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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Santa Fe (New Mexico)"

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(American Standards)
m (American Standards: oops, Colin, not Mark)
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::Let me further point out that the history of Santa Fe still isn't long by some standards even if you ''do'' include the pre-history.  [[North Central (New Mexico) | Northern New Mexico]] is liberally strewn with petroglyphs that, one might argue, constitute a written record of a sort; being part Indian, I would so argue, even though we don't know what they mean yet.  (Side comment: my mother-in-law is something of an authority on petroglyphs, and believes that progress is being made in understanding them.)  But even they only push the horizon back a few hundred years.  The pyramids of Egypt had still been built and abandoned for millennia before the earliest surviving petroglyph was inscribed.  Of course they were also built and abandoned long before written ''European'' history -- serving to remind us that antiquity is very much in the eye of the beholder.
 
::Let me further point out that the history of Santa Fe still isn't long by some standards even if you ''do'' include the pre-history.  [[North Central (New Mexico) | Northern New Mexico]] is liberally strewn with petroglyphs that, one might argue, constitute a written record of a sort; being part Indian, I would so argue, even though we don't know what they mean yet.  (Side comment: my mother-in-law is something of an authority on petroglyphs, and believes that progress is being made in understanding them.)  But even they only push the horizon back a few hundred years.  The pyramids of Egypt had still been built and abandoned for millennia before the earliest surviving petroglyph was inscribed.  Of course they were also built and abandoned long before written ''European'' history -- serving to remind us that antiquity is very much in the eye of the beholder.
  
::In my opinion the original text is accurate, descriptive, and serves appropriately to place into context the circumstances under which the history of Santa Fe is viewed as "long."  Thanks for the revert, Mark. -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 10:37, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)
+
::In my opinion the original text is accurate, descriptive, and serves appropriately to place into context the circumstances under which the history of Santa Fe is viewed as "long."  Thanks for the revert, Colin. -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 10:37, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)

Revision as of 15:43, 18 February 2006

Contents

Discussion

I moved this article to conform with our Wikitravel:article naming conventions. -- Evan 17:40, 4 Sep 2003 (PDT)

I've started populating the "Eat" section, but it needs a lot of work. Santa Fe is an absolutely extraordinary place for dining and my own experiences here, despite living in the area for close to 30 years, barely scratch the surface. Please add stuff if you can. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 17:33, 23 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Images

Per our earlier discussion, I like the way this article is coming along and think it might eventually be a candidate for Destination of the Month. One of the DOTM requirements is that the article have a couple of good photos -- commons.wikimedia.org doesn't have any non-GFDL images for Santa Fe that I could find, so does anyone else know a source for CC-SA Santa Fe images? -- Ryan 00:12, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Yahoo CC, Commons, Flikr Most of them are CC-2.0, but you can probably get permission for CC-1.0. --elgaard 15:10, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)
FWIW, I had the good fortune to get quite a number of photos of Santa Fe around Christmas time that I modestly think are reasonably good. Several are now incorporated into the article, and others are at a second-tier user page that I set up for people to review the pictures, in case there's a feeling that some would be preferred to the ones now in the article. Comments welcome. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 11:15, 4 Feb 2006 (EST)

Revert

Copied from User talk:Wrh2:

Uh, Ryan, why that last revert to the Santa Fe page? I actually made the reverted change myself. I just wasn't on a computer that I could easily login from (was traveling this weekend to check a few things out and used somebody else's comp while on the road). The "teenager, not much to do" verbiage long pre-dated my work on that page and is much at odds with other things on it, but I wanted to leave the earlier poster's remarks about movie houses, etc.

Meanwhile, I got a connection to some photos that I think will top the thing off. Will apply them as soon as the guy who promised them gets home and sends me mail. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 20:00, 2 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Just a mistake on my part. I didn't notice that there were any content changes, and just saw a formatting change by an anonmyous user. The new list format didn't look quite right to me, so I reverted it. Normally lists are of the form:
  • Item1. Description of item1.
  • Item2. Description of item2.
Since this list seemed more like paragraphs I reverted. I've since un-reverted, so your changes are back. Sorry for the confusion. -- Ryan 21:12, 2 Oct 2005 (EDT)
No prob. I agree that the new format doesn't "look quite right," but I am searching for a tactful way to include what the earlier contributor said (minus the "not much to do" part) within the framework of the overall article. It's not always a smooth fit, but one would prefer to be inclusive. Incidentally, I've added a bunch of other stuff on "Festivals" (hopefully following the standard format :-) ); would appreciate your critique. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:51, 2 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Format is far less important than content (IMHO) - anyone can edit a page to fix format, but only someone who knows the destination can add useful content, so don't get too over-concerned with formatting. That said, I cleaned up a few items (mostly lodging and a couple of restaurants) to more closely conform to the Wikitravel:Restaurant listings and Wikitravel:Accomodation listings.
Format comments aside, I really like the way the content of this article is developing - you're giving a great insider view to the city, with food, lodging and activity suggestions that cater to all manner of traveler. From what I've heard about Santa Fe the festivals, rodeos and fairs are a really big deal and something that are uniquely Santa Fe, so I think it's fine the way you've set them up. This article is definitely one that I would use when visiting, so thanks in advance of any future travels. -- Ryan 01:17, 3 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Sunrise Springs revert

Note to whoever put in the Sunrise Springs mention: thanks, it's a place that truly deserves mention, but it was already in there (under Sleep/Splurge). I've done the revert. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 19:43, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Drink

For completeness, this article should have a "Drink" section, but I am unqualified to write it. Anybody want to have a go? -- Bill-on-the-Hill 20:16, 3 Dec 2005 (EST)

Inappropriate links

I rolled back links for an interior designer and what looked like a software company. I'm not sure what use they would be to the traveler. --Evan 19:57, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)

Usable, not Guide

So, I realize this article is up for Wikitravel:Destination of the month, but we need a lot of work on it. In particular, most of the listings aren't in the format required for Wikitravel:attraction listings, Wikitravel:restaurant listings, Wikitravel:accommodation listings, etc. I think we need to have at least addresses and phone numbers, and preferably some price range for maybe 50-60% of the listings. Opening hours would be good, too. I think a lot of these listings have links, so non-New-Mexicans can chip in and add info. I'll take a poke at a few of the listings.

I'm sorry to be a downer, and I'm probably being too strict, but I think this article needs some polish before calling it a real guide. --Evan 12:25, 16 Dec 2005 (EST)

I take that back: on closer review most of these listings do have an address. I'm going to change this back to a guide. --Evan 13:02, 16 Dec 2005 (EST)
I see what you've been doing with the museums, etc., and basically like it. However, you've introduced a couple of errors that I'll fix later -- some subtle stuff connected with passes and Museum Hill. Santa Fe is a very "non-linear" place and any attempt to make a linear, hierarchical description of some of its features is a challenge... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 13:05, 16 Dec 2005 (EST)

Museums

There are several subtleties to the museums that I have tried to capture in the current (23:32 16 Dec 05) version of the text. If you're planning on any surgery to these, please give me a heads-up beforehand and I'll try to help; seemingly reasonable prose can turn out to be misleading if you're not careful. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 00:37, 17 Dec 2005 (EST)

Map(s)

OK, so I've added a .PNG version of the overview map. This is to be considered a preliminary version with a few bugs to be worked out while awaiting a good .SVG of the same area. Feel free! Map of the downtown area will follow. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:43, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)

American Standards

There seems to have been some objection to

 long history (at least by American standards!),

so let me defend the original. In the USA, Santa Fe is one of the oldest cities (Florida has older cities). There is no settlement outside of Spanish and Portugese-controlled North America that is older -- the first English colony at Jamestown being the same age. However, the Spanish settled Mexico first. So it is incorrect to say that Santa Fe has a long history by New World standards as there are plenty of New World cities that are older. But within the borders of the USA, Santa Fe is nearly the eldest.

The first attempt to change this stated that this was an error because much of the history predated the founding of the US. This missed the point -- when we say "American Standards" the author is clearly referring to "the age of cities that Americans are used to expecting from cities within the United States." I would add, that in the West portion of the US, this is an astounding age. To give some idea of how out-of-the-ordinary this is, compare this to the eldest California city which is about half Santa Fe's age.

(As an aside, yes I know Native Americans in the US predate the US by jillions of years. But to the best of my knowledge, there is no history of what they did. Elsewhere in the New World, some Native American history survived. It just happens that none of it was within US borders). -- Colin 03:11, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)

OK. And by the way, the definition of history is a written record of a people. The people living in North America before the Spanish came had not developed writing, hence, no history. They probably had oral traditions, and hopefully whatever can be is being preserved by their decendants... etc. etc. etc. Anyhow you are right. -- Mark 04:49, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)
Let me further point out that the history of Santa Fe still isn't long by some standards even if you do include the pre-history. Northern New Mexico is liberally strewn with petroglyphs that, one might argue, constitute a written record of a sort; being part Indian, I would so argue, even though we don't know what they mean yet. (Side comment: my mother-in-law is something of an authority on petroglyphs, and believes that progress is being made in understanding them.) But even they only push the horizon back a few hundred years. The pyramids of Egypt had still been built and abandoned for millennia before the earliest surviving petroglyph was inscribed. Of course they were also built and abandoned long before written European history -- serving to remind us that antiquity is very much in the eye of the beholder.
In my opinion the original text is accurate, descriptive, and serves appropriately to place into context the circumstances under which the history of Santa Fe is viewed as "long." Thanks for the revert, Colin. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:37, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)

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