12:12, 25 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Okay, so more seriously... does it make sense to have a page like "Dangerous Fauna" and then have a section per danger? I really don't like the idea of one article for each little annoyance. I'd prefer to make it country or continent specific though. So how about Dangerous Fauna of North America? Then, in a Stay Safe section, we could just add something like:

Dangerous fauna in this area include Lions, Grizzly Bears, and Hippies

-- Colin 20:26, 30 Sep 2004 (EDT)

So I wrote one possibility up in my Sandbox as an example User:Cjensen/sandbox/Dangerous fauna of North America and I'm interested in feedback of all kinds. -- Colin 03:52, 1 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Fauna is only dangerous if you don't respect its behaviour and habitat. A mention in the Stay Safe section sounds good but you could also put it in the Respect. For example: Some areas of New Zealand have problems with seals on (and off) the beaches. They will attack and bite people. But people can do the seals more harm by picking up their pups and taking them home because the pups look lonely or lost on the beach where they live. What's the more dangerous fauna - seal or human? Also I think Wildlife is a better term for WikiTravel's writing style. -- Huttite 08:24, 1 Oct 2004 (EDT)
I agree that Wildlife is way better than fauna in matching our style, Would dropping dangerous from the page title help make it useful for non-dangerous animal info? -Colin 23:17, 4 Oct 2004 (EDT)

I'd like to wait a bit on this and see how the disease stuff (Malaria, Yellow fever, etc.) works out and then come back to this. -- Colin 02:42, 22 Dec 2004 (EST)


The 43 folders wiki is collecting travel tips. I wonder what would happen if I merged the 2 pages of travel tips? --DavidCary 13:05, 26 May 2005 (EDT)


Itineraries

I just added Wikitravel:List of itineraries to the Travel topics page -- it doesn't seem to me like the best place to put this topic, but it doesn't seem to be linked from anywhere else, and on the Main Page itineraries are being listed under the Travel Topics heading. If there is a better place to put this, please move it, but I would argue it should be given a prominent placement as suggested itineraries are an important part of planning any trip. -- Wrh2 03:32, 8 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Should all Itineraries have {{traveltopic}} applied?

Smoking

I just noticed someone added an article about Smoking under the Stay Healthy section. Somehow I do not think that is appropriate. I think it best fits under the Special needs etc... heading as smoking is a lifestyle choice that has health impacts, not a health issue. While I would hesitate to suggest it is in the same league as some of the other Special Needs etc. topics, the way smokers are being treated in some countries indicates that many health professionals think of smoking as a nicotine addiction and therefore a disability. The other alternative is to have a topic heading called Habits and Addictions or else have a Respect or Stay safe heading. -- Huttite 07:49, 8 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Hi. We certainly consider it a health issue. That said I would suggest separating the article that Smoking points to currently into two articles, one Smoke-free zones or something like that for those of us who are interested in travelling to a country where we can go to a bar without having to put up with other people's smoke, and another, perhaps Smoking indoors for people who want to travel to someplace where they can smoke at each other to their heart's content. -- Mark 08:42, 8 Jun 2005 (EDT)
I added the article. It put it under Stay Healthy because that is where it is in the destination articles. Either way we should see if we can agree on where to put and then make sure Smoking and the destinations are consistent. If we put it under Special needs at lest just on Travel Topics/Stay Healthy we should have a reference: Smoking: see Special Needs, also each destination.
But I do not consider it a special need not to get allergic reactions and lung cancer from passive smoking. --elgaard 09:35, 8 Jun 2005 (EDT)
About splitting it up. I do not think we can split it into just two articles. Maybe we can keep a the list somwhat sorted so smokers can read from the bottom (or top if we sort it that way). There is probably places with smoking in bars, but not restaurants. Smoking in hotel rooms, public transportation, etc can also be regulated.
Mysore (region) says "Smoking and alcohol drinking is not allowed in the village, except inside your room in the guesthouses."
India say: "Except in major cities (and only in trendy places or in high society) women do not smoke."
Bhutan goes further than just bars and restaurants: "The sale of tobacco products is totally banned (foreign tourists and NGOs are exempt, though it is illegal for them to sell tobacco to locals), and smoking in public areas is a fineable offence." --elgaard 09:50, 8 Jun 2005 (EDT)
Then again I would be happy with For smokers and For non-smokers articles. There would be some overlap, but that would not be a problem. I think both articles would end up covering the same places but from different POV's (Ie for smokers: In XXX smoking is not allowed on trains and in restaurants, but tobacco is good and cheap and you can smoke in bars and outdoord). I just think we should wait until a smoker adds an article just for smokers. --elgaard 10:25, 8 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Folk Art

I have been working lately on a number of pages for places that are known for "folk art," particularly American Indian (or, if you prefer, Native American) arts and crafts. The themes that keep coming up in those articles are so closely related that it seems to me as if there should be a folk-art topical page that people can refer to, to be aware of the folk art of other regions and also to keep from repeating some of the warnings about replicas, ripoffs, haggling, etc. How to haggle is at least covered in such a topical page, but I don't see most of the others I can think of. At the same time, I do not feel qualified to write a general folk-art page, although I know a lot about the specific Indian-art topic. Any suggestions on how to proceed? -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:15, 11 Sep 2005 (EDT)

We do have some travel topic pages for special interests (eg. Scuba diving), and I could also easily imagine a folk art itinerary looping through places of interest. But this is a bit of a thin line to walk: articles here should aim to provide information for travel, not just duplicating what Wikipedia says about the topic. When in doubt, plunge forward and we'll see how it turns out... Jpatokal 11:06, 11 Sep 2005 (EDT)
Point well taken, but note that the Wikipedia article on the subject is a stub, and at that a rather extreme one given the potential richness of the topic. I may indeed "plunge forward" but would like to get a sense of what people would like to see and avoid. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 11:43, 11 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Linking from destination guides to travel topics

moved to here from User_talk:202.47.247.157

Hi.

You changed a few dozen pages so that they link from the word "haggle" to Haggling. We don't often link from destination guides to travel topics, and I'd rather we talk about it before making the change to dozens of articles. Please don't continue. --Evan 18:31, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)

Should I revert them?
How about topics such as altitude sickness, dengue fever/malaria/yellow fever, hitchhiking, pickpocketing, scams and scuba?

Do we need a "Topic:" namespace?

Since travel topics are different from normal articles, and also since some topic names might conflict with place names (see Hot springs), should we create a new namespace for travel topics? The advantages are that it would help with organization and make it more clear what was a topic and what was not, the disadvantage (that I can see) is that it might be a slippery slope that could lead to excuses to creating lots of other namespaces for itineraries and other such items. Thoughts? -- Ryan 15:48, 5 March 2006 (EST)

Not clear to me that setting up a namespace really solves a problem; looking at the list of topics on the main page here, "hot springs" seems like the only one with a potential need for disambiguation. OTOH, does it do any harm to set up such a namespace? The slippery-slope concern doesn't seem too compelling in this case. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 15:54, 5 March 2006 (EST)
I don't think there's a compelling need, as namespace conflicts are rare... and the software would, confusingly enough, actually consider Hot springs (topic) and Hot Springs (place) to be different articles. Jpatokal 09:42, 6 March 2006 (EST)
Perhaps this could be revisited in the future if there is any interest, and if we end up with a lot of travel topics. You're right that with less than a hundred articles there isn't currently a pressing need. -- Ryan 19:02, 8 March 2006 (EST)

Indicating Travel topics

I couldn't decide where to stick this, so I'll just bring it up here since it's related to the above. It was pointed out to me that folks are adding "This is a WikiTravel travel topic." type messages to the top of travel topic pages. At first I thought this was fine and dandy, but it turns out that there isn't a standard way to do this. Some folks are using isIn breadcrumbs, which I'm pretty sure we dont want, and some folks are just putting it in by hand, which is going to lead to inconsistant text and isn't machine-friendly. Comments? Suggestions? Links to where this has already been worked out? Thanks Majnoona 10:22, 21 April 2006 (EDT)

The only problem I see with using IsIn is that it doesn't work for articles that are also "in" a geographic region. Otherwise, it does exactly what breadcrumbs do on other sites, showing where the page sits in the site's logical hierarchy. The simplest alternative is a Template:Traveltopic, which would easily standardize the language on each page. Another option to consider is using MediaWiki's categories (and subcategories) feature to autogenerate the index to these articles (instead of the manually-updated Travel topics page). - Todd VerBeek 10:36, 21 April 2006 (EDT)
Yeah, I really think tha using isIn will muddy the waters... I'm gong to go ahead and create a mediawiki template. Discussion can continue there. Majnoona 14:06, 21 April 2006 (EDT)

That's not a bug, that's a feature...

I've exploited the software oddity that Jpatokal notes to deal with the hot-springs issue; there is now a Hot Springs disambiguation page and a Hot springs topical page. This is a kluge, to be sure, but lacking a Wikitravel:consensus in favor of a namespace, it'll do for now. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:27, 31 March 2006 (EST)

Places to do $WHATEVER

Swept in from the Pub:

Would it be unreasonable to start the potentially endless project of having pages dedicated to listing travel destinations for particular activities or phenomena? Instead of organized by place, organized by activity? Places to hike. Places to see Mexican wrestling. Locations of reported extraterrestrial activity. Great coral reefs for divers. Haunted houses. Tequila bars. Used record/bookstores. Etc. The point would not be to be exhaustive, which would be impossible, but rather to provide useful snapshots of the world for travellers interested in finding certain things or activities in whatever part of the world they head to.--69.234.181.199 06:03, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Yes, please! --Evan 08:29, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Yes, it's unreasonable, you mean? :-) I assume you mean "plunge forward," and I will put down the marker on an article on "Buying Folk Art" that I've been mentally organizing for a while. Note that there was a lukewarm reception for this idea in Talk:Travel topics, but now with an endorsement from Da Man ... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:04, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I've been thinking about indexes a lot lately. Maybe there's a way we could make this sort of thing semi-automatic. Perhaps it should be possible to create an index page from a set of search results, with the index page editor personally vetting the results for relavancy and adding any other pages appropriate to the given index? Just a though. -- 158.232.2.32 09:52, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)
This sounds like what categories are intended for — and unlike indexes they work automatically. Jpatokal 03:35, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Scuba

Note that Scuba diving has a slightly different format: places are listed at the top and a description of the activity itself is below. I think this would work better with some short reviews of the places in the article. For example (scuba diving):

Hypatia 03:17, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Go right ahead, the listing is barebones because I was too lazy to punch in descriptions. It should also be categorized by the type of diving, general difficulty level, etc. Jpatokal 03:35, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I'll do the ones I know or know of. Hypatia 02:38, 28 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Localized travel topics

Okay, so travel topics are very real now, but I'm quite inclined to think that we should stick to geographical hierarchy whenever a topic is localized. In other words, geographical hierarchy is our preferred way of organizing the articles and travel topics such as Rail travel in North America and Hitchhiking in Japan, for instance, should be sub-articles of N. America and Japan, respectively (North America/Get around/Rail Travel, for instance), and not autonomous articles by themselves. I also think there should be at least some vague criteria (size?) as to when an article like that stops being a section of a (geographical) article and becomes a full article. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this too. Thanks, Ricardo (Rmx) 16:47, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

Bump. Seriously, I think that in many cases, creating separate articles on topics that are related to a specific place in our hierarchy might be preventing geographical articles to become more complete and consistent. My idea is that one of those topics should start as an article section and then moved to a separate article when it gets too big. Or at least, such topics should always be created as a link on the geographical article so that it won't exist detached from its place in hierarchy. Ricardo (Rmx) 20:36, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Imported from Talk:Japan

The issue is how much information does there need to be in a country's continent's "get around" section? The NA/ EU articles allow for the excessive amount of information to be available for travellers. This would be my idea for coming to a consensus:
  • Rail information should be in a country's "get around" section provided that there is little information that is available or that rail travel is of little use in that country.
  • If there is an excessive amount of information then explore the possibility (does not give a guarantee for the creation) of a [[Rail travel in xxx]] article.
The case for the European article (as an example) many travellers use rail to cross Europe. The information provided in the EU article would therefore be useful, because then the traveller knows what to expect in some cases of traveling by rail across Euroland.

Sapphire 13:41, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

Obviously when I wrote that I was talking about rail articles, but I think it could and should be applied to all travel topics. The deciding factor should be something like this if you can answer yes to these three questions make the article. "Is this information vital and important to travelers?," "Is there an excessive amount of information on this country's page that this information would be enough to constitute a new article?" and "Would this information be easier for users to use and for editors and contributors to maintain if it had its own article?" Sapphire 21:40, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Although I don't think the articles should be true subarticles (as in North America/Get around/Rail Travel, I agree that for most of the "____ing in ____" topics, it makes sense to treat them – via IsIn tags and linking – as sub-topics of geographic articles. I don't think it makes sense to shoehorn an article such as Hitchhiking in Japan into the "Get around" section of Japan, or Tornado safety into the "Stay safe" section of North America; at some point a topic gets big enough to be separated out, just like regions get separated out of large countries, and districts get separated from big cites. Yes, there's a chance that the existence of semi-autonomous articles like these slows the development of their would-be parent articles, but on the other hand, requiring them to remain part of geographic articles themselves would limit their development. I think Sapphire's criteria are good ones for deciding whether/when to break out a geographic sub-topic, and I support the idea of associating them with their geographic "parent" articles. - 11:06, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

Articles about diseases

Please see the discussion on Talk:Tropical diseases prior to creating new articles on diseases. The argument has been made in the past that it is a bit of a slippery slope to create articles for every specific health issue out there - this is a travel site, so there should be general guides, but it is not a medical encyclopedia. The suggested approach in the past has been to write a few paragraphs on the Tropical diseases page about vaccinations, precautions, symptoms, etc, and only if more detailed information is needed should a separate article be created. -- Ryan 01:53, 8 April 2006 (EDT)

Anybody home?

something wrong I think

Uh, can you be more specific? There are many people 'home' ;-) Majnoona 10:58, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Hi Maj - see the history on this page. There's a spambot that repeatedly spams it with phrases like "nice site" and such. I do believe the confused contributor above may be written in Python ;) -- Ryan 11:02, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Snake safety?

Wonder if there are enough destinations with venomous snakes to justify an article on this topic. On the one hand, I have seen some bad advice in some destination articles that needed to be revised, and some people get so freaky about rattlesnakes, etc., that they miss out on good stuff or spend their time at an attraction freaking out rather than enjoying it. OTOH, it might be hard to write a useful article on this subject that spans the areas of interest. There are also slippery-slope concerns, although I think they can be dealt with. Opinions? P.S. This inquiry was not occasioned by the mention of "Python" in the previous section. :-) -- Bill-on-the-Hill 13:51, 5 August 2006 (EDT)

I do have a friend that will not leave America, because he thinks every country except for the US has killer snakes that are around every corner. Despite my friend's very annoying phobia I don't think it should really constitute an article. Also, if we let this slide someone may eventually come along and add Spider safety, Africanized bee safety, or my favorite Goat safety (for when a goat tries to eat you at a zoo or farm). -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:56, 5 August 2006 (EDT)
Well, the phenomenon you cite is exactly why I wonder if there should be such an article, because there are lots of people with this particular phobia. (I do not claim immunity myself; I had all sorts of trouble with it as a kid, and the first time I ever got rattled at on a hiking/climbing trip, I really freaked.) Fewer seem troubled by spiders or killer bees or goats. And realistically, there are parts of the world where snake safety really is an issue and snakebite is a significant cause of death. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:23, 5 August 2006 (EDT)
At one time I'd proposed having animal safety articles for major regions -- see example. I stopped working on it when Tropical diseases was written to wait and see if that would provide any helpful experience to guide the animal topics. I think regional articles (like Tropical diseases or Animals of the US) covering multiple issues are more useful than worldwide articles like (Cryptosporidium or Goat Safety) -- Colin 15:52, 5 August 2006 (EDT)
What exactly would Snake safety cover? True, a rattler's bit or cobra's could kill, but doesn't that kind of information fit better in a "stay safe" section or what about a generalized Animal safety, like Colin had suggested? I agree that information for treating a snake or goat bite (I was forced to give up my coat at the Cincinnati Zoo because a goat was hungry. That's the story behind the somewhat sarcastic comment.) but I think it would be wise to make that type of information in a generalized article. Maybe, I'm wrong and I'll gladly retract my objections, but I'd at least like to know what your vision for the article is(I.e. Which topics would be covered in the article?). -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 12:00, 6 August 2006 (EDT)
Fair question, and I don't have a concise, well-thought-out answer yet, but I can imagine the following sections (not necessarily in this order):
  • Where might a traveler have snake encounters? This would both identify the "snaky" areas of the world, and give some sense of where, within those areas, encounters are most likely.
  • "Myth and Reality." Try to provide a realistic assessment of just how severe the risks are, and where -- many travelers have heard of the rattlesnakes of the American West and the unbelievable potency of Australia's venomous snakes, yet neither of these areas figures prominently in world snakebite totals, let alone fatal or life-threatening snakebites.
  • How to reduce the likelihood of snake encounters without cutting into your enjoyment of the trip. Brief discussion of snake habits, with some generalization, some specifics regarding types of dangerous snakes and the areas they inhabit. Things a hiker, climber, photographer, outhouse user, etc., can do to minimize unwanted encounters.
  • What to do if you do encounter a snake. This is actually a rather ticklish subject, because behaviors that a Texan has learned to help him defuse a rattlesnake encounter may be exactly the wrong thing to do if he's on a trip to southeast Asia. Some real expertise from around the world would be needed for this one.
  • How to get help if you do get bit. It's obviously not our place to give medical advice, but we can identify resources in some of the more significantly "snaky" countries and regions.
I'm just free-associating here, and these may not be the right topics. One definite goal, in any event, is to have a common resource that other articles can point to (as in Tornado safety). Does that help? -- Bill-on-the-Hill 12:44, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

General travel topic articles

Based on Bill's question above about a "snake safety" article, and based also on the fact that we don't currently have any concrete criteria for "what is a valid travel topic" other than "could this ever be useful to someone", I've been thinking about how we might handle travel topics better. I think the biggest problem is that there isn't really any organization for travel topics - with geographic articles the rule is to put information about an attraction into the parent article, and only when that info becomes "large and complex" (per the Wikitravel:What is an article? guidelines) should a new article be considered. In the case of travel topics we don't always have a general article, and as a result we get new articles on very specific subjects that sometimes only contain only a sentence or two.

To address this issue, would it be useful to create general travel topic articles that roughly correspond to the existing Wikitravel article headings, and to then create a guideline that new travel topics should start out in the general parent topic article, and only be moved to a separate article when the information becomes large and complex? In Bill's example above the information about snake safety could start out in a "Travel safety" article. If we get a lot of information about safety involving animals (snake safety, bear safety, crocodile safety) we could perhaps move that information to a more general "Animal safety" article. If in the future we have details about safety with snakes in different countries, THEN we would create the more-specific "Snake safety" topic.

I haven't gone through all of the article headings, but here is an incomplete list of suggested general topic names, with the corresponding article heading and a list of existing travel topic articles that would fall under the topic heading:

Thoughts? Would anyone be opposed if I started creating a few of these high-level topics as examples? -- Ryan 14:52, 5 August 2006 (EDT)

(tumbleweeds roll by) Bumping this up onto the recent changes page again to give people one more chance to comment... -- Ryan 13:31, 7 August 2006 (EDT)
Support. Although I'm not confident that it would actually prevent "useless" topics from coming about, I guess that would be an excellent way of organizing the current and future topics. -- Ricardo (Rmx) 14:10, 7 August 2006 (EDT)
I definitely agree that having a better hierarchy wouldn't prevent "useless" topics from being created, but much like we redirect an article about a museum to the appropriate city article, having general topic articles would give us some place to redirect something like Students without having to debate whether or not to keep the article as something that "might be useful to someone". -- Ryan 14:26, 7 August 2006 (EDT)
Would a "travel planning" topic also work as a general travel topic? That would give us somewhere to redirect things like "Last Minute Travel" that an anonymous contributor created but is currently up for vfd. -- Ryan 15:40, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Layout

~

Weird modern religious structures

Archived from the Pub:

Take me to your cheerleader

So one of my many strange hobbies is visiting modern but extravagant religious structures, preferably bizarre ones built by dodgy cults: a few poster children include the Maha Dhammakaya Cetiya in Rangsit, the entirety of Guinsa and the Akshardham Cultural Complex here in Delhi. I'd like to tie these together as a Travel topic -- but can somebody think of a title that is descriptive and won't get me a fatwa? Modern religious structures is too bland and could include your neighborhood church... Jpatokal 03:20, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Cult architecture?
One man's cult is another's sect... and if (say) the Roman Catholic Church were to start building UFO reception centers like the Dhammakaya guys do, I'd be all for including them on the list. Jpatokal 04:08, 18 December 2006 (EST)
"Seeing unusual religious structures"? Leaving open the question of whether the structure is unusual, or the religion... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:30, 18 December 2006 (EST)
The truly amazing thing here is the example of humans obsession with putting signs on everything. Do one really need a UFO sign on a building that is already UFO shaped? --Nick 04:11, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

IsIn

So, the IsIn template includes RDF code that says, in part, "This article is about a place with the same name." Typically only destination guides can make that claim; travel topics are about a issue or an activity, but not a place (although the issue or activity might be tied to some place, like Discount airlines in Europe).

About one out of eight travel topics were using "IsIn" to closely related the travel topic with a destination. It wouldn't be that big a deal, but I've written other code that depends on only places being called places. So, I've removed the "IsIn" templates from travel topics, and replaced them with a "related" template, which is probably more appropriate.

If for some reason we want to have breadcrumb menus on travel topics, that's fine, but we have to do it a different way than using "IsIn". --Evan 22:28, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

Move to Wikitravel: namespace?

Should this article be moved into the Wikitravel namespace like Wikitravel:Itineraries? Or should Itineraries be moved out of the Wikitravel namespace? – cacahuate talk 15:50, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

I vote for the latter. --DenisYurkin 16:31, 24 June 2007 (EDT)
Me too. See the first topic in discussion at Wikitravel_talk:List_of_itineraries. Pashley 18:55, 24 June 2007 (EDT)
Me three. List of itineraries/phrasebooks should also be de-namespaced -- they're not meta-articles, they're actual information. Jpatokal 02:07, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
I'd say this article should stay where it is and the lists — Wikitravel:List of phrasebooks and Wikitravel:List_of_itineraries — should definitely be de-namespaced. I wouldn't move Wikitravel:Itineraries since it is more of a how-to for writers than info for travellers. Pashley 07:11, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
Itineraries and phrasebooks can and should be linked from the destination guides they're associated with. Travel topics cannot. That's why the first don't have a list in the main namespace, and the latter does. I'd rather this didn't change; I don't think "List of..." articles are that useful for the traveller. They're mainly useful for project organization. Unfortunately, we don't have another way to navigate to travel topics yet... any ideas on that? --Evan 10:54, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
Travel topics cannot be linked from their associated destination guides? I don't understand. Why wouldn't it be possible to link Ohio prehistoric sites from Ohio? --Peter Talk 13:13, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
Certainly travel topics can be linked to, but we don't want to overdo it. If every article that could linked to Pickpockets, Begging, Packing list and other generic articles, then we'd add an awful lot of links for not much value.
However I think that is unimportant. Jani has it right above: "List of itineraries/phrasebooks should also be de-namespaced -- they're not meta-articles, they're actual information." They are another way of seeing travel, and the more of those we can provide the better. Pashley 23:55, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
Where do we stand on this issue? Shall we de-namespace Wikitravel:Itineraries and Wikitravel:List of phrasebooks? --Peter Talk 00:12, 13 September 2007 (EDT)
Go for it. Jpatokal 00:28, 13 September 2007 (EDT)
Yes, but I think it is Wikitravel:List_of_itineraries and not Wikitravel:Itineraries that needs to be de-namespaced. (Isn't that last word a lovely example of the English rule that "All nouns can be verbed", by the way?) Pashley 00:36, 13 September 2007 (EDT)
I have now moved Wikitravel:List of itineraries to List of itineraries and Wikitravel:List of phrasebooks to List of phrasebooks. --Peter Talk 18:19, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

New Year Travel

How stub can be a stub? :-)

Is it OK to move User:DenisYurkin/New Year Travel to the main namespace and add it to the Travel topics list? Or what needs to be added / fixed before doing that? (clearly, the intro before the first heading will be removed / placed elsewhere).

--DenisYurkin 18:50, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

I don't see how this can be useful really, if it grows at all it will likely turn into a long and awkward list. The Hungary one that is linked from there makes a little more sense because it's specific, but this one seems too broad in scope. If you really wanted a broad one that covers the whole world, I could see maybe doing something more along the lines of "Popular New Years destinations" or something, where it points to large celebrations like NY Times Square, etc. But personally I think even that would be marginally useful – cacahuate talk 23:29, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
As for marginality: I believe that people seeking advice for their New Year trip are looking for something unthought-of / off-the-beaten-path rather than really popular destinations. I'm not sure about US, but New Year is definitely a major holiday (and a reason for an escapade from the motherland) for Russians, and judging by our several years of NY travel, also popular among Western Europeans. --DenisYurkin 17:47, 29 June 2008 (EDT)


Shopping articles

What things cost

copied in from the vfd page

Evaluating every country on the local cost of two American products converted to the American dollar seems to me to be not only outside of our scope but also a rather myopic, biased and under-informative perspective. Plus, who is going to keep this thing up to date? BusinessWeek? Pricing information already given in the country articles and in the individual listings should already give the traveler a more reasonable idea of what to expect. Except, of course, for those thousands of people who travel the world smoking Marlboro Reds and eating nothing but Big Macs.

  • Delete. Texugo 21:00, 17 February 2008 (EST)
  • Wait and see. As it stands, this article is not a keeper. However, with a more thoughtfully chosen set of comparison items (if one is possible), I can imagine it as a valid travel topic under the "Buy" heading that actually assists the traveler -- which, after all, is what travel-topic articles are supposed to do. Let's give this one a little while to either take root or wither before deciding whether to delete it. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:12, 17 February 2008 (EST)
  • Delete. Unmaintainable list. Article is less than a month old and already more than 3 years outdated. Pack of Marlboro Reds will cost you around R20, not R14.70, Coke around R5.50, not R4.50 and a Big Mac I have no idea as I totally avoid the place. The buy section in every county is a far better place to explain local currency purchasing power. --Nick 14:42, 2 March 2008 (EST)
I agree with Nick here. This article is a nice idea, but totally unmaintainable. Delete. PerryPlanet 12:00, 31 March 2008 (EDT)
  • As it stands, delete, but the topic is valid. Rewrite? with some general summary info -- don't pay European or American prices in third world countries, eat local food to save money, cameras and electronics are cheaper in Singapore, etc. -- and have links to things like per capita GDP as an indicator of living costs and to the Business Week article. Pashley 20:49, 2 March 2008 (EST)
  • A friend of a friend, an economist at that, wrote a hilarious book called "Ten Times the Price of a Haircut". Great read on life as a UN/World Bank itinerant consultant, mostly about mismanagement and ill-conceived projects. Title is from a rule he suggests for the cost of girls anywhere. Should we include that? :-) Pashley 20:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)
  • Split into articles of destination countries quoted. --DenisYurkin 08:31, 31 March 2008 (EDT)
  • I've done the rewrite, so keep. Pashley 01:22, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
I still don't see the point. When is someone going to need this article? What are they supposed to learn? It looks like common sense reiterated to me, and it's organized like a 9th grade essay. Texugo 01:38, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
  • Inclined to delete. Nice idea... but... either way, let's figure it out soon, this has been here a few months now – cacahuate talk 20:06, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
  • Delete Non-maintainable. -OldPine 12:35, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
  • Discuss. I frequently see a need for 'price comparison across countries': how prices for electronics compare in US or Japan to Moscow; how prices for fashionwear compares in Milano to Moscow; how prices for jewelry or watches compare in Dubai to Moscow etc etc. How can we cater the needs like mine with Wikitravel? --DenisYurkin 18:24, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
We've been discussing for 4 months now... there seems to be a consensus to delete as far as I can tell; I think that's what we should do in the next couple days unless you've got a really convincing argument for keeping it... so far there's been none. If electronics are notably cheap in Moscow, enough so that it makes it relevant to a traveler, then we should note it on the Moscow page... we don't need a separate article to do that – cacahuate talk 16:57, 22 June 2008 (EDT)
My first point is to have a global article where I can find that for electronics I should consider Japan, not Singapore or even Moscow; for fur coats, I should go to Greece, and for quality leatherwear--to Vienna or whatever.
My second point is that facts like "X is x2 cheaper in Moscow than in New York" are irrelevant in Moscow article (as such facts don't make Moscow an attractive destination), nor they are relevant in New York (as it's a wrong place for facts on Moscow).
I've made a stub with both examples of price comparison facts I find useful, and with a short outline of where to go for specific shopping: User:DenisYurkin/Shopping around the world. Facts I already listed are mostly trivial, but I'm sure the community can contribute with much more useful. Not sure my examples will help What things cost to survive, but we still need a place for a facts like I listed. --DenisYurkin 05:06, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
Right, except that we're Wikitravel not Wikishopping. Nobody is reading our website to figure out where to go based on shopping, but they may consider picking up some electronics in Taiwan if they already happen to be going there and find out that they're cheaper than at home, which is why it makes sense to then mention that under "Buy" in Taiwan article. I understand where you're trying to go with your example there, in theory, but I really just don't see how it will be useful, in reality. I really can't see anyone looking at that and making travel decisions based on it – cacahuate talk 19:07, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
I think something along these lines is worth having. Consider the traveller going from Australia to Southeast Asia who wants a camera for the trip. Should he buy in Oz or Bangkok? How much would he save by starting his trip in Singapore and buying there? What about stereo equipment? Is that worth buying in Singapore or Hong Kong to bring home? Pashley 22:46, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
How about setting up an Incubator: namespace where we can place and discuss pages like the above--travel topics that are slippery slopes, but a clearly useful and maintainable form is still to be found--instead of just removing them? From previous history, Ferries in the Mediterranean and User:DenisYurkin/List of Ferries (and even maybe User:DenisYurkin/Paper travel guides?) might wait there for new ideas on how to make them up and running. --DenisYurkin 06:25, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
It's not really about which namespace they're in, if we allow them we allow them. I think you should do what you're already doing... try to develop it in your user page sandbox, which others can add to as well if you let them know it's ok. Hopefully then once you start actually thinking them through you'll start to see which of the ideas actually have potential and which of them will just sit around as unrealized stubs for 10 years. Ferries in the Mediterranean is another good example... you argued it out of a successful deletion nearly 6 months ago but haven't touched it since... and it still contains absolutely no info that couldn't and shouldn't already be on the individual countries' get in/out sections. Like an itinerary, those kind of articles need someone with the desire and vision to write them, or at least give a solid base to build on, otherwise they won't really get touched and become useful.
Anyhow, we're off track now... we should be discussing the article up for VFD... Pashley has a point about buying a camera, but I think pieces of advice like that are better suited to a section on Urban backpacking, or under "prepare" in a RTW itinerary, etc. Trying to have one article that points to the best place to buy hundreds of different things or that tries to be a price comparison between countries is way out of scope IMO, and leads us to another one of those lovely unmaintainable lists. I don't think it's within our scope to advise people in general about where to buy a cheap business suit or a dvd player – unless it's something very particular about that destination, in which case it's better mentioned in that country's "buy" section, where people would expect to find it... nobody is looking for an article on WT that does price comparisons on dvd players to decide where to go; but if they're already headed to Singapore, let 'em know about it in "Buy" – cacahuate talk 16:30, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
1. Article on shopping and price comparison: I can't say for US, of course. For Russian travellers, shopping is an essential part of travel (especially when they travel to Europe and US)--and I think isn't also quite a case for some Europeans. As for Russia, many-many things are x2-x3 overpriced here, but not all of them--and it's not clear before you get to the brand's original country whether it'll be a huge saver to shop overseas or not. Things get worse when you don't look for specific brand, but for generic good-quality products like fashion footwear or formal suits--you can't easily go to online shops and find out that good-quality stuff can be bought times cheaper even if you don't know a single local brand in this country.
And yes, several popular travel guides published in Russia have a heavy section of shops worth visiting for a great value for money--for general-use products, not local souvenirs or regional gourmet specialties.
2. Incubator namespace: I believe that our mission (as editors at Wikitravel) is to help anyone sharing useful info to find a maintainable and long-living place and form for every piece of content we receive and find useful. Nowadays we expect visionaries to come and share--but revert any info that don't fit well into article format (like totally removing personal or single-occurrence experiences), and we VFD pages that an original author couldn't find a right form for from the first attempt.
The idea of separate namespace is to allow "wait-and see", "decide-later" scenario--not immediately considering it as "officially allowed" in here.
--DenisYurkin 17:23, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
Re: 1... still think it's out of our scope, you could build a whole wiki around world shopping; but we're only debating the :en WT right now, :ru may well have more of an audience for shopping articles
Re: 2... our mission is... actually, I think that's just about the opposite of the spirit of non-goal #7; a travel guide without a discerning eye isn't a travel guide at all, it's a yellow pages.
My main point is that there's not much that I come across that is appropriate to WT and can't fit into our already existing guide structure. My goal is to try and avoid duplicating info across our site, unless absolutely necessary, which it almost never is IMO. The primary place for any info should always be the destination guides themselves. "Lists of..." types of articles IMO only start to suck info towards them that should be aimed at the guides; or worse, put in both, duplicating info that then needs to be kept in sync.
I actually like the original idea for this article, when the info is in the articles themselves, the way I did in Bangladesh#Buy... I think that's a great use of an infobox. LP also does this, and I think it's useful... not just in gauging how much you'll be spending in a country, but also for knowing that a bottle of water should cost Rs 10, and to punch anyone who asks for Rs 100.
So.... then the article was re-written into its current format, and as it stands now, I still think that everything in it (and that will likely be added to it in the future) has a place elsewhere... breaking it down: any relevant info in the opening section and "Cheaper countries" should be (and some already is) in Money#Costs. Info in the "Electronics" section should be primarily in the individual country articles, and then perhaps touched on in any appropriate itineraries, as I said above about Pashley's point on cameras.
I agree that vfd'ing this the day it was created was maybe a bit rash... it could have been discussed and guided on the talk page first into an appropriate focus or to a different place on the site. I have no problem letting some things sit around and see how they develop, much like Bill says above, but I'd just like to move this one along because a) it seems clear to me that there's better places for the info, and b) I know that you're allergic to conclusions :) – cacahuate talk 23:58, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
  1. I agree that this specific article in its current form is not maintainable or practical enough.
  2. What is the best place and way to continue this discussion on other forms of shopping/pricing-centric articles? (clearly a vfd discussion page is not a best place for that)
  3. At this point it looks logical to consider: (a) Shopping Destinations article -- places where people head primarily for shopping (I can name only a few destinations, but they do exist), (b) price comparison "Moscow vs rest of world" looks for me like the easiest way to plunge forward; pitifully such info will be available only on :ru (until we find a way to incorporate it to :en); (c) probably, Tips on Shopping article.
  4. Generally, between-the-lines thesis "this is non-goal at :en, try at :ru" alarms me--looks like Wikitravel is still very westerner-centric.
--DenisYurkin 19:39, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Not Western-centric, traveler-centric, which was the conclusion of the conversation you just linked to as well. I'm not advocating that you create those on Russian WT, I personally would like to see them nowhere... but, I said that in response to you saying that it's something Russian's are very likely to find useful... so perhaps that will be one of the various differences between ru and en.

The best place to discuss further (and where this convo should be copied) is Talk:Travel topics. I'd also argue against a "Moscow against the rest of the world", since that would very logically just be placed at Moscow#Buy.

RE: "tips on shopping", we already have haggling... I'm struggling to think of more angles that can't be covered there that don't segue back into prices comparing. But for sure if you think of some bring it up at Talk:Travel topics.

So I'm thinking we delete, any other arguments for keeping? Last call... I think I may copy to Pashley's userspace in case she wishes to keep it for future thought? – cacahuate talk 22:58, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

"Moscow against rest of the world": when you visit the rest of the world with Moscow as home region / Moscow prices as reference for comparison, it's more logical to seek info on prices and good deals in a specific region, not a one-article-cover-all "what things cost in Moscow" which give no idea on which products can be found in a specific country/city--whether overpriced in Russia or entirely not available. --DenisYurkin 04:20, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
"Tips on shopping": travel destinations; duty-free air/port shops; tax-free shopping; "If you buy with a Singapore-only warranty, what can you do with this electronics at home?" to name a few. --DenisYurkin 04:20, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
Re: Moscow, I still don't see how that's different than what we just argued into deletion above, but if you feel strongly about it, write the article in your userspace and see what others think... I seem to be the only one who cares enough to keep arguing about this so I'll stop for now.
Re: Tips on shopping:
  • travel destinations = already addressed at length in above discussion
  • duty-free/tax free... what would you say beyond a one-liner "Most international airports have duty-free shops – tacky jewelry, souvenirs and vodka await you"? (That could go in Money#Costs btw, but if a concise "Shopping" article was ever created could go there instead)
  • country-specific warranties: yeah, useful... but not as a list... as a one-liner "Note that many products warranties are only valid in the country purchased, so you're up shit creek if it breaks back home".
I'm not saying "no way can we ever have an article on shopping", I personally would just like to see a tight, concise article, if one is created, that doesn't duplicate info that should be elsewhere, isn't full of useless fluff, and isn't a "list of" anything. So far, IMO, you've gathered about 2 sentences worth of semi-valuable info that doesn't fall into one of those traps. But again, if I'm alone here, I'll shut up – cacahuate talk 12:56, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
Delete. I've been leaning delete for a long time on this, but kept quiet since Sandy did a nice reworking of the article. But ultimately, I see any serious effort to analyze differences in the real costs of goods across countries to be beyond the scope of Wikitravel. For more casual analysis, along the lines of "digital cameras are both more advanced and cheaper in Japan than elsewhere, so if you don't mind the Japanese interface, buy your cameras here," can just go in the country buy sections—I tend to think its best not to duplicate that info in a travel topic.
I could perhaps envision an article that broke down into sections by type of goods (i.e., clothes, high-tech goods, fine dining, accommodations, etc.) and listed some of the best (cheapest) places in the world to get them. Off the top of my head, I certainly couldn't write that, but I could suggest Hong Kong for clothes, Japan for high-tech, fine dining might actually be at best values in North America, and that's all I've got. Such an article would be much more specific, and more resembling a list of pointers. But as is, I'm coming down on delete. --Peter Talk 01:27, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I've saved the deleted page in my personal sandbox under User:DenisYurkin/What things cost just to add context for understanding the above discussion. --DenisYurkin 13:13, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

article(s) on shopping overall

OK, I'll ask it explicitly here: what would you guys find useful in an travel topic article on Shopping? (I ask for it after a long vfd discussion with cacahuate above) --DenisYurkin 02:19, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Customs and Duty: Suggest discussion of "shopping" should be complemented by advice for wisely optimizing total costs of purchases and returning with them. Have written nearly all of the content of the "Buy" section for Saint Thomas (with considerable discussion of duty issues). But it's primarily oriented toward U.S. citizens. I'm not qualified to organize or address the topic for all countries/trade jurisdictions, but believe our readers deserve the best advice possible. Regards-john henne hennejon@aol.com.

Wow, that's really a great work! Jurisdictions behind, have you considered to write a section on packaging, optimizing and returning just overall, what applies for sure to almost every place in the world? I believe that Saint Thomas#Buy has almost enough content for it, it only takes to choose a subset that is applicable to everywhere. --DenisYurkin 08:36, 22 July 2009 (EDT)
Regrets. I've paid little attention to this page, while making many additions and edits since July to the referenced write-up. I share your inclination that "Customs and Duty" could be a major topic, as might advice with how pack to to return "safely" with various kinds of purchases. "Saint Thomas" 'Buy" is now about six full pages, with much not about buying per se. Am about to be away from home for while, but will give thought on how to organize both subjects for everyone to contribute. john henne
Having studied the current "outline", these ideas popped-up:
- Under "Travel Documents", we could use discussion that helps folks avoid being faced with paying customs duty on valuables they own before a trip and take with them.
- Under "Buy", we might have a page that discusses a "shopping strategy", "Customs, exemptions and duty", and trade-offs of shipping return purchases.
- Under "Pack", perhaps a page that addresses a "trip strategy", items & capacity going, and packing kinds of items for return.
Agree that much written for Saint Thomas could be used. Some discussion may need to be hot-linked to other pages to be comprehensive. Am still concerned about quality coverage of the many jusrisdictions that levy duty on returning purchases and their different regulations and charges. Any suggestions? john henne 21 Dec.
The only suggestion I've got is to start with whatever content you are ready to share (probably with clearly stating that they apply to this and that specific jurisdiction etc)--and someone else will come up with more for other parts of the world. --DenisYurkin 13:52, 22 December 2009 (EST)

CANADA : Big statues article?

Canada has a lot of big statues across the nation. Why not make a article about it.? KEep smiling, ee talk 21:33, 6 November 2008 (EST).

We already have Big_things_in_Australia which I don't think is very interesting, but I suppose someone might. I'd say if you want to do the work, go ahead. Pashley 23:02, 9 November 2008 (EST)
Most of the Big things in Australia are kitsch, but for some they are a reason for travel, and people tick off how many they have seen (I must confess to having to suppress the urge to count when I read the list). I think the test should be, would the information be useful to someone to plan their travel? If so, its a valid travel topic. So, in this case, would people use the list of big things in Canada to plan their trip around Canada? I think they might. I'm just passing through BC and I might just swing by that big hockey stick.. --Inas 00:57, 10 November 2008 (EST)
Heh, thanks for your opinion(S) guys I will think about it and ask here if I have questions-Inas particularily. Keep smiling, ee talk 18:02, 10 November 2008 (EST).

CANADA:Urban Shopping area's article?

Would be great for showcasing Canada's urban shopping areas (Bank in Ottawa, Yaletown in Vancouver, Stephen in Calgary, Yonge in Toronto, Old Town in Quebec, Barrington in Halifax, 104 St. in Edmonton, Ste-Catherine in Montréal, Portage Aven. in Winnipeg, etc.). Thoughts/??? Keep smiling, ee talk 19:42, 8 November 2008 (EST).

This strikes me as pointless. Shopping areas should be covered in the cities. Some sort of overview, either in the Canada article or separately in a travel topic, would fit in our organisational scheme, but that also seems pointless. I've been to most of these and don't think they're anything special. An overview with links to things like Ottawa's Byward Market, Toronto's Kensington, etc. would be more interesting, but still dubious. Pashley 23:08, 9 November 2008 (EST)
I'm against this one too. I can't see this article doing anything but duplicating stuff that is better placed in the Buy sections of the respective destination articles. It makes no more sense than having a Sleep in Urban Canada topic article. I think even if you created it, it would get voted for deletion later. Texugo 00:21, 10 November 2008 (EST)
I think an overview of the more significant ones in the Canada article may be appropriate, especially since the list seems modest. --Inas 00:59, 10 November 2008 (EST)
I will probably do so if I know it won't get deleted. Keep smiling, ee talk 18:03, 10 November 2008 (EST).
Its a wiki. I think the theory goes that it if works, it will stick and be improved. If what sounds like a good idea, ends up as ugliness, it will fade away or be replaced. If it works for Canada, it might be copied elsewhere. If it fails, then hopefully it won't. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, but if it doesn't work, admit failure and move on.. --Inas 18:29, 10 November 2008 (EST)
I think I will try it out like a "beta" and if others like it-they can do it for their countries. I could see Australia and the United States and maybe the EU getting one. Anyways what it'd be is it split into provinces and then by city then the listings. The listings will be brief so that there is room for people to go into the city's articles. So it will by no means be really large. There'd be probably 4-6 listings for the 10 largest then everything else minimal. I will gather up some information and do it in a bit. Keep smiling, ee talk 18:34, 10 November 2008 (EST).

Airlines travel topic

I wonder is there any reason for not creating Airlines article that can be a base for the nursery approach to content on airlines. Currently there's no good place to stick info on airline which doesn't apply to a single country. Also, it can include List Of Airline Baggage Limits and other similar articles in future. Also, some existing airline topics can grow as a part of this article, until become large enough: LAN Airlines, Turkish Airlines. Opinions? --DenisYurkin 16:47, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

I think the idea about content on airlines is an excellent one. Would you incorporate Discount airlines into Airlines? Andyfarrell 17:30, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
But what would you put in the articles? Where and what they fly? You may as well just check their route map or timetable. Subjective opinions of the service they offer? Every airline has its fans and detractors. What is the content you would like to see on a an airline article that wouldn't just evolve into a list of information derived from their website? What info can a traveller add? --inas 19:07, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
See FlyerWiki or FlyerGuide for examples. (Unfortunately, FW is licensed CC by-nc-nd 3.0... which, incidentally, is a totally crazy license, how can a wiki be no-derivatives!?) Jpatokal 23:03, 18 August 2009 (EDT)


As I frequently see attempts in VFD to create articles on airlines, and most of them end up with Delete outcome, I'm here again with my original proposal. Anyone else interested in creating and maintaining the Airlines article?

As for "What would we put in the article", I think at least objective things helpful in choosing an airline will be a good starting point. Seat pitch per airplane type; typical service and meals set per type of travel (i.e. longhaul, overatlantic etc)--and anything else which is objective but can't be easily sticked into any single destination guide. --DenisYurkin 19:48, 1 September 2010 (EDT)

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