:Alright, I think I've righted most of my ignorance of the city, following a cabin fever-inspired and very fun trip (can't believe it's just 2 hrs from D.C. and I've spent so little time here!). My principal worries about the above divisions are that the Upper North, Northeast, and Southwest chapters will be practically empty until someone very knowledgeable about those areas comes along. So here's an updated map, where I propose we merge Southwest into West and Northwest into Upper North. I also followed Rouge's suggestion that we combine CC-East & Old Town. We can break all of these apart in the future if we find it makes sense. I'm going to plunge forward now, since I'm full of Philly love at present (South Philly is fun!). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:12, 30 November 2009 (EST)
:Alright, I think I've righted most of my ignorance of the city, following a cabin fever-inspired and very fun trip (can't believe it's just 2 hrs from D.C. and I've spent so little time here!). My principal worries about the above divisions are that the Upper North, Northeast, and Southwest chapters will be practically empty until someone very knowledgeable about those areas comes along. So here's an updated map, where I propose we merge Southwest into West and Northwest into Upper North. I also followed Rouge's suggestion that we combine CC-East & Old . We can break all of these apart in the future if we find it makes sense. I'm going to plunge forward now, since I'm full of Philly love at present (South Philly is fun!). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:12
Maj and I have been having discussions over LRC protocol about this page for a few days. There's some interesting parallels with Talk:Seattle/Districts, too. The main upshot is: what do we do with information about neighborhoods for non-huge cities? If we're not going to split the neighborhood off into its own district page, where does cohesive info about the neighborhood go? Some ideas we had:
as part of the "Understand"
as an attraction under "See" or "Do"
make a separate section ("Visit"? "Go to some neighborhoods"?)
Anyways, interesting stuff. --Evan 17:23, 4 Jan 2004 (EST)
Hmm... so I think there is/will be enough material to present Philly as a huge city and break it up into districts if we kept it down to the few major geographical divisions.. say West Philly, South Philly, Center City, North Philly, Far NE... and then within these districts include all the other little neighborhood info. What do you think? -nick 21:00, 16 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Yes, this article is in serious need of districting/templating. Jpatokal 04:17, 17 Jun 2005 (EDT)
I removed "* Crimson Moon corner of 20th and Sansom Streets, . " from coffee shops. It closed over the summer of 2005. They are supposedly looking for a new space to reopen. 18.104.22.168 23:16, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)
So, I removed the section on skateboarding and moved the FDR park info into "Parks". --Evan 18:08, 2 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Noticed that you've listed Powelton Village and certainly agree that it's worthy of a visit. You haven't included any information however ... how about something along the lines of:
Powelton Village is a small, diverse community in the University City section of Philadelphia. It remains visually identifiable, an oasis of tree-lined streets, porch-fronted suburban houses interspersed with a few mansions and their commercial support buildings dating from the second half of the nineteenth century.
I copied it into the page, but next time, please just plunge forward and edit it yourself! --Evan 21:16, 16 Aug 2004 (EDT)
Philadelphia is looking like a Huge City. How should it be broken down? -- Huttite 17:13, 3 Jan 2006 (EST)
That sounds like the lead-in for a WC Fields joke. --Evan 23:43, 3 Jan 2006 (EST)
All right. I think I did it, but I think someone who knows the city needs to give it a once over. I'm not going to make empty spaces for these, but I'll stick the list here anyway. Can any of these be combined? I saw a lot of listings that were like "(Germantown/Mount Airy/Chestnut Hill)" -- is there a name for all of these together?
A district article for far northeast Philadelphia has been created - is it worth having it as a seperate district, or should it be merged into one of the others? -- Tim 09:08, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
I think it should be merged, there is a socio-economic difference between the northeast and far northeast, but in regards to the article, the distinctions made overlap in both. Until information about northeast philadelphia becomes so in-depth that it needs to be split (and let's face it, that'll never happen) it should be combined. Edg126 11:30, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
If there anyone reading this knows enough about Philly, please plunge forward and start merging content. This article is over-districted and should be concentrated into four or five districts, until those begin to overflow. Gorilla Jones 16:38, 14 September 2007 (EDT)
How about a 'When to come' section of the best time to come in the city for annual events w/ the dates. That's usually my interest of coming to wikitravel, finding the local events. Some suggestions:
Fourth of July
Dad Vail Regatta
Festival of World Cinema
etc... Edg126 14:42, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
Anyone know anything about getting in by plane via Skybus into Wilmington airport? That's where we're landing in a month's time but I don't know how best to get to the city. Syscrusher 01:08, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
Since Skybus is now defunct, you will probably have to fly into Philly. If you're still flying in the Wilmington / New Castle, then you will have to arrange for transportation either directly to Philly or to the Wilmington train station and take Amtrak (or SEPTA) to 30th Street Station close to Center City. --Jaar12 10:48, 14 April 2008 (EDT)
The Learn section could be greatly improved if modeled somewhat after Chicago's, the narrative form. The big boring list as it is now is terrible.
Do: Outside the Metro
In the Do section, somebody created a subsection entitled "Outside the Metro" and included this:
The Jersey Shore Visiting the Jersey shore is referred to locally as "going down the shore." Southern New Jersey's beaches include Ocean City, Atlantic City, and Cape May. Atlantic City is home to the Donald Trump casinos as well as the Borgata, Caesar's, and several other casinos. Cape May offers historical tours (and haunted tours!) of the town. And hey, it's a great way to cool off and unwind--and perhaps work off that cheesesteak!
Um, isn't this what the Get out section is for? I moved the info down to the Get out section. Wikitravellers may want to look out for non-Philly info getting snuck into this article. Eco84 02:16, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
The hotels located in the sleep section are mostly chain hotels located near the airport or outside of the city. A new article should be created listing the hotels located near the airport, and the remainder should be removed.
Rouge 21:59, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
We're about one step from redistricting Philadelphia. Once we get that finished (and it really just needs the quick input of a local), we can move any and all listings out of the main article to where they belong. --PeterTalk 22:40, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
I'm beginning to do some significant work on the Center City district page. I'd like to know if it would be possible to create new pages for the neighborhoods within the CC district, since many of them are distinct and have a lot of restaurants, things to do, etc. within them. For example, Chinatown, Rittenhouse square, Washington Square West, Old City: these different neighborhoods all have many, many different restaurants, etc. within their borders and each have very different things to do and see, not to mention buy. Can we please allow for each of these neighborhoods to have its own page?Valkyrie23 18:27, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
Maybe. There are two major concerns with creating (or subdividing) new districts: 1) Borders must be strictly defined. 2) All districts should be able to support a well developed district article (example). The second concern means that all the standard sections will be filled out nicely when the article is "finished." It's often a good idea to hold off on subdividing until the article being divided is overflowing with content. Maybe it would be a good idea to add content first, split the article later?
That said, if you have a good handle on where the street borders for these proposed districts would lie, that would be good to document here, even if we're not going to subdivide the article immediately. Good district breakdowns usually require a lot of thought to get right (example).
And no, I don't know anything about Philly's city center ;) --PeterTalk 01:46, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
OK, but let's be clear that although a district template will be needed to subdivide the CC page, these are neighborhoods, not districts, and as such are comparatively easy to divide. In fact, many of the "walking" maps of Philadelphia that you see attached to lamp posts downtown already split the city up this way. They're very brightly color-coded; for an example of one, please see this photo and map and for more detail, see this PDF.
When it was designed, CC Philadelphia was laid out like a square, with City Hall in the middle and four parks standing at each corner. Over time the boundaries expanded, so that today CC is defined by the Schuykill river to the west, the Delaware river to the east, South St. to the south, and the Vine St. expressway/I-676 to the north. The dividing lines of the neighborhoods in CC are defined by the streets that intersect at City Hall and bisect this square, Broad Street and Market Street. To the southwest of Broad and Market is the Rittenhouse Square neighborhood; to the southeast, Washington Square West; to the northwest, the Art Museum area; to the northeast, the Chinatown/Convention center area. Old City stands to the east of this square; it is defined by 5th st on the west side, South St. on the south side, Vine St. on the north side, and Front st. on the east side. Now, these boundaries aren't hard and fast, and especially in the last 10 years, CC has started to bleed south and north as neighborhoods are revitalized and feel like a part of CC. It's also true that smaller areas that have a distinct feel exist within these five large neighborhoods. But in general, this is a pretty strong definition of CC neighborhoods, and one which both the city's government and residents recognize.
As for content, the second of the two maps should indicate that each neighborhood has interesting things to see, if not do. And each neighborhood definitely has a wealth of places to eat and drink. CC is overflowing with good restaurants.
Hope this information helps, thanks!--Valkyrie23 12:13, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
I see also that some of the neighborhoods within Center City have been listed as districts in their own right on the main Philadelphia page. This is somewhat confusing. It would be OK, I think to break off Old City and make it a district equal to Center City, but then you've still got the four neighborhoods that meet at City Hall. Washington Square West, for example, should not be a district on the main Philadelphia page. --Valkyrie23 12:36, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
Hmm, it's possible that we might have a slight misunderstanding (forgive me if we don't). Wikitravel only does 4 types of destination guides: country, region, city, & district. So if a neighborhood is to have its own article, then it will be considered a district, and will need to use the district template. Since not all neighborhoods are big/dense enough to merit individual articles, it's often best to roll them into one district article. This is an ok example of how to do that—I shaded the different neighborhoods in on the map, and tried to give some basic overview in the understand section.
So all of that is to say that it could be fine to have, say, Chinatown as a district article, linked from the main page. But I don't think it would be a good idea to have "sub-districts." That would bury the content a bit too far, and could make the City Center article redundant. I'm pretty sure that the only times we've used a structure like that are for New York and London. (The former makes some sense, I think, since Brooklyn, Manhattan, etc. can be thought of as separate cities; the latter looks to me like an ad hoc mess.)
You can show that separate district articles are all part of Center City on the overview page, by grouping them. The most popular way of doing that is to use the regionlist template (example), although sub-headers would also work just fine. So if we were going to create articles for the neighborhoods of City Center, I think we should then do away with this article.
On this topic, I've never been too sure that the Philadelphia districts breakdown was very well thought out—it's certainly hard to digest for someone unfamiliar with the city. If you're feeling up to it, maybe you could take a look over them to make sure they "add up" to the whole of the city, without gaps and without overlap. If we could nail down street boundaries for the various districts, I'd be more than happy to make a Wikitravel-style districts map, like this one. --PeterTalk 02:32, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
OK, I see what you're saying. Philadelphia is a freakin' huge city. It would be awesome to have a district map like Chicago or DC. I think the general outlines of the districts are pretty hard and fast; it's the neighborhoods within them that might cause some trouble. This map should give you a good visual of how the districts break down. 99.9% of tourists will probably only visit CC and the areas immediately surrounding it, so while I can make the case for including the outer districts, I myself would be hard pressed to come up with content for them. Some areas of the outer districts can be unsavory, if not downright dangerous, and a district like the Northeast seems so far-flung to a CC resident like myself that they hardly seem part of Philadelphia (I'll wait for the abuse to come raining down on me after that statement). So some districts will have many more neighborhoods and info in them than others. I hope that someone else will volunteer to tackle areas like the Northeast or Southwest.
The districts as they stand now are nonsense. Here's my breakdown of where they belong, within the districts as they are described in the map I've linked. There are many neighborhoods that are missing as well, especially in South Philly.
Old City, Washington Square West, Art Museum area, South Street--these should all be put in a "Center City" district, along with Rittenhouse Square, and Chinatown/Convention Center.
Chestnut Hill, Mt. Airy, Manayunk, East Falls--All these neighborhoods are in the Upper North/Northwest district
Northern Liberties, Templetown, North--all in the North district
University City, West Philadelphia--in the West district. This is a little tricky, because "West" is the designation for the district west of the Schuykill river, but it's also the neighborhood (often rather rough) that is west of University City; starts around 40th or 45th st.
Fishtown--in the Frankford/Kensington district
Society Hill/Queen Village--This is a tricky one, but the greatest portion of it lies below South Street, so it's technically in South Philly, I guess. I'm surprised more South Philly neighborhoods haven't been listed here, like Bella Vista, Graduate Hospital, Gray's Ferry.
Let me know the specifics of what you would need to get started on a map. Thanks again!
--Valkyrie23 14:57, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
Hmm, so just to be sure, you are proposing we use the 11 districts as shown on the linked map, then redirect the neighborhood articles you've listed above as appropriate? If so, I think I can get to work on a map. The one obstacle is that the site doesn't clearly describe the boundaries between districts. Could you perhaps trace the street borders on to a google map like this ? Otherwise, is there another site that will give the exact borders? --PeterTalk 22:11, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
OK, here's the map I've created on Google. I've narrowed the districts down to seven, which I think is ok. Then I think all neighborhood pages should be redirected. More will have to be added in the northwest and northeast especially, but I can't say for sure which ones they are at the moment. After thinking about this, I think it might be easiest to split Center City up into "Center City West", "Center City East" and Old City, essentially dividing the district into thirds and doubling up the four neighborhoods I've mentioned above. So Rittenhouse Square and Art Museum area would become Center City West, while Chinatown/Convention Center and Washington Square West would become Center City East. Sorry if that's even more confusing.--22.214.171.124 18:00, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
Draft districts map
Nope, clear as day. I'll get to work ;) --PeterTalk 18:49, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
Ah, one point of confustion: where to put City Hall. From the map, it looks like it straddles City Center East & City Center West (and four different neighborhoods), since it is in the middle of Broad St. --PeterTalk 23:06, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
Yep, it is in the middle, so it's a toss up. I myself have always thought of City Hall more as part of the east side of CC than the west.--Valkyrie23 00:50, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
How does this map look? Please don't hold back criticism. And would you suggest adding any other roads to the map? The only road I've driven on in the area is I-95, so I don't have a good handle on which to include. --PeterTalk 04:34, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
Center City should be simplified into just Center City East/West. City Hall should be put on the east side because the neighborhood is so closely associated with the Convention Center area. Other than that the map looks fantastic Rouge 20:19, 14 November 2009 (EST)
Philly districts 2
Alright, I think I've righted most of my ignorance of the city, following a cabin fever-inspired and very fun trip (can't believe it's just 2 hrs from D.C. and I've spent so little time here!). My principal worries about the above divisions are that the Upper North, Northeast, and Southwest chapters will be practically empty until someone very knowledgeable about those areas comes along. So here's an updated map, where I propose we merge Southwest into West and Northwest into Upper North. I also followed Rouge's suggestion that we combine CC-East & Old City. We can break all of these apart in the future if we find it makes sense. I'm going to plunge forward now, since I'm full of Philly love at present (South Philly is fun!). --PeterTalk 21:12, 30 November 2009 (EST)
Scratch that, I'm going to leave Old City in its own article for the time being, as it is already pretty well developed, and seemed (to me) to have plenty enough attractions, hotels, dining, & nightlife to fill a good travel article.
For reference, here are the exact changes being made:
South Street, vast majority of Society Hill-Queen Village, → South
Penns Landing, → Old City
Gayborhood, Washington Square West, Chinatown → CC-East
Manayunk, East Falls, Far Northeast, Mt Airy, Chestnut Hill, Port Richmond → Upper North
Art Museum Area, Northern Liberties, Fishtown, Templeton → North