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(American Standards)
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::Let me further point out that the history of Santa Fe still isn't long by some standards even if you ''do'' include the pre-history.  [[North Central (New Mexico) | Northern New Mexico]] is liberally strewn with petroglyphs that, one might argue, constitute a written record of a sort; being part Indian, I would so argue, even though we don't know what they mean yet.  (Side comment: my mother-in-law is something of an authority on petroglyphs, and believes that progress is being made in understanding them.)  But even they only push the horizon back a few hundred years.  The pyramids of Egypt had still been built and abandoned for millennia before the earliest surviving petroglyph was inscribed.  Of course they were also built and abandoned long before written ''European'' history -- serving to remind us that antiquity is very much in the eye of the beholder.
 
::Let me further point out that the history of Santa Fe still isn't long by some standards even if you ''do'' include the pre-history.  [[North Central (New Mexico) | Northern New Mexico]] is liberally strewn with petroglyphs that, one might argue, constitute a written record of a sort; being part Indian, I would so argue, even though we don't know what they mean yet.  (Side comment: my mother-in-law is something of an authority on petroglyphs, and believes that progress is being made in understanding them.)  But even they only push the horizon back a few hundred years.  The pyramids of Egypt had still been built and abandoned for millennia before the earliest surviving petroglyph was inscribed.  Of course they were also built and abandoned long before written ''European'' history -- serving to remind us that antiquity is very much in the eye of the beholder.
  
::In my opinion the original text is accurate, descriptive, and serves appropriately to place into context the circumstances under which the history of Santa Fe is viewed as "long."  Thanks for the revert, Mark. -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 10:37, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)
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::In my opinion the original text is accurate, descriptive, and serves appropriately to place into context the circumstances under which the history of Santa Fe is viewed as "long."  Thanks for the revert, Colin. -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 10:37, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)
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==How to make this thing a Star?==
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I'd appreciate input as to what needs yet to be done to earn this article Star status.  Santa Fe is likely to be a [[Previous Destinations of the month | Destination of the Month]] during the summer of 2006, and it would be nice to go the extra mile and make it a Star by then. -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 14:12, 5 May 2006 (EDT)
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:Well, this isn't a complete list because you'll need someone else to comment on substance for you:
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:#Nail down every attraction, sleep, eat, and drink to be perfectly formatted.  Should include full phone, address (directions is needed), website (when available), pricing, and hours.
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:#I just added info for ElRancho de las Golodrinas from there website... which conflicts with the previous entry which claimed it was open for more months of the year.  Might need to email them to clarify.
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:#There's some "musical group" stuff with no text, just an extlink.  Should be expanded into a full listing.
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:On the face of it, it looks like it'll be some work to get it there.  But this is one of the best candidates for pushing-to-star that I've seen, so go for it! -- [[User:Cjensen|Colin]] 15:04, 5 May 2006 (EDT)
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::Thanks for the comments.  The "substance" part is not a problem -- I've got a pretty good handle on that, although it would be good if someone more familiar with the night spots (not a strength of either Santa Fe or myself) would expand the "Drink" section.  I had intentionally left the "musical group" section somewhat terse, as it's a sub-subdivision and the article is already quite long for a city of 60,000.  Of course, Santa Fe isn't just ''any'' city of 60,000...  Please pass by occasionally and see what you think, and help "star-ify" the article as you've been doing. -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 10:37, 6 May 2006 (EDT)
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:::This article is fantastic!  Thanks. [[User:68.4.102.159|68.4.102.159]] 22:15, 1 July 2006 (EDT)
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==Only in Santa Fe...==
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The story in the infobox I added today is '''not''' an April Fools joke four months late; it really happened.  Here's the reference: [http://freenewmexican.com/news/66564.html]
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A delectable trivium not in the infobox is that the critter was finally brought to bay and tranquilized while it was hiding -- I kid you not -- in the store's toilet.  I am '''not''' making this up; my imagination, even after 30 years' exposure to the artistic wackiness of this city, could never have come up with a story like that one! -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 22:44, 13 August 2007 (EDT)
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==International Hostels issue==
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Someone put the following text in the listing for the International Hostels site, typos and all:
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''Locals request you not to use this locations. They will not rent to "anyone participating in the local economy". This means that Sana Fe's Homeless (a large portion in this city, due to extrememly high rent, comparable to Massachusetts, the highest in the country, for a one bedroom.) are turned down after receiving their first check. This occurence happens even in winter, when night temperatures drop well below freezing.''  I removed this because it was lousing up the formatting for the article, but the content is worth pondering.  Should this concern be a valid reason to deprecate the Hostels as a place for the traveler?  Discuss, please. -- [[User:Bill-on-the-Hill|Bill-on-the-Hill]] 21:02, 19 November 2008 (EST)
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This is from the Santa Fe International Hostel's Management: The above is true.  We find attempting to provide social services to be corrosive to our central mission, which is educational travel.  The operator of the hostel spends several hours every weekend helping provide a meal for the homeless.  For more information about our how we choose to operate and who we choose to serve, please do visit the website at http://hostelsantafe.com.
 +
 
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==Possible Needed Updates==
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 +
Being a complete newb here, I figured I'd state the following here, rather than edit the actual page.  A few things: The Green Onion and Cafe Dominic's are closed.  The Ore House, is definetely not a splurge restaurant.(solidly mid-range)  Also, the 2nd most popular Santa Fe restaurant according to Yelp, and likely the one with the highest number of customers per year, The Cowgirl, is curiously omitted. {{unsigned|67.164.136.34}}
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: Please [[Wikitravel:Plunge forward|plunge forward]] and make the necessary updates.  One request however - when removing a closed listing be sure to state the reason in the "Summary:" so that other editors know that it was removed for a reason. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] • ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) • 10:49, 30 September 2010 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 14:53, 30 September 2010

Contents

Discussion[edit]

I moved this article to conform with our Wikitravel:article naming conventions. -- Evan 17:40, 4 Sep 2003 (PDT)

I've started populating the "Eat" section, but it needs a lot of work. Santa Fe is an absolutely extraordinary place for dining and my own experiences here, despite living in the area for close to 30 years, barely scratch the surface. Please add stuff if you can. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 17:33, 23 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Images[edit]

Per our earlier discussion, I like the way this article is coming along and think it might eventually be a candidate for Destination of the Month. One of the DOTM requirements is that the article have a couple of good photos -- commons.wikimedia.org doesn't have any non-GFDL images for Santa Fe that I could find, so does anyone else know a source for CC-SA Santa Fe images? -- Ryan 00:12, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Yahoo CC, Commons, Flikr Most of them are CC-2.0, but you can probably get permission for CC-1.0. --elgaard 15:10, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)
FWIW, I had the good fortune to get quite a number of photos of Santa Fe around Christmas time that I modestly think are reasonably good. Several are now incorporated into the article, and others are at a second-tier user page that I set up for people to review the pictures, in case there's a feeling that some would be preferred to the ones now in the article. Comments welcome. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 11:15, 4 Feb 2006 (EST)

Revert[edit]

Copied from User talk:Wrh2:

Uh, Ryan, why that last revert to the Santa Fe page? I actually made the reverted change myself. I just wasn't on a computer that I could easily login from (was traveling this weekend to check a few things out and used somebody else's comp while on the road). The "teenager, not much to do" verbiage long pre-dated my work on that page and is much at odds with other things on it, but I wanted to leave the earlier poster's remarks about movie houses, etc.

Meanwhile, I got a connection to some photos that I think will top the thing off. Will apply them as soon as the guy who promised them gets home and sends me mail. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 20:00, 2 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Just a mistake on my part. I didn't notice that there were any content changes, and just saw a formatting change by an anonmyous user. The new list format didn't look quite right to me, so I reverted it. Normally lists are of the form:
  • Item1. Description of item1.
  • Item2. Description of item2.
Since this list seemed more like paragraphs I reverted. I've since un-reverted, so your changes are back. Sorry for the confusion. -- Ryan 21:12, 2 Oct 2005 (EDT)
No prob. I agree that the new format doesn't "look quite right," but I am searching for a tactful way to include what the earlier contributor said (minus the "not much to do" part) within the framework of the overall article. It's not always a smooth fit, but one would prefer to be inclusive. Incidentally, I've added a bunch of other stuff on "Festivals" (hopefully following the standard format :-) ); would appreciate your critique. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:51, 2 Oct 2005 (EDT)
Format is far less important than content (IMHO) - anyone can edit a page to fix format, but only someone who knows the destination can add useful content, so don't get too over-concerned with formatting. That said, I cleaned up a few items (mostly lodging and a couple of restaurants) to more closely conform to the Wikitravel:Restaurant listings and Wikitravel:Accomodation listings.
Format comments aside, I really like the way the content of this article is developing - you're giving a great insider view to the city, with food, lodging and activity suggestions that cater to all manner of traveler. From what I've heard about Santa Fe the festivals, rodeos and fairs are a really big deal and something that are uniquely Santa Fe, so I think it's fine the way you've set them up. This article is definitely one that I would use when visiting, so thanks in advance of any future travels. -- Ryan 01:17, 3 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Sunrise Springs revert[edit]

Note to whoever put in the Sunrise Springs mention: thanks, it's a place that truly deserves mention, but it was already in there (under Sleep/Splurge). I've done the revert. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 19:43, 20 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Drink[edit][add listing]

For completeness, this article should have a "Drink" section, but I am unqualified to write it. Anybody want to have a go? -- Bill-on-the-Hill 20:16, 3 Dec 2005 (EST)

Inappropriate links[edit]

I rolled back links for an interior designer and what looked like a software company. I'm not sure what use they would be to the traveler. --Evan 19:57, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)

Usable, not Guide[edit]

So, I realize this article is up for Wikitravel:Destination of the month, but we need a lot of work on it. In particular, most of the listings aren't in the format required for Wikitravel:attraction listings, Wikitravel:restaurant listings, Wikitravel:accommodation listings, etc. I think we need to have at least addresses and phone numbers, and preferably some price range for maybe 50-60% of the listings. Opening hours would be good, too. I think a lot of these listings have links, so non-New-Mexicans can chip in and add info. I'll take a poke at a few of the listings.

I'm sorry to be a downer, and I'm probably being too strict, but I think this article needs some polish before calling it a real guide. --Evan 12:25, 16 Dec 2005 (EST)

I take that back: on closer review most of these listings do have an address. I'm going to change this back to a guide. --Evan 13:02, 16 Dec 2005 (EST)
I see what you've been doing with the museums, etc., and basically like it. However, you've introduced a couple of errors that I'll fix later -- some subtle stuff connected with passes and Museum Hill. Santa Fe is a very "non-linear" place and any attempt to make a linear, hierarchical description of some of its features is a challenge... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 13:05, 16 Dec 2005 (EST)

Museums[edit]

There are several subtleties to the museums that I have tried to capture in the current (23:32 16 Dec 05) version of the text. If you're planning on any surgery to these, please give me a heads-up beforehand and I'll try to help; seemingly reasonable prose can turn out to be misleading if you're not careful. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 00:37, 17 Dec 2005 (EST)

Map(s)[edit]

OK, so I've added a .PNG version of the overview map. This is to be considered a preliminary version with a few bugs to be worked out while awaiting a good .SVG of the same area. Feel free! Map of the downtown area will follow. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:43, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)

American Standards[edit]

There seems to have been some objection to

 long history (at least by American standards!),

so let me defend the original. In the USA, Santa Fe is one of the oldest cities (Florida has older cities). There is no settlement outside of Spanish and Portugese-controlled North America that is older -- the first English colony at Jamestown being the same age. However, the Spanish settled Mexico first. So it is incorrect to say that Santa Fe has a long history by New World standards as there are plenty of New World cities that are older. But within the borders of the USA, Santa Fe is nearly the eldest.

The first attempt to change this stated that this was an error because much of the history predated the founding of the US. This missed the point -- when we say "American Standards" the author is clearly referring to "the age of cities that Americans are used to expecting from cities within the United States." I would add, that in the West portion of the US, this is an astounding age. To give some idea of how out-of-the-ordinary this is, compare this to the eldest California city which is about half Santa Fe's age.

(As an aside, yes I know Native Americans in the US predate the US by jillions of years. But to the best of my knowledge, there is no history of what they did. Elsewhere in the New World, some Native American history survived. It just happens that none of it was within US borders). -- Colin 03:11, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)

OK. And by the way, the definition of history is a written record of a people. The people living in North America before the Spanish came had not developed writing, hence, no history. They probably had oral traditions, and hopefully whatever can be is being preserved by their decendants... etc. etc. etc. Anyhow you are right. -- Mark 04:49, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)
Let me further point out that the history of Santa Fe still isn't long by some standards even if you do include the pre-history. Northern New Mexico is liberally strewn with petroglyphs that, one might argue, constitute a written record of a sort; being part Indian, I would so argue, even though we don't know what they mean yet. (Side comment: my mother-in-law is something of an authority on petroglyphs, and believes that progress is being made in understanding them.) But even they only push the horizon back a few hundred years. The pyramids of Egypt had still been built and abandoned for millennia before the earliest surviving petroglyph was inscribed. Of course they were also built and abandoned long before written European history -- serving to remind us that antiquity is very much in the eye of the beholder.
In my opinion the original text is accurate, descriptive, and serves appropriately to place into context the circumstances under which the history of Santa Fe is viewed as "long." Thanks for the revert, Colin. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:37, 18 Feb 2006 (EST)


How to make this thing a Star?[edit]

I'd appreciate input as to what needs yet to be done to earn this article Star status. Santa Fe is likely to be a Destination of the Month during the summer of 2006, and it would be nice to go the extra mile and make it a Star by then. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:12, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

Well, this isn't a complete list because you'll need someone else to comment on substance for you:
  1. Nail down every attraction, sleep, eat, and drink to be perfectly formatted. Should include full phone, address (directions is needed), website (when available), pricing, and hours.
  2. I just added info for ElRancho de las Golodrinas from there website... which conflicts with the previous entry which claimed it was open for more months of the year. Might need to email them to clarify.
  3. There's some "musical group" stuff with no text, just an extlink. Should be expanded into a full listing.
On the face of it, it looks like it'll be some work to get it there. But this is one of the best candidates for pushing-to-star that I've seen, so go for it! -- Colin 15:04, 5 May 2006 (EDT)
Thanks for the comments. The "substance" part is not a problem -- I've got a pretty good handle on that, although it would be good if someone more familiar with the night spots (not a strength of either Santa Fe or myself) would expand the "Drink" section. I had intentionally left the "musical group" section somewhat terse, as it's a sub-subdivision and the article is already quite long for a city of 60,000. Of course, Santa Fe isn't just any city of 60,000... Please pass by occasionally and see what you think, and help "star-ify" the article as you've been doing. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:37, 6 May 2006 (EDT)
This article is fantastic! Thanks. 68.4.102.159 22:15, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

Only in Santa Fe...[edit]

The story in the infobox I added today is not an April Fools joke four months late; it really happened. Here's the reference: [1] A delectable trivium not in the infobox is that the critter was finally brought to bay and tranquilized while it was hiding -- I kid you not -- in the store's toilet. I am not making this up; my imagination, even after 30 years' exposure to the artistic wackiness of this city, could never have come up with a story like that one! -- Bill-on-the-Hill 22:44, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

International Hostels issue[edit]

Someone put the following text in the listing for the International Hostels site, typos and all: Locals request you not to use this locations. They will not rent to "anyone participating in the local economy". This means that Sana Fe's Homeless (a large portion in this city, due to extrememly high rent, comparable to Massachusetts, the highest in the country, for a one bedroom.) are turned down after receiving their first check. This occurence happens even in winter, when night temperatures drop well below freezing. I removed this because it was lousing up the formatting for the article, but the content is worth pondering. Should this concern be a valid reason to deprecate the Hostels as a place for the traveler? Discuss, please. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:02, 19 November 2008 (EST)

This is from the Santa Fe International Hostel's Management: The above is true. We find attempting to provide social services to be corrosive to our central mission, which is educational travel. The operator of the hostel spends several hours every weekend helping provide a meal for the homeless. For more information about our how we choose to operate and who we choose to serve, please do visit the website at http://hostelsantafe.com.

Possible Needed Updates[edit]

Being a complete newb here, I figured I'd state the following here, rather than edit the actual page. A few things: The Green Onion and Cafe Dominic's are closed. The Ore House, is definetely not a splurge restaurant.(solidly mid-range) Also, the 2nd most popular Santa Fe restaurant according to Yelp, and likely the one with the highest number of customers per year, The Cowgirl, is curiously omitted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.164.136.34 (talkcontribs)

Please plunge forward and make the necessary updates. One request however - when removing a closed listing be sure to state the reason in the "Summary:" so that other editors know that it was removed for a reason. -- Ryan • (talk) • 10:49, 30 September 2010 (EDT)

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