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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Russia/Geographic Hierarchy"

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*[[Russia]]
+
<br clear="all" />
**[[Kaliningrad Oblast]]
+
===[[Kaliningrad Oblast]]===
**[[Central Russia]]
+
===[[Central Russia]]===
***[[Golden Ring]]
+
*[[Golden Ring]]
****[[Ivanovo Oblast]]
+
**[[Ivanovo Oblast]]
****[[Kostroma Oblast]]
+
**[[Kostroma Oblast]]
****[[Moscow Oblast]]
+
**[[Moscow Oblast]]
****[[Vladimir Oblast]]
+
***[[Moscow|Moscow Federal City]]
****[[Yaroslavl Oblast]]
+
***[[West Moscow Oblast]]
***[[Don-Voronezh Region]]
+
***[[North Moscow Oblast]]
****[[Lipetsk Oblast]]
+
***[[East Moscow Oblast]]
****[[Ryazan Oblast]]
+
***[[South Moscow Oblast]]
****[[Tambov Oblast]]
+
**[[Vladimir Oblast]]
****[[Tula Oblast]]
+
**[[Yaroslavl Oblast]]
****[[Voronezh]]
+
*[[Don-Voronezh Region]]
***[[Western Russia]]
+
**[[Lipetsk Oblast]]
****[[Belgorod Oblast]]
+
**[[Ryazan Oblast]]
****[[Bryansk Oblast]]
+
**[[Tambov Oblast]]
****[[Kaluga Oblast]]
+
**[[Tula Oblast]]
****[[Kursk Oblast]]
+
**[[Voronezh Oblast]]
****[[Oryol Oblast]]
+
*[[Western Russia]]
****[[Smolensk Oblast]]
+
**[[Belgorod Oblast]]
****[[Tver Oblast]]
+
**[[Bryansk Oblast]]
**[[Northwestern Russia]]
+
**[[Kaluga Oblast]]
***[[Arkhangelsk Oblast]]
+
**[[Kursk Oblast]]
***[[Karelia]]
+
**[[Oryol Oblast]]
***[[Komi Republic]]
+
**[[Smolensk Oblast]]
***[[Leningrad Oblast]]
+
**[[Tver Oblast]]
***[[Murmansk Oblast]]
+
 
***[[Nenetsia]]
+
===[[Northwestern Russia]]===
***[[Novgorod Oblast]]
+
*[[Arkhangelsk Oblast]]
***[[Pskov Oblast]]
+
*[[Karelia]]
***[[Vologda Oblast]]
+
*[[Komi Republic]]
**[[Southern Russia]]
+
*[[Leningrad Oblast]]
***[[Astrakhan Oblast]]
+
*[[Murmansk Oblast]]
***[[Kalmykia]]
+
*[[Nenetsia]]
***[[Krasnodar Krai]]
+
*[[Novgorod Oblast]]
***[[Northern Caucasus]]
+
*[[Pskov Oblast]]
****[[Chechnya]]
+
*[[Vologda Oblast]]
****[[Dagestan]]
+
===[[Southern Russia]]===
****[[Ingushetia]]
+
*[[Astrakhan Oblast]]
****[[Kabardino-Balkaria]]
+
*[[Kalmykia]]
****[[Karachay-Cherkessia]]
+
*[[Krasnodar Krai]]
***[[Rostov Oblast]]
+
*[[North Caucasus]]
***[[Stavropol Krai]]
+
**[[Chechnya]]
***[[Volgograd Oblast]]
+
**[[Dagestan]]
**[[Urals]]
+
**[[Ingushetia]]
***[[Chelyabinsk Oblast]]
+
**[[Kabardino-Balkaria]]
***[[Kurgan Oblast]]
+
**[[Karachay-Cherkessia]]
***[[Khantia-Mansia]]
+
*[[Rostov Oblast]]
***[[Sverdlovsk Oblast]]
+
*[[Stavropol Krai]]
***[[Tyumen Oblast]]
+
*[[Volgograd Oblast]]
**[[Siberia]]
+
===[[Urals]]===
***[[Eastern Siberia]]
+
*[[Chelyabinsk Oblast]]
****[[Buryatia]]
+
*[[Kurgan Oblast]]
****[[Chita Oblast]]
+
*[[Khantia-Mansia]]
****[[Irkutsk]]
+
*[[Sverdlovsk Oblast]]
****[[Tuva]]
+
*[[Tyumen Oblast]]
***[[Krasnoyarsk Krai]]
+
*[[Yamalia]]
****[[Evenkia]]
+
===[[Siberia]]===
****[[Krasnoyarsk (Region)]]
+
*[[Eastern Siberia]]
****[[Taymyria]]
+
**[[Buryatia]]
***[[Western Siberia]]
+
**[[Chita Oblast]]
****[[Altai (Krai)]]
+
**[[Irkutsk Oblast]]
****[[Altai (Republic)]]
+
**[[Tuva]]
****[[Khakassia]]
+
*[[Krasnoyarsk Krai]]
****[[Kemerovo Oblast]]
+
**[[Evenkia]]
****[[Novosibirsk Oblast]]
+
**[[Krasnoyarsk (region)]]
****[[Omsk Oblast]]
+
**[[Taymyria]]
****[[Tomsk Oblast]]
+
*[[Western Siberia]]
**[[Far Eastern Russia]]
+
**[[Altai (Krai)]]
***[[Northeastern Russia]]
+
**[[Altai (Republic)]]
****[[Chukotka]]
+
**[[Khakassia]]
****[[Kamchatka]]
+
**[[Kemerovo Oblast]]
****[[Koryakia]]
+
**[[Novosibirsk Oblast]]
****[[Magadan Oblast]]
+
**[[Omsk Oblast]]
***[[Southeastern Russia]]
+
**[[Tomsk Oblast]]
****[[Amur Oblast]]
+
===[[Far Eastern Russia]]===
****[[Jewish Autonomous Oblast]]
+
*[[Northeastern Russia]]
****[[Khabarovsk Krai]]
+
**[[Chukotka]]
****[[Primorskiy Krai]]
+
**[[Kamchatka]]
****[[Sakhalin Oblast]]
+
**[[Koryakia]]
***[[Yakutia]]
+
**[[Magadan Oblast]]
**[[Volga Region]]
+
*[[Southeastern Russia]]
***[[East Volga Region]]
+
**[[Amur Oblast]]
****[[Bashkortostan]]
+
**[[Jewish Autonomous Oblast]]
****[[Kirov]]
+
**[[Khabarovsk Krai]]
****[[Orenburg]]
+
**[[Primorsky Krai]]
****[[Perm]]
+
**[[Sakhalin Oblast]]
****[[Tatarstan]]
+
*[[Yakutia]]
****[[Udmurtiya]]
+
===[[Volga Region]]===
***[[West Volga Region]]
+
*[[East Volga Region]]
****[[Chuvashia]]
+
**[[Bashkortostan]]
****[[Mari El]]
+
**[[Kirov Oblast]]
****[[Mordovia]]
+
**[[Orenburg Oblast]]
****[[Nizhny Novgorod Oblast]]
+
**[[Perm Krai]]
****[[Penza Oblast]]
+
**[[Tatarstan]]
****[[Samara Oblast]]
+
**[[Udmurtia]]
****[[Saratov Oblast]]
+
*[[West Volga Region]]
****[[Ulyanovsk Oblast]]
+
**[[Chuvashia]]
 +
**[[Mari El]]
 +
**[[Mordovia]]
 +
**[[Nizhny Novgorod Oblast]]
 +
**[[Penza Oblast]]
 +
**[[Samara Oblast]]
 +
**[[Saratov Oblast]]
 +
**[[Ulyanovsk Oblast]]
 +
 
 +
==Initial proposal==
 +
''copied from [[Talk:Russia]]''
 +
 
 +
OK, here is my approach to an overarching geographic hierarchy for Russia.  The top level categories are based on the newish Russian Federal Districts + one for Kaliningrad. I made a separate category for Kaliningrad because a) this makes the subregions for [[Northwestern Russia]] total up to a maximum 9 and b) Kaliningrad is really much more in [[Northern Europe]] than in [[Northwestern Russia]], at least from a "getting in" or "getting out" perspective. I don't think we need many smaller subdivisions, at least until a lot more Russia content gets developed. 
 +
 
 +
The two aspects of this hierarchy that I find least satisfying are the sub-regions under [[Central Russia]] ([[Golden Ring]], [[Don-Voronezh Region]], and [[Western Russia]]) and under [[Volga Region]] ([[West Volga Region]] and [[East Volga Region]]). Of all Russia, I am least familiar with the Central and Volga regions so I had to just improvise to subdivide these regions. It would probably be better if someone could come up with alternative subdivisions for these two top-level regions based on something actually related to differences in culture, geography, history, or politics.
 +
 
 +
Lastly, I do intend to make maps (and articles where they are lacking) for subdivisions, but would of course welcome help ;) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]] <sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup> 01:43, 7 April 2007 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
== questions ==
 +
 
 +
Hey there Peter! Nice work, this seems like quite a large task!
 +
 
 +
One question about the name (or maybe they existed before and you just combined them), but to me it sounds a little weird to have Western Russia as a subregion of Central Russia. And to a lesser extent, Northeastern & Southeastern as a subregion of Far-Eastern (but I get that one a little more). I don't know anything about Russia, just sounded weird at first sight. :)  &ndash; [[User:Cacahuate|<font color="green">cacahuate</font>]]  <sup><small>[[User talk:Cacahuate|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 14:59, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
:Agreed about the weirdness. I would prefer, I think, to leave the Far East as is&mdash;Russians refer to the Northeast as such and I don't know of a better name for the Southeast.
 +
 
 +
:I'm not very satisfied with any of the three [[Central Russia]] regions ([[Don-Voronezh Region]], [[Golden Ring]], and [[Western Russia]]). I don't know this particular region very well (which is odd, since it is the most important region) and I basically just made those up myself for lack of any better ideas. The "Central Russia" name is common use and we shouldn't replace it, but it actually is westernmost Russia. Accordingly, I called the western chunk of it "Western Russia," because "Western Central Russia" seemed too silly. And it is the extreme west of Russia, where the most intense WWII fighting occurred (which destroyed most of the legacy of this historically rich region). There is some basis for calling the "Golden Ring" area as such, but the "Don-Voronezh Region" is a bogus term I just dreamed up for the leftover category and would probably best be replaced. I'm not at all averse to completely resorting the regions of Central Russia&mdash;I just don't have any better ideas, let me know if you do.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 15:20, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
::I don't since I don't know Russia at all, but thanks for explaining that. It seems like the way you've divided it is reasonable and digestible to the traveler, and that's the most important part... if someone thinks of a better name later, it's super easy to just move the article then. &ndash; [[User:Cacahuate|<font color="green">cacahuate</font>]]  <sup><small>[[User talk:Cacahuate|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 16:04, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
==Update==
 +
 
 +
It's going to look like I'm making random changes to this hierarchy (in particular, the European Russian hierarchy) without consulting anyone. To the contrary, we've had a good debate on the Russian version over whether and how to move away from the somewhat arbitrary administrative Federal District boundaries to a more intuitive scheme that makes more sense for travel. The relevant discussions, for those interested, are [[:ru:Обсуждение:Золотое_кольцо#Промежуточная версия|here]] and [[:ru:Обсуждение:Поволжье#Регионы|here]]. The changes are as follows:
 +
 
 +
1) Split off kursk, orlov, lipetsk, tambov, voronezh, belgorod, and bryansk oblasts from Central Russia to a new top-level region, "Black Earth." I don't know if that's the optimal name, but we can always change that. Other names would be Black Earth Region, Central Black Earth, Chernozemye, Chernozem, etc.
 +
 
 +
2) Keep the rest of the Central Russian oblasts as one non-subdivided top-level region (that is, no intermediate divisions between it and the oblasts).
 +
 
 +
3) Astrakhan & Volgograd oblasts moved to the Volga Region.
 +
 
 +
4) Volga Region split into three subdivisions: Upper Volga (Kirov, Nizhny Novgorod oblasts, Mari El, Udmurtia, & Chuvashia); Middle Volga (Ulyanov, Penza, Samara oblasts, Tatarstan, and Mordovia); and Lower Volga (Astrakhan, Volgograd, and Saratov oblasts).
 +
 
 +
5) Perm, Orenburg oblasts, and Bashkiria moved to Urals.
 +
 
 +
I'm pretty sure that's it. I'd normally wait a while to see if anyone else wants to make suggestions before moving forward, but I've already changed the maps per the Russian discussions and would like to keep things on the same page. More importantly, with the exception of one current unrelated discussion about Kamchatka & Koryakia, no one else on the English version has shown any real interest in delving into the nitty-gritty of Russia's regional organization; and that's in the entire history of Wikitravel!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 00:26, 28 February 2009 (EST)
 +
 
 +
: Noone gives a fuck about Russian travel except for visa details and how to rush through all of Russia towards the Mongolian border as quickly as possible :/ anyway, I assume that black earth region is derived from a Russian equivalent - it might make sense just to use that word instead, it looks a bit arbitrary in English no? --[[User:Sertmann|Stefan (sertmann)]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Sertmann|Talk]]</sup></small> 02:09, 28 February 2009 (EST)
 +
 
 +
:: Ah missed that - I'd propose we use Chernozemye instead. --[[User:Sertmann|Stefan (sertmann)]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Sertmann|Talk]]</sup></small> 02:11, 28 February 2009 (EST)
 +
 
 +
:::Sounds fair to me. I get roughly the same number of English-language search results for both Chernozem & Chernozemye.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 13:51, 28 February 2009 (EST)
 +
 
 +
==Another update==
 +
 
 +
This is a smaller update, but I wanted to make sure that any interested parties were aware of the proposal at [[Talk:Far Eastern Russia]] to rename Far Eastern Russia to [[Russian Far East]], flatten its hierarchy, and split Sakhalin Oblast in two.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 15:19, 30 December 2009 (EST)
 +
 
 +
:And it is done.  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 15:21, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Latest revision as of 20:25, 12 January 2010


Contents

Kaliningrad Oblast[edit]

Central Russia[edit]

Northwestern Russia[edit]

Southern Russia[edit]

Urals[edit]

Siberia[edit]

Far Eastern Russia[edit]

Volga Region[edit]

Initial proposal[edit]

copied from Talk:Russia

OK, here is my approach to an overarching geographic hierarchy for Russia. The top level categories are based on the newish Russian Federal Districts + one for Kaliningrad. I made a separate category for Kaliningrad because a) this makes the subregions for Northwestern Russia total up to a maximum 9 and b) Kaliningrad is really much more in Northern Europe than in Northwestern Russia, at least from a "getting in" or "getting out" perspective. I don't think we need many smaller subdivisions, at least until a lot more Russia content gets developed.

The two aspects of this hierarchy that I find least satisfying are the sub-regions under Central Russia (Golden Ring, Don-Voronezh Region, and Western Russia) and under Volga Region (West Volga Region and East Volga Region). Of all Russia, I am least familiar with the Central and Volga regions so I had to just improvise to subdivide these regions. It would probably be better if someone could come up with alternative subdivisions for these two top-level regions based on something actually related to differences in culture, geography, history, or politics.

Lastly, I do intend to make maps (and articles where they are lacking) for subdivisions, but would of course welcome help ;) --Peterfitzgerald Talk 01:43, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

questions[edit]

Hey there Peter! Nice work, this seems like quite a large task!

One question about the name (or maybe they existed before and you just combined them), but to me it sounds a little weird to have Western Russia as a subregion of Central Russia. And to a lesser extent, Northeastern & Southeastern as a subregion of Far-Eastern (but I get that one a little more). I don't know anything about Russia, just sounded weird at first sight. :) – cacahuate talk 14:59, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Agreed about the weirdness. I would prefer, I think, to leave the Far East as is—Russians refer to the Northeast as such and I don't know of a better name for the Southeast.
I'm not very satisfied with any of the three Central Russia regions (Don-Voronezh Region, Golden Ring, and Western Russia). I don't know this particular region very well (which is odd, since it is the most important region) and I basically just made those up myself for lack of any better ideas. The "Central Russia" name is common use and we shouldn't replace it, but it actually is westernmost Russia. Accordingly, I called the western chunk of it "Western Russia," because "Western Central Russia" seemed too silly. And it is the extreme west of Russia, where the most intense WWII fighting occurred (which destroyed most of the legacy of this historically rich region). There is some basis for calling the "Golden Ring" area as such, but the "Don-Voronezh Region" is a bogus term I just dreamed up for the leftover category and would probably best be replaced. I'm not at all averse to completely resorting the regions of Central Russia—I just don't have any better ideas, let me know if you do. --Peterfitzgerald Talk 15:20, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
I don't since I don't know Russia at all, but thanks for explaining that. It seems like the way you've divided it is reasonable and digestible to the traveler, and that's the most important part... if someone thinks of a better name later, it's super easy to just move the article then. – cacahuate talk 16:04, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Update[edit]

It's going to look like I'm making random changes to this hierarchy (in particular, the European Russian hierarchy) without consulting anyone. To the contrary, we've had a good debate on the Russian version over whether and how to move away from the somewhat arbitrary administrative Federal District boundaries to a more intuitive scheme that makes more sense for travel. The relevant discussions, for those interested, are here and here. The changes are as follows:

1) Split off kursk, orlov, lipetsk, tambov, voronezh, belgorod, and bryansk oblasts from Central Russia to a new top-level region, "Black Earth." I don't know if that's the optimal name, but we can always change that. Other names would be Black Earth Region, Central Black Earth, Chernozemye, Chernozem, etc.

2) Keep the rest of the Central Russian oblasts as one non-subdivided top-level region (that is, no intermediate divisions between it and the oblasts).

3) Astrakhan & Volgograd oblasts moved to the Volga Region.

4) Volga Region split into three subdivisions: Upper Volga (Kirov, Nizhny Novgorod oblasts, Mari El, Udmurtia, & Chuvashia); Middle Volga (Ulyanov, Penza, Samara oblasts, Tatarstan, and Mordovia); and Lower Volga (Astrakhan, Volgograd, and Saratov oblasts).

5) Perm, Orenburg oblasts, and Bashkiria moved to Urals.

I'm pretty sure that's it. I'd normally wait a while to see if anyone else wants to make suggestions before moving forward, but I've already changed the maps per the Russian discussions and would like to keep things on the same page. More importantly, with the exception of one current unrelated discussion about Kamchatka & Koryakia, no one else on the English version has shown any real interest in delving into the nitty-gritty of Russia's regional organization; and that's in the entire history of Wikitravel! --Peter Talk 00:26, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Noone gives a fuck about Russian travel except for visa details and how to rush through all of Russia towards the Mongolian border as quickly as possible :/ anyway, I assume that black earth region is derived from a Russian equivalent - it might make sense just to use that word instead, it looks a bit arbitrary in English no? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 02:09, 28 February 2009 (EST)
Ah missed that - I'd propose we use Chernozemye instead. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 02:11, 28 February 2009 (EST)
Sounds fair to me. I get roughly the same number of English-language search results for both Chernozem & Chernozemye. --Peter Talk 13:51, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Another update[edit]

This is a smaller update, but I wanted to make sure that any interested parties were aware of the proposal at Talk:Far Eastern Russia to rename Far Eastern Russia to Russian Far East, flatten its hierarchy, and split Sakhalin Oblast in two. --Peter Talk 15:19, 30 December 2009 (EST)

And it is done. --Peter Talk 15:21, 12 January 2010 (EST)

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