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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Saint Petersburg"

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==Disambiguation==
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==General==
  
This is a foolish redirection. There's a place in the states called [[Amsterdam]], but that would be just as foolish. --[[User:145.99.202.92|145.99.202.92]] 05:27, 27 March 2006 (EST)
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I moved this page to have a disambiguator. I realize that the Russian city is much larger and well-known than the Floridian one, but I figured if we needed a disclaimer at the beginning of the page, it was worth putting a full disambiguation page in.
  
: I have to say I agree... [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] 05:28, 27 March 2006 (EST)
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I didn't know the next-higher region to use for the disambiguator. When we get Russia's geographical hierarchy straightened out, it may make sense to move this article again. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 12:47, 27 Jul 2004 (EDT)
  
::I'll third the sentiment.  If no one objects let's make this one another case of the [[Wikitravel:Article naming conventions#Disambiguation|"most famous"]] rule. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] 12:55, 27 March 2006 (EST)
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==Connections==
  
:::I'll disagree. St. Petersburg, Florida is a big city and a big destination. It's not [[Paris (Arkansas)]]. Searching for "St Petersburg" on Yahoo or Google gives the Florida city for all the first few results. St. Petersburg in Russia is simply not much, much more famous. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 15:10, 27 March 2006 (EST)
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The Sibelius and Repin trains from Helsinki terminating in St. Petersburg will switch back to using the Finland station in September 2006. The Tolstoi train from Helsinki via St. Petersburg to Moscow will presumably not be affected. http://www.vr.fi/heo/eng/ita/faikataulut.htm http://www.vr.fi/heo/ita/faikataulut.htm
  
::::I don't feel too strongly about this one, but it's worth noting that the St. Petersburg article on Wikipedia is about the Russian city, and from a traveler's standpoint I think that would definitely be the more famous destination.  Agreed that the Florida city is a big place and that there are things for a tourist to do there, just not sure if anyone who hasn't been to Florida would ever have heard of it.  But like I said, if anyone has a strong opinion that this should be disambiguated then this is enough of a corner case that I'd defer. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] 15:24, 27 March 2006 (EST)
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== Article's status ==
  
::: @Evan; if you search on Санкт-Петербург in Google, it'll give you the russian cultural capital. I think its a bit ethnocentric to claim St. Petersburg (Florida) is as relevant. The most people who will roam Санкт-Петербург  will do so in cyrillic. Also, quoting wikipedia on St. Petersburg, Florida, "it was named after Saint Petersburg, Russia, the birthplace of Peter Demens." But I don't know how to do redirects, so could someone please... --[[User:145.99.202.92|145.99.202.92]] 03:58, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
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Although some sections are incomplete, in my recent trip to St. Petersburg, I found this guide very useful. I didn't need any other guide. Is it still so small it has to be an outline? I mean, all the important sections have lots of info, I think it should be changed to 'usable'. Anyone have any objections?[[User:EmbrunOntario|EmbrunOntario]] 15:57, 26 July 2006 (EDT)
  
::::It is absolutely ethnocentric; this is the English-language Wikitravel, which is written in English, and we need to be responsive to the needs of English speakers and readers. On the [[Wikitravel:Russian Wikitravel Expedition|Russian Wikitravel]], I'd bet that Санкт-Петербург won't need a disambiguator. But that's not the subject under discussion.
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:The status criteria for city/town/village articles can be found at [[Wikitravel:City guide status]]. It's not unusual for an article to be improved enough to qualify for a higher status, so if you see one that meets the criteria (and this one does), [[Wikitravel:plunge forward|plunge forward]] and upgrade itNote that when you get above "outline", the tag gets more specific about what kind of article it is: in this case it would be <nowiki>{{usablecity}} or (with a little clean-up and more contact info in the listings) {{guidecity}}</nowiki>. - [[User:TVerBeek|Todd VerBeek]] 17:37, 26 July 2006 (EDT)
 
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::::Let's make sure that we're talking about the right thing here. We're not talking about whether the Russian city "deserves" the undecorated name, or is more important, or better, or more special or fantastic or precious. We're talking about whether a disambiguation string at the end of the article title is going to be a help or a hindrance. ''Since'' there is another ''notable'' city with the same name, it is a help, not a hindrance. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 11:35, 11 April 2006 (EDT)
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:Just a note that we now have a "St. Petersburg (disambiguation)" page as the anonymous user above tried to "move" the article by creating a new disambiguation page and then copying the Russian article.  If the Russian city is to be the "most famous" then the steps to take would be:
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:# Delete the (copied) "St. Petersburg (disambiguation)" article.
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:# Move "St. Petersburg" to "St. Petersbury (disambiguation)"
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:# Delete "St. Petersburg" (which will be a redirect).
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:# Move "St. Petersburg (Russia)" to "St. Petersburg".
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:This approach saves the history of all articles involved.  Before doing this, however, we need a consensus that it's the right move.  Evan, you indicated above that you're not OK with this.  Any chance of a change of heart? -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] 04:28, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
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::I ''have'' heard of the city in Florida, but would agree that for general travellers, the original one is ''much'' more famous than that one. As a minor point, I thought that in modern usage you ignored the fullstop (St rather than St.) -- [[User:DanielC|DanielC]] 08:31, 11 April 2006 (EDT)
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:::It depends on what kind of "general traveler".  For a see-the-world traveler or typical European, ye olde Petrograd comes to mind, but for a sun-and-surf traveler or baseball fan in the U.S., the city on Tampa Bay would probably come firstKeep in mind that A) the City Formerly Known As Leningrad has only been "St. Petersburg" for 15 years (in most of our lifetimes), and B) we yanks are a self-absorbed lot who don't read the newspapers. :) - [[User:TVerBeek|Todd VerBeek]] 09:12, 11 April 2006 (EDT)
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::I'm concerned that people keep referring to the "most famous rule", which doesn't exist. With disambiguation, it's not a which-is-'''more-famous''' question, it's a which-is-'''so-much-more-famous'''-that-it's-not-even-an-issue question. We disambiguate ''by default'', and only leave off the disambiguator when some city is ''sufficiently more famous than all others such that disambiguating is a hindrance rather than a help.'' If I had to put a rough number on it, I'd say a place needed an order of magnitude more famosity over all other places with the same name ''combined'' for it to be reasonable to drop the disambiguator, and maybe two.
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::So, no, I still don't think we should drop the disambiguator for the Russian city, per the current dab rules. If someone thinks that the Russian city is sufficiently more famous to justify dropping the disambiguator, I'd like to see some evidence. If the rules are wrong, let's change those. --[[User:Evan|Evan]] 11:35, 11 April 2006 (EDT)
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: Well, what now? Evan is the only one disagreeing. As the [[Wikitravel:Consensus]] states, I should just plunge forward, and if Evan really doenst agree, he can undo it? I can't move pages, though, or at least, don't know how to.
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: Regarding the much more famous, I agree, its a matter of opinion, but I'm very sorry that I cannot agree with claiming the surf resort in California ;) is somewhere near as famous as SPB. In the example in [[Wikitravel:Article_naming_conventions#Disambiguation]], besides [[Paris]], also [[Los Angeles]] is being used, which is also a mid sized (~100.000 [http://www.chile-travel.com/losangel.htm]) town. ''Saint Pete'' has 248,232, SPB has 4,6 and LA 3,8 million. SPB is 19 times as large as St. Pete.
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: Also Wikipedia uses its  St. Petersburg page for the Russian 'mega polis', and offers direct disambiguation to the States' fellow.
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: Regarding the Englishness, I've encountered such arguments also on Wikipedia. Do you agree with [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Anglo-American_focus], or follows Wikitravel another line? --[[User:145.99.202.92|145.99.202.92]] 04:37, 13 April 2006 (EDT)
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:::Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough: '''I disagree with you too'''.  The city in the U.S. '''is''' famous among our audience as a travel destination.  The question isn't "which has more people?"  The question is whether one of them is so much, much more ''famous'' than the other that we can safely assume that almost anyone searching for just "St. Petersburg" on this site is interested in visiting Russia, not the Florida city on the gulf shore with a major league baseball stadium.  You don't have to believe it, but it's ''true'' that Florida is a major destination and that in the minds of many English-speaking travelers, ''that's'' where "St. Petersburg" is found.  This is not an encyclopedia; it's a travel guide.  So, no: it doesn't have the same guidelines as Wikipedia. - [[User:TVerBeek|Todd VerBeek]] 07:54, 13 April 2006 (EDT)
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::Wikipedia has had a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Saint_Petersburg#United_States_-_Russia_Naming_Issues long, long debate] about this very same naming issue, and they came up with what, to me, looks like a pretty good compromise: "Saint Petersburg" is the Russian city, but the first-line disambig says "See also St. Petersburg, Florida or St. Petersburg (disambiguation)".
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::As an aside, I wouldn't object to a change in the rules.  I think disambiguators are fundamentally evil and should be avoided unless necessary, whereas Evan's stance seems to be that they're the default state of affairs. I'll raise a [[Wikitravel_talk:Article_naming_conventions#.22Much_more_famous.22_and_defining_an_order_of_magnitude|separate discussion]] there. [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] 06:55, 13 April 2006 (EDT)
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Revision as of 12:34, 27 July 2006

General

I moved this page to have a disambiguator. I realize that the Russian city is much larger and well-known than the Floridian one, but I figured if we needed a disclaimer at the beginning of the page, it was worth putting a full disambiguation page in.

I didn't know the next-higher region to use for the disambiguator. When we get Russia's geographical hierarchy straightened out, it may make sense to move this article again. --Evan 12:47, 27 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Connections

The Sibelius and Repin trains from Helsinki terminating in St. Petersburg will switch back to using the Finland station in September 2006. The Tolstoi train from Helsinki via St. Petersburg to Moscow will presumably not be affected. http://www.vr.fi/heo/eng/ita/faikataulut.htm http://www.vr.fi/heo/ita/faikataulut.htm

Article's status

Although some sections are incomplete, in my recent trip to St. Petersburg, I found this guide very useful. I didn't need any other guide. Is it still so small it has to be an outline? I mean, all the important sections have lots of info, I think it should be changed to 'usable'. Anyone have any objections?EmbrunOntario 15:57, 26 July 2006 (EDT)

The status criteria for city/town/village articles can be found at Wikitravel:City guide status. It's not unusual for an article to be improved enough to qualify for a higher status, so if you see one that meets the criteria (and this one does), plunge forward and upgrade it. Note that when you get above "outline", the tag gets more specific about what kind of article it is: in this case it would be {{usablecity}} or (with a little clean-up and more contact info in the listings) {{guidecity}}. - Todd VerBeek 17:37, 26 July 2006 (EDT)

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