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Talk:Persian phrasebook

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Revision as of 10:45, 12 August 2008 by Alijsh (Talk | contribs) (Clean up and improvement)

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Month names

I edited in the Gregorian month names, and took out the persian names since I can't type them correctly presently. Here are the months with the dates they typically correspond to in the Gregorian Calendar.

April (Farvardin) (Mar 21-April 20)
May (Ordibehesht) (April 21-May 21)
June (Khordad) (May 22 - June 22)
July (Tir) (June 22 - July 22)
August (Mordad) (July 23 - August 22)
September (Shahrivar) (August 23 - September 22)
October (Mehr) (September 23 - October 22)
November (Aban) (October 23 - November 21)
December (Azar) (November 22 - December 21)
January (Day) (Dec 22-Jan 20)
February (Bahman) (Jan 21-Feb 19)
March (Esfand) (Feb 20 - March 20)

Jaytan 01:49, 29 October 2007 (EDT)

Lost phrases

I moved the following information from Iran#Talk. It should be integrated into this phrasebook. --Evan 14:29, 15 December 2006 (EST)

Here's some useful Persian words:

  • Merci ,motchakeram, Sepasgozaram ( Thank you )
  • Bebakhsheed (Excuse me)
  • Komak ( Help )
  • Man gom shodam ! ( I'm lost )
  • Komakam Konid ( Help me )
  • Man Mitarsam ( I'm afraid)
  • Nemifahmam Chimigid ( I can't understand what you are saying )
  • Ingilisi Baladid ? (Can you speak English ? )
  • Nemidoonam ( I don't know )
  • Dokhtar ( Girl, Daughter )
  • Pesar ( Boy, Son )
  • Khanoom ( Lady )--placed after the name
  • Aaghaa ( Gentleman)
  • Dastshoo'ee Kojaast ? ( Where's the WC ?)
  • Hamaam Kojaast ? ( Where's the bathroom ? )
  • Hotel "something" kojaast ? ( Where's "something" hotel? )
  • Mishe yek taxi baraye man begirid ? ( Could you please get me a taxi ? )
  • Istgaheh Raah'aahan Kojaast ? ( Where's the train station ? )
  • Foroodgah Kojaast ? ( Where's the airport ? )
  • Istgaheh Metro Kojast ? ( Where's the subway (BrE: Underground) ?)
  • In Otoboos Kojaa Mireh ? ( Where does this bus go ? )
  • Sefaarateh "country name in Persian" Kojaast ? ( Where's the "nationality in English" embassy? )

example > Sefaarateh faraanseh Kojaast ? ( Where's the French embassy ? )

  • Esme Shoma? (What is your name?)
  • Lotfan (Please)
  • Lazem (Need)
  • Ghazaa(Food)

Country names in Persian:

  • Germany > aalmaan
  • France > faraanseh
  • Britain > engelis
  • Japan > zhapon
  • Italy > Italia
  • Russia > roosiyeh
  • India > hend
  • Canada > Caanaadaa
  • Switzerland > Swiss
  • Iraq > araagh
  • Turkey > torkieh
  • China > cheen
  • Hungary > majaarestan
  • Poland > lahestan
  • Austria > otrish

Persian vs. Farsi

In the Iran article it states that a visitor should refer to the language as Farsi rather than Persian... should we rename this article Farsi? Are the phrases in this article so far based on Iranian Farsi, or is it a mix of stuff from other countries too? I know they speak a version of Persian in Afghanistan, etc... but why not call this article Farsi, and then create a Dari phrasebook for Afghanistan and Tajik Persian phrasebook for Tajikistan? – cacahuate talk 02:13, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

I would definitely support a move to Farsi phrasebook, principally because it is the name by which the language is most familiar to native English speakers, at least in the US. I actually use the name Persian myself, but find it to be a bit of a novelty for most people I talk to.
Unfortunately, though, this is a bit complicated politically. Historically, the English-speaking world used "Persian," while Iranians referred to the language as "Farsi." The revolutionary government in Iran changed the official English word to Farsi, and that then became the standard, but many Iranians preferred the original English term "Persian" because it tied the language to its ancient literary/cultural past and distinguished their country from neighboring Arab states. So, we might have to brace ourselves for some politically motivated edits.
Lastly, the distinction between Farsi, Dari, and Tajik is not very great, so (again for political reasons) some prefer that they all be called Persian to stress the unity of these dialects/languages and of the people who speak them. For the traveler it definitely makes sense to have a separate Tajik phrasebook because the language diverged due to Russian influence and is written in Cyrillic. Dari on the other hand is very similar, but if someone wrote the phrasebook, that would be a bit more useful in Afghanistan. We should probably have notes in the talk section of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan explaining that knowing one of these Persian languages/dialects will probably enable you to get by where another is spoken. --Peterfitzgerald Talk 14:34, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

I think it would be a mistake to change Persian to Farsi. Farsi is a Persian word - it is the Persian word for Persian! So of course Iranians have called the language Farsi - that is what the word is in their language. Saying "I speak Farsi" or a "Farsi Phrasebook" is like saying "I speak Espanol" or a "Francais Phrasebook"!

Second, there are MANY differences between Persian as it is spoken in Iran and Dari and Tajik. As a native speaker of Persian, I often have trouble understanding Dari and Tajik because the syntax is different and they also use certain words to mean slightly different things, which in context can make a big difference. Plus, even politically speaking, Iranians do not have any inclination to be painted with the same brush as Afghans or the Tajik, so unity is not an issue. So for a traveler, it is vital to appreciate these differences and respect them. Otherwise, the person would quickly be labeled an ignorant and arrogant foreigner who sees all the people from that region as being the same without appreciating the differences.

Third, the Persian phrases used in this article are overly formal and unnecessarily burdensome and no one actually talks like that. Some of the phrases would in fact invite chuckles from native speakers. But I don't want to go through the trouble of fixing the whole thing only to spark an argument and have people change it all back. So before any major edits are made, there needs to be a consensus about what the purpose of this article is. There is a huge difference in Iran between "Book Persian" and "Conversational Persian." And there are some mistakes that need to be fixed. (I fixed one; "Ham" means pork, so it is "Ghoosht-e Khook"; not Hamburger!)

Finally, the transliteration style is not uniform or user-friendly. At times, I even had difficulty figuring out what the word was, so it is doubtful people can get the right pronunciation. Again, that is a change that would need to be applied uniformly. Smalek 13:02, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Thank you for your interest in this article, I'm sure it would benefit from your help! Please do change the phrases to conversational Persian, rather than literary Persian, as the former is much more useful to travelers. I don't speak Persian, so I can't comment on the transliteration scheme as it is employed here, but please take a look at Wikitravel:Pseudo-phoneticization guide—Wikitravel prefers an unsophisticated, but very accessible (to native English speakers) transliteration standard across all phrasebooks.
As for the Farsi v. Persian question, I think your response actually supports a move of this page to Farsi phrasebook, to distinguish it from the other Persian languages of Dari and Tajik, since, as you say, they are sufficiently different where separate phrasebooks would be appropriate. I cannot speak for all English speaking countries, but in the United States, "Farsi" has become the most common name in English to describe the official language of Iran (similar to how Americans now refer to citizens of Iran as Iranians, rather than the historical Persians). Most English speakers, alas, are actually unaware of the link between Persia and Iran. So while yes, Farsi is a Persian word, rather than a long-established English word, it has become the most common word in daily English usage. The word Persian, however, is most often used as a more general term (in English) to refer to all three languages/dialects (as evident here). So I think that this page should be moved to Farsi phrasebook, and we should create a disambiguation page here referring readers to Farsi phrasebook, Tajik phrasebook, and Dari phrasebook. I think that would make the relationship between the Persian languages most clear for travelers. Does this sound reasonable? --Peter Talk 17:53, 11 January 2008 (EST)
I went ahead and created Dari phrasebook, I'll wait a little longer before we move this article to Farsi phrasebook... any other objections? – cacahuate talk 22:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
Not from me—we have separate phrasebooks even for Australian English, and "Farsi" is undoubtably the most common name used to distinguish the language of Iran from Dari and Tajik. I say go for it. --Peter Talk 21:42, 27 March 2008 (EDT)
Different dialects are normally named after the country. So, the Persian of Iran can be referred to as "Iranian Persian", that of Afghanistan: Afghanistani Persian, and finally that of Tajikistan: Tajikistani Persian. In English, we also say American/British/Australian/Canadian/etc. English, also: Canadian French, Austrian German, Egyptian Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, etc. So, let's follow the trend and don't use local names. After all, we are writing the pages in English and not in the local language. Thanks for your understanding. --Alijsh 23:05, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Clean up and improvement

Hi. I just revisited this page after a long time and as I noticed various shortcomings (especially in pronunciations). I decided to help to improve this page. Since I'll alter the pronunciations as the first step, I decided to write about what I'm going to do and inform people who have worked before me on this page:

As for showing pronunciations, there's a somehow standard Latin-based writing system used in various Persian educational books, dictionaries, academic books, etc. I'll use it here to present the pronunciations with only two differences:

  1. I'll use ø to denote the glottal stop rather than the apostrophe which can be used to denote contractions. Apostrophe is a punctuation mark and not suitable to denote a sound with.
  2. I'll use ch instead of č (which is also written simply as c)

NOTE - gh, kh, sh, zh are tempting but these digraphs can lead to misreading. The reason is that, for example, s and h don't always form a digraph and there are cases where they are pronounced individually e.g. eshâl. That's why they are not used neither in most educational books nor in academic circles at all. They are shown with q, x, š, ž respectively.

P.S. I improved the pronunciation section meanwhile. I'll get to the other sections soon.--Alijsh 01:07, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

I have modified the page up to "numbers". That's it for today. --Alijsh 02:56, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
New sections: Syllable, Stress; "time" section and all its subsections were cleaned up, corrected and expanded.--Alijsh 00:42, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
A major update. New section: Basic grammar (more to be added, though); Updated sections up to "Bars". Soon, Persian joins "Complete" pages (hopefully).--Alijsh 13:05, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
Ok. I'm finished. Now, the Persian page qualifies "complete". I have added a full section about Persian grammar that can also be exported to the other Wiki's. I deleted the section about "love". It's a sensitive topic and demands a fair knowledge of the language or it can easily lead to misunderstanding. Especially regarding Iranians and their culture. I must recheck the document to correct possible typos. --Alijsh 06:41, 12 August 2008 (EDT)