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(Lake Merritt?)
 
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Having driven on the 580 over the actual repair several times in the last few days, I will try to remove the warning about the blown out road. xntj
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"THERE!" Okay, Mark.  Enough of my complaining you suggest? Good advice.  Revise the article to reflect broader realities about Oakland? Another good bit of advice.  So, I did.  I added a rather prolix description as to the contrasts and contradictions of the city, which really doesn't give a locale by locale travelogue, but rather the contexts by which one can appreciate such places within the city. The next step requires adding in addresses, phone numbers, and Web sites of these following Oakland institutions and or attractions:
 
"THERE!" Okay, Mark.  Enough of my complaining you suggest? Good advice.  Revise the article to reflect broader realities about Oakland? Another good bit of advice.  So, I did.  I added a rather prolix description as to the contrasts and contradictions of the city, which really doesn't give a locale by locale travelogue, but rather the contexts by which one can appreciate such places within the city. The next step requires adding in addresses, phone numbers, and Web sites of these following Oakland institutions and or attractions:
  
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I had a hard time describing Oakland's African-American culture. I don't like making the point that high black population -> high crime, but the plain fact is that there's a lot of poverty in Oakland, that race has something to do with that, and that there's consequent crime. I don't think it would be fair to travelers to gloss over this. I'd appreciate if someone could clean up my prose, though. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 15:14, 29 Nov 2003 (PST)
 
I had a hard time describing Oakland's African-American culture. I don't like making the point that high black population -> high crime, but the plain fact is that there's a lot of poverty in Oakland, that race has something to do with that, and that there's consequent crime. I don't think it would be fair to travelers to gloss over this. I'd appreciate if someone could clean up my prose, though. -- [[User:Evan|Evan]] 15:14, 29 Nov 2003 (PST)
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== TODO ==
 
== TODO ==
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* Add "The Crucible"
 
* Add "The Crucible"
 
* Add the ferry service to the "Get In" section.
 
* Add the ferry service to the "Get In" section.
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:Standard formatting has been implemented, as well as some listing clean up, so I've deleted the style warnings. There is a TC Transit fee that currently states "$0," so if anyone knows the fee, pls add. Also, the article is in dire need of a nice intro pic.[[User:Zepppep|Zepppep]] 14:03, 4 April 2011 (EDT)
  
 
== Author, were you a crime victim in Oakland? ==
 
== Author, were you a crime victim in Oakland? ==
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:Cool!  Thanks for doing the re-write.   
 
:Cool!  Thanks for doing the re-write.   
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:Now... what I'd really like to see is some further coverage of some of the cool bars in Oakland as well as the neighborhoods.  Eventually I'd like to see this article take the [[Wikitravel:Big city]] form.  GC, would you like to take it on? -- [[User:Mark|Mark]] 14:58, 5 Dec 2005 (EST)
 
:Now... what I'd really like to see is some further coverage of some of the cool bars in Oakland as well as the neighborhoods.  Eventually I'd like to see this article take the [[Wikitravel:Big city]] form.  GC, would you like to take it on? -- [[User:Mark|Mark]] 14:58, 5 Dec 2005 (EST)
 
 
== Will do ==
 
== Will do ==
  
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GC
 
GC
 
 
  
 
== The "Understand" section ==
 
== The "Understand" section ==
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[[User:Bloody rox|Bloody rox]] 17:37, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
 
[[User:Bloody rox|Bloody rox]] 17:37, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
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:[[Wikitravel:plunge forward|Plunge forward!]]  I agree that this section is way too involved, and if you can summarize the information that's relevant for the typical traveler to better understand Oakland, that'd be great. - [[User:TVerBeek|Todd VerBeek]] 18:11, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
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== Too Much!! ==
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The article is far far far to wordy - every large city is a "complex city of striking contrasts", infact many tourist boards use this as a marketting term (which is where I think this may have originated from) - this site is meant to enable travellers to get quick info and gain useful knowledge from entries, not encyclopedic knowledge!
 +
 +
This article would be great in another site, but is way to long for wikitravel - it's just not fit-for-purpose
 +
 +
I have therefore made the bold step in chopping out most of the understand text - instead I suggest someone with more knowledge adds briefly to the neighbourhoods listings and expands here accordingly. Apologies - but compare this to other major cities and you will find it is far too long.
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I also felt adding that it is recognised officially as the most ethnically diverse cities is far more informative using census data (pillaged from wikipedia!) - I certainly found it interesting that 150 languages are spoken and I felt that reflecting this in listing some if the annual events would empasise this.
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Another suggestion would be perhaps a brief history section?
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Also I suggest adding a section on the various annual events - as a visitor this information would interest me most, and certainly act as a draw.
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Huge apologies again for any offense caused - I think it needed doing though
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==Apparent contradiction==
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I have a small complaint:  The Stay Safe section emphasizes that Flats should be avoided "at all times," yet the Fruitvale district is raved about earlier in the article.  I don't think I have to emphasize to anyone that Fruitvale is smack dab in the middle of the flatlands, and is relatively safe during the day.  I'm a small white teenager who lives in the area and has never had any problems.  I'm not denying that there aren't any, but painting everywhere in the flats as some kind of No-Go zone is just ig'nant. {{unsigned|71.135.106.68}}
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:Please [[pf|plunge forward]] and improve the article!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 12:11, 21 February 2010 (EST)
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==Pictures==
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Can we add more pictures to this article as this being a large city yet it has very few pictures  {{unsigned|Ralphzztop}}
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:Please [[pf|plunge forward]]!  --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]]</sup></small> 19:00, 22 September 2010 (EDT)
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== Lake Merritt? ==
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How can a travel article about Oakland completely neglect one of the city's biggest attractions? (except as a reference for locating a few other places)[[User:173.161.21.11|173.161.21.11]] 06:06, 2 September 2011 (EDT)
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:Pleae go ahead and write about it.--[[User:Burmesedays|burmesedays]] 10:47, 2 September 2011 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 14:51, 2 September 2011

Having driven on the 580 over the actual repair several times in the last few days, I will try to remove the warning about the blown out road. xntj


"THERE!" Okay, Mark. Enough of my complaining you suggest? Good advice. Revise the article to reflect broader realities about Oakland? Another good bit of advice. So, I did. I added a rather prolix description as to the contrasts and contradictions of the city, which really doesn't give a locale by locale travelogue, but rather the contexts by which one can appreciate such places within the city. The next step requires adding in addresses, phone numbers, and Web sites of these following Oakland institutions and or attractions:

Hillside areas (Skyline, Montclair, etc.): Chabot Space and Science Center (largest observatory opened to the public); Joaquin Miller Park; Westminster Park; Shepard Canyon Park, Chabot Parklands, Oakland Zoo; Montclair Village restaurants of note: Italian Colors and Canvas

Lake Merritt area: Grand lake-grand avenue shopping district restaurants; Mezze's, Spettro

Piedmont Avenue (Restaurant Row): Bay Wolf (foodie fave and venerated contemporary of Berkeley's Chez Panisse); JoJo's (intimate bistro wins rave reviews)

Downtown/Old Oakland: Washington Inn, Verbana's, The Gingerbread House

Rockridge: Oliveto's, A Côté, Le Citron, Grasshopper

Jack London Sq/Loft district: Soizic; Yoshi's (premier Jazz club in the Bay Area, as well)

Oakland Symphony, Oakland Ballet; African-American Museum; Franklin Roosevelt yacht.

Hmm...there's a lot "There"...

A. Mason



I, too, was disappointed by the disparging, condescending, and not a little bit racist undercurrents of the article about Oakland. The writer claims, "I don't like making the point that high black population = high crime," but then goes on to describe a city that is utterly inferior to San Francisco in charm and economically depressed in contrast to San Jose. And, oh, by the way, Oakland has a large Black population. Even the commentary concerning Oakland's affluent areas referred to the beautiful neighborhoods of upper Rockridge and Montclair as but a "tinderbox" ---which begs the question: is San Francisco then but a "faultline?" I found that racial biases tainted the article. I do not charge that the author is openly or consciously racist, by any means, but the glaring condescension, selectivity of references regarding the African-American community, and his/her appallingly biased comparisons of Oakland with San Francisco and San Jose indicate clear, if unacknowledged leanings on the part of the author, of which I believe at least some are rooted in some racially constructed concepts common in American society.

Let me present the evidence: No doubt Oakland has real problems, but the city's Black population is not all marginalized and poor (or party to the city's "staggering" murder rate), not by any means. For example, Wiki Travel readers would have appreciated learning about the late Robert Maynard, the African-American publisher and owner of the Oakland Tribune. During the 1980s and 1990s before his death to cancer, Maynard took a moribound journal and made it a pulitzer-prize winning newspaper, despite its financial struggles. The Oakland Tribune exists to this day as the major journal of record for the entire East Bay. And what of former Yale professor of literature and playright Ismeel Reed? The article's author mentions not a word. The actual case is that Oakland's African-American community has given much more to American culture than just "West Coast Rappers." Of this, the author says nothing.

Might I suggest the original author read very carefully "American Babylon: Race and the Stuggle for Post-War Oakland," or "Suburban Warriors: Origins of the New American Right," both of which give a detailed, social, economic, and historical analysis as to the origins of Oakland's urban problems (and for that matter, "booming" San Jose's "success"). Might this reader also suggest that the author also spend time in the Oakland retail neighborhoods of Piedmont Avenue, Rockridge, and Montclair Village. I suggest the original author visit such noted Oakland restaurants as the Bay Wolf, JoJo's, Le Citron, A Côté,and Canvas, all of which more than hold their own against their San Francisco and Berkeley counterparts; I propose said author take a walk through the residential neighborhoods of Rockridge, upper Rockridge, Montclair, upper Montclair, Oakmore, Redwood Heights, Skyline, Ridgemont, Crocker Highlands, and Haddon Hill. These areas boast gracious old homes, new and stunningly eccentric architectural experiments, many of which reach well over the million-dollar price tag. But what would capture the discerning observer's eye is that these affluent neighborhoods have a more ethnically diverse group of residents than one will find in these neighborhoods' counterparts in Piedmont or "charming" San Francisco and "booming" San Jose, for that matter. One can find considerable charm in the up and coming Laurel, Temescal, and Dimond, as well.

To sum up the affluent and relatively diverse hillside neighborhoods of Oakland as merely an "affluent tinderbox" not only denies the graciousness and diversity of these areas, but also reveals the author's clear bias. Again, I dont see him or her referring to San Francisco's affluent areas as "the affluent faultline," or San Jose's as "affluent souless sprawl." Language has power, but it not only conveys impressions of a place, people, and event, it also invariably reveals something of the author as well.

What is extraordinary to this reader is that Oakland, for all of its real problems, including high crime and poverty, has undergone renewal, population growth, and skyrocketing housing prices, all of which indicate a real Renaissance, a reversal of the "White flight" of the 1950s through the 1970s. The city boasts a rising rate of interracial marriage as well, far ahead of the rest of the nation. That is Oakland's story as well as its "real" urban problems. By contrast, I would note forcefully that San Francisco relegates a large segment of its poor African-American community to the hinterland of Hunter's Point, and San Jose's and Silicon Valley's gleaming "high-tech campuses" mean little to the area's disaffected and disenfranchised Hispanic communities. "Do you know the way to San Jose," indeed. San Francisco and San Jose certainly have their share of "real" problems, but their larger dominant populations can literally afford either to isolate its "problem," on the one hand to the hinterland as San Francisco does, or ignore it altogether, as does San Jose. One suspects that Oakland, that proverbial "Other" of Bay Area cities, serves a useful purpose; it is the place upon which surrounding populations of supposedly "progressive" San Francisco (and Berkeley, for that matter) and "high-tech" San Jose can project their own fears, perceptions, and prejudices, without having to address any of their own issues––and similar problems.

Happily, the offending article has been edited, giving it more nuance and a great deal more accuracy. And I am glad that the edited article addresses the racial component, not only in regards to media and popular perceptions, but in the very article in question. Oakland deserves a more nuanced and factual account. So do Wiki travelers.

For the record, I'm "White," and I live in Manhattan, New York. However, I have lived and worked in both San Francisco and Oakland, California. The updated article about Oakland, California, reflects a more honest appraisal of the city, and certainly seems closer to the Oakland that I know, respect, and truth be told, have grown to love.

A.Mason

Hi A. I'm glad you've taken an interest in the Oakland article. Please Plunge forward and fix it. -- Mark 11:22, 31 Jan 2005 (EST)

I was taken aback by the extremely disparaging tone of this article. It needs some extensive rewriting, which I'll hopefully have time to contribute to in the near future. Aezram 13:55, 21 Jan 2005 (EST)

I had a hard time describing Oakland's African-American culture. I don't like making the point that high black population -> high crime, but the plain fact is that there's a lot of poverty in Oakland, that race has something to do with that, and that there's consequent crime. I don't think it would be fair to travelers to gloss over this. I'd appreciate if someone could clean up my prose, though. -- Evan 15:14, 29 Nov 2003 (PST)


TODO[edit]

  • Add The Mormon Temple in the "to see" section.
  • Add Lake Merrit and the bird sanctuary here
  • Add "The Crucible"
  • Add the ferry service to the "Get In" section.
Standard formatting has been implemented, as well as some listing clean up, so I've deleted the style warnings. There is a TC Transit fee that currently states "$0," so if anyone knows the fee, pls add. Also, the article is in dire need of a nice intro pic.Zepppep 14:03, 4 April 2011 (EDT)

Author, were you a crime victim in Oakland?[edit]

While most of the articles in Wiki travel are amusing and informative, this one seems to accentuate the downsides of Oakland. Other far more crime-ridden cities are written about glowingly with crime as a mere afterthought. Check various crime rankings such as by Morgan Quitno and you will see that Oakland is not among the top 20 crime-ridden cities nationwide whereas other California cities are. Articles about problem-plagued cities such as Baltimore do not have their urban ills as the dominant theme.

You do mention the bright spots of Oakland, albeit in apologetic fashion. Why not reduce the San Francisco biased commentary? Otherwise, you should warn readers about the skyrocketing murders in San Francisco (90 and counting this year). Perhaps, the opening line on San Jose should read "Despite the stagnant local economy and high unemployment rate since the tech bust, ..."

You have achieved a good mix of fact and commentary in the vast majority of travel articles. Oakland is an unfortunate exception. Many people such as myself have lived in both San Francisco and Oakland, but choose to live in Oakland because of the superior weather, fantastic views and wonderful neighborhoods. I'm sure you have noticed that since 2001, real estate appreciation in Oakland has far outstripped that of San Francisco and San Jose.

Emphasize the attributes of Oakland in unapologetic fashion with crime discussed in the body of the article as done for every other city. If you were the victim of crime in Oakland, you have my sympathies. Please don't express this in the tone of your article.

Regards,

GC

If you dislike the way something is written, please plunge forward and edit it. Articles on this site are always a work-in-progress, and we very much want those who have additional information or differing points of view to add them. -- Ryan 15:29, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)
I'll second that. I guess I was a bit terse with the earlier invitation to plunge forward, but believe me: I'm being sincere. I feel I just don't know nearly enough about Oakland to contribute even to the revision of the article. Please any of you who have problems with it, feel free to do a re-write. Thanks for your time. -- Mark 16:12, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)

Revisions made[edit]

Mark and Ryan,

Thanks for your openness. I have given the article a more upbeat tone and updated information throughout. My hope is that on summer days when fog has blanketed the otherwise lovely streets of San Francisco with an arctic chill, visitors may find opportunity to seek the warm and sunny confines of Oakland (I know I do) ...

GC

Cool! Thanks for doing the re-write.


Now... what I'd really like to see is some further coverage of some of the cool bars in Oakland as well as the neighborhoods. Eventually I'd like to see this article take the Wikitravel:Big city form. GC, would you like to take it on? -- Mark 14:58, 5 Dec 2005 (EST)

Will do[edit]

Mark,

I'd be happy to update those areas and convert to the Big City form when needed.

GC

The "Understand" section[edit]

...needs to be cleaned up! The information ought to be organized and/or summarized. In-depth info of Oakland's history would be better placed in Oakland's Wikipedia article, which could be linked from this site if readers would like more information.

Should I try to begin this task?

Bloody rox 17:37, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Plunge forward! I agree that this section is way too involved, and if you can summarize the information that's relevant for the typical traveler to better understand Oakland, that'd be great. - Todd VerBeek 18:11, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Too Much!![edit]

The article is far far far to wordy - every large city is a "complex city of striking contrasts", infact many tourist boards use this as a marketting term (which is where I think this may have originated from) - this site is meant to enable travellers to get quick info and gain useful knowledge from entries, not encyclopedic knowledge!

This article would be great in another site, but is way to long for wikitravel - it's just not fit-for-purpose

I have therefore made the bold step in chopping out most of the understand text - instead I suggest someone with more knowledge adds briefly to the neighbourhoods listings and expands here accordingly. Apologies - but compare this to other major cities and you will find it is far too long.

I also felt adding that it is recognised officially as the most ethnically diverse cities is far more informative using census data (pillaged from wikipedia!) - I certainly found it interesting that 150 languages are spoken and I felt that reflecting this in listing some if the annual events would empasise this.

Another suggestion would be perhaps a brief history section?

Also I suggest adding a section on the various annual events - as a visitor this information would interest me most, and certainly act as a draw.

Huge apologies again for any offense caused - I think it needed doing though

Apparent contradiction[edit]

I have a small complaint: The Stay Safe section emphasizes that Flats should be avoided "at all times," yet the Fruitvale district is raved about earlier in the article. I don't think I have to emphasize to anyone that Fruitvale is smack dab in the middle of the flatlands, and is relatively safe during the day. I'm a small white teenager who lives in the area and has never had any problems. I'm not denying that there aren't any, but painting everywhere in the flats as some kind of No-Go zone is just ig'nant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.135.106.68 (talkcontribs)

Please plunge forward and improve the article! --Peter Talk 12:11, 21 February 2010 (EST)


Pictures[edit]

Can we add more pictures to this article as this being a large city yet it has very few pictures —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ralphzztop (talkcontribs)

Please plunge forward! --Peter Talk 19:00, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

Lake Merritt?[edit]

How can a travel article about Oakland completely neglect one of the city's biggest attractions? (except as a reference for locating a few other places)173.161.21.11 06:06, 2 September 2011 (EDT)

Pleae go ahead and write about it.--burmesedays 10:47, 2 September 2011 (EDT)

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