move from Talk:Main Page by Evan
OK, so, I gotta make some comments on the new new Main Page layout:
- It looks really good. Nice work, Dhum Dhum.
- Did Dhum Dhum update the page? It was done by an anonymous user, but it's nearly identical with User:Dhum Dhum/Main page. I find it hard to believe that he'd go through 10+ changes without noticing he was logged in. Doesn't really matter, but...
- I don't like dealing with heavily-tablized pages. I'm going to have to steel myself to edit this from now on.
- It's really spaced out, and there's a lot of screen real estate that's dead. Like all the space around List of countries... couldn't that be tightened up some?
- I think I mentioned Jakob Nielsen before... anyways, one of his principles is that people don't scroll. So, it's important to put important nav stuff up in the first half of a page, if it scrolls at all. I'd love to tighten up some of the dead space on this screen to make it not scroll.
- I think we could get away with moving the destinations section off to a directory-style page. That would free up a lot of real estate.
- It might be worthwhile to go over Nielsen's Home Page Design Guidelines.
OK, that's my deux sous. -- Evan 08:19, 22 Nov 2003 (PST)
- What a surprise to see my draft version of the main page as the actual main page. Evan, here are my answers to your questions (my numbers correspond to yours).
- Well, thanks Evan...
- No, I didn't update the page. As you say, it was done by an anonymous user, so I started investigating. I looked at User:18.104.22.168's contributions and I found that he had written the last entry on Talk:Maramures and the Mountains Tour. Even if he was not logged in he signed with User:Ronline. So, discarding the possibility that some other user signs as Ronline, there's a high probability that it's him.
- We've had a short discussion about that on User talk:Dhum Dhum/Main page. I respected your point of view and I still do.
- I agree, but I think we should keep this important link on the main page. See point 6 for more.
- I agree again.
- One of the things I didn't like was exactly this. To me, the destinations section is just a list of countries. There's no particular reason to keep them on the main page.
- I haven't done so, but I'll surely will in the next few days.
- Something extra: as I said before, I was surprised to see my experiment surface as the actual main page. I was even more surprised that there had been no discussion about it. I do think that a radical change of such an important page needs to be discussed beforehand (and maybe now is the time...). As a side note I'd also like to mention that User talk:Dhum Dhum/Main page has also been changed (albeit slightly). I thought it was a tacit convention that user pages and their subpages are normally not changed by other users.
DhDh 14:58, 22 Nov 2003 (PST)
- Yes - it was me who updated the page with the tables. I didn't log in due to the my automatic login being disabled (I'm changing that now ;-) I think the page with the tables is so much better, but it's really good that you guys are discussing potential improvements! -- Ronline, 23 Nov 2003
- I do like this main page much more than the old one. It's simply more lucid. Btw, what should be bad with the tables? The main page isn't something that the "HTML-have-not"s need to edit. And even lynx can handle tables quite well. So, there shouldn't occure problems with poor browsers. -- Hansm 10:01, 2003 Nov 23 (PST)
- I am an HTML have-not, and I need to edit the page. I find the table-based layout hard to edit and update. It doesn't use markup sections, so I can't edit one section of the page at a time. I have to navigate through lots of td's and tr's and br's just to find the section I need to add a link to. We're a Wiki site, we should use Wiki markup. Formatting shouldn't be my problem -- it should be the Wiki engine's problem. My problem should be content. Anyways, the whole thing incented me to add Wikitravel:Avoid HTML. -- Evan 11:28, 23 Nov 2003 (PST)
- OK, than I understand the problem. At the end, it will remain the admin's decision. Anyway, I like the new look. -- Hansm 06:47, 2003 Nov 24 (PST)
- Well, I have a bit of a "double" feeling towards the new main page.
- On the one hand, I can't deny that this page looks better than the one before. The main page is often one of the first pages a Wikitravel visitor will see. So, apart from the content that should draw their attention, we might as well have something that looks nice too.
- On the other hand I feel quite uncomfortable with the way this has happened: no discussion, no consencus, just one user who made the change. I'm still convinced that radically changing an important page like this one needs to be discussed properly beforehand.
- The fact is that if we do want the main page to have a nice table format with colours, we just have to use HTML for now. At present, I see no other way. I don't know much about HTML either. Everything I've learned comes from tables in Wikipedia. That's also where I got the idea for creating User:Dhum Dhum/Main page.
- So, why don't we build a bridge between those so-called HTML-haves and HTML-have nots. I made Main page/test, where we can test things out and try to make a page that both looks good and is not too difficult to edit. That should be possible, no? I started with copying what I have in my user space at this moment. Anyone who's interested? But keep in mind: it should be nice and simple at the same time. DhDh 11:51, 24 Nov 2003 (PST)
So, I just filed a RFE against MediaWiki in SourceForge asking for a table markup language. Turns out there already is an undocumented one, which will be in the next stable release. Looks like we'll have a Wikimarkup table-based Main Page sooner rather than later... --Evan 18:57, 28 Nov 2003 (PST)