Maj and I have been having discussions over LRC protocol about this page for a few days. There's some interesting parallels with Talk:Seattle/Districts, too. The main upshot is: what do we do with information about neighborhoods for non-huge cities? If we're not going to split the neighborhood off into its own district page, where does cohesive info about the neighborhood go? Some ideas we had:
as part of the "Understand"
as an attraction under "See" or "Do"
make a separate section ("Visit"? "Go to some neighborhoods"?)
Anyways, interesting stuff. --Evan 17:23, 4 Jan 2004 (EST)
Hmm... so I think there is/will be enough material to present Philly as a huge city and break it up into districts if we kept it down to the few major geographical divisions.. say West Philly, South Philly, Center City, North Philly, Far NE... and then within these districts include all the other little neighborhood info. What do you think? -nick 21:00, 16 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Yes, this article is in serious need of districting/templating. Jpatokal 04:17, 17 Jun 2005 (EDT)
Do not include Northern Liberties under the "North Philly" section. Along with Fishtown and Spring Garden, it forms a culturally and demographically separate section of the city that is very different from North Philadelphia. I don't know anyone from these neighborhoods that would say they live in North Philly. Also, your definition of North Philly extends way too far west and not far enough east. I would take it down to, say, D street in the east, not Front St. The western border is very windy and irregular so it's difficult to explain here, but East Falls, Manayunk, Germantown, Roxborough, Mt. Airt, and Chestnut Hill are definitely NOT in North Philadelphia. Generally when dividing the city up into big blocs of land, those neighborhoods would fall under "Northwest Philadelphia," although locally nobody calls it that. But in addition to that, they are very different in every way - culturally, economically, demographically, etc. - from North Philly. I would advise people not to visit North Philadelphia. To say it's a working class neighborhood struggling with crime is giving it way too much credit and if people are coming here to visit, you might be putting them in danger. Advise people to skip North Philly but create a separate section for Manayunk (a big nightlife spot), Germantown (historic and beautiful, but dangerous in some parts)and Mt. Airy and Chestnut Hill, where there's a lot of money and beautiful architecture along cobblestone streets.
Also - University City is also named for the University of the Sciences in Philadelphia, not just Penn and Drexel.
Please see the #Districts discussion below. Also please note that we try to group neighborhoods together in one article, even when the fit isn't perfect, when we don't have enough content to justify splitting into near-empty articles. --PeterTalk 21:00, 13 November 2010 (EST)
I removed "* Crimson Moon corner of 20th and Sansom Streets, . " from coffee shops. It closed over the summer of 2005. They are supposedly looking for a new space to reopen. 188.8.131.52 23:16, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)
So, I removed the section on skateboarding and moved the FDR park info into "Parks". --Evan 18:08, 2 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Noticed that you've listed Powelton Village and certainly agree that it's worthy of a visit. You haven't included any information however ... how about something along the lines of:
Powelton Village is a small, diverse community in the University City section of Philadelphia. It remains visually identifiable, an oasis of tree-lined streets, porch-fronted suburban houses interspersed with a few mansions and their commercial support buildings dating from the second half of the nineteenth century.
I copied it into the page, but next time, please just plunge forward and edit it yourself! --Evan 21:16, 16 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Philadelphia is looking like a Huge City. How should it be broken down? -- Huttite 17:13, 3 Jan 2006 (EST)
That sounds like the lead-in for a WC Fields joke. --Evan 23:43, 3 Jan 2006 (EST)
All right. I think I did it, but I think someone who knows the city needs to give it a once over. I'm not going to make empty spaces for these, but I'll stick the list here anyway. Can any of these be combined? I saw a lot of listings that were like "(Germantown/Mount Airy/Chestnut Hill)" -- is there a name for all of these together?
A district article for far northeast Philadelphia has been created - is it worth having it as a seperate district, or should it be merged into one of the others? -- Tim 09:08, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
I think it should be merged, there is a socio-economic difference between the northeast and far northeast, but in regards to the article, the distinctions made overlap in both. Until information about northeast philadelphia becomes so in-depth that it needs to be split (and let's face it, that'll never happen) it should be combined. Edg126 11:30, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
If there anyone reading this knows enough about Philly, please plunge forward and start merging content. This article is over-districted and should be concentrated into four or five districts, until those begin to overflow. Gorilla Jones 16:38, 14 September 2007 (EDT)
How about a 'When to come' section of the best time to come in the city for annual events w/ the dates. That's usually my interest of coming to wikitravel, finding the local events. Some suggestions:
Fourth of July
Dad Vail Regatta
Festival of World Cinema
etc... Edg126 14:42, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
Anyone know anything about getting in by plane via Skybus into Wilmington airport? That's where we're landing in a month's time but I don't know how best to get to the city. Syscrusher 01:08, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
Since Skybus is now defunct, you will probably have to fly into Philly. If you're still flying in the Wilmington / New Castle, then you will have to arrange for transportation either directly to Philly or to the Wilmington train station and take Amtrak (or SEPTA) to 30th Street Station close to Center City. --Jaar12 10:48, 14 April 2008 (EDT)
The Learn section could be greatly improved if modeled somewhat after Chicago's, the narrative form. The big boring list as it is now is terrible.
Do: Outside the Metro
In the Do section, somebody created a subsection entitled "Outside the Metro" and included this:
The Jersey Shore Visiting the Jersey shore is referred to locally as "going down the shore." Southern New Jersey's beaches include Ocean City, Atlantic City, and Cape May. Atlantic City is home to the Donald Trump casinos as well as the Borgata, Caesar's, and several other casinos. Cape May offers historical tours (and haunted tours!) of the town. And hey, it's a great way to cool off and unwind--and perhaps work off that cheesesteak!
Um, isn't this what the Get out section is for? I moved the info down to the Get out section. Wikitravellers may want to look out for non-Philly info getting snuck into this article. Eco84 02:16, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
The hotels located in the sleep section are mostly chain hotels located near the airport or outside of the city. A new article should be created listing the hotels located near the airport, and the remainder should be removed.
Rouge 21:59, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
We're about one step from redistricting Philadelphia. Once we get that finished (and it really just needs the quick input of a local), we can move any and all listings out of the main article to where they belong. --PeterTalk 22:40, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
I'm beginning to do some significant work on the Center City district page. I'd like to know if it would be possible to create new pages for the neighborhoods within the CC district, since many of them are distinct and have a lot of restaurants, things to do, etc. within them. For example, Chinatown, Rittenhouse square, Washington Square West, Old City: these different neighborhoods all have many, many different restaurants, etc. within their borders and each have very different things to do and see, not to mention buy. Can we please allow for each of these neighborhoods to have its own page?Valkyrie23 18:27, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
Maybe. There are two major concerns with creating (or subdividing) new districts: 1) Borders must be strictly defined. 2) All districts should be able to support a well developed district article (example). The second concern means that all the standard sections will be filled out nicely when the article is "finished." It's often a good idea to hold off on subdividing until the article being divided is overflowing with content. Maybe it would be a good idea to add content first, split the article later?
That said, if you have a good handle on where the street borders for these proposed districts would lie, that would be good to document here, even if we're not going to subdivide the article immediately. Good district breakdowns usually require a lot of thought to get right (example).
And no, I don't know anything about Philly's city center ;) --PeterTalk 01:46, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
OK, but let's be clear that although a district template will be needed to subdivide the CC page, these are neighborhoods, not districts, and as such are comparatively easy to divide. In fact, many of the "walking" maps of Philadelphia that you see attached to lamp posts downtown already split the city up this way. They're very brightly color-coded; for an example of one, please see this photo and map and for more detail, see this PDF.
When it was designed, CC Philadelphia was laid out like a square, with City Hall in the middle and four parks standing at each corner. Over time the boundaries expanded, so that today CC is defined by the Schuykill river to the west, the Delaware river to the east, South St. to the south, and the Vine St. expressway/I-676 to the north. The dividing lines of the neighborhoods in CC are defined by the streets that intersect at City Hall and bisect this square, Broad Street and Market Street. To the southwest of Broad and Market is the Rittenhouse Square neighborhood; to the southeast, Washington Square West; to the northwest, the Art Museum area; to the northeast, the Chinatown/Convention center area. Old City stands to the east of this square; it is defined by 5th st on the west side, South St. on the south side, Vine St. on the north side, and Front st. on the east side. Now, these boundaries aren't hard and fast, and especially in the last 10 years, CC has started to bleed south and north as neighborhoods are revitalized and feel like a part of CC. It's also true that smaller areas that have a distinct feel exist within these five large neighborhoods. But in general, this is a pretty strong definition of CC neighborhoods, and one which both the city's government and residents recognize.
As for content, the second of the two maps should indicate that each neighborhood has interesting things to see, if not do. And each neighborhood definitely has a wealth of places to eat and drink. CC is overflowing with good restaurants.
Hope this information helps, thanks!--Valkyrie23 12:13, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
I see also that some of the neighborhoods within Center City have been listed as districts in their own right on the main Philadelphia page. This is somewhat confusing. It would be OK, I think to break off Old City and make it a district equal to Center City, but then you've still got the four neighborhoods that meet at City Hall. Washington Square West, for example, should not be a district on the main Philadelphia page. --Valkyrie23 12:36, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
Hmm, it's possible that we might have a slight misunderstanding (forgive me if we don't). Wikitravel only does 4 types of destination guides: country, region, city, & district. So if a neighborhood is to have its own article, then it will be considered a district, and will need to use the district template. Since not all neighborhoods are big/dense enough to merit individual articles, it's often best to roll them into one district article. This is an ok example of how to do that—I shaded the different neighborhoods in on the map, and tried to give some basic overview in the understand section.
So all of that is to say that it could be fine to have, say, Chinatown as a district article, linked from the main page. But I don't think it would be a good idea to have "sub-districts." That would bury the content a bit too far, and could make the City Center article redundant. I'm pretty sure that the only times we've used a structure like that are for New York and London. (The former makes some sense, I think, since Brooklyn, Manhattan, etc. can be thought of as separate cities; the latter looks to me like an ad hoc mess.)
You can show that separate district articles are all part of Center City on the overview page, by grouping them. The most popular way of doing that is to use the regionlist template (example), although sub-headers would also work just fine. So if we were going to create articles for the neighborhoods of City Center, I think we should then do away with this article.
On this topic, I've never been too sure that the Philadelphia districts breakdown was very well thought out—it's certainly hard to digest for someone unfamiliar with the city. If you're feeling up to it, maybe you could take a look over them to make sure they "add up" to the whole of the city, without gaps and without overlap. If we could nail down street boundaries for the various districts, I'd be more than happy to make a Wikitravel-style districts map, like this one. --PeterTalk 02:32, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
OK, I see what you're saying. Philadelphia is a freakin' huge city. It would be awesome to have a district map like Chicago or DC. I think the general outlines of the districts are pretty hard and fast; it's the neighborhoods within them that might cause some trouble. This map should give you a good visual of how the districts break down. 99.9% of tourists will probably only visit CC and the areas immediately surrounding it, so while I can make the case for including the outer districts, I myself would be hard pressed to come up with content for them. Some areas of the outer districts can be unsavory, if not downright dangerous, and a district like the Northeast seems so far-flung to a CC resident like myself that they hardly seem part of Philadelphia (I'll wait for the abuse to come raining down on me after that statement). So some districts will have many more neighborhoods and info in them than others. I hope that someone else will volunteer to tackle areas like the Northeast or Southwest.
The districts as they stand now are nonsense. Here's my breakdown of where they belong, within the districts as they are described in the map I've linked. There are many neighborhoods that are missing as well, especially in South Philly.
Old City, Washington Square West, Art Museum area, South Street--these should all be put in a "Center City" district, along with Rittenhouse Square, and Chinatown/Convention Center.
Chestnut Hill, Mt. Airy, Manayunk, East Falls--All these neighborhoods are in the Upper North/Northwest district
Northern Liberties, Templetown, North--all in the North district
University City, West Philadelphia--in the West district. This is a little tricky, because "West" is the designation for the district west of the Schuykill river, but it's also the neighborhood (often rather rough) that is west of University City; starts around 40th or 45th st.
Fishtown--in the Frankford/Kensington district
Society Hill/Queen Village--This is a tricky one, but the greatest portion of it lies below South Street, so it's technically in South Philly, I guess. I'm surprised more South Philly neighborhoods haven't been listed here, like Bella Vista, Graduate Hospital, Gray's Ferry.
Let me know the specifics of what you would need to get started on a map. Thanks again!
--Valkyrie23 14:57, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
Hmm, so just to be sure, you are proposing we use the 11 districts as shown on the linked map, then redirect the neighborhood articles you've listed above as appropriate? If so, I think I can get to work on a map. The one obstacle is that the site doesn't clearly describe the boundaries between districts. Could you perhaps trace the street borders on to a google map like this ? Otherwise, is there another site that will give the exact borders? --PeterTalk 22:11, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
OK, here's the map I've created on Google. I've narrowed the districts down to seven, which I think is ok. Then I think all neighborhood pages should be redirected. More will have to be added in the northwest and northeast especially, but I can't say for sure which ones they are at the moment. After thinking about this, I think it might be easiest to split Center City up into "Center City West", "Center City East" and Old City, essentially dividing the district into thirds and doubling up the four neighborhoods I've mentioned above. So Rittenhouse Square and Art Museum area would become Center City West, while Chinatown/Convention Center and Washington Square West would become Center City East. Sorry if that's even more confusing.--184.108.40.206 18:00, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
Draft districts map
Nope, clear as day. I'll get to work ;) --PeterTalk 18:49, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
Ah, one point of confustion: where to put City Hall. From the map, it looks like it straddles City Center East & City Center West (and four different neighborhoods), since it is in the middle of Broad St. --PeterTalk 23:06, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
Yep, it is in the middle, so it's a toss up. I myself have always thought of City Hall more as part of the east side of CC than the west.--Valkyrie23 00:50, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
How does this map look? Please don't hold back criticism. And would you suggest adding any other roads to the map? The only road I've driven on in the area is I-95, so I don't have a good handle on which to include. --PeterTalk 04:34, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
Center City should be simplified into just Center City East/West. City Hall should be put on the east side because the neighborhood is so closely associated with the Convention Center area. Other than that the map looks fantastic Rouge 20:19, 14 November 2009 (EST)
Philly districts 2
Alright, I think I've righted most of my ignorance of the city, following a cabin fever-inspired and very fun trip (can't believe it's just 2 hrs from D.C. and I've spent so little time here!). My principal worries about the above divisions are that the Upper North, Northeast, and Southwest chapters will be practically empty until someone very knowledgeable about those areas comes along. So here's an updated map, where I propose we merge Southwest into West and Northwest into Upper North. I also followed Rouge's suggestion that we combine CC-East & Old City. We can break all of these apart in the future if we find it makes sense. I'm going to plunge forward now, since I'm full of Philly love at present (South Philly is fun!). --PeterTalk 21:12, 30 November 2009 (EST)
Scratch that, I'm going to leave Old City in its own article for the time being, as it is already pretty well developed, and seemed (to me) to have plenty enough attractions, hotels, dining, & nightlife to fill a good travel article. --PeterTalk
I'm going to vacillate again and split Upper North back into Upper North and Northeast. We already have enough content where neither article will be bare, so we might as well keep them separate now, rather than do it in the future when/if someone knowledgeable starts doing good work on them. --PeterTalk 14:42, 1 December 2009 (EST)
For reference, here are the exact changes being made:
South Street, vast majority of Society Hill-Queen Village, → South
Penns Landing, → Old City
Gayborhood, Washington Square West, Chinatown → CC-East
Manayunk, East Falls, Mt Airy, Chestnut Hill → Upper North
Far Northeast, Port Richmond → Northeast
Art Museum Area, Northern Liberties, Fishtown, Templeton → North
For reference, I'm putting all listings on Broad St into City Center East, despite it being the boundary between East & West, since it doesn't make sense for someone on Broad St to keep flipping between two print outs depending on which way they're looking. I put it in East because that's where we've put City Hall. --PeterTalk 23:35, 30 November 2009 (EST)
District borders are well defined here , for future reference. --PeterTalk 01:11, 2 December 2009 (EST)
I've finished converting the old sloppy mess into the new districts scheme, and I'm personally quite happy with the current structure. As for the quality of the articles themselves... they're still a mess. Every last one, including the overview article, needs a lot of formatting work and copyediting. Here is what I think needs to happen in order to push Philadelphia towards guide status, rather than mere usable status:
All individual listings need to be moved to the appropriate district article—none should be left in the main article
All lazy bulleted lists in the main article need to be converted to prose overviews
That's only a few tasks, although each will probably be pretty time intensive. Aside from those, all district articles will need basic "get in" info, as well as at least a couple eat and sleep listings. That part will actually be really easy for anyone who knows the city at all. I hope someone takes on these tasks to make a great guide for a great city! --PeterTalk 01:07, 2 December 2009 (EST)
To help provide extra focus, here is the current districts status:
Philadelphia is quite far from guide status at this point, but I'm planning to make this my next big project. To get focused, here is the current districts status. They're actually almost all strong usables, although they remain a bit messy following the mass merging of the districting process. --PeterTalk 18:29, 23 July 2010 (EDT)
A district is needed for southwest philadelphia for the ubiquitous airport hotels...or will we put them in West Philadelphia Rouge 12:29, 31 December 2009 (EST)
Unless there are other things to see/do in the Southwest, I'd prefer we don't create a district article that will just stay empty. We could perhaps create a subsection of West Philadelphia's sleep section for the airport hotels? --PeterTalk 13:28, 31 December 2009 (EST)
Some old district text
This was located in the Drinks section for some reason, but doesn't actually say anything specifically pertaining to drinks, and duplicates info that might be better for the district overviews. Moved here temporarily. -- psychofish 10:43, 19 June 2010 (EDT)
South Street - long narrow street in Center City with filled many bars/nightclubs/comedy clubs ranging from "dive" to "respectable". Additionally, there's the "Headhouse Square" on second street just north of south st which is a quaint home to an old market (actually new market is its name) and a number of bars and restaurants.
Penn's Landing/Delaware Avenue - Most drinking establishments are nightclubs and loud dance clubs. They are not easy to get to, so having a car helps. This area was once a large player in the nightlife scene before the explosion in nightlife in center city proper.
West Philly - many small neighborhood bars and dance clubs, Ethiopian establishments. You'll find Karaoke, blue grass and all around nice nights.
University City- This area has seen a dramatic increase in new restaurant and bar establishments in recent years in the areas between Drexel and 40th St., largely around Walnut St. College drinking establishments around/on Walnut, Sansom, Chestnut, and Spruce Sts.
Northeast Philly, (95 N from Center City via Cottman Ave exit, Last stop on the Market-Frankford line, Frankford transportation center, connecting to the 66 Bus). Northeast Philly is made up of mostly Irish Catholic neighborhoods, known for pubs, bars, and after hour clubs. Frankford Avenue is home to over 25 bars from Harbison Ave. to Solly Ave. in the Northeast. Rauchet's, Coach's, The COG, Reale's, Casper's, The Last Call, The Aldine, and Tom's Pub and the venerable beer bar Grey Lodge Tavern. Great specials can be found at all of these bars. A cheap way to drink during Phillies or Eagles games is at Coach's, with a $10 all you can drink draft beer special. Paddywhacks is another popular bar in Northeast Philadelphia, located on the Roosevelt Blvd. Paddywhacks also has a location on South St. if the commute to the Northeast is too far. After hours clubs are also available in the Northeast, with the most popular club being the Yik-Yak. The Yik-Yak is open till 3AM and even later for members. The diners along Frankford Ave. are a popular after-hours spot to get something to eat, including the Mayfair Diner, The Red-Robin Diner, and The Dining Car.
Northern Liberties, 19123. Northern Liberties is one of the most up and coming neighborhoods in Philadelphia. With recent condos and million dollar housing being built, the real estate in Northern Liberties has sky rocketed, making the scene some-what of a "yuppie" or "hipster" atmosphere. The Piazza, the newest addition to NL, is beautifully landscaped, 80,000 square foot open-air plaza with free events year-round, surrounded by three new buildings including 35 artist’s studios and boutiques, four new restaurants, 500 apartments and 50,000 square feet of office space. The Piazza is a sight to be seen in Philadelphia, surrounded by night life, restaurants, and even a bar/bowling alley, North Bowl. Northern Liberties is a great place to drink and socialize while living or visiting Philadelphia.
Art Museum Area-includes the neighborhoods of Spring Garden and Fairmount near the Art Museum. these neighborhoods are home to a number of establishments primarily on or just off Fairmount Ave (which runs to the museum). London and Rembrandt'sare both long time bars dating back a century or more, complete with tiles, tin ceilings, troughs and cater to a diverse crowd (which means attention is paid to beer AND wine as well as food). there are a number of other notable places such as Brigid's (the city's original beer bar), Belgian Cafe (sister of Monk's), St. Stephen's Green, and the ancient dive bar (with beautiful tile work) Kelli Ann's.
Passyunk Ave-this street which runs from 5th and South to the schuylkill expressway, the former and commercial district in South Philly, has recently come alive at night with old timers such as Marra's serving wine and pizza and newcomers such as Pub on Passyunk East, Cantina, Royal Tavern, Lucky 13, two capogrio gelato shops, coffee shops,etc. Distinct sections are part of Queen Village/Bella Vista (5th to Washington ave) and Passyunk Sq (Dickinson to Snyder]. West of Broad has shown some signs of new nightlife but is largely commercial.
Center City-technically vine to south, river to river, is home to what seems like an ever increasing number of watering holes and has become the region's premier nightlife destination. It has a number of submarkets including, but not limited to:
Old City-This is the area that deflated Delaware Avenue. It's chock full of restaurants, bars, and clubs like Cuba Libre, Eulogy Belgian Tavern, Race St Cafe, Fork, Amada (renowned spanish bar and restaurant), National Mechanics Bank, Triumph brewpub, and many, many more.
13th st-once the city's red light district that was a veritable flea market from vine to pine it has blossomed into a growing nightlife destination (mainly south of market) including el Vez, Vintage wine bar, Sampan, Zavino pizza, Time absinthe, whiskey, and beer bar, the original capogiro gelato, bindi Indian fusion, Amis roman style trattoria, and many more.
West of Broad-the city's most developed section includes the venerable Monk's Belgian Cafe, Parc restaurant on Rittenhouse Sq, Rouge, Village Whiskey, and the Oyster House and probably a hundred more.
I agree the prose could be better, but it's not like nothing is said about bars and nightlife. --globe-trotter 11:55, 19 June 2010 (EDT)
Actually, I do think this is somewhat along the lines of what we want—information about the nightlife scene around town (in addition to information on local beverages). For inspiration, you might find it useful to take a look at Chicago#Drink, or perhaps Washington, D.C.#Drink. --PeterTalk 20:45, 19 June 2010 (EDT)
Yes, I take that back about not saying anything about bars and nightlife (don't know what I was thinking) but basically I just found the whole thing to be unwieldy, and too scattered to work as an overview. Working on this section specifically, especially with districts I'm personally not too familar with, is going to be tough but I'll be giving it a shot over the next week or so. --psychofish 17:26, 24 June 2010 (EDT)