18 mentions of Tokyo seems excessive to me. Chicago has only 3 mentions of New York.
English summary of the discussion below:
Anon: The current text is biased. There are too many references to Tokyo and it repeats all the usual myths about Osaka (gangsters, merchants, people saying moukarimakka).
Jpatokal: The gangster thing has been NPOV'ed. It's difficult to describe Osaka without comparing it to Tokyo, which is much better known outside Japan. Jpatokal 23:20, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)
- 例えば？Jpatokal 20:21, 8 Jan 2006 (EST)
>its inhabitants exhibit a strong rivalry towards the Kanto region
- まあ‥ そうじゃないか？ 大阪に住んでる巨人ファンが少ないと思う‥
- は～い。"friendly rivalry"にした。
- "Japan's best place to eat, drink and party"が酷すぎる!?
- なるほど。直しました。Jpatokal 00:42, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)
"Kita has tall buildings"とか"Minami has many shops"と書いてもいいけど、雰囲気はあまり通じないと思う。日本に行く外人が大体皆「銀座」とか「新宿」を何となく分かるからさあ‥
Jpatokal 22:58, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)
- The following comment was posted under the text of Understand, which I've altered to address some of the suggestions. Joel, 11:41, 13 June 2006
Request for Clarification
>>Kansai Scene Magazine is a source for current club listings in Osaka, Kyoto and Kobe.
Useful the referred-to site may be, but is providing a link to this site conforming to the Wikitravel policy after all?
South to Shin-Imamiya Station is the area called "Airin" あいりん地区 or "Kamagasaki" 釜ヶ崎.
It can be dangerous all day, not only at nights. Unless visiting this type of places is a part of your objective, I would rather say avoid if possible.
Many references are available on searches thru the Net not only in Japanese, but interestingly enough in English too.
With that said here, I have no further intent to edit the main article so long as this topic is concerned. 60dot 07:59, 1 March 2007 (EST)
(end of section above)
- どうぞ。英語の方がいいけど。Jpatokal 00:39, 1 March 2007 (EST)
You didn’t give source of the information.
Answer the followinng questions as soon as passible！
Do you know about Osaka only from hearsay? Is it all information from second hand?
Oder your own speculation ？
Is it true that you speak Japanese “fluently”？
Are you just one who is the first violinist for the description of “mokarimakka” in English ？
- 難波っ子の彼女に聞いてくれ。 Jpatokal 10:05, 1 March 2007 (EST)
難波っ子の彼女？ その人間からの聞きかじりa smatterling of information を英文にしたのかな？Jpatokal、まだ答えていないけれど、これは重要な質問。それとも、答えられない理由でもあるのかな？
Since the year before last Osaka City and its filial organizations are
investigating the scene of Anti‐Osaka‐Campaign which spreads on a worldwide
Jpatokal, you are the instigator of this Campaign！
It’s already grown into a social problem.
Slowly but certainly you get a feeling for a change in your life, don’t you？
Your responsibility weigh extreme heavily.
A legal measure will be initiated against YOU ！
It’s a calumnation （defamation）; According to Japanese Criminal Law
maximal to ３ years’ imprisonment.
Do you wish to live further as a citizen in Japan, or to spend as an ex-
convict the rest of your life？
It is advisable for you to make a clean breast of your motive for that article
Both Tokyo and Yokohama are larger than Osaka. Of course, a hair-splitting bureaucrat would object that Tokyo is a 都, not a 市, but we're not hair-splitting bureaucrats. Jpatokal 10:46, 1 March 2007 (EST)
- 横浜市 3,606,902人（2007年2月1日）
- 大阪市 2,636,256人（2007年1月1日）
- 市の夜間人口比べるのですか？ 昼間人口は大阪市350万人、横浜市250万人だよ。
（それにしても、日本語が分からない人たちにとっては、これらの書き込み、なんなんだろうな・・と思うでしょうね。 （＾＾； ）
220.127.116.11 : 13:24, 2 Mar. 2007 (JST)
I tried to keep the anti-Tokyo stuff in, with some modifications, and moving it into an infobox. In my honest opinion, it is better pulled out though; this disussion really doesn't belong here.
I understand many of you are good at Japanese, so why not try Googling with keywords like "大阪 東京 関西 関東 ライバル 対抗 意識" and think over. 60dot 07:27, 3 March 2007 (EST)
- I think the bigger problem here is that most of you don't seem to understand English. It's not a bad thing to be an "anti-capital": it means that the city is almost as important as a capital, and acts as a counterweight, like a magnet has a north pole and a south pole. The "friendly rivalry" for Giants vs Hanshin, soba vs udon, left vs right, 50Hz vs 60Hz is a reality and it should be mentioned — Wikitravel is not saying that Tokyo is good and Osaka is bad! Jpatokal 08:06, 3 March 2007 (EST)
- The opposite of "anti-capital" is "capital", and Tokyo is the capital. Tokyo doesn't need to be described in terms of any other city, because it's big enough to stand completely alone. But why is Osaka more important than, say, Saitama or Sendai? The reason is that it's Japan's second most important city -- the anti-capital. Jpatokal 06:49, 6 March 2007 (EST)
- OK, let's discuss this. If differences are observed, just mention it. There is no need of adding any flavor on top of it. I guess, if someone didn't understand English, somebody else didn't want to try understand one others heart.
- Even if it was true that city like Osaka, as just one example, was as important as Tokyo, what do those references to sports and food have to do with it at all?
- (i) Baseball - I guess there are more Yanks fans than Redsox fans in NY. Same vice versa. People in Nagoya are crazy about the Chunichi Dragons, Hiroshima guys alike when talking about the Carps. So what is the big deal about that?
- (ii) Food - udon is beloved. the soya sauce used in the soup has lighter color. All from tradition, it doesn't prove anything more.
- (iii) Escalators - yes it's a fact, but nothing else. It doesn't make Osaka more important because of it. People from Osaka who haven't ever visited Tokyo won't even know it's the opposite there.
- Last, but not the least, do me a favor putting those edits back related to corrections around history and the 808 Bridge typo. I'm not in the mood to redo it just because the whole edit was reverted through a single click. Thank you in advance. 60dot 08:56, 3 March 2007 (EST)
- I agree with Jpatokal. Although the prefix "anti-" is often used for negative words, the term "anti-capital", as written in this article, does not have a negative meaning in English. We can probably find a different term if necessary, but I can't see how this article could be interpreted as negative toward Osaka. (It's more positive and insightful than Lonely Planet's writing on Osaka, I think.) When I lived there, I was introduced to the Kansai / Kanto dynamic by Osaka people themselves. There is plenty of literature about it as well. One of my favorite books is Junichiro Tanizaki's The Makioka Sisters (aka Sasame-yuki). The author uses a few trips to Tokyo to show why the characters love Osaka so much, and it's very effective. "Flavor" is important in a travel article. Why should a visitor choose to visit Osaka over any other city? Because they think it has a good "flavor". Surely you must admit that the rivalry between the Tigers and the Giants is something special. (The Carp don't have any rivalries that create the same excitement.) Points like that are interesting for visitors. Those points show that Osaka people have energy, passion, and pride in their city. Remember, this article is written for people who are unfamiliar with Osaka.
- Some mentions of Tokyo are unnecessary - for example, when we mention that USJ is the second-biggest theme park, we don't really need to mention that Tokyo Disneyland is the biggest. Things like those could be deleted without weakening the article. Gorilla Jones 10:48, 3 March 2007 (EST)
- Thank you for your second opinion. I am just about thinking to degrade my notes on the Babel stuff on English, but nevertheless:
- Facts like Osaka people being fond of udon or riding escalators on the opposite side than in Tokyo are just facts. They do not represent in any way the energy, passion or pride people have in the city. It is so irritating when someone starts to cast an impression by telling that these are some examples how Osaka people are proud of themselves. Yes these differences
may be interesting for visitors, but do not try to tie those up with the way Osaka people want to be proud. I repeat, udon is just a tradition, so is the light-colored soya sauce, and even the okonomiyaki. If those differences are so important, let's be more specific. So long as food is concerned, the same topic is repeated in so many places like in the top Japan page or
elsewhere, but if it has to be repeated once again, it is more appropriate in the Kansai page than in a geographically much narrowed down individual city pages. Otherwise, it can be repeated there and here. As to to the way how people ride on the escalators, I repeat here again, it is another simple fact; you don't have to stay in Osaka for a year to discover that and it has in no way any relationship to what Osaka is about or how Osaka people are furiously passionate. When it comes to baseball, the most important difference between the Tigers and the Carp in our context is only how long time they have "rivaled" against the once nine-season-in-a-row champion Giants. Yes, I admit it is not completely free of any rivalry passion between the cities of Osaka and Tokyo, but I would rather say it is more tied to such "anti-ism" between the rich-funded Yomiuri group baseball team and all the other five baseball clubs belonging to the Central League. (And that seems to be half over too, with the decline of Giants.) It is not necessarily whether the prefix "anti-" has a negative notion in it or not; it is the way how Osaka has to be introduced to someone unfamiliar to it. It is indeed because we are looking at some potential new-comer to Osaka that I am trying to avoid giving out a prejudiced view here in Wikitravel. You must have heard from many Osakans about how people compare themselves to Tokyo, I have no doubt, nor am I surprised. But here you are listening to another version. I am hoping that by now you are starting to understand why I modified the text into the way it appeared in my infobox draft.
Besides, I am looking for some inarguable evidence that confirms Osaka is "a centrally located hub of commerce and industry for the country as a whole" --- very roughly centrally located in Japan, yes - but what does the latter part mean after all; the merchandized products Osaka (prefecture, in this case) is far smaller than in Tokyo in value, does support Kansai region but hardly outside, and is almost being caught up by Aichi Pref recently. 60dot 12:42, 3 March 2007 (EST)
- I've re-incorporated some of the deletions and dropped a couple of Tokyo references, although I still have to agree with Jpatokal that the regional rivalry infobox did not read well. You keep complaining that certain things are just "facts". Well, I like the information about the 808 Bridges...but it's just a fact. All that about Osaka being the capital 1,400 years ago? That's just a fact, too. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be included - facts are good. There isn't any one "fact" that can tell the whole story of a city. So, to make a travel guide, we put many little facts together and, hopefully, we make a big picture that intrigues a visitor. If you feel that Osaka is compared too often to Tokyo, that's fine. But the solution is not to pretend that it is never compared to Tokyo. You don't care about the so-called rivalry, but other Osaka people do. What you should do is add some content that is a) useful for visitors and b) specific to Osaka. For example, this article makes little or no mention of comedy / manzai or the Osaka dialect. I don't feel qualified to write it, but it would be nice to have something on that subject, and it wouldn't have to mention Tokyo at all.
- And, sorry, I can't agree about baseball - I know Tigers fans and I know Carp fans, I've been to games at Koshien and Hiroshima Stadium, and there is no comparison between the feelings of Tigers fans about the Giants and the feelings of Carp fans about the Giants. To Carp fans, winning is their main rival, not any particular team. Gorilla Jones 21:55, 3 March 2007 (EST)
- Appreciate your efforts on putting back some of the text.
- I would just like to make one point clear so that you do not take me wrong about the capital factsheet; it's simply wrong. The first time I put some little mention in here it was kept as vague as that Osaka was once a capital, without even refferring to exact years. I thought it was just about enough and it really doesn't matter more. Then it was changed to something with years that I can only trace its source to Wikipedia, which was, unfortunately, wrong. I then corrected them here; now reverted. That's where we stand. I personally don't care if the whole thing about it is gone, but I will not redo it myself; at least not after having seen the way it can be removed.
- There is no disagreement here that we are trying to gather some "facts" and topics unique to Osaka in light of pulling larger attention of potential visitors. Obviously I did not do quite well in appealing that the 808 Bridges is one of such, a topic that has much more than its names, history and backgrounds, hidden behind --- I missed much of the "why" part, but this is an example essentially no different manzai, if you wish.
- We can compare different cities any time; all what I am saying is whenever it's done, it has to be done with a clear evidence, and necessity. If Osaka is viewed as an anti-capital by somebody, fine --- but how, and why.
- Baseball: after all, arguing over this is getting pointless - and off our main topic. Do me allow some comments though - I am a Tigers fan myself, and I do know Carp fans too. I cannot read into Carp fans mind because I know one. I confess I have never been to Hiroshima stadium, but yes to Koshien. During my stay in Kanto I've been to stadiums like Jingu (Yakult) and Yokohama, where sometimes we find more Tigers fan than the hometeamers. And of course, winning the game, any game, is nothing but priority. (Giants are too weak these days) In addition, obviously not everybody from Kansai is a Tigers fan, nor is all Tigers fan from the region.
60dot 02:40, 4 March 2007 (EST)
A Second cut
Another version after reflection ---
The revised text addresses and frees the limitation of having to look for a good reason to back up calling Osaka an anti-capital in quantitive material; opens it to any variety of qualitive reasons; and by attempting to urge everyone look for such by your own, thus giving much bigger room eventually, and hopefully allowing many find a place to fit oneself in. 60dot 18:08, 4 March 2007 (EST)
I found this page,
Why is there the same article at Wikitravel ? (about kix, 12:44, 21 February 2007 )
And there is a sentence on this page.
"Article based on Wikitravel article by Wikitravel users Jpatokal. Based on work by Wikitravel user(s) Nils. Article used under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 1.0.) "
Isn't this have any problem in a copyright?
savasa 13:29, 6 March 2007 (EST)
- Nope, we use Copyleft instead. Jpatokal 13:02, 6 March 2007 (EST)
- So,I wish you(or they?) update it too,same as.
- 18.104.22.168 08:40, 7 March 2007 (JST)
1."Distincts" : I don't know the bridge "阿部野橋". By the way , on the other hand there is a bridge "阿倍野橋" near "阿部野橋" station,is not lost. But I don't know a lost bridge of this name.
What is a resource of this article ?
2."Distincts" : I don't understand "Shinsaibashi still retain their crossings.".But there is a pedestrian bridge as other one.
What is a resource of this article ?
3."Do" : Usually,it isn't say "大相撲大阪場所" as sumo tournament in March.There isn't such a regular tournament,too. It is "大相撲春場所 (Sumo Spring Grand Tournament)",because the another association of sumo was in Osaka before over 50 years old,had held tournaments.(There was a exclusive stadium at Senbayashi,of course.)
It shuld be amend.
addition. : "Eat" : I didn't explain "Ikayaki".It usually is a barbeque of squid,but in Osaka,it is something like crepe or thin Okonomiyaki,include fillets of a squid,tasted like Okonomiyaki.Although there were many stands on the premises of temple or a shrine.(for example at a festival (EX. on new year day or summer festival)) in japan,it is often seen "ikayaki" stands. (But it is different among district "Ikayaki".).This type is seld at Hanshin department (Umeda),shops at big railway stations and airports in Osaka.
22.214.171.124 14:00, 8 March 2007 (JST)
where would this go under sleep? --126.96.36.199 09:54, 25 April 2008 (EDT)
Pig and Whistle change
The Pig and Whistle is now closed. It was bought and changed to a Hub. Hub is a British style pub with locations in Namba, Umeda, and now Shinsaibashi.
The Canadian Consulate in Osaka has been closed in 2007, according to the Consul at the Consulate in Nagoya. Maybe somebody can verify this and delete the entry in the listing. Azolotkov 08:56, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
- It is not listed here , so I will delete it. Thanks! ChubbyWimbus 11:58, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
The Osaka Unlimited Pass (¥2000) excludes the use of JR trains. See Q6 at the bottom of this page: http://www.pia-kansai.ne.jp/osp/en/01_guide.php --188.8.131.52 01:54, 23 January 2011 (EST)
Surely Osaka is deserving of huge city status? It's to all extents and purposes the 2nd city of Japan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs)
- "Huge city status" means there's so much content in the article that it's worth splitting up into districts, it's not just based on the population. (Even Dhaka, population 12 million, doesn't use it.) Right now the Osaka article doesn't seem long enough to make further division worthwhile – especially the Buy and Eat sections, which are very short indeed. If we ever add enough listings that the article becomes difficult to read, then it'll be time to reconsider. — D. Guillaime 15:00, 20 September 2011 (EDT)
- I would agree though that, knowing the city somewhat, the information in the article does need to be enhanced and expanded to that point. It's a shame we don't have a better article for this awesome city.texugo 22:20, 20 September 2011 (EDT)
- Incidentally, the Japanese version has been districted (indeed, perhaps over-districted) and has a ton more listings. Going to append a translate tag. texugo 22:59, 20 September 2011 (EDT)
Looks like some districts have been created without being linked to in the main article:
Eco84 14:09, 28 November 2011 (EST)
- I think we need more articles about Osaka.
- So, I made a map of Osaka. Please give me a little more time and your advice
- kambayashi 21:48, 28 November 2011 (EST)
- Nice looking map. My comment: In tourism circles at least, Osaka is known as a city with two centers, so if we are going to districtify (and I think we should), I think the Central district should be divided in two: one centering around the Umeda area, and one centering around the Namba/Shinsaibashi area. Each area has a unique flavor and both areas are packed full of bars, restaurants, lodging, and attractions, so I think it would be weird to combine them. texugo 23:04, 28 November 2011 (EST)
- Thank you for your advice.I made a revised map.kambayashi 06:24, 2 December 2011 (EST)
- The new map divisions look perfectly reasonable to me, but it seems a little odd to name them Kita and North, Minami and South. Can we call Kita "North Central" and Minami "South Central"?texugo 01:36, 3 December 2011 (EST)