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(Why were the Tours in the Do section wiped clean on October 1?)
(Why were the Tours in the Do section wiped clean on October 1?)
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I've removed the "Tour" section from this article entirely - it's not clear that any of the listed operators met the criteria outlined in [[Tour]], most of the listed tours were for sights outside of Marrakech, and the section was becoming a magnet for spammy edits. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] • ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) • 12:06, 5 September 2010 (EDT)
 
I've removed the "Tour" section from this article entirely - it's not clear that any of the listed operators met the criteria outlined in [[Tour]], most of the listed tours were for sights outside of Marrakech, and the section was becoming a magnet for spammy edits. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] • ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) • 12:06, 5 September 2010 (EDT)
 +
 +
: I disagree with you here, though I do agree that like hotel, restaurant, and attraction listings, these tour listings can attract spam. I think deleting the entire section, however, is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water -- to use a cliché. I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Marrakech (I lived just outside the city for three years), but it is a normal part of a tourist visit to Marrakech to take day trips or even an overnight trip while still basically "based" in Marrakech -- especially out to the desert or the Atlas mountains. After looking over the [[Wikitravel:Article_templates/Sections#Get_out|Article Template]] section concerning "Get Out," I think that these "day-trip" tours might better be placed there. You are right to say that they are not properly in Marrakech, but I think removing them completely ignores how so many tourists spend a week in Marrakech -- splitting time between the city and one or two day excursions around it, all while based in Marrakech. As a second point, I think we need to have some type of better defined criteria for tour listings than what [[Wikitravel:Activity_listings#Tour_listings|currently exists]]. You mentioned that it wasn't clear to you that the former listings met the criteria, but I can assure you that at least some of them did (see my [[Talk:Marrakech#Deleted_Tour_Listings|post]] below). I agree that perhaps every tour doesn't meet the grade, but I don't think we are very helpful to travellers if we have ''no'' listings whatsoever for any day trips into the desert or Atlas mountains -- this is Marrakech after all! Perhaps we could set up some criteria that make it easier to tell the good from the bad: 1) can the activity be completed in a day? (or two?) 2) does it start and end in Marrakech, or at least provide transport that picks you up and drops you off in Marrakech? 3) is the activity one that is normally "based" out of Marrakech? 4) finally...and perhaps most importantly...is there a long-time Wikitravel contributor (not just an owner) who has experienced it, has pictures of it, can vouch for it, and can vouch that it constitutes a "value-added" activity that a normal traveller couldn't do on his/her own? I think these discussion pages are too under-utilized, and perhaps we need to have a discussion when there is move to add (or remove) a listing (or set of listings) so that we maintain the community aspect of the wiki. On that note, I think [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] makes a fair point about the listings not being part of Marrakech proper, but according to the [[Wikitravel:Article_templates/Sections#Get_out|Article Template]] they rightly belong in the "Get out" section. I'm going to restore the previous listings before the latest spam to that section and perhaps moving forward we can have a discussion about particular listings when someone wants to add/delete. [[User:Spmenic|Spmenic]] 15:04, 5 September 2010 (EDT)
  
 
== Deleted Tour Listings ==
 
== Deleted Tour Listings ==
 
I'm ''still'' not sure (see entry directly above) of the criteria for deleting a tour listing that very clearly adds a value-added activity according to the relevant [[Wikitravel:Activity_listings#Tour_listings|policy]]. It isn't a tout because ''I'' am the one who added it years ago after living in Morocco for three years as a Peace Corps volunteer and now living back in the U.S. as a high school teacher. I think it is a particularly valuable addition because it actually lets travelers encounter Moroccan culture firsthand -- something Peace Corps volunteers get to do when living in a country but the average traveler has little luck doing. I'll be honest, balloon rides and rafting are great, but they're not necessarily distinctive to Morocco or Moroccan culture -- indeed, the average Moroccan has never been ballooning or white water rafting! So I'm going to replace the listing and I'm happy to have a discussion about it. --[[User:Spmenic|Spmenic]] 14:47, 25 June 2010 (EDT) 14:46, 25 June 2010 (EDT)
 
I'm ''still'' not sure (see entry directly above) of the criteria for deleting a tour listing that very clearly adds a value-added activity according to the relevant [[Wikitravel:Activity_listings#Tour_listings|policy]]. It isn't a tout because ''I'' am the one who added it years ago after living in Morocco for three years as a Peace Corps volunteer and now living back in the U.S. as a high school teacher. I think it is a particularly valuable addition because it actually lets travelers encounter Moroccan culture firsthand -- something Peace Corps volunteers get to do when living in a country but the average traveler has little luck doing. I'll be honest, balloon rides and rafting are great, but they're not necessarily distinctive to Morocco or Moroccan culture -- indeed, the average Moroccan has never been ballooning or white water rafting! So I'm going to replace the listing and I'm happy to have a discussion about it. --[[User:Spmenic|Spmenic]] 14:47, 25 June 2010 (EDT) 14:46, 25 June 2010 (EDT)

Revision as of 19:08, 5 September 2010

This article was the Collaboration of the week between 11 July and 17 July 2007.


Contents

Opinions and Comments from an Anonymous User

Watch out for tourist touts that offer to take you to the medievil dye pits!

1. They are not really worth the visit (unlike the excellent dye pits in Fez)

2. The touts work in pairs. The first takes you to the dye pit (which you could probably manage with a map) and then introduces you to his "friend" to guide you round the pits. The BOTH expect to be paid, and are prepared to follow you incessantly for a very long time if you do not give them enough money.

The main night market is definitely worth a visit, and the food is priced on menues so no hastle there. But the best food we ate there was in a little back street near the museum where a guy was frying fish. Ended going back there twice.

(moved by Nils 09:30, 13 Apr 2004 (EDT))

Advice for dealing with touts....

Smile! - shake their hand and politely say no thank you!

Works every time.

In addition, if someone decides to walk with you and you do not want to pay any money to them then, as soon as you meet them, tell them that you will not be giving them money.

With regards to giving money... If the person has actually performed a service for you that you found helpful, then a tip is definitely in order! - it would be rude not to do it!

Deletions by anonymous user

Just noticed that the entries for Riad Dar Mimouna and Riad Kalila have been deleted by anonymous. Any particular reason for this? I don't know the hotels concerned, but their web sites seem to be running OK.

If this was done in error, or if there's no response from anonymous, I'll revert the changes in a couple of weeks.

- Michaelp

(Footnote 30 July 2006: No response, so I've now added the hotel details back in from a previous diff, but left all other changes intact).

Bargaining

I may be wrong, but Bargaining section looks to be better moved from Marrakech to How to haggle except Morocco-specific stuff which should go to Morocco#Shopping. In my experience, haggling in Marrakech is nothing different from Essouria or Ourzazate--and is likely the same in the rest of the country. --DenisYurkin 18:09, 9 November 2006 (EST)

content from http://elcuerpodecristo.com.ar

Dear 81.192.252.191, is content at http://elcuerpodecristo.com.ar/wiki/Marrakech only created by yourself? Otherwise, do you have a written permission to use its content at Wikitravel? Is its license compatible with Wikitraveller's? If not, we are not allowed to use their content. --DenisYurkin 13:35, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Sorry for the (2months) delay. The content was created by me, yes. We had a really good time there :) --Runa 15:25, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

Hotel Riad Mogador

Warning to all travellers who think they are going to have a wonderful romantic break in Marrakech. We were told our hotel was close to the Market sqr. - it was if you call a 2 mile walk through a very dodgy bus station to start with then streets and streets of nothing but gangs of men peeing in ornamental gardens at the same time pointing you in the wrong direction and wanting money from you for the pleasure. Even our rep (who wasn't that interested) said don't walk back at night its not the best area!!! As for the hotel itself, what was that smell? The corridors and stairwells smelt of dead and decaying fish. We got to our room and the door had been broken into and instead of being offered a different room we were shown how to wiggle it locked. Once inside it was clean and tidy but not 3* by any standard, open the windows and the noise and smell of the bus station and the locals fighting ( we saw one man get glassed in the face because he deicided not to get on the illigal bus and wanted his money back) really made us feel welcome. I have travelled to many places often on my own, and have never felt so unwelcome or unsafe even with my husband as I did in Marrakesh. All I can say is I can strike it of my list of places I want to visit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.5.62.26 (talkcontribs)

Re: Airline prices in the article

Perhaps its a little bit inappropriate to have such specific price guidance in the article, especially as these things can often change. Maybe we can have something like, budget airlines offer competitive rates on several routes, such as those operated between... and ... by....

Any thoughts?

Yoga Entry

The entry on yoga in the Do section provides no information for travelers to actually find a place offering yoga. Furthermore, after living three years just outside of Marrakech, I am quite sure that it is no more of an international yoga center than cities like New York, London, or Paris (none of which mention yoga on their pages). It seems terribly out of place, and if no one objects I'll remove it soon. Spmenic 22:57, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Okay, I'm going to remove it. Spmenic 13:00, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Text in an entry being chopped off lately, why?

Following a number of changes that were made to the original text for Riad Mur Akush, I originally thought that it was a competitor who was trying to start a “war”. The text kept getting chopped more and more and after I spend a couple of hours trying to see what was going on... Ah!! I realised it was not a competitor after all (for which I am very relieved as I am not into “wars” myself..): It was the administrator!

Dear Administrator, can you please give me some hints as to why the text was modified so much and maybe let me know what the criteria are for the text? I would like to improve the text from its current state to similar of the other entries but I do not want to step on anyone's toes. Grateful for your reply. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 78.150.19.39 (talkcontribs)

Listings as a rule should not have descriptions of more than 3-4 sentences. Also, please read carefully Wikitravel:Don't tout. --Peter Talk 05:00, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
I think that would be me. We are planning to feature this on the front page, and we need the sleep section not looking like an advertising brochure and more like a guidebook, before we can do so - don't worry, will get to your competitors too in good time. And as Peter said, don't tout is a good place to start. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:03, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

GetOut: duplicates GetIn

I wonder why we need "By plane" / "By train" / "By bus" in GetOut. Normally we put all such info into GetIn. Does Marrakech have a special reason not to do so? --DenisYurkin 04:00, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

Just attemped to fix it myself: [1]. --DenisYurkin 16:06, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

removed details on Riad Zara

I've reverted removal of most of the details on Riad Zara for the following reasons:

  • how rich/poor is choice for breakfast is a criteria for some travelers
  • asking for help in getting in is really important, as it's quite difficult to find without help, especially if you never experienced medinas at all
  • candles and wine around the pool tells much about the experience you can expect in the riad--better than more objective facts that were left in the description.

--DenisYurkin 16:08, 2 October 2009 (EDT)

Fair enough, was doing a round of all the hotels, since we are likely to feature this soon. And I really don't like promotional language on articles we highlight. Of course this can be objective, so I guess it's all fine - I would like to add, that I deleted the paragraph, not because it was "un-factual" but because it was added by the hotel owner, I love personal descriptions like this of our hotels, I just don't trust hotel owners own fancy concepts. One thing though, if asking for directions is critical in the Medina, it should be noted in a introduction, not in the description of each and every Riad, so I re-reverted that part :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 16:46, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
This specific review was originally added by myself, and I don't remember it was ever edited by the owner. And I restored the piece on asking directions, now in introduction (I'm sure you were going to do that, just missed this piece :-) ). --DenisYurkin 17:18, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
Whoops, two slaps on the wrist for me. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:38, 2 October 2009 (EDT)

Why were the Tours in the Do section wiped clean on October 1?

Can someone please state the criteria for deleting listings in the Tours section? The prior listings were fairly recognized groups, and the ones that are included now are not necessarily more "Marrakech" than the ones that were deleted on October 1st. If there is a policy, please state it clearly. One could easily get the impression that the deletions were commercially motivated. If you are going to include one tour company that offers treks, 4x4, and Sahara excursions.....then why were all the others deleted? Many of those listings have been on the page for some time, and many were added by wikitravel contributors (myself included). --Spmenic 07:11, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

I suggest you have a look at the relevant policy and also guidelines on touting. If after that you think some of the deleted tour listings meet the bar then reinstate them and others can then have an opinion.--Burmesedays 07:24, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for the link; I've read over the policies. What I don't understand is why some listings were deleted and others not, when they seem to offer the same "value-added activity." In any case, I'm restoring the listing that I have personal experience with. I can't speak for all of them.--Spmenic 07:35, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

I've removed the "Tour" section from this article entirely - it's not clear that any of the listed operators met the criteria outlined in Tour, most of the listed tours were for sights outside of Marrakech, and the section was becoming a magnet for spammy edits. -- Ryan • (talk) • 12:06, 5 September 2010 (EDT)

I disagree with you here, though I do agree that like hotel, restaurant, and attraction listings, these tour listings can attract spam. I think deleting the entire section, however, is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water -- to use a cliché. I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Marrakech (I lived just outside the city for three years), but it is a normal part of a tourist visit to Marrakech to take day trips or even an overnight trip while still basically "based" in Marrakech -- especially out to the desert or the Atlas mountains. After looking over the Article Template section concerning "Get Out," I think that these "day-trip" tours might better be placed there. You are right to say that they are not properly in Marrakech, but I think removing them completely ignores how so many tourists spend a week in Marrakech -- splitting time between the city and one or two day excursions around it, all while based in Marrakech. As a second point, I think we need to have some type of better defined criteria for tour listings than what currently exists. You mentioned that it wasn't clear to you that the former listings met the criteria, but I can assure you that at least some of them did (see my post below). I agree that perhaps every tour doesn't meet the grade, but I don't think we are very helpful to travellers if we have no listings whatsoever for any day trips into the desert or Atlas mountains -- this is Marrakech after all! Perhaps we could set up some criteria that make it easier to tell the good from the bad: 1) can the activity be completed in a day? (or two?) 2) does it start and end in Marrakech, or at least provide transport that picks you up and drops you off in Marrakech? 3) is the activity one that is normally "based" out of Marrakech? 4) finally...and perhaps most importantly...is there a long-time Wikitravel contributor (not just an owner) who has experienced it, has pictures of it, can vouch for it, and can vouch that it constitutes a "value-added" activity that a normal traveller couldn't do on his/her own? I think these discussion pages are too under-utilized, and perhaps we need to have a discussion when there is move to add (or remove) a listing (or set of listings) so that we maintain the community aspect of the wiki. On that note, I think Ryan makes a fair point about the listings not being part of Marrakech proper, but according to the Article Template they rightly belong in the "Get out" section. I'm going to restore the previous listings before the latest spam to that section and perhaps moving forward we can have a discussion about particular listings when someone wants to add/delete. Spmenic 15:04, 5 September 2010 (EDT)

Deleted Tour Listings

I'm still not sure (see entry directly above) of the criteria for deleting a tour listing that very clearly adds a value-added activity according to the relevant policy. It isn't a tout because I am the one who added it years ago after living in Morocco for three years as a Peace Corps volunteer and now living back in the U.S. as a high school teacher. I think it is a particularly valuable addition because it actually lets travelers encounter Moroccan culture firsthand -- something Peace Corps volunteers get to do when living in a country but the average traveler has little luck doing. I'll be honest, balloon rides and rafting are great, but they're not necessarily distinctive to Morocco or Moroccan culture -- indeed, the average Moroccan has never been ballooning or white water rafting! So I'm going to replace the listing and I'm happy to have a discussion about it. --Spmenic 14:47, 25 June 2010 (EDT) 14:46, 25 June 2010 (EDT)

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