I'm not totally set on the cities currently listed. Perhaps swap Rochester for Albany? Neither are really great travel destinations though. There are, however, some more good travel destinations that are very small cities (like Princeton). If anyone ever takes an interest in changing the 9 listed cities, I'll be watching this page and will help out. --PeterTalk 02:05, 24 August 2007 (EDT)
Whoops, there are only 8 cities here—room for one more. I kind of lean Princeton, but perhaps that's unfair to the big Jersey cities. If we pick one of them, which has the most important tourist attractions? We could also list Hoboken. --PeterTalk 01:25, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
Hmm, surprised I missed that too. We don't have to have nine cities, of course, especially if there's no clear choice for the ninth one. For reference, here are the available candidates from the state articles:
Niagara Falls, Ithaca, Syracuse, Cooperstown, Saratoga Springs, Albany
Harrisburg, Allentown, Gettysburg, Hershey, Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, State College, Williamsport
Trenton, Atlantic City, Camden, Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, New Brunswick, Paterson, Princeton
Bethesda, College Park, Cumberland, Frederick, Hagerstown, Ocean City, Solomons Island
Dover, Wilmington, Newark, Bridgeville, Dewey Beach, New Castle, Rehoboth Beach, Middletown, Bethany Beach, Fenwick Island
Any thoughts? Niagara Falls seems like a decent choice, as the falls themselves are one of the region's major tourist destinations -- but it's really close to Buffalo. There are a lot of choices that are comparable to each other, but none that stand out like the current eight do. Maybe we should just stick with eight. LtPowers 18:55, 11 September 2008 (EDT)
User:PAWikiseems to likeAllentown, but I'd prefer to see some discussion here. Why Allentown and not, for instance, Scranton/Wilkes-Barre? The former is fairly close to Philadelphia, to the point of being in the same metro area if I recall correctly, and SWB also has a AAA baseball team (as does Syracuse, for that matter). I'm not saying Allentown is a bad choice, but I think we should discuss it. LtPowers 15:14, 26 December 2008 (EST)
Allentown is the third most populated city in Pennsylvania, after Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, and one of the fastest growing. In economic, entertainment, social fields, it is the third or (if you include Harrisburg for the simple fact that it is the capital--but has little other notoriety) fourth most important city in the state. I also concur with the inclusion of Atlantic City, for the reasons noted below and the fact that it is among the most famed beach resorts in the region. PAWiki 15:39, 27 December 2008 (EST)
Atlantic City sounds like the best choice to me. It's a large enough sized city and a major tourist destination in New Jersey, for which we currently have no cities listed. I hadn't thought of it when I drafted the initial list, otherwise I think I would have included it. --PeterTalk 16:09, 26 December 2008 (EST)
I've thought about it over the past week and I think Atlantic City is probably the best choice. There's a lot to like about Allentown, but I don't see it being a major destination for travelers just yet. Remember, the purpose of the "Cities" section is to provide shortcuts to cities the traveler is already thinking about without making them go through the whole hierarchy; I think Atlantic City definitely fills that bill (and, with that reasoning, perhaps we ought also to bold "Niagara Falls" in the description of Buffalo, to catch said traveler's eye). LtPowers 15:37, 1 January 2009 (EST)
Atlantic City certainly draws more tourists than Allentown. I'd also suspect Allentown draws more than Rochester, which is on the list. PAWiki 15:14, 2 January 2009 (EST)
My hunch is Rochester gets more tourism from its festivals, but especially from university visits. We seem to have a consensus at least to include Atlantic City, but we can still discuss the inclusion of Allentown at the removal of another city. --PeterTalk 15:29, 2 January 2009 (EST)
Well, Rochester serves as a jumping-off point for the entire Finger Lakes region. It also has its own attractions, which are, admittedly, varied rather than dominated by one big thing, but that's not really a bad thing. But yes, the festival circuit is certainly a big draw. =) LtPowers 21:05, 2 January 2009 (EST)
Discussion seems to have stalled -- I'd like to go ahead and add Atlantic City and the numerous Other Destinations we now have to the map. Any objections? LtPowers 10:11, 15 February 2009 (EST)
Sounds good to me! --PeterTalk 20:42, 16 February 2009 (EST)
Okay, new map is up. I didn't touch the Russian and Spanish layers on the SVG, though. LtPowers 20:15, 20 February 2009 (EST)
I just can't believe how much Wilmington, DE is left out on this article.
Its GDP, downtown, and skyline are much larger than Allentown, Trenton, Lancaster, etc yet it is not listed on the cities list. It's history of supplying the necessary gunpowder to win 1812, DuPont, the Credit Card and banking hub, the incorporation town, nothing mentioned. One of the largest ports in the United States? One of the busiest Amtrak stations? The border city for the underground railroad?
How exactly can you leave this city out? Really? It's RIGHT THERE on 95. Right there on Amtrak. It has 40 large office buildings that smack you in the face traveling south from Philadelphia. You can't drive from NYC to Washington without seeing it.
It's the quintessential Mid-Atlantic City. AAA Mid-Atlantic hq is in that city. It meets every single definiton - it's a seaport - one of the largest ports on the east coast, and is economically more significant than your PA cities other than Phila (Pittsburgh isn't Mid-Atlantic) and Jersey cities except for Newark and Atlantic city.
So sad how much this article ignores Wilmington - you can't get any more mid-atlantic.
Allentown, Trenton, and Lancaster aren't on the list either. We have to pick nine cities; which one would you remove to make room for Wilmington? (And Pittsburgh is not an option; it may not be on the Atlantic, but Pennsylvania is a Mid-Atlantic state.) LtPowers 20:51, 14 January 2012 (EST)
Despite growing up not too far away, I can't say I know much about Wilmington. Could I perhaps convince its advocate here to spruce up the Wilmington (Delaware) article? With the understand section actually empty save for a pointer to the visitor center, it's not making a good case for why someone should visit! --PeterTalk 13:44, 8 July 2012 (EDT)
What is the parenthetical US of A here disambiguating? I'm not aware of any other Mid-Atlantics in the world and it's annoying to type. Would anyone object to moving this page to Mid-Atlantic? --PeterTalk 16:08, 20 February 2008 (EST)
Always thought this was weird, especially since Mid-Atlantic redirects here. Would support de-disambiguation. OldPine 16:27, 20 February 2008 (EST)
De-disambiguated. --PeterTalk 13:57, 23 February 2008 (EST)
Per Wikitravel:Tone, we encourage lively writing, and discourage people from parsing words. But more to the point, what the heck is the logical difference between "arguably the world's greatest city" and "one of the world's greatest cities?" How could one be pretentious and the other not when they are both different expressions of the exact same argument? Any "one of the world's greatest cities" could be "arguably the greatest." The only difference I see is that the latter is more weakly stated, and I don't like seeing articles watered down. --PeterTalk 20:46, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
Conceptually, I would say there are numerous cities on the list of the world's greatest, but only a small handful that could reasonably be considered the greatest -- and none has as solid an argument as NYC. IMO. LtPowers 22:34, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
They clearly have very different meanings. ‘One of the world’s greatest cities’ suggests that there are other cities as great as NYC (like I previously stated on the edit page, e.g London, Paris), while ‘arguably the world’s greatest city’ suggests that NYC is better (greater) than every other city of the world. Please don’t think I'm criticizing NYC, I just feel strongly that there are a small number of other cities in the world that could be considered among the greatest. —The preceding comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) .
Yes, that's true -- but the wording "arguably the world's greatest city" makes clear that many people consider it to be the tops -- a distinction limited to only a handful of cities around the world. "One of the world's greatest cities", on the other hand, puts it on equal footing with scores of others that are great, even if no one really considers them "the greatest". I guess I what I'm saying is that the more superlative wording is necessary to get across the true scope and prominence of the city in relation to other "great" cities (without disparaging the few other claimants to "greatest"). LtPowers 16:10, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
I'd disagree, "arguably the world's greatest" means that one can make that argument (and if you've ever spent a minute speaking with a New Yorker, you know that people do exactly that). In any rate, please do not continue edit warring—in case of disagreement, it's Wikitravel policy to default to the status quo until people come to an agreement on the talk page. --PeterTalk 01:04, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
I don't think we disagree; what you said matches my feelings. And I only reverted once. LtPowers 08:33, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Ah, sorry, I meant I disagreed with the previous comment ;) --PeterTalk 22:32, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Okay, I'm gonna let this go now as there’s no point in an edit war. I do agree with what you are saying even though I don’t agree with the wording used in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs)
Regarding the intro: geographically, isn't it more accurate to say the region is mostly rural-suburban? Certainly the majority of the two largest states would be considered "rural", or at minimum outside the megalopolis. I won't deny BosWash dominates the area culturally, financially, and demographically, but certainly not geographically! LtPowers 11:01, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
Please have at it, but it's probably best to emphasize that from a travel perspective, it's all about the cities. --PeterTalk 11:12, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
Well that's true anywhere, isn't it? LtPowers 11:22, 9 September 2008 (EDT)
I'm from the Mid-Atlantic and in my travels, I've driven on most of I-95. While I don't disagree with the comments about rude & aggressive driving (something we take pride in), I don't know where anyone got the idea that I-95 "often encompass[es] a whopping 20 lanes". Maybe they're thinking of Southern California, but the widest I remember is eight or ten total lanes tops. Any ideas on how to fix this? I don't want to just cut it out entirely... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aure1ius9 (talk • contribs)
The "often" part is definitely an exaggeration, but the 20 lanes isn't much of one. I quickly checked the Garden State Pkwy just west of Manhattan, and I count 18 lanes at its widest stretch (at least I think there isn't any wider stretch) between Newark and Jersey City. I've revised the section accordingly. --PeterTalk 15:26, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
I just realized this article has no photos! I slapped a nice one of Assateague at the top, but we need more than that, and I'm not certain that an OtBP destination like Assateague (beautiful though it is) really belongs at the top.
I don't have a lot of suggestions, I'm afraid. I took a glance through Commons' featured pictures, but the U.S. selection is heavily weighted to the west. There's only one FP of Niagara Falls, for instance, and it's not even that good: Wikipedia:Commons:File:Niagarablue.jpg. To me, as highlighted in the introduction, the Mid-Atlantic is defined equally by its large cities and skyscrapers as by its areas of natural beauty. I don't know which aspect would make for a better lead picture, although we really can't ignore the impact of the NYC-Philly-Washington metropolis on the area. Something like Wikipedia:Commons:File:Philadelphia skyline August 2007.jpg would show what is essentially a typical Mid-Atlantic cityscape with skyscrapers and a river in close proximity. Just some thoughts. LtPowers 10:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
This makes sense to me as well. --PeterTalk 00:16, 20 September 2011 (EDT)
New York State is never considered part of the Mid-Atlantic region, which would make no sense geographically, but always part of the Northeast. I see that somewhere along the line, people decided to arbitrarily lump New York into the Mid-Atlantic region because it's not part of New England. That's a mistake. We need to change our regional designations to match the ones in common use that are geographically much more logical. I would make the edit, but I think it's better to search for a consensus first. I'll say right away, though: If you think New York is a Mid-Atlantic state, with due respect, you're wrong. Ikan Kekek 03:22, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds? Speaking as a born-and-bred New Yorker, the state has, in my experience, always been part of the Mid-Atlantic, which is a subregion of the Northeast (with some overlap with the South). That's how I learned it growing up, but I'll be sure to tell my fourth-grade teacher she was "wrong" according to some random guy on the Internet. For Wikitravel purposes, grouping these five states works quite well, and there's no better name available, is there? LtPowers 13:42, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
I've also always heard of New York described as a Mid-Atlantic state. Wikipedia includes New York in the Mid-Atlantic region, and the Middle Atlantic athletic Conferences, which dates back to 1912, includes New York schools. I suspect there are other examples, so I would unfortunately have to say that Ikan's statement that "If you think New York is a Mid-Atlantic state, with due respect, you're wrong" may be a bit strong. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:29, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
I wouldn't pay much attention to the names of athletic conferences, but that aside, the better name is Northeast (which would encompass New England and New York), and I'm quite surprised to hear the Mid-Atlantic region being described as a "subregion of the Northeast." That would mean that states like Maryland and Delaware are called Northeastern states sometimes, and while that makes some geographic sense by analogy with calling the coastal Southern states the Southeast, I at least have not heard this done by people who live in those states. Anyway, it seems like I may have been a bit too sure of myself. I won't change my mind, but I will give up and try to remember that the consensus here and on Wikipedia is that New York, which borders Canada, is actually a Mid-Atlantic state. Sorry for causing offense. Ikan Kekek 21:45, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
I'm honestly quite surprised at your conceptions of where the Northeast begins and ends. The US Census Bureau, for instance, includes PA and NJ in addition to NY and New England. Commons has an 1883 map that shows the Middle Atlantic states extending from New York to Virginia, and the official U.S. tourism site defines Mid-Atlantic as NY, NJ, and PA. It's a longstanding definition that wasn't just invented by Wikipedia. =) All "Mid-Atlantic" means is that it's the coastal states that lie between New England and The South. LtPowers 07:41, 17 October 2011 (EDT)
Perceptions of what constitutes Mid-Atlantic vary depending on your location, I think. In Maryland, we are brought up to understand that the Mid-Atlantic is VA-DC-MD-DE. You probably wouldn't find locals in D.C., and rather few in Maryland, who consider themselves in the northeast. For our purposes, in any rate, I think the current division is satisfactory. --PeterTalk 12:04, 17 October 2011 (EDT)
True that it does vary, though I've never heard of the Mid-Atlantic being considered a region separate from the Northeast. Periodically, I consider whether it would be a good idea to add West Virginia and Virginia to this region. Northern VA has much in common with Maryland, and West Virginia has much in common with southwest Pennsylvania; as well, The South as we've defined it has a large number of states that could stand to be pared down. LtPowers 18:55, 17 October 2011 (EDT)